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Taichi
04-11-2002, 04:07 PM
I'm not talking in the emotional sense, but more in the physical....

what I'd like to see most, is for Anakin to be addressed as Vader, BEFORE his emergence with the Dark Armor......

just to seal in our minds, that VADER was once human.....

then, he gets knocked into the Lava, or Blast Furnace, or whatever......

then we see him in a darkly lit chamber, with red light cast on him.....horribly burnt (The burns are actually fresh, and red, unlike the healed wounds in Jedi)......as Ugnaughts or something tend to putting on the armor for the first time........

Wolfwood319
04-11-2002, 04:12 PM
I've always just assumed that since the prequels are about the "downfall of Anakin" or whatever, that it be only natural to see Anakin become Vader.

Of course I'd like to see it go one further; not only do we see Anakin become Vader, but we also see him take out the remaining Jedi (Mace maybe.) I've always wanted to see a "younger" Vader fight like they do in TPM. Not so much with the acrobatics, but more aggressive.


then we see him in a darkly lit chamber, with red light cast on him.....horribly burnt (The burns are actually fresh, and red, unlike the healed wounds in Jedi)......as Ugnaughts or something tend to putting on the armor for the first time........

Of course this would also be a very cool ending to SW3 as well.

jblodgett
04-11-2002, 04:32 PM
Isn't it said that Darth Vader hunted down and killed the last of the Jedi?

I think it is logical that Anakin/Darth Vader is the one who kills Mace and all the other jedi- leaving only Obi-wan and Yoda.

Wolfwood319
04-11-2002, 04:38 PM
Sure, Vader hunted down all the remaining Jedi. Mace is not necissarily remaining though. Maybe he had a bad case of food poisoning, or fell in the shower, or something.

Taichi
04-11-2002, 06:09 PM
Now how do we know Yoda and Obi Wan are the last of the Jedi?

remember......Obi Wan's Quote in ANH:

"Now the Jedi are all but extinct"

he did not explicitly state that he and Yoda were the last two.....

but one must also take into account that Yoda stated that "The Last of the Jedi, Will you be"

although Yoda, too, might be mistaken......

It'd be cool to discover that Ben and Yoda aren't the only surviving Jedi.....

chewie
04-11-2002, 11:06 PM
I assume it will be something along the lines of the visual cues such as clonetroopers=stormtroopers in AOTC. I think there will be no further mention of how or why stormtroopers come to be. And it will be done the same way with Anakin.

Anakin will have a Vader-ish costume at some point in ep III once he turns to the dark side. He also won't be wearing his helmet and will still be a pretty boy. All black, cape, big black gloves and boots. Then he fights Obi, gets all scarred up/needing life support and stuff.

I think we'll see Anakin fall to his doom, and then you see a black shrouded figure (Palpatine or a lackey) swoop down/walk to where his body is and it will end there. In this way, Vader will undoubtably bear resemblance to Anakin in ANH, yet not totally give it away by outright seeing Anakin getting Vader-ized. And unless you're totally daft, you'll pick right up on this (as long as you didn't see the OT first). Yes, it will lighten the shocker of Vader being Luke's dad in ESB, but that is to be expected when three whole extra movies are dedicated to Vader's younger years.

RooJay
04-11-2002, 11:30 PM
I envision Anakin in Ep. 3 wearing a costume that is a cross between his Jedi uniform and Vader. Maybe sometime soon I'll post my concept of what I'd like to see him look like.

SithDroid
04-12-2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by Taichi
It'd be cool to discover that Ben and Yoda aren't the only surviving Jedi.....

Well if you take the EU into account, then they aren't. Supposedly there is a Jedi that was a Clone of a Jedi from the Clone Wars. His name is C'baoth and you can read about him in the First SW Trilogy of books to be put out since the OT by Bantam Books. It is a great story. There might be other EU Jedi references that I don't know about because I haven't read ALL the EU stuff (comics and books).

Taichi
04-12-2002, 04:30 AM
While I don't put a lot of stock in the EU, you raise a good point.....

C'Baoth is really just a clone of a Jedi........but Epatojayos Brand, and Vima Da Boda (Both from the Dark Empire series), were true Jedi at one time.....

RooJay
04-12-2002, 05:42 PM
Let's not forget the father of Kam Solusar!

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 11:34 PM
The way I feel that Ep3 will go:

Anakin, still of full-fledged Jedi, and Obi-Wan get into their duel sometime within the first hour of the movie. Anakin falls into the lava pit and for all intents and purposes is dead. He doesn't show up for the rest of the film, nor is it indicated that he was rescued.

Sometime near the end of the film Vader shows up, pretty much out of nowhere like Maul in Ep1, and participates in the final battle/fight/whatever. Never is it alluded to in Ep3 that Vader is Anakin and enough time will pass in the film for people to not get suspicious of Vader's sudden appearance.

This way the "I am your father" revelation is preserved for people watching the trilogy in order; AND when Obi-Wan gives Luke the line of rubbish about Vader betraying and murdering his father, the audience will be led to believe that Obi-Wan is simply trying to cover the fact that he killed Luke's father.

Jedi Clint
04-16-2002, 11:44 PM
I agree Big B. The way I see it, the "crazy old wizard" was trying to win Luke's trust so that he would willingly follow him on an adventure off world. Telling him about how he is kinda responsible for his father's death and rebirth as a monster isn't the best of ways to accomplish that goal. Not to mention that it was probably best to wait for Luke to mature a bit before he was told that he had to destroy his father to full fill his destiny.

bigbarada
04-16-2002, 11:46 PM
The ROTJ novelization sheds some light on what we might see. In the scene cut from ROTJ, Ben describes the fight between him and Vader:

"When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought...(deliberate pause)...your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever -- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will..."

So this implies that Anakin had already succumbed to the dark side before their fight.

However, sometime during Ep3 Vader has to reveal to Obi-Wan and Yoda who he really is. Otherwise how would they know? That's a new conundrum that will require some more thought.

stillakid
04-16-2002, 11:49 PM
God I hope not. But we've been through this one before.

bigbarada
04-17-2002, 12:01 AM
The more I think about it, though, the more I realize that that scene was probably cut from ROTJ for a reason. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole molten pool scenario was nixed for a completely different idea.

Jedi Clint
04-17-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
The ROTJ novelization sheds some light on what we might see. In the scene cut from ROTJ, Ben describes the fight between him and Vader:

"When I saw what had become of him, I tried to dissuade him, to draw him back from the dark side. We fought...(deliberate pause)...your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever -- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will..."

So this implies that Anakin had already succumbed to the dark side before their fight.

However, sometime during Ep3 Vader has to reveal to Obi-Wan and Yoda who he really is. Otherwise how would they know? That's a new conundrum that will require some more thought.

Allusion or Confirmation.

It has to have one or the other. I say allude to it. Obi Wan can figure it out....he's a sharp guy ;). Leave the audience guessing. After all his true persona is safely concealed behind a mask, the only way to completely reveal it is for one of the characters to call him Anakin or for him to say "I am Anakin Skywalker" while wearing the mask (although Lucas could show him being fitted with the suit......bleh). They need to meet once again after Anakin is destroyed. What better reason to have Vader in E3 than to hunt down the guy that he holds responsible for ruining his life.

bigbarada
04-17-2002, 12:57 AM
You might be right, there are tons of things that go on behind the scenes of SW films that the audience is kept clueless about. It's just GL's style.

For instance, something that GL states will never be explained in the films is Yoda teaching Obi-Wan how to do the disappearing upon death trick. GL says that this little lesson takes place between Ep3 and 4. Obviously he doesn't treat these characters as simply static icons who vanish from existence once the scene cuts away. GL treats them as if they are real people who search for their own answers whether the audience is watching them or not.

So your "alluding" idea does hold water, Jedi Clint.

stillakid
04-17-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by chewie
Yes, it will lighten the shocker of Vader being Luke's dad in ESB, but that is to be expected when three whole extra movies are dedicated to Vader's younger years.

This is why the only way to view them in the future will be in order of release, not in Episode order...presumably....for a brand new audience anyway...since anyone born before 2005 will have undoubtedly seen the films and have heard the "surprise."

Wolfwood319
04-17-2002, 01:14 AM
I don't think that there is really that much of a surprise anymore, because its such a pop culture term. Chances are, a 6 year old kid has heard the term "I am your father," before even knowing what Star Wars is.

I personally don't care. I know the jist of it, and I want to see Vader in action in SW3. Whether or not they say Anakin is Vader or not, no one knows, but I think we'll definately see Vader in SW3.

2-1B
04-17-2002, 01:21 AM
I think the "no showing how they disappear" thing was said back in '97. After TPM was released and everyone asked about Qui-Gon's corpse, George W said we would learn as we go along . . . so I don't know what to believe there.

The audience believing that Ben is covering up his killing of Anakin? I don't see how that could work. If we see what appears to be Anakin's death at Obi-Wan's hands (no matter how morally just), how can I support the character in ANH when he shifts the blame on to the bad guy?

bigbarada
04-17-2002, 03:19 AM
I'm not sure if it is possible to maintain Obi-Wan's integrity AND Darth Vader's identity without seriously re-editing the dialog in ANH and ROTJ.

"A young Jedi, named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil...He betrayed and murdered your father."

When the saga is watched in order, how can you keep the audience from asking a collective "what the hell?" when Obi-Wan says these lines?

Unless Lucas uses the old storytelling method of "dramatic irony" where the audience knows what's going on; but the characters have no clue. However, I've always found those types of stories frustrating at best. Used to ultimate irritating effect in the old "Three's Company" TV show.

Before Ep1 came out someone asked James Earl Jones if he was going to be in any of the prequels, since he is the voice of Darth Vader. He stated that GL would need him for about the last five minutes of Ep3. Who knows how much of the story has changed since then; but at least we know that Vader should be in Ep3 even if it is in the last few minutes.

2-1B
04-17-2002, 01:37 PM
I'll take dramatic irony. :) I think I will really like the Obi-Wan character from the prequels, and when I see him lose his apprentice to the dark side I hope to feel compassion for him. When I watch ANH, I'll be able to imagine the feelings he has when recalling the loss of "Vader".

Jedi Clint
04-17-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
I think the "no showing how they disappear" thing was said back in '97. After TPM was released and everyone asked about Qui-Gon's corpse, George W said we would learn as we go along . . . so I don't know what to believe there.

The audience believing that Ben is covering up his killing of Anakin? I don't see how that could work. If we see what appears to be Anakin's death at Obi-Wan's hands (no matter how morally just), how can I support the character in ANH when he shifts the blame on to the bad guy?

There was an ask the Jedi Council question on the official site related to Jedi disappearing. Lucas said that Ben learned to keep his identity in the force while in seclusion. Yoda may have already known. I can't find the thing now, but I know it is there. I did find this though:

Why didn't Qui-Gon Jinn disappear when he died?

Steve Sansweet: "Well, as we know, Obi-Wan Kenobi disappears when he was struck down by Darth Vader in the original Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope, after telling the evil Sith Lord, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine." When Yoda dies, he fades away. And when Darth Vader sacrifices himself in the end to save his son, he too becomes one with the Force (it is his armor that burned in the Endor funeral pyre).

Yet we see Qui-Gon killed by Darth Maul, then the flames lapping at his body at the temple on Naboo. No, this is not a continuity error. And yes, George Lucas does have a reason for treating these Jedi deaths differently. "There is a whole issue around that and the ability to disappear," he says. "The key line to understanding this is when Ben Kenobi tells Darth Vader, 'If you strike me down...' And it'll be explained as we go along." So we just have to wait a while longer. In the meantime, feel free to speculate. "



Why would our view of Ben's cover story change our opinion of him? One way or the other that is probably what he is doing in that scene. He didn't give it to Luke straight, as he later admitted to in ROTJ. So what is the difference between figuring out how full of it he is in ANH or eventually in ROTJ? Not much. His motivation is pure. He needs to take Luke with him.

I was just thinking that some might see the end of E3 to be the end of the trilogy, more than the end of the third chapter of a six part story. I think it will be much more like TESB in terms of story arc and endings. After all what is the first thing Lucasfilm wants the audience to do after seeing E3? Run out and pick up 4 - 6.

bigbarada
04-17-2002, 09:20 PM
That's one of the reasons that I now find Obi-Wan to be such an intriguing character. He lies and misleads, something that would normally be associated with a villian; but he is a hero in the truest sense of the word. He's flawed and probably the most human character in the entire saga.

Reading through little tidbits of the OT novelizations I've noticed many things deleted from the films that make me believe the whole 'Anakin falling into a lava pit' idea will be scrapped.

In ANH, Obi-Wan says of Owen Lars' opinion of Anakin, "He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

In the novelization he says, "He thought he should have stayed here and minded his farming." Implying that Anakin was a farmer originally.

There is also the part in the ROTJ book where Obi-Wan says that Owen is his brother. Which we now know to be untrue.

GL obviously left himself some breathing room when it came to prequels. So the lesson is, that if it didn't make it into the final cut of the film then don't count on it being true.

stillakid
04-17-2002, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
GL obviously left himself some breathing room when it came to prequels. So the lesson is, that if it didn't make it into the final cut of the film then don't count on it being true.

Even if it is in the final cut of the film, it isn't necessarily true. ;)
But that's another gazillion threads.

But your right, things are achangin' and there's no atellin' whicha way it's gonna go next.

Dryanta
04-17-2002, 10:06 PM
Great thread.
I personally would like to see the lava pit thing in EP 3.Obi Wan takes Anikin out(barely) and then Anikin is missing from the movie for the middle third of the film.
This time could be spent on Sidious being up to something and the birth of the twins ect.
Then for the the last third of the movie seeing a young Vader really kick a@@!!Really coming out of nowhere and seeing how the characters would deal with the mystery of this powerful and deadly sith lord.It would never be a surprise to the audience but it might be interesting to see the characters deal with the question of his identity.
Wipe out everyone except Obi wan Yoda and Padme'.They could then discover who he is.
They would all realize they couldn't defeat him so they all chose to seperate and hide the twins and wait and see how the chosen one prophecy plays out.Not exactly the wording i'd like but I hope you get the jist of my ideas.

stillakid
04-17-2002, 10:40 PM
Look, it's really simple. Ani and Obi fight. Obi walks away was Ani lays there, not quite dead, but seriously damaged. Obi goes back to Amidala, who has given birth in the meantime. With a stern face, he tells her what happened (that amplifies her "sadness" that Leia talks about in ROTJ) and says that the child (he doesn't know about twins at this point) must be hidden from the Emperor. End the scene with her nodding, saying nothing.

That's it. End of Ep III. We leave not knowing if Ani lives or dies. We leave not knowing about the twins. Enough time passes between Ep III and IV to more than justify all of the "off-screen" stuff that has to take place for Obi and Yoda to know all about the Vader transformation. This way the surprise (the surprises!) are left entirely intact, and Lucas can continue the tradition of the cliffhanger that started this whole thing.

What's the problem?

2-1B
04-18-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Why would our view of Ben's cover story change our opinion of him? One way or the other that is probably what he is doing in that scene. He didn't give it to Luke straight, as he later admitted to in ROTJ. So what is the difference between figuring out how full of it he is in ANH or eventually in ROTJ? Not much. His motivation is pure. He needs to take Luke with him.


Ben is in no way "full of it." I do not see him as a liar, maybe that's why we disagree on how this could go. :)

I don't think Ben covers up anything in ANH.
If we see Kenobi and Skywalker dueling in the prequels, we will obviously know the reasons that it came to blows. We will know that Anakin has turned to evil, otherwise why would they be fighting? Okay, so Ben leaves him for dead and the audience is led to believe that Obi-Wan killed him. Then Ben becomes a liar in ANH, because we "know" he killed Anakin and is indeed covering up something.

But he HONESTLY BELIEVES Anakin is dead, not because Ben killed him but because the Dark Side consumed Anakin and rendered him lifeless. He's dead and Darth Vader has been born. Luke's success in leading Anakin back to the good side flies completely against anything that Kenobi believed to be possible.

Considering stillakid's story idea . . .

Ani and Obi fight. Obi walks away was Ani lays there, not quite dead, but seriously damaged. Obi goes back to Amidala, who has given birth in the meantime. With a stern face, he tells her what happened (that amplifies her "sadness" that Leia talks about in ROTJ) and says that the child (he doesn't know about twins at this point) must be hidden from the Emperor. End the scene with her nodding, saying nothing.

That's it. End of Ep III. We leave not knowing if Ani lives or dies. We leave not knowing about the twins. Enough time passes between Ep III and IV to more than justify all of the "off-screen" stuff that has to take place for Obi and Yoda to know all about the Vader transformation. This way the surprise (the surprises!) are left entirely intact, and Lucas can continue the tradition of the cliffhanger that started this whole thing.

That could be a completely satisfactory ending to the prequels, as it does not reveal Vader's identity. We will "know" Anakin is dead by ANH since his son lives with his uncle. And we might very well believe Anakin to have perished at the hands of Kenobi. Then of course we know Obi-Wan is a complete liar, because we're pretty sure Anakin died at his hands. It all works out until Ben talks about this "Vader" guy, a "former pupil" who "turned to evil". Hmmm, Ben had another student? We've only seen one student (Anakin), and he turned to evil . . . so Ben must have lost a second one to the dark side too? Nope, if I'm watching the saga for the first time, 1 thru 6, I've got it figured out right then and there. The ESB revelation will not be surprising.

:)

Wolfwood319
04-18-2002, 01:16 AM
Enough time passes between Ep III and IV to more than justify all of the "off-screen" stuff that has to take place for Obi and Yoda to know all about the Vader transformation.

Is this the same "off-screen" stuff that some of us fans use to "rationalize" TPM? :rolleyes:

I couldn't see any reason to these prequels if we DIDN"T see Vader. I thought that's what these were about. This whole "surprise" defense just doesn't cut it, IMO. Sure, it was a surprise back in '80, but now its common knowledge. I can't see George making E3 and not having Vader in it for at least some period of time.

Taichi
04-18-2002, 09:11 AM
Well, Were it anybody BUT Luke, that wouldn't pass muster....

the events of ANH take place only thirty years after the events of TPM......

Why is it, that so much history is lost in those thirty years?.....especially Jedi History, which, since it seems like a secret Religious society, would be mostly verbal anyway?

Why would such important tenets like the fact that a teacher could only have one student, be erased from history? (And therefore take the EU in a COMPLETELY skewed direction?)......were that common knowledge, even for just Jedi, You'd think that some bystander would eventually pick up on this......and make a note of it..........

It just seems odd to me........I know the EU is being changed dramatically (And rightly so) by these three new movies........but there's still a lot that needs to change, before the Universe that was set down in the movies, coincides with the EU established in the books, comics, games, and other media........

until then, the EU will remain an AU to me........which I like just fine......because that means Boba Fett is dead........

stillakid
04-18-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


Ben is in no way "full of it." I do not see him as a liar, maybe that's why we disagree on how this could go. :)

I don't think Ben covers up anything in ANH.
If we see Kenobi and Skywalker dueling in the prequels, we will obviously know the reasons that it came to blows. We will know that Anakin has turned to evil, otherwise why would they be fighting? Okay, so Ben leaves him for dead and the audience is led to believe that Obi-Wan killed him. Then Ben becomes a liar in ANH, because we "know" he killed Anakin and is indeed covering up something.

But he HONESTLY BELIEVES Anakin is dead, not because Ben killed him but because the Dark Side consumed Anakin and rendered him lifeless. He's dead and Darth Vader has been born. Luke's success in leading Anakin back to the good side flies completely against anything that Kenobi believed to be possible.

Considering stillakid's story idea . . .


That could be a completely satisfactory ending to the prequels, as it does not reveal Vader's identity. We will "know" Anakin is dead by ANH since his son lives with his uncle. And we might very well believe Anakin to have perished at the hands of Kenobi. Then of course we know Obi-Wan is a complete liar, because we're pretty sure Anakin died at his hands. It all works out until Ben talks about this "Vader" guy, a "former pupil" who "turned to evil". Hmmm, Ben had another student? We've only seen one student (Anakin), and he turned to evil . . . so Ben must have lost a second one to the dark side too? Nope, if I'm watching the saga for the first time, 1 thru 6, I've got it figured out right then and there. The ESB revelation will not be surprising.

:)

I agree with you completely and totally on the "lie" area. Obi didn't "lie," he indeed told Luke the truth, from a certain point of view, just like he said in actual words in the actual movie. That's not conjured up speculation. He isn't lying left and right in the prequels so it doesn't seem to be his nature in the first place. There's never been any reason for anyone anywhere to see Obi Wan as some kind of evil manipulating liar as he's been painted to be.

You're right about the "one student" thing, however, if, (and now I'm completely running on conjecture that probably isn't true), we saw in Ep II and III Obi have even a few young "students" that he was in charge of, then it would all flow smoothly. I have no idea if that is in the plans, but in the end, it's a shame if GL chooses to destroy the surprises in the OT just to satisfy a superficial desire to show the "transformation" into the Vader costume.




Originally posted by Wolfwood

Is this the same "off-screen" stuff that some of us fans use to "rationalize" TPM?

I couldn't see any reason to these prequels if we DIDN"T see Vader. I thought that's what these were about. This whole "surprise" defense just doesn't cut it, IMO. Sure, it was a surprise back in '80, but now its common knowledge. I can't see George making E3 and not having Vader in it for at least some period of time.

Yeah, Wolfwood, it is, but there is a distinct difference in this case. (You know, this constant attempt to catch me in some kind of inconsistent argument is getting really annoying. My reasoning can't fall apart because it is built on actual story events. It's not a house of cards built on rationalization and conjecture) Anywayyyyy, this "offscreen" time period has been built into the saga purposefully. It isn't a fan(?) based invention to cover up mistakes that George has made. Revealing EVERYTHING by the end of Ep III entirely ruins any sense of cliffhanger ending (plus the surprises) that might have existed previously and more or less wraps the prequels up with a tight little bow. He can tell the story any way he wants, but there are better ways to do it, in my opinion. The purpose of the prequels isn't (or shouldn't be) to just see Anakin go down that road. There's a lot more of the story to tell. There are other characters doing other things in the story that have nothing at all to do with Anakin having a bad day. Again, if Lucas chooses to micro-focus the story on that one tiny aspect of the galactic turmoil, then it is a mistake, in my opinion, because that's certainly not the way he began telling the story in 1977 through 1983. If this saga was all about the downfall and redemption of Anakin, the climax of ROTJ would have been Luke saving his father, but instead, the climax is the Rebellion blowing up the Death Star. That! is the primary plot line with all the other stories from other characters lending support to it. Well, at least until now, apparently.


But, that's just my opinion. :rolleyes:

Jedi Clint
04-18-2002, 12:49 PM
I could have chosen a better description than "full of it". Ben told Luke what he had to, nothing more. He twisted the events of the past so as to negate taking responsibility for what happened to Anakin as he told these events to Luke. Yes I agree he told the truth......from a certain point of view. He intentionally left out information that may have caused Luke not to trust him completely or admire him as he did. Both of those factors were important because he needed him to follow him on an adventure away from the only home he had known and into a destiny he was probably to immature to accept at that point in time. It seems that every response to my point of view seems to be in black and white. I say there is a difference between alluding to Vader's identity and confirming it. Even if we figure out Ben's cryptic statements in ANH, we don't know for sure until Yoda (because you shouldn't trust the bad guy and neither does Luke) says, "Your father he is". His identity remains hidden behind a mask and unless he says "I used to be Anakin Skywalker", or someone says "You used to be Anakin Skywalker", or we see a transformation sequence.....then everything up unitl that point in ROTJ is an allusion.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I could have chosen a better description than "full of it". Ben told Luke what he had to, nothing more. He twisted the events of the past so as to negate taking responsibility for what happened to Anakin as he told these events to Luke. Yes I agree he told the truth......from a certain point of view. He intentionally left out information that may have caused Luke not to trust him completely or admire him as he did. Both of those factors were important because he needed him to follow him on an adventure away from the only home he had known and into a destiny he was probably to immature to accept at that point in time. It seems that every response to my point of view seems to be in black and white. I say there is a difference between alluding to Vader's identity and confirming it. Even if we figure out Ben's cryptic statements in ANH, we don't know for sure until Yoda (because you shouldn't trust the bad guy and neither does Luke) says, "Your father he is". His identity remains hidden behind a mask and unless he says "I used to be Anakin Skywalker", or someone says "You used to be Anakin Skywalker", or we see a transformation sequence.....then everything up unitl that point in ROTJ is an allusion.


I think that you are absolutely correct in everything you said, except for Ben's motivation in telling Luke what he did. You suggest that he's trying to dodge taking responsibility for it, which, in my opinion, isn't entirely the case. Why? Because he admits that "he was a pupil of mine, until he turned to evil." He implicates himself with that line without coming right out and saying, "Look, I f'd up and wasn't a good enough teacher to keep his training in check during the most dangerous part of it," or something like that. But that's essentially what he gets at in an eloquent manner befitting his idiom.

I think that his motivation for telling Luke the story like he does, is just like you mention, to inspire(?) Luke to take on the training and to blurt out the whole truth about Vader's identity at that moment would be an emotional attack on a naive farmboy. Having said that, there's no evidence whatsoever that Luke even knows who Darth Vader is, or that he exists at all. He obviously knows about the "galactic conflict" and all that, but, being exclusively from a backwater town in the middle of nowhere, he might be caught short on specifics...such as the principal players in the Imperial government, etc. etc. Luke offers no reaction when Ben says, "A young Jedi, named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil..." etc. etc. So, even if Ben did tell Luke about his father and Vader, Luke most likely wouldn't have understood the full implications of that anyway at that point.

2-1B
04-18-2002, 02:12 PM
Jedi Clint, I know exactly what you meant by "full of it". I think I was a bit unclear by combining that with the "liar" aspect, I meant that more in reference to bigB's perception of Ben's lying and misleading. I can't disagree with you about "alluding" to Vader's identity, I'm fine with the audience figuring it out early, only to have it confirmed fully by ROTJ.

Stillakid, I would say basically the same thing to you in this topic as well. Personally, if I never hear JE Jones' voice until ANH, I'm fine with it. I just don't think the surprises will be kept. Yes, they will still be there structurally but I doubt they will be able to retain the "shock" of ESB. I'm intrigued by your suggestion that Obi-Wan be seen with a group of young pupils. That just might work in preserving the "Vader, pupil" thing. I know that an apprentice and pupil are pretty similar in meaning, but to me Apprentice suggests a single student while Pupil seems more impersonal. I don't know, it's sure gonna be tough!

Thanks for letting me hop into the discussion, guys. :)

stillakid
04-18-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Thanks for letting me hop into the discussion, guys. :)

Hey, who let him in here? For that matter, who let me in here?! :rolleyes:

stillakid
04-18-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Stillakid, I would say basically the same thing to you in this topic as well. Personally, if I never hear JE Jones' voice until ANH, I'm fine with it. I just don't think the surprises will be kept. Yes, they will still be there structurally but I doubt they will be able to retain the "shock" of ESB. I'm intrigued by your suggestion that Obi-Wan be seen with a group of young pupils. That just might work in preserving the "Vader, pupil" thing. I know that an apprentice and pupil are pretty similar in meaning, but to me Apprentice suggests a single student while Pupil seems more impersonal. I don't know, it's sure gonna be tough!


Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Old Ben says, "A young Jedi, named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine..."

Back into that discussion from elsewhere over the importance of a single word, but his use of "a" when referring to pupil, and not saying "the pupil of mine" or something of the sort definitively suggests that Obi Wan most certainly did train more than one person at some point or another. So, ahem (he pushes forward with full realization of the potential ramifications of the following statement), if Obi Wan is not shown training other young Jedi within Ep's II and III, it will be yet another example of the prequels conflicting with the OT ------- unless Obi Wan trains young Jedi within the period between Ep III and IV, which would only be pure speculation by anyone in that event. It depends on how GL ends Episode III, with the state of the Jedi and the political situation, that will determine if any "offscreen" training is plausible.

(ducks, runs for cover...)

Jedi Clint
04-18-2002, 03:32 PM
Caesar,

I appreciate your understanding. I am just presenting possibilities. I was beginning to think I was loosing my ability to communicate my ideas effectively *whew* ;).


stillakid,

Yes, to inspire him. I see your point, that he actually did take responsibility. But as he made a slight distinction between "Anakin Skywalker" and "Darth Vader".....his admission was intentionally vague and slightly misleading. From Luke's point of view, he didn't fail his father, he failed some guy named Vader.

In fact, Anakin Skywalker wasn't "murdered". He became another person both in outward appearance and (for the most part) in mental composition, but he still exists. I agree that Luke probably had no clue what role "Darth Vader" had in galactic events past or present.

Your theory about having more than one pupil is not too far fetched. I won't go into detail because I know you are avoiding spoilers, but it may be necessary for the Jedi to A) make Anakin Skywalker a Jedi Knight allowing Kenobi to take another apprentice, and B) Change the rules so that a Jedi Master can take more than one apprentice after the events of AOTC.


I would disagree (just a li'l bit) with your assertion that if Kenobi doesn't have another new apprentice it will conflict with the OT. IMO it would simply change the context of Kenobi's statements. Once again he is simply telling a partial truth. "A pupil" Well how many did you have old Ben? If the answer is one, then he has some explaining to do. If the answer is anything else......he lied to cover his butt. Since he wasn't asked the question, he got away with his crafty tale of the past.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
In fact, Anakin Skywalker wasn't "murdered". He became another person both in outward appearance and (for the most part) in mental composition, but he still exists. I agree that Luke probably had no clue what role "Darth Vader" had in galactic events past or present.




From my point of view ;) , and the way I believe that script intended it, for all intents and purposes, Obi Wan truly believed that Anakin was "dead." He knows on an intellectual level that the body is still there and all of that, but even when Luke maintains his belief that "there is good in him," Ghost Obi Wan has a hard time with the idea. "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." So, truly, from Obi Wan's point of view, Anakin's mind really was killed by this other persona and most of the original body was no longer intact either.

So, if (when) that inevitable battle happens between Obi and Ani in Ep III, Obi has to leave that battle witnessing not only the physical damage inflicted upon Anakin which is leaving him close to death (from the audience perspective, if the surprise is to be maintained), but more importantly, we as the audience must believe that Obi Wan also views the personality (of the sugar sweet lil boy in TPM) of Anakin to be dead. This can be achieved partly during the fight itself, in the short aftermath (as we see a badly damaged Anakin sneer then close his eyes), then back at Amidala's place when he tells her what happened. That sequence could not include any dialogue that the audience can actually hear or else her character might be forced into a situation where she either knows the full truth or only half of it. Leaving her knowledge ambiguous isn't vital, but leaving the audience in the dark is.

The long and short of it is that maintaining the integrity of the Original Trilogy secrets won't be easy, but it is entirely possible if painted with a fine enough brush. The question is, does George have it in him to work that hard or will he take the easy road and just throw the broad strokes up on the screen?

bigbarada
04-18-2002, 05:05 PM
I think that in the beginning of Ep3 we will hear of (not necessarily see) the deaths of many Jedi in the Clone Wars, which have been raging on in between Ep2 and 3. The ranks of the Jedi are pretty much decimated, so many of the surviving Jedi must take up the slack. Thus Obi-Wan could take on classrooms of initiates similar to what we see Yoda do in Ep2. Anakin might get what is considered a "field commission" to Jedi Knight based solely on the fact that the Jedi are in trouble and need everyone they can get.

Also, as long as it is alluded to that some Jedi and Padawans are leaving the order to join the dark side, then we can assume in ANH that Vader was one of Obi-Wan's pupils and he did betray the Jedi, we just didn't see it on screen.

Lets play the splitting hairs game: ;)
Obi-Wan said in ANH, about Vader, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil..."

Notice Ben says "pupil" not "apprentice" or "padawan." To me this implys that Obi-Wan might have taken on the task of a Jedi Teacher who instructs many young Jedi hopefuls, as opposed to a Jedi Master who takes on one apprentice.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I think that in the beginning of Ep3 we will hear of (not necessarily see) the deaths of many Jedi in the Clone Wars, which have been raging on in between Ep2 and 3. The ranks of the Jedi are pretty much decimated, so many of the surviving Jedi must take up the slack. Thus Obi-Wan could take on classrooms of initiates similar to what we see Yoda do in Ep2. Anakin might get what is considered a "field commission" to Jedi Knight based solely on the fact that the Jedi are in trouble and need everyone they can get.

Also, as long as it is alluded to that some Jedi and Padawans are leaving the order to join the dark side, then we can assume in ANH that Vader was one of Obi-Wan's pupils and he did betray the Jedi, we just didn't see it on screen.

Lets play the splitting hairs game: ;)
Obi-Wan said in ANH, about Vader, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil..."

Notice Ben says "pupil" not "apprentice" or "padawan." To me this implys that Obi-Wan might have taken on the task of a Jedi Teacher who instructs many young Jedi hopefuls, as opposed to a Jedi Master who takes on one apprentice.


Good god, do we really agree on something!?:eek:

bigbarada
04-18-2002, 06:34 PM
By jove, I think we do!!

Anyways, in ref to Taichi's question waaaaaaay up there about how all of that knowledge could have been lost in such a short period of time. During WW2, the Nazis would burn books that conflicted with their political ideals and during all the bombings in Europe many works of art, literature and music were lost forever. In fact if I remember my history correctly, the main musical library for all of Europe burned to the ground. So there are now an unknown number of musical composers whose entire lifetime of work has been completely erased from human knowledge. Given that most knowledge in the Star Wars universe is kept on computers, that makes it much easier for the Emperor to completely erase and rewrite thousands of years of history. Think about it, how many kids in the US today give two craps about the American Revolution? If all written knowledge of the American Revolution was erased and rewritten would today's youth even notice?

Taichi
04-18-2002, 08:57 PM
Hmm true, but you'd think that it'd still be an incredible task to wipe the tenets of an entire RELIGION out of existance.......

first off, the Jedi used actual, physical books (Which will be seen in the Jedi Library in Episode II).....

second, let's just look at the facts:

Jedi, apparently are a well-respected, and well known religion, that being said, in the galaxy of SW, that means that there are a LOT of people who may not be able to be a Jedi, but believe in it nonetheless, because the evidence supports it.......now let's compare that to A (not the) Real world counterpart.....

Christianity.......this is also a well-respected, and well known religion, and even those who don't understand, or believe in it, respect it's teachings, and know the basic tenets of it.....

now, how hard would it be to wipe out all the information about Christianity?.....I'd say next to impossible......

the amount of bibles in the world is staggering, and even if you got the majority of them, a few would survive, and from those few, there would be more made (either handwritten, or printed) and the religion would begin anew (Kinda like the Jedi, only the Jedi is pretty much starting again from scratch.......Luke's Baptism is pretty much the only thing that saved the religion, and considering that he was the only one left, he definitely could've taken it (and did) in a new direction)

you cannot wipe out an entire religion, in the scope We're talking, in such a short time.........not to the point of extinction........that takes a LONG time.........I doubt you'd be able to wipe out one of the SMALLER ones in that amount of time......let alone the most prominent in the galaxy..........

Now, I am NOT a Christian.....despite what my sigline, and this post may imply (I'm just a fan of religious themes!).......and am not attempting to debase, or attack any belief.....I'm just using Christianity as a realistic basis, and example for my arguement.....

I don't think it can be done, and I'm sticking by that.......

I think it'd be impossible to wipe out all but two of a religion, no matter how hard you tried.........

but, another interesting comparison can be made at this point....

another man tried to destroy an entire religion, and while it took time, the people themselves rose up against him.........and eventually destroyed him.......this too, parallels SW.......however, SW seems to do it out in the open, whereas history shows us that it was done in secret.........I think had people known about it earlier, it would've been dealt with sooner........which is why I don't totally understand how the Emperor, and Vader weren't destroyed a lot sooner........thirty years is a long time to let something that terrible go on......I think if one, or a few people couldn't do it, eventually EVERYBODY would've had enough of the inhumanity, and despite catastrophic losses to the cause (Against just two people) would've eventually prevailed.....

You can't kill everybody in the galaxy.....which is why I wonder how Washington has managed to keep control for so long.......

well, that's enough of that.....hope it made at least SOME sense....

Jedi Clint
04-18-2002, 09:31 PM
I understand what you're saying.

The difference between the Jedi and a religion is that the Jedi are also keepers of the peace. They don't simply exist within the Republic. They are a functional branch of it, therefore they are supported by the governing body that they protect. They are also a rather exclusive club. Not just anyone joins the order. They also seem to be centralized on Coruscant. If their home base was destroyed, it would decentralize the order. As there are actual books in this central location it would also wipe out their primary knowledge base. It probably isn't an extremely public campaign against the Jedi. They will be looked down upon due to the circumstances of the clone wars. Once public opinion is against them, it will be easy pickings. Palpatine will maintain a quiet and constant effort to eliminate them. What is really clever about Palpatine's plan (in respect to this delima you present) is that the majority of them will lose their lives in the numerous battles of the clone wars. With both sides of the game being controlled by the same guy, the possibility of an ambush is likely where ever and when ever it is possible to destroy a number of Jedi. It is my guess that the Jedi are the founding members of the Rebellion against the Empire, and this act of rebellion against the newly deamed and beloved Emperor will allow them to publicly be marked for extermination (not that anyone will care by that time anyway). Bring bounty hunters into the equation along with monitary rewards for anyone who provides information resulting in the capture of a Jedi, and the situation becomes even more bleak for the noble knights. With their purpose eliminated, their temple and it's vast library destroyed and their numbers (which because of the order's exclusive nature are difficult to maintain in the first place) hunted to virtual extinction it is no wonder that their place in the galaxy is merely the stuff of rumor and legend.

stillakid
04-18-2002, 09:54 PM
There's no disputing any of that, so long as the time period between Ep III and Ep IV is long enough. How long is it supposed to be?

Think of it this way: if Luke and Leia are newborn at the very end of III and around 20 or so at the beginning of IV, that parallels our own generation and it's relationship to men who fought in WWII. Yes, there are records to help us, and we have presumably more survivors in our world than Jedi that survive in that, but even still, 20 years isn't really long enough to relegate Jedi to the "stuff of legend." Perhaps, if the time period were a century or three, then maybe, but 20 years seems too brief for all traces of them to be wiped out to the point where nobody really remembers them anymore.

Wolfwood319
04-18-2002, 10:30 PM
I always thought that there just weren't that many Jedi. Maybe a few hundred, at most. They're like the Old Republics CIA or FBI. But they also follow a strict "religious" code as well. And if enough get wiped out in AOTC, to the point where there are only a handful left by SW3, then it is conceivable to wipe them out completely.

Think about it. Palpy is building his own army, which the public sees. Meanwhile he secretly takes down what's left of the Jedi. Especially of the Jedi are no longer sanctioned by the Republic.

Then again, it does seem like in ANH, Jedis have long been extinct, longer than a decade or two.

Jedi Clint
04-18-2002, 10:37 PM
There were 10000 in the time of Qui Gon Jinn.

Many believe there is 2 years between E2 and E3, but I think it could be up to 5.

bigbarada
04-19-2002, 12:25 AM
There are only ten thousand Jedi in the timeframe of TPM, and from what I understand, that is the most in history.

Think about it, ten thousand to protect thousands of star systems and probably hundreds of trillions of citizens. I'd bet that 90% of the Republic's "commoners" have never even seen a Jedi in their lifetime. Using the assumption that the Republic has, say, 100 trillion people: that's over ten billion citizens for every one Jedi! Twice the population of Earth for one person!

In comparison, the US has around 250 million people with an Army of only 450,000. That's 555 Americans for every one soldier, and that is way too much.

Not hard to understand how most of the galaxy would begin to believe that the very existence of the Jedi was all propaganda. Thus convincing them that the Jedi were nothing more than a legend would be easy.

RooJay
04-19-2002, 12:35 AM
I'm with you bigbarada! For the record, I don't think it would've been that hard at all for the Emperor to have erased pretty much most information about the Jedi. I also don't think the ENTIRE galaxy had forgotten the Jedi; that much is never insinuated anywhere in the OT.

Taichi
04-20-2002, 04:31 PM
Actually, Baraba that makes perfect sense.......

and I fully support it when it is put that way........

SEE, I'm not above changing my views, when they're put into perspective........:D

stillakid
04-20-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Not hard to understand how most of the galaxy would begin to believe that the very existence of the Jedi was all propaganda. Thus convincing them that the Jedi were nothing more than a legend would be easy.

It's sounds kinda like the UN Security Forces. They're around the world...in principle, but as far as being useful tools to achieve real goals, well, I don't think that it ever works out as well as everyone hopes it will. From the trailer for EP II, Qui Gon says something of the sort, that they can't fight an epic battle like that. I think that maybe this is where an Episode I story should have taken us -- to a galaxy where everyone is living in utopian bliss and the Jedi are there to just show up at minor scuffles to say "nothing to see here, move on, move on." We don't know the pre-history of just how the Jedi worked or were perceived to know just how relevant they were to this society. It's kind of like, say, Jesuits for example, saying that they were pivotal in this society and everyone looking around all confused because their influence isn't really noticeable. So, are the Jedi really all that important to the society or are they self-inflating their own worth?

CooLJoE
04-25-2002, 04:25 AM
Well, here's my personal take on what should happen in EP3. Take in mind I've heard some leaked parts of the storyline and script for EP2 and EP3 (its all in who you know ;) ).

Ani and Obi will still be working together. Maybe not as teacher and student anymore, but I'm sure he'll still be giving him some basic guidance. Not sure how these next 2 parts will come into play or what order, though I'll tell it in the order I think it goes (been awhile since I talked to my source). Schmi will be killed/murdered. This will set a rage into Ani that will start his road to the dark side (remember what yoda said, fear -> anger -> hate - >suffering....basically ending in a turn to the dark side, reason to not train Ani). Ani will later find out that Obi and Padme were cheating on him (some have already scoffed at the idea in another thread about mara jade, but its what ive heard is in the basic scripts). This puts a full push into Ani joining Sidious who I'm sure we'll all be seeing as Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine during EP3. He might not be in the beginning, but will be before the end.

Ani will then fight Obi as revenge (as I'm sure Sidious will put the blame of schmi's death on Obi's hands or something along those lines). Ani will lose, not to the death, but very badly beaten. This will be when he becomes Vader. Probably won't show himself to Obi while hes Vader, but this will be near where it ends.

I feel that the best way to end it (and the probable way) will be for them to show Obi and Yoda hide Padme for care of the twins. They probably won't be born during the movie, but you will see Padme very much pregnant I'm sure. This would ensure that we know atleast one child will be born (Luke, duh....everyone knows it by now that Ani is Luke's father less you are amish or live under a rock). Not knowing its twins will keep the suspense of Leia being Luke's sister. And also not showing Vader confronting Obi will hold the suspense of Vader telling Luke the father line.

But I do think they will show Vader in the end. Maybe not fighting or battling anyone. And definetely not as the old man we've seen him to be in EP4-6. But they will probably show a younger Vader, one without the full mask and as a more energetic and powerful Sith, yet still keep his face hidden from the audience so not to fully spoil the idea.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by CooLJoE
Well, here's my personal take on what should happen in EP3. Take in mind I've heard some leaked parts of the storyline and script for EP2 and EP3 (its all in who you know ;) ).

Ani and Obi will still be working together. Maybe not as teacher and student anymore, but I'm sure he'll still be giving him some basic guidance. Not sure how these next 2 parts will come into play or what order, though I'll tell it in the order I think it goes (been awhile since I talked to my source). Schmi will be killed/murdered. This will set a rage into Ani that will start his road to the dark side (remember what yoda said, fear -> anger -> hate - >suffering....basically ending in a turn to the dark side, reason to not train Ani). Ani will later find out that Obi and Padme were cheating on him (some have already scoffed at the idea in another thread about mara jade, but its what ive heard is in the basic scripts). This puts a full push into Ani joining Sidious who I'm sure we'll all be seeing as Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine during EP3. He might not be in the beginning, but will be before the end.

Ani will then fight Obi as revenge (as I'm sure Sidious will put the blame of schmi's death on Obi's hands or something along those lines). Ani will lose, not to the death, but very badly beaten. This will be when he becomes Vader. Probably won't show himself to Obi while hes Vader, but this will be near where it ends.

I feel that the best way to end it (and the probable way) will be for them to show Obi and Yoda hide Padme for care of the twins. They probably won't be born during the movie, but you will see Padme very much pregnant I'm sure. This would ensure that we know atleast one child will be born (Luke, duh....everyone knows it by now that Ani is Luke's father less you are amish or live under a rock). Not knowing its twins will keep the suspense of Leia being Luke's sister. And also not showing Vader confronting Obi will hold the suspense of Vader telling Luke the father line.

But I do think they will show Vader in the end. Maybe not fighting or battling anyone. And definetely not as the old man we've seen him to be in EP4-6. But they will probably show a younger Vader, one without the full mask and as a more energetic and powerful Sith, yet still keep his face hidden from the audience so not to fully spoil the idea.


I could live with that. :) I hadn't thought of the Obi Wan cheating with Padme angle. I kind of like it. Adds more motivation to Anakin's anger. It's always about a woman. :rolleyes:

hango fett
04-25-2002, 07:33 PM
technicly, luke is not the last of the jedi. with training and time, leia can be too. thats what yoda meant when he said "no. there is another."

Eternal Padawan
04-27-2002, 08:43 AM
I think Palpatine will trick Anakin into believing ObiWan and Padme are in a relationship, but I don't think they actually are. A while ago, before Ep 1 came out, Lucas was comparing the prequel trilogy to Othello. In this case, Ani is Othello and Palpy is clearly the Iago character feeding him a line of bull.

RooJay
04-29-2002, 06:54 AM
I'd have to throw in my doubt that Padme and Obi Wan will be having an affair too. It just doesn't seem like that's where the story is headed in my opinion.

BillyJAck
06-09-2002, 05:29 PM
I was thinking will we actually see anakin put on the armor in e3 or will Vader just appear Because think about it wheres the surprise for the audience when VADER says "I am your father" I mean it won't have 1/ 10th the impact it did orginally.It will no longer be a big deal. Will lucas somehow mask this where someone watch all the movies will actually be surprised?

billy

chris
06-09-2002, 05:37 PM
i think this would be a cool way to do it, and it would preserve the surprise of ESB. But their are changes they would have to make, like when Vader calls Obi-wan his "old master" in ANH. If it works for Ep 3, it would be cool.

Laserbrain
06-09-2002, 11:38 PM
Personally, I think any fight scenes with a full-fledged Vader would be an awful way for Lucus to do a hack job on himself. We know what Vader is capable of, we've seen it before and it canít get any better. Until AOTC we didn't know what Anakin was capable of. This is his story.

We got to see the two Jedi whooped by Count Dooku in AOTC. Obi-Wan sustained traumatic injuries on his thigh and on his shoulder. He wonít be backflipping like he was in TMP, more likely heíll be hopping around and side stepping like his old self in ANH. Anakin has lost his arm and with that gargoyle of a new hand he wonít be using his lightsaber with it much. I foresee that Anakin will study the type II "lightsaber fencing" style specifically to counter Dooku who used the style with deadly results. I read on the official site that of the 7 styles of lightsaber dueling, that type II is the as impossible to master as it is to defend against. I think weíve seen evidence of the later, and Anakinís certainly up to the challenge of mastering a new style.

In the final battle I foresee no black armor and no red lightsaber, just Anakin reeling and doing his teenage angst thing like Luke did. The Sidious goads him into fighting Obi-Wan, who hands his butt to him. Remember that the light is stronger. An aggressively attacking Anakin falls into a molten pit and Obi-Wan saves him by pulling him out by his freaky mechanical hand. Very symbolic. While Anakin lies near death, Sidious then pulls down his hood revealing the whole plot, then a bunch of stuff happens and ultimately Obi-Wan escapes.

After we see baby Luke dropped off at the homestead, we see a scene in the newly commissioned Imperial Throne Room. The Emperor greets his new apprentice, who kneels before his master in all his hissing glory. He is then knighted as Darth Vader.

Eternal Padawan
06-10-2002, 11:20 AM
So Vader should show up the VERY end of the film with no explanation who he is or why he's there?

stillakid
06-10-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Laserbrain
Personally, I think any fight scenes with a full-fledged Vader would be an awful way for Lucus to do a hack job on himself. We know what Vader is capable of, we've seen it before and it canít get any better. Until AOTC we didn't know what Anakin was capable of. This is his story.

We got to see the two Jedi whooped by Count Dooku in AOTC. Obi-Wan sustained traumatic injuries on his thigh and on his shoulder. He wonít be backflipping like he was in TMP, more likely heíll be hopping around and side stepping like his old self in ANH. Anakin has lost his arm and with that gargoyle of a new hand he wonít be using his lightsaber with it much. I foresee that Anakin will study the type II "lightsaber fencing" style specifically to counter Dooku who used the style with deadly results. I read on the official site that of the 7 styles of lightsaber dueling, that type II is the as impossible to master as it is to defend against. I think weíve seen evidence of the later, and Anakinís certainly up to the challenge of mastering a new style.

In the final battle I foresee no black armor and no red lightsaber, just Anakin reeling and doing his teenage angst thing like Luke did. The Sidious goads him into fighting Obi-Wan, who hands his butt to him. Remember that the light is stronger. An aggressively attacking Anakin falls into a molten pit and Obi-Wan saves him by pulling him out by his freaky mechanical hand. Very symbolic. While Anakin lies near death, Sidious then pulls down his hood revealing the whole plot, then a bunch of stuff happens and ultimately Obi-Wan escapes.

After we see baby Luke dropped off at the homestead, we see a scene in the newly commissioned Imperial Throne Room. The Emperor greets his new apprentice, who kneels before his master in all his hissing glory. He is then knighted as Darth Vader.

Lucas could do it this way...if he wants to successfully and entirely BLOW every single entire surprise in the OT. (Except for Han hiding on the back of the Star Destroyer, but then again, he copied himself in AOTC, so maybe he already destroyed that one too.)

No dropping off babies. No guy in a Vader suit. Geesh.:rolleyes:

bigbarada
06-10-2002, 01:09 PM
Well, it's been about as confirmed as it can get right now that the Vader suit will appear in Ep3 in some form. Also that James Earl Jones will be needed to provide Vader's voice. Of course until May 2005 rolls around all of that is simply a rumor.

Personally, the "shock" of Vader's true identity wasn't really that big of a deal to me. Vader sacrificing himself to save the life of his son had a much greater impact. If you think about it (taking into consideration that GL wants the entire saga to now focus on Anakin) which scene is more important for the fulfillment of the story itself, not just for the shock-value of the audience?

Laserbrain
06-10-2002, 07:23 PM
No dropping off babies. No guy in a Vader suit. Geesh.
*********************************

I know, it sounds corny to me too but CNN ran story about the baby drop being filmed in Africa some weeks ago. I'll assume it'll be there but with the way GL likes to edit....

Besides, baby Luke has to show up on Dagobah and travel to Tatooine sometime...

Croaker
06-13-2002, 12:07 PM
This just in from DarkHorizons:

Star Wars: Episode III: David Prowse confirmed on British TV kids show "CBBC" that he will return as Vader and is rushing to get in shape in time.

One more confirmation that we will see him.

Jedi Clint
06-13-2002, 01:55 PM
That also means that we won't see any really extreme fight scenes with Vader (like Kenobi vs. Maul) , unless they get a stunt double for Prowse :rolleyes:. There is no way Prowse can pull that off....he is simply too old. Would they actually use a stand in for a guy in a suit that covers him from head to toe? Why wouldn't they just use the stand in for all that character's scenes?

This doesn't mean that he will be confirmed as Anakin Skywalker in E3.....just in case that is what you were suggesting ;)

RooJay
06-13-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
That also means that we won't see any really extreme fight scenes with Vader (like Kenobi vs. Maul) , unless they get a stunt double for Prowse

AHA! Very, very true! Of course, this still leaves room for Hayden in a transitional Vader suit.


This doesn't mean that he will be confirmed as Anakin Skywalker in E3.....just in case that is what you were suggesting ;)

It also doesn't mean he won't.

DeadEye
06-13-2002, 04:23 PM
I read that Form VII, used by Yoda and Windu, is the hardest to master.

RooJay
06-13-2002, 05:19 PM
:confused:

Laserbrain
06-14-2002, 08:08 PM
I read that Form VII, used by Yoda and Windu, is the hardest to master.***************

You did? Lemme do some surfing on that...

RooJay
06-14-2002, 09:55 PM
I'm sorry, I was just wondering what form 7 has to do with the discussion and whether or not we'll see Anakin become Vader?

stillakid
06-14-2002, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
I'm sorry, I was just wondering what form 7 has to do with the discussion and whether or not we'll see Anakin become Vader?

Roojay,

I too have no idea what they're talking about, but I found this:

http://www.sevaan.com/starwars/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=12&topic=105

It seems to have something to do with a video game or something.

The Overlord Returns
06-15-2002, 11:12 AM
Wow....this is one hell of a discussion.

Let's see.....

We most certainly will see Vader in ep 3. It's a perfect way to tie the two together. In the opening of ANH.....the audience should have an idea of what Darth Vader is before Luke does. Besides.....the secrets of the OT have long since been revealed. Everyone seeing the films in order are going to know that Luke is atleast related to Anakin via the fact that they have the SAME LAST NAME. Now, there is no reason for GL to show anakin becoming Vader (as in, showing the armour being fitted). That would be completely unnecessary. All we need to see is Obi wan defeating the evil anakin, and thinking he is dead. Afterwards, having "Darth Vader" destroy the jedi knights with the fledgling Empire, he is now there, present in both trilogies. The surprise, if you want to call it that, is still in tact (although, almost everyone I know who was too young to see ESB in theatres knew Vader was Lukes dad long before they'd seen any of the OT films, it's pop culture legend now.)

As for the twins, we'll most likely see the birth, and the separation. Again, it makes sense in the overall story to have it there. I also imagine we'll see yoda on Dagobah, preparing to wait for the "New Hope" to come to him. It's funny how the surprise in ESB of who yoda is is now ruined completely....yet no one seems to mind that one.

Other little things...such as how the jedi order and it's history is all but erased.....well..thats a no brainer. The empire obviously destroys all remnants of the jedi order as it takes hold. I'm quite sure the Emperor will manufacture a scandal that turns many citizens of the republic against the jedi order. When you get to things like why ben said " a pupil", well....now you're just debating the choice of words used. It's no indication that he had more than one. It's simply an indication that 25 years ago GL hadn't come up with the "jedi code" and the term padawan, end of story.

Laserbrain
06-15-2002, 12:51 PM
I'm sorry, I was just wondering what form 7 has to do with the discussion and whether or not we'll see Anakin become Vader?
*****************************************

I'm going by the premise that Anakin will become Vader only after he masters Count Dooku's style or form of lightsaber dueling. Anakin has no left hand to hold his saber anymore, so he'l have to study the one-handed technique used by Dooku, which he used against Luke in ESB.

But it is probably enough for a new topic...

Stillakid, thanks for the research. I was looking for "type" instead of "form." I don't think it originated in a video game though.

Eternal Padawan
06-15-2002, 03:17 PM
The different forms (I, II, III, etc) were brought up in the Episode II Visual Dictionary. But that's all irrelevant because they won't waste precious screen time showing Anakin LEARNING lightsaber techniques.

The main argument AGAINST showing Anakin become Vader is that it will ruin the revelation in ESB. That scene will still work cinematically because Luke doesn't know the truth. I've seen that scene hundreds of times and it still works for me dramatically even though I know Vader is Anakin. So there's no need to keep it a secret in III. Anakin WILL become Vader onscreen. To not do so unnecessarily hobbles the dramatic effect of the entire Prequel Trilogy.

DeadEye
06-15-2002, 05:25 PM
Actually, Anakin's right arm was cut off.

Laserbrain
06-15-2002, 08:12 PM
Well, whichever. Left or right, if he doesn't upgrade that hand he probably won't be using his saber with two hands anytime soon.

To further paint the picture of the final battle that creates Darth Vader, I found these unproduced concept sketches on Cinescape...

This is supposed to be "Vader's home." I'm not sure how they might work it in but it does kinda remind me of Count Dooku's hanger...

Lock&load:
http://www.cinescape.com/24/editorial.asp?aff_id=24&this_cat=Cut+Scenes+Archive&action=page&obj_id=34814


This is probably where the final battle will take place, deep inside Couruscant in Sidious' secret lair...

Lock&load:
http://www.cinescape.com/24/editorial.asp?aff_id=24&this_cat=Cut+Scenes+Archive&action=page&obj_id=34816

DeadEye
06-15-2002, 08:36 PM
Thanks for the pics! Looks good! :)

RooJay
06-16-2002, 06:26 PM
I don't recall anything in AOTC that would indicate that Anakin's mechanical hand wasn't fully functional. Just because it has no covering doesn't mean he can't use it. It's also a mechanical hand he uses later on as Vader, and a mechanical hand that Luke uses throughout ROTJ.;)

DeadEye
06-16-2002, 08:37 PM
Yes, but Luke's hand was 23 years more advanced than Vader's.

stillakid
06-16-2002, 11:01 PM
How many Midichlorian's does the average hand hold? Wouldn't Anakin's Force ability be diminished every time a body part gets lopped off? :confused:

derek
06-16-2002, 11:56 PM
i would guess hayden will be wearing a glove over his hand in episode 3, so we won't even see the mechanical hand on anakin.

and vader didn't have any problem force choking anyone with it in the OT.:)

RooJay
06-17-2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
How many Midichlorian's does the average hand hold? Wouldn't Anakin's Force ability be diminished every time a body part gets lopped off? :confused:

Not necessarily, if midichlorians are counted by density within the blood rather than actual quantity within the body.:)

stillakid
06-17-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


Not necessarily, if midichlorians are counted by density within the blood rather than actual quantity within the body.:)

Being that I am not a biologist nor a mathematician, I'm not clear on how that differenciation would matter in this instance. I'm open to correction on that.

If, for example, there are, hypothetically, say 100,000 Midichlorians evenly distributed throughout a Star Wars super-human's bloodstream, then roughly 1/30th of the total number of Midichlorians (a little over 3000) would be separated from the whole once a hand got chopped off. This would diminish the victim's ability to "get in touch with" the Force by 1/30th of his previous power.

But even if that isn't true, this seems to be:

Originally posted by derek
i would guess hayden will be wearing a glove over his hand in episode 3, so we won't even see the mechanical hand on anakin ...and vader didn't have any problem force choking anyone with it in the OT.:)

So my argument is made anyway without having to resort to any math! :) Midi's seem to be a useless addition to the saga.

2-1B
06-17-2002, 01:47 PM
Would his ability diminish after losing a limb? Maybe, but with such a high count he has a few midichlorians to spare! :D



The midichlorians represent force potential, after a decade of training I don't think he would lose a lot of his "power", one half of one arm shouldn't be a huge impact. :)

Also, if the density aspect is correct - I think it is since his cells all seem to have the same concentration - then in theory it shouldn't even matter if he loses an arm. The ratio remains the same.
Stillakid, Qui-Gon said the midichlorians reside in one's cells, they aren't flowing thru the bloodstream. With or without that arm, his midichlorian cell count remains the same. I don't think derek's quote makes your argument. :)

stillakid
06-17-2002, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Would his ability diminish after losing a limb? Maybe, but with such a high count he has a few midichlorians to spare! :D



The midichlorians represent force potential, after a decade of training I don't think he would lose a lot of his "power", one half of one arm shouldn't be a huge impact. :)

Also, if the density aspect is correct - I think it is since his cells all seem to have the same concentration - then in theory it shouldn't even matter if he loses an arm. The ratio remains the same.
Stillakid, Qui-Gon said the midichlorians reside in one's cells, they aren't flowing thru the bloodstream. With or without that arm, his midichlorian cell count remains the same. I don't think derek's quote makes your argument. :)


I see what you're getting at. The "ratio" remains the same per the overall mass of his body. The result is that his dismembered little finger still has more Force potential than the entire Council combined! :)

Still, hypothetically, say he loses both arms, both legs, and several original biological organs are replaced by mechanical ones, his overall quantity of Midichlorians will diminish to "normal" levels in the original body parts that he has left, reducing him to just a regular Joe eventually. No? Maybe? :confused:

Laserbrain
06-17-2002, 03:22 PM
Good point! Seems there aren't many one-armed Jedi around and Anakin appears to have been the first to use droid replacement parts in recent memory. Vader had the Dark Side making him stronger but I imagine what would have become of Anakin, or shall we call him "Stumpy," if he were to have suffered the same injuries and stayed on the side of the light.

I guess Stumpy would have been shipped off to the EU Agriculture Corps...

Heh...I wonder what would happen to the guy who called Vader "Stumpy"...


**************************************
So my argument is made anyway without having to resort to any math! Midi's seem to be a useless addition to the saga.
*******************************************

Which is where my creation theory comes from. Anakin and Palpy have to be genetically manipulated for it all to fit in...

RooJay
06-22-2002, 12:32 AM
Thank you for your explaination of what I've understood to be the case with midichlorian counts Caesar!

RooJay
06-22-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Still, hypothetically, say he loses both arms, both legs, and several original biological organs are replaced by mechanical ones, his overall quantity of Midichlorians will diminish to "normal" levels in the original body parts that he has left, reducing him to just a regular Joe eventually. No? Maybe? :confused:

If that were the case, then if Yoda were to say...have extra body parts grafted onto his frame then he could theoretically become invincible. However, I honestly don't think it works like that. Anakin's midichlorian count would still be the same if it is their density withtin the body that were counted, and not their shear number.

starwars92570
06-22-2002, 08:23 PM
well i was thinking that Obi Wan and Anakin get into a lightsaber duel and Obi Wan knocks Anakin into the lava and that's the last you see of Anakin. Not seen on screen Republic Droids pick the body and Palpatine turns Anakin into Vader. So that if someone sees Episode III before Empire then it will be a surprise but Obi Wan and Yoda sensed that Vader was Anakin.

Croaker
06-25-2002, 12:38 PM
Here we go kids...this ought to be the last word in this thread:

from DarkHorizons:
Star Wars: Episode III: George Lucas recently spilled some stuff about Episode III in issue #300 of Starlog magazine and The Force.Net has uncovered the details. Boba Fett fans will be happy as he WILL be in Episode III, but "his role definitely won't be larger...the next film takes place two or three years later, so Boba would only be 13 and still wouldn't fit in the suit". There was also talk about the big scene where Anakin puts on the mask - "The scene where Anakin does actually become Vader is pretty good [as written in Lucas' Episode III outline]. I mean, I like it. It's a little in the vocabulary of...I don't know how much I want to give away...but it's in the vocabulary of a time - of the 1930s and 1940s. It's a pretty neat little thing...and hopefully it's going to work".

stillakid
06-25-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Croaker
Here we go kids...this ought to be the last word in this thread:

from DarkHorizons:
Star Wars: Episode III: George Lucas recently spilled some stuff about Episode III in issue #300 of Starlog magazine and The Force.Net has uncovered the details. Boba Fett fans will be happy as he WILL be in Episode III, but "his role definitely won't be larger...the next film takes place two or three years later, so Boba would only be 13 and still wouldn't fit in the suit". There was also talk about the big scene where Anakin puts on the mask - "The scene where Anakin does actually become Vader is pretty good [as written in Lucas' Episode III outline]. I mean, I like it. It's a little in the vocabulary of...I don't know how much I want to give away...but it's in the vocabulary of a time - of the 1930s and 1940s. It's a pretty neat little thing...and hopefully it's going to work".


:dead:

Croaker
06-25-2002, 12:49 PM
Vocabulary of the time...30's and 40's ...sounds like he's doin some sort of Nazi thing...

Laserbrain
06-25-2002, 01:16 PM
"Itís a little in the vocabulary ofÖI donít know how much I want to give awayÖbut itís in the vocabulary of a time Ė of the 1930s and 1940s. Itís a pretty neat little thing, I think, and hopefully itís going to work."

:stupid:

Day-yam...uh....

Okay...by vocabulary I guess he means it will harken back to the war era news reels with their dramatic, sensationalist flare. Which is a good sign...a great sign! There's some potential for some awesome OT-like visuals inspired by those old news reels.

The prewar and postwar years conjures up images of depotism and subjection and of great wars for freedom from tyranny. Loaded with this information and the establishment of Anakin's far-right ideology, I can envision Anakin hovering over a planet, probably Naboo, with a navy at his command and ordering the planetís subjugation. Think of the scene where the Death Star destroys Alderaan with Anakin in Vaderís role (duh) and Padmeí in Leiaís place.

Then we see Padme' fighting back and kicking his rear out of the sector...okay...that's a stretch...

Laserbrain
06-25-2002, 01:34 PM
"There was also talk about the big scene where Anakin puts on the mask "

Don't take this line literally, it isn't in the actual Starlog interview. The reporter from DarkHorizons is adding his own sensationalism.

This happens to be a good place for it, but it adds to the confusion. Take it symbolically if you want though, giving the benefit of the doubt, to indicate the instant when Anakin turns to the Dark Side in the psychological sense. It doesn't mean Anakin will suddenly go parading around with a dark helmet, yelling at people...

CRAVENSboy
06-25-2002, 05:03 PM
I didn't know about the lava pit thing in the ROTJ book! I'm going to have to purchase it to read what else is in there!

Jedi Clint
06-25-2002, 05:54 PM
"The scene where Anakin does actually become Vader is pretty good [as written in Lucas' Episode III outline]. I mean, I like it. It's a little in the vocabulary of...I don't know how much I want to give away...but it's in the vocabulary of a time - of the 1930s and 1940s. It's a pretty neat little thing...and hopefully it's going to work".

Lucas likes how he wrote the scene where Anakin becomes Vader. He wrote it in the vocabulary of time - of the 1930's and 1940's.

I don't see how that caps this discussion. There is a difference in seeing how he becomes Vader and confirming that he is Vader. The explanation Ben gives Luke in ROTJ explains that as a result of their duel, Anakin emerged as Darth Vader. If he sticks with that, it is entirely possible that he can leave the audience guessing.

I have no idea what he means by "the vocabulary of time - of the 1930's and 1940's". Alot happened in the 30's and 40's, and I can't see how that really applies to Anakin turning into Vader. That statement should be explored further here.

Laserbrain,

I say Anakin's ideology is far-left :p

Laserbrain
06-25-2002, 07:52 PM
"Laserbrain,

I say Anakin's ideology is far-left "

"Left-wing" swings to the side of liberty while "Right-wing" leans toward social control and order. It's a complex issue and is further confused when popular leftist culture can and does in the United States lean toward abolishment of capitalism and establishment of socialism, which I consider I very naive since socialism gives more control to the government, thereby negating the side of liberty as a result.

Let's all jump in head first because it sounds cool!

But anyway...that's waaaay OT....please forgive me, I was illustrating a point...


" have no idea what he means by "the vocabulary of time - of the 1930's and 1940's". Alot happened in the 30's and 40's, and I can't see how that really applies to Anakin turning into Vader. That statement should be explored further here.
"

It's comparing the Clone Wars to WWII. Palpatine was always compared to Hitler with his political wrangling of the senate so it's natural to draw that comparison. Vocabulary when used in a symbolic sense describes a way of thinking or a perception rather than a bunch of words in a language.

So to discuss this, we'd have to think about how our grandfathers and grandmother who lived throught the time would percieve the transformation of Anakin into Vader. The reason I think of newsreels is because back in time before TV when it cost a dime to go to the movies, newsreels were the only way for footage of world events to get out people. Newsreels are considered by historians to be the voice of the WWII generation, so the images we'll see in EIII will be inspired by the old black and white footage.

I see two influences for the scene GL's talking about.

1. There's lots of old war footage of Hitler standing on a balcony screaming at Jews while troops goosestep in formation. Reminds me a lot of the final scene in ATOC while Palpy and the Loyalists watch the Clonetroopers load into their transports.

2. The moment before Anakin enters the Tusken camp he stops at the edge of the cliff then floats down. It's a very symbolic way of saying that he has "fallen from grace."

Combine those two visuals and I suspect you'll have the scene all laid out for you...

Unless GL means to go by saturday morning serials, then he may just have Anakin slap on a helmet and go "FULL POWER TO THE DEATH RAY!!!!!!!!!!"

Croaker
06-26-2002, 10:03 AM
We know that Haydn has been bugging George to let him wear the suit.
We know that James Earl Jones and David Prowse have been hired to play DV.

We now have a quote from George saying "the scene where Anakin actually does become Vader is pretty good"

I think that pretty much says that we will see anakin become Vader. He's written the scene - that means that we, the audience will see it.

Jedi Kit Fisto
06-26-2002, 12:53 PM
The Lucas quote about the 30's 40's thing, immediately made me think of Frankenstein...

Imagine Anakin on a 'Sith' operating table with Sideous as the 'evil scientist' bringing Vader alive :)

Laserbrain
06-26-2002, 03:44 PM
Well, I was thinking more symbolically. But a Frankenstien/Robocop/Terminator type scene...hmmm...

Kinda cheesey but hmmm....

It'll probably happen with Vader's Meditation Chamber. Anakin's torso goes in, the sphere closes, lots of steam and electrical arcs, the chamber opens....

da da da dut da daaah.....

Jedi Clint
06-26-2002, 07:57 PM
Perhaps it is a reference to the classic cliff-hanger ending.....leave the audience guessing.