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BountyHunter
03-17-2002, 06:46 PM
Arial Orange
It seems like everybody hates George, since Episode I. People making petitions for Peter Jackson to direct episode III, and people are always complaing about him being a bad director. I totally disagree with this, I think that fans need to realize that they are expecting too much from this story. After all, George had the idea for Star Wars in the first place, its good enough he can bring us a saga so great. I understand that episode I was dissapointing, but some fans have been over reacting. Think of all the great scenes in TPM, the podrace, lightsaber fight, etc. Now I am nots saying TPM was my favorite movie in the saga so far, but it wasn't just plain horrible. And the main reason that fans consider it such a bad movie is probably because we were expecting so much from the movie, so right away we have noticed all of the horrible scenes, although I do admit that the darht maul deat was lame, jar jar is lame, and so is jake Lloyd. I just think that all star wars fans need to realize that George Lucas is a great director, and that this is his movie that he made for himself, he doesn't give a rats *** what you think of it.

billfremore
03-17-2002, 07:11 PM
I think that people tend to give George Lucas too much of a hard time over these movies.

I hear the same things about petitions for Peter Jackson and how Lucas was pressured about having Jar Jar in the last movie and that he's lost it.

Well people here's what I think...

George Lucas came up with something that affected all of us here greatly with the creation of Star Wars.
Now George was given the money by the studio originally to make A new hope and it turned out to be a huge success.

It could have ended there but George wanted to do more, so he put up his own money and gave us Empire, Jedi, Phantom Menace and soon AOTC. He did this because he wanted to tell more stories about Star wars. Not because fans demanded it.

George put Jar Jar in TPM because he wanted to show a "pathetic" exiled character eventually redeemed by his own actions.

For a similar reason he added ewoks instead of wookies to Jedi to show that even the smallest primitive creatures could overcome the odds.

George makes these movies because he wants to and because he can afford to.

People will always have criticism for these movies and George will keep doing what he wants to do despite the criticism.

I mean can anyone tell me if hypothetically, Jar Jar had a larger role in AOTC would you still go see it anyways?

Think about it.

2-1B
03-17-2002, 07:20 PM
I don't hate George Lucas, in fact he seems like a really cool guy ! I was watching the TPM DVD docs again a few days ago and he seems like a fun guy. I love his imagination, I like the way he works with his employees (on camera - that's all I am judging), and he seems like one hell of a father. Also, I rewatched the Biography episode recently and felt the same way :)

Re: TPM, it's my least favorite of the saga, but it was still wayyyyyy more fun than many movies I saw that year, and actually since '99. I have some problems with it, but I argue that it's more fun than "painful", and I hope AOTC is a lot better. I like Jar Jar and a lot of other things, I just think some of it was not very well realized.

I admit to making fun of Rick McCallum, but it's because I think he has it coming. The way the guy behaves in public is :rolleyes: inducing, and he is fair game for criticisms. Nothing vicious, but a good roast is more than in order. And Lucas is open to the same evaluations. The prequels too, for that matter :)

JediTricks
03-17-2002, 07:37 PM
I don't hate Lucas, I hate what he's become, how he does business these days, and how all that led to what I hate about Episode I. Just because a great man does a great thing once, that doesn't mean everything he does afterwards is equally great.

master jedi
03-17-2002, 07:37 PM
I don't hate Lucas. I hate Rick McCallum but I don't hate Lucas.

JediTricks
03-17-2002, 07:41 PM
I'd like to add that Lucas made the concious choice to surround himself with yes-men who wouldn't argue with him when he was wrong, and Lucas chose to change his company's past to better fit his needs, all so he could do more himself. Well, when someone does so much on their own, they are going to receive more of the credit for success AND more of the criticism for failure.

billfremore
03-17-2002, 09:19 PM
I can appreciate the feelings you have about how much Lucas has "sold-out".

I too feel the business side of Star Wars cheapens the child-like feelings I have towards the saga.

Unfotunately this seems to be a fact of life nowadays, I just try to look past it.

I just wanna see more Star Wars movies :D

chewie
03-17-2002, 10:00 PM
I don't hate Lucas. He's still produced a good trilogy already. The last movie wasn't so good, but it doesn't destroy the fact that he's done better in the past.

Obi-Don
03-18-2002, 05:13 AM
I don't think that most people hates GL. What I don't like is the way he has gotten all wraped up in himself and seems to have forgotten that the fans are what made his Star Wars so great. Without the fans there would have been only one movie.

I just want him to let go of his power trip and stop tring to do it all by himself. He is a great story teller but that doesn't make him a great director.We won't go into Good old Rick. :rolleyes:

LTBasker
03-18-2002, 05:28 AM
Hmm... It seems just about all the decisions that come out of Rick are bad but he never really seems to be put in the spotlight as Lucas does on things which seem like Rick would use for himself since he does appear to just be an ego maniac, maybe he's making George more spot-lighted to the public than himself because he knows that George has more of the better decisions and so we don't expect Rick but immediately take the bait and go after George so that Rick will seem like the "good guy."

I don't hate George, just wish he'd think about the only reason SW is still alive - The long devoted fans.

stillakid
03-18-2002, 12:17 PM
I don't know the guy, so it wouldn't be fair to say that I hate him...or like him for that matter. How can I? I don't know him.

I do know that I don't like TPM very much and I can reasonably extrapolate from Lucas's track record just why it wasn't as good as it could have been. It's disappointing turn of events in the Star Wars saga when everyone is so looking forward to reliving the excitement of their memories from twenty-odd years ago and being let down. It didn't need to be that way and knowing what we do about George, he should have known better. But, I suppose, he was doing what he thought was right at the time and hindsight is twenty-twenty. It would be satisfying for a lot of people if he had the courage to step up and admit that he erred with TPM...if he really feels that way of course. Maybe he doesn't. I don't know that answer to that.

Pendo
03-18-2002, 01:19 PM
Why would I hate the person who brought us Star Wars? I LOVE GEORGE LUCAS!:crazed:.

I think GWL gets a very hard time from many fans but he deserves better respect. I have my trust in him for Episode II.

PENDO!

SithDroid
03-18-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I don't hate Lucas, I hate what he's become, how he does business these days, and how all that led to what I hate about Episode I. Just because a great man does a great thing once, that doesn't mean everything he does afterwards is equally great.


I'd like to add that Lucas made the concious choice to surround himself with yes-men who wouldn't argue with him when he was wrong, and Lucas chose to change his company's past to better fit his needs, all so he could do more himself. Well, when someone does so much on their own, they are going to receive more of the credit for success AND more of the criticism for failure.

I agree JT. GL had a great idea back in the 70's. Just because he did then, doesn't mean he is still creative now. Plus in another thread that I started called "Would SW have been as popular if..." I talk about how a majority of SW success comes from the designers of the costumes, sets, models, props, special effects, etc... I mean do you honestly think SW would have been as popular had DV had a different costume or voice? Or if the music was done by somebody else? Or if the designers had designed totally lame creatures and aliens and droids? My guess is it wouldn't have been as popular. Anyways enough of the topic. If you want to see more, read that thread.

I agree with the yes-men thing as well. There is never anyone that seems to stand up to GL and say, well I think that that shouldn't be like that and it should be done this way because it would be more visually appealing. Everyoning is bowing to his every whim just because he IS GL. Hey a part of this business is learning to accept creative input and if he can't take the criticim for things that people don't like about his films, then he is in the wrong business in the first place. After all it takes 100's of people to make a movie and with one person calling ALL the shots, then they should accept the backlash if there is any.

Also, no one ever seemed to complain about the OT until the Special Edition Release when stupid things got changed and good lines got cut. It is all this recent tinkering with the OT and the horrible plot holes in TPM that have people talking about how GL has lost it. Well, IMO he has, but I'll still go see AOTC because I am a dedicated fan. And if I don't like something about the film, then I have a right to complain. After all this is a free country and it is freedom of speech.

As for hating GL.... I don't think anyone truly hates GL. How could you hate the guy that gave us SW AND Indiana Jones? I think most people are displeased with what he has become. That is my two-cents worth, well perhaps four. :D

BountyHunter
03-18-2002, 06:10 PM
But then again think about it, George Lucas gives all of his team great credit, you guys are making it sound like Gl just takes all the credit and says, "screw you guys you didn't help." Plus, you can't be positive George doesn't accept other people's opinions. Do you work with him? Think about it.
;)

SithDroid
03-18-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by BountyHunter
But then again think about it, George Lucas gives all of his team great credit, you guys are making it sound like Gl just takes all the credit and says, "screw you guys you didn't help." Plus, you can't be positive George doesn't accept other people's opinions. Do you work with him? Think about it.
;)

Well from all the special footage on TPM DVD it sure does look like they do. Half the people are always talking about how they have to meet with GL to get an idea of what he wants and how to makes changes to things he doesn't like. I can recall this specifically in two different areas. He takes the costume designer and Doug Chiang's renderings and starts drawing all over them telling them that this needs to be changed and that needs to be this color. If I were them, I'd be outraged for him ruining the rendering. Plus, what if the original version that they have is their vision and GL dislikes it. Either way he wins. They won't win because GL will find someone to make it the way he wants it. He is the director, so I do understand why he is being so meticulous, but doesn't he have enough faith in these people to let them have some creative freedom? All I'm saying is, is that if he would consult more people, then things wouldn't turn out as bad as they do. A prime example is TPM script. Do you honestly think anyone contended the script with GL? I don't think so. Why? Because he is the MAN for SW and no one should question him. Do you think that GL asked people if the midichlorian idea was a good one? Probably not. Do you think he asked people if Jar Jar would be an annoying character that no one liked? Probably not. He didn't want anyones input for the script and so because of this TPM has tons of plot holes. Heck a ton of TPM even contradicts the OT which HE CREATED. Hey, if you want to contradict yourself, fine, go ahead. But if people see the mistakes and feel the right to complain, then they have the right. Plus another thing that recently happend is that Ewan McGreggor stated somewhere that he disapproved of the title AOTC for EP II and was forced to retract his statement because it was not proper for him, someone associated with the film, to be talking about it in a derogatory way. See. So even an actor in the film can't even dispute the TITLE OF THE MOVIE. I'm done debating this issue. If you love TPM the way it is, then fine. Love it for what it is. But some of us who hold the OT dear to our hearts and have very vivid memories of it as a huge part of our lives when we were growing up do not appreciate it when a new trilogy arrives and messes with the original. I hope AOTC is better than TPM or I'm about to give up on the prequels. Nuff' said.

2-1B
03-19-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Also, no one ever seemed to complain about the OT until the Special Edition Release when stupid things got changed and good lines got cut. It is all this recent tinkering with the OT and the horrible plot holes in TPM that have people talking about how GL has lost it.

Actually, the ''complaining'' began with ROTJ. I was only 5 when it came out, so I don't know how people reacted then, but I do know there are many SW fans who love ANH and ESB while disliking ROTJ. :)

BountyHunter
03-19-2002, 06:53 AM
Those are some good points SithDroid, I agree with you on some of them. But I still think that Lucas feels he has total control over this story, which he does, but he takes it for grantet. So I can see your views because I share some of them with you, but I think that George should be able to shape his saga how he wants, although, he doesn't have to not except other opions on it. SO I can see where you are coming from when you talk about Lucas being the Star Wars guy; like the teacher is to the class, they don't argue with her opinions. If I were on the team, I would probably give some utput to George.

Starfig873
03-19-2002, 10:11 AM
Georgie, he just needs a hug. That's all. ;)

Lman316
03-19-2002, 11:43 AM
I don't hate George Lucas, and I sure don't hate The Phantom Menace or any other Star Wars film for that matter.
I've said this before: TPM is actually my second favorite of the four films out right now, Jedi being the first. However, I do understand that people saw a lot wrong with TPM, but I didn't (I didn't like Jake Llyod or Sam Jackson being in there, but I've learned to deal with that). But there are two other movies that we haven't even seen yet. TPM might seem a h*ll of a lot better after AOTC, and maybe even better than that after Episode 3.
Like I've said for Hasbro, I'm going to give GL the benefit of the doubt. I enjoyed the OT and I liked the Special Editions (the whole thing about Greedo, I really don't see how that takes anything away from Solo. Han was still pulling his blaster out with the intent to fire. I always saw that as Greedo kinda toying with Han, intentionally missing). This is ultimately HIS story, and this is how he sees it. Who am I to tell him that he's wrong? If he accepted every idea that anyone came to him with, it wouldn't be his story anymore. It would be everyone's story.
I don't know, I guess I'm basically ranting here, but I don't have a problem with Lucas or his movies. I don't just blindly accept them as good, but that's just how I feel about them. And I can't wait for Episode 2.

stillakid
03-19-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Lman316
But there are two other movies that we haven't even seen yet. TPM might seem a h*ll of a lot better after AOTC, and maybe even better than that after Episode 3.

Subsequent films won't change the many flaws that exist within The Phantom Menace itself as a stand alone film. It was a poorly told story that could've been tightened up with a minimum of effort...amongst other problems that contradict the original trilogy as it stands now.


Originally posted by Lman316 I enjoyed the OT and I liked the Special Editions (the whole thing about Greedo, I really don't see how that takes anything away from Solo. Han was still pulling his blaster out with the intent to fire. I always saw that as Greedo kinda toying with Han, intentionally missing).

The point of telling most stories is to watch how a character is changed, typically for the better, by the events that occur. In the original story, the character of Han Solo is a rather selfish rogue who isn't above shooting first. As events unfold around him, he comes into contact with a myriad of characters who effect him and somewhat against his will, his attitude towards life changes. In writer speak, this is called the "character arc."

What the redone Greedo scene did, was to essentially do away with the arc. Instead of changing throughout the films, the character of Han Solo remains the same nice guy throughout. No longer the selfish rogue who becomes an admiral guy, he is always an admiral guy from start to finish.


Originally posted by Lman316 This is ultimately HIS story, and this is how he sees it. Who am I to tell him that he's wrong? If he accepted every idea that anyone came to him with, it wouldn't be his story anymore. It would be everyone's story.

George built the story from 1975 or so until 1983. Nothing within the original trilogy conflicted with itself. Everything changed with TPM. Many elements of that story conflicted with events that George himself laid down as the foundation in the original trilogy. Yes, it's his story originally, but that doesn't give the creator carte blanche to alter whatever he wants whenever he wants without some kind of disclaimer to the audience. At a certain point in the process, the story becomes an entity of it's own. One that the writer is no longer creating, but one that the writer is trying to find. If you haven't written before, that may seem strange, but nevertheless, it is true.

Lman316
03-19-2002, 12:33 PM
Well, what I meant about seeing Episode 2 and 3, was that there might be things that could solve those contradictions to the OT.
It seems that a lot of people have "beef" with the midichlorians. Well, AOTC may explain why they were never mentioned in the OT ( I don't know why, but I keep hearing that line from ROTJ "from a cetain point of view" when the midi's are being talked about). That's really all I'm saying.
About Han Solo, it would seem that he was always that good guy throughout, anyway. At the end, when he comes back to help the rebels, that seems like a very swift change of attitude (even though I've heard in EU stories that Chewie got mad at him and made him go back, but I don't really follow or believe EU). If he wasn't at least somewhat of a decent person, he never would have come back.
And, on the contrary, I actually am a writer (at least in my mind:D). And to a writer, it doesn't matter how big a story gets, you will still consider it your "baby", so to speak. You feel that you could still change some stuff even if that story has been out for a while. New ideas will always come to you, and Lucas just took it upon himself to place some of those ideas into the SE of the original trilogy.
Again, for the Phantom Menace, I believe that Lucas will explain some of this stuff that people are having problems with. I can completely understand not mentioning Qui-Gon because he was dead and there was no point to bring him up (I think Rollo said it best, saying something like: "You will go to the Dagobah system where you were learn from Qui...oh, wait, he's dead, nevermind."). Yoda did, at one point, teach Obi-Wan, so what he said was true. About the midichlorians, I don't know. It wasn't that big of a deal to me. I do understand that it was to show that Anakin was strong in the ways of the Force. And although it might seem like an odd way to show that, I'm somewhat confident that Lucas will explain why there were never mentioned in the OT.

BountyHunter
03-19-2002, 04:52 PM
Yes, I totally agree with your points Lman316, thanks ofr backing me up. But I also must add to your point of things being explained in Episodes II and III that happened in episode I. Maybe that is one reason why George Lucas realeased the sequels before the prequels, because no one would understand the story if it started at episode I, then no one would like it, and he wouldn't be able to make all of the sequels.

SithDroid
03-19-2002, 05:06 PM
stillakid, I agree with you 100% on this one as well. Boy, I agree with you a lot. Great minds think alike.:rolleyes:

Anyway, 1st off GL only had a general idea of the history of the characters when he wrote the ANH. I doubt a lot of that backstory included Anakin as a slave boy who podraces and lives conveniently on Tatooine where Luke happens to be from. Also I don't think he had Yoda in mind at all because I can't remember any mention of him in aby of the original treatements for the Original SW that I have read. So if this is true and Yoda was created especially for ESB, then there was no backstory for Yoda being on a Jedi Council. And also I doubt that midichlorians were " the idea all along." He makes it up as he goes. I do not agree with him changing events within the OT to fit the new prequels which he probably (in 1975-1977) did not intend on making since there was no real story for them. Also if he really did intend to make them, then why not make them right after ROTJ was released seeing as SW was huge at the time. Why wait 16 years to tell a story you supposedly intended to tell all along? I don't buy it.

I agree with stillakid about the whole Han Solo issue. The Greedo event helps set up what kind of character he is and we see him evolve into a different character. One that actually begins to care about people other than himself.

stillakid mostly explains the rest, so I'll stop here.

Wolfwood319
03-19-2002, 05:34 PM
I agree with everything Stillakid said except the last part. Star Wars IS George Lucas's. He can change it however he wants. He's altering the original foundation he laid 25 years ago to fit with his own personal tastes that have grown in those 25 years.

I can't argue with there being a disclaimer, but even if there isn't one, he can still do whatever he wants to change Star Wars to his liking. The fans may hate him for it, but he can still do pretty much whatever he wants.

I don't like TPM, and what it did to the Star Wars mythos. And Greedo firing first is still one of the only scenes in cinema history that still make me cringe. However, I have constantly supported George Lucas's creative right. If artists spent 2 weeks on what they thought were good designs, and GL takes a 5 second look and doesn't like any of them, that's his call. If they want their original versions as final designs, they should go design stuff for themselves, not for someone else. They knew what they were getting into.

Fans will always have the right to argue, complain, and debate, but I don't think they should expect anything to come of it. And Lucas has the right to do whatever he wants to Star Wars as well. If the fans don't like it, maybe they shouldn't see the new movies when they are released.

Lman316
03-19-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Also I don't think he had Yoda in mind at all because I can't remember any mention of him in aby of the original treatements for the Original SW that I have read.


(This is not directed entirely at SithDroid, I'm not trying to start yet another argument, it's more of a rhetorical question) So, then why not debate this? Why haven't I heard anyone (at least I haven't heard anyone so far) say: "Well, Yoda wasn't in ANH. ESB just doesn't fit with ANH because he's adding characters that we've never seen before, he's changing everything! There is no continuity anymore."
The truth is that you can tear apart any of these films, regardless if they're prequels or the following movies in the original trilogy. You can find problems with ANH, ESB, ROTJ, TPM, and I know that anyone can find problems with AOTC and Episode 3, and they haven't even been released yet.
But - not to tell anyone that they're wrong, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion - if you like something, why bother to tear it apart?
I have seen people ask stuff like: Why didn't Qui-Gon get burnt when he plunged his lightsaber into the blast door? or Why was Lando made a General?; How could there only be two Sith if Vader and the Emperor were going to turn Luke, wouldn't that make three?; Why is Han Solo's shirt different from ESB to ROTJ (I never ever noticed this, and I still haven't, but I've heard this asked). If all these questions are asked while you're watching any of these movies, all the fantasy is taken out of it. You might as well start questioning how X-Wings can fly, or why any craft can make noise in the vacuum of space.
I may have gotten a little off the subject, but like I've said before, Episode 2 and 3 could explain a lot of the "problems" with TPM. It might explain why midi's and Qui-Gon were not mentioned, there by ending any contradiction, and answering any more questions. Lucas can be talented, and IMO, he is. I think he'll be creative and explain all of these things. But we'll have to wait and see when those movies actually come out.

SithDroid
03-19-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Lman316


I may have gotten a little off the subject, but like I've said before, Episode 2 and 3 could explain a lot of the "problems" with TPM. It might explain why midi's and Qui-Gon were not mentioned, there by ending any contradiction, and answering any more questions. Lucas can be talented, and IMO, he is. I think he'll be creative and explain all of these things. But we'll have to wait and see when those movies actually come out.

I doubt GL can fix the many problems that TPM has caused without going back and actually fixing TPM. I don't even think he knows about many of the problems. He realizes that the fans are upset about the whole midichlorian issue, but there is so much more that got overlooked, and quite frankly I don't think Lucas can fix it all.

As far as Qui-Gon never getting mentioned in the OT, there is really no reason for him to be mentioned since he was Obi-Wans master. What would be the point? Could you honestly see Obi-Wan saying, "He was the greatest Starpilot in the galaxy. And a good friend. And I owe it all to my master Qui-Gon Jinn for introducing us." There is no point and it derails from the plot and storyline. It is unimportant informantion that we don't need.

I'm not saying that GL isn't talented. All I'm saying is that a lot of the creativity that GL once had is gone. I believe GL is more concerned with using CGI technology than telling great stories. Great movies don't need all the special effects to be a good movie. A prime example is Memento. A great story that is superbly written. If GL would have concentrated more on the story by doing research of the OT, then TPM might have been truly great.

I do love SW. I have no problem with the OT. I never did until the release of the Special Edition and the release of TPM. IMHO the SW movie franchise has just gotten out of hand. I will support the prequels, but if I don't like something about them, then I have the right to complain just like anyone else who doesn't like a certain movie, or certain parts of any movie regardless of whether it is SW or not. When it all comes down to it, I'd rather watch the OT anyday over them.

stillakid
03-20-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Lman316


Why haven't I heard anyone (at least I haven't heard anyone so far) say: "Well, Yoda wasn't in ANH. ESB just doesn't fit with ANH because he's adding characters that we've never seen before, he's changing everything! There is no continuity anymore

Nobody has brought that up, because it isn't an issue. GL can add characters and situations to his heart's content. No one is arguing with that. It is the constantly growing story that keeps things interesting. The addition of Yoda and Lando into the saga doesn't create problems because the characters only add to the story, not detract from the foundation that ANH laid out.

Despite what it seems like I said, I think that it is his universe to do with as he wishes. However, when he adds characters and elements like Qui Gon and Midichlorians which absolutely contradict the foundation that he himself laid out, then there are problems. As has been discussed ad infinitum, Qui Gon isn't just a problem just because he wasn't mentioned in the OT. He is a problem because Old Ben says point blank that Yoda was his master. Old Ben says point blank that he discovered Anakin, saw what a great pilot he was, and then tried to teach him how to be a Jedi. The character of Qui Gon took all of that away from Obi Wan. I won't even bother going into the Midichlorian issue. By this point, if you don't see the contradictions, you never will.

But the point is this, and I've said it before...if George wanted to fundamentally change the essence of the story, then all he had to do was have a press conference and announce the disclaimer. Arthur C. Clarke wrote a special Forward in his book, 2020, I think it was, that explained specifically that the continuity established in his previous works would be ignored. Knowing that, readers weren't left scratching their heads wondering "what gives?" Lucas inexplicably altered the story that he established previously without warning and that, I believe, is the reason for the backlash.

SithDroid
03-20-2002, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


Nobody has brought that up, because it isn't an issue. GL can add characters and situations to his heart's content. No one is arguing with that. It is the constantly growing story that keeps things interesting. The addition of Yoda and Lando into the saga doesn't create problems because the characters only add to the story, not detract from the foundation that ANH laid out.

Despite what it seems like I said, I think that it is his universe to do with as he wishes. However, when he adds characters and elements like Qui Gon and Midichlorians which absolutely contradict the foundation that he himself laid out, then there are problems. As has been discussed ad infinitum, Qui Gon isn't just a problem just because he wasn't mentioned in the OT. He is a problem because Old Ben says point blank that Yoda was his master. Old Ben says point blank that he discovered Anakin, saw what a great pilot he was, and then tried to teach him how to be a Jedi. The character of Qui Gon took all of that away from Obi Wan. I won't even bother going into the Midichlorian issue. By this point, if you don't see the contradictions, you never will.

But the point is this, and I've said it before...if George wanted to fundamentally change the essence of the story, then all he had to do was have a press conference and announce the disclaimer. Arthur C. Clarke wrote a special Forward in his book, 2020, I think it was, that explained specifically that the continuity established in his previous works would be ignored. Knowing that, readers weren't left scratching their heads wondering "what gives?" Lucas inexplicably altered the story that he established previously without warning and that, I believe, is the reason for the backlash.

Here, here stillakid. I agree with you 100% as well once again. No need for me to elaborate since stillakid has the same views as myself.

One last point I'd like to make before I'm done debating this issue though. If indeed GL created the prequels to elaborate on the OT, then why did he stray so far away from continuity? I thought that the whole purpose of telling a story that happened before another story was to help provide support for the later story. If all the facts of the earlier storyline are different than the second storyline, then how are we supposed to BELIEVE that this is indeed what REALLY happened. If the novel series of SW with over 100+ books and the Darkhorse Comics with over 300+ can keep continuity straight, then you'd think that GL could od it with onlt 3 movies to deal with. Tons of chains do this, such as the TSR series. They each have 100's of titles and none of them contradict each other. How hard can it be to keep continuity. Not that hard if you really do your research, which IMO GL didn't really do.

I'm done with this topic for now.

billfremore
03-20-2002, 12:30 PM
ya know it's possible GL actually has a plan in mind and all will become clear once we have all 6 movies so all of our discussions could be moot...

Or I could just be talking out of my butt here :)

scruffziller
04-03-2002, 12:31 AM
Lucas doing these things feels like an angel of God falling from grace. He does these dopey things in EPS1 and then attempting to put N'Sync in the movie and cast his kids in it as well. He should know better. Thank God though mabey he is coming to his senses and woke up and pulled N'Sync's casting after the outcry. Hopefully he has learned from it and will bring Episode 2 AND 3 to us proudly. Putting Peter Jackson on the team for 3 would be an extremely good idea. Lucas would still need to be there though. Let Lucas do his Star Wars thing like he would but have Peter Jackson to be there to keep him in line and prevent Lucas from doing those...... bad things.

dirtybones
04-03-2002, 10:46 AM
:cool: Wow you all make great points on these movies. I can't even think of anything to say because you all made such great views about one of the greatest storys every told (IMO). I think thats why this story is so great. What other story has so many people looking at the same thing but seeing it so different? Thank you George Lucas and thanks to all the rest of you star wars freaks!

billfremore
04-03-2002, 11:01 AM
I find it interesting that Peter Jackson is being heralded as the saviour and the only man who can pull the Star Wars saga out of it's tailspin.

Can anyone tell me off the top of their head what he did before LOTR?

Peter Jackson did a fabulous job on LOTR becase he was a fan of the books and wanted to make the movies true to the story.

This does not make him qualified to "fix" Star Wars.

George Lucas will continue to do what George Lucas wants to do.

You can complain about the title, you can complain about the choice of actors, too much CGI, too much Jar Jar, etc. etc.

George will still tell the story he wants to tell and his movies will still make hundreds of millions of dollars despite all of our complaints, suggestions and petitions.

JEDIpartner
04-03-2002, 11:46 AM
I wouldn't still be here. I am still enjoying the series- inspite of all of the little "continuity errors". I still they are entertaining and will continue to enjoy them. Sure- we can discuss the "points of contention" as that is why there are the forums to do so. I think we might have problems with some of the plot points, but is that any reason to say we "hate" a person? If you don't approve of his choices... make your own damn films. That's really all I have to say.

SithDroid
04-03-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by billfremore
I find it interesting that Peter Jackson is being heralded as the saviour and the only man who can pull the Star Wars saga out of it's tailspin.

Can anyone tell me off the top of their head what he did before LOTR?

Peter Jackson did a fabulous job on LOTR becase he was a fan of the books and wanted to make the movies true to the story.

This does not make him qualified to "fix" Star Wars.


I agree. No one would have suggested Peter Jackson for TPM 6years ago when they began filming because no one really knew who he was at that time. LOTR was a great film, but to say that Jackson should take over is just :crazed: . I could think of a ton of other directors out there that are just as talented and who could do an excellent job if they were allowed to direct a SW film.

stillakid
04-03-2002, 08:58 PM
For the unimpressive resume for Peter Jackson, visit www.imdb.com. LOTR wasn't that great of a movie. The fx, of course, looked good (which is his background), but the story wasn't his and it wasn't particularly "gripping" anyway.

Nah, this is George's blunder to send into oblivion (the prequels), so let him figure it out.

Lobito
04-17-2002, 02:43 PM
Just for the record..i dont hate GL either. In fact i give him thanks for what he gave us...Star Wars.:D

bigbarada
04-18-2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
He makes it up as he goes. I do not agree with him changing events within the OT to fit the new prequels which he probably (in 1975-1977) did not intend on making since there was no real story for them. Also if he really did intend to make them, then why not make them right after ROTJ was released seeing as SW was huge at the time. Why wait 16 years to tell a story you supposedly intended to tell all along? I don't buy it.


When GL finished ROTJ, he stated that he was fed up with the limited technology involved in making special effects. Even with total control and an unlimited budget for ROTJ, he was unable to do a lot of the stuff he wanted because the technology simply was not there. When Jurassic Park came out, GL decided that visual effects technology had finally advanced enough to allow him to make the prequels the way he envisioned them. I remember when the fan club dissolved after ROTJ, the basic word from Lucasfilm was that Star Wars would be back; but GL needed some time to work on other projects (like Howard the Duck and Tucker :rolleyes: ). So for those of us raised on the OT, it was never a matter of "if" Star Wars would come back, but "when."

I fully understand his decision and I really respect what he is doing with the prequels. Simply, making his movies, his way with his money. Hey, if I was a billionare, I would do the same thing. I also find it funny that a $115 million movie can make over $900 million in worldwide ticket sales and be called a failure. :confused:

Wolfwood319
04-18-2002, 01:10 AM
I also find it funny that a $115 million movie can make over $900 million in worldwide ticket sales and be called a failure.

I also find this funny. Not as funny as so called "fans" who do nothing but badmouth GL and Star Wars, but funny enough.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


When GL finished ROTJ, he stated that he was fed up with the limited technology involved in making special effects. Even with total control and an unlimited budget for ROTJ, he was unable to do a lot of the stuff he wanted because the technology simply was not there. When Jurassic Park came out, GL decided that visual effects technology had finally advanced enough to allow him to make the prequels the way he envisioned them. I remember when the fan club dissolved after ROTJ, the basic word from Lucasfilm was that Star Wars would be back; but GL needed some time to work on other projects (like Howard the Duck and Tucker :rolleyes: ). So for those of us raised on the OT, it was never a matter of "if" Star Wars would come back, but "when."

I fully understand his decision and I really respect what he is doing with the prequels. Simply, making his movies, his way with his money. Hey, if I was a billionare, I would do the same thing. I also find it funny that a $115 million movie can make over $900 million in worldwide ticket sales and be called a failure. :confused:


A commercial success, for sure! But, you have to admit, even away from these forums, that the general word on the street was one of dissatisfaction. No, most people don't dissect it the way we do, so there are varying levels. Part of that profit is DVD sales, and a lot of people buy things all the time that aren't "perfect" for them, just so long as they are entertaining enough. So, in my opinion, when it is described as a "failure," I don't think that anyone truly disputes the success, based purely on the cash that it generated, but "critically," most people weren't as entertained by it as they were with the original films. They expected a certain story quality that they didn't feel was delivered. Plus, after twenty years, people were excited to see another one. I don't know what the numbers would be, but there was a built in audience for at least one viewing, whether they liked it or not. And, unlike most franchises, this one is truly global, so where one film might not get nearly every ticket buyer on the planet to want to see it, The Phantom Menace had that advantage built in, regardless of how good or bad it might have been. But in the end, like I said, I think that most people found it entertaining enough to fill their desire to continue watching the saga that peaked their interests 25 years ago.

Hell, even with all the ranting I seem to do (on only two distinct elements of the film, mind you), even I own a copy of the DVD. In fact, maybe that would make a great poll question. Something like, "For those of you who were disappointed with TPM, did you still buy the DVD for home viewing?" And hopefully, the discussion would center on "why?" Why would someone purchase something that they weren't entirely happy with?

How do you suggest polls?:confused:

bigbarada
04-18-2002, 11:52 AM
Go to the Poll Suggestion thread in the Polls section. I came up with one just recently that I think would at least lead to some heated debates.;)

The $900 million was in worldwide theater ticket sales, the DVD sales are a separate number altogether. Even though I hear TPM passed Gladiator as the highest selling DVD of all time.

Funny, in my personal experience I've only actually met two people personally who dislikes TPM and they weren't even Star Wars fans. I remember walking out of the theater with friends and their wives after just seeing TPM and if anything Ep1 piqued their interest in a series of films they never really gave a second thought to. All of a sudden everybody was interested in how this cute little boy could become Darth Vader. And I think that was the point of EP1, GL knew the hardcore fans were going to watch the movie no matter what, he also knew the hardcore fans would be the most difficult to please. Thus he designed the movie to draw in a new audience and expand upon his original storyline. GL even said it himself before Ep1's release, he expected most of the lifelong Star Wars fans to really dislike TPM because it was a very different kind of story compared to the OT. However, it is the story he wanted to tell. So I say, more power to him.

I see it like this: (and many hardcore fans will find this hard to swallow) it's not that the prequels fall short of the OT. It's the simple fact that the OT fell far short of GL's original ideas.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Go to the Poll Suggestion thread in the Polls section. I came up with one just recently that I think would at least lead to some heated debates.;)

The $900 million was in worldwide theater ticket sales, the DVD sales are a separate number altogether. Even though I hear TPM passed Gladiator as the highest selling DVD of all time.

Funny, in my personal experience I've only actually met two people personally who dislikes TPM and they weren't even Star Wars fans. I remember walking out of the theater with friends and their wives after just seeing TPM and if anything Ep1 piqued their interest in a series of films they never really gave a second thought to. All of a sudden everybody was interested in how this cute little boy could become Darth Vader. And I think that was the point of EP1, GL knew the hardcore fans were going to watch the movie no matter what, he also knew the hardcore fans would be the most difficult to please. Thus he designed the movie to draw in a new audience and expand upon his original storyline. GL even said it himself before Ep1's release, he expected most of the lifelong Star Wars fans to really dislike TPM because it was a very different kind of story compared to the OT. However, it is the story he wanted to tell. So I say, more power to him.

I see it like this: (and many hardcore fans will find this hard to swallow) it's not that the prequels fall short of the OT. It's the simple fact that the OT fell far short of GL's original ideas.

That all makes sense. I understand that he was never pleased entirely with the OT, but I always understood that to be his own disappointment with the means to tell the story, not the story itself. So, with the advent of newer technologies, he can go back and "correct" shots that didn't "look" the way he wanted them to.

As far as the story goes, there are two elements to that discussion. One, being with the elements of the story itself, and two being with the quality of the writing as far as screenwriting goes.

So, for the first, we've all been 'round the block a million times about what might have been inconsistencies in the plot or whatever. A certain (who knows how many) number of people picked up on that either consciously or subconsciously and reacted accordingly. Some people just don't have the ability (training?) to look at the elements of a movie (any story, really) and separate them into individual pieces to evaluate each on their own merits. So, if someone off the street just says that they liked it but they had a couple problems with it, he probably couldn't pinpoint exactly what it was that bothered him. That describes the majority of moviegoers I think.

The second issue is with the actual quality of the screenplay, in regards to technique. Regardless of the story being told, it really was a poorly written script. The pacing was inconsistent, the Tatooine sequences lagged, much of the dialogue (ie, yippie!) wasn't so good. The elements of the script themselves that George wanted in there could be kept intact, but the script itself can easily be tightened up to make it flow much better. I should commit them to page one day, but it didn't take much effort to rewrite many of the sequences still keeping everything that George wanted to say...even keeping Qui Gon and Midichlorians, if you can believe that coming from me.:eek:

So, yeah, the OT wasn't what he wanted it to be production-designwise, and I think that most fans knew that and expected some kind of tweaking to go on after the fact, but it was his delving into changing the actual story that so many people have had a difficult time adjusting to.

But, that's just my opinion. ;)



Oh, I forgot, what was the poll question you submitted? Anything that creates controversy is definitely worth a poll! :)

bigbarada
04-18-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Oh, I forgot, what was the poll question you submitted? Anything that creates controversy is definitely worth a poll! :)

It just asked whether GL should remake the OT, now that the prequels have raised the standard of special effects. The possible responses I chose ranged from redoing the entire film with a rewritten script and new actors to the purist standpoint that the SE's were akin to heresy.

Honestly, though, a part of me wants to see the OT redone completely. When I saw the most recent Ep2 trailer and the shots of Obi-Wan in the asteroid field, my first reaction was,"wow, that's cool!" My second reaction was, "boy, that's going to make the ESB asteroid scene look pathetic." So it is kind of sad to think that when people watch the films for the first time, in order they will see an enormous drop in quality as far as production design and visual effects.

Of course, there is the other part of me that goes the way of the purist, in that I don't believe anything should be changed even if it was a mistake. Look at Bossk, he was never supposed to be in the movie; but when ILM couldn't create the giant purple octopus from the script, Kershner simply slapped together bits and pieces of costumes from the ANH Cantina. Thus Bossk, my favorite bounty hunter was born.

Besides, GL is nowhere near the same frame of mind he was in the 70's and early 80's, and the performances of Ford, Fisher, Hamill, Mayhew and especially Alec Guiness are irreplaceable.

Although rewriting ROTJ could fix a few things, like the Luke/Leia relationship (which I never liked) and bring back the intended grandiose nature of the Final Battle; which was supposed to take place over the Imperial City (Coruscant) and the Rebellion was to be going up against two Death Stars at once!

RooJay
04-18-2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by billfremore
I think that people tend to give George Lucas too much of a hard time over these movies.

I hear the same things about petitions for Peter Jackson and how Lucas was pressured about having Jar Jar in the last movie and that he's lost it.

Well people here's what I think...

George Lucas came up with something that affected all of us here greatly with the creation of Star Wars.
Now George was given the money by the studio originally to make A new hope and it turned out to be a huge success.

It could have ended there but George wanted to do more, so he put up his own money and gave us Empire, Jedi, Phantom Menace and soon AOTC. He did this because he wanted to tell more stories about Star wars. Not because fans demanded it.

George put Jar Jar in TPM because he wanted to show a "pathetic" exiled character eventually redeemed by his own actions.

For a similar reason he added ewoks instead of wookies to Jedi to show that even the smallest primitive creatures could overcome the odds.

George makes these movies because he wants to and because he can afford to.

People will always have criticism for these movies and George will keep doing what he wants to do despite the criticism.

I mean can anyone tell me if hypothetically, Jar Jar had a larger role in AOTC would you still go see it anyways?

Think about it.

I'm with you bill. You're 100% right about all of this. I think there are too many "fans" around nowadays that at least SOUND like they hate both Lucas AND Star Wars. What's the deal? Most of these people seem to have started hating the movies as much as they hate the EU; what's left? At which point do you stop considering yourself a fan? What makes these people consider themselves fans in the first place? Do these people think the only true fans the people who claim to only like the original Star Wars (what we now know as A New Hope)? George Lucas's vision has grown and even changed through the years. How much longer can these people call themselves fans if they insist on picking apart and criticizing every little detail that Lucas has added to HIS OWN story since the first chapter we were offered? Now some of these people are talking about how they don't want Lucas to write OR direct the next movie; they want to see Lucas removed from his own creation...his own STORY. :( To me that's just not Star Wars. C'mon George! I'm with ya all the way!

Wolfwood319
04-18-2002, 10:34 PM
That's a hell of an idea for a poll, BB!

I like it. That would gather storms of debate and controversary. Tycho, get on this right away!

bigbarada
04-19-2002, 01:12 AM
Now that everyone is sick of arguing about midichlorians and Qui-Gonn, we need something new and fresh to fight about until Ep2's release (because we all know there will be several SSG regulars who hate the next movie, I can almost call them out by name right now:rolleyes: ).

Excellent question, RooJay! At what point does the frustration outweigh the enjoyment? At what point do we stop being fans? Personally, I don't know why people who hate Ep1 even post in the Ep1 section. The same goes for any part of these forums. I dislike EU and the Trading Card games, thus I steer clear of any thread or section regarding those areas of SW. Why do people who seems to hate every aspect of SW even visit here? I never liked the film Pulp Fiction, so why would I go to a Pulp Fiction discussion forum and spend all of my time there? It makes no sense.

Wolfwood319
04-19-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Now that everyone is sick of arguing about midichlorians and Qui-Gonn, we need something new and fresh to fight about until Ep2's release (because we all know there will be several SSG regulars who hate the next movie, I can almost call them out by name right now:rolleyes: ).

:crazed: :stupid: :sur: :eek: :rolleyes:

That is a good point. I brought that same exact argument up when I first started posting here, and was immediately dismissed for it. I think many of these "fans" should re-evaluate their level of fandom and decide if boards like these are really the place for them.

Discussing the movies is one thing. But to downright despise them and talk down to those who don't is something else.

billfremore
04-19-2002, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319

Discussing the movies is one thing. But to downright despise them and talk down to those who don't is something else.

I believe it was a wise man who said:

"This site is full of people who like to come and bash movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't seem to stop talking about"

SithDroid
04-19-2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Now that everyone is sick of arguing about midichlorians and Qui-Gonn, we need something new and fresh to fight about until Ep2's release (because we all know there will be several SSG regulars who hate the next movie, I can almost call them out by name right now:rolleyes: ).

Excellent question, RooJay! At what point does the frustration outweigh the enjoyment? At what point do we stop being fans? Personally, I don't know why people who hate Ep1 even post in the Ep1 section. The same goes for any part of these forums. I dislike EU and the Trading Card games, thus I steer clear of any thread or section regarding those areas of SW. Why do people who seems to hate every aspect of SW even visit here? I never liked the film Pulp Fiction, so why would I go to a Pulp Fiction discussion forum and spend all of my time there? It makes no sense.

Well someone could say the same of you bigbarada for dismissing the EU and Trading cards. Does that make YOU any more less of a fan? I don't think that a lot of people hate every aspect of SW, I just think that (especially concerning EP I) that a lot of fans were let down, including myself. I know that you enjoy the movie, but there are many who have problems with it. The inconsistencies in the script, horrible writing, and childish characters are what people complain about. I have had my go around with TPM and it is probably my least favorite film of the 4 we have right now. Don't get me wrong, I like many aspects of the film, but I think that it could have been tightened up quite a bit. Plus I don't see people here bashing Ewan McGreggor for saying that he didn't like EP I. He stated it in an interview and then was forced to retract his statement because it wouldn't look right for an actor associated with the film to bad mouth it. Everyone has the right to complain if they like. I like the OT way better than TPM, but I don't get all riled up when people start bashing the OT.

stillakid
04-19-2002, 03:01 PM
I'm certain that I'm that list to be called out by name.:sur:

But I like to think that I'm a better fan of the idea of Star Wars because I choose to look at each film as critically as I do. It's easy to sit back and accept everything that flies off the screen as being as good as it can possibly be, but the reason that I am as critical of TPM as I am is because I know that Lucas is capable of doing much better than that. He's proven his ability to be a great storyteller in a variety of capacities and TPM did not live up to the standards that I know he is capable of.

For instance, I don't tear apart Steven Segal movies, as bad as they are, because I know that those films are about as good as they will ever get.

It's all relative. I'm hard on TPM because it should have and could have been far better than it was, and that decision is based on Lucas's own record of achievement.

In other words, are these forums only for people who love each and every single frame of the movies? That's not a fan club, that's a cult.

billfremore
04-19-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I'm certain that I'm that list to be called out by name.:sur:

In other words, are these forums only for people who love each and every single frame of the movies? That's not a fan club, that's a cult.

Actually these forums, I'm sure, are primarily intended for discussions like this one.

I agree with you on the fact that if we settled only for what was given to us, nothing would ever be improved.

TPM could have been better, but I like to take the approach that it was simply a beginning of a story.
As a stand-alone movie it wsn't very good.
I'd like to think that Episodes 2 and 3 will make it a better movie in retrospect.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and rejoin my cult and do some chanting. :D

Begin chant:
Midichlorians are good, Greedo shooting first is good...

JediTricks
04-19-2002, 05:48 PM
You know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of fans who are so fanatical about George Lucas that they can't make up their own minds about Episode I and have to just hug the LFL party line as hard as they can lest an original opinion shakes loose.
I'm not saying everybody who likes Ep 1 is like that, but I'm saying everybody who falls into that category makes me sick.


Here's something that bothers me, why is it that many folks who like most of Ep 1 are so angry and vocal about those who don't like most of Ep 1? Ep 1 is a small part of SW (and... EP 2 POTENTIAL SPOILER: ...if what I hear about Ep 2 is true, a very small part of SW) and as pointed out, being a SW fan doesn't mean you have to love every facet, there are a lot of different avenues to discuss.

RooJay
04-19-2002, 06:29 PM
A better way to phrase my question would be this:
Up to which point can you still call yourself a fan?

RooJay
04-19-2002, 07:26 PM
For no particular reason, here is a list of some of the things that some people claim to hate about Star Wars and still call themselves fans (Please be aware that, by no means, am I trying to state who has the right to call themselves a fan and who doesn't):

the Dialogue
Luke's dialog in ANH or Mark Hamill's delivery
the "why didn't the Empire/ Rebels/ etc. just do this..." factor
the numerous editing and looping errors in ANH (and throughout the saga)
C-3PO's personality
Tarkin's apparent outranking of Vader in ANH
the fact that Vader was searching for Luke even though he spends most of ESB chasing Han
Boba Fett
the physics of the Star Wars universe
Boba Fett's death in ROTJ
the "fake" quality of some of the creatures
perceived continuity errors between films of the saga and within individual films
the Ewoks
the fact that the Ewoks helped the rebels defeat the Empire
the Emperor's perceived weakness or lack of foresight
Vader's unmasking
the fact that no main characters died in the sequels
the return of background and minor supporting characters at various points throughout the story
the idea that George Lucas feels he has the right to alter things he didn't like about certain films
Lucas' introduction of new concepts into the story
Lucas' re-use of older concepts in the prequels
the Gungans and Jar Jar Binks
Darth Maul
the young age of some of the characters upon their introduction into the prequels
the acting throughout the saga (OT and PT)
the fact that Ep. 1 was apparently geared towards younger viewers
the addition of new characters to the story in the prequels
Lucas' casting choices
Battle Droids
Nemoidians
CG characters
the look of the designs used for the prequels
being asked to suspend disbelief

This list could be much bigger, but this has all been brought up before in these forums. I will not comment on my views towards any of the points I have listed above, or the validity of any arguments behind them. I merely am presenting them here for discussion.

Wooooof
04-19-2002, 10:24 PM
Episode 1 was a good movie, that had it's flaws. I know many people don't like it but that's for them to decide.

No reason to hate Lucas, he's just doing what we all want to do. Making his movie, his way.

stillakid
04-19-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
For no particular reason, here is a list of some of the things that some people claim to hate about Star Wars and still call themselves fans (Please be aware that, by no means, am I trying to state who has the right to call themselves a fan and who doesn't):

the Dialogue
Luke's dialog in ANH or Mark Hamill's delivery
the "why didn't the Empire/ Rebels/ etc. just do this..." factor
the numerous editing and looping errors in ANH (and throughout the saga)
C-3PO's personality
Tarkin's apparent outranking of Vader in ANH
the fact that Vader was searching for Luke even though he spends most of ESB chasing Han
Boba Fett
the physics of the Star Wars universe
Boba Fett's death in ROTJ
the "fake" quality of some of the creatures
perceived continuity errors between films of the saga and within individual films
the Ewoks
the fact that the Ewoks helped the rebels defeat the Empire
the Emperor's perceived weakness or lack of foresight
Vader's unmasking
the fact that no main characters died in the sequels
the return of background and minor supporting characters at various points throughout the story
the idea that George Lucas feels he has the right to alter things he didn't like about certain films
Lucas' introduction of new concepts into the story
Lucas' re-use of older concepts in the prequels
the Gungans and Jar Jar Binks
Darth Maul
the young age of some of the characters upon their introduction into the prequels
the acting throughout the saga (OT and PT)
the fact that Ep. 1 was apparently geared towards younger viewers
the addition of new characters to the story in the prequels
Lucas' casting choices
Battle Droids
Nemoidians
CG characters
the look of the designs used for the prequels
being asked to suspend disbelief

This list could be much bigger, but this has all been brought up before in these forums. I will not comment on my views towards any of the points I have listed above, or the validity of any arguments behind them. I merely am presenting them here for discussion.

I think that I understand what you're getting at. There's no baseline measurement for this sort of thing called fandom, but based on the above list, I'd have to say that if every one of those things bothers you for some reason, then you'd have to ask yourself why you even bother with any of it.

In general, I suppose, the point at which it ceases being fun to see, talk about, or collect things is the point at which you are no longer a fan. While it may provide amusement to rip on something that other people enjoy (boy bands, for instance), that is usually only momentary happiness and boredom with that hobby sets in quickly. However if you are a music afficienado and you have some very good arguments supporting your distaste for boybands, then that is a different story. Ripping on them is no longer just an emotional sugar-high, rather it is part of a larger love for music.

I enjoy really well made movies. I consider the Original Star Wars films as all being very well done, both as stand alone films and the way they worked together as a team. Ep I came along it suffered as a stand alone movie, in terms of it just being any other movie. It was just a poorly done film in many respects. When viewed as a Star Wars film, the implications got worse as we had a higher standard to judge it from. It failed to live up to those expectations, thus the general feeling of being let-down by just about everyone I know that saw it.

2-1B
04-20-2002, 12:09 AM
Hmmm, looking at Roojay's list, I see some things that I like and some things I don't care for much . . . but compare that to the feelings of every other fan here, and there will be such a spectrum of things we agree and disagree on. I think that makes this place entertaining. :)

Wooooof
04-20-2002, 01:41 AM
Dangit! If you don't like Ep1 then you're just a big dumb stupid!!! :D:D:D:D

There are many aspects of the OT that I like and dislike, with Luke and Leia being twins the only major story element that contradicts the established continuity. It brings up many other questions that can't really be answered without major allusions on the part of the audience (why didn't Vader sense who Leia was during the mind probe on the Death Star? The incredible convenience of Leia's droid falling in Luke's lap, etc.)

There are also many elements of TPM that I thought could have been done better; but it doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the film. (the killer fish sequence taking time away from the film, that could have been better spent developing the story.) All in all, I really like TPM along with all the other SW films.

While I wouln't go so far as to say that George Lucas is a genius, I do have a lot of respect for what he does. I think the prequels give us a unique glimpse as to what might have been for Star Wars if Lucas had his way all along. Some might argue that Star Wars would have been less popular and they might be right. But these prequels are 'pure George' and I'm glad we get this chance to look into his unrestrained imagination.

When all is said and done, the prequels will be a unique entity in Star Wars. And if you like them, you can consider them an essential part of SW canon. If you hate them, then dismiss them the way most of us dismiss EU. Your choice.

stillakid
04-20-2002, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Wooooof
There are many aspects of the OT that I like and dislike, with Luke and Leia being twins the only major story element that contradicts the established continuity. It brings up many other questions that can't really be answered without major allusions on the part of the audience (why didn't Vader sense who Leia was during the mind probe on the Death Star? The incredible convenience of Leia's droid falling in Luke's lap, etc.)



How does that contradict continuity? Convenient, yes. Contradictory, no.

With the 11th-hour introduction of Midichlorian's into the picture, the Vader sensing Leia thing you bring up does inspire questions, but I'd be more apt to blame TPM on it, than the OT, since precedent is set by elements that are created in the past.

Wooooof
04-20-2002, 05:16 PM
Okay, you're right. From a certain point of view.;) I guess I was just really looking forward to the third trilogy which was supposed to focus on that "other," then GL decided to drop the idea and tie up the loose end by making Leia the other. At least, that was what the rumor was back in 1980-81.

I still don't see how Midis and Qui-Gonn contradict the OT at all, why don't you explain it to me in full detail and don't leave anything out. ;) :D:D:D

chewie
04-20-2002, 06:30 PM
Leia being Luke's sister. Vader being Luke's father. And of course the ep1 addition of Vader not only being born and raised on his son's homeworld, but also creating C-3P0. And of course that R2-D2 just happened to be stationed on board the Naboo royal cruiser. Vader being Luke's dad was fine by me. It also allowed for that extra bit of dramatic (if not exactly necessary) impact to the end of ESB. However, Leia being Luke's brother really didn't do much for the story other than to make Luke enraged at Vader for a minute.

I put up with the Leia/Vader stuff when I saw the OT, but the new stuff that arose in E1 takes the cake in silly and needless ways to relate characters to each other. And to giving some of the dumbest reasons for keeping the droids in the prequel trilogy

Heck, the midichlorian issue didn't bother me as much as to how close-knit the Star Wars universe was made to be.

E1 was so good, and so bad for a variety of reasons, which have been discussed to pieces already. Its not the worst film in the world for me, and I don't exactly hate it, but the stuff that takes place in E1 does make me :rolleyes:

I guess I'm about to find out how potentially silly/unecessary the apparent inclusion of a popular bounty hunter is in epII. I only hope it doesn't make me :rolleyes: , or I might just :dead:

stillakid
04-20-2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Wooooof
I still don't see how Midis and Qui-Gonn contradict the OT at all, why don't you explain it to me in full detail and don't leave anything out. ;) :D:D:D


I don't dare. Really. It's been discussed to death in this thread and in a myriad of others. I don't think I have it in me to go another 13 rounds trying to back up ironclad arguments. The last one came all the way down to how just a single word was annunciated by the actor in the film. Crazy, huh? In the end, if you don't want to see it, you won't no matter what anyone says. All I can offer is that you head through the tomes of threads in the archives and search out the arguments pro and con from me and plenty of others, most of whom have tired of this long before me.:)

Wooooof
04-20-2002, 07:35 PM
Oh don't worry, I've read them all so I know how tired everybody is of discussing it. You've made some good points for your side and others have made good points for their's. I'm under the distinct philsophy that these are just movies and as long as any continuity hiccups don't get in the way of my enjoying the movie then I'm really not worried about it.

I used to argue differently under my alter ego on these boards, but now I just want to enjoy this time and not look at these movies with a critical eye until after they are all released. I'm sure you know who my alter ego is.;)

stillakid
04-20-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Wooooof
Oh don't worry, I've read them all so I know how tired everybody is of discussing it. You've made some good points for your side and others have made good points for their's. I'm under the distinct philsophy that these are just movies and as long as any continuity hiccups don't get in the way of my enjoying the movie then I'm really not worried about it.

I used to argue differently under my alter ego on these boards, but now I just want to enjoy this time and not look at these movies with a critical eye until after they are all released. I'm sure you know who my alter ego is.;)


I come from the city where Superman flies around, so with your glasses on, I have no idea who you are. Sorry. Will you ever reveal your true self, or will this be a guessing game until the Convergence when you finally meet your nemesis and the cowl is torn away?

That's not a bad idea though. I could form an alter-ego, then log on and argue with myself! Ultimately my superior intellect would win out and I could concede to myself. Nothing like self-gratification. Hmm, on the other hand, there's nothing like a lap-dance to fulfill that need. :D

saladin
04-20-2002, 11:09 PM
i feel the same as woof, its mainly how huch i enjoy the movies not a history

SithDroid
04-21-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



I come from the city where Superman flies around, so with your glasses on, I have no idea who you are. Sorry. Will you ever reveal your true self, or will this be a guessing game until the Convergence when you finally meet your nemesis and the cowl is torn away?

That's not a bad idea though. I could form an alter-ego, then log on and argue with myself! Ultimately my superior intellect would win out and I could concede to myself. Nothing like self-gratification. Hmm, on the other hand, there's nothing like a lap-dance to fulfill that need. :D

stillakid - Wooooof HAS stated who is alter ego is in another thread from a while back. If you want to check the archives then I'm sure you could figure it out. If not PM me and I can tell you. That way, at least, his alter ego will not be revealed to everyone without them having to investigate. Hey what good is an alter ego if it's not a secret?

stillakid
04-21-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid


stillakid - Wooooof HAS stated who is alter ego is in another thread from a while back. If you want to check the archives then I'm sure you could figure it out. If not PM me and I can tell you. That way, at least, his alter ego will not be revealed to everyone without them having to investigate. Hey what good is an alter ego if it's not a secret?

I'm keen to guess! :D Does Wooooof have any superpowers? Xray vision? Super strength? Can he destroy the world?*


*credit to The Tick

RooJay
04-21-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



I don't dare. Really. It's been discussed to death in this thread and in a myriad of others. I don't think I have it in me to go another 13 rounds trying to back up ironclad arguments. The last one came all the way down to how just a single word was annunciated by the actor in the film. Crazy, huh? In the end, if you don't want to see it, you won't no matter what anyone says. All I can offer is that you head through the tomes of threads in the archives and search out the arguments pro and con from me and plenty of others, most of whom have tired of this long before me.:)

Couldn't have said it better myself!:D

DarthBrandon
05-07-2002, 06:48 PM
George is the man with a Vision, it's his vision and of course he has the final say. We are still going to see it to find out what happens next. Even if we don't like things about some films he'll (George) never be able to please us all.

corporal AMF
05-07-2002, 07:06 PM
Uncle Georgie make wonderfull movies that were a milestone in my childhood and most of us feel the same........in 1998 he wanted to give to the new generations and to the old fans a new glimpse of what was Star Wars..........He failed, that's my impression....I also believe he will make a logical link, believeable, through Ep 2 and 3, but TPM was good enough for childs and for older fans, that's all.....AOTC will be better an EP3 will probably leave us with our jaws hanging.....
He also made a mistake by releasing even underwear, pillows, condoms and spaceshuttles with the EP1 logo..... originally we had action figures and a couple books......

But hey, times are a' changing, this is a new century...we have free will (I pressume)..so I'll watch the movie, buy the DVD, and get some cool looking figures.......:)

There are no reason to hate anybody

corporal AMF
05-07-2002, 07:08 PM
PD: Only Rick McCallum is the owner of my negative thouhgts!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

RooJay
05-07-2002, 07:40 PM
I'm sorry, in which way did he fail to give new generations a glimpse of what is Star Wars? You yourself say in the same post that Ep. 1 was good enough for children and older fans alike. I don't understand. Sorry.

corporal AMF
05-07-2002, 08:32 PM
I said Good enough....It wasn't a generation icon.......just a movie with good efects......I believe that the core is in the OT
Just my opinion

stillakid
05-07-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by corporal AMF
condoms

Um, not to get too graphic here, but I don't think my wife would let me near her with one of those.:eek:

2-1B
05-13-2002, 02:53 AM
Did they really release SW condoms? Weird.

bigbarada
05-13-2002, 04:42 AM
I think he is referring to the episode of "Two Guys, A Girl and A Pizza Place" where one of them uses a glow in the dark condom called a 'Lightsaber.' I don't think there ever were any SW liscensed condoms, GL is far too protective of the liscense to allow something like that.

SithDroid
05-13-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
condoms, GL is far too protective

LOL, sorry that could be taken out of context BB. I couldn't help myself. :D

bigbarada
05-14-2002, 02:36 AM
Not a problem, don't think I'm going to forget about it though.;):p:D

skyywalkerr
05-23-2002, 09:44 PM
Remember the days before the internet when you could just enjoy a movie and not have to dwell on every little miniscule thing that was wrong with it, then see those words go to thousands if not millions of people? As a person who has worked as an employee and the boss, I can say that if I have someone who works for me...that I am paying out of my own pocket...then chances are, yeah, I am gonna have the last word. Does that make me evil and narcissistic? No, it makes me the boss. Since when were these movies made by McCaigfilm Ltd.? or Biggarfilm Ltd? I thought when I watched them the last time they said Lucasfilm Ltd. Not The Lucas Film Collective. Enjoy the movies...or don't. But if you don't, then maybe it is time to stop complaining and start a Matrix Fan Boy site or something. Sheesh! Sorry if I sound *****y, but I have been reading and rereading all the criticism heaped on the new trilogy and finally am like "WE'RE GETTING NEW MOVIES!!!!!!!" I for one can sit through Jar Jar or Padme and Anakin's awkward silences to watch Maul and Obi-Wan or Yoda fight, or watch the best battle sequence since Hoth take place in a galaxy far far away. If I remember correctly, the OT wasn't exactly written by Tolstoy, now was it. It's STAR WARS for cripes sake! not Dotseyevsky (however you spell it) I just wish that instead of picking apart minutae people would focus on the good!!!! Sorry, end of rant

RooJay
05-23-2002, 10:27 PM
WOW! Focusing on the good? Now there's a novel concept!

stillakid
05-24-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by skyywalkerr
Remember the days before the internet when you could just enjoy a movie and not have to dwell on every little miniscule thing that was wrong with it, then see those words go to thousands if not millions of people? As a person who has worked as an employee and the boss, I can say that if I have someone who works for me...that I am paying out of my own pocket...then chances are, yeah, I am gonna have the last word. Does that make me evil and narcissistic? No, it makes me the boss. Since when were these movies made by McCaigfilm Ltd.? or Biggarfilm Ltd? I thought when I watched them the last time they said Lucasfilm Ltd. Not The Lucas Film Collective. Enjoy the movies...or don't. But if you don't, then maybe it is time to stop complaining and start a Matrix Fan Boy site or something. Sheesh! Sorry if I sound *****y, but I have been reading and rereading all the criticism heaped on the new trilogy and finally am like "WE'RE GETTING NEW MOVIES!!!!!!!" I for one can sit through Jar Jar or Padme and Anakin's awkward silences to watch Maul and Obi-Wan or Yoda fight, or watch the best battle sequence since Hoth take place in a galaxy far far away. If I remember correctly, the OT wasn't exactly written by Tolstoy, now was it. It's STAR WARS for cripes sake! not Dotseyevsky (however you spell it) I just wish that instead of picking apart minutae people would focus on the good!!!! Sorry, end of rant


Don't be sorry. You're absolutely right! From here on out, no complaints of any kind from anybody. Everything Lucas does is perfect and if you don't think so, then you must not be a true fan. Today will be marked as the day SSG was given over to Praise for the Maker and all the good that He does. He has not been given special dispensation from creating quality work, for His work is the benchmark of perfection by which all other art shall be forever judged! Bow down all you heathens and worship in His name...May the Force Be With You!

RooJay
05-24-2002, 01:27 AM
How "silly". That's not what anyone is implying at all. Most of us know that Star Wars is just a movie and that Lucas is just a man. Neither are perfect. We all KNOW that. I think what my friend was referring to was the extreme negativity that seems to be pervading these forums lately. Everyone seems only interested in talking about what they hate about Star Wars and not what they like. Say what you will about wanting to criticize, but if I'm not mistaken it's what we LIKE about Star Wars that makes us fans.

DarthBrandon
05-24-2002, 03:39 AM
Wow finally somebody has the B****(don't know if you can say it hear) to say what I was feeling all along, good job Skyywalkerr I agree 200% with everything you said in that post. Again good job dude.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
How "silly". That's not what anyone is implying at all. Most of us know that Star Wars is just a movie and that Lucas is just a man. Neither are perfect. We all KNOW that. I think what my friend was referring to was the extreme negativity that seems to be pervading these forums lately. Everyone seems only interested in talking about what they hate about Star Wars and not what they like. Say what you will about wanting to criticize, but if I'm not mistaken it's what we LIKE about Star Wars that makes us fans.


We do talk about what we like about the films. Usually it's coupled with with discussion about what we weren't entirely pleased with either. But there is little point to a "discussion" between 300+ people simply about the things they liked. How long can that last?

Talking about the "problems" or things that aren't entirely clear as far as purpose to the plot or character goes is what happens here. Dissent is what discussion is all about. By expressing our concerns out loud, it is possible that another person might offer up some insight that was hidden from view.

So if criticism is out of bounds for "true fans," then I don't understand what the point of having forums is for, unless we are to just heap endless praise upon everything that we see. Perhaps there is a market for a www.worshipStarWars.com site, but I suspect that it too would eventually drift into "dissent" or just die out.

billfremore
05-24-2002, 12:28 PM
Human beings by nature are negative people and like to dwell on the negative on most things.

If things were never criticized, things would never improve.

I personally have no problem with criticizing all the movies. I've found several faults with all of them it doesn't change my love for the movies and I'll keep watching them until my eyes bleed (not literally, but you get the idea)

What bugs me is people who think petitioning to have a movie's title or director changed. The kind of people who are totally convinced that they could do everything in the Star Wars universe better than Lucas.

To them I say, trying to get Peter Jackson to direct or change "Attack fo the Clones" to "Rise of the Empire" are fun to talk about and sound good in theory but realistically, it's not going to happen.

If you're conviced that your version of Star Wars would be better, then go ahead and make it. so later on when we're all watching it we can tell you what you did wrong and how we'd do it better than you :)

stillakid
05-24-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by billfremore
If you're conviced that your version of Star Wars would be better, then go ahead and make it. so later on when we're all watching it we can tell you what you did wrong and how we'd do it better than you :)


I may be mistaken, but I recall an interview that GL did a long time ago when he was talking about his influences. There was something about how he enjoyed the B-movie serials and the Flash Gordon stuff and wanted to do them better for a new generation. Something to that effect. I'm all for that, and that is what he accomplished in 1977-1983.

What's in question is his commitment to continuing his "mission," because what we're seeing with the prequels is sub-par of what we've come to expect from the Star Wars saga. He's pretty much admitted publicly that he screwed up TPM. AOTC is 300% better than TPM, but it isn't perfect. But I don't recall anybody suggesting that any of the films are perfect or asking that they be remade to get them that way. However, this culture latched onto certain qualities of the OT that it is missing in the prequels. What's in question is why? What's missing exactly? And is there anything "we" can do to influence his decisions to make it "better," just as he set out to do so many years ago?

billfremore
05-24-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

However, this culture latched onto certain qualities of the OT that it is missing in the prequels. What's in question is why? What's missing exactly? And is there anything "we" can do to influence his decisions to make it "better," just as he set out to do so many years ago?

Ok, ok sarcasm noted.
As for how to recapture what was done in the OT...
I think those 3 films were just the right combination of actors, script and direction.

So for the new movies everybody want the same thing...
...only different.

Gee that doesn't sound too hard :rolleyes:

RooJay
05-24-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

Talking about the "problems" or things that aren't entirely clear as far as purpose to the plot or character goes is what happens here. Dissent is what discussion is all about. By expressing our concerns out loud, it is possible that another person might offer up some insight that was hidden from view.

But what good is that if you are unwilling to listen to, and take into account, someone's hidden insight?


So if criticism is out of bounds for "true fans," then I don't understand what the point of having forums is for, unless we are to just heap endless praise upon everything that we see. Perhaps there is a market for a www.worshipStarWars.com site, but I suspect that it too would eventually drift into "dissent" or just die out. [/B]

Nobody said that criticism is out of bounds for "true fans". What we're saying is that a lot of people lately seem to only have negative things to say about Star Wars. It's difficult for some of us to understand how someone can or would consider themselves a fan when all they have is criticism for Star Wars. So let's hear it! What do you like about Star Wars?

stillakid
05-24-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


But what good is that if you are unwilling to listen to, and take into account, someone's hidden insight?

I always consider other input. Sometimes, though, those "arguments" appear to be incomplete, just plain misguided, or outright wrong. At other times, that input, based on more than mere personal preferential opinion, places questions in a new light and a formerly confusing situation becomes clear.



Originally posted by RooJay

Nobody said that criticism is out of bounds for "true fans". What we're saying is that a lot of people lately seem to only have negative things to say about Star Wars. It's difficult for some of us to understand how someone can or would consider themselves a fan when all they have is criticism for Star Wars. So let's hear it! What do you like about Star Wars?

I've always loved the production design. There really hasn't been a ship or character that I have a complaint about. I truly believe that if it weren't for the unique and "used" design utilized in the original film, Star Wars would not have become as popular as it did.

The original ANH was a perfect epic. The characters were extremely well developed, with economy of action and focused dialogue. The humor, especially in ANH and ESB, was funny without being obvious. What I mean by that is that is was written without going for the obvious pun or easy laugh. The situations were "realistic" in the sense that the audience was placed into a complete world, one that was easy to believe in. That was done because of the "realistic" production design and characters who had qualities like you and me. They were very, well, human, with all of our frailities, humor, and heart. We were made to care about what happened to them on an individual level as well as on the galactic scale. We weren't simply watching a group of characters going through the motions in order to churn out information regarding the sweeping turmoil of the storyline. Their personal plights became the story in the midst of something larger than themselves.

Without digressing into "complaining," suffice it to say that the prequels, thus far, aren't living up to their predecessors in quite the same way.

DarthBrandon
05-24-2002, 05:09 PM
Quote:

Posted by stillakid

Without digressing into "complaining," suffice it to say that the prequels, thus far, aren't living up to their predecessors in quite the same way.


Reply:

They never will cause the fans are older and their expectations
are too dam high.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by brandon
Quote:

Posted by stillakid

Without digressing into "complaining," suffice it to say that the prequels, thus far, aren't living up to their predecessors in quite the same way.


Reply:

They never will cause the fans are older and their expectations
are too dam high.

This response is a prime example of the rest of what I said:


Originally posted by stillakid


I always consider other input. Sometimes, though, those "arguments" appear to be incomplete, just plain misguided, or outright wrong. At other times, that input, based on more than mere personal preferential opinion, places questions in a new light and a formerly confusing situation becomes clear.

Your assumption is that my expectations were very LOW when I was a child. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Kids aren't stupid mindless drones willing to watch anything placed in front of them. They know a good story when they see it and an entire generation of children found something redeeming in the Star Wars saga way back when. If it's simplier for you to live your life believing that we were blithering idiots when we were kids and that we are all now overly-critical old fogey's then there is nothing that can be done about it. It will never be the truth, but if it makes you feel better, then have at it. :)

RooJay
05-24-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Kids aren't stupid mindless drones willing to watch anything placed in front of them. They know a good story when they see it ...
I agree with you on that one. However, even though I don't believe kids are as stupid as most adults nowadays seem to think, I have always had a hard time trying to justify the popularity of Pokemon, Digimon, Power Rangers, and their kind. Now I'm getting off topic though.
I'd also like to point out (AGAIN) that I for one have no problem seeing something redeeming in the Star Wars Prequels. LIke most kids I also am not stupid, and know a good story when I see one. While the story in the prequels certainly isn't the best, nor as good as it possibly could've been, it certainly is FAR from being the worst.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

it certainly is FAR from being the worst.


Yes, that dubious honor would go to something like Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn, a complete and total wanna-be ripoff of Star Wars (at least it was until I couldn't bear to watch anymore of it).

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 07:36 PM
Have you ever watched Power Rangers or Pokemon? I don't mean a cursory glance, I mean really WATCHED either of them? While they may be far from perfect, they are not the dreck most adults take them to be. Sometimes Power Rangers is a big waste, but most eps have a lesson (sometimes subtle, sometimes not) - Pokemon is even better at that because their lessons are rarely hammered into the viewer's face, the messages are subtle and creative. Pokemon is an ongoing story, a journey of various characters and I find it interesting that so many (it's not just RooJay) Star Wars fans bash it.

I find it interesting that the most common argument I'm hit with from those who say I'm too negative about SW is that I've lost touch, I'm too much of an adult to appreciate Ep 1 (for example). You're talking to a guy who is defending Power Rangers and Pokemon, a guy who, at the age of 8, was wondering why Vader's lightsaber went through Obi-Wan's lightightsaber beam in ANH or what the point of Yoda's death was. I don't think it's fair to use that "you're not a kid" statement as a blanket excuse for why your opinion of SW is right and someone else's is wrong, especially when you only know that person from their text musings.

As I said in another thread a few minutes ago, SW is a multifaceted fictional universe, we cannot expect every SW fan to have the same viewpoints as we do. If you just see the negative in our comments, perhaps you're not seeing the base context - we love Star Wars, even if we don't love every piece of Star Wars. I find the complaints of some fans being "too negative" to be insulting and more negative than anything else. I can accept a viewpoint without having to agree with it, can't you? Is your take on certain Star Wars issues so fragile that it cannot withstand opposition, contemplation and discussion?

RooJay
05-25-2002, 05:07 PM
Yes I have watched all of those shows, and the movies based on them. PLENTY often enough when I've been bored and had nothing better to do! While I did notice that some of them have a (simple) message to tell, and they are often wonderfully episodic, I failed to see any real intelligence in them.

JediTricks
05-26-2002, 08:19 PM
Ok, I'll buy that, I may not agree with you, but if you've put in the effort of seeing them, then your opinion is valid. By that I mean, very often I'll come across forum posts saying what you said and it turns out later that the author has never spent more than 15 minutes with the subject - after a while, that can get very annoying because they really are just making snap judgements rather than informed ones.

skyywalkerr
05-28-2002, 03:34 PM
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me

stillakid
05-28-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by skyywalkerr
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me


If a person chooses to let a film wash over them and enjoy it for pure escapist entertainment value, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And I don't recall anyone ever insinuating such a thing.

If there is a conflict, it generally arrives when a person of the above description (one who sees movie as entertainment and not something to be picked apart) attempts to defend a film using erroneous information or miscontrued interpretation. In those instances, yes, a person would present themselves to be a "mindless blathering idiot" or at the very least, "under-educated" as to the details involved in someone's critique.


The recent "Dinotopia" discussion is a fantastic example of such an occurance:

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8360&pagenumber=3

So, a person has to decide whether to just enjoy a film for what it is, recognizing that there might be issues that others want to discuss, or he/she should decide to jump into the discussion armed with well conceived opinions and solid arguments and facts to back them up. No one can make another person look foolish if he has prepared himself adequately. :)

RooJay
05-28-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by skyywalkerr
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me

Yes, that does indeed seem to be what WE have decided! You and I should be very ashamed of our lack of insight and intelligence. How dare we even attempt to enjoy the movies that we love so much! If we were real fans we'd only come here to talk about about Star Wars and how much we hate it!

skyywalkerr
05-28-2002, 03:55 PM
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me. :-) I have just decided to stay away from the movie forums here and stick to the just found forums. For the record, my rant was mostly about how it was stated that Lucas doesn't take his designers' ideas into consideration. If that were the case, we'd all have to find something else to enjoy, because there would be no Star Wars. While George Lucas has a vision, he also consults with artists and designers and other directors. This is what is known as collaboration. If I, as an art director, think a design needs work, I will make the corrections to make sure my vision is realized. That was the point of my last post. To remind everyone that it's George Lucas' movie. HE has final cut. I want to let it be known right now that this is not in any way a cut on anyone in here, and I am not going to sarcastically insult anyone for having a viewpoint, as has been done recently. If you have to pick apart a director for his choices, again, I say, don't dwell on it. Dwell on what you like and follow your bliss. May the Force be with you. I'm out. :-)

stillakid
05-28-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by skyywalkerr
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me. :-) I have just decided to stay away from the movie forums here and stick to the just found forums. For the record, my rant was mostly about how it was stated that Lucas doesn't take his designers' ideas into consideration. If that were the case, we'd all have to find something else to enjoy, because there would be no Star Wars. While George Lucas has a vision, he also consults with artists and designers and other directors. This is what is known as collaboration. If I, as an art director, think a design needs work, I will make the corrections to make sure my vision is realized. That was the point of my last post. To remind everyone that it's George Lucas' movie. HE has final cut. I want to let it be known right now that this is not in any way a cut on anyone in here, and I am not going to sarcastically insult anyone for having a viewpoint, as has been done recently. If you have to pick apart a director for his choices, again, I say, don't dwell on it. Dwell on what you like and follow your bliss. May the Force be with you. I'm out. :-)


Before you leave, I'd like to remind you that you insulted yourself and others with your post. I was merely supporting your statement.

The problem is that you want to do two mutually exclusive things:
1) enjoy the movie without delving too deep into it, and
2) discuss the movie's finer points, but only if everyone agrees with you.

Pick one.

If what I posted came across as unprovoked, then look back at your own words and the way others of us were painted as being "insulting." If I'm wrong on an issue, I'll admit it. If someone else is wrong, I'll call them on it. If they don't want to discuss anything anyway but are just looking for validation for their own beliefs, perhaps this isn't the place to be anyway. Regardless of where or on what topic, if a person has a viewpoint in opposition to someone else's, it is generally helpful to have ample support for the argument. If asking for said proof is "insulting," then there is no point in anybody ever discussing anything if they're just going to run away and pout.

skyywalkerr
05-28-2002, 08:20 PM
I came back to check if my post had been recieved because i have been having computer problems all day, and saw that my good buddy stillakid had to reply. Which in and of itself is not surprising, because I know the type. The kinda guy who can never be wrong and always has to have the last word. Who sees only what he wants and is the only person on God's green earth who can be sarcastic and condescending. For the record, I have enough negativity in my life, I don't need to extend it to a hobby I enjoy very much. Perhaps you should re-examine your motives for posting stillakid. Is it because you love Star Wars and like to have a debate about it? Or could it be that you have no life and are so unfulfilled that you have to lord your superiority complex over others? Something tells me you have Adam from Yakface syndrome...which amounts to the latter reason. Good luck guys. Please, stillakid, make sure you get the last word, either here or on Moviepoopchute.com. :)

RooJay
05-28-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

Before you leave, I'd like to remind you that you insulted yourself and others with your post. I was merely supporting your statement.

The problem is that you want to do two mutually exclusive things:
1) enjoy the movie without delving too deep into it, and
2) discuss the movie's finer points, but only if everyone agrees with you.

Pick one.

If what I posted came across as unprovoked, then look back at your own words and the way others of us were painted as being "insulting." If I'm wrong on an issue, I'll admit it. If someone else is wrong, I'll call them on it. If they don't want to discuss anything anyway but are just looking for validation for their own beliefs, perhaps this isn't the place to be anyway. Regardless of where or on what topic, if a person has a viewpoint in opposition to someone else's, it is generally helpful to have ample support for the argument. If asking for said proof is "insulting," then there is no point in anybody ever discussing anything if they're just going to run away and pout.

I was in agreement with skyywalkerr's sarcasm. I still am. I know that I for one neither want to "enjoy the movie[s] without delving too deep into [them]" nor "discuss the movie's finer points, but only if everyone agrees with [me]". I tend to delve quite deeply into the movies and take them for what they are and what they are worth to me, and I enjoy discussing ALL of the movie's points be they finer or poorer, though I prefer to focus on what it is about the movies that makes me happy. :happy: All of that in spite of the assumption by some that I don't know what I'm talking about as well as the assumpton that I think everyone must think exactly as I do. I also NEVER jump into an argument without more than ample proof to support my views.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by skyywalkerr
I came back to check if my post had been recieved because i have been having computer problems all day, and saw that my good buddy stillakid had to reply. Which in and of itself is not surprising, because I know the type. The kinda guy who can never be wrong and always has to have the last word. Who sees only what he wants and is the only person on God's green earth who can be sarcastic and condescending. For the record, I have enough negativity in my life, I don't need to extend it to a hobby I enjoy very much. Perhaps you should re-examine your motives for posting stillakid. Is it because you love Star Wars and like to have a debate about it? Or could it be that you have no life and are so unfulfilled that you have to lord your superiority complex over others? Something tells me you have Adam from Yakface syndrome...which amounts to the latter reason. Good luck guys. Please, stillakid, make sure you get the last word, either here or on Moviepoopchute.com. :)


I will get the last word in here because the accusation that I am unfair is itself unfounded. I listen and evaluate any and all viewpoints when provided with adequate and sound backing. You can be as self-righteous as you'd like, but it won't change the fact that you took the steps to take this from a discussion of the topic into a "personal" matter. I am neither the authority, nor ever claimed to be. I vehemently defend my positions when necessary, but I see no crime in that. I am wrong on occasion just like the rest of the world. But when I'm right, I know it. If I didn't believe it, I'd be asking questions...not stating opinions. So come on down off that high-horse and join the rest of us in discussions of topics and stop looking only for others that agree with what you have to say. This is a hobby and a fun one. I didn't make you hate coming to the forums. You just didn't want to hear what I had to say because I didn't agree with you. That's not my fault. :)

And Roojay, JT laid down some very convincing arguments that were in opposition to yours, yet it took you quite some time to respond with "facts" of your own. You took up a position without providing your own background of information. That's where that discussion fell apart. If you guys have something to say, by all means, say it without insulting us by suggesting that we think you're all a bunch of boneheads. I've never told anyone that I'm right and their wrong without providing "proof" of my case. And I certainly wouldn't suggest that they are an idiot if they were kind enough to back up their own statements with the same.


If you're interested in focusing on the stuff in the movies that makes you happy. then why jump into a discussion in which other people disagree with you in the first place? I don't understand that? Are you trying to convince us that we're wrong? Will that make you happier? I was accused of trying to make you guys hate the movies. You're trying to make me love them unconditionally. What's the difference?:confused:

JediTricks
05-28-2002, 10:24 PM
Hmm, I keep forgetting I'm the only moderator in this section, I was expecting Jargo to step in and warn everybody to stop the personalizing before I realized he turned in his moderatorship. I gotta keep reminding myself of that...

I have closed this thread to let people cool off but will reopen it tomorrow

Ok, nobody will get the "last word" but me since I'm the moderator (and I don't want the last word, as is apparent by my dropping out of this conversation some time ago), I don't care what side of this discussion you're on, if you continue to turn this into a personal attacks thread from this point on, your comment will be deleted. That leaves a LOT of ground to discuss though, the issue at hand here is about George Lucas and whether we hate him or not, not about stillakid and RooJay and skyywalkerr duking it out. Personality conflicts should be kept to the PM system, there's nothing to be gained from this stuff. Here are the rules:

- You attack another forumite in this thread again, I'll delete that post;
- You do it twice, I'll purge ALL your posts from the thread;
- 3 times or more and I'll suspend you from the forums for 24 hours.

Seriously, I think we can all discuss this issue in a civil manner, but if you disagree, then leave now because you'll only hurt your posting abilities and I really don't want to see that.

RooJay
05-29-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I will get the last word in here because the accusation that I am unfair is itself unfounded. I listen and evaluate any and all viewpoints when provided with adequate and sound backing. You can be as self-righteous as you'd like, but it won't change the fact that you took the steps to take this from a discussion of the topic into a "personal" matter. I am neither the authority, nor ever claimed to be. I vehemently defend my positions when necessary, but I see no crime in that. I am wrong on occasion just like the rest of the world. But when I'm right, I know it. If I didn't believe it, I'd be asking questions...not stating opinions. So come on down off that high-horse and join the rest of us in discussions of topics and stop looking only for others that agree with what you have to say. This is a hobby and a fun one. I didn't make you hate coming to the forums. You just didn't want to hear what I had to say because I didn't agree with you. That's not my fault. :)

What "proof" do you have that you are right? I have "proof" that states otherwise. That sounds like a very arrogant stance to me. I'm sorry, that's just the way that I feel. "...when I'm right, I know it"? So do I. What makes you more right than any of us. You may not have made your agument personal in words, but your demeanor certainly implied that you truly believe or arguments, views, and intelligence to be inferior. You may argue that this is not so, but how you are "perceived" by others accounts for a lot in peoples impression of you. Reading back on your posts causes me to perceive that you have taken numerous personal shots at myself and others who view the subject as I do.


And Roojay, JT laid down some very convincing arguments that were in opposition to yours, yet it took you quite some time to respond with "facts" of your own. You took up a position without providing your own background of information. That's where that discussion fell apart. If you guys have something to say, by all means, say it without insulting us by suggesting that we think you're all a bunch of boneheads. I've never told anyone that I'm right and their wrong without providing "proof" of my case. And I certainly wouldn't suggest that they are an idiot if they were kind enough to back up their own statements with the same.

Why should I have had to come into this discussion with a flurry of "facts" and "evidence". I joined this discussion stating my personal views on the matter. I did not come here for vilification or to force others to believe as I do. My proof was mine and I only found it necessary to bring any of it up in support of my argument which I at that point felt was being ridiculed. The only reason anyone here joined this argument with a post noting any kind of proof was in an attempt to disprove the views of another. Quite simply, I didn't feel the need to cite my "proof" outright because I already knew my views to be sound and didn't find it necessary until my personal beliefs began to be attacked.


If you're interested in focusing on the stuff in the movies that makes you happy. then why jump into a discussion in which other people disagree with you in the first place? I don't understand that? Are you trying to convince us that we're wrong? Will that make you happier? I was accused of trying to make you guys hate the movies. You're trying to make me love them unconditionally. What's the difference?:confused:

Surely someone of your intelligence can see that this thread (and it's title) was meant as sarcasm. This thread was started by someone who actually, more or less, supports my views. The title was intended as sarcasm aimed at the jaded cynicism that seems to be pervading the Star Wars fanbase at the moment. Why would YOU jump into a discussion in which others disagree with you? I am simply here to present and support my views.

stillakid
05-29-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


What "proof" do you have that you are right? I have "proof" that states otherwise. That sounds like a very arrogant stance to me. I'm sorry, that's just the way that I feel. "...when I'm right, I know it"? So do I. What makes you more right than any of us. You may not have made your agument personal in words, but your demeanor certainly implied that you truly believe or arguments, views, and intelligence to be inferior. You may argue that this is not so, but how you are "perceived" by others accounts for a lot in peoples impression of you. Reading back on your posts causes me to perceive that you have taken numerous personal shots at myself and others who view the subject as I do.



Why should I have had to come into this discussion with a flurry of "facts" and "evidence". I joined this discussion stating my personal views on the matter. I did not come here for vilification or to force others to believe as I do. My proof was mine and I only found it necessary to bring any of it up in support of my argument which I at that point felt was being ridiculed. The only reason anyone here joined this argument with a post noting any kind of proof was in an attempt to disprove the views of another. Quite simply, I didn't feel the need to cite my "proof" outright because I already knew my views to be sound and didn't find it necessary until my personal beliefs began to be attacked.



Surely someone of your intelligence can see that this thread (and it's title) was meant as sarcasm. This thread was started by someone who actually, more or less, supports my views. The title was intended as sarcasm aimed at the jaded cynicism that seems to be pervading the Star Wars fanbase at the moment. Why would YOU jump into a discussion in which others disagree with you? I am simply here to present and support my views.

Are you still talking about that? :)

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
What "proof" do you have that you are right? I have "proof" that states otherwise. That sounds like a very arrogant stance to me. I'm sorry, that's just the way that I feel. "...when I'm right, I know it"? So do I. What makes you more right than any of us. You may not have made your agument personal in words, but your demeanor certainly implied that you truly believe or arguments, views, and intelligence to be inferior. You may argue that this is not so, but how you are "perceived" by others accounts for a lot in peoples impression of you. Reading back on your posts causes me to perceive that you have taken numerous personal shots at myself and others who view the subject as I do.
- What the heck? I said no more personal stuff, come ON! Just stop, I really don't want to delete posts but I did just warn everybody in here about this (and then closed the thread for several hours, no less) so the next one that comes up gets the boot AND this one above gets it too!


Surely someone of your intelligence can see that this thread (and it's title) was meant as sarcasm. This thread was started by someone who actually, more or less, supports my views. The title was intended as sarcasm aimed at the jaded cynicism that seems to be pervading the Star Wars fanbase at the moment. Why would YOU jump into a discussion in which others disagree with you? I am simply here to present and support my views.
- I can't speak for Stilla, but ever since this thread first started, I never once thought the author was being sarcastic - BountyHunter seems quite genuine that he feels that nearly everybody has turned against Lucas - I don't see the sarcasm. I can't speak to whether BH supports your viewpoints on this issue, but I think my first post here explains why I posted in here just fine. I don't hate Lucas, I just don't like what he's turned into or what he's doing to Star Wars. There's a big difference.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks


- I can't speak for Stilla, but ever since this thread first started, I never once thought the author was being sarcastic - BountyHunter seems quite genuine that he feels that nearly everybody has turned against Lucas - I don't see the sarcasm. I can't speak to whether BH supports your viewpoints on this issue, but I think my first post here explains why I posted in here just fine. I don't hate Lucas, I just don't like what he's turned into or what he's doing to Star Wars. There's a big difference.

I couldn't agree more. I read no sarcasm in the title of the thread either and continued from there.

RooJay
05-30-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks

- What the heck? I said no more personal stuff, come ON! Just stop, I really don't want to delete posts but I did just warn everybody in here about this (and then closed the thread for several hours, no less) so the next one that comes up gets the boot AND this one above gets it too!

What part of that post did you see as a personnal attack?! What the heck indeed! Am I not even allowed to answer to posts directed against me? Not that I feel it pertains at all to my last post, but I didn't even see your warning when I posted! My last post was in NO WAY an attack. It is a pure statement on my feelings. It's all about CONTEXT my friend. I think we've both seen enough in the past to prove that.
All of this begs another question that I've posted before; why does it seem that often the moderators in these forums seem to be anything but MODERATE? It seems to me that OVERSEER would be a more appropriate title. Why does it seem that so often you are allowed to say anything you'd like in these forums as long as your views and positions are in accordance with the moderators? Just because you don't agree with something does not make it any less true. I love this site AND these forums, but I don't appreciate the feeling I've often had that I'm being ganged up on by those who don't agree with me INCLUDING the 'moderators". I have disrespected no other forum users rights any more than it can be said mine have been disrespected.


- I can't speak for Stilla, but ever since this thread first started, I never once thought the author was being sarcastic - BountyHunter seems quite genuine that he feels that nearly everybody has turned against Lucas - I don't see the sarcasm. I can't speak to whether BH supports your viewpoints on this issue, but I think my first post here explains why I posted in here just fine. I don't hate Lucas, I just don't like what he's turned into or what he's doing to Star Wars. There's a big difference.

So we disagree on yet another subject. Remember, just because you didn't see any sarcasm doesn't mean someone else shouldn't. As even Stillakid has pointed out on numerous occasions, divergent viewpoints are what make keep this interesting. Even viewpoints you don't agree with, and regardless of your status as a "moderator". This is beside the point anyway.

My opinions have every right to be heard.

JediTricks
05-31-2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
What part of that post did you see as a personnal attack?! What the heck indeed! Am I not even allowed to answer to posts directed against me? Not that I feel it pertains at all to my last post, but I didn't even see your warning when I posted! My last post was in NO WAY an attack. It is a pure statement on my feelings. It's all about CONTEXT my friend. I think we've both seen enough in the past to prove that.
Did I delete your comments? NO. Did I say you posted a personal "attack"? NO. But I warned everybody before that besides attacks, I also said no more personality conflicts and believe me, when you have the words "you" and "your" crop up in the same paragraph a dozen times, that's a conflict of the personal kind between you and the person you're referring to, and it should be kept off the forums - period. Discuss the point at hand, not other the people discussing it.


All of this begs another question that I've posted before; why does it seem that often the moderators in these forums seem to be anything but MODERATE? It seems to me that OVERSEER would be a more appropriate title. Why does it seem that so often you are allowed to say anything you'd like in these forums as long as your views and positions are in accordance with the moderators? Just because you don't agree with something does not make it any less true. I love this site AND these forums, but I don't appreciate the feeling I've often had that I'm being ganged up on by those who don't agree with me INCLUDING the 'moderators". I have disrespected no other forum users rights any more than it can be said mine have been disrespected.Because we're not mindless automotons, we're allowed to have opinions and still be able to do our moderating duties. We're not here in a judicial capacity to decide who gets the kids and who gets the house, we're here to keep the forums running as smoothly as possible so they can CONTINUE to run. If you think a moderator is not doing his job properly, feel free to email/PM me (in my capacity as "super moderator") or SirSteve with a complaint. However, I haven't seen a lot of what you're complaining about, I see moderators who state their opinions as posters and then do their jobs no matter what their feelings are on an issue.

If you feel "ganged up on" by other forumites, maybe it's because several people don't agree with you, but if you're accusing anybody on the SSG staff of vendetta posting against you, I'd be REALLY surprised to see convincing evidence of such. Remember, these are words - text on a computer display - you are the one interpretting them.

I can't think of one instance where someone's viewpoint was supressed by a moderator, everybody is free to say what they feel so long as it falls within the guidelines of being an "all-ages" statement, non-post padding, and not a bickering fight between people over personality issues. If I was to do what you claim, the thread about racism in SW would be gone, your post above would be gone, "musical bouka" would be gone, "Is this really SirSteve?" would be gone. But they're not, and you're welcome to post in any of them about anything you feel related to those threads.



So we disagree on yet another subject. Remember, just because you didn't see any sarcasm doesn't mean someone else shouldn't. As even Stillakid has pointed out on numerous occasions, divergent viewpoints are what make keep this interesting. Even viewpoints you don't agree with, and regardless of your status as a "moderator". This is beside the point anyway.

My opinions have every right to be heard.
Please, please, PLEASE tell me where in that statement of mine you're quoting is it that I state that MY opinion is fact and yours have no validity; where I mention that your opinion has no right to be heard on this issue. I'm begging you to prove your point on that one, find the part in this statement you picked out where I am stifling your opinion -

"I can't speak for Stilla, but ever since this thread first started, I never once thought the author was being sarcastic - BountyHunter seems quite genuine that he feels that nearly everybody has turned against Lucas - I don't see the sarcasm. I can't speak to whether BH supports your viewpoints on this issue, but I think my first post here explains why I posted in here just fine. I don't hate Lucas, I just don't like what he's turned into or what he's doing to Star Wars. There's a big difference.".

You accuse me of such a heinous act using that statement as an example, but unless you're taking my words WAY out of their context, I do not see what you are talking about. You are saying you believe one thing, I am saying I believe another thing - nowhere in there have I said anything about your right to believe what you believe. Why should you get the right to state your belief and not me? I said I thought the author seemed genuine about the title and I didn't see it as sarcasm, I stated that I felt my first post in this thread explained why I posted here, and finally I reiterated the opinion from my first post in here -- so where in that am I saying your opinions are invalid and have no right to be heard? Let me paraphrase you to explain what I'm talking about: "just because you see sarcasm doesn't mean someone else should". Is there no room for MY opinion simply because it doesn't conform to yours? Is my personal opinion somehow less allowable than yours simply because I'm a moderator?

stillakid
05-31-2002, 12:23 AM
If there was a personal attack of any kind during this unfortunate episode, it happened right here, at the beginning:


Originally posted by skyywalkerr
Okay, so we have established that the people who see the movies as entertainment and not something to be picked apart frame by frame are mindless blathering idiots. Sorry Roo-Jay, that means you and me


Without cause, skyywalkerr backhandedly called "us" insulting to people like himself. Perhaps he interpreted that based on previous posts, but no one ever typed words to that effect as far as I can tell. Others disagreeing with him is not justification for such an assumption much less posting such a statement. I should have let it go, as I don't get worked up about much, but when I am falsely accused of something, I'm going to speak up and defend myself. If there are specific posts in which someone accused skyywalkerr of being a "mindless blathering idiot" prior to his accusatory statement, then he has a case to make.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
We're not here in a judicial capacity to decide who gets the kids and who gets the house,

Well, even if you were . . . as long as I get the Crown Royal I'm alright. :happy:

I didn't take Bounty Hunter's (look what you've started BH! :D) post as sarcasm, it seemed like his genuine complaint. Well, the end may appear a bit sarcastic . . .

Look, take all of this with a grain of salt. Things can get feisty from time to time ("you wouldn't want my life to get boring, would you?") but in the end this is about having fun. A hobby. Look at myself in comparison to stillakid & JediTricks. I love AOTC while they both have serious reservations with the film (not to mention TPM ;) ) but I've swapped differing thoughts and opinions on the topics . . . we haven't fought yet. :D

*pointing finger at stillakid* now go explain your "Anakin bipolar" comment. :p

stillakid
05-31-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Caesar



*pointing finger at stillakid* now go explain your "Anakin bipolar" comment. :p

;)
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=88438#post88438

El Chuxter
12-01-2009, 04:21 PM
It's not so much hatred as it is pity.

2-1B
12-01-2009, 08:39 PM
Well that's an improvement. :thumbsup:

TheDarthVader
12-11-2009, 01:31 PM
El Chuxter never surprises me with his headstrong pessimism. :) We need a guy like that on this forum.

elvandrik
12-11-2009, 05:10 PM
Arial Orange
It seems like everybody hates George, since Episode I. People making petitions for Peter Jackson to direct episode III, and people are always complaing about him being a bad director. I totally disagree with this, I think that fans need to realize that they are expecting too much from this story. After all, George had the idea for Star Wars in the first place, its good enough he can bring us a saga so great. I understand that episode I was dissapointing, but some fans have been over reacting. Think of all the great scenes in TPM, the podrace, lightsaber fight, etc. Now I am nots saying TPM was my favorite movie in the saga so far, but it wasn't just plain horrible. And the main reason that fans consider it such a bad movie is probably because we were expecting so much from the movie, so right away we have noticed all of the horrible scenes, although I do admit that the darht maul deat was lame, jar jar is lame, and so is jake Lloyd. I just think that all star wars fans need to realize that George Lucas is a great director, and that this is his movie that he made for himself, he doesn't give a rats *** what you think of it.

Here's the thing about lucas; he was definitely an unrivaled innovator who changed film forever with his contributions. That's the plus side of the equation.

The down side is that since his initial innovation many others in the industry have built upon his work (and the work of unnamed others) and raised the bar. This continuing innovation by others unfortunately makes Lucas' weaknesses more obvious; he can't write a script to save his own life. None of this I blame on Lucas.

What I do blame on Lucas is when he surrounds himself with toadies and talentless sycophants like Rick McCallum who for whatever reason seem timid to tell Lucas when something he does is flawed or needs more work. Seriously, just watch AOTC once and tell me that you were happy with how that movie came out or all the strange loose ends that are never explained (i.e Sypho Dias). That's what happens when the creative process is dominated by George and no one in the room has the cajones to tell him that something he has done is less than perfect.

Dont get me wrong, I respect George and what he has contributed to the art of storytelling through film, but not so much that I can't see his shortcomings too.

elvandrik
12-11-2009, 05:16 PM
Stillakid, you complete me!

As a fellow old skool "hater", I salute your intelligent yet passionate critical assessment. Hats off to you for keepin it real.:thumbsup: