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manji
08-27-2001, 09:55 PM
I personally believe this is the lamest plot point GL ever came up with as far as Star Wars is concerned. I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I don't usually read this forum.

My question is simple. Is GL going to leave the extremely vague and ridiculous explanation about the midichlorians (and Anakin's birth) from TPM stand, or will he elaborate in Episode II? How could he bring up something with so much bearing on our understanding of the force and not mention it in any other movie other than TPM?

stillakid
08-27-2001, 10:06 PM
I'm sure that most of the people will concur when I say, "don't get me started!"

(see the old posts for further elaboration and many, many thesis-like discussions on this topic)

Darth Cruel
08-27-2001, 10:43 PM
George Lucas is not exactly famous for undoing stupid plot points like that one. My guess is that Mount Doom will freeze over before that happens to this one.

JediTricks
08-28-2001, 10:04 AM
I have a couple theories on this, but I don't have the time to repost them right now. I'll get to it later.

However, theories aside, I doubt Lucas will fix this giant mess.

JEDIpartner
08-28-2001, 10:29 AM
Midichlorian sounds like some Hi-tech electronic pool water cleaner.:confused:

The 'Xir
08-28-2001, 04:24 PM
OY! I have tried my best to help people understand this, here we go again! If you go back to the movie(TPM), they are just what Qui-Gon says they are, "life forms that live inside all living cells, they continually speak to us and help tell us the will of the force."

Top 5 points to remember

1. They are not the Force!

2. They don't literally speak to the Jedi.

3. They are just a Tool to help potential Force users focus, or tune into, the Force.

4. If they did not exist, it doesn't mean the Force would cease to exist, just that sentient life forms could not tap into the Force.

5. They don't destroy the mysticism of the Force, they just allow Force users to better control the Force!

Personally I think what Lucas is going for with these things is, like ourselves in real life, what gives us that sense of feeling of "something else"? Why do we feel there is something other than ourselves? What makes us develop religion? Is it ESP, God's omniself, or maybe midichlorians?! ;)
Look at it this way, there is a difference between spirituality, and religion. The Force being spirituality, and Midichlorians being religion! That which helps us define, control, and understand our spirituality! When I say define, I mean to give meaning without actually knowing or understanding the true nature of what we call God or someone else saying Alla, Budda, The Presence, etc!
To support these ideas, and the fact that Midichlorians do not destroy the Force or it's mysticism, I ask this: Does religion the tool to communicate and understand "God" destroy his/her mysticsim? If you belive in that sort of thing and have great faith in which ever religion you prescribe to, who here can honestly say they know who, or what God actually is?
Even for all his power, and wisdom, I'd say it's a safe bet that even Yoda doesn't fully know what the force is, although he provides one of the best descriptions thus far; "It's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." If anything this statement by Yoda destroys any mysticism the force holds, more than the Midichlorians do! Herein might lie the secret to the differnet aspects of the Force! The Light, The Dark, The Living, and whatever else George might throw at us!

stillakid
08-28-2001, 05:29 PM
Midichlorians do not destroy the Force or it's mysticism


That's a wonderful explanation of what Midis supposedly are and how they effect things around them. That's all well and good, however...

I believe that the greater issue for Star Wars fans 'round the world is how and why they should belong in the Universe at all.

To get it out of the way up front, my personal belief for their existence is because George Lucas, when sitting down to write this epic, needed some tangible way for Qui Gon to "see" that Anakin was strong with the Force. The Pod Race sequence was supposed to be the vehicle for this but that message (that because the human, Anakin, can do it he must be strong with the Force) gets lost very quickly in the action. Fearing we, the audience and all the dim-witted kids out there, wouldn't get it, GL concocts a measurable entity that the Jedi can actually count which essentially "gives" Anakin a strong power over the Force. Instead of being subtle, GL hits us over the head because A) he can't think of anything else on his own and refused to have other writers polish his work this time, and B) he thinks that we and the kids were going to be too stupid to understand any kind of subtle way of merely "showing" us Anakin's power.

The proof is in the precedent that he established years ago. Tomes have been written about how Luke, a simple farm boy, JUST LIKE YOU AND ME, discovered a strength in himself that he didn't know he had which helped him overcome his greatest fears and fulfill his innermost dreams. Never, not until TPM, was there any mention of Midichlorians. Luke, on his own, with basic physical, mental, and theological training from Yoda and Ben, achieved these things. No little beings talking to him from his bloodstream. He succeeded by going through the pain of trials as all mythic hero figures do.

There can be no argument that Lucas did not even imagine these things when the original trilogy was written or they would have shown up in the films AND in all that other Expanded Universe stuff as well as the countless books and videos that were made in the meantime.

He woke up one morning with a problem and solved it in a very amateurish way. That's the long and short of it.

If you belive in that sort of thing and have great faith in which ever religion you prescribe to, who here can honestly say they know who, or what God actually is?

The question conflicts with itself. If you have proof of anything, what then is the purpose of faith? Of course no one knows for certain who or what God is. The Hindu belief is actually very close to that of the Jedi. In very basic terms, God or whatever you want to call the original conscious entity, was one cohesive being. Who knows why, but "it" divided itself and created the Universe we know and everything in it. The consciousness (or "soul") that all living things possess, are shards of that original cohesive energy. When we die, our little piece of that consciousness rejoins with the rest of the "free" energy out there. That energy seems to be what Yoda is talking about when he describes the Force to Luke. Unlike us, the Jedi have managed to tap into this energy to do "magical" things and "see" the future. Using different words, most religions subscribe to this line of thought, though many would be reluctant to join in the comparison.

Scientifically, we don't know if this energy thing is true or not. But through religion, we have "faith" that it is. The Jedi seem to "know" it to be true and have more or less proven it by discovering the secret to manipulating it. That's a huge point and not to be glossed over. We and they are very different. Our religion(s) attempt to explain life, it's origins, it's purpose, and it's destination. The religion of the Jedi, as presented in the films, does none of that, rather it's sole purpose is to use their understanding of the nature of the Universe, manipulate it when necessary, for what they perceive as being the greater good.

That's the Force. Where do the Midichlorians fit in? Again, fine if they exist as middlemen. But only if the continuity of the original trilogy is not upset by their introduction so late in the game. The bad news is that, yes, there are problems. Big ones. They don't belong.

BenQuad
08-28-2001, 06:22 PM
But stillakid you mentioned God... now I'm warning you that was a really bad thing to do....

Any similarity between your favourite SW saga and the bible is truly circumstantial (:))....

Oh please, I'm sure it won't be long before the bible-bashers start to knock on your door.......................

Jargo
08-28-2001, 07:08 PM
What makes us develop religion? Is it ESP, God's omniself, or maybe midichlorians?!
power. That is the driving force of religion. The ability of the strong to manipulate the weak by way of symbolism and fear and urban myth. religion is just a different spelling of cult.
The strong have faith in themselves, the weak have faith in the strong. Exploitation is all it is.

Qui-Gon exploited a weak little boy to suit his own greed for self gratification and glory. He is no different from Palpatine in the sense that he uses others to further his own gains. The Jedi are just as evil as any Imperial supremo. They exploit every weakness in a person to get their own way. Man - I detest those Jedi!:mad:

stillakid
08-28-2001, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO

power. That is the driving force of religion.

Power is the driving force of "organized" religion. I was speaking in a broader sense. When you start getting into individual denominations and organizations, it's a whole different discussion.

bigbarada
08-28-2001, 07:30 PM
As someone who believes in God and The Bible, but not in any organized religion, I must agree with Emperor Jargo. Religion is a way of exploiting the weak and keeping the masses ignorant.

Qui-Gonn used the midichlorian theory to manipulate Anakin, and to eventually get his way. He believed in the prophecy of the "Chosen One" so strongly that he put everything on the line, including other people's possessions (the Queen's Starship) and the fate of an entire planet (Naboo). Decisions he had no right to take upon himself.

Hopefully, Ep2 and 3 will shed some more light onto the whole midichlorian thing, I'd still like to believe that GL didn't just throw them in there to resolve a minor plot point. So FOR NOW I'm giving GL the benefit of the doubt. If after watching Ep3 he hasn't come up with a reasonable solution then I will be happy to join in the midichlorian-hate-debate.

Obi-Don
08-29-2001, 08:39 AM
All I can say to these posts, is WOW!

stillakid
08-29-2001, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
As someone who believes in God and The Bible, but not in any organized religion,

Not to get into this too much, but the Bible is the basis for more than one organized religion. Several sections of it conflict with one another and the organized religions that subscribe to its canon's conflict themselves.

There are many portions of the Bible which closely resemble other religious literary works, such as the Koran.

To believe in the Bible and not believe in any organized religion is kind of like believing in the McDonald's menu board but not believing that there is a building standing there.

But this is sooo far off track. I apologize. I've been reading Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth.

The 'Xir
08-29-2001, 11:18 AM
I also share Obi-Don's sentiments, I commend everyone on there well thought out posts!
The one thing I wanted to point out was stillakids' point about Luke! I agree, and feel that Luke's triumph should reflect an individuals courage and ability to overcome any obstacle, however, I still think that will hold true even with the introduction of the midichlorians! Because, Luke's individual effort was mainly encompassed in ANH, after that it became something more, more of a spiritual journey, along with a greater strength found within the Love of family and friends! Hence, ROTJ ending with the song singing: 'Celebrate the love' So once Luke's journey takes on more of the spiritual sense, he is been aided by other "forces" (excuse the pun) and this is where Midichorians could be fit in, despite Yoda's "appearent" need not to tell Luke about them! ;)
Remember, QuiGon states,"We form a symbiant relationship with them...Life forms living together for mutual advantage". Well, if we want to get technical about it, there's plenty of organisms that live inside us that protect us from all sorts of things, mainly disease and viruses, and with out them we would cease to exist, so maybe midichorians could be thought of just as irrelevant as other organisms we take for granted. Yet, QuiGon felt a need to tell Anakin, where Yoda did not. On that note remember that it is shown that Qui-Gon, does seem to focus one aspect of the force(The Living), and he has been shown at odds with the council about a great many things! Maybe both sides are right in what they preach it's just that more Jedi tend to follow a certain ideal, or way of thinking over another!

The 'Xir
08-29-2001, 11:39 AM
Oh, stillakid, I forgot to mention, It's good to see that you're brushing up on your Joseph Campbell. As I think I've mentioned before in other threads, here are some other good reads into the philosophical, metaphysical, and theological ideologies: 'Black Elk Speaks', by John Heibhardt(I think I spelled that right). 'The Celestine Prophesy' & 'The Tenth Insight' by James Redfield. The Babylonian text, 'The Epic of Gigamesh' my version is translated by an Andrew George. Also, 'Cyborgs @ Cyberspace' by David Hakken, which brings all these wonderful sociolgical, and anthropological ideas and meanings into the computer revolution and beyond! As boring and studious as those might sound, some of those are fun and pretty cool adventure stories!

JEDIpartner
08-29-2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Top 5 points to remember

1. They are not the Force!

2. They don't literally speak to the Jedi.

3. They are just a Tool to help potential Force users focus, or tune into, the Force.

4. If they did not exist, it doesn't mean the Force would cease to exist, just that sentient life forms could not tap into the Force.

5. They don't destroy the mysticism of the Force, they just allow Force users to better control the Force![/B]

Based on this... Midichlorians are like little Force magnifying glasses???

stillakid
08-29-2001, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look.

stillakid
08-29-2001, 01:07 PM
[/B]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The 'Xir
Top 5 points to remember

1. They are not the Force!

2. They don't literally speak to the Jedi.

3. They are just a Tool to help potential Force users focus, or tune into, the Force.

4. If they did not exist, it doesn't mean the Force would cease to exist, just that sentient life forms could not tap into the Force.

5. They don't destroy the mysticism of the Force, they just allow Force users to better control the Force![/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's all well and good, but I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Midichlorians should be a part of the Star Wars Universe in the first place.

A) They were not mentioned previous to TPM, ever, and definitely break the established continuity.

B) Using TPM to justify their existence is not allowed, as it would be like defining a word with itself.

C) Any attempt at explanation and justification of their 11th hour introduction into the series can be nothing more than the shoehorning in of a necessary rationalization to make it all "work out" somehow.

bigbarada
08-29-2001, 01:21 PM
Stillakid, I must disagree with your sentiment on the Bible and religion. I'll make this brief, but people using the Bible to further their own ends and fill their own pocket book; that's religion. Which is totally different from just following the Bible's doctrine. Having grown up with a Baptist preacher for a dad, I've seen how corrupt many churches really are.

Anyways, I tend to stick to the idea that the midichlorians are just a theory, similar to any theory we have in our world. Many believe in one interpretation of the data, and many dismiss those beliefs and form their own opinions. Yoda has been around a lot longer than the rest of the Council, thus he's much more experienced in the ways of the Force, suddenly this idea of the Force being channeled through these little microscopic beings comes along and soon many people consider it fact. So you can see how Yoda would be a litle skeptical.

stillakid
08-29-2001, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Stillakid, I must disagree with your sentiment on the Bible and religion. I'll make this brief, but people using the Bible to further their own ends and fill their own pocket book; that's religion. Which is totally different from just following the Bible's doctrine. Having grown up with a Baptist preacher for a dad, I've seen how corrupt many churches really are.

Anyways, I tend to stick to the idea that the midichlorians are just a theory, similar to any theory we have in our world. Many believe in one interpretation of the data, and many dismiss those beliefs and form their own opinions. Yoda has been around a lot longer than the rest of the Council, thus he's much more experienced in the ways of the Force, suddenly this idea of the Force being channeled through these little microscopic beings comes along and soon many people consider it fact. So you can see how Yoda would be a litle skeptical.


I'm not exactly where this idea of Midis just being a theory came in. It's certainly not in the film. They have a little Midi counter (conveniently placed on the ship I might add) that they use to, well, use to count the little buggers. Where's the "theory" in that? Yoda never expressed any doubt whatsoever in the existence of them. He only expressed doubt that Anakin might be the "chosen one." Yoda's Midi count was even a part of public record.

I think that the definition of religion here on this planet will eternally be mired by symantics. While it is true that there are individuals who use(d) religion to control and manipulate, that idea has little to do with one's belief system and the documents they use to back it up. The Bible as well as other religious texts are most definitely works created and used solely for the use by organized religious institutions. Saying that you follow the doctrines that have been put forth by the Bible is different than saying that you believe in the Bible. To "believe" in it connotes a belief in the specific institutions that helped to create it in the first place. For instance, you might enjoy the family related doctrines of the Mormon Church but choose to disregard the rest of the theology. Does that make you Mormon? No and the elders wouldn't be interested in having you around either. The same goes for the Catholic Church, though they have recently tried to be more accepting of members who question authority. Thankfully we don't live in other countries where religious belief is so integrated into the government that people are routinely killed for having the wrong haircut.

Anyway, organized religion, like any other large institution, is susceptible to becoming corrupt. "Religion," on the other hand, is what you make of it. The ideals you strive for, the doctrines you follow, the answers you're looking for and where you choose to find them all go together to make up your "religion." Our world has pre-built religion "kits" that you can join. Be Hindu, Catholic, or Jew. You choose and the institution will tell you what you are supposed to believe. How convenient! Despite the apparent differences, they all have commonalities that seem to point to one unifying source. It is in those differences that so-called leaders find ways to exploit and control oft-times unwitting followers.

The Jedi (back to Star Wars. Whew!), as the films show us, are the only religion in town and clearly, not many inhabitants are signing up as if they could. The Jedi Council dictates who is to be "trained." If it weren't for a little nepotism, Luke would still be a farmboy. Anakin was "blessed" with a high Midichlorian count which gave him the advantage, but the Jedi Council, out of fear, wanted nothing to do with him. That's classic behavior from organized religion. Control the population or they will lose power. Presumably, that's what we'll see in EP II and III.

bigbarada
08-29-2001, 06:16 PM
Yoda never expressed any doubt whatsoever in the existence of them. He only expressed doubt that Anakin might be the "chosen one." Yoda's Midi count was even a part of public record.

I never said Yoda doubted their existence, just their purpose for existence. The theory idea is just something I came up with to rationalize the midichlorian thing. It may be refuted in Ep2 and 3, but until then I'll stick to it.

I can honestly say right now that I do not have enough information on the midichlorians to form an opinion on them. I don't want to judge anybody who decides to hate them or love them; but I prefer people don't judge me for tolerating them. If you hate them that much that's fine, it's your opinion; but that doesn't mean it's the right opinion. Let others share their views and respect those opinions, as you would expect us to respect yours. If your only argument is, "well I hate them so everyone else should," then you'll quickly find that you're arguing only with yourself. Because everyone else has stopped listening.

stillakid
08-29-2001, 06:39 PM
I've never disallowed anyone from sharing an opinion nor implied that other opinions were wrong. An opinion by definition is neither right nor wrong. Based upon the "evidence" at hand, I can see no point to Midichlorians except as a lame plot device but am actually eager to hear any logical explanation to the contrary. None has been put forth so far. People keep asking so I keep telling. I'm not the only one that holds these opinions.

And I don't recall Yoda doubting their purpose for existence. There is no dialogue to support that. He claims to doubt Qui Gon's assertation that Anakin is the Chosen One. The reasons for that are up for debate (fear, honest belief, etc) but Midichlorians had nothing to do with it.

The 'Xir
08-29-2001, 08:44 PM
Now, Now boys, let's not get sidetracked here, you both were doing well there for a while! ( I just love these type of deep rooted debates!!! :D )
BB- I have to admit though you through me for a loop on the whole Yoda thing also!
Quote:
--
suddenly this idea of the Force being channeled through these little microscopic beings comes along and soon many people consider it fact. So you can see how Yoda would be a litle skeptical.
--
I hate to say it but this sounds like your mixing up the order of the movies! TPM is the first movie, and is establishing the idea of Midichloriians! Qui-Gon may have his own opinion, but they are established as s-a-k noted with the (Jedi)public knowledge of Yoda's Midi-count!

s-a-k: Why aren't the reason that I gave for the Midichlorians logical enough?

bigbarada
08-30-2001, 08:47 AM
BB- I have to admit though you through me for a loop on the whole Yoda thing also!

"I don't know, I'm making this up as I go.":D

JediTricks
08-30-2001, 11:40 AM
Ok, here come my personal theories on Midi-Chlorians and their creation of Anakin:

My theory is that midi-chlorians do not create the Force nor a way to communicate with the Force, but instead are the RESULT of Force-ability within a user. They don't do ANYTHING like what Qui-Gon was talking about, instead they're just an indicator of something else: the more that show up in your bloodstream, the more you're touched by the Force. (This way, Qui-Gon was kinda like one of those folks from the middle ages who thought that bleedings could heal mental illnesses.) This bloodcount thing would work kind of like how a bloodtest can indicate how ill someone is based on a white bloodcell count; but if someone has a special condition like some sort of midi-chlorian inhibitor or simply less midi-chlorians in general, they would not show up in their bloodstream yet they could still have a strong connection to the Force. Come to think of it, this could explain away how Dark Jedi and Sith don't get found at a very young age by the Jedi order, though I'm not saying every Force user without a high midi-chlorian count MUST be evil, just that it's not likely they'd be trained in the light side.


Now, as for the creation of Anakin, Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi knight who doesn't always follow the code, learns about the prophecy of the son of suns and gets wrapped up in the concept of the boy who will bring balance to the Force. Qui-Gon does a lot of research about the galaxy - planets, customs, politics, etc. - and eventually zeroes in on the Outer Rim, then goes to Tatooine where he finds an unknown slave lass (Shmi) and decides to get her knocked up. After he does, the Jedi, in disguise, clouds her mind as to what happened and beats a hasty retreat. Almost as soon as Qui-Gon returns to the Jedi order, he's given a new padawan learner, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and teaching this youngster the ways of the Force distracts Jinn from concentrating on his real son until he is sent to Naboo (Tatooine being in a straight line between Coruscant and this Naboo), where he sabotages the Queen's starship, let's his apprentice "find" Tatooine as a safe haven, and manipulates the situation to make sure he gets the ship to this planet and even parks the royal starship near the city where his slave woman was last.

The 'Xir
08-30-2001, 08:23 PM
JT- see comments/praise in EPI:TPM thread about same topic!
Midi-theory: Cool!

Anakin Theory: Uuuuuummm.....No!!!

stillakid
08-30-2001, 10:56 PM
BB, that's one of the best replies I've seen in a long time! :)

As for the continuing debate about the Midi's, I'm fine with all the explanations given for what they are and how they operate. That's all cool...only if this movie was operating in a vaccuum.

The trouble is that it's not. It has the same saga title as three other films and countless extraneous materials produced since 1977. Therefore it probably should try a little bit to stay within the boundries. That's my beef with the Midi's. They just plain don't fit into the precedent set up before TPM. It's not my fault. ;)

2-1B
08-31-2001, 01:20 AM
Personally, I'd like it if Lucas debunks the whole midichlorian thing in the next film. But since I don't think it's likely, I hope the topic is just ignored. Never to be referred to again on the big screen.

Alas, I'm sure Madame Jocasta Nu will have an opportunity to spit out Dooku's midichlorian count . . .

JediTricks
08-31-2001, 10:01 AM
Xir, I'll admit that the Anakin's conception one is going WAAAAAY out on a limb, but I just don't like the way Lucas is going with the Jesus immacculate conception thing. I think it all spawned from the Illustrated Screenplay, which has Shmi saying this line about Ani's conception: "There was no father, that I know of..." (emphasis mine, not the script's) In the original version, Lucas at least has the stones to leave it open to interpretation a little, but when he cut that little "that I know of" thing, it leaves Yoda's "The chosen one, the boy may be..." weakened.

As for the "Qui-Gon got it backwards" theory, I'm glad you dig it. It just popped into my head one day and made so much sense, especially since Lucas does leave the issue open a bit in Ep 1 and, as Stillakid rightly points out, there's absolutely no mention of Midis in the classic trilogy.

Capitan_Moroni
09-13-2003, 12:08 PM
No and the elders wouldn't be interested in having you around either.



(I hope that quote deal worked.) Actually, we welcome anybody, we dont turn away people who are not members of our church.

stillakid
09-14-2003, 12:08 AM
(I hope that quote deal worked.) Actually, we welcome anybody, we dont turn away people who are not members of our church.

What about members of your church who admit to being homosexual or lesbian and refuse to "renounce" their "sin"? Do you welcome them to stay?