PDA

View Full Version : There can be only two?



SithDroid
03-18-2002, 04:42 PM
How can there only be two Sith at one time? I was watching ESB today and realized that Vader and Palpatine agree that if they can turn Luke to the Dark side then he would be a great asset. How is this possible? If they turn Luke then he would in fact become a Sith. With Luke, Vader, and Palpatine that makes three. Was this rule of only always two just recently thought of or was it the idea all along like Lucas has stated in many interviews about other topics?

The only reasoning I can think of is that Vader thinks he can use Luke to destory the Emperor and Palpatine thinks the can use Luke to get rid of Vader. Which even now that TPM is out seems a little ridiculous since Vader probably has a higher midichlorian count than Luke does.:crazed: I mean, Luke can't even lift his own X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, but little old Yoda can and he has a midiclorian count less than Vader, so why get rid of Vader for Luke? See GL. Midichlorians were a bad idea. Everything revolves around how absurd this idea is. I hope this gets changed for a Special Edition of TPM and there is no mention of them. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Rollo Tomassi
03-18-2002, 05:58 PM
Vader definitely wants to use Luke to destroy Palpy and become Sith numero uno "Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

Palpy wants Luke to replace Vader, who is getting to uppity. "Stike your father down and take his place by my side." better to have a less powerful Sith you can control, than the really powerful one you can't.

Either way, you've only got two Sith left: Vader and Luke, or Palpy and Luke. it's just the Sith way, I guess.

SithDroid
03-18-2002, 06:04 PM
That is what I was getting at, but doesn't it seem odd that they both agreed to turning him, so if I'm Vader and it is up to me or Palpatine to leave, then who would I choose and vice versa. So basically they were agreeing on trying to get rid of one another and knew it intentionally? I don't buy this. I think this whole there can be only two came about after the OT.

Dryanta
03-18-2002, 08:27 PM
Both Palpatine and Vader are evil.Period.I don't have a problem with the idea that were in agreement that one of them would be master and Luke a sith apprentice.They were both certainly arrogant enough to think they would be the last one standing.I think it's a good point about the emporer not being able to control Vader.But he could Luke.Not because of a possibly lower midichlorian count but due to his age and experience.
Vader was capable of doing what ever he wanted.The greatest jedi ever.More than able to handle the Emporer.I don't think he ever made a move against him is because of the two rule.There was no other potential or otherwise.
No honor among thieves as they say.

chewie
03-18-2002, 10:39 PM
Both sith lords realized only two could remain. Though of course, the two of them would never bring up that subject when talking about Luke. It was basically quietly understood amongst the two, but Palpatine foolishly assumed that Vader would allow himself to be sacrificed to allow Luke to join.

2-1B
03-19-2002, 12:25 AM
Also, Palps may not have had the same advantage in getting to Luke. Maybe Palps thought that his best way to ensnare Luke was through his father. Too bad for the old coot though, since Luke spoiled his plan by being 'all good and stuff' :D

LTBasker
03-19-2002, 04:44 AM
Sounds like a frickin' playground situation to me... :rolleyes:

Vader: Hey kid, c'mon, be on my team! We'll rule!
Palpy: No no no, he's a liar, be on my team, I'll be your best friend!

:D

SithDroid
03-19-2002, 03:34 PM
What happens if there is more than two? Is there a paradox and the universe implodes? Who came up with this rule. And also, isn't there a tale in the EU comics, I think it was one of the Tales of the Jedi Books, that talks about how there used to be more than just two at a time.

icatch9
03-19-2002, 03:56 PM
These are all good points, but what if we look at this from another angle. What is a Sith? Technically what do you have to do to be a Sith? See I think if Luke had turned he would have been a Dark Jedi. This is a term used a lot in the EU, and I think it will be the case in the upcoming prequels. There can probably be hundreds Dark Jediís. See I think maybe Anakin never completes his training as a Jedi and thus was never a Jedi (despite what Obi-Wan says, he lied a lot to Luke). Anakin is turned and his training is finished by Palpatine and so he is a Sith. Maul was trained by a Sith so he is a Sith. Luke was trained as a Jedi, not a Sith, so he would have been a Dark Jedi not a Sith.

Again, this is just a theory, but I am sure many people will strike mine opinion down

Dryanta
03-19-2002, 04:38 PM
Interesting idea icatch9.
Where would you fit Qui gon Jinns comment about Maul"being trained in the Jedi arts" into this theory.Just curious.

dr_evazan22
03-19-2002, 05:23 PM
I agree w/ icatch9, you can be a dark jedi w/out being a sith. The sith are a sect of dark jedi-ism. Being a dark jedi doesn't make you sith, but being sith makes you a dark jedi.

As for Vader, he's Palps whipping boy and "yes" man. He toes the line. His (living) spirit was crushed("there is no hope for me now. Obi Wan once thought as you did. Palps is your master now"). If he turned Luke, then that would've been his greatest betrayal. What turned him was seeing his son being killed... What helped turn him was the anger from losing family members close to him.

BountyHunter
03-19-2002, 07:22 PM
Sith Droid you also must consider the fact that the EU comics and books that go with the main star wars story line, well, in a way they can not count for the star wars movies, because George Didn't put them there. But I do know which comic you are talking about it is the Dark Empire Comics, very good I have read a few before. But I agree with what another user said about you can be a dark jedi but not a sith. and to add to that, maybe a sith mean the two leaders of the dark jedi army? Because the Dark Jedi are warriors, the jedi are not warriors, they are peace keepers, so maybe the dark jedi came first and the jedi came after them to defeat them and keep the peace?

Dryanta
03-19-2002, 08:07 PM
I don't really have any knowledge of the EU stuff so I really don't know about the whole "Dark jedi" idea.I am one of the ones out here that would say if it shows in a movie than it's real.Cannon I guess it's called.
I do think the two rule is real and was shown in the OT.
To get a little metaphysical here who's to say that it was the force that destined Both Palpy and Vader to die at the same time?
If one had survived there would be a void.Well maybe not.Vader did turn back so I guess there may not have been a void.It is clear that the living force does intervene at times directly hence Anakins conception.He is after all the one who will restore balance to the force.He gets rid of both the beurocratic Jedi and the evil sith in his life time.I really don't know.I like the two rule.Once maul died Anikin became the apprentice even if he was unaware of it.I also think that both Palpy and Vader knew one of them would not make it out if they turned Luke.I'm really just guessing here.Kinda like the whole why some dissapear and lightsaber color think.Maybe we'll get answers from Gl .maybe we'll be talking about the same things in 50 years

Darkross
03-20-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Interesting idea icatch9.
Where would you fit Qui gon Jinns comment about Maul"being trained in the Jedi arts" into this theory.Just curious.

At the time of Qui Gon's comments, he didn't believe that Darth Maul was a Sith...since the Sith had been thought of as extinct for a 1000 years...so where would the Sith have come from?

Darkross
03-20-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
What happens if there is more than two? Is there a paradox and the universe implodes? Who came up with this rule. And also, isn't there a tale in the EU comics, I think it was one of the Tales of the Jedi Books, that talks about how there used to be more than just two at a time.

Darth Bane inacted the rule of Master and Apprentice over a thousand years before TPM. Once the Sith had wiped each other out...Darth Bane being the only one left standing after the great feud...inacted that there should only be two Sith - Master and Apprentice. If a Sith initiate were to become an apprentice...then they would have to kill the current Sith apprentice in order to be Sith #2. Same applies if the apprentice were to become the Master, he would have to challenge the Master and kill him in order to take his place.

Vader had plans to use Luke to help him destroy the Emperor "Luke...you can destroy the Emperor...he has forseen this...it is your destiny!" and then Vader would complete Luke's training "Join me...and I will complete your training...with our combined strength...we can end this destructive conflict...and bring order to the galaxy!"

When you think about it...Luke (Once he became a Jedi)...was more powerful than the Emperor and Vader. He managed to turn Vader back to the light side and thus using Vader to kill the Emperor. Now that is ironic...since both Vader and the Emperor were going to use Luke to off the other...Luke ends up using Vader to kill the Emperor...who in turn kills Vader in his wrath toward Luke refusing to turn to the Darkside.

2-1B
03-20-2002, 11:42 AM
Qui-Gonn suggested to the Council that the guy was possibly a Sith. Weazing on the floor of the Queen's ship, he was just describing Maul's abilities to Obi-Wan and Anakin.
I don't believe it was just during the ride home that Jinn figured out Maul's Sith status.

Dryanta
03-20-2002, 01:55 PM
I agree with caesar on the QGJ point.he knew what Maul was.
Also yoda wouldn't even have been old enough to have ever encountered a sith,but I'm sure if He fought with one he'd know what it was.I really have no idea about the Eu stuff at all.I personally think that a group of people like the sith wouldn't really care about a rule some guy had come up with a thousand years before.these are evil individuals.I'd sooner think the two rule is a function of the force itself.Other wise there would be sith every where.I really don't know.I personally don't look to the Eu for answers.GL can change what ever he wants whenever he wants

Darkross
03-20-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
I agree with caesar on the QGJ point.he knew what Maul was.
Also yoda wouldn't even have been old enough to have ever encountered a sith,but I'm sure if He fought with one he'd know what it was.I really have no idea about the Eu stuff at all.I personally think that a group of people like the sith wouldn't really care about a rule some guy had come up with a thousand years before.these are evil individuals.I'd sooner think the two rule is a function of the force itself.Other wise there would be sith every where.I really don't know.I personally don't look to the Eu for answers.GL can change what ever he wants whenever he wants

No...no...no...I too once thought this about the Sith...thinking that the Darkside of the force was stronger than the good side...thus only needing two Sith to bring balance to the force with hundreds of Jedi. But the fact is...with the darkside...comes anger, fear, aggression...which in itself contributes to lust for more power...and resulting in too many sith fighting for supremacy of that power. This is what ultimately undid the Sith. At one time there were hundreds of Sith...but a civil war if you will broke out amongst them and they faught each other over control of the darkside...thus wiping out all but one Sith lord..."DARTH BANE".

The rule of One Master, one apprentice was inacted by Darth Bane to prevent any future wars among the Sith for control of the darkside that nearly extincted them.

Dryanta
03-20-2002, 05:02 PM
So what you're saying is that the power hungry ,violent, hate filled sith respect what one guy set down as rule 1000 years ago.
So if I follow this line of logic then there will never be more than three people in the entire galaxy that wants to be a sith lord.
There would be plenty of aspiring sith lords at any given time.So considering that they are a different breed to begin with ,I don't think they would say to themselves"Oh no ,I can't be a sith because there already two."I personally still think that it's a function of the force itself.According to everything we've seen in the films it controls everything including destiny.So there would never be more that two destined to be a sith at any given time.Look at the time span between Maul and Anakin.I never thought for second that the darkside is stronger than the light side either.As a matter of fact I don't find them to even be equal.
I guess where we draw a line of distinction is the EU.I personally give no credibility to the EU.Maybe that's a mistake but that's the way I look at things.Oh well,good topic of discussion just the same.One last thing,where in the OT is the term sith even used,let alone reffering to either Palpatine or Vader as a sith?It doesn't come up until EP1

SithDroid
03-20-2002, 07:58 PM
Mod's note: The following post contains a minor E2 spoiler. Highlight to read.

Yeah, no kidding. If indeed Darth Bane set up this rule over 1,000 years ago and there haven't been any Sith in that time frame, then how in the world do they know about this rule in the first place and also what makes them decided to follow it? Luke obviously doesn't follow the Old Jedi Order, but instead creates his own and that has only been roughly 30-40 years after the Jedi (not including Ben and Yoda) became extinct. So if he can do it in that time frame, then why can't the Sith bring about there own new set of rules seeing as it has been a millenium since there has been any. This rule of two just doesn't make sense. Personally I'd like to see tons of Jedi fighting tons of Sith in the Clone Wars. I hope we get to see this in EP III. The huge lightsaber battle in EPII looks cool, but they are only fighting battle droids and genosians, not other Jedi or Sith. I mean how cool would it be to see a HUGE Lightsaber battle. This is what I'm hoping to see anyway. Plus if we take the EU into account, C'baoth is a clone that was made during the clone wars so we know for sure that Jedi were indeed cloned. So, it is very possible.

dr_evazan22
03-20-2002, 09:34 PM
The sith have been around for the past 1000 years, just in the background not making themselves known to the Jedi.
Their goal was power and/or galactic domination. They bided their time, building their resources and power base. That explains how Sidiuos was able to manipulate the Trade Fed into invading Naboo.
In the Journal of the Whills from the original SW novel, it says that the Empire came to power w/ the backing of commerce and banking industries.

The reason the sith only have 2 is b/c if there were more they would be killing each other to get each others power base. No honor among thieves.

As for wannabe sith trying to become sith: The 2 would kill the wannabe b/c they're a threat to the sith's plans.

It would be cool if there were a huge saber battle but what's in it for the sith?

SithDroid
03-20-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by dr_evazan22
It would be cool if there were a huge saber battle but what's in it for the sith?

How about the extinction of the peacekeeping Jedi. It seems most likely that Jedi would be a far greater threat than just some average soldier. Besides by EP III all the Jedi become extinct (except Ben and Yoda) because Vader hunts them down and kills all of them. What cooler way to do this than to have clone Jedi/Sith fight them. Since they are clones they are expendable. Besides Vader would probably do away with all of them eventually anyway.

Darkross
03-21-2002, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid


How about the extinction of the peacekeeping Jedi. It seems most likely that Jedi would be a far greater threat than just some average soldier. Besides by EP III all the Jedi become extinct (except Ben and Yoda) because Vader hunts them down and kills all of them. What cooler way to do this than to have clone Jedi/Sith fight them. Since they are clones they are expendable. Besides Vader would probably do away with all of them eventually anyway.

Well said Dr_evazan22 about the Sith. For the rest of you who don't believe in the origins of the Sith or the rule...check out the www.starwars.com and check out the keyword Sith and you will find what I'm saying to be true. You can also do a search on the net for Sith and you will find tons of sites that explain their background.

As far as clone Jedi / Sith...I don't think that would work. Although they are expendable...they are clones, physical copies of a person...not exact copies (mental abilities, knowledge of the force). I believe that if you were to create a clone army of Jedi, then they would all have to be fully trained in the ways of the Sith / Jedi in order to be Jedi / Sith clones. Anyone want to comment on this?

Dryanta
03-21-2002, 09:19 AM
I need to back out of this one I guess.I really don't know anything about the EU.And it seems this conversation keeps coming back to it.Nothing wrong with that I just need to get out of you guys's way.I will make one last comment though.If Midichlorians are a seperate life form they wouldn't be included in the cloning process would they?I really don't know

dr_evazan22
03-21-2002, 09:24 AM
What I meant by "what's in it for the Sith?" is why should they be the ones to fight the Jedi? The clones may be an expendable resource... or "asset", as Palp's refers to the possibility of turning Luke in ESB, but the Sith are not expendable.
The way Sidious/Palp's manipulated others in TPM was a masterful stroke, and it was a win/win situation for Palps. TPM also shows why the Sith wouldn't want to confront the Jedi directly... I'm referring to MAul's death. Even that worked out for Palps b/c Maul was only an attack dog, an assassin. Maul didn't display the strategic thinking nescessary for ultimately achieving the Sith goals.

Darkross
03-21-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Dryanta
If Midichlorians are a seperate life form they wouldn't be included in the cloning process would they?I really don't know

Good question...my point exactly! The midichlorians are sybiot (Spelling ??) lifeforms. Who can really say if they could be cloned or would be cloned when creating clones.

SithDroid
03-21-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Darkross


Good question...my point exactly! The midichlorians are sybiot (Spelling ??) lifeforms. Who can really say if they could be cloned or would be cloned when creating clones.

Exactly my point. So how does C'baoth gain his powers? Man GL, everything now revolves around these stupid midichlorians. A word of advice, think before you act. I'm tired of Midichlorians. Dwon with them.

darthvyn
06-01-2002, 04:26 PM
i think it's actually symbiant, but i'm not sure.

as for the balance thing, i still maintain my theory that the balance takes place in ep III as the two sith bring the number of jedi to... two as well.

ben and yoda, sidious and vader. two and two. that's the balance. the prophecy is true, just not a good one.

bigbarada
06-01-2002, 10:08 PM
"symbiote"

The way I see the "only two" rule is that Darth Bane supposedly instigated it after the great Sith war. I'm assuming Darth Bane found a way to extend his life so that he could pass on his knowledge, or he could simply be of a long-lived species like Yoda. I assume Sidious was trained by Bane and maybe Bane was killed by Sidious at some point, be it by lightsaber or through treachery.

The Ep1 novelization specifically mentions Darth Bane and his reorganization of the Sith order.

The way I see it there would probably be plenty of wannabe Sith in the galaxy; but there would simply be no way to train them. Unless one of the two Sith were killed, then there would be no openings for new apprentices. It probably has something to do with the Sith Holocron also. If there were only one then whoever controlled that would have ultimate power over any other Sith and would also have exclusive access to all that ancient knowledge.

saladin
06-02-2002, 12:28 AM
they both probably wanted him for their iwn benefit.
or maybe they didn't care abouth the rules any more at that point. why not have a back up if some one does die.

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
"symbiote"

i know what our english word for it is, but it seems as though in ep I that they are not saying symbiote, but a derivation of the word, which i heard as symbiant.

bigbarada
06-02-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


i know what our english word for it is, but it seems as though in ep I that they are not saying symbiote, but a derivation of the word, which i heard as symbiant.

The name of one of the members of a 'symbiotic' relationship is 'symbiont.' I guess Liam Neeson's accent might have twisted it to sound like it is spelled with an 'a.'

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 01:15 AM
Remember that the Sith were not just a sect but an actual species that was extremely in tune with the darkside. That is why they say they have been "extinct".

RooJay
06-06-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
What happens if there is more than two? Is there a paradox and the universe implodes? Who came up with this rule. And also, isn't there a tale in the EU comics, I think it was one of the Tales of the Jedi Books, that talks about how there used to be more than just two at a time.

If there's more than two, there will be three or more. :D It is just a rule, afterall! The only reason that rule exists is because (now this is pretty much EU, so those of you who hate that sort of thing should cover your ears!) WAY back when there were LOTS of Sith they used to fight and scheme against each other all the time! They were their own worst enemies and because of this, they were never really able to accomplish much besides creating havoc. They actually all wiped each other out except for a Sith Lord named Darth Bane who restarted the order and started the practice of there only ever being two Sith so that the order could work more effectively, albeit behind the shadows. The master would pass on his training and probably whatever work he had accomplished to his apprentice who would then train a new apprentice when his master was no more. I suppose if any of the Sith had wanted during all that time while they were in hiding one of the masters could've trained dozens, maybe even hundreds of apprentices if he wanted to and could find the time, but that just never happened. They all pretty much stuck with Darth Bane's rule of two! Pretty neat, huh?

RooJay
06-06-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid


Exactly my point. So how does C'baoth gain his powers? Man GL, everything now revolves around these stupid midichlorians. A word of advice, think before you act. I'm tired of Midichlorians. Dwon with them.

Well, if you were one of those people who choose to ignore the EU then C'baoth doesn't gain powers...because he never exists. If you're one of us who choose to accept the EU then perhaps it's possible that the sample the used to create him also contained some midichlorians that were later injected into the developing clone.
In fact, if you go back and read Zahn's trilogy he mentions that it was common practice to grow clones that were unable to access the Force because doing so had a strong tendency to drive the clone mad, which is exactly what happens in the case of C'baoth.

RooJay
06-06-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Which even now that TPM is out seems a little ridiculous since Vader probably has a higher midichlorian count than Luke does.

I'm just a bit interested in why that would be so? Where does that notion come from?

SithDroid
06-06-2002, 11:19 PM
Roojay, you have to read what I initially wrote after that part. It goes along with it.

RooJay
06-07-2002, 12:42 AM
I did read what you initially wrote, and then I read it again just to be safe, but I'm sorry, I still don't get it.

SithDroid
06-07-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Which even now that TPM is out seems a little ridiculous since Vader probably has a higher midichlorian count than Luke does.:crazed: I mean, Luke can't even lift his own X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, but little old Yoda can and he has a midiclorian count less than Vader, so why get rid of Vader for Luke? See GL. Midichlorians were a bad idea. Everything revolves around how absurd this idea is.

See, what I was getting at was that now since TPM has been made it doesn't make sense with the OT. Why would the Emperor give up Vader who has the highest midichlorian count, over Luke who can't even lift his own X-Wing out of the swamp. That ws my point.

bigbarada
06-07-2002, 09:45 AM
Luke's midichlorians count is like genetics, all potential. If Luke doesn't know how to lift his X-Wing out of the swamp then he won't be able to do it. Not that he didn't have the potential to learn, he just didn't have that particular skill at that moment in time. Just like a kid born from a pro-Football player. While he might have the potential to be a good Football player himself, he will still suck at the game if no one teaches him the rules.

However, my suspicion is that you didn't really want an answer when you asked this question. You just wanted to find another way to justify why we should all hate the prequels.:rolleyes:

Jonna
06-07-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid


See, what I was getting at was that now since TPM has been made it doesn't make sense with the OT. Why would the Emperor give up Vader who has the highest midichlorian count, over Luke who can't even lift his own X-Wing out of the swamp. That ws my point.

Well, it is sort of like the difference between getting a cat or a kitten. Or something like that.....

Where as Vader may be stronger, he is also, I imagine, constantly somewhat distracted from concentrating on this use of the force/darkside because of his physical pain/problems. Remember he can not even breathe on his own. Where as Luke, not yet as strong, has a greater potential with the reasoning that he has less restrictions.;)

RooJay
06-07-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid


See, what I was getting at was that now since TPM has been made it doesn't make sense with the OT. Why would the Emperor give up Vader who has the highest midichlorian count, over Luke who can't even lift his own X-Wing out of the swamp. That ws my point.

The question I was asking was, what makes you think Vader has a higher midichlorian count than Luke?

Jonna
06-07-2002, 04:08 PM
I don't believe that it was ever mentioned anywhere for Luke.