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View Full Version : Would the second DeathStar have exploded had the Emperor survived the fall?



Darkross
03-27-2002, 12:10 PM
I don't think that the deathstar would have exploded, since the Emperor was in control of the situation and it wasn't until he was distracted by the confrontation between Vader and Luke that the Rebels were able to penetrate the sheild generator on Endor. As the battle progressed, more and more of the Emperor's attention was being drawn away from the rebellion succeeding in their attack on the deathstar. Then once the Emperor was killed did the fighters penetrate the deathstar core and destroy the power generator.

stillakid
03-27-2002, 12:18 PM
Ah, no. The "Force" shouldn't (and wasn't) used as a all-in-wonder magic "pill" that could solve any problem that anyone had. Suggesting that the Emperor could essentially use magic to stop anyone, anywhere, from doing anything goes a little far with the intended spirit of the concept. The Emperor didn't "use" the Force to put himself into office. Even he needed to manipulate the wheels of politics in the grand tradition of elected officials. He didn't "will" the Rebellion to arrive at Endor...he had to plant information the old fashioned way. He had no more control over the space battle (using the Force) than anyone in the audience did.

Darkross
03-27-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Ah, no. The "Force" shouldn't (and wasn't) used as a all-in-wonder magic "pill" that could solve any problem that anyone had. Suggesting that the Emperor could essentially use magic to stop anyone, anywhere, from doing anything goes a little far with the intended spirit of the concept. The Emperor didn't "use" the Force to put himself into office. Even he needed to manipulate the wheels of politics in the grand tradition of elected officials. He didn't "will" the Rebellion to arrive at Endor...he had to plant information the old fashioned way. He had no more control over the space battle (using the Force) than anyone in the audience did.

I'm not suggesting that the force is an "all in wonder pill". But if you think about it...Ben Kenobi (who was one with the Force) helped Luke destroy the DeathStar. Maybe it wasn't all Luke afterall...I mean you have to admit that Han and Chewie arriving at the last possible moment...was a little too convenient!

Dryanta
03-27-2002, 12:25 PM
I agree with stillakid on this one to a point.Palpatine was not in controll of everything that was going on.The Death Star would have destroyed just the same.I still think the force itself was controlling the out come on the grand scale of the universe.Had to say it :D

stillakid
03-27-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Darkross


I'm not suggesting that the force is an "all in wonder pill". But if you think about it...Ben Kenobi (who was one with the Force) helped Luke destroy the DeathStar. Maybe it wasn't all Luke afterall...I mean you have to admit that Han and Chewie arriving at the last possible moment...was a little too convenient!

I don't think that Obi Wan "helped" Luke beyond suggesting that he "let go." In the grand tradition of the hero triumphing and following with Lucas's theme of man vs machine (showing that the power of humanity will always outweigh technology), Luke put away the machines and finally took the leap of faith to trust in his own abilities. In fact, even though the Force was a part of the story, it has little to do with Luke's victory. It's his own strength and perserverence that wins out.

Han and Chewy flying in from "out of the sun," well, yeah, that's Lucas taking some liberties, but that's just typical for his storytelling style anyway and has absolutely nothing to do with an internal story explanation for why the Falcon was there at that time. There are happy conveniences throughout the saga.

stillakid
03-27-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
I still think the force itself was controlling the out come on the grand scale of the universe.Had to say it :D

How so? What is the nature of "the Force?" Do you see it as a sentient being, or a "God" figure that keeps watch over all? I was under the impression that it was merely an energy field that people in this galaxy had somehow learned to tap into and manipulate. The idiotic introduction of Midichlorians into the mix adds a touch of "interference" into the paltry lives of those in the Universe (although humans in the Milky Way curiously don't have any), but since they are only parasites within an organism they shouldn't have much power to affect events outside their own sphere of influence. So if the Force is only unintelligent energy, and Midichlorians, while intelligent, are trapped within an organism, where is the Charlton Heston-like God that is controlling the fate of the Universe?

icatch9
03-27-2002, 12:43 PM
There is no evidence that anyone with the force can do the things you are suggesting. Vader who is more with the force than anyone couldnít stop Han and Chewy from blasting his wingmen in Star Wars.
The final sequence in Jedi has a very sing songy effect. The rebels are overcoming the imperial forces at the same time Luke is overcoming the dark side. They coincide, but they are not action reaction related. The emperor did not count on the Ewoks and they played a major role in the Battle of Endor. Even as all powerful as the Emperor is his is still overconfident (as Luke says). He may think he sees all, but in reality he does not. The rebels would have won that day with or without Luke. That too is part of the story. See, ordinary men, women, wookies, and ewoks overcame the battle-hardened empire. They were out gunned and out numbered, but they still won. This is one trend that Lucas likes to put in his movies (the little guy can win too) Think of Willow, and Indy vs. all the Germans. The good guys are always out matched, but they always win.

There is also no evidence that once you become ďone with the forceĒ you still have any influence over objects in the living world. Sure you can talk to people, and even have a human form, but thatís it. Never did Obi-Wan or Yoda really act upon an object. If you think Obi-Wan had any influence on Lukeís torpedoes going into the death star, then your imagination is very active. Luke is a good shot (ďI used to bulls eye wamp rats in my T-16 back home. Theyíre not much bigger than two metersĒ). So, this is something that he had practiced at home. But, a more likely reason is because Luke used the force to get them in the tube, not Obi-Wan.

Dryanta
03-27-2002, 12:49 PM
I agree with you stillakid.there is no way to rectify all of of these things because it's just a story with a lot of holes.Your point about trying figure out every little detail is correct it can't be done.Simple is best.There are alot of issues in the entire story that will really depend on our own personal outlooks on the real world as to how you would figure it all out.I think these discussions show us alot more about ourselves and others than it does about the story line.Just fun to try just the same.:)

icatch9
03-27-2002, 12:55 PM
How do you know that the humans in the Milky Way donít have the force? Maybe you or I donít have it, but someone could. Itís just a silly notion, but itís possible. Sure even if someone did have it they may not even know. It would be no different than Anakin not knowing he had the force. And he had the most ever. So what if some kid had it somewhere and didnít know it, would anyone really be able to tell one way or another. Just something to think about next time you see Vince Carter fly through the air.

Darkross
03-27-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by icatch9
If you think Obi-Wan had any influence on Lukeís torpedoes going into the death star, then your imagination is very active. Luke is a good shot (ďI used to bulls eye wamp rats in my T-16 back home. Theyíre not much bigger than two metersĒ). So, this is something that he had practiced at home. But, a more likely reason is because Luke used the force to get them in the tube, not Obi-Wan.

No I don't think that Obi-Wan helped Luke get the torpedoes in the Deathstar's exhaust port...I agree that Luke was a good shot. I just think that perhaps Obi-Wan's spirit or oneness with the force helped manipulate the situation...Vader missing Luke's ship and hitting R2D2 instead and how the Falcon arrived just in time. I don't know...these are just some things that I've always wondered about and I appreciate everyone's comments and views.

stillakid
03-27-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by icatch9
How do you know that the humans in the Milky Way donít have the force? Maybe you or I donít have it, but someone could. Itís just a silly notion, but itís possible. Sure even if someone did have it they may not even know. It would be no different than Anakin not knowing he had the force. And he had the most ever. So what if some kid had it somewhere and didnít know it, would anyone really be able to tell one way or another. Just something to think about next time you see Vince Carter fly through the air.

I was actually referring to Midichlorians, so when biologists find them in our blood, then we'll talk. :)

Concerning a "Force," I actually do believe in something like it, but I don't think that it exhibits all the fanciful properties that Star Wars attributes to it. That's a whole other discussion, one of which I'm still fitting the puzzle pieces together.

SithDroid
03-27-2002, 04:00 PM
The death star would have exploded regardless if the emperor had lived or not. The real question is, would Luke have been able to get off in time with Vader and the Emperor to deal with?

Darkross
03-27-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
The death star would have exploded regardless if the emperor had lived or not. The real question is, would Luke have been able to get off in time with Vader and the Emperor to deal with?

True...I too have often wondered if the duel lasted longer, would he have been able to get off of the deathstar in time. This brings me back to my original question...could the Emperor have somehow prevented the rebellion from destroying the deathstar even after the shield generator was down? I say he could have! Maybe not once the main reactor had exploded thus starting the chain reaction...but I think that he could have somehow intervened and prevented Wedge and Lando from destroying the main reator.

SithDroid
03-27-2002, 04:11 PM
How exactly? With Luke and Vader to deal with how could he have? Plus just because you are a Jedi/Sith doesn't mean that you are all powerful. Even Jedi/Sith get killed by non Jedi/Sith, so that proves something right there.

Darkross
03-27-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
How exactly? With Luke and Vader to deal with how could he have? Plus just because you are a Jedi/Sith doesn't mean that you are all powerful. Even Jedi/Sith get killed by non Jedi/Sith, so that proves something right there.

The same way that Luke used the force to help him destroy the first Death Star. The Emperor could have used the force to prevent Wedge and / or Lando from ever getting to the core!

This all opens up another can of worms... since if the Emperor knew that he would die on the deathstar...why on earth would he have given the rebellion the location of it? Maybe it was to draw Luke to the darkside...but if he did that after Luke destroying Vader, then they would have had to flee the Deathstar since by that time...as portrayed in the movie...Wedge and Lando were already on their way to the core. So what gain would there be if the Emperor turned Luke and then they both end up dead because of the destruction of the deathstar. See where I'm going with this...he would have gained nothing and the Sith would have been extinct along with the Jedi!

stillakid
03-27-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Darkross


The same way that Luke used the force to help him destroy the first Death Star. The Emperor could have used the force to prevent Wedge and / or Lando from ever getting to the core!

This all opens up another can of worms... since if the Emperor knew that he would die on the deathstar...why on earth would he have given the rebellion the location of it? Maybe it was to draw Luke to the darkside...but if he did that after Luke destroying Vader, then they would have had to flee the Deathstar since by that time...as portrayed in the movie...Wedge and Lando were already on their way to the core. So what gain would there be if the Emperor turned Luke and then they both end up dead because of the destruction of the deathstar. See where I'm going with this...he would have gained nothing and the Sith would have been extinct along with the Jedi!


You're putting waaaayyyyy too much responsiblity for what happened in the movie on "the Force." The Force merely aided Luke in destroying the Death Star. It didn't guide the torpedoes into the shaft and into the core. Luke just took aim and fired. Once his payload was away, it was out of his (and the magical Force's) hands.

The Emperor was out of control once he started in on Luke. He could barely control himself much less levitate a cockroach across the room. He (the Force) isn't really capable, as far as movie goers know, of manipulating distant people and/or things so to suggest that he could sit in his king chair and steer Wedge's X wing into the wall is silly.

And since when did the Emperor "know" that he was going to die on the Death Star? Your entire line of question begins with a flawed supposition. "Always in motion is the future," our little friend Yoda says. The Emperor was cocky and believed that he trapped the Rebellion right where he could wipe them out. He wouldn't have done that if he knew that it would ultimately lead to his own destruction.

SithDroid
03-27-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
He (the Force) isn't really capable, as far as movie goers know, of manipulating distant people and/or things so to suggest that he could sit in his king chair and steer Wedge's X wing into the wall is silly.

And since when did the Emperor "know" that he was going to die on the Death Star? Your entire line of question begins with a flawed supposition. "Always in motion is the future," our little friend Yoda says. The Emperor was cocky and believed that he trapped the Rebellion right where he could wipe them out. He wouldn't have done that if he knew that it would ultimately lead to his own destruction.

That is exactly what I was trying to get at. Thanks for backing me up stillakid.