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View Full Version : Please Sir Steve What is a Scalper?



icatch9
04-04-2002, 04:09 PM
This term is used willy nilly hear, and I just want to know once and for all. What is a Scalper? Please Sir Steve You are a man who knows a lot, so can you clue the rest of us in.

Thank you,

derek
04-04-2002, 05:25 PM
ask him if he has any episode 2 figure photos he's hiding.:)

sith_killer_99
04-04-2002, 06:17 PM
Well, it is a term that is used by many in a variety of ways.

IMHO, a SCALPER is anyone who buys figures (or some other merchandise) directly from a retailer (K-Mart, Wal-Mart, TRU, etc.) with the purpose of selling it (over retail price) in order to make a profit.

1. SCALPERS make life miserable because they deny collectors and kids reasonable access to SW merchandise. This is done by buying up all the newer or HTF items at local retail stores.

2. SCALPERS generate a secondary market filled with over-inflated prices. By over-inflated, I mean charging BIG $$$ for something that will be more readily available, for say $5.88, in 2 weeks. hehehe! This is done by buying up all the newer of HTF items at local retail stores.

IMO, anyone who buys direct from Hasbro can charge what they want.....it's called free enterprise. Places like Brian's Toy's get away with selling new figs for $25.00 a pop because people are dumb enough to pay that much for them!

But hey, Brian didn't deny anyone from going to Wal-Mart and paying $5.88! SCALPERS do!!!

I do not consider someone a scalper if they buy say, 3 of each new figure. Say, 1 to open, 1 for MOMC, and say 1 to trade for another new figure (or an older one).

Traders (honest ones anyway) are only interested in helping out fellow collectors as well as filling holes in their collections.

Just MHO;)

MTFBWY

Dryanta
04-04-2002, 08:06 PM
I'm not sir Steve but I really don't think you need him to provide a definition for you.
I personally think the above definition is about the best one you'll ever get.
You are right it can be a little confusing the way the word is used here at times.And most,I think,would agree that the definitions we've seen posted here from various dictionarys don't really speak to this issue clearly.My opinion anyway.I will forom now on refer to "them" as profiteers.Seems fitting and I think everyone gets the point.What do you think?

SirSteve
04-04-2002, 09:21 PM
scalper
\Scalper\ (sk[a^]lp"[~e]r), n.
1. One who engages in the reselling of something, such as tickets, at a price higher than the established value.

derek
04-04-2002, 09:26 PM
based on that definition, a legit wholesaler could be a scalper.:)
now how about those secret episode 2 toy pics?:)

SirSteve
04-04-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by derek
based on that definition, a legit wholesaler could be a scalper.:)

Many are...


Originally posted by derek
now how about those secret episode 2 toy pics?:)

How can you put a value on something not out yet? If one obtained E2 toys months ago and sells them for a high price, is there is something wrong with that?

Rollo Tomassi
04-04-2002, 10:28 PM
Off topic...but Sir Steve released a fake story about the Imperial Shuttle and bluffed FAO into revealing some info about their plans down the road. I submit that we start all sorts of fake stories about stuff we want to see and see who bites!:)


Back on topic...If Skiffs and Y-Wings were exclusively Target releases and online retailers are selling them for more than what Target had them priced at, that makes them a scalper in my book. If Hasbro is selling direct, then they are confused by the meaning of the word "Exclusive" methinks.

Beast
04-04-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
Back on topic...If Skiffs and Y-Wings were exclusively Target releases and online retailers are selling them for more than what Target had them priced at, that makes them a scalper in my book. If Hasbro is selling direct, then they are confused by the meaning of the word "Exclusive" methinks.
Yes, but you see..they typically arn't exclusives overseas, so the on-line retailers can get their accounts as overseas accounts, and then they can sell the exclusives, just like any other store. Sure it's a little shifty, but frankly I would rather pay 5-10 bucks more to gurantee I get one, and not have to hunt or resort to Ebay. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Dryanta
04-04-2002, 11:42 PM
That's a very good question SS.One I'm not sure I can really answer clearly.Is there anything wrong with that?Everyone is responsible for their own actions so if a persons impatience costs them money thats their problem right???
But the other side of the coin is this,do dealers or people holding an auction or what ever have a social responsibility to not take advantage of people who are uninformed or just impatient??Where is the line of reason between these two??
This whole scalping thing for me boils down to moral issue more than a technical one.If you are taking advantage of someone it's wrong.If you are emptying stores of product to try and corner the market for a Item(s) then that is wrong.
I think there are a enough cases out there that we all can agree are scalping.period.Some are not so black and white if we look at it honestly.They are to me anyway.Collecters should not profit from one another right?Well how do you define profit.See what I mean??what is excessive profit and does it depend on how the products were obtained? Is the value of an item really all that different from MSRP??Interesting term value .Isn't that a relative term as well??
See,It goes on forever and ever.It's a personal judgement call we each have to make.Some cases are a whole lot easier than others.

vulcantouch
04-05-2002, 08:53 AM
personally i think this one is (http://209.197.112.151/thread.html?dom=ss&TID=20&PID=1590), cuz it anticipates & deals with all the thorny gray area issues that threaten to confuse the issue :)
>toot toot< (own horn) :D

JEDIpartner
04-05-2002, 09:01 AM
He's the one with the Tomahawk... right? :rolleyes:

Scalpers are responsible for the shortage of Jango Fetts... :frus:

icatch9
04-05-2002, 09:34 AM
Thank you all for your posts. This seems to be the never-ending question, sort of like science vs. religion. But, lets not open that can of worms. I must confess that I knew what a scalper was before I asked the question. I wanted to get a concrete SSG definition of it. Still the answers are all very gray. We can all agree that forms of scalping are wrong, but it seems that some feel that versions of scalping are ok.

See Collectors and Scalpers are exactly like Batman and the Joker. ďYou created me, I created you.Ē Without collectors the Star Wars toy line would be dead. Thus, scalpers would have no reason to buy these toys to make money off them. Scalpers provide us with a way to get the figures we cannot find, thus fueling the hobby even more. Good, evilÖ dark side, light sideÖ black, whiteÖ collectors, scalpers. There cannot be one without the other. Anytime when there is something people want and are willing to pay money for, there will always be someone selling it. Money may be the root of all evil, but it makes this country go around. That is a simple fact. We will never stop, solve or accept the problem of scalping. We can cope with it, and try our best to hold to our morals and standards in this hobby. They may vary, but we have to learn to co-habitat.


Thank you all, and thanks to Sir Steve for posting I am sure your time on this web site is very valuable.

Bel-Cam Jos
04-05-2002, 11:33 AM
vulcantouch, your definition is, how should I say it...

...


...


...



...



...


...



...


...








... long? :zzz: :eek: :D ;)

I heard that Science must stay at least 500 yards from Religion. :rolleyes: If you buy "one more" figure/toy/playset/etc. to sell it for "a little profit" to SOMEONE YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW, that makes you a "speculator" (my preferred term, rather than scalper). In this scenario, you're buying it "just in case," or to make a bit extra. Now, if you have been asked if you see one, pick it up for me and I'LL PAY YOU BACK, that's not scalping. If you charge a "finder's fee," well, that's up to you (I don't do that).

Tomayto
Tomahto
Tomassi :p

SirSteve
04-05-2002, 01:09 PM
If you auction something and do not have a reserve price or start the auction at a high price and the item sells for a high price, does that make you a scalper? Not in my books. No one is making someone bid on an item.

SWAFMAN
04-05-2002, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by SirSteve
If you auction something and do not have a reserve price or start the auction at a high price and the item sells for a high price, does that make you a scalper? Not in my books. No one is making someone bid on an item.

I got sucked-in by this thread's gravity-well. Aaaghh!!!

The only thing I'd add to SS's scenario it, if you (the seller) had also included a "Buy It Now" option priced at whatever you had paid for the item yourself. Then you're Really doing all you can to avoid profting from the sale. If the bids go high after that, and you STILL feel some guilt, maybe you could use the profit to buy more SWag, and include some freebies in with that item's shipment, and toss an item in here and there when sending to other friends/collectors.

Dryanta
04-05-2002, 02:18 PM
Thanks for your definition Vulcan touch.

My point is really this it's a personal opinion issue in most cases.
In a auction the bidder places the Value.Period.Now as I said before,they are responsible for their own actions.
My other point is does the Seller in said auction have a social responsibility to an impatient or uninformed Buyer.
If I were the seller I wouldin the case of the uniformed.Not the same can be said for everyone.
I have to look at it this way,if a person is uniformed about future availibility or the actual or fiction rarity of an item it is MY(personal)
responsibi.lity to help them with some info.If they are just impatient then thats their problem.
taking advantage of ignorance and impatience are two different things in my book.
Again on the trading issue,I would not be comfortable profiting monitaryly from a trade.See what I'm saying.I would rather help for cost than make a profit.
It's too much of a personal opinion issue in certain cases.Buying from a store and deliberately adding to the rarity of an item and then raising the cost is wrong.So is buying them from these peopleIMHO.You are cutting your own throat.I could not buy something rare and profit from it even in a trade situation because dollars to donuts scalpers helped create the rarity of the item.See what I'm trying to say.I wish I were as articulate as most here.Sorry icatch9 didn't mean to derail the thread from your original request of SirSteve

icatch9
04-05-2002, 04:02 PM
Hey don't worry abou it. The more opinons the better. I think Sir Steve made his point and it's interesting to see what everyone else thinks in a civilized mannor:). Some post hear have the compasion that I wish more people would have. I however do not share that compasion. If some guy is stupid enough to buy a Ketwol from me for $10.00 then bring him on. I guess I do not have a heart when it comes to stupid people. That is what makes ebay so good. You dont' have to look the people in the eye. I personly like ebay. It is an easy place to get things that you missed at the store. I have found that most things are avalable there, but if you don't like the prices, then you don't have to buy it. Very simple and good place to do business. If a person is un-informed about such things as value and rarity then they will soon learn. Just like we all did. Paying to much for something and later finding out it wasn't worth that much. That will make that person want to learn real quick. If anyone would ask me "is this rare" or "will this be worth anything" I will be totally honest. Even in an auction I never tell fibs and say something is rare if it's not. Like Sir Steve said, the auction only goes as high as the highest bidder. It is out of the sellers hand after he lists it.

sith_killer_99
04-05-2002, 07:35 PM
I tend to agree with Sir Steve.

If I manage to get something new 2 months before it's original release and I sell it on ebay, who cares?

Hasbro may get mad at me for breaking the street date, so Hasbro may care. But other than that, who do I hurt.

If some idiot is willing to bid $300.00 for a figure that will be warming pegs in 2 months then that's his loss!

A fool and his money are soon parted!

MY problem comes when someone buys all the Jango Fetts, from Wal-Mart or some other retailer, and posts them on ebay.

We all know the types. You go check out the list of their auctions and it reads like this:

Jango Fett Preview
Jango Fett Preview
Jedi Star Fighter
Jango and Clone Preview
Jango and Clone Preview
Jango and Clone Preview
Jango Fett Preview
Jango Fett Preview
Clone Army (get 10 Clone Troopers)
Jango and Clone Preview

THESE are the REAL bad guys.

Dryanta
04-05-2002, 08:02 PM
For what it's worth I really am pleased to see we all seem to be very much on the same page with this issue.It's an important one for all of us and the future of the hobby

derek
04-05-2002, 11:05 PM
WOW! i got a reply from sir steve!:)

personally i don't have a problem with so-called "scalpers".
i myself don't "scalp" toys and i don't buy from those who do.
but i am a capitalist and i honestly don't accept the concept of scalping. i believe in a free market system, and as long as force or fraud is not involved, i have no complaints. a fair price is whatever two concenting individuals agree to pay.

sir steve,

i was referring to episode 2 product info you may have. i love your web site, i visit it first every day, and usually 3 times a day, but rebel scum has really been scooping you lately.:)

vulcantouch
04-08-2002, 03:01 PM
-as dice clay might say, that's what She said last night- NDOISH! :D

derek: "i honestly don't accept the concept of scalping. i believe in a free market system. . . a fair price is whatever two concenting individuals agree to pay"
-so you think "fair price" is definable while "scalping" is not? :rolleyes:
is not one of the foundations of a free-market belief system that one Earns one's way? that one profits via contributing Something to society? and if one does not, does one not deserve Condemnation as a Parasite by those who believe in the free market?
what do scalpers provide that does not already exist? do they manufacture? do they maintain wholesale distribution infrastructures? do they provide srp retail outlets?
they do none of these things. these are Toys we're talkin about. good cheap fun, or at least they're supposed to be. how vile to inject profiteering and hypercommodification into such a sphere. these sleazy conventions should be left in the diamond trade where they belong :p
so maybe scalpers make it possible for some guy in siberia to obtain a rarity he otherwise couldn't. is this supposed to qualify as a legitimate service? why should it? it happens at the expense of all other collectors. maybe said "siberian collector" should accept that in this life one makes Choices, and that if one Chooses to live hundreds of miles away from regular retailers, one should forsake the kinds of collecting more naturally pursued in by urban dwellers.

ic9: "Scalpers provide us with a way to get the figures we cannot find"
-they do no such thing, cuz without scalper actions, the limited number of extant figures would still get into the hands of collectors. the only difference is Which collectors would get them, and whether a scalper would profit in the process.
you are quite right to perceive an interlocked relation between scalpers & collectors. however, it's not exactly ďYou created me, I created youĒ symbiotic, as one (the collector) Could exist without the other (the scalper) :)

"I do not have a heart when it comes to stupid people"
-the issue isn't having a heart for stupid people, it's thinking clearly about what's what, and propogating that clarity across the collector community, so as to villify and minimize a practice that needlessly makes things worse for all collectors.

ic9: "It is out of the sellers hand after he lists it"
dry: "In a auction the bidder places the Value. Period"
-oh. i guess that's why all my af-collectin pals have been able to score their e-wings offa ebay for $1 just like they wanted to :rolleyes: you're both absolving the seller of culpability far too quickly.

dry: "does the Seller in said auction have a social responsibility to an impatient or uninformed Buyer"
-posing the question this way obscures the issue, which is not about "social responsibility", or what people Can do, but what they Should do, and what is the proper label for their actions when they do otherwise :)

ss: "No one is making someone bid on an item"
-indeed; but even if no one bids, an Attempted scalping has still occured. such an action should be known by its rightful name-
vt

Dryanta
04-08-2002, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the response vulcantoch.
I am not absolveing the seller to quickly.What I am trying to say is the buyer needs to take half of his or her own responsibility.They are establishing their personal value for an item.They do so by placing a maximum bid.No way around it.I guess I should have been more clear.
If said buyer in Siberia Has to either move or give collecting then maybe your Action fleet friends need to make hard choices as well.See what I'm trying to say?If things are hard to come by for the reason you chooose to live a rural area then move,pay the price,or give it up?
If you live in an area where there are a lot of scalpers or other collectors then move,pay the price,or give it up.Right?
You are right I should have worded it differently.It is a matter of should.That's what I meant.But I disagree that it convolutes anything.I think everyone knew what I was trying to say.
Scalping is not illegal in this sense(?) so for me it is a moral issue.
Oh well,I think this.If no one buys from them they will eventually go away.Again I wish I were more articulate.Sorry If I'm causing confussion about my ideas.

icatch9
04-08-2002, 04:05 PM
Of course you are not going to get an E Wing for a buck. Regardless of what the majority of collectors think or anyone for that matter the entire thing comes down to money. These things may be toys, but they are worth something. So if I find an E Wing for $1.97 at TRU (which some people did), I am not going to give it to you for that price just because you want it too. I know the value of it, and thatís is what Iíd give it up for. If I am lucky enough to find such a rare item at a store, then that is my reward for going. Itís dumb luck of course, but thatís what gets most of us through collecting. Iíve had a lot of dumb luck in my day, and I hope I always do.

You are going to have to pay for an item that is valuable and or rare. It that simple. It is no different than going into the bank and trying to trade a five-dollar bill for a twenty-dollar bill. An even trade right? They are the same size and weight, they look almost the same. Why not a trade? Because they are assigned a different value. Just like you will never trade an AF X Wing for an AF E Wing. Value and money is what this whole hobby comes down to. Maybe not for you, maybe not for me, and maybe not for anyone on this web site, but for a lot of people Star War toys are ďall about the BenjaminsĒ. We need to realize that and accept it in order to keep our sanity when it comes to collecting.

Darth Cruel
04-08-2002, 06:12 PM
My opinion is that SirSteve gave us the best possible definition of a scalper. And my opinion is also that scalpers are not the cause of the secondary market prices, nor are they responsible for creating the secondary market. The credit for that goes to those of us (yes I have bought stuff at Frank-n-Scalpers) who chose to pay prices over the shelf value and who will go to these scalpers to get them.

I am glad to say that I have been tested and have passed the "Am I a Scalper" test. I noticed that the local Wal-Mart put out all of the EII figures way early. I later read that these figures were going for ignorant prices on Ebay. I later went to the same Wal-Mart and didn't even consider buying them all (and there were lots) and scalping them on Ebay. It now appears that Wal-Mart has taken what they had left off of the shelves. Not a problem though, as I am not impressed with the figures anyway.

derek
04-08-2002, 07:01 PM
vulcan touch,

thanks for the socialist view of economics.:) and don't say it's not socialistic. "contributing to society" is the basis of socialism. capitalism (a free market) is simply trading value for value and involves nothing like making the world a better place or being a valuable contributing member of society. those are all bi-products of capitalism, plain and simple. if someone want's to run down to wal-mart and buy all the toys or fishing poles and sell them for a profit, i have no problem with that. i just won't buy from them if i think the price is un-resonable. i choose not to trade one value, u.s. currency, for another. plain and simple. a scalper in no way can be a parasite because he rightly purchased the toys. he didn't aquire them by the sweat of the laborers. they are his property to do with as he wishes.

let's be honest here. the ill will against so called scalpers is basically an inmature attitude a child would possess. "i want my toys, concert tickets, tickle me elmo, ect.. and i want it now" state of mind.

vulcantouch
04-10-2002, 12:33 AM
and don't say it's actually winona and not lfb, cuz i Know my brunetorexic celebabes :kiss:

"don't say it's not socialistic"
-why should i? being 100% pro-capitalist and 0% anti-socialist (or, for that matter, 100% socialist and 0% capitalist) would be, uh- what were the words you chose? ah yes: "basically an inmature attitude a child would possess" :p an adult mind grasps that both systems have their merits and their drawbacks, and that it's just common sense to mix them a bit, both in practice and in ethics, to help mitigate said downsides :cool:

"'contributing to society' is the basis of socialism"
-you're not goin deep enough; the basis of socialism is actually an overly idealistic view of human nature. which is why socialism fails in its pure or mostly-pure forms.
pure capitalism is for animals. pure socialism is for saints. humans lie somewhere in between. so should our economic systems. and in fact, they do; sliding tax scales, economic assistance for the poor etc.

"a scalper in no way can be a parasite because he rightly purchased the toys. he didn't aquire them by the sweat of the laborers"
-i'm not sure what all that "rightly purchased" or "laborer's sweat" stuff's got to do with this issue, but: one who profits from a cycle while contributing nothing to said cycle is a Parasite, nothing more and nothing less.
i am still waiting to hear how scalpers do Not fit that definition :zzz:

"they are his property to do with as he wishes"
-no one is questioning that, least of all me. but this isn't about rights, it's about What's Right.

"the ill will against so called scalpers is basically an inmature attitude a child would possess. "i want my toys, concert tickets, tickle me elmo, ect.. and i want it now' state of mind"
-you obviously don't know This antiscalper very well; as many on the mm forum can attest, i've gladly waited years to score items for terms acceptable to me, and risked not being able to get them at all, rather than allow myself to get scalped :)
scalping doesn't offend my sense of impatience. it offends my sense of waste. it creates difficulty and nothing comes of it.

ic9: "if I find an E Wing for $1.97 at TRU (which some people did), I am not going to give it to you for that price just because you want it too"
-well golly, in that case, maybe I ain't in no hurry to do You no favors neither :p

"It is no different than going into the bank and trying to trade a five-dollar bill for a twenty-dollar bill"
-really? you see No difference? :rolleyes: imo the assignment of universal monetary numbers to our supercool toys is something only manufacturers and srp retailers have any business doing. anyone else considering doing same should go out & get a Real job :D

"for a lot of people Star War toys are 'all about the Benjamins'"
-indeed; and the proper term for those people is Scalper :dead:

"you will never trade an AF X Wing for an AF E Wing"
-probably not, but if i didn't want it i might trade the ewing for, say, a tie-d; if you read my link above you already know my definition covers this circumstance :)
and if i couldn't do an equitable trade for it, i Would sell it for the exact price i paid. why? cuz if i was lucky enough to come across a $2 ewing, knowing it was worth much more, i know Someone out there would be a lot more thrilled to get it for $2 than me. so by re-selling it to them for That price (Not giving it to them; after all, i ain't no charity :p ), not only do i spread the good karma, i also blow their mind and make me a new, knowledgeable pal who'll be sure to remember me & keep an eye out in case they ever find something rare I seek.
improbable you say? read thru the micromachines forum (old And new) for tales of our 4-year-long history of exactly this kind of exchange :)

"to keep our sanity when it comes to collecting. . . You are going to have to pay for an item that is valuable and or rare. It that simple"
-it is? i can think of other options, all of which have not only proven successful for me time and again, they also strike me as much Saner options than gettin scalped:
*trade rare items you don't want for rare items you do
*hold out for acceptable terms of purchase (my personal standard is srp or less)
*be a man and do without; idunno about you, but i already got plentya junk to keep me happy :D

dry: "If things are hard to come by for the reason you chooose to live a rural area then move,pay the price,or give it up?
-see answer above for add'l options :D

"maybe your Action fleet friends need to make hard choices as well"
-assuming they live out in the boonies, you're right, perhaps they should. but in most cases either they don't live out in the boonies, or they've had someone like me to assist them get these things without charging a "finder fee" or whatever else scalpers like to call their profits :)

"Sorry If I'm causing confussion about my ideas"
-apologize? to me? nonsense, i should Thank you, cuz i welcome any opportunity to hash out & clarify this issue :D spekin of which:

"for me it is a moral issue"
-not for me; cuz what morals are to laws of god, ethics are to laws of man. not being personally acquainted with many deities myself, i concern myself only with ethics- in this case, collector ethics :)
vt

derek
04-10-2002, 01:22 AM
vulcan touch,

actually it is a winona ryder photo, but after i shrunk it down, i can see the laura flynn boyle resemblence.:)

as to a defence of capitalism, or a discussion of the nature of man, may i direct you to ayn rand's books "capitalism, the unknown ideal" or "the virture of selfishness"?

if you so desire, check out www.aynrand.org

SirSteve
04-10-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by derek

sir steve,

i was referring to episode 2 product info you may have. i love your web site, i visit it first every day, and usually 3 times a day, but rebel scum has really been scooping you lately.:)

I won't go into details because unless you are behind the scenes running a site, most people don't understand and think they are just pictures but when they are pictures copyright Hasbro and they did not have the rights to use them and says they will sue (ironic seeing they have been sued before but settled out of court) because I am using them, that's another story.

Dryanta
04-10-2002, 01:56 AM
Hey Steve,
could you please clarify for me?The other guys threatened to sue you over Hasbro property?
I really don't get it.is there that much money in fan sites to motivate this kind of thing,or is it just bragging rights or something?I really don't understand any of this mindset.aren't we all supposed to fans of the same thing?
And scalpers are bad

QLD
04-10-2002, 01:57 AM
I heard that Sitting Bull was a scalper.......Oh nevermind.

icatch9
04-10-2002, 10:11 AM
Yet again a simple thread asking what a scalper is has gotten out of hand. Now us toy collectors are debating capitalism vs. socialism, and manís law vs. Godís law. Wow, talk about some deep issues. Right or wrong. Just or unjust. None of it really matters. It has happened, itís happening, and itís going to happen. You canít stop it anymore than you can stop the suns from setting.

Vulcan touch, I applaud your moral values. Seriously, way to go. There needs to be more people like you. If you have helped out fellow collectors with a great deal on rare items then you are a great person.

To the rest of us who have made a buck or two off a Star Wars related item, way to go. Not everyone has the savvy or willingness to turn these things into a profit. We should be proud of ourselves for using our skills in a way, which helps us out. While I was in college I didnít have much money. So, I supported my collection through the sale of certain items. To me none where that hard to find or even that valuable, but a buck hear and two bucks there really starts to add up.

I am like both factions of collectors. I think itís great when collectors help people out for no reason, but I also think itís great when a guy can make a buck or two.

So a big way to go to every type of collector. Rest assured, we may not like how others operate, but we all have to realize that none of itís going to change. So, get used to it, and find something less argumentative to discuss.

derek
04-10-2002, 06:51 PM
icatch9,

this is the 2nd time i recall you encouraging us NOT to discuss issues in a DISCUSSION FOURM. why come here if not to discuss issues? personally i find it a little more interesting when everyone may not agree on a particular subject, not just for the sake of disagreement, but to exchange ideas. whether it may be a trivial debate over natalie portman's acting ability with jargo, or discussing the nature of man and which social system best fits his nature with vulcan touch, i'm glad these discussions can take place.

we don't live in a vaccum. i know this is a star wars site, but there is just so much one can say about pre-posed action figures. while i may disagree with vulcan touch, i enjoy the discussions.:)

sir steve,

what does the law say regarding news organizations using copyrighted photos? can't they use them as long as the source is credited? some may call this, or rebel scum fan sites, but actuallty they are news sites, just as legit as CNN or MSNBC's news sites. just because you don't report political news does not make it any less relevant.

vulcantouch
04-11-2002, 12:54 AM
in that spirit: ewwww, derek cited ayn rand :p despite what her acolytes like to believe, her brand of warmed-over nietzscheism leaves much to be desired, namely a grasp of the concept that It Takes All Kinds. in her view only the strong are valued. in reality, life doesn't function (and is damn colorless) without the strong, the weak, the excellent, the mediocre, the warm, the cold, the tasteful, the vulgar, the straightforward, the devious etc :) her outlook lacks a certain subtlety, it's not VersaTile enough :zzz:

ic9: "You canít stop it. . . none of itís going to change"
-the first part's right, but i have observed that in explaining my position others have been persuaded to change their ways. thus, i do not seek to eliminate scalping but simply to reduce it, to throw light upon it, so that it is seen more clearly for what it is :)

"I applaud your moral values. . . you are a great person"
-actually, as people go i'm as mixed a bag as anyone. i too pick my battles, and one battle i pick is being an ethical collector :cool:
i am, if anything, an amoral sort. i'd say the closest i come to a moral sense is a certain distaste for excess or waste. but i'd say that's based more on pragmatism and an aesthetic sense rather than a moral one.

"I didnít have much money. So, I supported my collection through the sale of certain items"
-my code of collector ethics says that if one can't afford to collect without makin unearned profits off fellow collectors, maybe one should stick to more affordable hobbies like, say, readin a book :Pirate: after all, you don't see projeks-dwellers collectin faberge eggs do ya? :eek:
vt

derek
04-11-2002, 08:38 AM
vulcan touch,

so let me see if i understand this:
because ayn rand's philosophy does not exalt the weak, ugly, lazy or unintelligent, you are willing to disregard her works?

you seem to be familiar with her ideas. if so, then even you must admit that it is the men of intellect and ability that truly make the world go 'round. without those "men of mind" these so called colorful and interesting people would not stand a chance. they are the true parasite, if anyone is in this discussion. it is these people who bring nothing to the table, but reap the benefits of "the strong".

and i like how you used the term "the strong", as opposed to the men of ability. i bet your next agruement will be how these strong exploit the weak, thus your arguement that capitalism is for animals, when in reality is is just the opposite. animals are uncapable of reason. they have no need for a social system. they aquire what nature requires by sheer brute force.

man on the other hand, is capable of rational behavior. if he is to reside in close proximity with others, it is in his long term best interest to trade with others as opposed to taking from or sacrificing himself as your code calls for.

icatch9
04-11-2002, 09:52 AM
I started this forum to ask the expert (Sir Steve) what exactly a scalper is. Many many people have put their two cents in, and that's great. I have suggested this topic to be subsided because all to often these things turn to ugly fights, and get closed down. I didn't start this forum to start a fight. But, you guys go on discussing your philosophy and such, and I'll be over hear.

Vulcantouch, I do not take to kindly to your comparing me to a person who lives in public housing. I worked my ***$ off in college and I am proud that I was able to continue my hobbies by using my intelligence. I do not care if you approve of my methods.

vulcantouch
04-11-2002, 01:05 PM
-if that's true, why should you care if i say your described actions constitute scalping? :rolleyes:
maybe some here wouldn't take kindly to your implication that there's somethin inherently insulting about havin an analogy drawn between oneself and a public housing dweller. (for all you know some of them work their azzes off too :p ) but so what? derek's right, you needa lighten up & keep in mind that frank discussions are not about "taking kindly to" or "caring if others approve of" one's pov. they're about expressing oneself clearly and tolerating others' opportunity to do the same :p

derek: "you used the term 'the strong', as opposed to the men of ability"
-indeed; by "strength" i mean to differentiate between what you call "sheer brute force" (armies, bouncers etc), and other kinds of "ability", such as deftness, shrewdness etc. what a "weak" person may lack in strength he may make up for in pleasantness. or dependability. or perspective. or patience.

"you must admit that it is the men of intellect and ability that truly make the world go 'round"
-i admit no such thing; again, i say it takes All kinds to make the world go round. the strong depend on the weak, the decent depend on the sleazy etc. because some virtues are mutually exclusive, no human embodies all virtues. rand doesn't acknowledge this. she thinks only virtues that are directly related to and compatible with overt, raw power count as "real" virtues. it's not that she doesn't Exalt the weak, it's that she has a distaste for their very Existence. lucky for her that, despite that distaste, there were plenty of those "weak" around to sew her clothes, cook her meals, paint her walls, nurse her illness, proofread her books etc. a restaurant patron who doesn't recognize the importance of his waitress is apt to unknowingly ingest a lot of her spittle, and rightly so :eek:
rand's philosophy's a humorless, lumbering mastodon, a teutonic solid with a self-important manner that likes to stomp the world flat for its own ease of movement. i prefer my philosophy to be like them impish little protomammal leemur things: it's not out to reshape the world. its antics may give you a laugh at times, but what it lacks in imposing imperiousness it makes up for by being quick, clear-eyed, able to infiltrate small crevices; a philosophy that endures because it adapts and gets the job done. after all, the leemur was able to survive the ice age; the mastodon was not :dead:

"your next agruement will be how these strong exploit the weak"
-everybody exploits everybody, and overall that's how it should be; but some exploitation is equitable and collaborative and some is parasitic and one-sided. (of course, in this world most is some combination thereof.) in the collector world, parasitic exploitation's proper name is "scalping".

"to trade with others as opposed to taking from or sacrificing himself as your code calls for"
-"sacrifice himself"? as i said, i ain't no charity :Pirate: i Do trade with others- i take from and give to others. i'm not sure i see the distinction you're making here.

"animals are uncapable of reason"
-which is why they're so suited to the law of the jungle, i.e. nature's version of pure capitalism-
vt

icatch9
04-11-2002, 01:35 PM
What does any of this have to do with Star Wars?

derek
04-11-2002, 05:53 PM
icatch9,

technically this is the GENERAL area of these forums. all topics are welcome. perhaps you should of sent sir steve a private message so your threads won't be hijacked by philosophical terrorists:D .

you started a thread about scalping. well, like it or not there are philosophical implications in every aspect of our life. philosophy actually has real world implications:it's not just reserved for those in the ivory tower.

the basic objection to "scalping" is rooted in the myth of fairness, which collectivists like vulcan touch subscribe to. this myth states that everyone should be given a fair chance at anything they aspire to, whether it be buying a toy or starting a business, or getting an education, etc...and they, who claim to advocate peace and fairness have no problem sending thugs with guns out to level the playing field.

in reality, so called "scalping" is just the free market at work, individuals trading value for value. this may prevent some from getting their toys, or make them the scourge of the on-line toy collecting community, but there is nothing un-ethical about it as long as force or fraud are not involved.

vulcan touch,

the "strong" in no way need the "weak". the weak have nothing to offer but mere convenience. the "men of mind" could easily survive without the "weak", though they may have to iron their own shirt.

the "weak" however, desperately need the men of ability. without them, the masses would still be in a virtual and intellictual dark age. instead they despise the very ones who provide them with the very substance to sustain their lives when they should just say thank you.

there is nothing humerous about philosophy, and there shouldn't be when dealing with issues of life and death, freedom and slavery, rational self interest and altruism.

you may not want your philosophy to reshape the world, but unknown to you, it has, and not for the better. your philosophy, collectivism, has given rise to adolph hitler, soviet russia, and the idea that self sacrifice is noble and just. i'm not saying you are a nazi, but the same philosophy that led hitler to declair that the individual is worthless and that society is everyting, is the same philosophy that says it is O.K. for the american government to force it's citizens to sacrifice their property and lives for their fellow citizens.

the "law of the jungle" is not "nature's capitalism", the initiation and use of force is. a capitalist system bars the use of force. individuals deal with one another as free traders. i again suggest you read "capitalism, the unknown ideal" as you have apparently been brainwashed by whatever books or professors you have been influenced by regarding what capitalism really is.

vulcantouch
04-11-2002, 08:05 PM
derek: "your philosophy, collectivism, has given rise to adolph hitler, soviet russia. . . the same philosophy that led hitler to declair that the individual is worthless and that society is everyting"
-hey ss, does the rolling-eyes emoticon come in any Bigger sizes?? no? oh well then, i'll just take a double-order please: :rolleyes::rolleyes:
is anyone else wondering if derek meant to address some Other vulcantouch around here? damned if i can much relation of above statement to Anything i've said :confused:

"this myth states that everyone should be given a fair chance at anything"
-unable to thus far exploit any chinks in My mandalorian armor, you prop up a False suit of armor, Claim it's mine and flail away at That.
i must admit, Quite an amusing solo pantomime you've concocted; don't let Me interrupt :p
in the context you cite (people's starting points), i've never concerned myself with "should" cuz the fact is people Don't have a fair chance at things. some start out rich, smart, purty, while others start out poor, dumb & fuh-fuh-fugly. such is the way of nature, and my taoist nature accepts that.
i move simply to bring clarity, to call the unearned, unproductive and excessive takings of advantages by their actual name, to subvert such dishonesty whenever possible.

"the 'men of mind' could easily survive without the 'weak'"
-yeah, never mind that all of human history offers not a single example of them actually Doing so. but i spose that's just cuz those pesky Weaksters are so numerous they just keep gettin in the way, right? :rolleyes:

"they may have to iron their own shirt"
-THAT'll be the day :p though they may make an occasional, calculated token show of rollin up their sleeves to show they're "down2earth regular folks", overall "men of mind" have necessarily depended upon those beneath them on the heirarchy for their basic needs.
newton was a lord. aristotle was, surprise surprise, an aristocrat. That is the rule of history. without a broad base of support, a pyramid's apex is just an oddly-shaped but otherwise unremarkable stone.
the notion that a person can embody true competence in divergent spheres is a self-exalting myth of the middle class to assure themselves that, since they can do everything Kinda well, none are better than they :rolleyes: to maintain this comforting claptrap, a recognition of True excellence is lost, while those who pander to said claptrap make a killing. hence the middle class' lauding of ice skating instead of ballet, whitney houston instead of maria callas, norman rockwell instead of picasso, joseph campbell instead of margaret mead, stephen hawking instead of einstein.
and ayn rand instead of frederich neitszche :p

"they should just say thank you"
-perhaps also lick their boots, fluff their pillows and answer their every command with "yowzah"? :rolleyes: pray tell, exactly where do you happen to place Yourself on the sacred randian heirarchy? are you a "man of mind", my liege? or are you somewhere beneath that scale, but nonetheless have a "healthy" respect for your superiors and said heirarchy as a whole?
if the latter, you'd make a splendid butler (and apologist) for said betters. perhaps you wouldn't find such a role overly confining. i know i would.

"they, who claim to advocate peace and fairness have no problem sending thugs with guns out"
-you aren't tawkin about Me again, are you? since when did This thug ever "advocate peace"? :evil:

"a capitalist system bars the use of force"
-where'd ya get That one? pure capitalism takes no position whatsoever on "the use of force", unless you're tawkin Economic force, about which it declares "the strong shall win". Not "the most efficient shall win", "the just shall win" or the Otherwise meritorious shall win.
the exaltation of one virtue at the expense of all others is simple-minded.

"you have apparently been brainwashed by whatever books or professors"
-i have? golly, which books or professors might those be? one thing's for sure, it wasn't ayn rand, right? :D

"there is nothing humerous about philosophy, and there shouldn't be when dealing with issues of life and death, freedom and slavery, rational self interest and altruism"
-forgive my laughter, but there's Everything humorous about that statement :D
a healthy grasp of paradox, and therefore a sense of humor, lies at the heart of every sane, usable philosophy. if one can't laugh at oneself, one's beliefs and everything else in this life, one is truly laughable :D
vt

Dar' Argol
04-11-2002, 08:15 PM
Uh guys, derek, vulcan touch. I understand you love to debate over philosophical ideals and you 2 could most likely go on for days. I respect that. There are few too many people that have the mental capasity for such a debate. That's my point, "few too many". I, in no-way-shape-or-form wish to rain on your sunny day but, I feel its getting a little off track. I also feel you are losing your fellow forumites:(. Not everyone is on the same level. If you reall want to discuss philosophy, create a thread called "Philosophical Debate" or something. I just feel we need to rein this one in, k?:D

On a side note however, good points to both of you:happy:.

SirSteve
04-11-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by derek
icatch9,
sir steve,

what does the law say regarding news organizations using copyrighted photos? can't they use them as long as the source is credited? some may call this, or rebel scum fan sites, but actuallty they are news sites, just as legit as CNN or MSNBC's news sites. just because you don't report political news does not make it any less relevant.

Copyright laws state that you cannot use a copyrighted photo (which is copyrighted when it is taken) unless you taken the photograph yourself or have permission from the person that took the photo (or company which in this case is Hasbro).

icatch9
04-12-2002, 09:44 AM
Derek and Vulcantouch, you guys take all the fun out of this hobby. Enjoy your discussion and take the advice of Dar'Argol.

Later Dudes

vulcantouch
04-14-2002, 01:32 PM
d'a: "Not everyone is on the same level"
-is everyone Supposed to be? must every thread (or, for that matter, every post on a given thread) be for everyone?

"you are losing your fellow forumites"
-i've received emails from forummers indicating they've been both entertained and enriched by this debate between me & derek. but if others don't have the "mental capacity" or interest to follow derek's & mine's plumbing this issue to its depths, who's forcing Them to read it?
personally i only read maybe one out of 15 gendiscuss threds, and only one out of seven ssg forums. should i complain to ssg and my fellow forummers that more topics aren't of greater personal interest to me? or should i accept that it's My responsibility to pick & choose?
requiring derek to start an additional thread to reply to me would be unwieldy, messy, inconvenient & would chop up the natural, back&forth rhythm of our debate. unlike ic9, i don't get fussy when we wander off-topic a bit, cuz i don't think we're a buncha colorless robots who're gonna short-circuit unless we talk only about toys. what's the harm? it's not like we're preventing anyone else from resuming dead-on-topic discussion here at any time. besides, discussions Should be organic, and these lil detours help give us a more well-rounded view of our fellow forummers :)
i ask that the moderator reconsider, so that derek may feel welcome to respond to me right here in any manner he chooses. then i'll reply to him, then he to me etc, for as long as we wish. he & i've both shown that we're both skilled, disciplined squabblers, & can both be trusted :cool:

ic9: "you guys take all the fun out of this hobby"
-oh Really? ALL the fun? that's quite an accomplishment for two guys doin nuthin more than just peckin away on a keyboard, Dude :rolleyes:
hey, since this hobby's no longer fun for you, can derek & i have your toys? :D (you can have mostuvum derek, i'm mainly into mms :) )
vt