PDA

View Full Version : EPII - too much Computer Effect?



humsup
03-18-2002, 03:13 AM
I have just downloaded the latest trailer and to be frank, am quite sad to see that SW has lost the touch of old. I think there is too much emphasis in using computer graphics, the show looks unrealistic.
Maybe that is why old timers like myself cannot really relate the Starwars of old to the current prequel. Any of you have the same feel?
Gone are the days where you have to make a Death Star prop and AT-ATs models for filming...

Obi-Don
03-18-2002, 03:42 AM
I'm afraid that we are loosing that touch of realisom. I believe before to long computer movies"as I call Them" will be the norm. Even though I do like the look but you can't help but feel that it is less real. It is sad in away.

LTBasker
03-18-2002, 04:01 AM
This is one reason why I wouldn't want Lucas to do episodes 7-9, it wouldn't be the same as if he had done them right after the OT.

I don't really like all off the green/blue screen stuff, too much is CGI lately, personally I liked the OT's model & real gun props. It gave it more to "connect" to I guess, because everything seemed more real, if they wanted a hangar bay full of ships, they made the ships, if they wanted them to fly, they'd use models, but now.. if they want all that, they leave it to a computer to decipher it all... :(

Fulit
03-18-2002, 08:39 AM
I'm with you, I thought the same thing when I saw the trailer, "It looks like a frickin cartoon".

Nothing, though, IMO, is worse than those soulless CGI cartoons Hollywood keeps churning out. Jimmy Neutron, Ice Age, etc. Are we ever again gonna see anything drawn with a pen, the old fashioned way? <<sigh>> My age is showing..

Rollo Tomassi
03-18-2002, 09:01 AM
Is 100% digital effects, "too much"? It certainly can't be labeled as "not enough".:rolleyes:

JEDIpartner
03-18-2002, 10:53 AM
It seems like the actors and the REAL props are now the foreign elements in the films. There doesn't seem to be that wonderful "tangible" quality to the objects. Everything looks like piece of artwork come to life. It's bizarre. Like I said in a previous thread, there is a loss of visual continuity to the series. We have another asteroid belt, but it looks completely different compared to the one in ESB. Different textures and lighting and whatnot. Oh, well.

chewie
03-18-2002, 11:12 AM
Lucas apparently wanted the cg unrealness effect to take place in the prequels. Which is why he waited so long in making them, right?

pthfnder89
03-18-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Is 100% digital effects, "too much"? It certainly can't be labeled as "not enough".:rolleyes:


Actually, they still do really use a lot of models and traditional visual efects techniques. It's just that those are usually lost in the flood of CGI around them.

For instance, the very first shots of TPM look so great to me, because they look almost identical to the OT space shots. The Republic Transport by itself, just one model and a huge starfield behind it. But of course they blow that up and most of the other spaceship shots are either totally CGI, or CGI "enhanced" so you lose that real feeling.:(

Casual George
03-18-2002, 01:24 PM
I don't feel that old but I was around to see the first three films in there original theatrical run. George pushed the envelope so hard on those films that most everyone in the film industry thought he was crazy and wasting his time. By the time the rest of the industry had caught up George and ILM were on to the next level. I do understand where you guys are coming from but I like the scope of things in these prequels. George has said that these first three have a wide, sweeping scope and the last three are focused on mainly Luke's narrow view of the galaxy. I like models and matte paintings as much as anyone but I think the computer generate stuff looks great as well. Sure it has a different "feel" than some of the older methods but it's still created by artists who have a passion for what they create. I guess it's a matter of personal taste. For those of us that grew up with original Star Wars films, I think they will always occupy a special place in our hearts and minds that the new trilogy can't fully become a part of.

bigbarada
03-18-2002, 01:55 PM
Technology is always moving forward and movie audiences crave something new. Sure the PT will vastly overshadow the OT in terms of visual effects; but we all knew that was going to happen considering the movies are made over twenty years later. Could you imagine how disappointed audiences would be if Ep1 had used nothing but optical compositing and floppy rubber masks? Along with presenting a compelling neo-mythic story, the Star Wars films have always pushed the boundaries of technology in visual effects. If you truly believed that GL would make a visually substandard film just to mesh better with the OT then you were seriously fooling yourself.

mark2d2
03-18-2002, 02:01 PM
The irony of it though -- is the floppy rubber masks actually looked a whole lot better. Seriously -- compare Greedo talking to Watto talking. I'm sorry, but there is no comparison. Watto looks FAKE FAKE FAKE. Painfully obvious. There is nothing organic or "living" about his movements.

I'm always glad to sound off on this issue. Because the last time I mentioned that everything in the new trailer looks "FAKE", I was bombarded with people going "Duh! Hello! Yoda isn't real!" "Lucas says that his movies aren't "Real" anyway so shut up."

Ugh.

Anyway, yes. There is WAYYYYYYYY too much CGI. And, yeah, it looks like crap. The Star Wars Universe looks less real than it did 25 years ago. Hardly what I would call progess. And as far as showing things on this epic scale? Who cares if it looks like Poo Doo?! Besides, the more Lucas shows, somehow the less there is too car about. Look at the Final Battle in TPM. Did anyone really care about anything in the GUNGUN or ANAKIN SAVES THE DAY BY ACCIDENT portions? I sure didn't. They were bloated and overblown. The other Naboo pilots were merely extras with lines. I had no sense of who these people were. A 180 from the very personable slaughtered rebels in ANH's finale.

I predict the Arena Sequence will be more of the same. Too many people dying too many death all too fast for anyone to care.

Jargo
03-18-2002, 06:14 PM
I personally think the problem lies with the digital cameras. We just aren't very used to seeing movies made using only digital cameras yet. Sure they mixed the cameras in TPM but a whole movie?
It's still new technology and George is pretty much alone in his use of it. But I think it was unwise to Use star wars as the vehicle to road test this technology. The OT has survived this long and been seen by so many as it was originally that it obviously cuts the mustard on quality. To pander to an audience demanding visual effects shows rather than a good story and fine acting or at least so-so acting is just dumb IMO.
If I was making a totally digital movie I wouldn't do it with a series of movies that marked the pinnacle of my career, I'd test it out on something that was small, not really worth speaking about. I'd test all the technologies to perfect them and stop them looking cartoony.

I certainly wouldn't have messed with star wars......

JonoFett
03-18-2002, 06:52 PM
Look at how organic the feel was in The Fellowship of the Ring. The CGI shots blended beautifully with the real elements, in the correct proportions. CGI components shouldn't be overdone, but just added in a complementary way. Sure we need dramatic sequences, but not at the expense of everything else. It should be greatly apparent, but not so in your face that you're asphyxiating from a deficiency of what is truly real

mark2d2
03-18-2002, 09:17 PM
Jonofett speaks the truth.

I was blown away by LORD OF THE RINGS. And I am by no means a Tolkien fan, the books just aren't my cup of tea. But I was bowled over by this film when I saw it. It was nothing short of spectacular. And so well acted, too. Which is worth pointing out because supposedly much of the film was shot against green screen. And the hobbits were filmed seperately from the humans as well.

Sadly, LOTR is everything I thought the new star wars films would be. And you know why -- it's because everything looked REAL.

JonoFett
03-18-2002, 09:53 PM
My sentiments EXACTLY, Mark:)

LTBasker
03-19-2002, 04:27 AM
The thing about the OT is that back then, is nothing matched these special effects, instead of just looking like a model with a flare for a jet engine on some strings and "flying" against a big space mat, these ships actually looked real! Try comparing the Falcon being chased by TIEs in the asteroid field scene with anything else from that same year, or even decade. The about it was that it felt real, even though it's sci-fi, it was like you were really there and there wasn't stuff just there in the film for a dazzling special effect like a heavily chromed ship just to attract the audience. That's the thing, filling SW with pure CGI is taking away from the OT and at points it just makes it feel like another movie filled with CGI to amaze the audience that just seems to be put in because it wouldn't of been possible with the OT and so it's being taken advantage of.

humsup
03-19-2002, 06:21 AM
Theres no denying that CGI is already a mainstay in most if not all of the current movies. But there is simply too much of it used in AOTC... at least thats what the current trailer tells me.
Maybe I'm being old fashion but some of you have mentioned here, the OT will always have a special place in my heart as that's what I like to see in a movie - real props, and real battle scenes ie the battle of Endor or the battle of Hoth.

pthfnder89
03-19-2002, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
The irony of it though -- is the floppy rubber masks actually looked a whole lot better. Seriously -- compare Greedo talking to Watto talking. I'm sorry, but there is no comparison. Watto looks FAKE FAKE FAKE. Painfully obvious. There is nothing organic or "living" about his movements.


I really have to disagree with that one Mark. I thought that lots of the CGI in TPM was obvious, but Watto was the one standout to me. I loved the expressions the artists gave him, and I think a lot of work went into making him look real and it paid off in my opinion.

I kept thinking about how JarJar was included because Lucas wanted to to create the first totally CGI main character, and every time I see TPM, I wonder why they couldn't have done a great character like Watto instead of JarJar, who to me always looks painfully fake.:(

I really admired what they did with Watto in TPM and I hope they can reproduce that with other AOTC CGI characters like Dex Jettser.

mark2d2
03-19-2002, 01:59 PM
Watto would have been amazing in A BUGS LIFE. I dunno. Watto just never looked "there" to me. And picking on JarJar at this point is beating such a dead horse.

Then again -- I may be unduly hostile to this character because it was such a LAME plotpoint. Did anyone else have trouble buying that Watto was really the only guy on the planet that sold hyperdrives? That just got under my skin to no end. When Watto first said that, I thought it was funny. A good joke. Salesmen always act like they're your only hope for something. But then to have it supposed to actually be true!!! I just could not believe it. It was so ridiculous.

Jedi Clint
03-19-2002, 02:11 PM
Too much computer effect?

Nah, looks fine to me.

JetsAndHeels
03-19-2002, 02:34 PM
Mark2d2, Watto was probably not the only one on Tattooine selling hyperdrives, but if Qui Gon had gone to any other dealer would they have met Anakin? Very doubtful.
Everything that happened in TPM sets off the chain of events that moves the saga along. Qui Gon discovers Anakin, then Anakin is set free from being a slave, Qui Gon dies in battle, and Obi Wan takes Anakin as his padawan.
It all falls into place.

mark2d2
03-19-2002, 05:37 PM
Just because something sets off a chain of events, doesn't make it plausable. It's a gapping hole in logic that makes the film feel weak and hollow. In fact it makes the whole pod race unnecessary --- which frankly, it was. I'm sorry, but compared to the other three films, it's just very poor plotted. And very weak story telling.

I still don't get it! Why not go to another Dealer after leaving Watto? Is Qui Gon supposed to be that stupid? No. Sorry. It just doesn't work.

Jedi Clint
03-19-2002, 05:57 PM
:frus: Why must every discussion turn into another gripe session about TPM?

Didn't Watto mention that they wouldn't find another drive to fit their ship on Tatooine? I can believe that. How many times do parts for "Nubian" ships end up on that dust ball world? Perhaps they did try other junk dealers. Do we know that they did not? Another stipulation to obtaining a hyperdrive for their ship was their lack of assests with which they could negotiate a trade. Republic credits were not worth much (if anything) on the outer rim. Tell me again why the pod race was unnecessary.

mark2d2
03-19-2002, 06:21 PM
Sorry we're getting off the subject here. But all I'm saying is that the whole Tattoine sequence was constructed in a way that felt very artificial to me. It was all designed in such a way that -- okay -- the pod race was indeed necessary. But the mechanics that caused this felt very contrived and manufactured.

All I'm saying is that had I been a Jedi I'd either A) Found another Dealer. B) Found a Currency exchanger or C) Used the Jedi Mind trick on someone else to covert the Republic credits. I'd have had a hyperdrive so fast Qui Gon's head would have spun around faster than Linda Blair's.

These kind of "Holes" simply don't exist in the OT.

This does get back to the Too Much Computer effect as I thought many of the podracers looked lame and cartoonish in the extreme. The landscape and most of the pod footage looked just great -- on the other hand. But the whole thing was just so utterly forced upon the plot. The speeder bike chase in ROTJ was much more genuinely involved in the story. And didn't require such an elaborately artificial setup.

pthfnder89
03-20-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
Sorry we're getting off the subject here. But all I'm saying is that the whole Tattoine sequence was constructed in a way that felt very artificial to me. It was all designed in such a way that -- okay -- the pod race was indeed necessary. But the mechanics that caused this felt very contrived and manufactured.

All I'm saying is that had I been a Jedi I'd either A) Found another Dealer. B) Found a Currency exchanger or C) Used the Jedi Mind trick on someone else to covert the Republic credits. I'd have had a hyperdrive so fast Qui Gon's head would have spun around faster than Linda Blair's.

These kind of "Holes" simply don't exist in the OT.


I agree with you Mark2d2 that the whole Tattoine storyline in TPM felt forced in. And it felt like it was a big distraction from what was supposed to be the main story of the Naboo invasion.

But most movies have some sort of holes in them to make the story flow well or to introduce a certain character, including the OT.

Such as how Bespins Main Computer just happened to tell R2 that the Falcons Hyperdrive was sabotaged or the AT-ATs were able to land on Hoth even though there was supposed to be an incredibley powerful shield there?

There are plenty of possible explinations for both of these, but the fact is that the reason they occured is because they served the story. Without the AT-ATs the battle of Hoth wouldn't have been as cool. And R2 wouldn't have known how to fix the Falcons hyperdrive.

In TPM, Lucas just didn't do a very good job of hiding these gaps of logic.:D

mark2d2
03-20-2002, 03:22 PM
Still, those holes don't compare to this.

I just always assumed that Artoo Detoo was really fast and he just scanned the entire database for any relevent info about the Falcon. Remember how fast he was with the computer on the Death Star --- so his speed on Bespin is even consistant. I don't think the exchange was like, "Hello, r2. So sorry we deactivated your hyperdrive."

And as far as the shield in TPM Menace we learned that you can walk through the shields, you just can't shoot through them.

Lucas was said that Special effects weren't the important thing. That they were just a tool in telling the story. This was a fanous quote of his and he said it again and again throughout the 80s.

Now, somehow, his view seems to have shifted. The story is not important. It's just a tool to show special effects. This is what depresses me.

pthfnder89
03-20-2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2

"Hello, r2. So sorry we deactivated your hyperdrive."

LOL, I keep hearing that quote in my head with the HAL's voice.
"I'm sorry R2, I can't do that..." :D:D



Originally posted by mark2d2
Lucas was said that Special effects weren't the important thing. That they were just a tool in telling the story. This was a fanous quote of his and he said it again and again throughout the 80s.

Now, somehow, his view seems to have shifted. The story is not important. It's just a tool to show special effects. This is what depresses me.

It's cool you said that, because I've literally been thinking the same thing. I always remember a documentary I have on tape with an interview where George specifically states that the special effects should never be the focus of the movie. That's why the OT movies go by so fast; all of the cool special effects NEVER slow down enough for you to really see them.

In TPM and now AOTC, it seems like he has totally changed his mind. It's really pretty sad.

pthfnder89
03-20-2002, 03:48 PM
:(