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View Full Version : So, uh...was the Droid Factory line discontinued?



Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-03-2013, 04:07 PM
JediNews posted a report (http://www.jedinews.co.uk/news/news.aspx?newsID=9823) detailing the new lines coming soon to Target via their DCPI numbers and prices. The only new things are the Class I vehicles ($19.99), Class II vehicles ($19.99), and limited-articulation 12" figures ($12.99). Of note, though, is this:

STAR WARS DROID FACTORY FIGS
087-06-1380 $9.99
Discontinued
There were rumors that this would be the case - either the line would be shifted to be better timed to the 3D rereleases of AOTC and ROTS in Fall, or that the figures would be released in some other way. This could be a computer issue, but that seems doubtful. It would be unfortunate if they weren't doing the Droid Factory pieces at all since those are my favorite pack-ins. Hopefully there will be news from Toy Fair next month.

bigbarada
01-03-2013, 04:37 PM
Personally, I hope so. But that's based solely on the figure choices for the first 2 waves, not that I have anything against the build-a-droid concept in and of itself (I simply prefer Vintage).

mtriv73
01-03-2013, 05:55 PM
Maybe they'll just be selling under the same DCPI as the Vintage figures since they were carried forward unexpectedly. This kind of makes sense since they wouldn't have to clearance everything out in between switching card backs. I wouldn't be surprised if they were delayed (and temporarily replaced with the vintage repacks), but I really hope they weren't cancelled.

figrin bran
01-03-2013, 08:16 PM
In our thread about the TVC rereleases, I speculated about the droid factory waves getting pushed back.

I'm confident that the tooling for those figures won't go to waste and we'll get them eventually in some form.

In the meantime, I guess I have more money for SW Lego sets now.

Tycho
01-04-2013, 02:47 PM
I don't think I cared too much. I wanted more YVH-1 droids if any, though I think I had some cool ideas back in the day.*

Droid Factory was one of my favorite concepts though and my signature still relates some parts I need and have to trade.

I haven't gotten to actively pursuing that for several years though.

Meanwhile, my hobby is getting rare, obscure figures to fill out my dioramas like:

TPM: Kitster / Wald, Ann / Tan Gella
AOTC: Queen Jamilla, Cliegg Lars
ROTS: Bail Organa Senate, Padme Amidala Senate
ANH: Tzzzvvvt, Ranat
ESB: Torryn Farr, white R5 droid with black head originally in Hoth exclusive box set*
ROTJ: Sim Aloo (Imp Dignitary), Taym-den Garn (spelling)
EU: Nomi Sunrider, Sylvar
CW: Riff Tamsen, Wagtwo, Nute Gunray, Anaconda Far, Chancellor Palpatine, Bail Organa, new Padme Senator

And much more.

Plus vehicles:

TPM: Gungan Sub, Republic cruiser
AOTC: Accalamator Class star destroyer, Dooku's solar sailor
ROTS: Utopau sentry ship, Wookiee catamaran
ANH: Rebel blockade runner, Lars landspeeder
ESB: Imperial star destroyer, Rebel medical frigate, Hoth probot delivery ship
ROTJ: Jabba's sailbarge, Home One (or playset with briefing room and landing bay)
EU: Nebulon Ranger, K-wing Bomber, Corral Skipper
CW: Twilight, Hondo's tank, Hondo's flying saucer - fighter size (Rapier-One), Jedi angel fish style transport

and beasts:

TPM: Sando Aqua Monster
AOTC: orray
ROTS: Utopau pteradactyl
ANH: dianoga
ESB: Dagobah swamp snake
ROTJ: sarlaac (full scale)
EU: Onderon flying war beast, Yuuzhan Vong "shaped" vornskr Force hound
CW: Zillo beast, Ziro the Hutt

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-04-2013, 03:24 PM
Rebelscum followed up (http://www.rebelscum.com/story/front/Hasbro_Confirms_Droid_Factory_Canceled_149638.asp) and got this quote from Hasbro:

"...the Droid Factory has been Globally dropped. Some of the figures however will be used in other assortments this fall."

Very strange.

JediTricks
01-04-2013, 03:32 PM
RS is reporting this is confirmed, Droid Factory will not be happening, the line "dropped globally" is what they're quoting Hasbro as saying, and that SOME of the figures will be used in a Fall line. This is ludicrous, this is beyond unacceptable, coming off of 2 years of trouble only to pull a limp "holding pattern" move and canceling product YET AGAIN suggests a severe mismanagement of resources and interest. I keep wanting to give Hasbro the benefit of the doubt, but lately they've done a lot of damage and it's become unbearable. There is now nothing new for the first 8 months of 2013 at all, no new Clone Wars, no new Realistic, no new Vehicles, what is left? How is this not the brand walking face-first into a spinning turbine a la 1985 again? Hope for the future? Trying to stretch existing product to hold retailers' pegs for what basically is 3 years total what with the huge distribution gaps in TVC now spreading from 2010 into late 2013?

I don't even know what to say, this just ruined my day.

El Chuxter
01-05-2013, 01:14 AM
Wow.

Well.... I suppose this will be more money to spend on the later Retaliation figures that everyone wants but will only be available through online merchants and scalpers because the pegs will be flooded with that stupid Wave 1 Roadblock.

Tycho
01-05-2013, 02:26 AM
I'm buying new business suits and otherwise updating my wardrobe, buying new guns and reenactor accessories, and traveling more for more baseball and rock concert shows, and spending more money on my friends. I don't have to "keep up" with collecting. But actually almost all my money can go towards my novel writing and editing and conferences to get published by a large house. That will afford me more money for the other things later. I still have plenty of interest in Star Wars but welcome the break. I also listed the obscure products I would care for above, like variant Bail Organa figures. So I have other interests besides toys.

Snowtrooper
01-05-2013, 12:32 PM
Looks like I'll be spending my money on prop replicas. What a train wreck this whole situation has become.

Bel-Cam Jos
01-06-2013, 06:33 PM
At least Disney's SW comics will tide us over until... [whisper, whisper] Really? That TOO?

JediTricks
01-06-2013, 10:44 PM
That one still has me dubious, 2 more years to ramp up some pulp books? C'mon. Just hire some artists to re-draw classic Marvel scripts if you got nothing else. I dunno.

I think I'll be spending money on frames for my McQuarrie art.

El Chuxter
01-06-2013, 11:18 PM
Marvel is less a publishing house than an IP warehouse now. Truth is, I suspect both Disney and Warner own their comic companies entirely for the library of characters and don't want to publish funny books since they're relatively less profitable. When Disney bought Marvel, all licensed Disney books went to Marvel and died within months, even successful, critically-acclaimed stuff like Muppets.

JediTricks
01-07-2013, 11:04 PM
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/content.php/1317-Hasbro-Star-Wars-Droid-Factory-Line-Canceled

Steve posted the official word on this, the line is canned due to cost increases, the droid parts while intending to be a value-adder would have apparently caused a price increase. IMO, Hasbro's overhead is too high or they aren't being competitive enough with manufacturing and need to get the heck out of China and either into other Asian countries or perhaps Mexico (Mexican manufacturing has a vastly sliding quality scale based entirely on price, but the thing is you can get more bang for your buck when you're saving so much on shipping). Honestly though, I think upper management at Hasbro needs to take a look at why the company overhead is where it is, fir example they won't even make a product if it doesn't look like it'll make X percent back because management needs to be paid for, and there are policies in place that are outmoded like high minimum unit sales keeping smaller retailers from direct purchases.


Marvel is less a publishing house than an IP warehouse now. Truth is, I suspect both Disney and Warner own their comic companies entirely for the library of characters and don't want to publish funny books since they're relatively less profitable. When Disney bought Marvel, all licensed Disney books went to Marvel and died within months, even successful, critically-acclaimed stuff like Muppets.I saw you mention that in the article comments. However, Marvel's management is autonomous from Disney still, so it's not about Disney owning them, if they dropped the ball it's on Marvel's shoulders.

bigbarada
01-08-2013, 04:32 PM
I kind of wonder if the 2012 TVC sales figures were so much lower than what Hasbro projected, that this is just the first step of them abandoning the collector's line altogether. Maybe they've decided that we're just too high maintenance and not worth their time anymore.

Although, I don't see how they could expect last year's sales to be anything but disappointing when a big chunk of the figures scheduled for release in 2012 spent most of the year rotting in a warehouse.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-08-2013, 06:26 PM
I kind of wonder if the 2012 TVC sales figures were so much lower than what Hasbro projected, that this is just the first step of them abandoning the collector's line altogether. Maybe they've decided that we're just too high maintenance and not worth their time anymore.

Although, I don't see how they could expect last year's sales to be anything but disappointing when a big chunk of the figures scheduled for release in 2012 spent most of the year rotting in a warehouse.
I don't think it's that malicious on Hasbro's part. I believe that it really does have to do with cost issues - as JT said, something along the line needs to be changed so that this doesn't keep happening. They're still going to be pushing 2012's backstock out to retailers, so I guess that's the collector-focused line as it exists for now.

It's easy to forget that there weren't always three different basic figure lines. From 1995 to 2005, there was only ever one all-encompassing line that included figures meant for collectors, figures meant for kids, and repacks. Occasionally there were sublines (and obviously the look was refreshed every 12-18 months), but this fractured line didn't really start until the separate greatest hits lines started appearing in 2006 to keep top sellers on shelves. (Were those shipped separately? I don't even remember, but I thought that they were on the same pegs as the regular line.) I guess you could say the either-or approach started with VOTC in 2004, but that was kept as a limited line. I wonder how they'll handle the next three films, since this approach to the main line wasn't developed until after the ROTS line was done. Frankly I would like to see a return to something similar to the TAC line - refreshes to main characters and plenty of background characters, and not every single character needed 14 expensive points of articulation so they were able to do interesting accessories as well.

Tycho
01-09-2013, 03:13 AM
I liked what JabbaJohnL said above.

I was thinking that in terms of OT (only) Star Wars, I now have almost every figure I always wanted - and nearly all the updates.

I'd buy a Blue Snaggletoothe that was single-carded.

I want Sim Aloo (original Imp dignitary)

I'd buy a few more Waroks if he were single-carded or with a never-before-made-Ewok.

There's a cool variant version of Luke Dagobah I've suggested and would buy.

But as a kid,I wanted Han Stormtrooper, Tarkin, Piett, Wedge, the bartender, Ephont Mon, Leia Slave. Much of it's been done. The OT collector market must have really shrunk.

The Ranat, Tzzzvvzzt, the Defel, a carded Garven Dreis, and a new mustached Bespin Guard etc. could all get me excited, but I'm not buying resculpts though the new kids don't have any version of some characters like Ponda Baba. So I understand.

It's time to move on but keep your eye on your hobby for items you love, just don't expect a delivery every month or even every quarter. They can sell Darth Vader. I'm not buying.

There are still plenty of PT and Expanded Universe and Clone Wars (animated style) they could sell me on, as well as new ships / large vehicles.

If not, it's not like SW is my only thing (or toy purchasing for that matter). I have a lot of other things I'm interested in. But I'm not going to sell what I have! I'm going to appreciate it!

JediTricks
01-09-2013, 04:11 PM
I kind of wonder if the 2012 TVC sales figures were so much lower than what Hasbro projected, that this is just the first step of them abandoning the collector's line altogether. Maybe they've decided that we're just too high maintenance and not worth their time anymore.

Although, I don't see how they could expect last year's sales to be anything but disappointing when a big chunk of the figures scheduled for release in 2012 spent most of the year rotting in a warehouse.They aren't abandoning collectors, collectors' passion drives the variety and creation of new molds, both are attractive to casual consumers just not in the ravenous needs of the hardcore collector. Hasbro always said that TVC was meant to get the hardcore collector base to re-engage with the brand, the idea that they'd simply abandon that altogether is very unlikely. The problem is that they permanently lost a lot of hardcore collectors after the prequels, the economic hits in manufacturing and materials prices wiped out more audience, and then Hasbro hedged their bets on collectors coming back by further splitting their buying audiences and lost.

Your point about product rotting in a warehouse is almost dead on, except Hasbro doesn't have warehouses anymore, they sold them off during the restructuring after the 2000 crash from TPM nearly killing the company, so in the 2012 case what happened is they put all this money into cutting new tools and then the big retailers didn't order much product from those tools. So it basically rotted in a theoretical warehouse in this case, same problem - money spent and not seeing return - but now not even any product to sell off to liquidators for return (although also no tax burdens from old unsold product sitting for over a year).



I don't think it's that malicious on Hasbro's part. I believe that it really does have to do with cost issues - as JT said, something along the line needs to be changed so that this doesn't keep happening. They're still going to be pushing 2012's backstock out to retailers, so I guess that's the collector-focused line as it exists for now.

It's easy to forget that there weren't always three different basic figure lines. From 1995 to 2005, there was only ever one all-encompassing line that included figures meant for collectors, figures meant for kids, and repacks. Occasionally there were sublines (and obviously the look was refreshed every 12-18 months), but this fractured line didn't really start until the separate greatest hits lines started appearing in 2006 to keep top sellers on shelves. (Were those shipped separately? I don't even remember, but I thought that they were on the same pegs as the regular line.) I guess you could say the either-or approach started with VOTC in 2004, but that was kept as a limited line. I wonder how they'll handle the next three films, since this approach to the main line wasn't developed until after the ROTS line was done. Frankly I would like to see a return to something similar to the TAC line - refreshes to main characters and plenty of background characters, and not every single character needed 14 expensive points of articulation so they were able to do interesting accessories as well.Certainly there's no malice on Hasbro's part, they are a business entity and trying their best to make business decisions that do well by the company and the brand. Some of it probably is management stumbles (buying into Lucasfilm's overhyping TPM 3D was a massive error), it happens, to err is human, and some of it is undoubtedly cost issues.

In '96, Hasbro ran 2 lines, POTF2 and SOTE - SOTE did pretty poorly and eventually liquidated out (there were a lot of left-over Xizors and Snoova figures).
In '98, Hasbro ran 2 lines, POTF2 and Expanded Universe - EU did ok at first then petered out to slow orders and eventually hit liquidation as well. Those were both separate SKUs meant to focus more on collector-interested product, and just like we're seeing today, both of those didn't fare well.
'03 saw a pair of Star Wars lines - Clone Wars and Clone Wars animated, both of which bombed hard and clearanced out, but didn't go to liquidation.
'04 saw a separate SKU for Hall of Fame, those I don't remember how they did but I do remember buying several on clearance. VOTC doesn't really count because that wasn't taking away from the mainline SKU, it was taking away from the deluxe SKU - supplanting it, really.
In '05, the OTC line spewed out a second SKU for Post-OTC, and that short-run didn't fare well with retailers who simply didn't want a limited product line taking up a whole second set of pegs, so that led to low orders, transitioning into ROTS' single mainline.
'06 saw 4 SKUs on pegs although only 3 were active, ROTS was wrapping up, TSC was going, and then TSC had 2 other basic lines - Ep 3 Greatest Hits and Ep 3 Heroes & Villains, both different SKUs from TSC - and this is where things get tricky. The idea behind those Ep 3 re-releases was to keep and capture casual consumers - kids who were still familiar with the movie but who weren't really into the depth and breadth of the brand. The idea is an extension of Hall of Fame but taken to the next level.
'07 is where Hasbro made a total philosophical shift, putting 2 active SKUs out in roughly even amounts, creating the Saga Legends SKU where they took tooling that they felt was fairly modern but not currently active and made it available to appeal to a casual consumer, shifting the mainline to a more hardcore colector-only focus. From day 1, our Q&A asked them whether this was bound to create a schism that would undermine the foundation of both lines - Hasbro said no, but then sales showed otherwise and pricing started going up as the brand, some would argue, started cannibalizing its own sales.
'08 saw 3 active SKUs that were meant to run in parallel but with new content support in the form of The Clone Wars tv show, so there was Legacy Collection, TCW, and Saga Legends SKUs all running at the same time as basics. TCW ran hot for a while, Saga Legends was like printing money for a while because it was existing quality molds that kids were looking to find but couldn't in the regular mainline, and the regular mainline was uneven due to distribution issues. That business model eventually led to the mainline driving away collectors in droves as they couldn't find new product and stores couldn't satisfactorily stock due to serious pegwarming problems. Eventually Hasbro tried to recapture the hardcore collectors via TVC but intentionally lowered volume and raised prices to match, yet even there they played an odd game of hedging the casual consumer interest in a hardcore line which led to a number of first-wave pegwarmers choking the line, and now here we are.

In looking that whole thing over, something which hadn't occurred to me before shows up, Hasbro's splitting the brand into "collectors vs casual" consumers did create a schism, splitting the market interests out of a single SKU seems to have raised costs on the casual lines instead of saved the hardcore collector line until now there's a higher waterline and everybody's paying through the nose. Did Saga Legends and TVC bring the Hasbro SW brand to its budgetary knees by cannibalizing sales away to Saga Legends and Movie Heroes? When you factor in all the outside economic issues, I think there may be some truth there, but only Hasbro has the numbers to be sure.

El Chuxter
01-09-2013, 06:45 PM
Oh, no, it's malice. Hasbro would rather lose money than make collectors happy. :D

Tycho
01-10-2013, 04:21 AM
I have several questions for JT:

1998 - also saw Collections 1, 2 and 3. Remember the color codes at the bottom of the cards? They did this for the Ep 1 glut as well.

But Luke Bespin was Coll. 1, Ewoks were Coll. 2 with Biggs, Lak Sivrak, etc., and Coll 3 had Vader R.H., Piett, Ishi Tibb etc. (Freeze Frames).

I might recall 1997 doing this as well.

1999 certainly did with Qui-Gon (Coll 1), Panaka (Coll 2), and Ki-Adi (Coll 3).

My Question was were they just different assortments? Not different Skus? It might have worked better if they were different Skus.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2007 (TAC)

On the controversy about Saga Legends and TAC figures (the latter being more collector based with some great figures!)

JT said:

"From day 1, our Q&A asked them whether this was bound to create a schism that would undermine the foundation of both lines - Hasbro said no, but then sales showed otherwise and pricing started going up as the brand, some would argue, started cannibalizing its own sales. "

Could you explain please? I think Saga Legends allowed kids to get General Greivous whenever they felt the urge, (or similar staple characters) and folks like me go crazy over Elis Helrot and Myoom Onith, not to mention Biggs Academy and a lot of great McQuarrie options, Padme black leather temptation - I mean there were great collector figures and space wasn't wasted in the case assortments with General Grievous and Mace Windu who never look any different.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I've now read the concluding theory. I would say I could agree.

I honestly never look at the Saga Lengends / Movie Heroes stuff so I don't even know if they are a lower pricepoint at retail. I guess they are? Unfortunately, if I didn't notice the numbers, they couldn't be more than a dollar or so off the VTC.

In theory, if the price difference was even "worse," such that Legends were $5.99 and the VTC $8.99, this would make sales of VTC even worse?

Following up on that, "including Darth Vader, Luke Tatooine, "same-old-same-old PT Jedi figures," all in the case with my greatly yearned for Sim Aloo (Imp Dignitary) and Nyrat Agira (Outlander Club hottie) would make the cases pass through better than having "my figures" in a separate line geared towards the hardcore folks like myself?"

And I don't give a darn what they do to General Grievous or Mace Windu next - I will never buy more figures of these characters or Darth Vader and Tatooine Luke for that matter. So would just recarding the ideal molds for these characters not be better than wasting materials improving them (like better legs Han Solo) when the money could be spent producing Taym-den Garen or Sgt. Doallyn?
Then put them in the same case and I can still ignore Darth Vader.

Maybe all Hasbro has to do is rotate Vader in an out of case revisions under the same sku to keep him available to new fans?

bigbarada
01-10-2013, 12:03 PM
They aren't abandoning collectors, collectors' passion drives the variety and creation of new molds, both are attractive to casual consumers just not in the ravenous needs of the hardcore collector. Hasbro always said that TVC was meant to get the hardcore collector base to re-engage with the brand, the idea that they'd simply abandon that altogether is very unlikely. The problem is that they permanently lost a lot of hardcore collectors after the prequels, the economic hits in manufacturing and materials prices wiped out more audience, and then Hasbro hedged their bets on collectors coming back by further splitting their buying audiences and lost.

Your point about product rotting in a warehouse is almost dead on, except Hasbro doesn't have warehouses anymore, they sold them off during the restructuring after the 2000 crash from TPM nearly killing the company, so in the 2012 case what happened is they put all this money into cutting new tools and then the big retailers didn't order much product from those tools. So it basically rotted in a theoretical warehouse in this case, same problem - money spent and not seeing return - but now not even any product to sell off to liquidators for return (although also no tax burdens from old unsold product sitting for over a year).


Certainly there's no malice on Hasbro's part, they are a business entity and trying their best to make business decisions that do well by the company and the brand. Some of it probably is management stumbles (buying into Lucasfilm's overhyping TPM 3D was a massive error), it happens, to err is human, and some of it is undoubtedly cost issues.

In '96, Hasbro ran 2 lines, POTF2 and SOTE - SOTE did pretty poorly and eventually liquidated out (there were a lot of left-over Xizors and Snoova figures).
In '98, Hasbro ran 2 lines, POTF2 and Expanded Universe - EU did ok at first then petered out to slow orders and eventually hit liquidation as well. Those were both separate SKUs meant to focus more on collector-interested product, and just like we're seeing today, both of those didn't fare well.
'03 saw a pair of Star Wars lines - Clone Wars and Clone Wars animated, both of which bombed hard and clearanced out, but didn't go to liquidation.
'04 saw a separate SKU for Hall of Fame, those I don't remember how they did but I do remember buying several on clearance. VOTC doesn't really count because that wasn't taking away from the mainline SKU, it was taking away from the deluxe SKU - supplanting it, really.
In '05, the OTC line spewed out a second SKU for Post-OTC, and that short-run didn't fare well with retailers who simply didn't want a limited product line taking up a whole second set of pegs, so that led to low orders, transitioning into ROTS' single mainline.
'06 saw 4 SKUs on pegs although only 3 were active, ROTS was wrapping up, TSC was going, and then TSC had 2 other basic lines - Ep 3 Greatest Hits and Ep 3 Heroes & Villains, both different SKUs from TSC - and this is where things get tricky. The idea behind those Ep 3 re-releases was to keep and capture casual consumers - kids who were still familiar with the movie but who weren't really into the depth and breadth of the brand. The idea is an extension of Hall of Fame but taken to the next level.
'07 is where Hasbro made a total philosophical shift, putting 2 active SKUs out in roughly even amounts, creating the Saga Legends SKU where they took tooling that they felt was fairly modern but not currently active and made it available to appeal to a casual consumer, shifting the mainline to a more hardcore colector-only focus. From day 1, our Q&A asked them whether this was bound to create a schism that would undermine the foundation of both lines - Hasbro said no, but then sales showed otherwise and pricing started going up as the brand, some would argue, started cannibalizing its own sales.
'08 saw 3 active SKUs that were meant to run in parallel but with new content support in the form of The Clone Wars tv show, so there was Legacy Collection, TCW, and Saga Legends SKUs all running at the same time as basics. TCW ran hot for a while, Saga Legends was like printing money for a while because it was existing quality molds that kids were looking to find but couldn't in the regular mainline, and the regular mainline was uneven due to distribution issues. That business model eventually led to the mainline driving away collectors in droves as they couldn't find new product and stores couldn't satisfactorily stock due to serious pegwarming problems. Eventually Hasbro tried to recapture the hardcore collectors via TVC but intentionally lowered volume and raised prices to match, yet even there they played an odd game of hedging the casual consumer interest in a hardcore line which led to a number of first-wave pegwarmers choking the line, and now here we are.

In looking that whole thing over, something which hadn't occurred to me before shows up, Hasbro's splitting the brand into "collectors vs casual" consumers did create a schism, splitting the market interests out of a single SKU seems to have raised costs on the casual lines instead of saved the hardcore collector line until now there's a higher waterline and everybody's paying through the nose. Did Saga Legends and TVC bring the Hasbro SW brand to its budgetary knees by cannibalizing sales away to Saga Legends and Movie Heroes? When you factor in all the outside economic issues, I think there may be some truth there, but only Hasbro has the numbers to be sure.

Y'know, I probably learn more from reading your posts than just about anything else on the internet. Thanks for the info! :cool:

I didn't know that about Hasbro and their warehouses. When I worked at Walmart I tried to learn as much about the retail chain as I could, so I know that the usual system is that manufacturers sell to warehouses and those warehouses sell to retailers, who sell to us.

So what was the reason that Hasbro did away with their warehouses? Was it just to reduce costs by eliminating a middle-man?

EDIT: I just thought of this, but wouldn't the 1999 POTF2 "Commtech" figures be another example of Hasbro splitting the line? I remember that line pegwarming pretty hard, because I was able to find about 20 of those Commtech Stormtroopers rotting on the pegs at $2 each back in 2001.

JediTricks
01-10-2013, 06:14 PM
Oh, no, it's malice. Hasbro would rather lose money than make collectors happy. :DWith passions running so high these days, I don't even like to make jokes like that, people read that and take it too seriously. A lot of folks have big misconceptions about Hasbro and the brand management, they don't make it to conventions and they don't scour the 5.5 years of Q&A so a lot of made up stuff and conspiracy theories fill the holes of what they don't know when they're frustrated. They expect that Hasbro has their act together enough to do them harm, but somehow don't consider that if Hasbro had their act together that well they would rather do business than fail, but that theory doesn't involve the damage collectors feel done to their person so it's not as popular.



Y'know, I probably learn more from reading your posts than just about anything else on the internet. Thanks for the info! :cool:

I didn't know that about Hasbro and their warehouses. When I worked at Walmart I tried to learn as much about the retail chain as I could, so I know that the usual system is that manufacturers sell to warehouses and those warehouses sell to retailers, who sell to us.

So what was the reason that Hasbro did away with their warehouses? Was it just to reduce costs by eliminating a middle-man?

EDIT: I just thought of this, but wouldn't the 1999 POTF2 "Commtech" figures be another example of Hasbro splitting the line? I remember that line pegwarming pretty hard, because I was able to find about 20 of those Commtech Stormtroopers rotting on the pegs at $2 each back in 2001.Thanks BB, I'm glad to hear that.

This is all "IIRC", obviously. In the '80s and '90s, Hasbro had 4 very large warehouses between the US and China, and whenever they'd manufacture more than orders bought, they'd just drop product into the warehouse assuming they could sell it later, that demand would somehow come back around eventually. They owned these warehouses, there was never a middleman between Hasbro and their retailers like that, they were manufacturer and wholesale distributor, so the warehouses were just holding their wares awaiting new demand from retailers.

Operating warehouses for long-term has 2 significant problems: one is obviously paying for organization and upkeep of said warehouses, not to mention that a warehouse is a finite resource but the company keeps producing (and overproducing) inventory which has to be kept somewhere. The other is that US tax law says that old unsold product sitting on warehouse shelves after a year is now a drain on sales tax income so it becomes a taxable item - finished inventory over a year old generates tax burden on the owner. These warehouses were holdings that weren't generating profits, only usurping them.

So it was an effort to reduce costs, but not by eliminating a middleman, instead it was by eliminating warehouse operating costs and tax burdens, streamlining operations by doing away with valueless stockpiling of product that will never have demand again.

As for POTF2 Commtech, you are exactly correct that those were a separate SKU (and different from past POTF2 SKUs), stores had unsold original POTF2 products from older SKUs and now they were being told to sweep that out to make room for Ep 1 and the new POTF2 commtech line, but why would stores have faith in POTF2 commtech when it didn't have a new movie with a mountain of hype driving it, as well as being largely the same characters that just got swept off shelves from not selling in the 1998 expressions? So they stocked in cautious numbers for POTF2 and massive numbers for Ep 1 which quickly pushed the line out, causing big retailers to halt orders. Hasbro however had already manufactured much more POTF2 Commtech product and no major retailers would touch them so what did they do? Shoved it into a warehouse assuming someone would want them again eventually. The reason we saw them for $2 a pop in 2001 wasn't because of pegwarming, it was because the warehouses had been liquidated - TRU made a deal with Hasbro to buy up a lot of old Star Wars very very cheaply, so they were selling the AT-AT for around $20 despite the $75 product having not been on their shelves for years, they had bins of Hasbro '90s figures for $2 each simply because they knew at those prices they'd move - TRU would make a pittance of profit through the volume and Hasbro either saw no profit or even heavy losses, but those one-time losses were something more valuable than keeping warehouses full of old unselling product around.



I have several questions for JT:

1998 - also saw Collections 1, 2 and 3. Remember the color codes at the bottom of the cards? They did this for the Ep 1 glut as well.

But Luke Bespin was Coll. 1, Ewoks were Coll. 2 with Biggs, Lak Sivrak, etc., and Coll 3 had Vader R.H., Piett, Ishi Tibb etc. (Freeze Frames).

I might recall 1997 doing this as well.

1999 certainly did with Qui-Gon (Coll 1), Panaka (Coll 2), and Ki-Adi (Coll 3).

My Question was were they just different assortments? Not different Skus? It might have worked better if they were different Skus.With POTF2 starting in 1997, there were the various collections as you mentioned, and they were all different assortment numbers, "different SKUs". The Shadows of the Empire line is the same assortment number as POTF2 Collection 2, so technically SOTE was the same SKU as the whole of POTF2 (and this did continue into the Ep 1 line). All of them are different assortments, the intention was twofold as I remember it, on the collector side the different collections were intended to promote different interests - Collection 1 was more main character focus, Collection 2 was aliens and such, and Collection 3 was I think villains, or something. It got screwy pretty fast, I remember the old POTF2-era Hasbro Star Wars site's Q&A in the '90s talking about this a few times, commenting on how they messed up and put characters into wrong collections and even moved collections.

On the business side, the multiple running SKUs were meant to change the product pacing so that they could get less overlap while moving more product throughout the year. Retailers would be less inclined to re-order product they already had enough saturation on when they could spread out their minimum orders across multiple Star Wars SKUs.

For most of the time, those different collection SKUs were meant to share pegspace, but during SOTE and again with EU and in '99 with POTF2 Commetch they were meant to separate pegspace, so it was a complicated situation where the concept of an SKU doesn't quite convey the right idea, sometimes the SKU was a true assortment under one line (the 3 collections) and others it was an overarching line the way it is now (commtech, SOTE, EU).


In 2007 (TAC)

On the controversy about Saga Legends and TAC figures (the latter being more collector based with some great figures!)

JT said:

"From day 1, our Q&A asked them whether this was bound to create a schism that would undermine the foundation of both lines - Hasbro said no, but then sales showed otherwise and pricing started going up as the brand, some would argue, started cannibalizing its own sales. "

Could you explain please? I think Saga Legends allowed kids to get General Greivous whenever they felt the urge, (or similar staple characters) and folks like me go crazy over Elis Helrot and Myoom Onith, not to mention Biggs Academy and a lot of great McQuarrie options, Padme black leather temptation - I mean there were great collector figures and space wasn't wasted in the case assortments with General Grievous and Mace Windu who never look any different.After TPM's flameout in 2000, Hasbro still ran multiple SKUs for a single line, POTJ had 2 collections and each had its own SKU that was unclear - Lando and Amidala were Collection 2 along with most of the aliens and background guys, while Aurra Sing was collection 1 along with Luke and Maul and such, and the line's 2 Leia figures were in different collections. So the SKUs were meant to work together as a single line better, the collections still separated the mass-appeal characters into one category and less-appeal characters into others but it wasn't as solid, it was done more to keep a one-two punch on retailer ordering. So POTJ was running 2 assortments/SKUs under its brand but they were trying to work together, and then Saga 1 continued this trend of running a single line both discretely but also discreetly ("discrete" meaning seperate SKUs, while "discreet" meaning hiding that they were separate SKUs in one line).

Each line was really trying to promote a singular experience, there was some subtle behind-the-scenes social engineering intended but it was meant to be subtle, a kid would not be shown a divided Star Wars brand where one expression appealed to kids and another appealed to collectors, it was meant to look to that kid (the kid standing in for any casual consumer) as "Star Wars" where Darth Vaders they wanted were in the same line as Ketwols that the collectors wanted, the idea being that the kid or especially a kid's parent might come to the pegs to buy a Vader but see Ketwol and buy it too since they "go together" from being in the same brand. In that way, being one line sold the Star Wars experience to kids aka "casual consumers" and collectors at once.

Eventually, the behind-the-scenes social engineering got cocky and decided it should be up front. Hasbro felt that the idea of "Greatest Hits" was working so well in small tries that they went bigger with it, and created an entire seperate SKU just for Greatest Hits-type figures called "Saga Legends" which was intended to have its own separate pegspace and appeal primarily to the kid/casual consumer audience, the packaging would look very similar to the main line but it was also visually separate and planned to peg separately. This was obviously a very successful concept since Greatest Hits figures are generally popular characters with broad appeal so they'll sell well, and they're also toolings that have long since been paid off by prior sales, so they have much lower costs to the brand. The influx of funds from Saga Legends could help balance the brand's books, making riskier main line 30th Anniversary Collection figures that wouldn't see as strong of a return due to their collector-oriented focus a lighter impact on the brand's budget.

In simplified terms, think of the brand before Saga Legends being a single path, the consumers - both casual and hardcore - being a mob of people all walking down that path. Saga Legends however created a fork in that path, one that intentionally separated the consumers into 2 distinct groups that walked 2 distinct paths the whole experience was becoming a "Y" shape - Saga Legends consumers going one way and Legacy Collection consumers going the other. That's the schism we said was happening, Hasbro created a second audience with a divergent path that was wandering off to the left while the other audience went off to the right. The casual consumers are a larger group so the left path is full of people, yet the hardcore consumers on the path to the right drive the brand to be more diverse and speak with a more rounded voice.

Why would retailers want to focus on a smaller group when they're seeing easier sales from the larger group? Retailers aren't terribly good at focusing on the longterm benefits here, they just want sales to keep trending for the immediate future. Casual consumers no longer have a strong draw to cross over sales from Saga Legends to Legacy Collection, so Hasbro's move may ultimately cannibalized sales away from Legacy Collection to Saga Legends, one Star Wars line was suffering because the audience was being drawn away to another Star Wars line. The hardcore group is ultimately what's pushing Hasbro to create higher quality products that aren't just the same handful of guys over and over again, which fuels new quality molds for the other group, with those sales lagging it eventually catches up to the casual group as we're seeing now - there's a downward spiral at play where Saga Legends products are taking away consumers from the main lines. That's the schism.


OK, I've now read the concluding theory. I would say I could agree.

I honestly never look at the Saga Lengends / Movie Heroes stuff so I don't even know if they are a lower pricepoint at retail. I guess they are? Unfortunately, if I didn't notice the numbers, they couldn't be more than a dollar or so off the VTC.

In theory, if the price difference was even "worse," such that Legends were $5.99 and the VTC $8.99, this would make sales of VTC even worse?

Following up on that, "including Darth Vader, Luke Tatooine, "same-old-same-old PT Jedi figures," all in the case with my greatly yearned for Sim Aloo (Imp Dignitary) and Nyrat Agira (Outlander Club hottie) would make the cases pass through better than having "my figures" in a separate line geared towards the hardcore folks like myself?"

And I don't give a darn what they do to General Grievous or Mace Windu next - I will never buy more figures of these characters or Darth Vader and Tatooine Luke for that matter. So would just recarding the ideal molds for these characters not be better than wasting materials improving them (like better legs Han Solo) when the money could be spent producing Taym-den Garen or Sgt. Doallyn?
Then put them in the same case and I can still ignore Darth Vader.

Maybe all Hasbro has to do is rotate Vader in an out of case revisions under the same sku to keep him available to new fans?Saga Legends were $6 while TAC prices were $7, SL prices had no startup costs of creating molds to suffer so it could generating pure profit instead of having to pay down startup costs so it was able to keep its price low at first. Of course, charging a whole buck less than the main line further drew buyers away from the main line to SL, why wouldn't it? Eventually Hasbro saw the problem and raised SL to match the main line price which kept pace through to the end of TLC. That was really important to do because The Clone Wars line was also intended to focus on casual consumers and did have startup costs for new tooling on each figure, so you couldn't have 2 casual-focused lines costing different, they realized that would cannibalize sales away from TCW.

But then with Hasbro recognizing that the hardcore collector-focused main line had lost its way and needed to regain its hardcore-collector audience, they chose to make a line that further diverged the brands by creating The Vintage Collection which focused more on the hardcore and sacrificed production volume to do so, but at the cost of raising the price a dollar more than the Saga Legends and TCW (and in second year of TVC the price went up again, so the difference was now $2 from TVC to SL & TCW), which again drove a deeper wedge between the 2 consumer audiences.

Movie Heroes being the successor to Saga Legends was intended to simplify the interests further of that casual audience but eventually the casual consumer audience finally started showing saturation, so where Movie Heroes and TCW started $2 less than TVC in the 2012 launch, they simply weren't generating the same sales as previous casual consumer lines had been, and I think what's happened is that as Hasbro's costs went up through materials and manufacturing, the lagging sales of the MH/TCW lines forced them to quickly jump up, first a buck and now two, even three at Target, while TVC basically found its level and stayed unchanged.

So, in your question of whether an even greater price difference would drive a further wedge in the brand, the answer is yes, but as we've seen with MH/TCW it'll also self-destruct quicker. I think if the price difference from TVC to MH were $3, it'd bother collectors significantly and drive them away more, which would leave TVC vulnerable to collapse. MH however would lose the drive that comes from running TVC-type lines, the drive to make better figures, and losing that would cause it to stagnate faster with its casual kid audience.

Let's now toss out discussion of The Clone Wars as it's become a wildcard in the last 2 seasons and I don't know what Hasbro's going to do with it.

Just putting major characters into the cases isn't enough, the brand I think needs to go back to a single expression which puts the 2 consumer groups - casual and hardcore - back onto the same path. I don't think just jamming a main character into a case is enough, Hasbro never stopped doing that with TVC to the point where the line had far too many old molds collectors didn't need to see again so soon merely because Hasbro thought seeing them on vintage-style cardbacks would be enough to move them. Were I to be directly advise Hasbro on this matter, I'd suggest that they intentionally create scarcity of low-level characters. Had Yarna and Breha Organa not been in every case of their wave, that would have created demand for those figures to a point where even consumers who didn't really want them would be interested in looking for them, they'd go through pegs just to see if something rare was there, and this keeps the product in rotation longer by simply stretching out when it'll hit. This is essentially the Hot Wheels business model, but the problem with this plan is that retailers like to know when they'll see product and they want to know that they will see replacement waves on a fairly quick schedule which is more difficult with a $10 toy than it is with a $1 toy. Don't flood the market with too many Vaders at once, plan it so there's about 3/4s as many Vaders as the market wants but keep rotating the figure back in there so consumers on both sides keep coming back looking for - and more importantly finding - rewards to their hunts. When kids are looking through racks for their guys and come across our guys, maybe those kids will find appeal in our guys, but not when there's a flood of them. When we were kids, everybody wanted Jordache jeans because they were a brand that was a big name but they were a product that was not everywhere, in the '90s they overbranded and now Jordache jeans are sold as cheaply at places like Kmart so nobody is hungering for them anymore, they are a name brand nobody cares about.

Creating ideal versions of a Mace Windu is important, but now Hasbro's redefining ideal: there's collector-ideal which is super-articulated and high paint apps; and kid-ideal which is visually recognizable but simplified to be easier to play with quickly. If that sounds like another place for a schism to develop when collectors drop interesting in kid-ideal figures and kids don't want 2 of the same character, you'd be right, and that shows why the line is in trouble or at least at a crossroads waiting for management to decide which path to take.

El Chuxter
01-10-2013, 09:01 PM
Point taken. All the Hasbro people I've encountered on the actual action figure teams have clearly been passionate about what they do, and want to put forth toys that reflect their best work and make everyone happy. There's a bit of a disconnect between them and the penny counters, though, it seems.

I do, personally, think, though, that they might be better served in not constantly resculpting figures, but only doing it when necessary, and rotating the existing figures onto whatever the current card design might be. It seems like it would save a ton in design and tooling costs.

Tycho
01-11-2013, 04:18 AM
Thank you JT for thoroughly answering my questions and others' - a lot of effort! Good job and many more thanks. You sounded like Darryl. Did he answer that "off the record?"

Chux, I agree with you (above).

Now a comment: I already think the darn Movie Heroes or whatever the "junk line" is that's shipping now is almost just that. Junk. That Yoda figure with part of his robe packaged separately looks just awful - and it's Yoda! That line is mostly prequel characters that sit. I've noticed the few and far-between OT characters included in that set sell pretty fast. I see the occasional Luke Snowspeeder every now and then. Leia is totally absent from that collection as may be Han Solo (I think). Lando's not there. But I think the Death Squad Commander (Imp Navy Trooper) is shipping now. That's a good choice and a better quality figure than those Super Battle Droids (I think). But then again, I bought so many battle droids of all types for my dioramas, that I'm sick of seeing them, but I guess even those army builders sell.

They've come back with light-up lightsaber gimmicks for Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Vader. I think if they made Maul with his double-blades, that would be a popular light-up figure. Then you could run with a few Luke outfits, and the age progression for Anakin and Obi-Wan from AOTC to ROTS and ANH for Obi-Wan. Mace would be interesting due to the purple saber. I strongly believe that Plo Koon and SaeSee Tiin are saturated and they should remain scarce for a while. (I don't know what it is with Plo Koon fans - they're making Boba Fett fans look normal - and I even like Fett better now because I have Plo Koon to complain about). A light-up Kit Fisto might sell, but he's a risk.

I think they could try EU expressions with light-up sabers, but fan favorites like Mara Jade, Jaina Solo (new outfit please), and Jacen, Anakin, Leia training to be a Jedi and Luke as a Master might go over alright. EU for collectors and a cool gimmick for kids. But the figure parts should be such that replacing an arm or something would allow for the non-electronic versions of those characters so Jaina could have an "un-lit" lightsaber in her new outfit expression (like how would you put her pilot figure in an X-wing with a lit saber?)

I don't know if that's an idea worth trying? And I don't mean to get carried away with it. It's not the right way to bring out Nomi Sunrider.

JediTricks
01-11-2013, 11:12 PM
Point taken. All the Hasbro people I've encountered on the actual action figure teams have clearly been passionate about what they do, and want to put forth toys that reflect their best work and make everyone happy. There's a bit of a disconnect between them and the penny counters, though, it seems.First off, I've met a few team members at cons that aren't as passionate as the rest of the team, but I'd agree with you that the majority of the team in person have been clearly passionate about what they do.

As for the "disconnect" point, it's complicated. Derryl as brand manager (and now I guess Jeff) are technically penny counters, it's their job as brand managers to think exactly about those issues, to balance the bean counting against the creative and emotional aspects of the brand.


I do, personally, think, though, that they might be better served in not constantly resculpting figures, but only doing it when necessary, and rotating the existing figures onto whatever the current card design might be. It seems like it would save a ton in design and tooling costs.That complaint is very outdated IMO. Aside from Luke ROTJ who just seems to suffer at each new release's outing, I can't think of a character that's getting "constantly resculpted". We keep getting different expressions of characters like Vader that most of the time don't use a resculpt and suffer for using such an outdated mold, the latest resculpt got top nods from both JabbaJohn and me in the YIR. We still don't have a quality resculpt of Farmboy Luke or Leia ANH or Han ANH or Lando ESB. This isn't 1983, re-releasing the same figure 5 years in a row doesn't even work for the kiddies anymore - look at Movie Heroes now suffering awful molds and not moving product as fast as before.




Thank you JT for thoroughly answering my questions and others' - a lot of effort! Good job and many more thanks. You sounded like Darryl. Did he answer that "off the record?"Sure thing. No, he didn't, I want to clarify for readers, although I'm confident you forumites all know this, but my post is merely educated conjecture on my part, just paying attention to the interviews and Q&As, looking at trends and applying past events to current problems.


Chux, I agree with you (above).

Now a comment: I already think the darn Movie Heroes or whatever the "junk line" is that's shipping now is almost just that. Junk. That Yoda figure with part of his robe packaged separately looks just awful - and it's Yoda! That line is mostly prequel characters that sit. I've noticed the few and far-between OT characters included in that set sell pretty fast. I see the occasional Luke Snowspeeder every now and then. Leia is totally absent from that collection as may be Han Solo (I think). Lando's not there. But I think the Death Squad Commander (Imp Navy Trooper) is shipping now. That's a good choice and a better quality figure than those Super Battle Droids (I think). But then again, I bought so many battle droids of all types for my dioramas, that I'm sick of seeing them, but I guess even those army builders sell. Movie Heroes was a big step down from Saga Legends in terms of quality, that Yoda they put out is among their worst figures of the last 8 years, and is missing the accessory that sets off the spinning gimmick to boot. These weren't fun figures when they came out, they were the lesser figures to satiate demand from the movie but they weren't home runs any of them, and almost 3/4s of the run is from ROTS which has run pretty stale the last few years with buyers - kids have shown they're reaching saturation on Jedi Starfighters and Phase 2 Clones and battlin' Yodas and long-hair Anakins. It's like someone is looking at decisions from Saga Legends 3 years ago and is trying to expand and simplify based on that.


They've come back with light-up lightsaber gimmicks for Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Vader. I think if they made Maul with his double-blades, that would be a popular light-up figure. Then you could run with a few Luke outfits, and the age progression for Anakin and Obi-Wan from AOTC to ROTS and ANH for Obi-Wan. Mace would be interesting due to the purple saber. I strongly believe that Plo Koon and SaeSee Tiin are saturated and they should remain scarce for a while. (I don't know what it is with Plo Koon fans - they're making Boba Fett fans look normal - and I even like Fett better now because I have Plo Koon to complain about). A light-up Kit Fisto might sell, but he's a risk.

I think they could try EU expressions with light-up sabers, but fan favorites like Mara Jade, Jaina Solo (new outfit please), and Jacen, Anakin, Leia training to be a Jedi and Luke as a Master might go over alright. EU for collectors and a cool gimmick for kids. But the figure parts should be such that replacing an arm or something would allow for the non-electronic versions of those characters so Jaina could have an "un-lit" lightsaber in her new outfit expression (like how would you put her pilot figure in an X-wing with a lit saber?)

I don't know if that's an idea worth trying? And I don't mean to get carried away with it. It's not the right way to bring out Nomi Sunrider.There's no way to change the battieres, what's the point of collector-focused figures that have to be thrown away in a few years when their batteries stop working and leak out the waist joints? Kids have literally zero interest in those EU characters because they have no exposure to them. As well, changing the arm from a hollow piece with wires running into the torso into a modular connector would be pretty expensive and probably fragile at this scale. Adds up to a wrong turn IMO.

bigbarada
01-12-2013, 12:30 PM
I want to clarify for readers, although I'm confident you forumites all know this, but my post is merely educated conjecture on my part, just paying attention to the interviews and Q&As, looking at trends and applying past events to current problems.

What? You mean you examine the facts objectively and then form a logical conclusion based on those facts? You do realize you're on the internet, right? That's just not how we do things here.

:D

Seriously, the whole rational discussion thing is a nice change of pace from the "Hasbro Hate Parade" that seems to be steamrolling every other Star Wars fan site right now. I don't even know why I bother with those other sites anymore... probably more out of habit than anything else.

JediTricks
01-12-2013, 09:42 PM
What? You mean you examine the facts objectively and then form a logical conclusion based on those facts? You do realize you're on the internet, right? That's just not how we do things here.

:DI know, I've embarrassed myself forever with that move, paying my penance will require leaving thoughtless nasty comments on 50 Yahoo News articles, and watching a dozen cat videos on Youtube. ;)


Seriously, the whole rational discussion thing is a nice change of pace from the "Hasbro Hate Parade" that seems to be steamrolling every other Star Wars fan site right now. I don't even know why I bother with those other sites anymore... probably more out of habit than anything else.Variety, I'm sure. We're now a smaller-knit group. But vitriol won't change the facts, we can either analyze them and try to learn from them, or stomp our feet and feel bad - neither will change the current situation though, but one is just ugly so it makes more sense to help think it over, get a real engaged dialogue going.

Maradona
01-13-2013, 12:55 AM
What's additionally intriguing is that this marks the second year in a row that Hasbro postpones a line. They postponed the GIJoe line last year. That was for a different reason, but I'm sure many people on both sides of the metaphorical toy aisle are upset by this development.

Tycho
01-13-2013, 04:59 AM
There's no way to change the battieres, what's the point of collector-focused figures that have to be thrown away in a few years when their batteries stop working and leak out the waist joints? Kids have literally zero interest in those EU characters because they have no exposure to them. As well, changing the arm from a hollow piece with wires running into the torso into a modular connector would be pretty expensive and probably fragile at this scale. Adds up to a wrong turn IMO.

Yeah. You're right. I think trying to make a line that's kid popular AND a collector staple stocked with cheap movie release product - even making cheap movie release product in the first place -like a spinning Yoda or quick-draw clone is or at least should be - beneath this line.

Do kids say "the figures don't DO anything?" Maybe they do, hence the action features. I still remember Obi-Wan Acklay Attack that makes him spank his monkey when he's not holding that spear. Tragic.


As for the "disconnect" point, it's complicated. Derryl as brand manager (and now I guess Jeff) are technically penny counters, it's their job as brand managers to think exactly about those issues, to balance the bean counting against the creative and emotional aspects of the brand.

Yes, but Darryl is a proven, real fan. He's WHY I have Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun figures, for which I'm grateful even if I'm pursuing Nomi Sunrider and Sylvar, amongst others from that series. I feel Darryl is more of a fan than even many here, as we both as passionate about Star Wars as far as the EU. Without looking it up, how many here can explain who Warb Null was and who he worked for? I'm probably right about my low estimate and those that don't know or don't care are indeed missing out on something.

Concerning resculpts:

That complaint is very outdated IMO. Aside from Luke ROTJ who just seems to suffer at each new release's outing, I can't think of a character that's getting "constantly resculpted". We keep getting different expressions of characters like Vader that most of the time don't use a resculpt and suffer for using such an outdated mold, the latest resculpt got top nods from both JabbaJohn and me in the YIR. We still don't have a quality resculpt of Farmboy Luke or Leia ANH or Han ANH or Lando ESB. This isn't 1983, re-releasing the same figure 5 years in a row doesn't even work for the kiddies anymore - look at Movie Heroes now suffering awful molds and not moving product as fast as before.

Vader - I never even LOOKED at him. I passed him up on the pegs today - without a look. He is a vintage 12-back style front though. Noticed the card. I assume there was a figure of Vader in the blister. Heck if I cared though.

Farmboy Luke - I think my favorite was Purchase of the Droids pack-in. I really could care less. Sell him if it keeps the line shipping and a new outfit of Jaina Solo is packed in the case. Put Jaina in the new movie, and step up featuring her in comics. (She has a huge amount of appearences in the novels which can continue as far as I'm concerned. She's doing something new in each one. Farmboy Luke just goes to the cantina and runs around the Death Star every single time I encounter him.)

Leia ANH bores me the same way. ANH Han has some new books (Scoundrels) and potential scene uses with new characters. But an older version (in his 60's) paired with new figures of Droma and the Yuuzhan Vong would be more interesting to me. I'm betting he might have kept those clothes for 30 more years anyway.

I don't need any Lando but him in new red or tan outfits from his appearances in the EU. The smugglers outfit for TAC was the last Lando figure I got really excited about.

Now I agree with JT that releasing the same figure 5 years in a row (like Movie Heroes / Legends / Hall of Fame etc) doesn't work - but that might partially also be to adults not buying in that market. Newbies always would. Because someone just born when the Hall of Fame figures came out would not be "ages 4 and up" to own the figures until the Movie Heroes line came out.

But if I'd needed any re-carded figures, I most likely would have been done buying them back in the Hall of Fame days. (And I don't think I ever needed them then).

Now if Ephont Mon or Tessek were re-released (since I'd rather have Sgt. Doallyn and Taym-dren Garen from Jabba's), I bet the same sculpts of Ephant Mon and Tessek would sell regardless of whether Hasbro could improve them today. They're selling the same 2005 crappy Yoda! (Or they had sold enough of him to make them decide to keep shipping him for a while).

El Chuxter
01-13-2013, 10:41 AM
I never bothered to look at Vader, either. He'd have to get up in the morning and make my coffee for me to get me to consider a new Vader figure.


That was for a different reason, but I'm sure many people on both sides of the metaphorical toy aisle are upset by this development.
Then there's you and me, who straddle the aisle and are doubly ticked-off! :)

JediTricks
01-13-2013, 04:00 PM
What's additionally intriguing is that this marks the second year in a row that Hasbro postpones a line. They postponed the GIJoe line last year. That was for a different reason, but I'm sure many people on both sides of the metaphorical toy aisle are upset by this development.Good point, but actually it's the third year in a row! 2011 they canned the first Transformers Prime line after retailers showed low interest. So it goes:
2011: Transformers Prime v1
2012: GI Joe Retaliation
2013: Star Wars Build a Droid
Meanwhile, a pulsing, throbbing, unselling, massive wall of Amazing Spider-man movie figures from Hasbro rots at every retailer. Hasbro's Marvel division better watch out for 2014 (unless they got a pull in 2010 I don't remember). Seems like Hasbro cannot keep afloat this way.


I never bothered to look at Vader, either. He'd have to get up in the morning and make my coffee for me to get me to consider a new Vader figure.And thus you miss out on a very good figure because Hasbro abused you with too many reuses of Vader on old bodies. Yet even with this new one, we still could use another of this quality in ESB/ROTJ getup (and a better ANH head for the one we have, but that's really asking too much I guess). I think putting Vader on the same Vader card was a huge mistake anyway, it looks like the 2010 version that way.

You know how many Artoos we have designed accurately from the movie model? ONE. Just the recent Sail Barge model, that's it, the rest were just winging it, it took that long to actually go and measure things and apply that knowledge to the toys. And now there's a lot of collectors like you who pass it up because they've been burned out by so many previous molds.

Maradona
01-14-2013, 12:35 AM
Good point, but actually it's the third year in a row! 2011 they canned the first Transformers Prime line after retailers showed low interest. So it goes:
2011: Transformers Prime v1
2012: GI Joe Retaliation
2013: Star Wars Build a Droid
Meanwhile, a pulsing, throbbing, unselling, massive wall of Amazing Spider-man movie figures from Hasbro rots at every retailer. Hasbro's Marvel division better watch out for 2014 (unless they got a pull in 2010 I don't remember). Seems like Hasbro cannot keep afloat this way.


I'd forgotten about TF Prime. Hasbro seems to over produce for every movie based line. Rows and rows of movie figures spoil each year and are destined for liquidation. IM3 and Thor 2 (and maybe Wolverine?) this year and Cap 2 and GotG (and maybe X-Men) for 2014.

JetsAndHeels
01-22-2013, 10:41 AM
This is a very interesting thread. I appreciate all the information that has been posted here.

I will say this about Hasbro cancelling certain lines...at least they put the Transformers Prime First Edition toys back in stores. I think the backlash from fans and collectors was enough to make Hasbro do a double take and give in to what people wanted. I never thought I would get my hands on those voyager figures, but it finally happened.

Is there any chance that something like that could happen with Star Wars? Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I would love
to see some new product on the shelves to get excited about again.

JediTricks
01-24-2013, 03:36 PM
This is a very interesting thread. I appreciate all the information that has been posted here.

I will say this about Hasbro cancelling certain lines...at least they put the Transformers Prime First Edition toys back in stores. I think the backlash from fans and collectors was enough to make Hasbro do a double take and give in to what people wanted. I never thought I would get my hands on those voyager figures, but it finally happened.

Is there any chance that something like that could happen with Star Wars? Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I would love
to see some new product on the shelves to get excited about again.We got most of the TF Prime FE stuff, but not all. And like that, Hasbro will be getting most of the TLC2 figures into the later line, but again maybe not all.

El Chuxter
01-24-2013, 03:46 PM
On the subject of semi-canceled stuff that was impossibly hard-to-find making it into later lines, I'd like Kwinn, Shadow Tracker, and Crazylegs to show up in the Retaliation line. They're at least tossing the Crimson Guard and Night Viper in (and already included Renegades Zartan, as well as Cobra and Joe army builders who bear no resemblance to anything anyone knows of from the movie), so why not a few more "Joe EU" figures?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-24-2013, 07:49 PM
Just for reference, these are the figures that were planned to be released in this line:

Wave 1
*Anakin Skywalker (AOTC)
*Padmé Amidala (Geonosis Arena)
*R2-D2
*Luminara Unduli
*Pablo-Jill
*Biker Scout
*TIE Fighter Pilot (Backstabber)
*Clone Trooper Sergeant
*Sandtrooper (black pauldron)
*Battle Droid (Geonosis)
*Geonosian Warrior
*Clone Trooper (212th Attack Battalion)
*TC-70 - Build-A-Droid
*FA-4 Pilot Droid - Build-A-Droid

Wave 2
*Mace Windu (The Clone Wars)
*Captain Rex
*Luke Skywalker (Yavin Ceremony)
*Mara Jade Skywalker
*Darth Vader (Bespin)
*Biggs Darklighter
*A-wing Pilot
*Clone Pilot (AOTC)
*R8-B7 - Build-A-Droid
*R5-X2 - Build-A-Droid

I won't cry if the many, many army builders don't make it out, though I assume they will at some point since they're easy. In the first wave, it seemed that only Anakin, Padmé, Luminara, Pablo-Jill, and FA-4 had any new tooling at all, and the rest were all repaints. In the second wave, Rex, Biggs, and the A-wing Pilot were all existing bodies with new heads, and the AOTC pilot was an existing figure with a new helmet. Mace, Luke, and Mara were probably mostly all-new, and I'm not sure on Vader. I also didn't really care for the thought of rebuying so many TCW droids in realistic style now, but I do want FA-4 and R5-X2. We also would have gotten four uses of the TVC clone trooper mold in these waves, which is kind of nuts.

Tycho
01-24-2013, 07:55 PM
Well no real loss to me EXCEPT the ONE figure I'd buy MULITPLES of from that list:

A new Mara Jade Skywalker if that was the figure to be done in her green Jedi robes. (I won't buy new/improved versions of her in the blue jumpsuit - don't need them.)

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-24-2013, 07:55 PM
Well no real loss to me EXCEPT the ONE figure I'd buy MULITPLES of from that list:

A new Mara Jade Skywalker if that was the figure to be done in her green Jedi robes. (I won't buy new/improved versions of her in the blue jumpsuit - don't need them.)
I've updated the post since you responded, but it was revealed at CVI that Mara was to be the catsuit version (and I assume she's still coming).

JediTricks
01-24-2013, 08:22 PM
Kinda overstuffed those waves, here's my thoughts...

Wave 1:

Anakin Skywalker (AOTC) - depends on quality, if likeness is good and costume is accurate I could see getting this
Padmé Amidala (Geonosis Arena) - ditto really.
R2-D2 - I seem to remember seeing this as a new one, and I'm generally a sucker for that.
Luminara Unduli - zero interest.
Pablo-Jill - very low interest at best.
Biker Scout - definitely, especially with a better deco than the one in the set.
TIE Fighter Pilot
(Backstabber) - mild interest, it feels like there's been a stream in the background of this figure so it's hard to get excited over yet another one.
Clone Trooper Sergeant - kinda don't care anymore.
Sandtrooper (black pauldron) - depends on updates, but I don't think I cared that much, too soon after the one we just got.
Battle Droid (Geonosis) - mild interest, would buy on sale but not sure I'd bother full price.
Geonosian Warrior - depends on the mold, but at best only moderate interest.
Clone Trooper (212th Attack Battalion) - depends on which body and if they got the color right finally, could be great interest or low.
TC-70 - Build-A-Droid - bleh, I don't like this CW design.
FA-4 Pilot Droid - Build-A-Droid - I want to say I'm not interested, but the truth is there was some moderate interest.

Who puts 13 figures in a wave (plus 2 BADs)? That's more than a case can hold! No wonder it seems stuffed. I doubt this was all 1 wave. No wonder it was a budget-buster! Shouldn't have aimed so damned high, 6 figures plus 1 BAD would have sold just as well.

Wave 2:



Mace Windu (The Clone Wars) - Total pass, what were they thinking? CW Anakin isn't selling on pegs that well, and Amazon clearanced out Obi-Wan and Ahsoka. Just wait for demand, don't drop a lameo on us like that.
Captain Rex - somewhat interested, wanted to see execution first.
Luke Skywalker (Yavin Ceremony) - 4th time's a charm? Kinda not interested at all after the TAC one.
Mara Jade Skywalker - very interested even if it's the wrong outfit, the sculpt looked much nicer than the Comic version we last got.
Darth Vader (Bespin) - I have no idea, maybe very interested if it's a good new sculpt based on the ANH figure, maybe total disinterest if it was using a VOTC-derived middling sculpt.
Biggs Darklighter - what, are they trying to reproduce that TAC wave? Total disinterest, even if that figure had crappy arm articulation the guy is barely in the film, don't need 3 separate pilot versions of him.
A-wing Pilot - depends on if this is or isn't an accurate sculpt, if it's still the Tycho Celchu-derived mold that's a pass for inaccuracy, but moderate interest if it's a new and more accurate sculpt.
Clone Pilot (AOTC) - didn't we just get this guy not that long ago? Maybe not, but it feels like it. Would have to be a big improvement to get another purchase out of me, so that's low interest.
R8-B7 - Build-A-Droid - SO LAME! No interest, a real R8 droid would be cool but not this lameo we saw for 1 episode arc in Clone Wars.
R5-X2 - Build-A-Droid - modest interest, just because another red R5 isn't high up my interest list compared to another color


8 figures (plus 2 BAD) in wave 2, again, too many figures for this kind of wave, too much of a budget-strain when there's a lot of figures from TVC that could have been recarded with duplicate BAD parts instead.

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-24-2013, 09:14 PM
Who puts 13 figures in a wave (plus 2 BADs)? That's more than a case can hold! No wonder it seems stuffed. I doubt this was all 1 wave. No wonder it was a budget-buster! Shouldn't have aimed so damned high, 6 figures plus 1 BAD would have sold just as well.
No, there were supposed to be 12 - you put "TIE Fighter Pilot" and "Backstabber" on two separate lines.

R2-D2 looked to me like a clean repaint of the 2007 version based on the R4-G9 mold, which I've wanted for a while now since the only other AOTC/ROTS booster rocket figure was the abysmal 2003 joke.

The Geonosian Warrior was a repaint of Sun Fac, though I'm not sure how different it was going to be from the handful of repaints the mold has already had.

Vader looked like he was based on the Evolutions mold yet again, as seen in this image from the CVI panel (http://photos.sirstevesguide.com/after-panel-reveals-hi-res/p45000-hasbro-star-wars.html).

The A-wing Pilot looked like the Tycho body yet again.

There's an AOTC clone pilot out right now with the 2013 Republic Assault Dropship, but it's the 2005 Evolutions sculpt. I'm pretty sure the last time they released one (well, two) was in the battle pack with the gunship pod in 2009, but there hasn't been a single-carded version since the original in 2002.

JediTricks
01-24-2013, 09:48 PM
No, there were supposed to be 12 - you put "TIE Fighter Pilot" and "Backstabber" on two separate lines.Weird, I copy-pasted your list. Still, a dozen figures is unnecessary for a new wave, they tried that with TVC and it backfired hard.


R2-D2 looked to me like a clean repaint of the 2007 version based on the R4-G9 mold, which I've wanted for a while now since the only other AOTC/ROTS booster rocket figure was the abysmal 2003 joke.Oh, notable disinterest for me then. Any pre-2011 mold is going to look bad in my collection compared to the ROTJ figure they finally took accurate measurements on.


The Geonosian Warrior was a repaint of Sun Fac, though I'm not sure how different it was going to be from the handful of repaints the mold has already had.Total pass then.


Vader looked like he was based on the Evolutions mold yet again, as seen in this image from the CVI panel (http://photos.sirstevesguide.com/after-panel-reveals-hi-res/p45000-hasbro-star-wars.html).Very mild interest then, yeesh.


The A-wing Pilot looked like the Tycho body yet again.Super pass.


There's an AOTC clone pilot out right now with the 2013 Republic Assault Dropship, but it's the 2005 Evolutions sculpt. I'm pretty sure the last time they released one (well, two) was in the battle pack with the gunship pod in 2009, but there hasn't been a single-carded version since the original in 2002.I was thinking single-carded, but couldn't find one so it just feels like we've seen him a lot. I just don't care enough about this design anymore I guess, so they all blend together. Either that or just a lot of trips to the Clone Wars version's well.

Tycho
01-24-2013, 11:33 PM
Who is Backstabber?

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-25-2013, 12:55 PM
Oh, notable disinterest for me then. Any pre-2011 mold is going to look bad in my collection compared to the ROTJ figure they finally took accurate measurements on.
Yeah, but at the same time I don't want them to redo every single astromech in the new proportions, either, so I consider the 2010 bartender figure to be a one-off rather than the new standard.


I was thinking single-carded, but couldn't find one so it just feels like we've seen him a lot. I just don't care enough about this design anymore I guess, so they all blend together. Either that or just a lot of trips to the Clone Wars version's well.
That's true, I wasn't considering the TCW figures. Odd Ball was first released in 2009 and then repacked in 2010, and there have been a few versions with vehicles as well (TRU V-wing, Republic Assault Shuttle).


Who is Backstabber?
One of Vader's wingmen from Yavin. His helmet has the gray stripes on the front (which we've gotten in figure form a few times), and also only has one Imperial symbol (on the left side) as opposed to two. (Whether or not that's accurate or just an effect of shadows is up for debate, but that's how it looks in the film.) Vader's other wingman, Mauler Mithel (who has a wedge cut out of his right Imperial symbol), is currently available in the TRU exclusive Yavin Pilot Pack.

JediTricks
01-25-2013, 04:46 PM
Yeah, but at the same time I don't want them to redo every single astromech in the new proportions, either, so I consider the 2010 bartender figure to be a one-off rather than the new standard.R2-D2 is not any old Astromech, he's a hero character as much as Chewbacca or Lando, we want them to be done right, so why not R2 as well? Convenience? At $10 a pop there's nothing convenient about it for me, that's all about saving Hasbro some behind-the-scenes coin.


One of Vader's wingmen from Yavin. His helmet has the gray stripes on the front (which we've gotten in figure form a few times), and also only has one Imperial symbol (on the left side) as opposed to two. (Whether or not that's accurate or just an effect of shadows is up for debate, but that's how it looks in the film.) Vader's other wingman, Mauler Mithel (who has a wedge cut out of his right Imperial symbol), is currently available in the TRU exclusive Yavin Pilot Pack.
It shouldn't be up for debate, I'll show why with these screen captures...

Mauler Mithel:
(screenshot taken during the hunting of the Y-wings, Vader looks to his right and then they show this guy. While dark, you should be able to make out the wedge cut out of his Imp logo)
27072

Backstabber:
(screenshots taken during the hunting of Red leader's wing detachment, you see Vader's TIE and his TIE wingmen's fighters, then you see Red 10 look over his left shoulder, and then you see Backstabber clear as day shooting. Backstabber moves his helmet back for a moment into the light and you can see the twin stripes that Mauler doesn't have, yet it sports both Imp logos, and doesn't have a wedge cut out of his Imp logo so it's definitely not Mauler, and there aren't any other TIE Fighters at this point in the film)
27073
27074
27071

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-25-2013, 08:51 PM
The whole sequence is edited more for action and emotion than it is for continuity - for instance, Mithel (with the wedge missing from his right logo) is indeed the one who responds to Vader when Vader looks to his right, but he's also the one remaining pilot and the guy who runs into Vader ("Look out!") after Han kills Backstabber, so now Mithel is shown on Vader's left.

I initially thought that the pilot shown killing Red 10 (Theron Nett) could have been an editing issue, since we do see the gray-striped design on a TIE pilot with two logos during the shootout with the Falcon after it escapes the Death Star. There's also the fact that, when Theron Nett dies, we see a completely different pilot exploding, the recently named Puck Naeco (compare their helmets):
27076

So it's not like the sequence is without its issues ("Blast it, Biggs, where are you," etc.). That said, there is only one other shot of Backstabber, and that's when he shoots Wedge's X-wing. It's brief, and when I looked at this scene before going to CVI, I didn't see that the logo does actually appear for a few frames in the Wedge-shooting shot:
27077

The photo from the CCG is where this issue comes from, and it's reproduced on Backstabber's Wookieepedia entry (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DS-61-3). His right side is in shadow for the majority of his screentime, and evidently they picked a frame where the shadows were heavy.

So, that said, I guess I hope they don't release this figure after all. :p

Tycho
01-25-2013, 09:25 PM
I'm curious now. Did the Mouse Droids have individual names? No seriously. This is important for a guy like me to know.

I think Hasbro needs to make us action figures out of all of them.

Some Mouse Droids died on the Death Stars, but others served on Star Destroyers.

And while we're at it, on Clone Wars, they featured all those droids, but never was a Mouse Droid a featured character. The Buzz Droids got more to do.

I'm going to prepare a petition to Lucas / Disney, about Mouse Droid Affirmative TRACTion.

Yes, Sir.

What have you sniffed lately?

El Chuxter
01-25-2013, 11:04 PM
I'd say that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel when they start releasing individualized TIE Pilots.

Except they still haven't got to half the Cantina denizens and members of Jabba's court. :mad:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
01-26-2013, 12:10 PM
I'd say that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel when they start releasing individualized TIE Pilots.

Except they still haven't got to half the Cantina denizens and members of Jabba's court. :mad:
They "started" doing it a few years back, but obviously repainting a TIE Pilot's helmet takes up far fewer resources than designing, sculpting, and tooling an all-new figure. They could just keep re-releasing the same TIE Pilot, so at least they're mixing it up.

Maradona
01-26-2013, 12:40 PM
I'd say that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel when they start releasing individualized TIE Pilots.

Except they still haven't got to half the Cantina denizens and members of Jabba's court. :mad:

Are individualized Stromtroopers, Snowtroopers, and Biker Scouts next?

Tycho
01-26-2013, 10:47 PM
Individualized Mouse Droids!

And they should go back to the bios on the cards so we know where and during which movie each Mouse Droid served.

El Chuxter
01-26-2013, 10:55 PM
Okay, in any case, a name like "Backstabber" is pretty sad.

This being Star Wars, it should be B'a'q'st-a-ber. And his last name should be Antilles.

bigbarada
01-26-2013, 11:03 PM
Okay, in any case, a name like "Backstabber" is pretty sad.

Yeah, could you imagine if one of the guys in Top Gun had been nicknamed "Backstabber" and he spent the entire movie wondering why nobody wanted him to be their wingman? Then he finally convinced one of the other pilots to trust him and at the very last second in the movie he stabbed them in the back? Then the audience would be like, "Wow, didn't see that one coming."

I should totally write movies.

JediTricks
01-27-2013, 04:39 AM
The whole sequence is edited more for action and emotion than it is for continuity - for instance, Mithel (with the wedge missing from his right logo) is indeed the one who responds to Vader when Vader looks to his right, but he's also the one remaining pilot and the guy who runs into Vader ("Look out!") after Han kills Backstabber, so now Mithel is shown on Vader's left.

I initially thought that the pilot shown killing Red 10 (Theron Nett) could have been an editing issue, since we do see the gray-striped design on a TIE pilot with two logos during the shootout with the Falcon after it escapes the Death Star. There's also the fact that, when Theron Nett dies, we see a completely different pilot exploding, the recently named Puck Naeco (compare their helmets):
27076

So it's not like the sequence is without its issues ("Blast it, Biggs, where are you," etc.). That said, there is only one other shot of Backstabber, and that's when he shoots Wedge's X-wing. It's brief, and when I looked at this scene before going to CVI, I didn't see that the logo does actually appear for a few frames in the Wedge-shooting shot:
27077

The photo from the CCG is where this issue comes from, and it's reproduced on Backstabber's Wookieepedia entry (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DS-61-3). His right side is in shadow for the majority of his screentime, and evidently they picked a frame where the shadows were heavy.

So, that said, I guess I hope they don't release this figure after all. :pDing ding ding, that's what I'm sayin' yo! :D

As for the TIE Pilot who tumbles into Vader's TIE after the Falcon shoots the other guy, it's Mauler, I just played it, he's got the wedge cut out. So I guess Mauler and Backstabber swapped left to right (or the film did ;)).

Ugh, another problem caused by the CCG? What the hell? That game has cursed SW for too damned long!!!



I'd say that they're scraping the bottom of the barrel when they start releasing individualized TIE Pilots.

Except they still haven't got to half the Cantina denizens and members of Jabba's court. :mad:Releasing individual TIE Pilots helps keep collectors interested and keep a generic-enough TIE Pilot on shelves for kids, and since they don't need to retool to make every other one they can save that budget for stuff like Cantina denziens and members of Jabba's court.


Are individualized Stromtroopers, Snowtroopers, and Biker Scouts next?To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing that if it included height changes and in the case of Stormtroopers helmet changes, they are more susceptible to those in the OT. But I doubt we'll see that because there's so many more of them on screen than there are of TIE Piots.


Yeah, could you imagine if one of the guys in Top Gun had been nicknamed "Backstabber" and he spent the entire movie wondering why nobody wanted him to be their wingman? Then he finally convinced one of the other pilots to trust him and at the very last second in the movie he stabbed them in the back? Then the audience would be like, "Wow, didn't see that one coming."

I should totally write movies.Maverick flew with Goose even though Goose was a Dead Duck. And that cost the Navy one F-14. That's what they got for trying to let a NERD fly!!!! NERRRRRRDS!

Bel-Cam Jos
01-27-2013, 10:14 AM
Ding ding ding, that's what I'm sayin' yo! :D

Ugh, another problem caused by the CCG? What the hell? That game has cursed SW for too damned long!!!

Maverick flew with Goose even though Goose was a Dead Duck. And that cost the Navy one F-14. That's what they got for trying to let a NERD fly!!!! NERRRRRRDS!Ahh, yeeeah! :carrie:

Give a company access to on-the-fringe movie stills and it's as if millions of voices suddenly started mumbling at the same time. I fear something terrible has happened. :confused:

Or, that's just military affirmative action. Next, they'll have to let in cowards, too. COWARD! :sato :