View Full Version : Does anyone watch wrestling?
03-25-2002, 11:43 PM
I was wondering how many of you here watch wrestling? I haven't watched since my freshman year in college when it was a dorm floor event each Monday Night Raw. But tonight watching WWF's Monday night show, and I'm sad to say, but this is some of the best writing in TV today. I don't plan on becoming a regular watcher, but its amazing so many people avidly follow this stuff every week. I'm sure most know its "fake," but they still love it.
What ever happened to the WCW? They don't have a monday night show anymore?
03-26-2002, 12:18 AM
WWF purchased WCW. My wife and I both enjoy it most every week. It is a safe bet that most (allowing for the occasional foul up) if not all outcomes are predetermined.......kinda like the rest of the crap on television, but if you can move beyond that you might begin to appreciate the plot, characters, and athleticism present in professional wrestling. Glad that you enjoyed it Wolfwood. There is nothing to be sad about ;)
In college, some friends got every PPV free in the complex they lived in, so we got together about every other week to watch. So I kept up with the Monday shows too.
I currently don't really follow it, but I tuned in recently to see my favorite wrestler, Scott Hall :) I guess I'm just not interested too much anymore. No specific reason really . . .
03-26-2002, 12:42 AM
ive never really liked wrestling, ever since i learned it was fake long ago...
03-26-2002, 01:14 AM
Wow, so the WWF owns the WCW. Do they have WCW shows anymore, or did they just cancel all of them? I did notice that the nwo and some other big wcw stars are now with the WWF.
So does anyone compete with the WWF now? Buying out your competitors, isn't that sort of like a business participating in monopolistic business practices?
03-26-2002, 01:19 AM
No they don't have any competition currently, but IMO (in this situation) this is a good thing. The other wrestling shows simply could not produce adequate product. The talent pool is being put to better employment under WWF management.
I "met" Dale The Demon Torborg at a Kissfest last fall in Chicago, he was promoting a new venture . . . XWF ? How's that been doing? I've not heard anything about it . . .
03-26-2002, 08:49 AM
I watch RAW and SmackDown! every week. I have been a wrestling fan all my life, just like with Star Wars.
My favorite wrestler is HHH. I have been following him ever since he was in WCW. I am so glad he is finally back, but I must admit I would rather him be a "heel" (bad guy) than a good guy.
Last night he successfully defended his undisputed championship against Chris Jericho and Stephanie McMahon.
But WCW and ECW are things of the past, since Vince bought out both companies. Now there is no rival company in the wrestling business.
However several WCW stars have been signed, like the nWo, Booker T, Hogan, etc.
03-26-2002, 09:15 AM
I watch every week and love it. I like HHH to. I have even got my wife to watch it and she would kill me if she knew I told anybody. What she doesn't know won't hurt me.:D
03-26-2002, 09:36 AM
Hey Obi Don, do you remember when HHH debuted in the WWF?
He was the Greenwich Snob then. Alot different from now. He was the first person to have Sable as a valet.
03-26-2002, 10:40 AM
I absolutely loathe "professional" wrestling. It's the most boring thing ever put on TV next to golf and Antique Roadshow. Every match is exactly the same and every wrestler is pretty much the same deal. What is so lame about the whole operation is that everything has to be a grudge match and every wrestler has to talk the same. You can totally predict what's going to happen and what every guy is going to say, "OOH, I'm going to stomp the Rock for pulling off my hairpiece at Wrestlemania MDMCXVII."
It's a soap opera for guys, plain and simple. Oh well, at least it's only on UPN.
03-26-2002, 10:41 AM
Thats ok if you dont like it. We are all entitled to that.
But it also comes on TNN :)
03-26-2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Thats ok if you dont like it. We are all entitled to that.
But it also comes on TNN :)
Great! I don't have cable!;)
03-26-2002, 11:05 AM
There are some things I do not like about it, but I have liked wrestling for as long as I can remember.
Lately I have been getting tired with the storylines, but still HHH is back so I am glad for that. Wrestling wasnt as fun to watch for me during his absence.
03-26-2002, 11:29 AM
Yeah, I watch wrestling, but I'm sure that my 316 pretty much gave me away on that.
I've been watching since the summer of 1998. I never really watched it as a younger kid - I used to get aggrivated when wrestling would come on at noon. I used to ask why they would put that stuff on over more cartoons. But during the late 90's it really picked up and a lot of people were watching it, including my brothers and some friends at school. The latter would always ask if I saw wrestling last night, and I would always tell them no. So, finally, I decided to see what was up with it, and watched one of the Pay-Per-Views that my brother had ordered.
I was basically hooked from there, I didn't miss a minute of WWF programming. But right now, I can honestly say that I'm starting to wonder why I'm watching at all. Like last night, with that STUPID draft they did. And I really didn't like the way they brought the NWO into everything. It was intriguing, don't get me wrong, but they really ruined their entrance. When they came to the WWF at No Way Out, there was no threat established - they should have been beating every baby face (good guy) from 8 until 11. But no, they saved everything for Austin, and you knew that was coming anyway.
I'm still watching it, only because I want to see if they can make it better, more like it used to be. I honestly think that they need factions again. It was great with stuff like DX and the Coporation and Ministry of Darkness. Even the Invasion angle was pretty good because you had two giant factions: the WWF vs. WCW/ECW.
I don't know.....sorry for the rant :D
03-26-2002, 11:36 AM
I agree with you Lman. Like I said earlier, the storylines are really suffering right now. That draft was so stupid. I mean come on, do they really expect us to believe that the wrestlers on RAW will never appear on SmackDown! and vice/versa? I guess some of the viewers out there are that gullible. I actually know a guy who will only drink milk because he is a Kurt Angle fan. How sad.
I too miss the old days. Like when everyone hated the Rock, when Austin got arrested weekly, and DX (the old DX) ran over everyone. Those were the times when WWF was more interesting and fun.
03-26-2002, 01:25 PM
I'm glad to know there's some wresslin fans here. I've loved the "sport" ever since about 82, when guys like hogan and the sheik and andre the giant were big. I liked it a lot better in the mid 80s, with all of the intrigue between the managers, and the whole Hulkamania thing. I've got tons of old stuff on tape, and every once in a while I'll check out a classic match.
Anyone else watch in the 80's? My fave wrestlers are/were Leapin Lanny Poffo(later the Genius), Rick Rude, The Blue Blazer, Macho Man, Mick Foley, Iron Mike Sharp+ Barry O and Hulkster. There's a lot more on the list, but I figure you get the picture. Ric Flair's my fave of all time though. He's the weakest, shiftiest, lamest and, at the same time, GREATEST wrestler of all time. At his best, he can sell any opponent (even Hogan!!), and no one ever escapes when he falls to his knees and begs for mercy.
Oh , and Kamala the Ugandan Giant with Sika were a funny team too. Any of those BIG guys with no moves who couldn't deliver more than 10 words without real trouble- CLASSIC.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! (If you hadn't figured the woo out, there's the story! Wooooooo!!!)
03-26-2002, 01:40 PM
Im with you all the way man!! I remember watching Hogan, Macho Man, Andre the Giant, the Road Warriors, Dusty Rhoades,
Midnight Express, Rock N Roll Express, Ric Flair, Jesse Ventura, etc.
Man those guys are all legends!!
A good friend of mine is an amateur wrestler here in NC. He had to do a show this past Saturday night so we all went to see him perform. As we were walking out, Matt Hardy and Lita were standing there with him. Its no big thing to see pro wrestlers around here. I got another friend who is best friends with "The Hurricane." Do you know who that is Mabudon? He lives here in Raleigh, so he is somewhat a local celebrity. A really nice guy too.
03-26-2002, 01:46 PM
I think it's lame and a waste of time. Wrestling (of this nature) proves that Darwin's theory ceased functioning many years ago. Now that I've pi**ed off a few people... I'll go to another thread.
03-26-2002, 01:57 PM
Come on now, JediPartnr.
I was just starting to like you. :D
Jangy96, HHH is slated to appear on stage at some Ozzfest dates this summer to intro bands. :)
Mabudon, summer of '99 - I attended a washed up wrestling event and met Bundy, the Sheik, and the Bushwackers. Bundy was cool, and one of the Bushwackers licked my face (a friend got a pic of that :eek: ) The Sheik did his Persian club challenge, and my friend failed miserably . . . :D
03-26-2002, 02:08 PM
Jangy? I like that!! It has a nice ring to it.
HHH is by far my all time fav. His determination and skill set him apart from all the rest.
I must say he is alot better as a heel than a face though. His personality and demeanor are perfect for a bad guy role.
03-26-2002, 03:27 PM
Just don't talk really loudly or punctuate your sentences with sound effects that are to mimic crashing sounds... and we'll be just fine! :)
03-26-2002, 03:33 PM
I want you in a steel cage tonight for the title!!
03-26-2002, 03:43 PM
those sorts of words are gonna make people start to talk! ;) Hahahaha :D
03-26-2002, 03:52 PM
Ok, nevermind you can keep the title!! You win!!
03-26-2002, 06:10 PM
XWF? I guess if recognition is indicative of their success, then they must not be doing very well.
I got a few for ya:
The ULTIMATE WARRIOR.
Jake the Snake
George the Animal Steel
Junk Yard Dog
Ricky The Dragon Steamboat
Hacksaw Jim Dugan
I took my wife to the Mall of America and one evening on our way to the upper level with the bars I saw Bobby The Brain Heenan and his very large body gaurds (although they could have been wrestlers and I wouldn't have recognized them because there was a period of time that I didn't watch wrestling.....what was I thinking :crazed: ).
03-26-2002, 06:33 PM
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages. Degeneration X proudly brings to you it's WWF....
TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS OF THE WORRRRRLD....
The Road Dog, Jessie James
The Bad ***$, Billy Guns
The New Age Outlaws!!!!!
Yeah, those were the days, back when DX ruled, Foley was the ONLY Hardcore champ (EVER) and Austin 3:16 said "I just whipped you ***$!"
I still watch, but it's gone down hill a bit since then. WWF has a great opportunity to make it all great again. Hall and Nash together, no Hogan, no X-PAC just the "Wolf Pack" baby!
I still watch with less interest, and if I miss a night, oh well. As long as I'm in the loop somewhat, I'm happy.
03-26-2002, 07:25 PM
Do you remember the likes of Corporal Kirschner, Hercules Hernandez, the Killer Bees the Dream Team(Valentine & Beefcake), Tito Santana, and King Tonga? I'm a reborn Wrestling fan(took about 10 years off) but you can't beat the good old days.
03-26-2002, 08:31 PM
So when was the last WCW show? And what happened to the rest that weren't picked up by WWF?
Jedi Clint, have you seen Beyond the Mat? Wow, Jake Roberts was pretty rough :confused:
RIP Junk Yard Dog :cry:
03-27-2002, 04:20 AM
Yeah, That was really sad to see. He wasn't doing well at all.....and he was a HUGE star in the WWF. That segment along with the "I quit" match between Rock and Mankind were IMO the 2 most powerful moments in that film. When I watched that match, I NEVER thought Mic had 2 little kids and his Wife watching Rock repeatedly bashing him in the head with a chair......it was really hard to watch their reaction!
JYD IS DEAD?!?! When did that happen?
I can't remember when the last WCW show aired.....maybe early last year? The superstars that weren't signed refused to. Their contracts were honored and they are being paid not to work as I understand it.....but as soon as the contract is up, I am sure they will return to their chosen proffession. I think we will see several of them return in the not too distant future.
03-27-2002, 10:35 AM
The last ever WCW show was last April or May. It was WCW Monday Nitro. That was the night that WWF RAW and Nitro were a simulcast when Vince McMahon made his public announcement about buying out the WCW. That was when Shane McMahon showed up at Nitro to "shock" his father by buying WCW for himself. That is what led upto the whole WCW/ECW vs WWF and ultimately the Invasion Pay Per View last July. That whole escapade was a waste of time IMO. They should have just merged the 3 companies together like they have now. The whole angle about Shane and Stephanie trying to put Vince out of business was stupid, and the result was all the same. We have WCW, ECW, and WWF stars all competing on the same shows now.
03-27-2002, 11:50 AM
Since the WCW is no more, what happened to Goldberg?? I would like to see him against Stone Cold. I also remember The Ultimate Warrior, Texas Tornado...Giant Gonzalez...etc...
03-27-2002, 12:35 PM
I think Goldberg may still be under contract with WCW. You see when Vince McMahon bought out the WCW, alot of their superstars were still in their contracts, so basically when WCW went under they could sit at home and collect. Now Hogan, Hall, and Nash are out of their contracts, hence they are in WWF now.
I am not sure about the specifics of Goldberg's contract, but I imagine he has been approached by the WWF to start wrestling for them. He does need to have a match against Stone Cold. That would be a great main event for a pay per view.
03-27-2002, 12:38 PM
JYD died in a 1998 car accident :cry:
03-27-2002, 12:51 PM
Very tragic indeed. Lets not forget about Andre, Brian Pillman, and Owen Hart.
Sad to see talent of that calibre get cut off so short like it did with Pillman and Hart.
I have the ppv taped when Owen Hart got killed. How in the world could Vince McMahon allow that event to continue?
He shouldve just spit in the faces of all the Hart family. It was about the same thing. No respect at all.
Owen Hart died on my birthday, the only reason I missed that PPV was because I went to a concert that night. I was horrified by the news afterward. Very saddening :cry:
Blue Blazer & nugget forever ! :)
03-27-2002, 02:25 PM
I had ordered that PPV where Owen died, but I wasn't watching at the time that it happened. I was in another room watching QVC because they had some kind of Star Wars show on - kind of ironic, huh? My brother comes in and says: "They said that Owen Hart just died" and of course I didn't believe it, so I rushed in to see JR and the King talking about it. That was a very bad night for wrestling.
But moving on from that (cause it could get sort of depressing), WCW's last show was (I'm pretty sure) on March 26th of last year. It would have had to have been around there because WCW "superstars" (I put them in quotes because I've always hated WCW, lol) appeared at Wrestlemania 17. But it took a little bit before they began their "Invasion".
But the day that I went on WWF.com and saw, in big letters: WWF Purchases WCW.....oh, I laughed and laughed and laughed. That was truly funny because it really was only a matter of time. WCW was horrible, IMO, and most of their storylines they just copied from the WWF. However, I think that the WWF is finally utilizing some of these guys decently. Only problem now is that they have too many wrestlers, which I think is the reason they did this whole "Brand Extension" crap.
03-28-2002, 12:40 PM
I haven't been able to add my 2 cents(CDN,natch). Haggis, yeah, Hernandez was great. I also turned away, right about the time Skinner was popular(early 90's) and got back in with a vengeance in about 96, right when it started getting a bit silly again. Nothing these days will ever compare to the classic "jobbers" the likes of Barry O and his ilk IMO.
A couple of other RIPs (not really a sad note, but great talents that deserve a mention) Big John Studd (the whole Saturday Nights Main Event-greatest show ever- with the plotline of "who will slam studd" that started the rift between Mr wonderful and the hulkster STILL makes my eyes mist over thinking about it)
Gorilla Monsoon- his deadpan declarations and totally "wrestling scholar" approach, back when lord alfred, vince, gorilla and jesse alternated the commentating duties (although the king and JR are pretty funny when they want to be)
Ravishing Rick Rude- when he got the snakes wife airbrushed onto his tights-GOLDEN!! It's sad he's gone (I'm pretty darn certain, anyways)
Also RIP to (this dates me pretty good) Johnny K9, who died in some kind of violent conflict(details hazy)
Yeah, that beyond the mat is pretty hard to watch- like the behind the scenes bit with vince acting all weird and megalomaniacal, especially. Woooooooooooo!!!!!!
03-28-2002, 01:41 PM
Wrestling? 2 words. Bad Acting. Haha.
I have been a wrestling fan since 1980, and am proud to admit it. Thoguh I am not proud of all fans, I love the stuff.
I was a bigger fan of the NWA growing up as a kid, but I watched the WWF a lot too, since it wa the biggest game in town.
The following names bring great memories back to me:
The Road Warriors
Ole and Arn Anderson
Rock N Roll Express
Abdullah the Butcher
King Kong Bundy
Big John Studd
One Man Gang
Mr Wrestling II
Superstar Billy Graham
Billy Jack Haynes
Baron Von Raschke
Pistol Pez Whatley
Jimmy Boogie Woogie Man Valiant
Hollywood John Tatum
Adorible Adrian Street
Playboy Buddy Rose
George The ANimal Steele
Iron Mike Sharp
Bill and Randy Mulkey
The Sheepherders (not the lame-o Bushwhackers)
Cowboy Bob Orton
I could go on all night....so I won't......unless you want me to? :)
As far as Goldberg, he still has several years left on his contract with AOL Time Warner. He has gone on record many times that he is more than willing to sit on his keister and collect his multi-million dollar contract. I don't blame him either. However, I think wrestling is much better off without him, as he has publicly talked down the profession, and has no respect for it, or the other wrestlers. By the time his contract is over, I think everyone will have lost interest.
04-02-2002, 08:38 PM
What? No one mentions the "greatest Intercontinental Heavyweight Champion of all time!", The Honky Tonk Man?
Unfortunately, no one will ever surpass that unpresidented reign (year and a half?) because with a pay-per view every month, the titles change hands before anyone can build any credability.
Ricky Steamboat ruled, I also enjoyed th British Bulldogs and Bret Hart. I took a 10 year hyatus as well ,(someone else had mentioned this earlier in the thread) and within the last few years my interest has peaked again.
04-03-2002, 03:38 PM
Yeah, honky tonk man was great!! Remember when he was getting that big "recording contract"? That bit was killer. I also liked how his guitar was referred to as a "priceless family heirloom" by the brain and co, even though it was obviously a cheap plywood prop, evidenced every time it bust to flinders over somebodys head.
Did Jango96 mention the hurricane? I like that character a lot, the superhero wrestler is always a fine storyline.
Quite Longs post brought another thing to mind- remember TNT? How about the classic mini-shows, like "Pipers Pit"(possibly the funniest running joke EVER), The snake pit, The Flower Shop??
Are there any others I'm missing?? (brother love had one- oh yeah, does anyone else know if he turned into Paul Bearer? I think he did)
Oh yeah- remember all those crazy "training" shorts they showed, like Corporal Kirschener swimming through the pirhanna infested water with the Knife in his mouth?
Or when Sgt slaughter became best friends with saddam hussein?
04-03-2002, 03:54 PM
The Hurricane is a Raleigh, NC native, so it is no big deal to see him around here. In fact he is a good friend of a friend of mine.
Also the Hardy Boyz are around alot. Lita is also a NC native, so wrestling abounds here, like it does in Canada.
04-03-2002, 07:23 PM
Actually, mabudan, Paul Bearer was once known as Percy Pringle, and still does behind-the-scenes work for the WWF.
I don't know who Brother Love was before he was Brother Love, but he and Pringle are not the same.
04-03-2002, 08:08 PM
04-04-2002, 11:43 AM
Yeah, I knew someone would be able to help with that. Carl Dimarco also looks like one of the two. How bout beefcake and hogan? I've heard they are brothers (Savage and Poffo are for sure)
Jangofett96- tell the Hurricane to keep up the good work, he's a fine light heavyweight style wrestler, and his character is great!!
I gotta go, just got a shot to the midsection/ lower abdominals. WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
I;ve always thought Lita looked kind of trashy. Maybe it's those nasty tattoos or the bulldog like jaw. Not sure. Now Molly, mmm...Stacy....mmmm...Trish....mmmm....
Beefcake and Hohan aren't brothers, just good friends. Then again, everyone is "brother" to Hogan aren't they?
04-06-2002, 12:41 AM
IMO, Lita needs to do 2 things to improve her looks: cover up the tattoo, and change her wardrobe. I am sorry but the getup she wears is not very becoming. I know she is part of "team extreme" and all, but if she wore something a little neater she might be more presentable.
I was watching SmackDown! last night, and it appears as if Hogan is going to challenge HHH for the title at Backlash. Did anyone see if that was actually the case? I didnt catch the ending.
04-06-2002, 07:06 AM
QLD, I'm sorry but Molly is a little.....thick for my tastes.
I think LITA is pretty hot. I usually don't go for that whole look, but I think she looks sexy...tattoo and all.
Then again I've always been partial to red heads.
No biggie, I just like a little meat with my potatoes. She has junk in the trunk!
But with Lita, she to me, looks like a lot of the crossdressers I see on Maury or Cops. You know, the ones they bring on Maury to try and make you guess which one is a woman, and which one is a man. I hate those. Her facial features are just manly, she dresses like a 13 year old gang member, and that tattoo, well, it certainly doesn't help at all.
Just my opinion anyway. I like all shapes of women really, but, Lita just doesn't do it for me at all. The rest of the Divas I like. Well, I don't really like Terri much either. Her breasts are so fake they look like concrete. That, and her ribs, and something about her face. I dunno.
04-06-2002, 12:27 PM
Actually, Lita is the only "diva" I like. I've never been attracted to that blonde "manufactured" look like the rest of them are. Lita always seemed more real and down to earth. The rest look trashy and stuck up.
04-06-2002, 12:42 PM
Stacy Keibler is by far the best looking of the Divas if you ask me.
She is georgeous!! Her face is beautiful, and I think that is what really compliments her body. Alot of women can have a great body but the face can be lacking. I think Stacy is beautiful because she has the looks in her face and her body. When she comes out with the Dudleys and bends over on the ropes, man that is incredible!! You guys know what I mean!!
Stacy is my one of my faves for sure. I have liked her since she was in WCW. Her and Molly, those are my faves. Trish used to be, but she has been bumped down.
04-06-2002, 01:11 PM
I wish Sunny would have stayed in WWF. I liked Sable OK, but the whole thing they did with her persona there before she left turned me off. That whole thing about the women who wanna be her and the men who come to see her. How lame. Anyway Stacy is my fav, and I guess Molly and Trish would come in second.
Sunny showed up in WCW for a while when her boyfriend Chris Candido was there. She had put on a good 20-25 lbs. Although, I didn't mind it too much, I think most Sunny fans did. Plus, she has big time drug issues. I don't remember specifics, but she definately had a lot of problem with drugs, which is why she has been having employment problems.
04-06-2002, 04:15 PM
Well if she has a drug problem, she definately needs to get help. There is no room for that. It destroys lives and careers. Hopefully she will come around and get better.
So does anyone here get the monthly pay per views? Is anyone here ready to get Backlash in 2 weeks?
04-06-2002, 04:17 PM
Have you checked out our affiliate site WrestlingGuide.com ? There is an active forums for wrestling fans over there and you may find me over there. ;)
04-06-2002, 04:29 PM
Yes, I have checked it out before. A really nice site. Its ok if we discuss this here too, right?
04-06-2002, 07:16 PM
OK, I just checked it out and all I can say is:
That's just EERIE man!
In a scary kinda way! I mean like flashbacks, dejavu, didn't we just leave this party, kinda eerie!
I like it!:D
04-06-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by SirSteve
Have you checked out our affiliate site WrestlingGuide.com ? There is an active forums for wrestling fans over there and you may find me over there. ;)
Thanks Steve! I did not know about that site! It looks like an excellent place to find more info on the new total scan action figures. I recently got the Fatal Four Way - Edge figure (the first ever wrestling action figure I purchased)!
My brother and a coulpe of his/our friends are going to backlash in K.C., and I am a bit envious............ That's all right.....I'm going to Celebration 2 :p.
04-06-2002, 08:34 PM
I've been to live WWF Wrestling events before, trust me YOU are getting the better end of the deal!
04-06-2002, 08:45 PM
Celebration 1 wasn't that great IMHO. Why am I going to the C2 then? This one is indoors!!
I have been to 2 live WWF events, and they were ok. I would like to go to a live PPV or televised event.
04-06-2002, 09:01 PM
I did not go to C1, and I'm from Denver originally. I just didn't have the cash to fly home at the time.
I went to a Monday Night Raw here in Louisville right after Jericho won both titles.
I have never been to a convention before, Star Wars, Star Trek, or otherwise. I will be attending C2 this year.
My main reason for going is to meet the stars. And get autographs.
I think C2 will be MUCH better than C1 was, for one thing it's indoors, for another, we will see stars from both OT and the prequels (plus we will know more about them).
So I am stoked about C2!
02-06-2009, 02:48 PM
Slicker's Mom does not watch wrestling.
She doesn't like watching people do something if they are not as good at it as she is.
02-06-2009, 03:30 PM
No, but I might go and see "The Wrestler" with Mickey Rourke.
02-06-2009, 10:49 PM
I hear she showed Mickey some moves.
02-07-2009, 08:32 AM
I like Mickie James. Wonder if she'd get in the sack with a SW dude.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.