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Lobito
08-30-2001, 03:26 PM
I like Star Trek, but i am a Star wars FAN, so my winner is pretty obvious, nevertheless, Jedi Trcks points are really interesting. Maybe Star Trek could win some battles, but for me the cake goes to Star Wars.

So bring it on guys, may the better story wins...

El Chuxter
08-30-2001, 03:37 PM
Honestly, all humor pages (http://fan.starwars.com/elchuxter/files/warsvtrek.htm) aside (:)), I think that if it ever happened, the good guys would be good guys and the bad guys would be bad guys. None of this Marvel Comics "we're both good, but let's fight for no real reason" garbage.

JediCole
08-30-2001, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
Honestly, all humor pages (http://fan.starwars.com/elchuxter/files/warsvtrek.htm) aside (:)), I think that if it ever happened, the good guys would be good guys and the bad guys would be bad guys. None of this Marvel Comics "we're both good, but let's fight for no real reason" garbage.

I have to salute this post! This is right up there with a line in Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back when Holden refers to the Bluntman and Chronic Movie as "The worst idea since having Greedo shoot first".

You have my gratitude for making such a wonderful and obscure pop culture reference!

bigbarada
08-30-2001, 03:47 PM
I've always been a Star Trek fan along with Star Wars. I think it's kind of idiotic to believe that you can't be both.

The reasons I like Star Trek are different from the reasons I like Star Wars. For instance, my favorite aspect of Trek is all the techno-babble and cerebral stories. My favorite aspect of Star Wars is the wholesome sense of adventure and the amazing visuals.

Darth Cruel
08-31-2001, 12:52 AM
I have to agree with bigbarada. The two are different enough for me to be able to enjoy them both. How can you not like a character like Captain Kirk, or Spock.

On the other hand...lets look at some parrallels.

Captain Picard - Obi-Wan Kenobi(wise...seem to know everything)
First Officer Riker - Han Solo (brash and devil-may-care)
Worf - Chewbacca(big strong friendly alien sidekicks)
Deanna Troy - Princess Leia(the "conscience" of each group)
Data - R2-D2 and C-3PO(the logic of each group)
Q - The Emperor(all-powerful enemies)
Tribbles - Ewoks(couldn't resist)
Every alien beast that kirk fights - Rancor
The Borg and their ship - Stormtroopers on the Death Star

And regardless of the above listed similarities, I still say they are different enough to enjoy them both. Incidently...the above similarities can be found in most good vs evil movies of any genre.

2-1B
08-31-2001, 01:02 AM
Worf and Chewy are friendly ? It's a madhouse, a MADHOUSE !

I always loved TNG. I was 9 when it started, so I guess I grew up with it. But not on the same level as Star Wars.

I agree with Darth Cruel and bigB that they are all enjoyable in their own ways.

AmanaMatt
08-31-2001, 04:26 AM
Star Wars captured my imagination as a child (hey, I'm still into it), but Star Trek caught my imagination as a teenager... I had to grow up to kind of 'get it' when it came to ST. They're both great, but very, very different!

Obi-Don
08-31-2001, 07:54 AM
I grew up on the old Star trek shows.I remember watching them every night,not when they aired but the reruns.I loved the shows.I was 12 when ANH came out,and I was hooked.To choose one over the other is something I couldn't do.Each one has its own universe and story and both are equally popular.I say enjoy them both.There is nothing wrong being a fan of both,I am.[Beam me Scotty,and set a corase for the Hoth system.] :D

JediTricks
08-31-2001, 11:54 AM
I love Trek and I love SW, although I've been a Trekkie since before there was a SW (not long before though ;)). I love both the adventures and the technical aspects of each, even though Lucas doesn't make a huge effort for scientific things to make sense. So one thing I'm always thinking about is that Trek's science-fiction science is simply more advanced than Star Wars' science-fiction science -- Lucas' sciences are based around lasers and gasses and point-seven past lightspeed, while lasers and gas-based weaponry and less than 2 times the speed of light are all things that were archaic to Trek back when Shatner had straight hair. Does that mean that the Millennium Falcon isn't as wonderful as the Enterprise-A to me? Not at all, just that the Falcon doesn't have what it takes to survive a battle against a 23rd and 24th century Starfleet vessel.

But all in all, that's the point, they're not the same, they're 2 different animals - Star Trek and Star Wars have very little in common and that makes comparsion between the 2 pointless in my eyes.

Lobito
08-31-2001, 02:19 PM
Its not pointless, the point is to discuss this subject in a FUN way (like El Chuxter wrote b4), this thread is not intended to divide the Trek and the SW fans. Nobody said it was "idiotic" to be a fan of both, on the contrary, i myself said that i like Star Trek, but as i said b4 i like Star Wars the most, thats all guys.

FUN

JediCole
08-31-2001, 02:33 PM
I find the whole Star Trek vs. Star Wars to be somewhat purile, much like, "I bet Spider-Man could beat up Batman". Fortunatly most of you have taken a similar view and not perpetuated the sophomoric "verses" mentality that tends to prevail these days. Like so many others, I am a fan of both, though Star Wars is my first love and always will be. I had watched reruns of the classic Star Trek off and on for a few years before Star Wars burst onto the collective conciousness of the world. A good friend of mine at the time (about age 10) was a huge fan of the series and tried his best to get me interested. A few episodes did catch my fancy back then, like Space Seed and Journey to Babel.
In the summer of '77 I saw Star Wars for the first time with no idea what it was going to be, and ultimately mean to me. I was blown away and it became the first movie I ever saw more than once. I managed to see it about twelve times that summer (I was only 11 and had to beg rides), and at least three more times the following summer when it was rereleased (yes, they did it before the Special Edition) for the one-year anniversary. When Empire was announced I was pumped! My best friend and I went to see Something Wicked This Way Comes just to see the preview for Empire. We even convinced the theatre employees to let us stay for the next showing just long enough to see the previews.
However, we were equally pumped when Star Trek II was released. Oddly enough, a Star Trek film based on one of the few episodes of the series that had caught my attention as a child. Needless to say I couldn't wait.
I was in college when Star Trek The Next Generation premiered on the fledgling UPN. I had read some info on the cast and their characters and found the whole thing wanting, but decided to watch none the less. I got hooked. Despite the hit-and-miss first seasons I stuck with it to the end. Deep Space Nine held an on-again, off-again status of facination with me, and Voyager never managed to hold me as a viewer (largely due to my intense dislike of the "quest show" formula, a show built around a single, defining quest that seems strangely inturrupted on a regular basis, examples being The Fugitive and Land of the Lost). I am anxious for the arrival of Enterprise, I think it holds promise.
But in the end I have an undying love for Star Wars that allows me to even forgive such things as Ewoks, various elements of the Special Editions, and Episode I. May 2002 cannot get here fast enough.
And in parting, a special thank you to George Lucas and the late Gene Roddenberry.

JediTricks
09-01-2001, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Lobito
Its not pointless, the point is to discuss this subject in a FUN way (like El Chuxter wrote b4), this thread is not intended to divide the Trek and the SW fans. Nobody said it was "idiotic" to be a fan of both, on the contrary, i myself said that i like Star Trek, but as i said b4 i like Star Wars the most, thats all guys.

FUN
It's fun for Chux because he doesn't really like Trek, but what if you don't have a bias towards one or the other, how much fun is it then? As for "pointless", take a look at the next 3 words in my post after that.

As for "nobody said it was idiotic to like both", while that's true of this thread, I've seen a lot of anti-Trek posts in the past year on Star Wars forums and most of the time, these threads turn into that sort of thing where Trekkies and -ers get bashed for liking SW. I've found that it's VERY common in the SW fandom.


JediCole, TNG didn't start the UPN network, it was a syndicated show, the #1 syndicated show till Baywatch hit its peak. UPN was originally conceived to start in the late '70s with the Star Trek II tv series which was converted into ST:The Motion Picture, and UPN was started with Voyager.

I couldn't agree more with the "hit-and-miss first season of TNG" comment, I was a HUGE fan of the show when it came on, but the first 2 seasons were just not as consistantly good as the rest for me.

stillakid
09-01-2001, 05:29 PM
:confused:

Anakin Skywalker
09-01-2001, 06:57 PM
Star Wars will always beat out Star Trek.....

2-1B
09-01-2001, 09:49 PM
JediTricks, you mentioned Trekkies and Trekkers. Can you remind me of the difference?
I'm a casual Trek fan, and while this was once explained to me long ago, I forgot what each term refers to specifically.

I for one find it foolish to bash Trek from a SW perspective. If it's not something you like, that's fine, but to dislike it in the same breath as endorsing SW, well that is really juvenile.

Bel-Cam Jos
09-02-2001, 04:04 PM
Well, let's go to the tale of the tape:

Technology:
SW - ancient at times, beat-up, a "less civilized time," often just there
ST - clean, powerful, explained, why it's there/what it does

Philosophy:
ST - protect and learn
SW - come to grips with self/purpose

Enemies:
SW - Empire, Sith, misc crime lords at times
ST - Klingons (for a while), Jem Hadar (sp?), Borg, i.e. lots of bad guys!

I give up; too hard. :) Thet're different and similar all at once. I often find ST more boring than SW, but ST has more diversity in its characters. There are more on-the-surface situations in SW, but the space battles are hands-down better in SW.

stillakid
09-02-2001, 04:54 PM
If in doubt, rewatch the Saturday Night Live skit featuring William Shatner addressing a Star Trek convention.

JediTricks
09-03-2001, 08:16 AM
stillakid, read Shatner's book "Get A Life" (named after the infamous line you are mentioning), he didn't really understand and he had been pushed too hard at the time, but in the book, he doesn't like how that came off.


Bel-cam, another thing about Trek that's different than SW is that much of Trek is egalitarian while Star Wars is based on the heroes only, the little guys are unimportant for the most part. I would think of all people, you with the homage to Joseph Campbell would have got in touch with that one. ;)


Caesar, I think the difference between "Trekkies" and "Trekkers" to most Trekkers is that the former is a term they find to be offensive, like "Star Warts" ;) I mostly find the difference between the 2 terms to simply be how you look at how the outside world looks at you, I don't care that folks know I'm into Trek, but I don't wear it as a badge of pride either. I think "Trekker" is too snooty, too PC, and really does more to distance the group from the rest of humanity than the spock-ears.

Bel-Cam Jos
09-03-2001, 01:29 PM
SW - come to grips with self/purpose
This was the "heroes" homage I meant, JT. And just because I name myself after Mr. Campbell, do I have to be Joseph Campbell? ;) Sure; I'd love it! Well, except for the being dead aspect. ;) JC was a true original, and is sorely missed. I think if he was alive when Lucas was writing TPM, the story would have been much improved.

El Chuxter
09-03-2001, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks

It's fun for Chux because he doesn't really like Trek. . . .

When did I say that? :confused: If that's how I've come across, it's not my intention. I just like Star Wars much more, and don't have the knowledge base to have much of an intelligent conversation about Star Trek. And I have to admit that sometimes things I see in bookstores and hobby shops--like Hamlet translated into Klingon, especially--weird me out. (Yeah, I know it's probably based on the line in ST6 (?): The Final Frontier, but why would someone translate Shakespeare into a made-up language? And why would a publisher produce it, or a reader buy it?) But at the same time, I recognize that Star Wars fans are as bad or worse than Trekkies/ers. (When was the last time you saw someone shouting victory when he found a Picard figure at TRU at a midnight sale?)

But I just read an article on Enterprise in Entertainment Weekly, and it looks like a step in the wrong direction. I see what you meant elsewhere about Rick Berg being akin to McCallum. It looks almost as wrong as the Smallville (AKA "Let's ruin the Superman mythos more than Lois & Clark dared to dream of"). Here's hoping that the live-action Tick show will give us one new series to look forward to!

stillakid
09-03-2001, 06:04 PM
SPOON!!!!

bigbarada
09-03-2001, 11:18 PM
I just finished watching Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn on TNN. Still the best Trek movie ever made, probably the ESB of Star Trek. Funny, intense and sad at times; with an ending that was filled with a great loss combined with a bright hope for the future.

stillakid
09-03-2001, 11:36 PM
Khan, bloodsucker, you've managed to kill my entire crew...but like a poor marksman, you keep misssssing the target!


-- definitely one of the best Shatner lines ever!

JediTricks
09-04-2001, 08:48 AM
Chux, I got that from your comment "Thanks! I pride myself on being woefully ignorant of Trek!" because I said your writeup of Trek vs SW page was "woefully ignorant of Trek and simply uses the most basic of Trek stereotypes as it's basis of battle." Sorry if I misunderstood you there.

Bel-cam, I didn't really get that you were saying that SW took an elitist attitude towards the universe from that statement. So get it right, or we're changing your name to "Lum-Cal Mic"... KIDDING!!! ;)

Stilla, it's a great line, but all my trekkie brain was saying was "he misquoted it!" ;)

Still... Old... Friend! You've managed to kill just about everyone else but like a poor marksman you keep missing the target.
Sorry, it's my nature. ;) The "bloodsucker" line is:
Khan you bloodsucker! You're gonna have to do your own dirty work now, do you hear me?!? DO YOU?!?

stillakid
09-04-2001, 08:52 AM
Thanks for the correction. Sorry to the rest of you, but I don't count myself as a Trekker/Trekkie in any way (though, for reasons beholden only to me, the franchise has been good for me). Still, I kind of like my edited version. It makes those Shatner impersonations sound that much more dramatic.

JediTricks
09-04-2001, 10:25 AM
As for Hamlet being translated, it's got to be based upon ST6:Undiscovered Country, where the writers actually had to rewrite the Klingon Language to include the term "to be", since neither word existed in the official Klingon Language when they wrote the film.


Ok, I'm going to post one based on the theme of this thread, and I'm giving the Defiant a major handicap by initially limiting the settings on her photon torpedoes to low yield (because basically, it'd be 2 torpedoes and then 0 Star Destroyers ;)):

Defiant NX-74205 vs. Star Destroyer---
While the Defiant is less than one-fifth the length of the Star Destroyer and only 4 decks tall, the Defiant packs a punch powerful enough to take on Borg cubes and is much faster and more maneuverable than it's Imperial enemy.

The Defiant is thrown through time and space by a member of the Q-continuum and lands itself right in front of a Star Destroyer. The Defiant hails the SD, and the universal translator informs the Starfleet crew that they are to surrender their vessel to the SD or prepare to be destroyed by order of Emperor Palpatine and the Galactic Empire. The ship is set on red alert and the tactical officer loads all 4 torpedo bays with photon torpedoes, as well as charging the pulse phasers.

The Imperial Star Destroyer's sensors tell it's crew that the ship across from them has raised shields and readied weapons. The ISD's commander orders the deflector shields which envelope the bridge online, ordering forward turbolaser batteries to fire at will, and to ready fighters, ion cannons, and a breaching pod.

The Defiant's sensors tell it's crew that the SD's shields and weaponry have come online. The Defiant's sensors analyze the defensive capabilities of the SD and let the crew know that the SD's weaponry is laser- and gas-based which is archaic and virtually harmless to the Defiant's shields, it's shields are thin deflectors which are vulnerable above the bridge, short-range fighters are readying for assault, and a large battery of ion beam weapons are charging to attempt to disable systems through physical contact of enemy systems. The starfleet crew adjust shields to use the ion discharges from the ion cannons and set photon torpedoes for low yield settings with short-range safeties to avoid point-blank destruction upon impact of a small enemy fighter.

The Star Destroyer fires her first volley of turbolaser blasts, which deflect and disperse harmlessly off the Defiant's shields. The Defiant fires up her impulse engines and rushes the upper section of the main body of the SD. The SD's gunners attempt to track the highly-maneuverable enemy craft, but find it difficult to even land a shot on the small gray ship, much less make those blasts cause an impact. The Defiant fires her pulse phasers at the lower section of the bridge and the upper section of the main body of the SD, severely draining the SD's shields and knocks the hyperdrive capability out, making escape impossible. The Defiant passes between the bridge and main body and as she swings out beind the Star Destroyer, which is attempting a starboard turn away from the starfleet ship, the Defiant fires a short volley of photon torpedoes out her twin aft torpedo launchers, crippling the SD's main engines and knocking out several dorsal decks. The Star Destroyer begins to list as secondary engines try to compensate for the out of control turn the ship is making, and finally launches two waves of TIE Fighters at the enemy vessel.

Defiant makes a hard reverse and targets the bridge shield emitters, but as the SD's secondary engines kick in, the pulse phasers fire low and end up simply stricking rear decks. As the Defiant targets the relatively-thin spine of the Star Destroyer, a wave of 8 TIE Fighters emerges from under the SD's bulky main body and begin swarming. The Defiant makes no attempt to shake the small fighters, and blows 3 of them out of the stars in the first incoming assault with the upper phaser emitters, then makes another run at the Star Destroyer's bridge shields. One of the 5 TIE Fighters avoids phaser fire and kamakazies into the Defiant's forward shields, causing a large power loss to the forward shields - though some of that is redistributed to alternate systems while overlapping other shield systems, and engineering gets to work reparing the weakend shields. The Defiant turns back to face away from the rear of the SD, and puts a little distance between the chasing TIEs and then fires a photon torpedo into the 4 remaining TIEs, destroying 2.

As the Defiant swings back around to make a run on the underside of the Star Destroyer, 8 more TIE Fighters come at the starfleet ship along with 4 TIE Interceptors, but since they're coming directly into the path of the defiant, many are immediately wiped out by the Defiant's pulse phasers. The remaining TIEs scatter as the Defiant spins her way through the enemy fighters, but takes a glancing blow on the port shields from spinning into a TIE Interceptor, blowing out 3 port shield emitters and weakening overall shield strength on the Defiant and leaving a small gap. The Defiant fires a full volley at the main reactor of the SD, but that section is well-armored and takes the abuse with some damage, but not buckling. As the Defiant continues on, ion cannons are let loose from the underside of the SD, and the shields take the abuse and disperse it; Defiant then blasts the main hangar with full pulse phasers and photon torpedoes, crippling the TIE fighters about to launch. A bold TIE Interceptor catches up with the Defiant and lets loose, then goes in for a closer attack, but ends up flying up between the Defiant and SD so close that it ends up striking the hull of the SD and spinning into the nose of the Defiant, where the shields were weakened. Slight damage is taken to the Defiant's main deflector, but the hull remains intact and ablative armor systems send damaged layers of the outer hull into the path of the chasing TIEs.

The Defiant pulls around the nose of the Star Destroyer to face a powerful volley of turbolaser fire, which has little effect on the shields of the starfleet ship who even deflect several blasts back at the SD. Defiant sets her sights on the main bridge and disregards all other targets and firing weapons to concentrate on the shield emitters of the SD's bridge. Once the Defiant gets halfway up the Star Destroyer's main body, her angle of attack changes and she lets loose with both pulse phasers and full torpedo attacks both fore and aft. The SD takes heavy damage but again shakes the tight fire meant to destroy her deflector shields. The Defiant wipes out the final trailing TIEs when she flies over the bridge of the SD and comes around for a perpendicular attack on the Y-axis... in other words, the Defiant dives straight down into center of the Star Destroyer and lays all her firepower into the SD, crippling the firing centers for the upper section and most of the equatorial turbolasers.

Pulling out of the power dive, the Defiant's aft photon torpedo launchers finally hit their mark and rip the upper hull to shreds, taking out the secondary engines. Putting distance between the small powerful Starfleet experimental craft and the heavily-damaged Star Destroyer, the captain of the Defiant hails the Star Destroyer and offers them terms of surrender, but the SD's commander knows that to fail here is to face the wrath of Lord Vader, and returns the hail with a promise of immediate destruction to the Defiant's crew. The captain of the Defiant decides that there can be only one way to finish this, and has the tactical officer reset photon torpedoes to maximum yield without safeties, and the Defiant delivers 3 well-placed torpedoes into the weakend deflector shields and the hull of the Star Destroyer. The SD takes the hits and begins to explode in some sections, while forward sections fire everything they've got back at the Defiant. Once the shields are down, one more torpedo shot is laid into the center mass of the SD, but doesn't immediately explode, instead continuing into the body of the Star Destroyer far enough to set off the main reactor, which turns the Imperial ship into an Imperial fireball. The U.S.S. Defiant scans for survivors, finds none, and sets course for Earth at maximum warp.

stillakid
09-04-2001, 10:49 AM
Nice story! However, wimpy "starfleet" buses are no match for craft designed primarily to destroy. A full on volley from the Star Destroyer and a mass attack from the armada of TIE's would finish the battle off before the Galactic Associated Press had time to realize anything was going on.

But then again, I'm making this up as I go...:D

Lobito
09-04-2001, 12:12 PM
How big is the USS Enterprise in comparison with the M. Falcon??

Bel-Cam Jos
09-04-2001, 02:02 PM
So get it right, or we're changing your name to "Lum-Cal Mic"... KIDDING!!!
I am saddened by this evil, spiteful, unforgivable insult, JT. To quote ALF: "These... are teardrops." :( ;) :p :D :D

But I have to ask, JediTricks, do you prefer the Stackpole or Allston X-Wing series? That's much too treknical for me! ;) One thing about SW vs. ST is that SW is less technical and more mystical (Campbell-esque?).

master jedi
09-04-2001, 02:14 PM
Star Wars would wi 'cause Star Trek people have to follow thier stupid prime directive c*** and in star wars if somebedy makes you mad you just take a blaster and shoot.
In Star Wars when a ship gets hit every body falls the same direction and in Star Trash everybody falls in different directions.

My vote is for Star Wars.

JediTricks
09-05-2001, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Nice story! However, wimpy "starfleet" buses are no match for craft designed primarily to destroy. A full on volley from the Star Destroyer and a mass attack from the armada of TIE's would finish the battle off before the Galactic Associated Press had time to realize anything was going on.

But then again, I'm making this up as I go...:D Dude, my story was just strung WAAAAY out because even the tiny Defiant would obliterate the bulky, massive Star Destroyer in 2 photon torpedo shots - returned fire would not affect the shields because they're based on something confirmed to be very old and weak in several different incarnations of Trek (my favorite is the TNG ep where the whole crew gets selective amnesia by an alien who convinces the crew to fight the alien's enemy forces, but Picard realizes that the laser-based weaponry poses no threat at all to the Enterprise, so it wouldn't make sense that this massive ship would be in that war).


Lobito, the "important" Enterprise sizes are:
Enterprise A - (note: there's a LOT of disagreement on this in fan circles and even official ones)
Decks: 23
Height: 71 meters
Width: 141 meters
Length: 305 meters

Ent D -
Decks: 42
Height: 137 meters
Width: 467 meters
Length: 642 meters

Ent E -
Decks: 24
Height: 88 meters
Width: 250 meters
Length: 685 meters

Now the Millennium Falcon is also not exactly a "locked down" official size (in part thanks to the exterior being much smaller than the inside), so there's plenty to argue about there, but here's the general idea:
Decks: 1
Height: approx. 6 meters
Width: approx. 18 meters
Length: 27 meters

I'm working on a set of images to show you the size differences, I'll add it when I'm done.


Bel-Cam, I don't actually READ much of the EU, so I would say "um... Stackpole, 'cause I've seen his name on stuff more often". :D

BTW, from your smileys, I think you might talk to your doctor about bipolar disorder. ;)


MJ, I won't even dignify that post of yours with a "harumph". :p

JediTricks
09-06-2001, 08:03 AM
I decided to be very complete and made up photo examples of the scale difference between several Enterprises, the Falcon, and a Star Destroyer. You can see all this at the page on my site, and I triple-checked the math on each (I quadruple-checked the math on the Falcon, you'll see why when you go there ;)):

http://www.geocities.com/jeditricks/trekwars

BTW, this little task gave me a new appreciation for the metric system. If I had been converting feet or yards into what I needed, I wouldn't have been able to handle it.

bigbarada
09-06-2001, 08:44 AM
Fascinating;)

Actually your depiction of two sizes for the Falcon just goes to show how "up for interpretation" everything is in Star Wars. Which in my mind makes it so cool. I like Star Trek for the precision of it all, knowing that the interiors and exteriors all match up and every square inch of space is accounted for. However with Star Wars, which has always been a space fantasy and by no means sci-fi, the indeterminate and sometimes conflicting nature of objects just adds to the appeal and charm of the entire saga.

I seem to remember a comment made about Lucas' science being off. I don't think GL really cares about the science of it all, as the story is the most important element. I would compare it to Tolkein explaining the scientific principles behind on of Gandalf's magic spells. It is neither necessary nor welcome by the audience in order to enjoy the story.

Reverting to sci-fi geek mode in 3...2....1....You've determined that the laser based weapons of SW cannot penetrate the Enterprise shields. What about the Death Star super laser? In any case if the Death Star destroyed a planet directly behind the Enterprise I'm sure the millions of tons of rock impacting the Enterprise hull would be quite enough to do it in.

JediTricks
09-06-2001, 09:15 AM
"Fantasy" is right! You ever notice Chewie working on the Falcon's exterior in Echo Base on Hoth? He's almost as big as the mandible he's working on!!! ;)

As for the Death Star's superlaser, if we are to assume that it's a pure light-based weapon which cuts into a solid planet's crust until it hits the core, then it somehow causes the entire substrata to explode (possibly by superheating the liquid magma core to flash-boiling or some other nonsense... hmm, why am I thinking of Dr Evil now and the liquid-hot "magma"? ;)). Anyway, if it's simply a giant cutting laser, then the Enterprise's deflector shields should be able to deflect it. However, if it's some sort of energy pulse-infused laser (boy, I'm reaaaaaally stretching here), then the shields may not be able to take that much power, ceptin! :D Of course, the Death Star isn't really going to be able to target and fire upon a moving starship anyway since it's targeting systems are made to target stationary planets.

Obi-Don
09-06-2001, 09:21 AM
I hope that Picard would warp the heck out of there when the Death Star draws a bead on the Enterprise.But Hey,the Death Star was blown up.So Picard doesn't have to worry about that ...wait,what if the Enterprise travels back in time to before it was destoryed. :eek: Ok I just remembered,two different stories and two different universes.:D

stillakid
09-06-2001, 10:52 AM
You know that theory that if you're hit by lightning, but you're wearing rubber soled shoes, you'll be okay? Just in case you haven't heard, it's rubbish. That's a lot of power that isn't about to be stopped by a thin little non-conductive material.

Those wimpy Starfleet shields aren't about to stop the sheer amount of laser fire that would come from a Destroyer and would never survive a direct blast from the Death Star. Shields would be weakened almost immediately, forcing the Trek ship to whip a U exposing its backside. Unless it managed to hit warp, a couple ion blasts then the rain of fire would finish it off within moments.

Besides, that prime directive stuff would keep the Trekkie science bus from shooting at the Imperials anyhow. :D

JediTricks
09-06-2001, 11:12 AM
WARP?!? Picard wouldn't need to warp out of there, the Death Star's superlaser could be charging up, the Enterprise's main and secondary impulse propulsion and maneuvering thrusters could all be offline, and he could STILL move the ship out of the dang way simply by decompressing the shuttlebays. ;) I love that visual, let me set the scene:


The USS Enterprise D has been flung through space and time by a wormhole that was swallowing a quantum singularity, causing the a gravimetric time-space displacement whose measurements were off the charts. The Enterprise, finally dropping to sublight speeds, uses the last of the propulsion systems to grind to a hault to affect repairs on the massive damage taken by the powerful spacial event. Commander Riker reports that all propulsion systems are offline and will remain that way until the fused power conduits can be replaced, which will take several hours. Suddenly, Data reports a moon-sized space station is coming into range at lightspeed, and has spotted the Enterprise.

Grand Moff Tarkin, on his way to meet Darth Vader who is chasing Senator Leia, is shocked to see a relatively large vessel of unknown design on the sensor screens, and demands that the Death Star investigate these newcomers. Officers inform Tarkin that the vessel is heavily-armed but currently has no propulsion. Not willing to risk letting a potential new enemy survive an encounter with the Empire's newest weapon, Tarkin orders the superlaser to destroy the ship.

Picard, having been told about the superweapon targeting the Enterprise and readying for discharge, orders engineering to get some sort of propulsion back online in less than 5 minutes or they'll all perish, but is told that it's not likely that they'll get impulse engines back online in the time needed. Data informs the Captain that the giant weapon is designed to destroy planets, and once locked on to a target, cannot track movement that is inconsistant with a planetary orbital path.

Tarkin, confident in the ultimate superiority of the Death Star, gives the "fire at will" command and watches in anticipation of the first confirmed kill by his technological terror. The one-minute mark is passed and Tarkin is almost drooling with poorly-hidden bloodlust.

Picard asks for ideas as the last 30 seconds click away, and Data remembers a previous mission with a temporal rift and Riker's idea, so Data suggests the old "depressurize the shuttlebay" idea and Picard barks out, "make it so!" -- a transaction that takes up nearly all their remaining time, though Data's android fingers have already entered the commands into the system by the end of the Captain's first syllable. The Enterprise's artificial second-officer presses the final key with only 3 seconds to spare, and as the superlaser's pre-firing laser beams meet at their apex, all three of the Enterprise's aft-facing shuttlebays' doors open and release the pressurized atmospheres inside, propelling the Enterprise out of the way of the beam just as the superlaser's blast fires. Picard and crew sigh with relief just as Lt Cmdr Geordi LaForge miraculously figures out a way to redirect the warp flow, giving the green-panel announcement to the bridge. Picard orders the helm to "set maximum warp, any heading, and engage!"

Tarkin's bloodlust turns to utter horror and disbelief as he sees the mighty blast of his magnificent weapon pass the enemy vessel by without so much as scorching its hull. The Grand Moff's jaw is agape as his eyes are transfixed on the viewscreen in an unblinking, livid stare while the green beam meant for utter annihilation of the starship instead disappears into the inky darkness of space as the interloping vessel streaks out of sight at a speed faster than hyperspace itself. A deathly silence fills the command deck as all eyes are on the staggered Grand Moff; no officer dares to be the one to garner focus and risk incurring the wrath of the second-most-influential being in the Imperial chain of command -- the command staff of the most powerful weapon in the galaxy collectively holds their breath in fear of a frail old man. After three minutes without change, Tarkin - who is even more pale than usual - turns to a small grouping of officers and quietly says, "We shall not speak of what occurred here ever again, am I understood?" His officers quickly nod their heads and agree, then begin chattering about how nothing of interest happened just now. Tarkin then gathers his composure and tells the crew to continue on course for their rendezvous with Lord Vader, steps off the command deck, and heads for his personal quarters where a fresh pair of Imperial underwear await him.

JediTricks
09-06-2001, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
You know that theory that if you're hit by lightning, but you're wearing rubber soled shoes, you'll be okay? Just in case you haven't heard, it's rubbish. That's a lot of power that isn't about to be stopped by a thin little non-conductive material.

Those wimpy Starfleet shields aren't about to stop the sheer amount of laser fire that would come from a Destroyer and would never survive a direct blast from the Death Star. Shields would be weakened almost immediately, forcing the Trek ship to whip a U exposing its backside. Unless it managed to hit warp, a couple ion blasts then the rain of fire would finish it off within moments.

Besides, that prime directive stuff would keep the Trekkie science bus from shooting at the Imperials anyhow. :D Hmm, where to begin? First off, there's no evidence that the superlaser is an energy-based weapon, although I did give that VERY THIN hypothesis a whirl in my post above where I said "However, if it's some sort of energy pulse-infused laser (boy, I'm reaaaaaally stretching here), then the shields may not be able to take that much power, ceptin!" and I pointed out that the Death Star would not be able to track the maneuverable starship well enough to adjust their weapon before it fires (or the starship simply flies behind the station again), and since it takes 24 hours to recharge, they're not likely to take a second shot.

The only thing we actually know about the weapon on the Death Star is that it's a laser-based weapon, and laser-based weaponry is no threat to Starfleet shields, you cannot say "well it's extremely strong" because it's still just a light-based weapon.

As for this nonsense about the prime directive, any vessel or base that puts the crew in harm's way is no longer under the protection of the prime directive. So if Han decides he wants to own the Enterprise and fires first, Kirk can decide to either disable or destroy the Falcon with the Enterprise's phasers or torpedoes at his discretion -- though protocol dictates that the weaker the threat posed by the enemy, the less need a commander should have to use deadly force.

bigbarada
09-06-2001, 12:12 PM
Apples and oranges. When all is said and done these debates are really just the same elementary school "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments kids get into everyday.

With that said, what if Vader seeing the Enterprise appear out of nowhere and sensing that these being are obviously devoid of midichlorians (sorry couldn't resist) thus the Force doesn't flow through them. So he decides to learn more about them and gives them a story about the Empire's attempts to establish peace continually thwarted by terrorists. He tells of one of their leaders, Luke Skywalker, who murdered his adopted family and fled the planet only to bring death and destruction on hundreds of loyal soldiers.

Just then the Rebel attack arrives from Yavin's moon and the Enterprise agrees to assist in ridding the galaxy of these murderous terrorists. You fill in the rest.....

stillakid
09-06-2001, 02:25 PM
The bit about the Death Star only being able to fire upon stationary objects returns me to my childhood watching Return of the Jedi. The capital ships I suppose had thrown anchor just waiting for their annihliation by the behemoth.

In any case, I suppose this question belongs in its own thread, but I've been wondering why the Rebel fleet didn't just move around to the unfinished side of the Death Star? In fact, at the top of the battle, when all hell is breaking loose, they see the enemy ships coming in and proceed to head straight for them. Weird, huh?

Bel-Cam Jos
09-06-2001, 03:34 PM
I would like to send JediTricks a Get Well Soon e-card, since he must obviously be in the hosptial for carpal tunnel syndrome. Dude, you must make your points in less sentences! Don't you know this in the MTV generation, where 20 seconds, or 3 sentences is all we can handle? :p And you can send me/us a card for my/our bipolar disorder, JT!

I saw a Harlan Ellison show (Sci-Fi Channel maybe?) where he blasted SW for being considered science fiction. Star Wars is NOT sci-fi. The "science" part is not so important; perhaps fantasy fiction is more appropriate.

Have I reached 20 seconds yet? ;)

JediTricks
09-07-2001, 06:52 AM
See, that's where you and I differ Bel-Cam, you are a moderator while I am a SUPER Moderator. ;)

Stilla, I'm afraid there's a good reason which is really just a bad reason in disguise of the confines of Lucas' version of physics. Basically, the fleet is trapped between the DSII, the planet, and the Imperial Fleet. However, this is disregarding that there's nobody stopping them from backing out a bit or flying straight up or down on the Z-axis or simply fly around the Death Star. Now, as for the silliness with the Rebel captial ships just sitting there, one COULD say that these ships, once stopped, are VERY slow and have to fight momentum to get out of the way of the blast (remember that Home 1 and the other Mon Cal ship is around the same size as the slow and poorly maneuverable Star Destroyer). This doesn't explain the frigate getting shot however, as the frigates like the Medial Frigate appear to be significantly smaller than the Star Destroyers, but perhaps
- A) the frigate was surrounded by too many capital ships and fighters and was simply unable to move; or
- B) the frigate was simply in the line of fire since the DSII could recharge in 5 minutes and reaim and got unlucky. The DSII simply fires into a crowd of rebel ships and while missing dozens of them, hits one.

Ultimately however, the whole thing can be chalked up to "sloppy and convenient writing", something we've never accused Lucas of before, now have we. :D;)

bigbarada
09-07-2001, 12:15 PM
I'd say pretty much all of ROTJ could be chalked up to sloppy, convenient writing.:p

But then of course so could a number of Star Trek episodes and movies. Anybody remember Star Trek V: The Final Frontier?

JediTricks
09-08-2001, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I'd say pretty much all of ROTJ could be chalked up to sloppy, convenient writing.:p

But then of course so could a number of Star Trek episodes and movies. Anybody remember Star Trek V: The Final Frontier? That was Paramount's fault, they pulled a large chunk of the f/x budget away from Shatner before most were completed! Stupid Paramount. :rolleyes:

Bel-Cam Jos
09-08-2001, 11:26 AM
And, IF, there's... one thing you don't do... to Shatner, is take... his money. PARAMOUNT!!!!!!! Set movie on "suck." ;)

Bragging about your SM status, JT, eh? Well, then -

(portion of this post edited by Bel-Cam Jos)

- and stay there! Kidding...

Star Wars rules, 'cuz Darth Vadar Lives! We had that line before "Spock Lives."

bigbarada
09-08-2001, 06:38 PM
That was Paramount's fault, they pulled a large chunk of the f/x budget away from Shatner before most were completed! Stupid Paramount.

Ok then how do you explain Star Trek 3 and Generations and Insurrection?

Besides, budget is no excuse for a bad movie. Star Wars had only a $10 million budget, laughable for a SP/FX movie even in 1976, but GL's vision came through to make one of the greatest movies of all time.

I think Shatner was the factor hindering ST5, his ego got the best of him and ruined what could have been a good movie.

JediTricks
09-09-2001, 11:59 AM
"Bragging about your SM status, JT, eh?"

Not at all BC, I'm just saying, "I'm thuuuuper, thankth for athking, all thingth conthidered, I couldn't be better, I mutht thaaaaay!..." ;)


"Ok then how do you explain Star Trek 3 and Generations and Insurrection?

Trek 3 wasn't nearly as bad as Generations and Insurrection IMO, the latter 2 I can sum up in one word: "Berman".


"Besides, budget is no excuse for a bad movie. Star Wars had only a $10 million budget, laughable for a SP/FX movie even in 1976, but GL's vision came through to make one of the greatest movies of all time."

Ah, but Lucas had a minimal budget to start with and made Fox pony up more. Paramount gave Shatner a bigger budget to start with, so Shatner and the producers budgeted out exactly the amount of money they'd need to do the F/X, and only once the first half of the money was spent did Paramount pull the rug out from under Trek 5.

"I think Shatner was the factor hindering ST5, his ego got the best of him and ruined what could have been a good movie."

I think Shatner did a fantastic job creating a film that felt like the original series, but TOS was TV and focused much more on Kirk than the movies, and Shatner didn't really look at this movie LIKE a movie. In fact, of all the incarnations of Trek since the cartoon, I think Trek 5 was the most true to the original series of any of the shows, movies, even books. As a teenager, I really loved Trek 5 because of it's adventurous spirit, cool technology, and Kirk back at his brash action hero from the show, but after stepping back and looking at the film with a less-biased eye, I do see the flaws (pacing, editing, and even conceptual problems, an inability to create a real sense of danger from the Klingons or the cultist, and that whole "deck 99" jazz ;)) but I still enjoy it on that adventure/eyecandy level that I enjoy TPM on. (not to be confused with TMP, which I enjoy on a totally different level ;))

bigbarada
09-09-2001, 12:42 PM
Rick Berman=Rick McCallum?:eek:

Coincidence or clone?

JediTricks
09-10-2001, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Rick Berman=Rick McCallum?:eek:

Coincidence or clone? Neither! I have a theory that they're evil twins separated at birth, but both with the goal to destroy all that is good about the two most popular Sci-Fi franchises. ;)

gshawn60
08-02-2011, 07:32 PM
I found both movies interesting. Both are real good. One is based in our past while the other is our own future. I would say nether would win because the Federation and the Rebels would team up and finish the Empire off. I also think Data would like to see all the droids from the other universe. Technology would be traded and adapted over time. I was getting tired of all the crap about this is better than that. Ether way it is hope that we will be space ferrying peoples some day.