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View Full Version : why does everyone dis TPM??????



ki-adi mundi's bro
09-02-2001, 08:11 PM
hey, at least lucas was considerat enough to do these movies so we can actually know how,when,why,and wheres of anikan and the others. i mean, the film explained how we meet anikan threepio, obi, yoda and everyone else vital to the OT...i just think we will be in for some good films in the next 3-5 years(or whatever)

Rollo Tomassi
09-02-2001, 11:48 PM
Everybody disses TPM because it falls short of the staggering expectations heaped on it by adoring Star Wars fans. If you were to compare it to The Blair Witch Project for example, it's a masterpiece of storytelling, but compared to The Empire Strikes Back, it's mediocre. Part of this is because no one knew what to expect when the new film came out and everybody had their own ideas on how the first chapter should play out. When it didn't people felt let down. The other part is that G.Lu is off his rocker and is surrounded by yes men and has become senile and thousands of other fanboy reasons why TPM "sucked"


...Plus it's fun to bash other people's work anonymously on the internet!!!

JEDIpartner
09-02-2001, 11:49 PM
People get a little too wacky about these films. They take things too seriously and don't just go along for the ride. So... they start to pick it all apart.. analyse it. Then it becomes less fun and starts to go bad on you. I think that's why.

2-1B
09-03-2001, 01:58 AM
When TPM was released, I was pumped, and my expectations were quite low. The result?
Well, after midnight madness, waiting all day to buy presell tickets, 3 showings on opening day (including midnight) and a total of 17 theatrical viewings --- I loved it ! And I hope to relive that excitement all over again this Spring.

However, the newest part of my enjoyment of the SW hobby includes discussing the positive and negative aspects of the films with other fans. Over 2 years after TPM's release, I am now detached from that excitement and can now look at the films from a more objective perspective. Sure there were things I would have done differently. Many things, in fact. And it's only recently that I started to comment on what I would have liked to have seen. It's not due to over analysis, it's just a matter of my personal taste combined with what I believe to be effective story components.

But I still love it, it's great fun! I too am saddened that some fans go over the edge. I will definitely question the effectiveness of certain decisions (see my thread on Anakin's age in TPM) but I will never resort to personal attacks on Lucas or his employees.

Whenever you read a post of mine that includes a dis or two, please don't interpret it as fan disappointment, but rather as a fun exercise of criticism!

Obi-Don
09-03-2001, 02:54 AM
Sure there is problems with every movie and story. People like to take things a part and point out the good with the bad,but I think that for most they Love it just the same.You can't always find, that one will be as good as the other.You have to find in the story what you like and go with it.I also think that most will be dissapointed with these new ones because of the darker aspect of the story.It will be great to have the whole story together to view and know some of the reasons and what lead up to ANH,ESB,ROTJ.That is also why I love the books following the movies.The story keeps on going just in real life,and with that you can make it part of your own universe.I know allot of people think I'm crazy for loving Star Wars like I do,but I also tell them that I know its only a story and and we all have our hobbies.Sports is just a game,but how many people do see getting crazy over it.It all comes down to what you are in to and what touches you the most.

JediTricks
09-03-2001, 07:16 AM
I think it's because people don't like the movie.

:D

As for me, I didn't expect much, and I was rewarded with even less than that. Here are the reasons I don't particularly like the film, in no particular order (remember, these are all "IMO"):
the film's pacing and editing sucks
I don't like the score
the characters are flat, wooden and not terribly engrossing
there's no real feeling of galactic history
Anakin seems far too young for what he's doing
Lucas gives cheap answers to just about every question from the classic trilogy about the past
Jar Jar is there with only one purpose - to have his dignity taken away and look foolish
the podrace felt like a kill of time, too many coincidences
too much "wink wink, remember this from the other films?" stuff
too much cartoony-looking CGI characters
too many silly-looking aliens with dopey and offensive speech patterns
an end sequence which had no real sense to it
motivations which either didn't match the sequences or just didn't exist at all

stillakid
09-03-2001, 10:49 AM
I'm with JediTricks on almost all of those points. Some people still don't get it. They feel like we're just whining and complaining looking for absolute perfection. That's not the case at all. Very few stories live up to that, even ANH.

The problem with TPM is that is was just plain bad storytelling. No amount of justification or rationalization or Star Wars-worship will ever change that. If ANH, ESB, and ROTJ had been mediocre, TPM would have fallen right in step and, while the story would have been just as lame, the visuals would match the rest.

Sure, it looks great. There are some quintessential Star Wars moments that make it exciting at times (when viewed out of context, I might add). But those moments are too few and far between. They are strung together with bad transitions, mediocre acting, silly and over the top plot points, and a huge lack of faith that the audience is capable of understanding subtleties. Maybe some people need to be beaten over the head with obvious dialogue...most however don't.

Look, I'd rather be praising the thing for it's brilliant continuation of the Star Wars saga. It's not my fault. I didn't make, I just watched it.

Starfig873
09-03-2001, 08:28 PM
Well although I loved the movie, everyone here has good points, and I just don't feel like fighting this battle over again. There are some of us who love the movie. There are some of us who hate the movie. Thats the way it is, thats the way it will always be. And there is no reason whatsoever to accuse anyone of not being a true Star Wars fan because of there positive or negative views on one or more of the movies. The movie just put people in a fix. I know people who just didn't get it, plus I know people that Ep.I turned them onto Star Wars. I just see Ep.I as the foundation of the whole SW building. Not much to it but its there and its important.

Darth Cruel
09-04-2001, 01:23 AM
Judging from the posts above (unless I misinterpereted them), it sounds to me like some fans believe that those of us who did not like TPM are disgruntled because we didn't get our way with the history of the story. Let me tell you that I couldn't care less about where the OT characters came from, how they got where they ended up, or who their grandsires are. If GL wants to make stormtroopers all clones of Boba Fett, I say more power to him. If he wants to make up midichlorians to explain The Force, I'm down for that.

But...when you think about ALL the money that GL made from the OT and what he should reasonably have expected to make from a GOOD version of TPM (My GOD! Think of how much money it would have made if it had been as good as it could have been), I don't consider it unreasonable to expect a well-written, well-acted, well-directed-in-general film. Particularly when you consider how much it costs to see a film today.

I don't dislike it because I didn't want Darth Vader to start out as a slave boy, or because there were Gungans in the movie, or because I thought Qui-Gon had a particularly bad attitude for what I believe to be the type of demeanor a Jedi should have, or because Darth Maul got killed in the end (GL knew he had a better villain than the main one...he had no choice but to write in his death to keep him from overshadowing Vader). I disliked it because I felt that a movie of that magnitude should have been on a much higher quality level. The OT raised the standard in the 70s/80s...TPM should have at least been in the upper quarter of the current standard.

When the OT came out, the vast majority of the acting was great. There were a few weak performances, but for that period, the acting was MOSTLY up in the 90 percentile. In TPM, the list of characters that were acted well is much shorter than the one of poorly acted ones. Obi-Wan's character was done well enough. Palpatine was done pretty well, but I can't think of another character that was WELL-ACTED. Even Samuel L. Jackson was mediocre, and he is a top-shelf actor.

The writing also left me a little empty. I don't mind the basics of the story, including the humor that was attempted. But it failed because it was poorly written. I didn't mind Jar Jar stepping in bantha poo doo but "Icky Icky Goo" was so stupid it ruined the scene. It would have been better if it had been left as a purely visual take and just a small shot of it as the camera drew back and panned away. The toilet humor in general was overdone. Anything more than one toilet joke per movie starts becoming tasteless. And way too much of the dialogue was just not very good..."Banal" to quote a much missed Sir Alec Guinness.

The editing was attrocious. There were two MAJOR problems with it. 1) It was too obvious when a cut scene went by. There were parts were the editing just made the next scene not quite fit at the end of the previous scene. One example I can use is the desert duel. The scene was so poorly edited that the whole thing just didn't flow smoothly. And 2) The material that GOT edited. Some good scenes were left out including one that is little known, but would have been funny, where a young Gungan has to run around the room while Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are talking to Boss Nass throwing fish back out of the barrier that keeps the water out of the city. This part is also an example of how the edited material might explain the the demeanor of the characters when their attitudes don't seem to quite fit the scene.

Yep. My expectations were huge. And anyone will will have one tough time convincing me that my expectations were unreasonable. The Oscars showed who did their jobs. I have been a fan since the first time I saw a trailer on TV when I was 12 or 13. Even TPM can't change that. But I cringe now when I wonder what EII will be like. I worry that I will be as disappointed as I was in May of 1999. My fingers are crossed.

evenflow
09-04-2001, 08:23 AM
I just hate the midichlorians answer.

Starfig873
09-04-2001, 11:33 AM
Darth Cruel, I must say that is an excellent answer. You clearly explained what problems you had with the movie without resorting to any form of griping.

Kudos to you. :p

And to all that griped/will gripe, good! Gripings a great form of communication too! :D
Lord knows we all need a good gripe now and then. :)

Darth Cruel
09-05-2001, 10:56 PM
Thanks for the props, Starfig...it is tough to compose a post like that without sounding whiny. I'm glad the intent was clear.

The 'Xir
09-08-2001, 02:39 AM
I'm starting to think that people don't have anything better to do until EpII comes out! I also think they like to gripe about EpI, just to **** off those who liked it! I could be wrong!:rolleyes:

I have a hard time agreeing with any of the technical points that people have brought up! I just don't know where they're comming from, and think the Story is pretty simple/easy to follow!

Remember the editing crew is the same group pf people that GL brought over from 'The Young Indiana Jones Chronicals" that everone praises so much! What?, did they just forget how to do their jobs and everything else they have done in their careers on this movie? I think...Not! One of the few/only real points that I wish they had done better with, is explain where Anakin got that cut on his arm from! The only thing In my mind about the movie that kind of came from left field, although with a little imagination, it's not hard to overlook!

JediTricks
09-08-2001, 08:20 AM
I didn't enjoy the Young Indy Chronicles, I found it boring and insulting to the predetermined Indiana Jones character. I don't remember the editing there because it was just TV-movie editing, not exactly something to watch out for, but the producer sure does feel the same. Fraggin' McCallum!

stillakid
09-08-2001, 04:36 PM
Oh brother. It's funny how you can calmly express your opinion, back it all up with hard and fast facts, and still people think that your just complaining because there is nothing better to do.

You know what? You're right! ...and the world is flat, the moon is made out of cheese, Newton was wrong about that apple.

bigbarada
09-08-2001, 04:52 PM
Strangely enough, most people I've met who are only casual Star Wars fans and could really care less if another movie comes out or not, think that Ep1 is the best movie of the saga. I think mainly because it's new.

Of course I've heard many arguments from people as to why ESB is the worst movie because "movies are supposed to have happy endings." Or ANH is the worst because "the graphics look like crap." These are actual quotes from real people, now.

I've also seen a lot of people who are SW fans solely because of Ep1. In my experience it's been mostly teenage/young adult boys who dig the Jedi or Sith and teenage/young adult girls who love Queen Amidala. This is just in my personal experience, and by no means an attempt to pidgeon-hole people.

My question is, who's to say that we're right and these people are wrong? Star Wars is such a vast, deep universe that two people could consider themselves hardcore fans and have absolutely nothing in common.

I've started to see a disturbing trend I call the 'disgruntled Star Wars fan.' Basically a fan of the OT who actually resents all the attention paid to the prequel trilogy. I'd be the first to agree that the OT was the greatest series of movies ever made, but the adoration by the public can't go on forever. Eventually SW will slip into obscurity just like all other great literature/music/theatre of the past. It's a hard fact to accept but inevitable.

2-1B
09-08-2001, 06:18 PM
Don't worry bigbarada, most Star Wars fans are actually quite "gruntled" !

Starfig873
09-08-2001, 08:31 PM
We........all live in......a....yellow....sub...marine

Now sing that like William Shatner and lets all have a good laugh. :D

This is probably the 100th post on the debate about TPM. I'm certain most of us know what side we are all on. And yet...I must ponder what Attack of the Clones will do to change opinions...

stillakid
09-08-2001, 10:32 PM
In the LA Times yesterday or the day before, there was an editorial cartoon which showed our governor dressed up like a Jedi holding a lightsaber. Now, true, Star Wars will eventually fade from memory, but its demise will be hastened by the subsequent poor quality of its descendents. At the moment, the lore of the saga is deeply engrained into our culture from politics to pop-culture. The reason being is that the 1977 film was just so good that people like it just as much today as they did back then. Remember, that's over a 20 year period! How many films from 1957 still held audiences spellbound in 1977? There are only a handful of films that can claim the kind of influence that Star Wars has had on society.

That is the reason that TPM was such a disappoinment to so many people. The bar was set so high that it was only natural to expect something nearly as great. Visually, yes, it was fantastic, but that's the nature of technological advances in image acquisition and special fx. The elements of story haven't changed, though, for thousands of years now. Some people don't mind letting plot holes and substandard dialogue go just as long as there are pretty pictures to distract them. That's their choice to be easily entertained. That doesn't make the movie any better.

It's like meeting a smokin' hot gorgeous yet stupid blonde. Sure, at first you're all over it, but just how long can you stand listening the banal squelch of her voice and the superficial conversation?... Especially when you've seen her not exactly as beautiful, but hot nonetheless (read: 1977 Star Wars fx into this analogy) sister who you could talk to for the rest of your life.

Yeah, everybody has their own opinions. Go ahead and like the TPM. Put it in your top ten list. But why on earth would you want to when you know that it could have been (and more importantly, should have been) so much better?

That's why everyone "dis's" The Phantom Menace.

bigbarada
09-08-2001, 10:52 PM
I remember just recently watching the AFI top 100 films. My brother was totally annoyed that TPM wasn't even nominated; but I knew why. I understand that TPM was substandard as movies go, but I still enjoy watching it; mainly for the visuals. Just like when the OT first came out on video, I watched ROTJ once a day for like two months. However, once the Special Editions came out and it sort of leveled the playing field, SP/FXwise, I finally understood that ROTJ was truly a sub-standard SW movie. I have a feeling that when AOTC comes to video I'll feel the same way about TPM.

But then again, I still enjoy watching all those cheesy 1950s sci-fi and Godzilla movies. Especially 'Plan 9 From Outer Space' what a great flick!

"Modern women, they've been like that throughout the ages."

:D :D :D

I'm actually proud of the fact that I'm not a movie connoisseur.

stillakid
09-08-2001, 10:55 PM
I have fond memories of films like Logan's Run and Saturday Night Fever. But it's much better to leave them as fond memories. I made the mistake of rewatching them. What was I thinking back then? Ah, to be young and ignorant again. Age ruins us.:rolleyes:

bigbarada
09-08-2001, 11:54 PM
You know, if not for well-thought out, intelligent arguments from people like stillakid, Darth Cruel and others I would still believe that TPM dislikers were just a bunch of hard-headed, whiney brats. I'm not saying I'm converted mind you, I'm just glad to hear some intelligent arguments outside of "it sucks" or "I hate it."

GNT
09-09-2001, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I watched ROTJ once a day for like two months.


Man you have problems ;)

I think the only thing wrong with TPM was that it took parts from other movies which makes it kinda cheap in my mind, but I still like it,George is un creative!

Starfig873
09-09-2001, 07:06 AM
Plus hes old. Geez how old is he gonna be once these things are over? Like 60 something. THEN everyone wants him and Speilberg to make a danged Indy 4. We should just detach his head now and start preserving it for future uses... :p

Brave Sir Robin
09-12-2001, 05:01 PM
Although TPM is not one of my fave Star Wars movies (actually it is not even one of my favorite movies at all) it definatley did not suck. Ok, Jake Lloyd cannot act, and, ok Jar Jar Binks is the cutesey, bumbling sidekick straight out of a Walt Disney film, but come on! it is still a good movie. I don't see how anyone could fail to be impressed by such awesome creatures, cityscapes, costumes (Queen Amidala's wardrobe should have won the film an Oscar and I truly mean that), John Williams' score was awesome, and Darth Maul is just the sultan of cool. I just loved that double lightsaber-wielding badass! He is so cool!
The Phantom Menace was a good film.

stillakid
09-12-2001, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Brave Sir Robin
Although TPM is not one of my fave Star Wars movies (actually it is not even one of my favorite movies at all) it definatley did not suck. Ok, Jake Lloyd cannot act, and, ok Jar Jar Binks is the cutesey, bumbling sidekick straight out of a Walt Disney film, but come on! it is still a good movie. I don't see how anyone could fail to be impressed by such awesome creatures, cityscapes, costumes (Queen Amidala's wardrobe should have won the film an Oscar and I truly mean that), John Williams' score was awesome, and Darth Maul is just the sultan of cool. I just loved that double lightsaber-wielding badass! He is so cool!
The Phantom Menace was a good film.


Everything you mention has to do implicitly with the production design. If you carefully reread the above comments, you'll find that nearly everyone agrees that those classic Star Wars elements are up to par. The major complaints have to do with the story itself, the plot, and the plot devices that were utilized. The bottom line is that it is nothing more than a pretty picture with no substance. It's your perojative to judge a film based on nothing more than superficial qualities. Some of us demand and expect more.

Lobito
09-14-2001, 03:04 PM
I never saw the trailer b4 watching the movie, no spoilers for me, so imagine my surprise when i saw TPM. I really liked it, a lot, but somehow it didnt have the magic of the original trilogy. Thats my opinion.

2-1B
02-19-2007, 07:51 PM
Plus hes old. Geez how old is he gonna be once these things are over? Like 60 something. THEN everyone wants him and Speilberg to make a danged Indy 4. We should just detach his head now and start preserving it for future uses... :p

And to think they're finally getting around to making Indy IV, now ! :eek:

I don't think another Indy is really necessary, but then again I'm not that huge a fan of the franchise in the first place. Temple of Doom was my favorite.