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View Full Version : How did Palpatine secretly finance the Grand Army? That's stretching credulity



JediTricks
04-10-2013, 02:31 PM
I was thinking about this recently, in AOTC we see that "Sifo Dyas" has ordered a clone army from the Geonosians for the Republic. Lucas says on the ROTS DVD commentary that Sifo Dyas is Palpatine, which is fine. My problem is that, even as chancellor, how the hell did Palpatine funnel such a large amount of funds away from the Republic to pay for the clones, the creation of their armor and weapons, and the ships they were using?

In our country, defense is 2/3s of a trillion dollars annually (although about 6% of that goes to retiree pay, which wouldn't affect a new military), that's 20% of our overall annual budget. If Palpatine siphoned off 20% of the Republic's budget, someone would likely have noticed, that's got to be a significant chunk of change. Even if Palps secretly used the credit card, that's so much credit that it'd show up in the system.

And keep in mind that Palpatine's startup costs were over a period of a decade all in secret, including development of clone soldiers, design and fabrication of arms and equipment, the massive undertaking of creating a fleet of starships and support craft, plus training for all of it.

Imagine if George Bush had siphoned off $6 trillion dollars over the course of a decade starting in '91 with no oversight or accountability or anything to show for it, don't you think someone would have said something? Of course they would have. I doubt any of us can even imagine what $6 trillion really would look like. And the Republic is thousands of times as big as the US.

Are we really to expect that the cloners of Kamino are going to extend a massive line of credit to a random guy claiming to be a Jedi without batting an eyelid? AND they had to do so in silence, no less. What about the shipyards, what about the materials needed to build giant ships to haul the clones around? They all had to be paid for the decade of work they did, and paid quietly so as not to draw attention to their activities.

So how does Chancellor Palpatine finance in secret this clone army? And how does this not faze someone, especially the Jedi who just accept this perfectly-timed thing created in their names?

I don't think he can, I think that's a plot hole in the movie and in the prequels in general, but it's the kind of plot hole expected of Star Wars.

El Chuxter
04-10-2013, 06:50 PM
Lucas should've communicated better with the guys doing EU. He's said it was "obvious" it was Palpatine; yet, there's now a full backstory for Sifo-Dyas, friend of Dooku, who ordered the clones.

Bel-Cam Jos
04-10-2013, 07:40 PM
Lucas also said he had nine, even twelve, stories he planned to tell about the legal loophole that allowed Palpy to Siphon These-es that money off. And that Boba Fett was dead when that happened, not rescued from a pit. Originally, JarJar was going to be the source, but the bad publicity after TPM meant he had to re-write the script for AOTC (which was the reason it was late back in 2000).

Yeah.

Darth Metalmute
04-10-2013, 09:08 PM
Maybe it was a POD service? Sifo Dyas could have placed the delivery and stuck the republic with the bill. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a service up front that I wouldn't see and judge for ten years.

Also, Palpatine was a force user, so I imagine he could have "forced" donations from higher class people. I'm sure over his life time he could have saved up a good portion of money by doing this. Plus, his master was probably doing the same thing.

JediTricks
04-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Lucas should've communicated better with the guys doing EU. He's said it was "obvious" it was Palpatine; yet, there's now a full backstory for Sifo-Dyas, friend of Dooku, who ordered the clones.Yeah, I saw that while doing a little light research for the post. They've gone all bonkers with this character that Lucas felt was "obviously" Palpatine, and had even named "Sido-Dyas" originally before getting cutesy.

Still, I'm going to stick with Palpatine is Sifo-Dyas because, A) it is George Lucas; and B) how the hell would anybody else be able to put up enough coin to do this? Count Dooku is supposed to be a rich count, but he's locally rich, not "own a bunch of star systems" rich.


Lucas also said he had nine, even twelve, stories he planned to tell about the legal loophole that allowed Palpy to Siphon These-es that money off. And that Boba Fett was dead when that happened, not rescued from a pit. Originally, JarJar was going to be the source, but the bad publicity after TPM meant he had to re-write the script for AOTC (which was the reason it was late back in 2000).

Yeah.Heh heh, yeah, Lucas sucks and is a liar. And he's fat and has bad fashion sense. ;)



Maybe it was a POD service? Sifo Dyas could have placed the delivery and stuck the republic with the bill. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a service up front that I wouldn't see and judge for ten years.

Also, Palpatine was a force user, so I imagine he could have "forced" donations from higher class people. I'm sure over his life time he could have saved up a good portion of money by doing this. Plus, his master was probably doing the same thing.You know why we don't have payment on delivery options anymore? Nobody can afford to just up and build something and ship it out without resources in hand. The Kaminoans would be taking a massive risk if, after 10 years, the Republic coin hadn't come in and they had all that left over "inventory" laying around.

Had Palps been swiping those funds from the rich folks he knew, the galactic accountants would have started noticing, and then Palps would be Force-suggesting them (and you know he has to believe there are galactic accountants because he came up with a galactic banking clan) and when Palps Force-suggests the accountants their wives are going to gossip and the IGRS (Intergalactic Revenue Service) is going to take note, and then the conspiracy is going to show up on the Jedi's radar because too many little leaks are out there.

And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing.

I think no one individual could believably have enough money to create an army and its entire support system from their own coffers, not even a Sith.

Bel-Cam Jos
04-11-2013, 07:42 PM
I think no one individual could believably have enough money to create an army and its entire support system from their own coffers, not even a Sith.There's a serious, easy answer: the funds never existed, but the account shows they do. Palpatine would certainly support such subterfuge. :evil:

Darth Metalmute
04-11-2013, 08:04 PM
You know why we don't have payment on delivery options anymore? Nobody can afford to just up and build something and ship it out without resources in hand.

Has it ever been said how much each solider costs? Lets say it's $10,000 an embryo. Then its $10,000 a year for food and clothing. The initial order was for 3,000,000 clones. That's roughly $3,000,000,000,000,000. Now throw in training. Training can probably be a unit sum, maybe $100,000 a year per 30 clones? That's an additional $10,000,000,000. That's 3 quadrillion credits. I seriously doubt Palps put down that kind of money up front with the chance that the clones could turn out like Corky from "Life Goes On". Now I can believe he had to put in a down payment for the troops, but I can't believe he paid the entire sum.


The Kaminoans would be taking a massive risk if, after 10 years, the Republic coin hadn't come in and they had all that left over "inventory" laying around.

I'm not sure it would be that massive of a risk. Remember, they are building an army. If the Republic reneges on the agreement, they don't have the firepower to fend off the Clone Army, let alone the Droid army. The Republic would be overthrown by the Kaminoans in months.


Had Palps been swiping those funds from the rich folks he knew, the galactic accountants would have started noticing, and then Palps would be Force-suggesting them (and you know he has to believe there are galactic accountants because he came up with a galactic banking clan) and when Palps Force-suggests the accountants their wives are going to gossip and the IGRS (Intergalactic Revenue Service) is going to take note, and then the conspiracy is going to show up on the Jedi's radar because too many little leaks are out there.

I didn't necessarily mean stealing it. He could have created a fake charity like the Human Fund, and forced people to pay into it. With a charity, no one would think fraud, and considering he ran the senate, no one would look into it.


And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing.

This is the biggest non-believable part of the whole deal. I can see a hidden army to some extent, but building a fleet of Star Destroyers, Turbo Tanks, Gunships, AT-TE's, etc... would be too much for anyone not to notice. The job creations at the ship yards and manufacturing facilities alone to take on such an order would be massive enough to make people start to question. Then, you know the grunts at the bottom wouldn't be able to keep a secret. Plus, I imagine this cost would be ten times greater than that of the armies.

JediTricks
04-12-2013, 10:07 PM
There's a serious, easy answer: the funds never existed, but the account shows they do. Palpatine would certainly support such subterfuge. :evil:At this much coin, if the funds are fantasy money then the spending of those funds would deeply damage the Republic's actual economy. You float that much imaginary money into an economy and it destabilizes that economy's buying power. Even as credit, if the phantom accounts are on some bank's books it's essentially acting like counterfeit hard currency, a "phantom menace" if you will.



Has it ever been said how much each solider costs? Lets say it's $10,000 an embryo. Then its $10,000 a year for food and clothing. The initial order was for 3,000,000 clones. That's roughly $3,000,000,000,000,000. Now throw in training. Training can probably be a unit sum, maybe $100,000 a year per 30 clones? That's an additional $10,000,000,000. That's 3 quadrillion credits. I seriously doubt Palps put down that kind of money up front with the chance that the clones could turn out like Corky from "Life Goes On". Now I can believe he had to put in a down payment for the troops, but I can't believe he paid the entire sum.Kamino seems like a sparsely-populated place, there might be more clones than Kaminoans, if Palps didn't pay at least a significant downpayment that almost certainly would have cost the system more than its entire value. The money to pay for all that stuff had to come from somewhere, even as credit has a true value to a galactic economy.


I'm not sure it would be that massive of a risk. Remember, they are building an army. If the Republic reneges on the agreement, they don't have the firepower to fend off the Clone Army, let alone the Droid army. The Republic would be overthrown by the Kaminoans in months.Nobody else was big enough to buy that army though, and if I remember correctly no other system in the Republic could even HAVE an army that big, but that might just be EU nonsense.

I like the idea of the Kaminoans overthrowing the Republic with their own unpaid-for merchandise. :D


I didn't necessarily mean stealing it. He could have created a fake charity like the Human Fund, and forced people to pay into it. With a charity, no one would think fraud, and considering he ran the senate, no one would look into it.Maybe, but a decade of a charity that had more money than most star systems that had no oversight and no output would come up pretty suspiciously to the Intergalactic Revenue Service.



And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing. This is the biggest non-believable part of the whole deal. I can see a hidden army to some extent, but building a fleet of Star Destroyers, Turbo Tanks, Gunships, AT-TE's, etc... would be too much for anyone not to notice. The job creations at the ship yards and manufacturing facilities alone to take on such an order would be massive enough to make people start to question. Then, you know the grunts at the bottom wouldn't be able to keep a secret. Plus, I imagine this cost would be ten times greater than that of the armies.Yeah, this one really is a massive stretch because you have to pay designers, you have to pay for materials, you have to pay people to build it, you have to pay people to work out the training that gets fed into the clones' brains, you have to pay some shmoe to stencil Republic logos on each one, each item has to have a name, someone has to develop the rockets that they fire (because some genius decided that the Gunships would carry hard ammo instead of just laser bolts, adding more annoying logic holes to the issue) and stick Republic logos on THOSE. Lots of leaks possible.

El Chuxter
04-12-2013, 10:18 PM
To answer the original question:

PORN. Lots and lots of Sith porn. :eek:

Bel-Cam Jos
04-13-2013, 08:40 AM
Part of me wants to mention something about the Rule of Two, Chux, but decency says... wait; I guess I just did.

I really think that Darth M.'s "forced" idea is the likely cause. "You WILL transfer funds to this account." "Uh, yeah. I will." Then that account goes to another, and another, in a Moebius circle of them, until the Kaminoans get paid. Makin' it rain! Figuratively, as it rains ALL. THE. TIME. HERE.

El Chuxter
04-13-2013, 10:34 AM
Could be much simpler: If the Sith have been hiding for a millenium, who's to say they haven't set up some savings account that's gotten ginormous?

Tycho
04-13-2013, 03:37 PM
Read Darth Plagueis and Cloak of Deception, and Darth Maul Saboteur .

This has already been answered but not in any movie.

Later the Empire is maintained by high taxes.

Actually at the start of the Phantom Menace the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

JediTricks
04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
To answer the original question:

PORN. Lots and lots of Sith porn. :eek:Nobody wants to watch Palpatine get busy, or biz-ay!


Part of me wants to mention something about the Rule of Two, Chux, but decency says... wait; I guess I just did.

I really think that Darth M.'s "forced" idea is the likely cause. "You WILL transfer funds to this account." "Uh, yeah. I will." Then that account goes to another, and another, in a Moebius circle of them, until the Kaminoans get paid. Makin' it rain! Figuratively, as it rains ALL. THE. TIME. HERE.Trying to let that "rule of two" joke pass....... ew.

I still think you will have a massive problem with intergalactic accountants that way.


Could be much simpler: If the Sith have been hiding for a millenium, who's to say they haven't set up some savings account that's gotten ginormous?Bah, yes that could have been a thing. Darth Longtimeago had the foresight to invest in Coruscant Sewage Management around 4000 ABY and it paid off in spades. That would be so lame though, and removing that much investment and savings from the market over a relatively short period might destabilize those respective industries. What would keep the other Sith from touching it though? Vision not big enough? "My plan to ruin the Jedi is to bankrupt the company that makes their robes, then monopolize the brown robe industry and make all brown robes itchy and cheaply made, mwa ha ha!"


Read Darth Plagueis and Cloak of Deception, and Darth Maul Saboteur .

This has already been answered but not in any movie.

Later the Empire is maintained by high taxes.

Actually at the start of the Phantom Menace the taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.Taxes wouldn't explain anything that wasn't addressed here already. Also, Palpatine is elected Chancellor after the last guy is voted out for far less offenses, and his first act is to raid the coffers AND raise taxes substantially? No way, he'd be voted "no confidence" in a matter of hours. It only took an economic blockade of Naboo and the inability to move forward quickly enough to get Valorum out on his *** in a matter of days, and that didn't cost the Republic any money at all - this would be a ton of money right out the chocks, it'd stand out.

Darth Metalmute
04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
Kamino seems like a sparsely-populated place, there might be more clones than Kaminoans, if Palps didn't pay at least a significant downpayment that almost certainly would have cost the system more than its entire value. The money to pay for all that stuff had to come from somewhere, even as credit has a true value to a galactic economy.

You know, it could be possible that Palps set up an Office Space-esque scheme. He had the bank steel fractions of a penny from every transaction throughout the galaxy and place it in a separate bank account under the name Sifo Dyas.

JediTricks
04-13-2013, 04:46 PM
You know, it could be possible that Palps set up an Office Space-esque scheme. He had the bank steel fractions of a penny from every transaction throughout the galaxy and place it in a separate bank account under the name Sifo Dyas.That didn't even work in Office Space though, remember? He stole the idea from Superman 3 and then it backfired and put $50k into their account in a weekend, creating an oversight problem - the company would certainly notice $50k missing. So basically you have to have the Republic be rich enough that it can afford a trivial amount of fractional funds be siphoned off so low that it's not perceived but high enough that it actually gets the job done.

This is all so mundane that I'm shocked Lucas didn't put it in the prequels. Maybe that's what the upcoming Eps 7-9 will be about though. ;)
Prequels - intergalactic politics
OT - intergalactic rebellion
Sequels - intergalactic finance reform

El Chuxter
04-13-2013, 05:07 PM
Nah, Darth Bane puts five bucks a week into a basic savings account, then passes it to Darth II, with instructions that it will remain untouched until the Sith need a ton of money to finance overthrowing the Jedi. If each subsequent Sith can keep contributing even a tiny amount (and not touch it), it would be huge. Even if they simply didn't touch it, it'd be huge. Which isn't too farfetched; for 1,000 years, they can keep their mouths shut about even existing.

El Chuxter
04-13-2013, 06:29 PM
Alright, on a whim, I wasted time calculating how much $1/week at the fairly modest (but sustainable) interest rate of 0.5% APY, compounded monthly, would look like after one millennium.

After 1,000 years, it'd be $2,152,236.93.

If the Sith were putting in, say, $10 per week and had found an account that averaged 1% over the entire millennium, it'd be $2,422,813,889.27.

Or, at $20 per week, which seems easily doable for someone like Palpatine, at 1.5% (not too difficult to imagine, given the sums involved), you'd be almost at a trillion dollars ($723,250,251,605.80).

Hell, with them having no qualms about using illegal means, I don't think 3% is out of the question, earning them over four quintillion dollars ($4,004,431,492,264,610,000.00) from a total investment of $1,040,000.00 spread over one thousand years.

True, this is useless info, but I think that in a galaxy as wide as the one in SW, an influential group (particularly one possessing mind control powers and a ton of political power) could find an account where they could keep their money for that long with no questions asked (even posing as an attention-shy religious order or family, if necessary). I'm just showing it is possible.

Tycho
04-13-2013, 06:31 PM
Darth Plagueis and Dooku were rich and controlled a lot of banking concerns. Maybe they paid Camino installments.

Tycho
04-13-2013, 06:35 PM
Also investors in military contracts by other rich guys who Imp Dignitaries like Sate Pestage - From other rich systems. The Sith Promise them a war

Darth Metalmute
04-13-2013, 08:55 PM
That didn't even work in Office Space though, remember? He stole the idea from Superman 3 and then it backfired and put $50k into their account in a weekend, creating an oversight problem - the company would certainly notice $50k missing. So basically you have to have the Republic be rich enough that it can afford a trivial amount of fractional funds be siphoned off so low that it's not perceived but high enough that it actually gets the job done.

That wouldn't work at a company because all the transactions would occur with one client, the software company. However, if you did this at a bank, and only targeted personal deposits, it would go unnoticed. If you were paid weekly, and deposited 4 checks a month, you wouldn't notice that you were short a penny. If Palps took a quarter of a cent per ever personal deposit throughout the galaxy, he might be able to pay the clone fee in 4 months.


This is all so mundane that I'm shocked Lucas didn't put it in the prequels. Maybe that's what the upcoming Eps 7-9 will be about though. ;)
Prequels - intergalactic politics
OT - intergalactic rebellion
Sequels - intergalactic finance reform

Now I can't wait for the new trilogy...

JediTricks
04-14-2013, 01:32 AM
Alright, on a whim, I wasted time calculating how much $1/week at the fairly modest (but sustainable) interest rate of 0.5% APY, compounded monthly, would look like after one millennium.

After 1,000 years, it'd be $2,152,236.93.

If the Sith were putting in, say, $10 per week and had found an account that averaged 1% over the entire millennium, it'd be $2,422,813,889.27.

Or, at $20 per week, which seems easily doable for someone like Palpatine, at 1.5% (not too difficult to imagine, given the sums involved), you'd be almost at a trillion dollars ($723,250,251,605.80).

Hell, with them having no qualms about using illegal means, I don't think 3% is out of the question, earning them over four quintillion dollars ($4,004,431,492,264,610,000.00) from a total investment of $1,040,000.00 spread over one thousand years.

True, this is useless info, but I think that in a galaxy as wide as the one in SW, an influential group (particularly one possessing mind control powers and a ton of political power) could find an account where they could keep their money for that long with no questions asked (even posing as an attention-shy religious order or family, if necessary). I'm just showing it is possible.Really went for the full nerding-up on that one, eh?

Without management of an account like that, who is to say a bank will even be accruing that much interest in that time? Who is to say that value isn't wiped out by a currency change like the French New Franc or the Mexican New Peso? How could a bank even pay out on an account like that? Who ensures that bank even stays in business?

And what happens to operating capital, or is this a "rainy day fund"?

But to get even more out there, how do we believe that the Sith have $20 a week to spend back then? Inflation has that showing up as 23x its value only 100 years ago, today's $20 is 1913's $469.02 based on the Consumer Price Index, that same $20 1000 years ago could be perceived as a fortune all to itself. Ah for the heady days of living on Coruscant a millennium ago, when you could buy an airspeeder for $20.



Also investors in military contracts by other rich guys who Imp Dignitaries like Sate Pestage - From other rich systems. The Sith Promise them a warMore room for leaks.



That wouldn't work at a company because all the transactions would occur with one client, the software company. However, if you did this at a bank, and only targeted personal deposits, it would go unnoticed. If you were paid weekly, and deposited 4 checks a month, you wouldn't notice that you were short a penny. If Palps took a quarter of a cent per ever personal deposit throughout the galaxy, he might be able to pay the clone fee in 4 months. Yeah, because it's not a bank's job to look for transactions exactly like this or anything. :p Apparently, this has a name, it's called "salami slicing", and while it is hard for some industries to catch, banking is not among those.


Now I can't wait for the new trilogy...Perhaps you'd be more excited if Disney got Alan Greenspan to act as a script consultant? Although the way things have been looking lately, they'd probably screw that up and get Ben Stein or Ben Bernanke instead. ;)

Bel-Cam Jos
04-14-2013, 11:03 AM
I heard that prior to the E7 movie, there'll be a short animated piece; either Steamspeeder Eweelee, about a happy-go-lucky Coruscant speeder taxi driver's day; or The Sith's Apprentice, a piece where a trainee sees an open Sith Holocron and creates pit droids to do all his duties (whereupon the Sith master fries him with lightning after destroying all the droids).

I. Can't. Wait.

Oops, this is a thread about unlikely scenarios and huge amounts of money spent. My bad.

JediTricks
04-15-2013, 03:52 PM
I heard that prior to the E7 movie, there'll be a short animated piece; either Steamspeeder Eweelee, about a happy-go-lucky Coruscant speeder taxi driver's day; or The Sith's Apprentice, a piece where a trainee sees an open Sith Holocron and creates pit droids to do all his duties (whereupon the Sith master fries him with lightning after destroying all the droids).

I. Can't. Wait.

Oops, this is a thread about unlikely scenarios and huge amounts of money spent. My bad.Wow, that's seriously labored. :D

Darth Metalmute
04-15-2013, 09:23 PM
Perhaps you'd be more excited if Disney got Alan Greenspan to act as a script consultant? Although the way things have been looking lately, they'd probably screw that up and get Ben Stein or Ben Bernanke instead. ;)

No, but I would be really happy if they brought Darth Maul, Darth Sideous, and Darth Vader back from the dead as enemies...:highly_amused:

bigbarada
04-16-2013, 03:21 PM
Y'know in some ways it's not really fair to critically analyze the Prequels because they're such an easy target. Kind of like making fun of the mentally-challenged kid because he can't do long division.

But that's not to say it's not fun. :thumbsup:

However, I think there are a few factors that would make this kind of thing possible:

1. If Palpatine could lure the general population into complacency with prosperity and comfort, then most people will become completely self-centered and won't care what their government is doing unless it directly inconveniences them.

2. An all-powerful, central, unified government is ripe for corruption to grow unchecked. This kind of government is accountable to no one (remember the citizens have been turned into fat, contented cows happily grazing on the government's feet) and can literally get away with whatever it wants. Just think of Nazi Germany, imagine if their had been no Allied forces to confront them and hold them accountable for the Holocaust. If we had had a centralized, all-powerful, one-world government under Adolf Hitler just think of what kind of horrors our entire planet would be living under right now. This is why a unified, one-world government is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER a good idea. Because when that government becomes corrupt (it's not even a question of "if"), then you would actually have to leave the planet to escape the tyranny.

3. Also, if Palpatine was powerful enough to fog the Jedi's minds... every single Jedi, for every waking moment, for over ten years, no matter where they were in the galaxy.... then just imagine what he could do to the minds of normal citizens. I think it's called the Plot-Hole Steamrolling Power of the Dark Side. Which is a pretty convenient power to give your main villain if you want to gloss over the fact that none of your heroes do anything that makes any sense whatsoever.

El Chuxter
04-16-2013, 04:15 PM
Y'know in some ways it's not really fair to critically analyze the Prequels because they're such an easy target. Kind of like making fun of the mentally-challenged kid because he can't do long division.

:D


3. Also, if Palpatine was powerful enough to fog the Jedi's minds... every single Jedi, for every waking moment, for over ten years, no matter where they were in the galaxy.... then just imagine what he could do to the minds of normal citizens. I think it's called the Plot-Hole Steamrolling Power of the Dark Side.
Not justifying it exactly, but there is a line or two where it implies the Jedi have grown weaker while the Dark Side has grown stronger. Poor writing keeps it from being explicitly stated (or implied in a manner that can be picked up easily enough, given how important this has to be for the Sith victory to make any sense).

On that note, it still bugs me that only two Jedi out of all of them (a few thousand?) were able to fight back. I guess three, if you count Ki-Adi Mundi blocking a few blaster bolts. Only one of those actually succeeded; the other one got lucky and hid in the water.

JediTricks
04-17-2013, 04:51 PM
Y'know in some ways it's not really fair to critically analyze the Prequels because they're such an easy target. Kind of like making fun of the mentally-challenged kid because he can't do long division.

But that's not to say it's not fun. :thumbsup:That's not fair, the prequels are more like the super rich kid with genius parents who sits in the class being distracting and lazy and acting like he can just coast through classes, occasionally cribbing from his dad's notes. It's totally worth making fun of him for screwing up. :p



However, I think there are a few factors that would make this kind of thing possible:

1. If Palpatine could lure the general population into complacency with prosperity and comfort, then most people will become completely self-centered and won't care what their government is doing unless it directly inconveniences them. Considering the age of the Republic and how little time he'd have to do this (it'd pretty much have to be the first thing he does, and then keeps doing for 10 years), I don't think that's a long enough time to ramp up that level of complacency with his work. The senate is watching, if for no other reason than to justify their own jobs, but there's a lot of them, Valorum was voted out in an exceptionally short amount of time for simply not taking more action.


2. An all-powerful, central, unified government is ripe for corruption to grow unchecked. This kind of government is accountable to no one (remember the citizens have been turned into fat, contented cows happily grazing on the government's feet) and can literally get away with whatever it wants. Just think of Nazi Germany, imagine if their had been no Allied forces to confront them and hold them accountable for the Holocaust. If we had had a centralized, all-powerful, one-world government under Adolf Hitler just think of what kind of horrors our entire planet would be living under right now. This is why a unified, one-world government is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER a good idea. Because when that government becomes corrupt (it's not even a question of "if"), then you would actually have to leave the planet to escape the tyranny.Scale it up though, we're not talking about a little graft here and there, we're talking about 20% or more of the entire Republic government's money to pay for what to them looks like nothing at all. Hitler grew to power because the German people were poor and angry after losing WW1, they weren't fatcats, they started depressed and weak and became engaged and energized, ready to blame someone and take something.


3. Also, if Palpatine was powerful enough to fog the Jedi's minds... every single Jedi, for every waking moment, for over ten years, no matter where they were in the galaxy.... then just imagine what he could do to the minds of normal citizens. I think it's called the Plot-Hole Steamrolling Power of the Dark Side. Which is a pretty convenient power to give your main villain if you want to gloss over the fact that none of your heroes do anything that makes any sense whatsoever.That's a big "if", we don't really know that's what he was doing, if he was really fogging their minds. I always took it to mean that Palpatine had used politics to manipulate the people against the Jedi, and with the people's will guiding the Force away from the Jedi, it weakened them.



Not justifying it exactly, but there is a line or two where it implies the Jedi have grown weaker while the Dark Side has grown stronger. Poor writing keeps it from being explicitly stated (or implied in a manner that can be picked up easily enough, given how important this has to be for the Sith victory to make any sense).

On that note, it still bugs me that only two Jedi out of all of them (a few thousand?) were able to fight back. I guess three, if you count Ki-Adi Mundi blocking a few blaster bolts. Only one of those actually succeeded; the other one got lucky and hid in the water.Why didn't Mace Windu bring more Jedi to confront Palpatine? Why didn't Yoda bring more Jedi to confront Palpatine? Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan regroup and try again? Because... Darth Bad-Writ'ing.

Darth Metalmute
04-17-2013, 10:43 PM
Why didn't Mace Windu bring more Jedi to confront Palpatine?

But that's not Mace's fault. Four Jedi should have been enough. Who could have thought that a 4 vs. 1 duel would have been reduced to a 1 vs. 1 battle after three swings of the red blade? I suppose that's why those Jedi were at the temple, instead of leading their battalions...

bigbarada
04-18-2013, 04:46 AM
TWhy didn't Yoda bring more Jedi to confront Palpatine? Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan regroup and try again? Because... Darth Bad-Writ'ing.

You don't remember the old Jedi adage of "If at first you don't succeed, then.... run away and go into hiding for 20 years until you can find some dumb kid who is gullible enough to fight your battles for you"? I think that was inscribed on the front of the Jedi Temple somewhere.

Anyways, I agree with you that it's a major flaw in the storyline, I was just trying to come up with a half-hearted attempt at explaining it away; so I probably didn't think my comparisons through as thoroughly as I could have.

Also, since everyone and their brother is getting zapped with Force lightning in the Prequels, you would think that Obi-Wan and Yoda might want to bring it up at least once just before Luke goes off to face Vader and the Emperor. Yoda could have said it just before he keeled over, "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor. The crap out of you, he will zap with lightning bolts from his fingertips; but how to defend against those I will teach you. First you must..... :dead::dead::dead:"

JediTricks
04-19-2013, 02:03 PM
But that's not Mace's fault. Four Jedi should have been enough. Who could have thought that a 4 vs. 1 duel would have been reduced to a 1 vs. 1 battle after three swings of the red blade? I suppose that's why those Jedi were at the temple, instead of leading their battalions...That's just short-sighted. Palpatine controls all the senate guards at the very least, and is a Sith Lord who has been adeptly hiding right under their noses. If Palpatine had been leading a high speed chase on the freeway he'd have a dozen officers minimum on him. :p Mace should have brought EVERYONE, can never be too careful, and probably done a galaxy-wide broadcast of this important news - the chancellor of the Republic is a Sith Lord who is master over the leader of the Confederacy.


You don't remember the old Jedi adage of "If at first you don't succeed, then.... run away and go into hiding for 20 years until you can find some dumb kid who is gullible enough to fight your battles for you"? I think that was inscribed on the front of the Jedi Temple somewhere.Yeah, I remember that plaque. They kept having someone stand in front of it to cover it up. Same reason Buckingham Palace has those guards that never move, covering up the secrets of the monarchy that are on plaques outside the building.


Anyways, I agree with you that it's a major flaw in the storyline, I was just trying to come up with a half-hearted attempt at explaining it away; so I probably didn't think my comparisons through as thoroughly as I could have.No, I hear ya, it's fun to think about off-the-wall stuff like this when there's nothing else going on in SW.


Also, since everyone and their brother is getting zapped with Force lightning in the Prequels, you would think that Obi-Wan and Yoda might want to bring it up at least once just before Luke goes off to face Vader and the Emperor. Yoda could have said it just before he keeled over, "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor. The crap out of you, he will zap with lightning bolts from his fingertips; but how to defend against those I will teach you. First you must..... :dead::dead::dead:"Heh heh, yeah, "try blocking, or just catching it". Super lame Jedi teachers.

Tycho
04-19-2013, 02:20 PM
However, I think there are a few factors that would make this kind of thing possible:

1. If Palpatine could lure the general population into complacency with prosperity and comfort, then most people will become completely self-centered and won't care what their government is doing unless it directly inconveniences them.

The wealthy (like Sim Aloo, Sate Pestage, Prince Xizor, Count Dooku actually, San Hill, Rogwa Woodrata, Wat Tambor, Shu Mai, Passel Argente, etc.) all prospered and had limited comfort - for the ones who were Separatists in the conspiracy anyway. The others like Willuth Tarkin and Wraith Sienar continued to prosper under the Empire.

The rest of the population was held in check by fear "of the terrorists" (ex-Separatists, new Rebel Alliance anyone?) Taxes needed to be raised and stormtroopers needed to be stationed in order to maintain domestic security. It's a darn allusion to what is happening in the republic called the USA presently. The Loyalists (rich people not paying the brunt of the taxes, though that's questionable in light of the blockade around Naboo in TPM) had their cake and ate it too by siding with Romney err... I meant Palpatine.



2. An all-powerful, central, unified government is ripe for corruption to grow unchecked. This kind of government is accountable to no one (remember the citizens have been turned into fat, contented cows happily grazing on the government's feet) and can literally get away with whatever it wants. Just think of Nazi Germany, imagine if their had been no Allied forces to confront them and hold them accountable for the Holocaust. If we had had a centralized, all-powerful, one-world government under Adolf Hitler just think of what kind of horrors our entire planet would be living under right now. This is why a unified, one-world government is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER a good idea. Because when that government becomes corrupt (it's not even a question of "if"), then you would actually have to leave the planet to escape the tyranny.


Star Trek has earth in a one-world government. I don't understand the intricacies of it, but I am certain that North America cannot make a treaty with the Klingons and NOT expect that Asia won't go along with it. The Klingons would use any excuse to force total conquest of earth if they could.

A one-world republic government, so long as a constitution saw opposition parties routinely have a voice and share in the power, could work. By extension, so could the Old Republic in Star Wars (and the Federation of Planets as we started talking about Star Trek at my post).

But if one day the United States was attacked by the Klingons because the North Koreans upset them, and the Klingons just said, "What the heck? They are all Terans (earthlings, humans)," that would make us real sorry we didn't have a functional United Nations forum to help coordinate some kind of united policy with the North Koreans.

And that being said, in finality (Deep Space Nine), Terans (United Earth citizens, Federation of Planet peoples) had to have a united alliance with the Klingons to resist The Dominion. And you know - the Founders of the Dominion, with their shape-shifting, might be useful allies against the Borg who probably couldn't assimilate them.

Alliances and the eventual united governments are not stupid things.

Back to Star Wars, the Hutts were not even ever under Imperial jurisdiction - and the Hutt's hold on slavery was a good thing? Really?




3. Also, if Palpatine was powerful enough to fog the Jedi's minds... every single Jedi, for every waking moment, for over ten years, no matter where they were in the galaxy.... then just imagine what he could do to the minds of normal citizens. I think it's called the Plot-Hole Steamrolling Power of the Dark Side. Which is a pretty convenient power to give your main villain if you want to gloss over the fact that none of your heroes do anything that makes any sense whatsoever.

He could cloak himself in the Force, reduce his presence. Jedi could do that as well, but it was considered against their principles to always be acting from the shadows. Palpatine was not "super" powerful, nor is any Sith (Yoda said "not MORE powerful").

BigB: you are a trained soldier and pretty strong I imagine. If you needed to, you could cause someone you needed to underestimate YOU by pretending you were scared and needed help to even open a glass bottle. If you had a plan in mind, you could keep this illusion up for however long it was necessary before they'd never suspect it when you turned on them and kicked some serious butt.

Anyway, the Prequel Trilogy was deeper (politically) than the OT and much more sophistocated. Part of Lucas' greed that lent to his shortcomings in writing, was his desire to hook the kids with sillyness like JarJar. He also was not subtle about showing everything "start and end happy" with Gungans and Ewoks. Even AOTC is not "cute," like TPM and ROTJ was a serious departure of tone from ANH and ESB since back in the day. Yub-Nub. Beecheewa-wawaa.