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TeeEye7
03-11-2002, 07:30 AM
Six months later.

I ask you to take a moment to reflect.

Thanks

Rollo Tomassi
03-11-2002, 09:30 AM
You beat me to it, TeeEye. I was just going to start this thread.

Everything I've done since that day has been in it's shadow. The anger and pain have dulled with time, but it hasn't gone away entirely. My heart goes out to all the loved ones of those people who were lost on that fateful day and to the troops carrying out their duties overseas. It's sad for me to see the patriotic furor that rose up in the days following the Tragedy is already starting to wane. People still have bumper sticker flags and magazines have little flags on their covers and such. But the cohesive feeling has left, to be replaced with the standard apathy that ran rampant throught our society and led to this horrific event in the first place. There is entirely too much violence in the world and I just don't understand how someone would choose to sacrifice their children rather than share with and understand and help their neighbors. I pray the next generation realizes the futility of conflict and lay down their weapons. And finally, regardless of any differences, I want to say I am proud to be an American and would be proud to defend the principles upon which this country was founded and strives to adhere to every day.

God bless America.

Bel-Cam Jos
03-11-2002, 12:07 PM
There's a slight difference between patriotism and nationalism, Rollo, so maybe that's why the cohesion seems weaker now to you. Patriotism is uniting, while nationalism is divisive, i.e. "We're better than Country X." Just being anti-Osama doesn't make you patriotic, in my opinion.

As a History and US Government student teacher during the fall semester, I got to see the effects on high schoolers firsthand. Some were nationalistic (using slurs or stereotypes) while others still were having problems dealing with the events.

I have found myself crying a lot more lately, mainly at National Anthems and "God Bless America," but also songs and certain commercials and movies. I've attended several gatherings that were organized after 9/11, plus Veteran's Day ones that have been around for years. As a former Boy Scout and from a VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) family, patriotism has NEVER been a fad for me, and will never be just an "in" thing that passes after things calm down.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can, and
The wisdom to know the difference.

p.s. After reading this, it may sound like I was attacking you, Rollo, and that's not the case at all. Many of your points are correct; my qualms are with "fake patriots" who don't know why they feel the way they do, don't check up on information, and just hate anyone who's not American (including American citizens who come from other cultures).

Deoxyribonucleic
03-11-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Bel-Cam Jos
my qualms are with "fake patriots" who don't know why they feel the way they do, don't check up on information, and just hate anyone who's not American (including American citizens who come from other cultures).

I agree.

Last Thursday in one of my classes, a muslim woman came to speak to us about the Arabic language, the religion of Islam and just some general misconceptions about the religion and people who speak Arabic. For instance, just because someone speaks Arabic, (they are therefore an Arab) does not mean they are muslim (a muslim is a person that gives themselves to the "Peace", to one god, Alah). There are many many people who are Arabic who are not muslims and there are many many people who aren't Arabic who are muslims. The largest population of muslims, those who follow Islam, is in Indonesia, not in the Middle East. Like ALL religions, Islam has its fanatics (Bin Laden and followers) who distort what the true religion and people who truly follow it are about (ie: Jerry Falwell claiming that it was the homosexuals, women and pro-choicers who caused the terrorists to attack our country).

I myself am not religious and have some problems with organized religion, partly because of some of the things I mentioned above, but this woman's words to my class were insightful and helpful in becoming educated about other people in the world and that the entire middle east does not hate America. There are good people EVERYWHERE! She told us that a week after 9-11, someone on campus threw garbage at her and yelled racial slurs because she "looked" muslim (she is, but you can't tell by looks because all kinds of people...Asian, European, American, African, South American, Mexican, etc. are muslim, there is no "look" that comes with being a muslim.

Basically, the lesson here is not to pre-judge by looks or dress or whatever before you get to truly know a person. We cannot go around throwing garabage at people we think look "muslim" or any other "look" for that matter. It is hypocritical and feeds the hate into a viscious circle that will never end!

America is unique because we have so many different people and cultures within our borders, something I would not give up for anything. We are very lucky to live here and experience this uniqueness.

Ok, sorry for getting on my soap box, I just wanted to share this woman's experiences and knowledge because I did learn quite a bit from her.

:)

Bel-Cam Jos
03-12-2002, 02:46 PM
As a history teacher-in-training, I've taken a few courses in Islamic history and world religions; that's how I've been able to relate so many SW aspects to historical things. Interesting details about Islam:

- Islam means "to submit," and a Muslim is "one who submits," to the will of God.

- It believes the Judaeo-Christian God is their God (Al'lah is simply a name like "Jehovah" or "I am who am" ).

- The Ka'bah, that black rock that Muslims walk around in Mecca, supposedly has a sacred rock inside it that many scientists think is a meteorite.

- Jesus is accepted as a prophet, as are Moses and Adam (in fact, Adam, not Abraham, is more of a "founding father" to them).

- There are two main branches: Sunni and Shi'ite, just as there are branches in many religions. Dying for a cause is considered self-murder by some Muslims.

- Muhammed is NOT a god, simply a prophet, who was sent to "fix" the religion of the Jews and Christians (called "the people of the book" by Muslims) that he was told (by the archangel Gabriel) was not being followed properly.

- And much more, that may not be relevant on a Star Wars site.

Learn, then make a decision. React based on emotion and you often make bad decisions.

vulcantouch
03-12-2002, 03:54 PM
they should make that temporary light monument they put up yesterday a permanent memorial, it's simple, elegant, eloquent & very 21st century :cool: just so long as i don't get stuck payin its $1700 monthly power bill :greedy:
vt

Bel-Cam Jos
03-12-2002, 07:40 PM
I thought about the power drain/expense, too, VT. What would be a nice touch would be to have a solar power generator provide the electricity for them. The sun, bringing of light and life, dawn of a new day, providing a beacon of hope to the world. Similar to the towers of old, but intangible, yet just as real as if the cement and steel pillars had never been toppled.

And on the 180th day, they created light. And the world felt it was good. And so it was.

Magnolia-Fan
03-12-2002, 11:17 PM
I had cajun spiced turkey and Lorraine Swiss cheese for lunch that day.

Everything about that day is burned into my memory forever.

master jedi
03-13-2002, 04:29 PM
9/11 was the day I got my new computer.

Getting a new computer was great but that feeling was shot down by the event that happened in NYC.

Eternal Padawan
05-26-2002, 09:43 AM
I thought it fitting to place it here.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-26-2002, 04:34 PM
There was a song (from Public Enemy?) called "9-1-1 Is A Joke," related to the emergency phone number, not the terrorist attack. Well, a couple friends and I thought the title was kinda funny, so it became an inside joke for us. I have a little wooden clock tower on my dresser and the watch inside it hasn't worked in probably 15 years, so I always used to set it for 9:11, as part of that inside joke. I don't think I'll ever change it or wind it back up again.

DarthBrandon
05-26-2002, 05:01 PM
I for one was saddened by the events of 9/11, I'm not American as you can tell by my info, but i thought of all those that were hurt or killed by this tragedy. The children especially, that were left without parents, brothers or sisters, the families and friends torn apart, and I could not fathom why these people would do such a horrific thing. I have a friend Coby who I went to High School with, who is also American and resides in Long Island, he did business in the Trade Centre. All I could think was thank God he was not there that day. My only fear is that if it could happen to the Big Apple and the Pentagon, it could no doubt happen to us as well. I hope that all the perpatraitors involved are brought to swift justice. I do however think that if someone is Islamic or whatever race, should be treated like a human being, until they act otherwise. Don't hate the people hate the man behind it all.

P.S. The last part is not directed in anyway to anybody, it's just my personal belief.

JediDan
05-27-2002, 06:55 PM
I'm not unpatriotic or anything along those lines but I cannot stand the saying "God Bless America" That sounds SO selfish Americans saying that they want to be blessed but no one else. It should be God Bless Everyone. Yes everyone. No one nation will ever be blessed, only individuals can be. I know alot of people out there would hate hearing this and think that I am against America and I love Bin-Laden and his like which is not true at all. America is a great country, I just wish that the individuals that say God Bless America would think of others also and wish good things onto others, especially others that are much less fortunate.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-27-2002, 07:05 PM
I see your point, JediDan. If you truly believe the religions' precepts, all are available for salvation if you accept their teachings. Therefore, God doesn't bless countries, he does so for individuals. I like the song "God Bless America," certainly more than "The Star Spangled Banner" (less warlike, more peaceful), but I do not feel that God has any extra favor for America over France, Bulgaria, Peru, or even Afghanistan. Singing the song doesn't necessarily make you ultranationalistic, JD, so you can still be patriotic. God isn't partial to any nation; He sees no borders from his point of view, just lands of greens and blues and browns and grays and whites.

chewie
05-27-2002, 10:37 PM
With what happens to innocent people with regards to tragedies such as this, I'm not seeing a whole lot of God's blessings happening these days.

bigbarada
05-28-2002, 12:25 AM
Terrible tragedies are not new to the world. There have been events much more horrific than 9/11 throughout history, just none of them had the advantage of being broadcast live as they happened. The world has been plagued by injustices and horror since the beginning (whatever you believe that beginning to be).

Here some numbers to kind of put 9/11 in perspective:

Estimated dead on 9/11: around 3000
Estimated dead during the Jewish Holocaust: over 3,000,000
Estimated dead in Hiroshima: 140,000
Estimated dead in Nagasaki: 74,000
Estimated total deaths worldwide because of WW2: 100,000,000
Estimated dead in the Battle of Gettysburg: over 52,000 within 3 days

Not trying to trivialize 9/11 in any way. One death is too many. What makes 9/11 so hard to take for many Americans was the manner in which it was done. They attacked targets that had no means of defending themselves, unlike Pearl Harbor, which is hard to argue as anything but a cowardly act.

Bel-Cam Jos
05-28-2002, 06:22 PM
Good points, bb. Also, the US hasn't really had any tragedies of this magnitude in quite some time. Europe, Asia, South America have had disasters and wars and bombings and such much more often than we here, so it's just seems to sting harder for us right now. Again, that's just to put it in perspective, not trivialize the event.

JediDan
05-29-2002, 01:20 PM
You bring up a good point Big B. You look at the numbers from others tragedies and it makes 9/11 look insignificant. Yet it is very significant. Anything starting at one death is significant in my book. It's quite the times we live in now. Very scary now with the threat of nuclear weapons and such. Yes we (mankind) have come along way in technology but we have a long long way to go in humanity. :(

jeddah
05-29-2002, 01:28 PM
Do you still have those blue lights at Ground Zero or was that for a limited period of time?

I thought it was very positive that the striking social icon (for want of a better phrase) of the 2 towers in flames that was etched in our memories from the first time we saw it was replaced by an equally striking image - that of the lasers.

jeddah

vulcantouch
09-11-2002, 12:43 AM
. . .and this thred's title is generic enough to serve, so: how bout i start things off with my usual provocative-but-eerily-canny hipshots? ;)

can my fellow yanks remember how in the first months after 9-11 american media featured lots more international news, regardless of whether they had any connection to the war on terror? it was as though we wanted to prove to the world (but mostly to ourselves) that we really Are interested in global issues. but then ratings reality set in: since, for all practical purposes, america Is the center of the modern world, americans really aren't That interested in overseas ho-hum. so soon enough our news reverted to overblown, hysterical, ratings-generating saturation of such world-shaping homefront sagas as nine trapped coal miners, forest fires, opening-weekend grosses, a handful of kidnapped white girls (even though child abductions have actually Decreased in recent years), useless homeland-alert wolf-cryins and sharon osbourne's cancer fight. not only that, shark bites are back on the front page :rolleyes:
america has obsessively fetishized 9-11 mainly cuz it happened to us. floods in asia this summer killed more people, but how much thought or action have they triggered in any of us? of course, one could argue that 9-11 embodies a wider, deeper, more enduring geopolitical symbolism than those natural disasters, and one would be right. but i Doubt that's why not a day or even an hour goes by when 9-11 doesn't flash into an average american's thoughts. the reason's exactly why america's hated around the world: our arrogant, barely-conscious assumption (and our ability and willingness to enact that assumption) that we matter more than anyone else. two other big reasons:
as karlheinz stockhausen (http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/07/09/ground_zero/print.html) heretically but precisely observed, the attacks were among the most aesthetically compelling events of the century. art has nothing to do with morality, so even the art of war has its "masterpieces". the 9-11 attacks were every bit as indelible, surgical and influential as hiroshima.
but i disagree with the above hyperlinked article's thesis in that i think the tacky sublimation of 9-11 into banal commercialism is not only appropriate in light of our capitalist values (if you're gonna embrace capitalism you'd be a hypocrite to deny its inherent vulgarity), but actually a healthy sign of the resilience of our culture. think of it: our capitalistic, post-industrial carnival is able to absorb, integrate, banalize and neutralize a tragedy of even this magnitude just as we would joey buttafuoco or tammy faye :p
the other overlooked reason 9-11 resonates eerily was that it was the closest thing we got to a fulfillment of the millenial armageddon prophecies which have long been basic to many strains of american christianity. christ apparently didn't come back as scheduled, so instead our psyches have settled for this belated, very different but still suitable symbolic triggering of religious dread, awe and possible sign of divine will. which is why that otherwise shrewd p.r.-tactician jerry falwell so easily made the mistake of declaring 9-11 the start of a reckoning america's own "degeneracy" brought on itself.
on that note: one development that has surpassed my pessimistic prediction is that since 9-11 dissent and heresy (http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/07/forbidden/print.html) has, if anything, gotten bolder, more provocative, more substantial, more nuanced. sometimes marginalization and accusations of treason are the price post-911 dissent has ended up paying, but even that only adds to its resonance & notoriety within a society that claims to value free speech and thought. those who before 9-11 bemoaned the loss of a true, loyal-opposition counterculture or avant-garde in our pomo media age need bemoan no longer, cuz that same accessible media infrastructure will ensure free exchange of thought the way it never could've say, 50 years ago :)
vt

jeddah
09-11-2002, 01:39 PM
Obviously, I can only empathise with all the US citizens of these boards and offer my condolences and respects for the tragedies of last year.

The energy buzzing around my mind at the moment in respect of the whole event is less clear than it was last year due to the subsequent actions of many US inhabitants and representatives. I think that perhaps 11/9/01 has become somewhat of a badge of pride in a peverse way for some American people and some of their supporters like his Royal Tonyness of Blair , using it as a means to justify many different acts. As Eddie Izzard or an unkind person might say; now you have some history.

The current state of play disturbs me considerably and I see a lot of unrest ahead that perhaps could have ben avoided. For a start no-one (quite rightly IMO) wants the War that is being mooted at the mo'. This avoidance of War unfortunately will drag out the tension on the planet and other soutions must be applied.

I personally think that the oil issue must be resolved. Iraq and Saudi own 30% of the planet's oil reserves/fields and until the control freaks within your Government and mine pull their fingers out of others pies, the tension will continue like the Cold War.....a Hot War perhaps?

I certainly don't have the answers but as this is a good and frugal place to post my thoughts, I thought I would ;)

thanks for listening

jeddah

stillakid
09-11-2002, 02:20 PM
While I am no expert on international relations, I've boiled the problems down to three distinct categories.

1) Our reliance on oil as the primary energy source.

2) A sense of Justice for all.

3) Religious fanatics.


Number 1. Plain and simple, if and when we convert our primary energy needs from petroleum to something that is in abundant supply everywhere, such as solar, wind, or water, then US gvnt interests in the Middle East will be diminished. Which leads to...

Number 2. With our reliance on oil gone, it would be nice to say "Go to Hell" to the Saudi's and everyone else who we tiptoe around. Unfortunately, US policy has always been to "protect" those victims who live in oil rich areas first (Kuwait) and "strongly condemn" those in non-oil areas second (Bosnia). It would go a long way for public relations and just a sense of dignity if the US would start drafting policy that is a reflection of our Constitutional sense of justice, rather than have an international policy that is in lock-step with our needs for oil. However...

Number 3. This childness naive propagation of one religious belief over another, which has existed for centuries isn't going away anytime soon. If people aren't fighting over resources, they pick up their god of choice and start in on anyone who doesn't believe as they do. There is no way to stop these idiots...ever, I fear. Even if presented with indisputable scientific evidence of a particular god or religion or that none existed at all, they would rationalize said proof away and continue with their destructive ways. No matter what political solutions are reached to turn the heat down to a simmer, there will always be some nutcase out there trying to destroy all the "infidels" of the world.


I've tried avoiding the media coverage today, but to no avail. Walmart of all places has all of their monitors tuned into Sept. 11th "specials." The pain of what happened here will always exist, but what really irked me today was hearing about the newspapers in the "Arab" world and their headlines proclaiming that Sept. 11th was God's punishment upon the US for it's policies. Call it reactionary, but the first thing to pop into my mind was carpet-bombing the lot of them. God had nothing to do with this on either side. To claim such a thing is sick and just further proves my point about the claims that one religion isn't truer than another. They're all wrong. If an involved God existed, he A) wouldn't have been on Bin Laden's side in the first place (unless God himself is an evil SOB), and B) he wouldn't have let it happen at all. I hear about "miracles" all the time. Where was the miracle that day? Why didn't the Hand of God reach down and steer those planes to runways? Heck, why didn't the omniscient God smite those losers before they woke up in the morning? The answer is that there is no answer to those kinds of questions because none of it makes sense. God is not on our side. God is not on their side. He may exist, but a kind God wouldn't allow this sort of thing to happen. Until humans stop doing sh*t like this in the name of God, then it will continue to happen until this planet is no more.


Forgive my rant. I needed to vent. :cry:

JetsAndHeels
09-11-2002, 06:07 PM
Stillakid, I believe your answer is found in your question. You asked why God would let this tragedy happen. That is a very understandable question, but you also said that until humans stop doing these things in God's name it will continue. Well there is your answer. These men believed they were carrying out what their God wanted them to do. Man is given free will, therefore he can make his own decisions; but by the same token he must live (or die in this case) with the consequences.
And take a look at the other side of the coin when you think about 9-11. The country experienced a sense of patriotism that had not been felt in a very long time. We began to come together, and I think we still are in many ways.

stillakid
09-12-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid, I believe your answer is found in your question. You asked why God would let this tragedy happen. That is a very understandable question, but you also said that until humans stop doing these things in God's name it will continue. Well there is your answer. These men believed they were carrying out what their God wanted them to do. Man is given free will, therefore he can make his own decisions; but by the same token he must live (or die in this case) with the consequences.
And take a look at the other side of the coin when you think about 9-11. The country experienced a sense of patriotism that had not been felt in a very long time. We began to come together, and I think we still are in many ways.

I'm not quite sure I completely understand what you're getting at. :confused: I'll think about it some more, but I think you're saying what I'm saying.

The patriotism thing: Remember Bruuuce (Born in the USA) and Heartbeat of America (...that's today's Chevrolet)? Cowboy Ronald Reagan damn near bankrupted this country (putting us in the biggest deficit ever) in order to "make us feel good about ourselves. It was the worst kind of "credit card spending" for that morale boost that this country still was yearning for a mere decade or so after Vietnam. Now, credit card spending doesn't quite have the life & death thing attached to it that mass murder does, but is it necessary to inflict tragedy in order to "bring us together?" Honestly, I don't think that "unity" is the outcome of all of this and even if it was, it would take a strange and twisted "god" to rip apart so many families for such a fleeting sense of "patriotism." Especially when it's been proven that all it really takes is a pop star, a great jingle, and some deficit spending.

The a-holes who got on those planes had to have seen the passengers boarding with them. What kind of "Mission of God" is it when they look at a 2-year old girl on her way to Disneyland for the first time and still decide to follow through with their plan to kill her and everyone else? On the other side, what kind of "Pat Robertson god" allows it to happen? Ergo, the only conclusion is that if there is a god, he is uninvolved in our lives. He created all this and let it go. As you say, free will. That's fine, but what irks me and what I think is the cause of all of this is the constant propagation of the idea that "god" is on "our" side. You hear it all the time in sports. Some team just wins, the microphone is shoved in his face and he thanks god for helping them win that game. :confused: Wait just a second...does that mean that god was against the other team? Did he have a fiver riding on it? Maybe? Who knows? I doubt it, but I laugh anytime I hear such a statement from a sports star. I am disgusted anytime I hear it from a "soldier."

The Overlord Returns
09-12-2002, 01:34 PM
Hmmm....

Well, I suppose it's time to comment on it all. It's taken a year, but I finally had an emotional reaction to the event's of 9/ 11/ 01 last night.

Prior to this, my reaction to the tragedy was almost entirely cerebral. Ofcourse, I was saddened by the loss of life, and the pointlessness of itall, but I immediately began to view the event in terms of what it meant. What it would change. My initial thoughts, as I saw the second plane crash into the south tower...

So, this is how world war 3 begins.


Reactions like that were to be expected. Soon, it became obvious that this was not the case. Perhaps, thankfully, that is just not the way the world works anymore.

We now have a year of fallout to look back on. We should have learned many things. The sad thing is.......we haven't.

It is clear that the Western world needs to look in on itself and it's foreign policies. Inparticular, one nation, no matter how powerful and mighty, canot push it's force and will unrestricted on the rest of the world when it sees fit. These frankenstein monsters the U.S. consider their great enemies, were also their bizarre science experiments. Iraq was funded and armed out of oil interests. Bin Laden, and half of al qaeda, was trained to fight the soviets in afghanistan. The US, and the west in general, needs to look toward creating peace in these regions, and discover ways of working together on a world stage. The opportunity was handed to us after september 11th, and we dropped it completely.

The chickens came home to roost. It was, in some ways, inevitable.

We also need to realize the need for a World Court. When crimes are committed on this kind of scale, they become crimes against the world. Make no mistake, this was not simply an attack on America, this was an attack on nations across the world. Americans died alongside Canadians, europeans, asians, israelis and arabs. Bin Laden and al qaeda are fugitives of the world, and it is the world that should administer justice. Not George Bush's administration.

We're seeing so many reactions, and ways of thinking about this. It is clear the worlds population wants the United States to reign itself in. Likewise, so do the american people. When your own population does not want you attacking another country, and does not support a proposed assault on said nation, it is time to look at other solutions. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. Bush, and his lapdog Blair, canot be allowed to waltz in and create war with a nation because they "might" do something. There is no proof that Iraq in any way assisted Bin Laden, or has weapons of mass destruction on the ready. Let the world unite and deal with Hussein. It is not George Bush's right to fight his fathers lost battle for him.


The tragedy of september 11 is not strictly that of the thousands of lives lost. Nor that of the rescuers, the true heroes, who also fell on that day. The tragedy of september 11th is that we've made no strides to stop it from happening again.

2-1B
09-12-2002, 01:52 PM
World Court ? HA ! :rolleyes:

Okay, if you want the world to unite and do something about it, why isn't the U.N. taking action? Regarding Hussein, I think it's a joke that they allow him to screw them time and time again by ignoring agreed-to resolutions. How inept.

What do you mean, Irag "might" do something? How many people has that guy already killed?

The Overlord Returns
09-12-2002, 01:59 PM
We are talking in terms of using weapons of mass destruction against the west. This is the paper thin reasoning given for an attack on Iraq.

The only proper way to oust saddam hussein is to strike Bagdhad. In striking Bagdhad, you kill thousands of innocent civilians.

See where I am going with this?

2-1B
09-12-2002, 02:16 PM
Oh yes, innocent civillians. Reminds me of Kurdish refugees.
Thousands of them.
And of the thousands in the WTC, oh and don't forget the people on the planes who had their throats slit in order to gain control of the cockpits. The very people you seek to appease would kill you, me, SirSteve, and any other Westerners they could.

Weapons of mass destruction? What do you think a guy is up to when he refuses to allow these "weapon inspectors" to snoop aound in the first place?

Don't get me wrong, those inspections are a joke when certain materials can be moved around and hidden . . .

The Overlord Returns
09-12-2002, 02:21 PM
I seek to appease no one........

but yes, Iraqi civilians are civilians.........worth just as much as americans, canadians, etc.....

And, I don't think you intend tosay that all arabs would see us dead.......so I won't bother jumping the gun on that one.

2-1B
09-12-2002, 02:23 PM
Indeed, by "they" I mean TERRORISTS NOT "all Arabs"

Are you suggesting that the life of a Kurd is worth LESS than that of an American, Canadian, Iraqi, etc. ?

edit: By appeasement I refer to the issue of American policy, which you raised. It gives the impression that if someone flies airplanes into buildings, we should use it as motivation to look at what "we" did wrong.

The Overlord Returns
09-12-2002, 02:35 PM
Along with searching out and helping to bring the perpetrators of this act to justice.......

Yes...I do believe this was an opportunity to review, and possibly amend, actions taken in the past that were one of the factors that led to september 11.

No I am not suggesting this at all. I am flat out stating that kurdish refugees have NO bearing on why the US govt. wants to attack Iraq, however.

BTW.....note I said I didn't think you meant to blanket all arabs in there. Was merely a little confused as to the vagueness of your "they". I'm not looking to get into a fight here.

Deoxyribonucleic
09-12-2002, 03:02 PM
:cry:

Wookiee
09-12-2002, 04:15 PM
"God Bless the USA" is all well and good,
but how about "God Bless the World"
Let's not be so exclusive, we're all in this together.

2-1B
09-13-2002, 01:12 AM
Overlord, it's just so frustrating that this guy hides behind (in many instances) innocent people. :(
I'm so tired of his racket, at SOME point he has to go.
I always hear about scuffles in the no-fly zones, and I just wonder how long this can go on ?
I mean, some countries are "warning" that the removal of Hussein would "destabilize" the region - how stable is it now?
How much instability is acceptable?

Aside from that, thank you for your consideration in not taking my comments the wrong way - I didn't reply to you per se, rather to anyone who might read that and misinterpret my comments.
Seriously, I appreciate that.

vulcantouch
09-13-2002, 02:11 AM
-or, as an anonymous, shrewd observer remarked (http://salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/print.html), "What cheeses me off the most about the Sept. 11 attacks is that it gave Americans a newer, better reason to be narcissistic. Before they were just (in their own eyes) the world's No. 1 providers of liberty, entertainment and industry. Now they're the world's No. 1 victims, too" :Pirate:
vt

2-1B
09-13-2002, 02:21 AM
VT, I did take notice last year that Condit's coverage disappeared . . . but some of those other posts are shocking ! :eek:

The Overlord Returns
09-13-2002, 10:07 AM
damn I can't get the link to open........

caesar...got your pm. Thanks.

jeddah
09-16-2002, 03:05 PM
:eek: :sur: :eek:

jeddah

Tycho
09-17-2002, 05:44 PM
What I'm not doing is taking anything at face value.

To get where I'm taking this, first remember the J.F.K. assassination.

Who killed Kennedy? Who benefitted? Why?

They said (about the VietNam War): "Do you want the war? Then get rid of Kennedy and put a Texan in the White House (Lyndon Johnson)."

Who:

The corporations that produce military hardware.

The companies that regulage fossil fuels and energy reserves.

The Generals that can retire and be hired as CEO's for these companies.

What do they need?

A PROSTITUTE who will run on their campaign contributions and seek the glory of the White House for their own gratification - or their own agenda.

Johnson was a great President (LBJ). He continued a lot of Kennedy's programs he believed in: Civil Rights and The War on Poverty.

While there is still poverty, there were significant strides in Black Civil Rights and Women's Rights.

The cost? Viet Nam.

Today:

Vice President Al Gore wins more per-capita votes from more Americans than George W. Bush.

Al Gore's agenda: environmental conservation, energy independence, and health care reform.

A Supreme Court rules along the lines of the Electoral College (an outdated proceedure used to elect Presidents). This court is chosen by Republicans (Prostitutes) Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, and George Bush Sr. (Several Clinton appointees and a Carter appointee in the minority).

Lesson #1 in Political Science classes focused on the High Courts in a standard college education: the High Courts are POLITICAL institutions. Common law is made from INTERPRETATION of written legislation and the constitution. It is then based on preceedent from past cases, or those preceedents can be over-turned. Decisions are BIASED. There is NO TRUE JUSTICE for many circumstances in political cases. Presidential emergency powers (like Palpatine's) can over-rule the Court (a check-n-balance), and Congress can remove (impeach) a President (his check-n-balance). But in exchange for appointment to the Supreme Court, you vote in accordance to the whims of the political party you belong to, and in compliance with the views of the President and his agenda who had appointed you.

So George W. Bush is in the White House, managed by a conservative agenda that is controlling him. He acts well on stage with the Sept. 11 tragedy, and now it appears he may be causing Sadam Hussain to back down.


But what's going on:

1) the Presidential election scandal is resolved in December 2000. George Bush takes office with less than 50% of Americans supporting him.

2) energy companies linked to Bush and Vice President Cheney gouge all of us, terribly bad in California, a state with a Democratic Governor, and not supporting Bush in the election.

3) corporate scandals in the energy companies start to come to the surface. The Governor of California sets up to sue them and pursue them and their political prostitutes for acting illegally in collusion.

4) Sept. 11th Tragedy unfolds. One ex-CIA operative named Osama Bin Laden who has operated for years with American made weapons and advisors, is blamed (but never captured).
Evidence of more corporate wrong-doing, and possibly those who would expose it in exchange for leniency are killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers. A small country who could never "invade the USA" and take over (and whose terrorists could be prevented from taking action over here with stronger security measures and a smart Palestinian Homeland policy) is built up into a major threat. Scandals are forgotten in the face of a horrible tragedy. The President Un-elected becomes more popular.

5) As corporate scandal evidence comes back in the aftermath of September 11th, War on Iraq becomes more and more a reality.

George Bush the First could have destroyed Sadam Hussein in the Gulf War. Instead, he made him his SON'S re-election campaign manager!

Don't you get it?

If we were facing war with the USSR still, political stunts would be far more dangerous and riskier.

Saddam Hussein does need to be kept in check, but is it our job to knock over little countries and set up welfare systems for their people?

Independence used to have to be wanted for and fought for. Now it's given away in exchange for puppet governments like we have in Afghanistan now, who require the support of our military advisors and their corporation helicopters that are sub-standard and kill American service personnel!

But now with Saddam a threat, it serves the same purpose as those trying to create low income jobs for security personnel because there's a man talking to himself in the Wal*Mart auto-service center.

It's like saying you needed the Clone Troopers to control Watto.


Palpatine created the Separatist Movement and was obviously in league with Count Dooku to get emergency powers and get to use the CloneTroopers.

He said he'd set aside his power when the crisis has abated. Well, so that the crisis does not abate and he retains power - I bet you that in Epsiode 3, PALPATINE will CREATE THE REBEL ALLIANCE! (only their ideals will not be wasted amongst corrupt men alone, and those with real democratic ideals will eventually regain power).

But read between the lines. September 11th Could Have Been A Scandal!!!

If this were ever revealed, right here in America, there could be civil war more violent than a hundred times the intensity shown by election protestors in Florida!

Wake up and smell what we've fallen for!

Jedi Clint
09-17-2002, 07:59 PM
Remember that female (D) Senator that wanted to know what the President knew about 9/11 and when he knew it? She started out by spewing similar accusations. The catch: She took campaign contributions from radical muslims. Her defense: "We don't racially stereotype our campaign contributors".


Despite the venom about our very elected President, Tycho. Gore supporters haven't manufactured a single vote since the official "counting" was halted on order of the Supreme Court. This also isn't the first time in history that a President has won the electoral (there by the office) without winning the popular.

I feel you've posted a great deal of misinformation. Did we invade Iraq when Bill was in charge because Saddam was a big threat? By listening to him at the time, you'd certainly get the impression that he was. Did we kill him? Why not? Perhaps the intention was never there.....perhaps Bill needed a distraction. Does it really help to point fingers?

derek
09-17-2002, 08:54 PM
1) the Presidential election scandal is resolved in December 2000. George Bush takes office with less than 50% of Americans supporting him.

but bill clinton didn't win a majority in either of his elections either. 43% in 1992 and 49% in 1996.:) bush did get 50% of the popular votes, and just because you don't like the electorial college, dosen't mean the election was stolen


2) energy companies linked to Bush and Vice President Cheney gouge all of us, terribly bad in California, a state with a Democratic Governor, and not supporting Bush in the election.

the reason california had an energy crisis is because the leftist greens wouldn't allow any new power plants to be built to keep up with the growing population. here in texas(yee haw), we've had no problems with "gouging" because we continue to build power plants. we don't have to buy ours from some one else. supply and demand.:)


One ex-CIA operative named Osama Bin Laden who has operated for years with American made weapons and advisors, is blamed (but never captured

where did you come up with this? any reliable source? art bell?:crazed: i know the afganistan people were supplied with weapons by the US during their war with russia, but from what i have heard, bin ladin hated american's even back in the 80's. i recall hearing a radio interview with republican congressman dana rorebacker(may be spelled wrong) who actually was on the ground during the soviet/afgan war in the 80's, and was within 50 yards of bin ladin's base camp. he was told to cover his face and not speak by his guides, because he was told bin ladin hated americans and would kill them on site, even if they were giving him military aide.

Tycho
09-17-2002, 11:21 PM
On # 3, I don't know. I admit that. I read that in the papers etc.

But like Viet Nam, where the Soviets aided the Northern Communists against us, in Afghanistan, we aided these not-so-clean regimes they have there against the Russians. It was the way of life during the Cold War.

As to #2, Texas energy companies are not to popular with Californians. We also had no problem until it was revealed that too many of our powerplants were taken offline at the same time for "maintainance" causing the severe shortage and black outs. They acted in collusion when they purposely did this (energy companies) and they had ties with your Texan based companies to profit from it all.

I agree that they need to build new energy sources in California, however they do NOT have to be nuclear power plants. But SOLAR power will not make companies long term profits.

However, when I own my own home, I plan on doing my entire roof with solar collectors and not buy my energy (or hold that in reserve). Honestly, the cost will be more exhorbinant than my electric bills combined for possibly 5 years, but if I'm buying a home to live in for a while....look at the long run.

Anyway, finally I'm aware of others that got by with the electoral college. Didn't Kennedy, anyway? (yes, a Democrat). Regardless, it's still a stupid system but those in power seem to either let them benefit by it, or they assassinate the President.

Bush won't have to worry about that. But I wonder if Al Gore did?

Regardless, Florida and its government is crooked. Ask the blacks who couldn't vote about that.

If you have a race of people that's stereotypically economically down or repressed, and you fear them because they could be anything from criminal to socially un-hygenic, you promote them with opportunities, education, and empowerment. You assimilate them into our melting pot and you no longer have to fear law-abiding citizens of your own economic class who have everything to lose if they step outside the lines then. Instead, you have a people discriminated against with all kinds of lacking in opportunities going on, and you get a very skewed statistic when you study the color of inmates in our country's prison system.

derek
09-17-2002, 11:32 PM
:
Regardless, Florida and its government is crooked. Ask the blacks who couldn't vote about that.
i would have to disagree with this. i'm not a bush supporter(jeb or george), but from what i saw, and i followed the election fiasco very close, the whole mess was caused by three democratically run and populated counties, who happened to have some really dumb people who couldn't read an election ballot. it was a ballot made and approved by democrat officials.

as for blacks not being allowed to vote, that is not true. i very clearly recall the "human rights" hearings on C-SPAN, and no wrong doing could be found, by black liberals doing the investigating. i do know some convicted felons who happened to be black, were not allowed to vote, but that's the law. the stories of white cops blocking the streets to black populated polling areas were lies.

again, tycho, i'm no bush fan. i didn't vote for him. but he won fair and square. i too am not a fan of the electorial college, but that's the system....for now.

on a side note, isn't it funny that the same counties who had trouble voting in the 2000 president election also just had trouble in the democrat govenor primary? and they are still trying to blame rebublicans!!!:crazed:

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-17-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
What I'm not doing is taking anything at face value.

To get where I'm taking this, first remember the J.F.K. assassination.

Who killed Kennedy? Who benefitted? Why?

They said (about the VietNam War): "Do you want the war? Then get rid of Kennedy and put a Texan in the White House (Lyndon Johnson)."

No one will quite ever know what Kennedy would have done regarding the Vietnam war, since he was assissinated in 63' and the war didn't start until '65.

Some close Kennedy friends and associates believe that he wouldn't have gotten involved in a conflict, but that is speculation only. From what I read, I think that the opposite is true. Kennedy like a Nixon, was a cold-war hawk. He didn't want U.S. influence undermined in the Third World by the Soviets. Kennedy also committed advisors to the country. In a book on RFK which I just read, it states that RFK supported LBJ's inital war policies because he was sure that his brother would have been tough and committed as LBJ had been (his stance about his brother and the war would later change though). Also, LBJ's closest advisors on the matter, including Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the chief hawk in the administration, were all holdovers from the Kennedy administration.

The thing that Kennedy might have been influenced by were the talk of some of his confidents and advisors. While most steadily beat the war drum, some had warned LBJ of the impending quagmire of doom in that country. A senator from Georgia, Richard Russell says on a recorded tape (that they play all the time on C-SPAN) that war in Vietnam would be unwinnable, and that being involved there isn't worth one American life. LBJ agrees with Russell, and too states that he doesn't think that the U.S. had any chance of victory. Yet less than a year later, the first wave of American troops landed in Vietnam.

It is like a Greek tragedy, LBJ's handling of the war. He knows deep down that war is unwinnable, yet afraid of being blamed for a Communist takeover, he listens to his advisors and goes ahead anyway.

Tycho, you also mention the CEOs and how they profit from the wars. Our 1960's class invited the WNY leader of the Vietnam Veterans Association last year, and he and buddies of his, strongly believe that one reason why Nixon prolonged and intensified the war, was to appease the CEOs of weapons and munitions industry who were making tons of money off the war.


originally posted by Jedi Clint
Remember that female (D) Senator that wanted to know what the President knew about 9/11 and when he knew it? She started out by spewing similar accusations. The catch: She took campaign contributions from radical muslims. Her defense: "We don't racially stereotype our campaign contributors".

That was Cynthia McKinney, a Congresswoman from Georgia who lost her primary in August, and will not be reelected this year. I think she based her accusations on the fact that execs from a major U.S. airline, (who I can't remember) sold all of their stock a month or so before 9/11 and made millions. After 9/11 the stock price went down the toilet. These execs were close friends of Bush.

I don't agree with what she said, she has no proof. I do however see no reason for her not accepting $$$ from Muslim-Americans. To my knowledge, none of her contributors had publically stated that 9/11 was a good thing or anything to that nature. And her opponent in the primary accepted a lot of $$$ from radical Jewish groups, so I guess we can say they both got involved in stuff like that.

As far as Saddam is concerned, I think that former U.N. representative Scott Ritter is right on the money regarding his explanation for war. Bush's foreign policy advisors are stacked with ideologues who believe that Saddam's dictatorship regime is pure evil (I have no beef with that) and that thusly, he should be removed from office. They feel that getting him out of office is crucial and are so committed to that idea, that they are prepared to do anything for that to happen. Ritter is convinced that no matter how much Saddam capitulates, whether it be him allowing U.N. weapon inspectors in (which Saddam has indicated that he would), or whatever, Bush officials will find any excuse for an attack. They might say, well fine, Saddam has let in U.N. inspectors, but we want him to let in our U.S. picked inspectors. I'd be very distrustful of that if I were Saddam. Since the administation knows that he might not do that, they may use that as an excuse for war.

Another problem is that Saddam is one of many evil dictatorships who operate around the world. After we knock him out, should we go after North Korea, or Syria or even Cuba.

Some may say that those above countries pose little or no threat to us, but Iraq does. Well, I don't believe that. The only dastardly weapons, most everybody agrees, Iraq has are biological and chemical weapons, not nuclear weapons. For 10 years after the Gulf War, Iraq posed little threat to the U.S. They only menacing things they did to us, were radar locks on our airplanes during the no-fly zones. No attacks against us have indicated or implicated Saddam involvement. If Iraq has suddenly become a threat to us, it is because of all the rhetoric spewed out from Washington.

I do feel that since Bush has been hinting at war with Iraq, Iraq I am sure has beefed up it's forces. The rhetoric of the Bush administration is largely to blame. I think this open discussion regarding war, which has been going on for almost a year now, has given Saddam time to shore up his arsenals. I don't think we'd have much of a problem of taking him out, but I do think we are giving him too much time to prepare for a possible invasion.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-18-2002, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Anyway, finally I'm aware of others that got by with the electoral college. Didn't Kennedy, anyway? (yes, a Democrat). Regardless, it's still a stupid system but those in power seem to either let them benefit by it, or they assassinate the President.

Kennedy won both the popular vote and the electoral vote. The popular vote was by a very close, close margin though. Up until 2000, it was the closest presidential race ever. But he did win by a heftier margin counting the electoral votes.



Regardless, Florida and its government is crooked. Ask the blacks who couldn't vote about that.

If you have a race of people that's stereotypically economically down or repressed, and you fear them because they could be anything from criminal to socially un-hygenic, you promote them with opportunities, education, and empowerment. You assimilate them into our melting pot and you no longer have to fear law-abiding citizens of your own economic class who have everything to lose if they step outside the lines then. Instead, you have a people discriminated against with all kinds of lacking in opportunities going on, and you get a very skewed statistic when you study the color of inmates in our country's prison system.

I agree wholeheartedly with those statements.

If you are a felon, they strip away one of your country's most important freedoms, the right to vote.

I wonder how some would react if they strip a felon's right to own a gun. I mean they are criminals right? Why, not since we take away their power to vote?

vulcantouch
09-18-2002, 01:19 AM
or, if that don't work, go to salon.com, click on "life" and then "forbidden thoughts". lmk if it works & any reactions :)

tycho: what i think you're getting at- the conspiracy theory that says the american right wing engineered 9-11 (or at least allowed it to happen) to bolster their own mandate- has already been presented by a french author in a recent book (not sure if it's been translated into english). in addition to asking (as you do) who benefitted, he also points out that all anthrax targets were either democrats or "liberal media" figures, and that since new york was a bastion of leftwingery anyway it coulda been deemed an "acceptable" domestic target. i agree there's a certain logic to it, but without actual proof i refuse to consider this anything but a horrifying-yet-tantalizing (let's face it, even the ugliest conspiracy theory is kinda fun :evil: ) notion. but i agree it does more harm to Supress such notions than raise them.

jc: "perhaps Bill needed a distraction"
-perhaps; we certainly heard conservatives accuse him of as much at the time. so if he wasn't above such suspicion, why should dubya be?

derek: "bill clinton didn't win a majority in either of his elections either"
-oh come now, you know the reason clinton didn't reach 50% is cuz third-party candidate perot got ~20%, so the two situations are hardly comparable :p

"just because you don't like the electorial college, dosen't mean the election was stolen"
-agreed, but now that you mention it i Don't like the electoral college, as it systematically makes rural votes count more than urban votes. why should ignorant bumpkin hayseeds get a bigger say than city-slicker dirtballs? ;) i say do away with it, but political reality sez i won't get my wish anytime soon :p

lbc: "war in Vietnam would be unwinnable"
-winning in vietnam was never really the point; it was a battle we lost in order to win the larger, more important cold war :Pirate:

jdah: in belated answer to your may 29 quextion above, they took down the light sculpture (actually, conceived it as temporary from the start) despite admiration from far-flungers like you & me cuz people living within several blocks of them whined about the brightness at night. good to know that manhattanites are back to their old self-centered selves, eh? :rolleyes:
vt

Emperor Howdy
09-18-2002, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Instead, you have a people discriminated against with all kinds of lacking in opportunities going on, and you get a very skewed statistic when you study the color of inmates in our country's prison system.

My God, "lacking in opportunities"!?!?! Man, you ARE a Democrat, aren't you?




Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
That was Cynthia McKinney, a Congresswoman from Georgia who lost her primary in August, and will not be reelected this year. I think she based her accusations on the fact that execs from a major U.S. airline, (who I can't remember) sold all of their stock a month or so before 9/11 and made millions. After 9/11 the stock price went down the toilet. These execs were close friends of Bush.

I don't agree with what she said, she has no proof. I do however see no reason for her not accepting $$$ from Muslim-Americans. To my knowledge, none of her contributors had publically stated that 9/11 was a good thing or anything to that nature. And her opponent in the primary accepted a lot of $$$ from radical Jewish groups, so I guess we can say they both got involved in stuff like that.

Actually, Majette (her opponent) received the majority of her contributions from sources within the state (like 98%, I believe?)

McKinney is an embarrassment and an idiot, not to mention a paranoid conspiracy theorist. That's why she lost. Her inquisition of the President is ridiculous and unfounded. So let me see, Bush dropped the ball, ey? Should've taken action before the attack, is that right? Hmmm, I wonder how many poor victimized minority groups would have been trampling the grounds at the White House had Bush instructed the FBI to scrutinize Muslim "Americans" before the fact. You'd have every convenient store owner in America shouting violations of their civil rights. Even AFTER Sept. 11th they've turned national concern and awareness into "racism".

Boo-hoo. Poor Muslims. :cry:


Got news for ya.....that kind of sentiment is what caused the attacks in the first place, not corporations trying to make a buck. Get your head out of the clouds. If you want a nation where everyone holds hands and sings, "It's a Small World After All", then don't question the President when a group of psychos crash planes into the WTC. If no one's watching the door at the party, there's bound to be a couple of guys who walk in and spike the punch with GHB.


As for Saddam, see ya. My only hope is that when (not if) we move in, no American or British casualities are incurred.

derek
09-18-2002, 08:48 AM
I wonder how some would react if they strip a felon's right to own a gun. I mean they are criminals right? Why, not since we take away their power to vote?

that right is taken away. felons can't own firearms.


-oh come now, you know the reason clinton didn't reach 50% is cuz third-party candidate perot got ~20%, so the two situations are hardly comparable

i think the situations are equal. i bring up clinton's lack of a majority, because those who despise bush say he's not legit because he didn't get 51% of the vote. well neither did clinton. if bush is not legit, then neither was clinton. besides, the vast majority of those who voted for perot were mad republicans. if perot hadn't run, bush the 1st would of easily beat clinton.
and the fact that clinton couldn't get more than 49% against dole is sad. what's worse, algore should of soundly beat bush. the florida situation shouldn't of even mattered. if a candidate can't win after giving us " the best economy in 50 years, in a time of peace" it says a lot about what a horrible politician gore is.

The Overlord Returns
09-18-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy



As for Saddam, see ya. My only hope is that when (not if) we move in, no American or British casualities are incurred.

I have to agree with you on one thing. I also hope no british casualties occur, or canadian casualties. Of course, it'll most likely be the american soldiers killing the british and the canadians, as precedent seems to indicate.

stillakid
09-18-2002, 11:09 AM
Tycho,

While indeed the puzzle pieces you fit together construct a somewhat convincing picture, I'd caution that Literal Fundamentalist Christians use the same "techniques" to bolster their own agenda. It's possible to take almost any "facts" and manipulate, twist, and connect them in such a way as to show how something appears to be truth. Now, I'm not suggesting that you're wrong, nor that you are Fundamentalist Christian ;), or that I'm now defending Republicans. Just merely pointing out the perils of constructing such an elaborate puzzle. There are too many pieces that you've included within your own picture that could be construed as partisan and many more pieces that you didn't include which might introduce variables that could bring it all toppling down.

We've all heard that the White House allowed Pearl Harbor to happen despite warnings in order to have justification for entering WWII as we did. So while suggesting that this administration allowed 9/11 to happen seems a bit extreme, even for the Skull and Bones Society, it certainly isn't entirely out of the question.

But ultimately, if it is truth, it only goes to prove that the ultimate solution will be to find an alternate and universally available means of energy. Skull and Bones exists to control politics which means controlling resources (which translates into ultimate power and wealth). Taking that pawn of Energy away from those co#ksuckers would force them to find another resource to play havoc with, be it food, water or shelter (or Star Wars toys :rolleyes:). The immediate result would be the withdrawal of US influence over world conflicts when it involved oil resources. With that in mind, hopefully, the US could then pick and choose it's battles based on issues of humanity and conscience, rather than stock options and economic domination.

Somebody out there figure out a way to run our cars on water and you'll see an almost frightening change in the way our government operates in the world.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-18-2002, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by derek
That right is taken away. felons can't own firearms.

Sorry, I've been watching too much Simpsons.

What, being convicted of a felon limits you only to five handguns per 24-hour period?



Originally posted by vulcantouch
lbc: "war in Vietnam would be unwinnable"
-winning in vietnam was never really the point; it was a battle we lost in order to win the larger, more important cold war.

That may be the correct reason why we got involved in the first place, but the country should have realized sooner than it did, that the war was unwinnable. Instead we were bogged down there for 10 years, at the cost of 58,000 American lives.

Howdy,

I by no means was insinuating that McKinney was victimized by the Bush administration and that was the sole reason she lost. I can understand why they were against her because of her outspoken comments.

I know in Georgia primaries people can cross over and vote for a
candidate that is a different party from there's. I know a lot of nonDemocrats cast votes against her. If this rule didn't exist, would she still have been voted out?

Emperor Howdy
09-19-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
Of course, it'll most likely be the american soldiers killing the british and the canadians, as precedent seems to indicate.


Nice....reeeal nice, dude. :rolleyes:





Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
I know in Georgia primaries people can cross over and vote for a candidate that is a different party from there's. I know a lot of nonDemocrats cast votes against her. If this rule didn't exist, would she still have been voted out?


LBC, I honestly have no idea. Maybe...maybe not. I'll give this to Cynthia McHitler.....she certainly had a powerful group of wealthy Jew-hating backers supporting her campaign. Perhaps crossovers DID make the difference. Nevertheless, many people were tired of her pro-Arab, pro-Muslim, pro-black, anti-white, anti-Israeli attitude. Her consistant use of the race card, mud-slinging her opponent, and prostituting herself for the Arab/Black vote hit a sour note for maaaaaaaaaany, many Georgians, of all races and creeds. I'd like to hope that even people who intially supported her changed their views after watching her display her true colors during the elections. Oh, and after she lost? My God, you should have seen the hate-spewing reports on the news. It was like an episode of OZ. Groups of Muslim African American men jumping around without their shirts on, flashing "Southside" gang signs in the camera, screaming about how, "..if it wasn't for the damn Jews", McFarakan would've won. Bedsheets with pro-McKinney rhetoric, including "number-tampering" conspiracies were hung from bridges over I-20. If I was McMalcolm X, I'd be embarrassed of my partie's behavior before and after the fact.....but alas, McMilitant exhibited the same lack of class.

Was there an intelligence failure by the U.S. (in regards to 9/11)? Possibly. Did our government shrug off the warning signs? Maybe. It's all assumption and theory. However, MY theory does NOT include Bush sitting back in a recliner, watching CNN, smoking a cigar, saying, "Alright......any second now....and............ok.......here it comes.......right abooout.......NOW!"

*CRASH....the first plane hits*



No, it includes a politically-motivated, terrorist-funded, anti-Semitic, black militant Democrat attempting to divide and confuse an already disheartened nation by pointing fingers at a Republican White House. Hmmm....."now use McKinney to create more American distrust and lack of confidence in the U.S. Government". Wow, in terms of conspiracy, THAT sounds more like Osama's Plan B. rather than "now send secret invoice for Balance Due in Full to Dubya". :stupid:

2-1B
09-19-2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by derek
i think the situations are equal. i bring up clinton's lack of a majority, because those who despise bush say he's not legit because he didn't get 51% of the vote. well neither did clinton. if bush is not legit, then neither was clinton. besides, the vast majority of those who voted for perot were mad republicans. if perot hadn't run, bush the 1st would of easily beat clinton.
and the fact that clinton couldn't get more than 49% against dole is sad. what's worse, algore should of soundly beat bush. the florida situation shouldn't of even mattered. if a candidate can't win after giving us " the best economy in 50 years, in a time of peace" it says a lot about what a horrible politician gore is.

No, they are not equal situations. :)

Clinton had a lack of a majority, but neither of the other two jackasses had a majority either. W Bush didn't have a majority, but the other jackass (Gore) DID. I'm not saying that in defense of Gore or anything, because I think he's a goon - but you can't say they are equal.

Now, since you brought up Perot, had he NOT run and had Bush Senior won the majority of the popular vote while Clinton won the electoral vote, then THAT would be an equal situation.

Let me reiterate, I'm not saying this from any political standpoint, I'm just being objective. Personally, I wouldn't care if they did away with the Electoral College, but since we DO have it, Gore can't whine because we all knew the rules going in. :)





Howdy, I disagree with your decision to use Malcolm's name in the same sense as Hitler and Farakhan. :)
People can cry "white devil" all they want, but if they wouldn't be so foolish they would see it's meaning in a political sense, a sense that this white guy can appreciate. :)
I do not however, have anything to say in defense of McKinney. :D

One quick political note, I would like to thank the state of Georgia for getting rid of Bob Barr. :happy:

Emperor Howdy
09-19-2002, 03:38 AM
Bob Barr...............




Ba Ba. :D

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy



Nice....reeeal nice, dude. :rolleyes:
:

As I said, the precedent has been set. American soldiers seem to be a lot like the stormtroopers. They've got the biggest weapons, but damn do you think they could shoot 'em straight?

derek
09-19-2002, 10:54 AM
As I said, the precedent has been set. American soldiers seem to be a lot like the stormtroopers. They've got the biggest weapons, but damn do you think they could shoot 'em straight?

i would guess you are reffering to the accidental bomb drop on some canadian soldiers? well, those airmen are being court marshalled for their mis-deeds.

as for american soldiers being stormtroopers, it's the exact opposite. it's the americans who have freed the world form the rule of stormtroopers. and you think they can't shoot straight? ask those afgans who tried to assisinate their president a few weeks ago. ;) wait, they're dead. nevermind.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by derek


i would guess you are reffering to the accidental bomb drop on some canadian soldiers? well, those airmen are being court marshalled for their mis-deeds.

as for american soldiers being stormtroopers, it's the exact opposite. it's the americans who have freed the world form the rule of stormtroopers. and you think they can't shoot straight? ask those afgans who tried to assisinate their president a few weeks ago. ;) wait, they're dead. nevermind.

Yes you're right......ofcourse there was the friendly fire in the gulf war that hit british troops. My question to you is....do you really think that the pilots were at fault as the us Gov't would have us believe?

As for the US freeing the world from the rule of stormtroopers......just who exactly are you reffering to?

Exhaust Port
09-19-2002, 11:36 AM
Wow, your right The Overlord Returns, the US is the only country that has ever been guilty of friendly fire deaths! It's amazing how the only friendly fire incidents EVER have been the fault of the US. We should be stopped from even trying before we kill AGAIN. We can't even aim our big fancy weapons without taking out whole towns.

The Fog of War, no one's immune from it.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Exhaust Port

We can't even aim our big fancy weapons without taking out whole towns.

The Fog of War, no one's immune from it.

Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the taking out of whole towns.

vulcantouch
09-19-2002, 12:41 PM
-exactly; when you got 3 viable candidates instead of two the "majority percentage" any one needs to win goes down from 51% to 34%. failing to see that is a predictable pitfall of habitually bivalent thinkin ;)

derek: "if perot hadn't run, bush the 1st would of easily beat clinton"
-for that matter, if nader hadn't run gore woulda won. so what does either hafta do with anything? "pure thinking doesn't allow for 'what Might have been If'" -enabran tain, ds9 "stitch in time" novel :cool:

lbc: "the country should have realized sooner than it did, that the war was unwinnable"
-parts of the country did, which was one reason for our widespread dissent. what wasn't widely realized (and understandably so) was that bein bogged down there for 10 years & losing 58000 lives was Necessary; unfortunately for the people who lived there (but fortunate for the rest of history), nam was the place where it was demonstrated to communism that democracy was willing to pay a high price to slow or stop its forcible expansion around the globe. such a demonstration was crucial to our ultimate victory in the cold war :)

tor: i got a pal from hiroshima, and as you can imagine it's not exactly easy to for him to understand that as nightmarish a thing nukin his hometown was, it was still preferable to not doing so, given america's options at the time. but it was :dead:
vt

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by vulcantouch
-
tor: i got a pal from hiroshima, and as you can imagine it's not exactly easy to for him to understand that as nightmarish a thing nukin his hometown was, it was still preferable to not doing so, given america's options at the time. but it was :dead:
vt

I've often wondered whether the US government at the time knew just what kind of destructive power it had on it's hands. I still don't think they fully knew what they were dealing with.

stillakid
09-19-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


I've often wondered whether the US government at the time knew just what kind of destructive power it had on it's hands. I still don't think they fully knew what they were dealing with.

The scientists knew. Einstein knew. I'm sure the "government" knew, but didn't really quite comprehend it. Certainly, they didn't think ahead to the political ramifications of the future as the scientists did. Politicians have a way of seeing only what's in front of them and acting accordingly.

Captain Trips
09-19-2002, 02:19 PM
All they knew was that they had the power to end a long, bloody struggle instantly.

Truman struggled with the decision for a long, long time. He knew what the consequences were. He just felt that the consequences of not doing so were much, much worse.

Emperor Howdy
09-19-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the taking out of whole towns.

Ok, fine.

Me: "Hey Mister! What about the U.S. taking out whole towns?"

Japanese guy: "Oyu tomoshotzu nagatusma U.S. owinaki itzu!"



Sorry, Overlord, didn't understand a word he said....but I'm sure it was unacceptable. Let's bomb them again, and maybe kill a few Brits and Canadians as well while we're at it. Soldiers, women, babies, cows, dogs.....it doen't matter. All that's important is us, don't ya know? us? U.S.? The Supreme Super Power? God's Chosen Land? The Greatest Culture? The Finest Girls? The.......oh, wait......we really DO have the finest girls......
:D


Tell me this, Overlord: you're Canadian, right?

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy


Ok, fine.

Me: "Hey Mister! What about the U.S. taking out whole towns?"

Japanese guy: "Oyu tomoshotzu nagatusma U.S. owinaki itzu!"



Sorry, Overlord, didn't understand a word he said....but I'm sure it was unacceptable. Let's bomb them again, and maybe kill a few Brits and Canadians as well while we're at it. Soldiers, women, babies, cows, dogs.....it doen't matter. All that's important is us, don't ya know? us? U.S.? The Supreme Super Power? God's Chosen Land? The Greatest Culture? The Finest Girls? The.......oh, wait......we really DO have the finest girls......
:D


Tell me this, Overlord: you're Canadian, right?

the scary thing is....even though you're being sarcastic......quite a few americans ACTUALLY think this way.

And you do NOT have the finest girls. Though...you do have some fine ones...

I am Canadian.

derek
09-19-2002, 05:23 PM
As for the US freeing the world from the rule of stormtroopers......just who exactly are you reffering to?

well, we can start with the british stormtroopers in 1776, european stormtroopers in WW1 & 2, along with japan's stormtroopers, and now we're taking out the modern day tusken raiders, afganistan and iraq.:)

derek
09-19-2002, 05:25 PM
the scary thing is....even though you're being sarcastic......quite a few americans ACTUALLY think this way.

not only is america the best, but it's also the most generous country in the history of the world, by far.

The Overlord Returns
09-19-2002, 05:26 PM
LOL!!

Oh yes....that's right......I forgot how many americans like to think they single handedly one WW2.

And when has the world ever been in danger of being "ruled" by Iraq?

Have they ever made an attempt at world domination? If so...I guess I was sleeping.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-19-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by vulcantouch
lbc: "the country should have realized sooner than it did, that the war was unwinnable"
-parts of the country did, which was one reason for our widespread dissent. what wasn't widely realized (and understandably so) was that bein bogged down there for 10 years & losing 58000 lives was Necessary; unfortunately for the people who lived there (but fortunate for the rest of history), nam was the place where it was demonstrated to communism that democracy was willing to pay a high price to slow or stop its forcible expansion around the globe. such a demonstration was crucial to our ultimate victory in the cold war :)

What our leaders didn't realize at the time, and what many of us didn't recognize, was the fact that the forces of ** Chi Minh were more nationalistic than Communistic, more intent on liberation then spreading the gospel of Communism for it's followers. I believe I read that ** Chi Minh (who was Western educated) turned to the U.S. for help after WWII in it's struggle against the French. He expected that the U.S. would show sympathy towards Vietnam since the United States itsself was once a colony that struggled for it's independence against a mightier tyrannical foreign power. The U.S. scoffed at his requests.

It was then Minh sought and received help from Communist forces in China and Russia.

The ensuing war in Vietnam was hypocritical in a sense. Here the U.S., a country that espouses democracy against tyranny, was assuming the role of the British during the Revolutionary war, with Vietnam playing the role of the U.S. Minh and his forces were fighting the war more for liberation against another foreign power (and if you studied the history of Vietnam, it had been ruled by other country's for a couple thousand of years (including China and France)). It had just won it's independence from France after a bloody war during the 50's and here another nation was ready to carve up the country and rule it.

I think TOR has been expressing the views of a great many of citizens who live in country's that are allied with us on the war of terrorism. They are sympathetic with our actions, however they see that the U.S. all too often acts like the world's policeman, sometimes making rash decisions, and often enough without consulting with their allies.

That is why a majority of citizens in Canada, Britain and probably a great many other nations are concerned with our recent overtones in regards to the war on Iraq.

Emperor Howdy
09-20-2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
LOL!!

Oh yes....that's right......I forgot how many americans like to think they single handedly one WW2.

And when has the world ever been in danger of being "ruled" by Iraq?

Have they ever made an attempt at world domination? If so...I guess I was sleeping.


Jeeez, Overlord....what's with the bitter attitude towards the States? Are you mad about Due South getting canned or something? We're allies, neighbors, and friends. Don't be so damn snippy! :rolleyes:


I don't know anyone who believes the U.S. "single-handedly" won WWII. It was an Allied effort. Actually, Britian lost about 30,000 more men than we did, around 325,000 or so. We lost around 295,000.






Oh, and Canada lost around 39,000.



As for Iraq, no one is worried about being "ruled" by them, believe me. Their inability to rule their own territory expresses that. Yet to say that Iraq, or more specifically, Saddam Hussein and his brat kids are not a concern is absurd. Jesus, his own people secretly want the f****r dead....their just too scared to say it. The guy is an abomination who I truly believe would use weapons of mass destruction on us, Israel, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. if given the opportunity. While you sit comfortably in front of your computer screen sipping a Molson's and looking for the Teemto wave, Iraqi women are beheaded in front of their children because someone said she's a prostitute. Come on, man, you know what he's all about, don't you? I think it's about time something is done about it. I wish it wasn't an issue...trust me...I wish the panty-waists in Iraq would take him out. You better believe that if Saddam was the President here, he'd be loooong dead. If they can't however.....we will.....whether The Angry Canadian Returns likes it or not. :p

2-1B
09-20-2002, 03:01 AM
What?
** Chin Minh can't get past the auto-censor? :p

Emperor Howdy
09-20-2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
The ensuing war in Vietnam was hypocritical in a sense. Here the U.S., a country that espouses democracy against tyranny, was assuming the role of the British during the Revolutionary war, with Vietnam playing the role of the U.S. Minh and his forces were fighting the war more for liberation against another foreign power


Oh yeah, I forgot what a thoughtful liberator of love H0 Chi Minh and the Viet-Minh forces were. I recall many stories of his army flying around on magic happy carpets bringing Easter baskets full of candy and toys to the South Vietnamese before annihilating villiage after villiage of farmers who could give a s**t about politics or did not see Communism as "liberation". What was our evil government thinking!?



That is why a majority of citizens in Canada, Britain and probably a great many other nations are concerned with our recent overtones in regards to the war on Iraq.


All I can say is "damned if we do....damned if we don't". People want action....then they're mad when we take it. There's always going to be "someone concerned somewhere" whatever the hell we're doing. Oh well.


Weird....Jean Chretien's cool with it. Tony Blair's cool with it. I guess they're part of the secret conspiracy too? :p

Emperor Howdy
09-20-2002, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
What?
Moths have wongs? :p


:D

2-1B
09-20-2002, 04:48 AM
Funny thing is, it doesn't censor the ** in Emperor Howdy. :confused:

------------------------

Ah yes, you old scamp, the mothballs return to haunt me.
I should send that moth ** back out on the street - I am it's pimp, ya know. ;)

stillakid
09-20-2002, 09:50 AM
Santa Claus can't even post "** ** **" here. That's sad.:cry:

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy



Jeeez, Overlord....what's with the bitter attitude towards the States? Are you mad about Due South getting canned or something? We're allies, neighbors, and friends. Don't be so damn snippy! :rolleyes:


I don't know anyone who believes the U.S. "single-handedly" won WWII. It was an Allied effort. Actually, Britian lost about 30,000 more men than we did, around 325,000 or so. We lost around 295,000.






Oh, and Canada lost around 39,000.



As for Iraq, no one is worried about being "ruled" by them, believe me. Their inability to rule their own territory expresses that. Yet to say that Iraq, or more specifically, Saddam Hussein and his brat kids are not a concern is absurd. Jesus, his own people secretly want the f****r dead....their just too scared to say it. The guy is an abomination who I truly believe would use weapons of mass destruction on us, Israel, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. if given the opportunity. While you sit comfortably in front of your computer screen sipping a Molson's and looking for the Teemto wave, Iraqi women are beheaded in front of their children because someone said she's a prostitute. Come on, man, you know what he's all about, don't you? I think it's about time something is done about it. I wish it wasn't an issue...trust me...I wish the panty-waists in Iraq would take him out. You better believe that if Saddam was the President here, he'd be loooong dead. If they can't however.....we will.....whether The Angry Canadian Returns likes it or not. :p

Most of those quotes are responses to derek. HE does seem to think that the US single handedly won WW2. He also seems to think the US will be saving the world from Iraq.

Ok, lets see....... I'll make myself more clear here, or atleast attempt to.

You are right. We are allies and friends, and I love many americans. I have many american friends, and there are cities in the states that I consider second homes. I was down in Manhattan as soon as I found a chance after 9/ 11, mourning the loss with one of my favorite places in the world.

The thing is, americans sometime fail to realize that the world outside doesn't blindly support everything they do. Like any friend of mine, if he's doing something I do not agree with, I'll tell him. Americans and their patriotism, which I do respect and admire, often walk this fine line between patriotism and nationalism. They also every so often attempt to bully, or rush the rest of the world into towing their line. There is no perfect example of this than the situation at the un regarding Iraq.

First bush goes before the UN stating the need to force Iraqs hand in terms of weapons inspectors and their return to bagdhad.

Iraq opens the door and states an unconditional return for the inspectors. Suddenly, thats not good enough for Bush. Why? because it stalls his war fervour. Bush wants a war with Iraq so badly, you can practically see the froth coming from his lips. He's now shown decisively that HE will not be appeased until he gets his war and finishes his daddys failure. IF iraq is willing to comply, then we start there. You don't go rushing in and starting a war when there is no need to.

As to what saddam is all about....yes I am aware. I know he's trouble. I also know he's a petty dicator obsessed with power, which is why he won't send a nuke your way, as it would mean the definite end of his dictatorship. And please, don't kid yourself in thinking the US war machine is going to go in and save all the poor women being be headed....I doubt that's crossed their mind once. Lets atleast be honest about the reasons for any war that will happen. And don't say because saddam was involved in the 9/ 11 plot.

As for america.....well...I'll be there again in the next few months. You've got a wonderful country.....don't get me wrong. You're attitudes could use a bit of work though ;)

And...I don't want the Teemto wave. I also, like other real canadian beer drinkers, don't touch Molsons. Creemore springs all the way. Ofcourse...I really shouldn't expect an american to know much about beer..... ;)

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by derek


not only is america the best, but it's also the most generous country in the history of the world, by far.

BEST in the history of civilization?

Can you back that up somehow??

derek
09-20-2002, 01:20 PM
just look at how far the united states has come in such a short period of time compaired to ANY other country in the history of civitilization.

we are the only country who has embraced freedom and individual rights and it has allowed us to flourish.

the entire world relies on us economically and whether they admit it or not looks to us for leadership.

we're the only country on the planet that people actually risk their lives to get into.

we bankrupted the evil soviet empire, rebuilt europe and japan, and brougnt demoracy to those regions.

we are the country that defends and feeds the world, while your prime minister calls us selfish

we're so nice, we let mike myers, bryan adams, shanaia twain, john candy, rick moranis, celine dion and alanis morissette into our country to become millionaires.:)

and we gave canada major league sports teams so they wouldn't have to watch so much hockey or ice fishing.;)

stillakid
09-20-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by derek
just look at how far the untied states has come in such a short period of time compaired to ANY other country in the history of civitilization.

we are the only country who has embraced freedom and individual rights and it has allowed us to flourish.

the entire world relies on us economically and whether they admit it or not looks to us for leadership.

we're the only country on the planet that people actually risk their lives to get into.

we bankrupted the evil soviet empire, rebuilt europe and japan, and brougnt demoracy to those regions.

we are the country that defends and feeds the world, while your prime minister calls us selfish

we're so nice, we let mike myers, bryan adams, shanaia twain, john candy, rick moranis, celine dion and alanis morissette into our country to become millionaires.:)

and we gave canada major league sports teams so they wouldn't have to watch so much hockey or ice fishing.;)

We also allow any foreigners the right to come and work on our films in the states while we are not permitted to go north and work there. That's mighty nice of us! :) But nobody really needs to come here to work, I suppose, since runaway production has pretty much decimated the livelihoods of thousands of US workers. All's fair with Love and NAFTA. :)

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by derek
just look at how far the untied states has come in such a short period of time compaired to ANY other country in the history of civitilization.

we are the only country who has embraced freedom and individual rights and it has allowed us to flourish.

the entire world relies on us economically and whether they admit it or not looks to us for leadership.

we're the only country on the planet that people actually risk their lives to get into.

we bankrupted the evil soviet empire, rebuilt europe and japan, and brougnt demoracy to those regions.

we are the country that defends and feeds the world, while your prime minister calls us selfish

we're so nice, we let mike myers, bryan adams, shanaia twain, john candy, rick moranis, celine dion and alanis morissette into our country to become millionaires.:)

and we gave canada major league sports teams so they wouldn't have to watch so much hockey or ice fishing.;)

Ummm......

I'm sorry.....are Canada, Britain, France, Germany totalitarian states all of a sudden? Did I miss a meeting? You are most certainly not the only country to embrace freedom and individual rights. And, they're a quite a few countries that have done a better job of it than the US.

YOU also rely on the entire world economically, whether YOU like it or not. You are beginning to rely more and more on Canadian Resources, and it's your dependance on Mid east oil that's got us in this mess w/ Iraq. And yes, we look to you for leadership, along with the rest of the G8

People risk their lives on a daily basis getting into Canada as well.....Boat loads in fact. What on earth made you think yours was the only country that refugees risk their lives to come to?

THe soviet empire had a BIG hand in bankrupting ITSELF. I would not take all the credit for that my friend. And yes, you rebuilt Japan after decimating a large chunk of it and killing Tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

MY prime minister called the western world selfish. He included Canada in this. Get your facts straight before you decry them.

LOL......you bought albums and saw movies. How lovely of you.

You gave us major league sports teams? Did the U.S. Government make amendments in it's bill of rights, making it law to give Canada sports teams? That's just a ridiculous statement.

Besides........unlike your national pastime.....a hockey player actually has to be an athlete..........and be in shape. Not only that....but we ripped you a new one in the olympics.
;)

derek
09-20-2002, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry.....are Canada, Britain, France, Germany totalitarian states all of a sudden? Did I miss a meeting? You are most certainly not the only country to embrace freedom and individual rights. And, they're a quite a few countries that have done a better job of it than the US

"totalitarian"? no. borderline socialists? yes indeed.
who has "embraced freedom better than the U.S.?


it's your dependance on Mid east oil that's got us in this mess w/ Iraq

canada isn't in this "mess". they're just in it for show.


THe soviet empire had a BIG hand in bankrupting ITSELF

only while trying to keep up with us in the arms race. if we had not built nukes like the pacifists wanted, the soviet union may still be around.


you rebuilt Japan after decimating a large chunk of it and killing Tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

there are no innocents in war, especially if they live in a totalitarian society. at the least they are guilty for not rising up against their leaders. and besides, they drew first blood.....


LOL......you bought albums and saw movies. How lovely of you.

this was a joke...lighten up.:)


You gave us major league sports teams? Did the U.S. Government make amendments in it's bill of rights, making it law to give Canada sports teams? That's just a ridiculous statement

this was also a joke, an attempt to end a serious discussion with some humor. i thought you were canadian not french.:)


Besides........unlike your national pastime.....a hockey player actually has to be an athlete..........and be in shape. Not only that....but we ripped you a new one in the olympics

yet another joke on my part. but hey good for canada, they won the olympic hockey match.:)

i never said the U.S. was perfect. we've got plenty of problems, but there is no better country. if there is some hidden land of freedom, please direct me in it's direction. i'd love to settle there.:)

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by derek


"totalitarian"? no. borderline socialists? yes indeed.
who has "embraced freedom better than the U.S.?



canada isn't in this "mess". they're just in it for show.



only while trying to keep up with us in the arms race. if we had not built nukes like the pacifists wanted, the soviet union may still be around.



there are no innocents in war, especially if they live in a totalitarian society. at the least they are guilty for not rising up against their leaders. and besides, they drew first blood.....



this was a joke...lighten up.:)



this was also a joke, an attempt to end a serious discussion with some humor. i thought you were canadian not french.:)



yet another joke on my part. but hey good for canada, they won the olympic hockey match.:)


Borderline socialist? Do you know what socialism is?
and, anyone of those nations listed, for starters.

The entire U.N. is in this mess. And what the heck does "for show" mean?

THe soviet unions fall is a "bit" more complicated than what you're making it out to be

Ok, I'm going to assume you didn't THINK at all in that remark about Japan, as it could EASILY be turned around to state that the victims of 9/11 were not innocent. There are indeed Innocents in war. There were 10 million killed in nazi camps, and there were hundreds bombed every night in the UK. Your statement is ridiculous.

Mine was sort of a joke too.

again......thought I was being funny too....hence the winky face.

And yes...we did win the hockey match........ ofcourse.......it took mighty yugoslavia to bend the dream team over the table;)

derek
09-20-2002, 03:12 PM
Borderline socialist? Do you know what socialism is?

socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. i say borderline, because that's where those countries are headed. unfortunately, the united states is also creeping in that direction, we're just moving slower.:cry:


anyone of those nations listed, for starters.
please elaborate. i'm seriously curious in your answer.


The entire U.N. is in this mess. And what the heck does "for show" mean?

the UN is the cause of this mess. they are a joke, as bush nicely told them last week. canada is not serious about defeating evil dictators like sadam, or the taliban. they only sent a handfull of troops to they could say,"hey, america, look here! we sent soldiers too!"


Ok, I'm going to assume you didn't THINK at all in that remark about Japan, as it could EASILY be turned around to state that the victims of 9/11 were not innocent.

this is the problem with pacifists. they equate any use of force as wrong, and all who are on the receiving end of it as innocent.
the difference between the U.S. citizens on september 11, 2001 and the empire of japan in 1945 is obvious. we were at war with japan, in a war they started. they were evil. they were given the opportunity to surrender. they refused and suffered the consequences.


There are indeed Innocents in war. There were 10 million killed in nazi camps, and there were hundreds bombed every night in the UK. Your statement is ridiculous

perhaps i was not clear on my analysis here. i draw a very straight line between good and evil. countries like germany, italy, and japan, who started world war 2, are evil.

countires like the united states and england, along with the persicuted jews are the good.

if a good country, or people are attacked by an evil country or group, the good has every right to use whatever means necessary to protect and defend themselves. if any so called "innocents" reside within the borders of the evil country, and they are killed by the good, who is trying to defend itself and or defeat the evil, the blood of the so called "innocents" is on the hands of the evil do-ers.

i hold the government of japan solely responsible for those who died as a result of our 2 atomic bombs.

in the same breath, i hold militant islam responsible for the terrorists attacks we suffered 1 year ago.

there is no contridiction here. we are the good, at the time japan was the evil, as is iraq, saudi arabia, syria, etc...

The Overlord Returns
09-20-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by derek


socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. i say borderline, because that's where those countries are headed. unfortunately, the united states is also creeping in that direction, we're just moving slower.:cry:


please elaborate. i'm seriously curious in your answer.



the UN is the cause of this mess. they are a joke, as bush nicely told them last week. canada is not serious about defeating evil dictators like sadam, or the taliban. they only sent a handfull of troops to they could say,"hey, america, look here! we sent soldiers too!"



this is the problem with pacifists. they equate any use of force as wrong, and all who are on the receiving end of it as innocent.
the difference between the U.S. citizens on september 11, 2001 and the empire of japan in 1945 is obvious. we were at war with japan, in a war they started. they were evil. they were given the opportunity to surrender. they refused and suffered the consequences.



perhaps i was not clear on my analysis here. i draw a very straight line between good and evil. countries like germany, italy, and japan, who started world war 2, are evil.

countires like the united states and england, along with the persicuted jews are the good.

if a good country, or people are attacked by an evil country or group, the good has every right to use whatever means necessary to protect and defend themselves. if any so called "innocents" reside within the borders of the evil country, and they are killed by the good, who is trying to defend itself and or defeat the evil, the blood of the so called "innocents" is on the hands of the evil do-ers.

i hold the government of japan solely responsible for those who died as a result of out 2 atomic bombs.

in the same breath, i hold militant islam responsible for the terrorists attacks we suffered 1 year ago.

there is no contridiction here. we are the good, at the time japan was the evil, as is iraq, saudi arabia, syria, etc...

Well.....in terms of elaborating.....

It becomes a grey area when you talk technical freedoms on paper, and actual implementation. Now, correct me if I am wrong,because I may be out of date but...

In certain states is abortion, a womans individual right to choose, still illegal?

And suicide, I believe, is still a criminal offence in the US.

Not to mention that in the very recent past black people unnoficially did not have the right to be black, and were killed for it. As recent as two years ago a black man was the victim of a lynch mob style attack in the south. I guess his freedoms didn't count.

And up until recently, homosexuality was illegal as well.......hmmm...

The innocent people who died in the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were not at war. They were farmers, fisherman, women and children. No different from the business men and women in the twin towers. Besides, you said in war. The idiots who hit the towers consider themselves "at war" with the west, and more specifically, the US.

As for what you said about Canada and it's assistance to the US in afghanistan...well....... thats a moronic statement. The US requested aid from us, as well as other nations. We sent troops,as well as medical aid for YOUR US troops. And ofcourse for thanks you blew up 4 of our soldiers.


As for the UN being a joke.......well..........I do believe Iraq has now agreed to unconditional inspections again....ofcourse....Bush wants a war...so suddenly what he first requested isn't good enough.

BTW....it was Canadas JTF2 that found and detained several high ranking officials in al qaeda, which led to invaluable info about the organisation....but I guess that was laughable as well.

derek
09-20-2002, 04:03 PM
abortion is legal in all 50 states.......suicide is illegal, but that's rather redundant......the 3 men who killed james byrd were all convicted. 2 are on death row and 1 received life in prison.......as for our history of racism, we're not perfect, but we've more than tried to make up for it.......technically it's sodomy that's illegal in some areas, but that is rarely, if ever enforced.


The idiots who hit the towers consider themselves "at war" with the west, and more specifically, the US.

there is a huge difference between "legally declaired war" and some religious nuts attacking a civilian target.


As for what you said about Canada and it's assistance to the US in afghanistan...well....... thats a moronic statement. The US requested aid from us, as well as other nations. We sent troops,as well as medical aid for YOUR US troops. And ofcourse for thanks you blew up 4 of our soldiers

i stand by my statement. i'm no expert on the subject, but i have heard interviews with former canadian ambassadors and military experts who have said that "canada's military is very under funded and under equiped and unable to sustain itself in the field." their words,not mine.


As for the UN being a joke.......well..........I do believe Iraq has now agreed to unconditional inspections again....ofcourse....Bush wants a war...so suddenly what he first requested isn't good enough

iraq has not agreed to unconditional inspections. they only agreed to inspections of military instillations. they are trying to delay and stall. they are liars who have broken all mandates set forth by the UN and the UN has done nothing.

in regards to a war, bush can't win here. those same people who are against an invasion of iraq are the same ones crying the loudest that the government didn't do enough to prevent the sept. 11 terrorist attacks. the next attack could very well be a nuke set off in the U.S. courtesy of iraq. what should we do? play his inspection game and hope he dosen't give a nuke to some islamic terrorists?

on a side note, i just heard that the U.S. imports more oil from canada than it does saudi arabia. could it be canada's government would be upset if we turned iraq into "New Texas" and had our own supply of cheap oil? and yall call us selfish?:confused: ;)

Emperor Howdy
09-20-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by The Overlord Returns


Well.....in terms of elaborating.....

It becomes a grey area when you talk technical freedoms on paper, and actual implementation. Now, correct me if I am wrong,because I may be out of date but...

In certain states is abortion, a womans individual right to choose, still illegal?

And suicide, I believe, is still a criminal offence in the US.

Not to mention that in the very recent past black people unnoficially did not have the right to be black, and were killed for it. As recent as two years ago a black man was the victim of a lynch mob style attack in the south. I guess his freedoms didn't count.

And up until recently, homosexuality was illegal as well.......hmmm...

The innocent people who died in the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki were not at war. They were farmers, fisherman, women and children. No different from the business men and women in the twin towers. Besides, you said in war. The idiots who hit the towers consider themselves "at war" with the west, and more specifically, the US.

As for what you said about Canada and it's assistance to the US in afghanistan...well....... thats a moronic statement. The US requested aid from us, as well as other nations. We sent troops,as well as medical aid for YOUR US troops. And ofcourse for thanks you blew up 4 of our soldiers.


As for the UN being a joke.......well..........I do believe Iraq has now agreed to unconditional inspections again....ofcourse....Bush wants a war...so suddenly what he first requested isn't good enough.

BTW....it was Canadas JTF2 that found and detained several high ranking officials in al qaeda, which led to invaluable info about the organisation....but I guess that was laughable as well.



Oh God. :rolleyes:



Overlord....um.....buddy....(whistles through teeth)....over here....in Realityville! You wouldn't by chance be comparing the United States of America to.......umm.....how should I put this...........well..."Canada" (snicker, snicker snicker), would you?

Don't get me wrong.....I think it's adorable....and sometimes I just want to hug you and put you in my pocket, so throughout the day when I'm feeling blue I can take out my little Kanuk and get a good laugh.


Me: "Little Kanuk..I feel sad...tell me a story..."

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and are good at ice skating....we're MUCH cooler than America"

Me: "Bwahahahahaha....ooh me....God, I love you Little Kanuk!!"



Little Kanuk is great for office parties too!


Me: (whispers) "Hey everyone! Come here....you gotta see this......ok,ok, quiet, quiet.......just listen.......................(raises voice)....Little Kanuk?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and our police force is made up completely of horses. We're MUCH cooler than America!"

Crowd: "BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........."

Me: (whispers) "No, no, no, no, no...listen.....there's more.........(raises voice)...so, umm, what else Little Kanuk?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and Canada alone would have no hope in keeping the peace without the military might of the U.S., who we've been freeloading off of for years. Any First or Second World country, and a few Third World countries have the ability to defeat Canada alone in a military engagement. We're MUCH cooler than America!"

Crowd: "BWWWAAAHahahahahaha....(man looks at wife)..Well, honey, looks like we're moving to Canada!!........BWAHAHAHAHA!"

Me: "That's very interesting, Little Kanuk. So tell me.....I'm thinking about starting with a Raspbery Champagne Framboise, followed by fresh Lobster Bisque with an Island of Lobster Mousse. Perhaps some fresh Jumbo Shrimp garnished with Scallops Mousse, Champagne Sauce, or Feuillete of Chanterelle Mushrooms with baby Asparagus or Roasted Garlic Cream Sauce and Chives......what would the "Francais" in you recommend?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? Beer.

Crowd: "OOOOOOOH MY GOODNESS!!! BWAHAHAHAHHA.......BEER!.........BWAHAHAHA!!"

Little Kanuk: "And did I mention we're alcoholics and MUCH cooler than America?"

Crowd: "Ooooooooooooh, indeed you did Little Kanuk.....indeeeeed you did!! Bwwahahahahhahahahahaha"



Me: (turns off light and puts Little Kanuk in matchbox on nightstand) Goodnight, Little Kanuk. You were hirlarious today. Thank you. Think of some more good ones, ok? See ya in the morning".

Little Kanuk: "Don't yoo woory aboot it, ey? I've got more idiotic statements than you can shake a stick at. BUUUURP!."

Emperor Howdy
09-20-2002, 09:51 PM
......and just so you know, Overlord, the above post is only in fun....I'm not trying to offend you, or any Canadians for that matter. Like I said, I consider us brothers. Honestly, I have no problem with Canada.....too bad you have such deep-seeded dislike of us....or our policies....or government...or attitudes......or whatever the hell it is that you feel the need to nit-pick our country. Thankfully, most Canadians don't feel the way you do. I guess you're like a rare rebellious "thug" Canadian... ;)

QLD
09-20-2002, 10:05 PM
OH MY CHRIST!!! That was hilarious.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-20-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
Oh yeah, I forgot what a thoughtful liberator of love H0 Chi Minh and the Viet-Minh forces were. I recall many stories of his army flying around on magic happy carpets bringing Easter baskets full of candy and toys to the South Vietnamese before annihilating villiage after villiage of farmers who could give a s**t about politics or did not see Communism as "liberation". What was our evil government thinking!?

No one said that fighting a war is like picking daisies. I believe it has been discussed that it is inevitable innocents, on both sides of a military conflict, are going to lose their lives. In the Vietnam war, that rang true. And the Vietcong weren't the only guys committing atrocities. Have you heard of the My Lai incident, in where hundreds of mostly unarmed old men, women, and children were slaughtered and then were thrown in a ditch by young American soldiers? There were several of these incidents that occured throughout the prolonged war during the decade that we were there. The point being that no side can claim the high ground when it comes to atrocities. My other point dealt with the fact that Communism was just a front for the true intent of the war: To liberate the entire country of Vietnam, at any cost.

And Overlord I think has brought up some major points regarding U.S. foreign policy. There is a reason why the majority of the population of the G8 nations are against the impending war with Iraq and are distrustful of our policy in general. It isn't all because of stupidity and/or ignorance. Our foreign policy since we became a superpower has been full of holes. One of the most horrendous acts we have committed over decades has been the supporting, fortifying, and aiding of leader's of nations with less than stellar records of governing. This has been evident through our policies on Latin America over the years.

The U.S. has supported many a regime of dictatorships that have atrocious human rights records, have suppressed democracy (a form of government that we can all agree is superior to others) and poor economic policies (mainly keeping the accumulation of wealth with 1% of the population in some cases). We have even taken parts in the demise of leaders who aim to end these dictatorships and attempt to free their fellow citizens of their struggles (as in the case of Chile). Basically, we have allowed the oppression of a great many of a people, so that our country can benefit, by one way or another, from having these people in power.

And for those who like to divide the world by good and evil, well, good and evil ain't so black and white. It may seem simple to do that, but it is more complicated than that. Do I believe the U.S. and most of the industrial nations are good? Yes. Do I believe that many of their foreign policies and economic policies are good? Yes and no. There are a lot of holes in those areas, a few I already discussed.

It isn't just blind hatred that certain groups who live in countries in the Middle East are willing to lash out against the U.S. There are reasons why that hatred exists. True, a lot of has to do with our lifestyle, our openness and tolerance, but a lot of it is because of our sometimes oppressive and unfair policies.


And for the record it's ** Chi Minh not ** Chi Minh ;)




just wanted to clear that up.

Emperor Howdy
09-21-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner


No one said that fighting a war is like picking daisies. I believe it has been discussed that it is inevitable innocents, on both sides of a military conflict, are going to lose their lives. In the Vietnam war, that rang true. And the Vietcong weren't the only guys committing atrocities. Have you heard of the My Lai incident, in where hundreds of mostly unarmed old men, women, and children were slaughtered and then were thrown in a ditch by young American soldiers? There were several of these incidents that occured throughout the prolonged war during the decade that we were there. The point being that no side can claim the high ground when it comes to atrocities. My other point dealt with the fact that Communism was just a front for the true intent of the war: To liberate the entire country of Vietnam, at any cost.

And Overlord I think has brought up some major points regarding U.S. foreign policy. There is a reason why the majority of the population of the G8 nations are against the impending war with Iraq and are distrustful of our policy in general. It isn't all because of stupidity and/or ignorance. Our foreign policy since we became a superpower has been full of holes. One of the most horrendous acts we have committed over decades has been the supporting, fortifying, and aiding of leader's of nations with less than stellar records of governing. This has been evident through our policies on Latin America over the years.

The U.S. has supported many a regime of dictatorships that have atrocious human rights records, have suppressed democracy (a form of government that we can all agree is superior to others) and poor economic policies (mainly keeping the accumulation of wealth with 1% of the population in some cases). We have even taken parts in the demise of leaders who aim to end these dictatorships and attempt to free their fellow citizens of their struggles (as in the case of Chile). Basically, we have allowed the oppression of a great many of a people, so that our country can benefit, by one way or another, from having these people in power.

And for those who like to divide the world by good and evil, well, good and evil ain't so black and white. It may seem simple to do that, but it is more complicated than that. Do I believe the U.S. and most of the industrial nations are good? Yes. Do I believe that many of their foreign policies and economic policies are good? Yes and no. There are a lot of holes in those areas, a few I already discussed.

It isn't just blind hatred that certain groups who live in countries in the Middle East are willing to lash out against the U.S. There are reasons why that hatred exists. True, a lot of has to do with our lifestyle, our openness and tolerance, but a lot of it is because of our sometimes oppressive and unfair policies.


And for the record it's ** Chi Minh not ** Chi Minh ;)




just wanted to clear that up.


Oh, so you want to play like that, do ya? Fine....now YOU get the obnoxious S.W.P.P.M.!!! :evil:

:Pirate:

Emperor Howdy
09-21-2002, 12:41 AM
Errrrrr....that is.......when you clean out your mailbox! :rolleyes:

2-1B
09-21-2002, 01:21 AM
*ducks flying chunks of steak and cheese*




derek, that is such a joke ! :mad:
When they announced Iraq "agreed" to inspections, only to clarify that it only applies to "military installations" . . . :rolleyes:
Well, the :rolleyes: icon is not big enough to show my disgust when I heard that. :(

Emperor Howdy
09-21-2002, 02:53 AM
I hope this sums up the Iraq issue:


AllYourBase (http://pics.steakandcheese.com/saddam.gif)

plasticfetish
09-21-2002, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Quite-Long Dong
OH MY CHRIST!!! That was hilarious.

I have to second that.

Whatever am I doing up so late reading these posts? Oh, perhaps laughing my a** off at that one ... Howdy.

But seriously. I think we're all aware that the US is a great big blundering monster that's been nervously fighting to stay on it's feet for the past few hundred years. We fight the good fights, we fight the bad fights ... you love us, you hate us ... most of the time I love us and hate us too. Though no doubt we've probably both cured and caused most of the major problems that have occurred in the world over the past century... I do know that I just had two of my teeth fixed for like $35 and I'm pretty pleased with the fact that I only have to in most cases READ about other peoples problems. Perhaps SOMEDAY the only thing I will have to worry about is which brain dead pop-star they'll be shooting into space next.

What a fantastic time we live in ... I think most people don't realize just how much better things will be over the next few decades because of the sacrifices that so many people before them have made (and not just Americans, NOTHING is "just" Americans.) No doubt the world will continue to evolve into some sort of a creepy imitation of an "Orwell" or "Huxley" book, but at least we all have the freedom to sit around right now and debate, debate, debate. I just hope that in one way or another the rest of the world is free to join in on the debate very soon. We really could use some fresh ideas around here.

The Overlord Returns
09-21-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy




Oh God. :rolleyes:



Overlord....um.....buddy....(whistles through teeth)....over here....in Realityville! You wouldn't by chance be comparing the United States of America to.......umm.....how should I put this...........well..."Canada" (snicker, snicker snicker), would you?

Don't get me wrong.....I think it's adorable....and sometimes I just want to hug you and put you in my pocket, so throughout the day when I'm feeling blue I can take out my little Kanuk and get a good laugh.


Me: "Little Kanuk..I feel sad...tell me a story..."

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and are good at ice skating....we're MUCH cooler than America"

Me: "Bwahahahahaha....ooh me....God, I love you Little Kanuk!!"



Little Kanuk is great for office parties too!


Me: (whispers) "Hey everyone! Come here....you gotta see this......ok,ok, quiet, quiet.......just listen.......................(raises voice)....Little Kanuk?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and our police force is made up completely of horses. We're MUCH cooler than America!"

Crowd: "BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.........."

Me: (whispers) "No, no, no, no, no...listen.....there's more.........(raises voice)...so, umm, what else Little Kanuk?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? We're alcoholics and Canada alone would have no hope in keeping the peace without the military might of the U.S., who we've been freeloading off of for years. Any First or Second World country, and a few Third World countries have the ability to defeat Canada alone in a military engagement. We're MUCH cooler than America!"

Crowd: "BWWWAAAHahahahahaha....(man looks at wife)..Well, honey, looks like we're moving to Canada!!........BWAHAHAHAHA!"

Me: "That's very interesting, Little Kanuk. So tell me.....I'm thinking about starting with a Raspbery Champagne Framboise, followed by fresh Lobster Bisque with an Island of Lobster Mousse. Perhaps some fresh Jumbo Shrimp garnished with Scallops Mousse, Champagne Sauce, or Feuillete of Chanterelle Mushrooms with baby Asparagus or Roasted Garlic Cream Sauce and Chives......what would the "Francais" in you recommend?"

Little Kanuk: "How's it going, ey? Beer.

Crowd: "OOOOOOOH MY GOODNESS!!! BWAHAHAHAHHA.......BEER!.........BWAHAHAHA!!"

Little Kanuk: "And did I mention we're alcoholics and MUCH cooler than America?"

Crowd: "Ooooooooooooh, indeed you did Little Kanuk.....indeeeeed you did!! Bwwahahahahhahahahahaha"



Me: (turns off light and puts Little Kanuk in matchbox on nightstand) Goodnight, Little Kanuk. You were hirlarious today. Thank you. Think of some more good ones, ok? See ya in the morning".

Little Kanuk: "Don't yoo woory aboot it, ey? I've got more idiotic statements than you can shake a stick at. BUUUURP!."

You know ....I was wondering where you'd been all day yesterday...........I guess now I have my answer;)

The Overlord Returns
09-21-2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
......and just so you know, Overlord, the above post is only in fun....I'm not trying to offend you, or any Canadians for that matter. Like I said, I consider us brothers. Honestly, I have no problem with Canada.....too bad you have such deep-seeded dislike of us....or our policies....or government...or attitudes......or whatever the hell it is that you feel the need to nit-pick our country. Thankfully, most Canadians don't feel the way you do. I guess you're like a rare rebellious "thug" Canadian... ;)

I find it funny that you'd bother with this disclaimer. You clearly couldn't give a rats @$$ about how many canadians you offended with this.....especially me I'm sure.

Luckily we canadians have a good sense of humour......and are quicker (and better at, apparently) to make fun of ourselves than any american.

As for the whole brothers thing...I'm guessing you didn't bother reading my reply to your earlier questioning of my "hatred" of the states. I'll refer you to that.

BTW......you might be surprised at just how many canadians have a negative view of your govt. policies....and most definitely your attitudes.......we still like you though.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-21-2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Emperor Howdy
Errrrrr....that is.......when you clean out your mailbox! :rolleyes:

Howdy,



Mailbox clean. You may commence with the por--errr.......




Baby pictures.


Yes.


Baby pictures





That's the ticket. . .

vulcantouch
12-04-2002, 12:58 PM
in case interested, here's (http://salon.com/books/wire/2002/12/03/conspiracy/print.html) about that book i referred to in post 46 above :)
vt