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darth maul rat
03-15-2002, 11:58 PM
hey, did anybody ever solve that impossible question about disappearing jedi?

SithDroid
03-16-2002, 01:03 AM
No. I have replied to this before. The only two Jedi's not to have disappeared so far in the SW movies are: Darth Vader and Qui-Gon Jinn. Darth Maul if you count him, but I'll get into that in a minute.

1. Darth Vader. I believe he probably DID disappear and we the audience didn't know it. Everyone always says, "then why did Luke burn Vader on Endor?" The answer is quite simple, he was burning the robotic suit and parts of Darth Vader. Remember as Obi-Wan once said "He's more machine than man now." So if he is mostly machine then the suit would probably keep shape pretty well, so that has always been my reasoning.

2. Darth Maul. I only have a theory on this one, but perhaps Sith can not disappear and become one with the force. This could also explain Vader since he was a Sith. But Vader was also saved (although too little too late) and COULD disappear because he had turned away from the Dark Side. Two possible ways to interpret it.

3. Qui-Gon. The only reason why Qui-Gon didn't disappear is GL FORGOT about the whole issue. I have posted multiple times that GL did not do his homework before writing TPM. It clearly shows with all the inconsistencies (which I won't get into right now). The only reason the Qui-Gon funeral scene happens is for dramatic purposes so that Yoda and Mace can discuss about the Sith Lord while Palpatine watches the fire burn. Plain and simple. GL couldn't find a better way to get them all together in one scene, so he created this one which contradicts everything in the OT. Yet another reason why TPM will always be far inferior to the OT.

I hope this helps.

Rollo Tomassi
03-16-2002, 07:29 AM
I never did get the full and complete impossible ILM question. I only got spotty parts from different sources. I know it concerned why Jedi "dissappeared" but I could never tell if it meant why they dissappear when they die, or why the Jedi order was not around anymore. They said they couldn't give out any clues but then someone said they had "confirmed" that a major clue was in Obi Wan's hut on Tatooine, but you could only see it on the big screen. And last, they would only tell you if you were correct if you got the answer correct, so there wasn't any "Am I getting close?" to be had.


My theory on Qui Gon Jinn was that he was an odd duck in the Jedi Order. He had all these crazy theories about midichlorians that the other Jedi didn't seem to endorse. He also went on about the "living Force" a lot. I think maype QGJ didn't beleive in being cohesive energy after one had passed on, so he chose not to dissappear when he died, since he felt the "living Force" had left him and that was it's will.

Obi-Don
03-16-2002, 08:11 AM
All in all its just one of the many holes GL couldn't fill.

Lord Tenebrous
03-16-2002, 11:52 AM
From the information I've gathered, Obi-Wan and Yoda learn a technique that alllows them to become one with the Force. It's a lost skill, one that most don't know about.

Anakin Skywalker already possesses the technique, having been created by the Midi-Chlorians. He, like the two other Jedi, will lose his physical presense, and his Force-sensitive microbes will form a representation of his former self.

Lobito
03-18-2002, 02:49 PM
In the EU comicbook redemption, the story says that only the greatest Jedi Masters become one with the force (Ulic quel Droma), so maybe Qui Gonn was not one of the greatest...Darth Maul was not a jedi so he cant be one with the force, that leaves us Vader. Although we dont see the disappearing act in ROTJ, we know he became one with the force becuase we see him in the very end of ROTJ with Yoda and OB1.

LTBasker
03-18-2002, 03:37 PM
He wasn't prepared to die, which is why he didn't dissapear. Seriously. Same goes for Darth Maul and Palpy. Vader however, he did turn to a "force spirit" however his body did not dissapear, however, Obi did say "He's more machine now than man." so since he wasn't all human, then that could explain it.

Dryanta
03-18-2002, 08:40 PM
I think Vader (Anakin) did disapear and only the cybernetics were burned on Endor.I think there is something about QGJ that prevented him from disappearing once he died.Obi wan eluded to Difficulties between him and the Jedi counsel in the past.There may be more to QGJ than what we've been shown.
I don't think Sith disappear.I think they just die.Maybe if we see or do not see QGJ in a spirit form we will have a better idea what the deal is.
I personaaly don't think there some kind of screw up By GL.He's lived this for so long that I can't buy that.Maybe I'm nuts.I wouldn't be surprised to see all these things all tied up by the end of EP3 and archival editions.

icatch9
03-19-2002, 09:58 AM
You guys are making this way to difficult. There is a simple answer that fills in all the holes. Yoda and Obi-Wan took their own lives. Think about it. Just before Obi-Wan disappears he looks at Luke, then Vader holds his light saber straight up and closes his eyes and poof, no more Obi-Wan. He was not struck down by Vader, he disappeared and became one with the Force because he decided that would be the best way to help Luke. Same with Yoda. He may have been sick, but he chose to take his life. Qui-Gon was killed. He did not take his own life. So he did not disappear. If Sith can join the Force “after life” is doubtful. But Maul and Palpatine where killed too, so they did not disappear. Vader was beat down by Luke and zapped by the Emperor, so he was killed. Nowhere does it say that you must disappear first to become a Jedi Ghost. Thus, every Jedi can and will appear in ghost form if they choose to. These reason are much more realistic for the Star Wars Universe, a lot better than George Lucas forgot. That make little since.

Rollo Tomassi
03-19-2002, 10:18 AM
Yikes. Lucas sanctions suicide as the only acceptable means of entering the Star Wars afterlife? I don't think so.

The simplest answer is that Luke is hallucinating. He's the only one that "sees" and "hears" dead Jedi spirits. Something traumatic happened to that boy, but I can't seem to put my finger on it...

Oh that's right. His parental figures were systematically killed in front of him. never knew either of his parents. Aunt and uncle crispied on the ground in front of him. Mentor sliced in too (<---thats for you Bel Cam;)) by demonic armor wearing villain. Best friend/ surrogate older brother blasted into space dust by same villain. Other best friend/surrogate older brother steals girlfriend from him. If this guy's not a candidate for "voices" than nobody is.:rolleyes:

Dryanta
03-19-2002, 10:27 AM
I f I follow your logic Icatch9 then Vader also choose to die.He knew what the emporer's force lightning would do to his cybernetics at close range.By grabbing him and throwing him into the reactor he made a choice to die to save his son.That was he redemptive moment and the results of his actions were clear to him.See what I mean?
If luke is "hearing things" they sure are accurate delusions don't you think?

stillakid
03-19-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by icatch9
You guys are making this way to difficult. There is a simple answer that fills in all the holes. Yoda and Obi-Wan took their own lives. Think about it. Just before Obi-Wan disappears he looks at Luke, then Vader holds his light saber straight up and closes his eyes and poof, no more Obi-Wan. He was not struck down by Vader, he disappeared and became one with the Force because he decided that would be the best way to help Luke. Same with Yoda. He may have been sick, but he chose to take his life. Qui-Gon was killed. He did not take his own life. So he did not disappear. If Sith can join the Force “after life” is doubtful. But Maul and Palpatine where killed too, so they did not disappear. Vader was beat down by Luke and zapped by the Emperor, so he was killed. Nowhere does it say that you must disappear first to become a Jedi Ghost. Thus, every Jedi can and will appear in ghost form if they choose to. These reason are much more realistic for the Star Wars Universe, a lot better than George Lucas forgot. That make little since.


That seems to be the most plausible explanation, in terms of not inventing rationalizations for the odds and ends that don't fit anywhere. However, I think the real-world answer is that Lucas chooses to use the disappearing act whenever it is dramatically advantageous.

It was a surprise to Luke and the audience to see Obi Wan vanish immediately upon his death, but to have him sliced in half and then have him slowly fade out wouldn't have the impact that it did. The sudden disappearance had dramatic impact for Vader, Luke, and the audience and kicked off the fast paced escape sequence that followed.

The scene leading up to Yoda's death is slow and plodding, so the extended fade out made sense in terms of the serious and quiet nature of the scene.

When the Emperor dies, presumably he explodes because his human body can't contain the power of so much evil channeling through him, or something like that. It also works well visually and thematically because with the "pit" and the fire it appears that he is falling to the depths of hell.

When Anakin dies, it is much more meaningful and powerful for Luke to be there holding his father than to end the scene with him holding an empty mechanical suit. He most likely would have left that shell there, which would have eliminated the pyre scene. Keeping Anakin's body around gave us the opportunity to see a fantastic shot both in terms of visual imagery and in thematic importance to witness the burning of Vader's "likeness" whether Anakin was in there or not.

When Qui Gonn gets run-through, he probably would've died fairly quickly, but Lucas had him conveniently "clinging to life" just long enough for him to pass the training of Anakin on to Obi Wan. Then he dies. As mentioned above, Lucas needed a reason to get the principal characters under one roof in order to put a cap on the story. Leaving Qui Gonn's body intact provided an excuse to burn it and have a funeral event.

When Darth Maul dies, it should have been instantaneous like Old Ben in ANH, but he was supposed to be such a bad guy, that we, the audience, would derive much more pleasure from seeing him sliced in two pieces and falling to "hell," just like the Emperor did in ROTJ.

So in conclusion, in my humble opinion, there is absolutely no across the board explanation for disappearing Jedi, rather George uses the death sequences inconsistently for dramatic and thematic advantage as the story needs change. Any other explanation is simply rationalization to make it seem like he has a grand unified plan.

Dryanta
03-19-2002, 10:38 AM
I think stillakid is right.In the begining of all this is was just story telling,but now because of Fan questioning I think he will provide an answer to the question through the plot of the next two movies.For all we know they never provided an answer because they were looking for one from us.
Hey Rollo,This "confirmed clue" you posted in Obi Wans hut.Is this a big screen thing a scale issue or a wide screen issue?I have the wide screens and was curious if I could see anything.Any idea?

icatch9
03-19-2002, 02:32 PM
I still think everyone is making this way to hard. You are trying to figure out why Lucas makes these scenes so interesting. That has nothing to do with the story. Is it so hard to believe that a Jedi could take his or her own life when he or she saw fit. So many people compare these films to Kurasawa (I know I spelled it wrong) movies. I don’t know much about them, but don’t they have to do with Samurai worriers. Isn’t there a practice of these worriers where they commit suicide (Harry Carry I think it’s called, again spelled wrong). The facts in the movie remain. Yoda and Obi-Wan are the only 2 that disappear, and they are the only two that don’t get zapped and sliced or worse. Vader dies by the hands of Luke and or the Emperor. He then comes back in ghost form, thus a Jedi who dies any which way can come back in ghost form. However, a Jedi who dies any which way does not disappear. This should be clear, because why would there be a traditional Jedi burial procedure (cremation) if every Jedi who died disappeared. There would be no reason and they wouldn’t know what to do.

Many of the things in the all 4 movies were made because of the “movie made easy” philosophy that George Lucas uses. However, there is always a reason that someone comes up with later, he is never going to say “We’ll I forgot about that”. If it is true doesn’t matter to the story only to the people producing and filming the movie.

stillakid
03-19-2002, 02:59 PM
As I said, I don't think that Lucas really put much thought into why one Jedi vanishes when others don't. Aside from disappearing, Ben and Yoda vanished in completely different ways. As they are the only two to have accomplished this feat, as far as we can tell, we can see by their example that Lucas has no continuity in mind when dealing with a Jedi's death. Extrapolating from that conclusion, it doesn't take a leap of logic to determine that he uses whatever dramatic license is necessary to tell the story in whatever manner seems best suited at the time. Suffice it to say, there doesn't seem to be any fictional accounting for the different patterns of Jedi death to this point and the only non-fictional reason seems to be artistic license.

The entire issue may get a little cloudier with EP II. As a non-spoiler fan, I have absolutely no idea what to expect beyond massive groups of Jedi's going into battle, however I can safely assume that many of them die. If we take the supposition that a Jedi who is prepared to die (ie, commits suicide, goes into battle ready to die) will vanish, then I would expect to see mounds of empty cloaks littering the battlefield at the end of the film. Maybe that's what happens. I don't know, but I have the distinct "feeling" that that isn't what we'll see. Time will tell.

Oh, and the "ghost" thing. We have no reason to believe that only a select few Jedi can return as ghostly figures. In terms of the story at hand, it was only necessary for Obi Wan to return to help guide Luke, but half the time it was only in voice form. Yoda and Anakin appear at the end, but again, it is for Luke's benefit. There are no other dead Jedi who are relevant to the story at that point. The Emperor did not find redemption at the end like Anakin did, but even so, it wasn't Luke's quest to "save" Palpatine either. What it boils down to is that the question of who gets to be a ghost doesn't factor into the question of Jedi disappearance at all and can't be used as a basis of argument for or against any opinion concerning such.

Lobito
03-19-2002, 03:14 PM
As I said, I don't think that Lucas really put much thought into why one Jedi vanishes when others don't.

Yep, there is no continuity in the way things happen...take for example ROTJ, the way Luke is fighting goons in Jabba´s Sail barge. They just fall down, instead of them being sliced in half. Ob1 sliced Ponda Baba's arm in ANH. Darth sliced Luke's hand in Esb, as Luke sliced a Wampa's arm in the same movie, yet in ROTJ the slicing part is over, just at the end we see Luke taking revenge on his father slicing his hand. who knows?? But the fact is that GL did not had continuity in mind when he was making the Sail Barge scene...and of course the vanishing of our jedi guys.:eek: :D

icatch9
03-19-2002, 03:39 PM
The only basis we have for figuring this out is the movie anything else is hearsay and rumors. Look to the movies for the answer. You cannot answer these questions with anything that is said in the real world. The truth lies only in the Star Wars universe, not ours. I think that I am satisfied with the answers from the movies, but others want to know why things were filmed the way they were. You want to catch Lucas making a mistake, well good luck in you quest. I too am not a spoiler fan, so I don’t know what’s going to happen (except what I’ve seen from the trailers), cloaks or bodies either way questions will still be there, and we will still have to look to the movies for answers.


Oh and maby the reason why Luke isn't slicing and diceing Jabba's goons is becasue he doesn't want to. Maby it is a force thing to control you lightsaber to kill someone or just get them down and out of the way. You know a good shot can kill a man with a gun or just hurt him. Could be the same concept, but who knows.

SithDroid
03-19-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


However, I think the real-world answer is that Lucas chooses to use the disappearing act whenever it is dramatically advantageous.

When Qui Gonn gets run-through, he probably would've died fairly quickly, but Lucas had him conveniently "clinging to life" just long enough for him to pass the training of Anakin on to Obi Wan. Then he dies. As mentioned above, Lucas needed a reason to get the principal characters under one roof in order to put a cap on the story. Leaving Qui Gonn's body intact provided an excuse to burn it and have a funeral event.

So in conclusion, in my humble opinion, there is absolutely no across the board explanation for disappearing Jedi, rather George uses the death sequences inconsistently for dramatic and thematic advantage as the story needs change. Any other explanation is simply rationalization to make it seem like he has a grand unified plan.

I agree with you stillakid. That was the basic idea I was trying to get across in my post. GL thinks about the CINEMATIC importance, not if it fits with the whole CONTINUITY of the films.

Lobito
03-19-2002, 03:49 PM
The only basis we have for figuring this out is the movie anything else is hearsay and rumors. Look to the movies for the answer. You cannot answer these questions with anything that is said in the real world. The truth lies only in the Star Wars universe, not ours. I think that I am satisfied with the answers from the movies, but others want to know why things were filmed the way they were. You want to catch Lucas making a mistake, well good luck in you quest. I too am not a spoiler fan, so I don’t know what’s going to happen (except what I’ve seen from the trailers), cloaks or bodies either way questions will still be there, and we will still have to look to the movies for answers.

Think of it as a "no prize".

Lord Tenebrous
03-23-2002, 11:51 PM
"One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that."

- George Lucas, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays (1997)


:)

2-1B
03-24-2002, 12:13 AM
Tenebrous, thank you for that citation. I had it in mind but could not remember the source. :)

The thought I had was that his statement from '97 contradicts his post TPM claims that we will find out "along the way" about why Qui-Gonn didn't disappear.

So I have no idea if we can look for clues in the movies or look outside the films to find this answer. :confused:

Impossible indeed!

:D

stillakid
03-24-2002, 01:43 AM
Okay, for what it's worth, here's my own personal pet theory of how the Universe really works and it's relationship to our souls. You'll see the connection to Old Ben, the vanishing act, and his "ghostly" visits pretty quickly.

Using everything that I've read recently regarding theories surrounding the makeup of our Universe, time/space, quantum mechanics, string theory, etc. coupled with parallel study of comparitive religions and Joseph Campbell, I'm coming to believe the following:

I think that "God" or whatever you want to describe the eternal being as, is everything that is around us. That is to say, that at the beginning of time, whatever that really means, all the matter and energy and consciousness that we observe and sense all around us started out as one cohesive entity. Then, for some reason, it "exploded", or something, into the billions of pieces that we observe...into absolutely everything that we see in the Universe and for that matter, into the Universe itself. To put it another way, "God" "expanded" from a "small" dense (entity?) of matter and consciousness and formed the unfathomably large Universe that we inhabit today.

Deep, huh? :)

Let me continue and bring it home. That "God Entity" or "particle" or whatever it was, contained all the matter and energy and consciousness that the Universe has and is. I believe that organic "living" bodies are some kind of "consciousness magnets" that attract certain amounts of that "consciousness" that was "exploded" from being a single entity into trillions of tinier pieces (or something like that). The more advanced the organism (as far as brain development goes), the more of these consciousness bits the organism attracts. The more bits it attracts, the more self-aware the organism becomes. The more self-aware it becomes, the more potential it has to become intelligent.

If a "being" is intelligent, it has the potential to live life beyond practicing mere survival instincts, rather, it can think and ponder and try to truly understand it's own place in the scheme of things. With that in mind, a human-being's conscious "energy" (the soul?) could remain cohesive when he died, which would result in we mortals perhaps "seeing" a ghostly figure even after the organic body is dead. The alternative is the human who hasn't "led a full life" or something (whatever the rules are) and his "soul energy" fails to remain stuck together upon death so it "disbands" and reforms with other "conscious bits" to create a new soul for another new organic being. (this is where the idea of reincarnation comes into the picture, for those keeping score at home.)

Theoretically, this process will continue throughout time, until gravity collapses the Universe back together again, at which time "God" will be whole again, or until the Universe continues to expand and die, at which time "God" will die as well.

To link it to Star Wars myth, a fully trained Jedi, not only with the physical skills, but also a Jedi who is truly at peace with himself (or whatever the rules are), will remain whole upon his death, so much so that not only can he reappear in ghostly fashion, but his organic body will be transformed into pure energy as well, which to the human eye would appear to be a vanishing act.

Yoda is such a pure being and has his act so together, that his soul has "earned" that cohesiveness. Obi Wan and Anakin both find redemption in time as well, whereas Darth Maul is really a confused being, unsure of who he is, etc. so that his "soul" doesn't have the strength to remain whole.

Crazy, huh? And, no, I have not been smoking tonight. ;)