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View Full Version : What's the deal with ROJ?? (merged thread)



Jon
04-19-2002, 05:49 PM
For a long time Return of the Jedi was my favorite of the 3 orginals. The older I got, 25 now, I began to appreciate all the story in ESB and that one is my favorite now of the 4. Let's see if AOTC can compete with it in a few weeks. BUT, why do so many people think A New Hope and Empire were so great, but Return of the Jedi was merely ok. I just want to know what makes it so much worse than the others. SO please enlighten me.

Dryanta
04-19-2002, 07:40 PM
Hey Jon.Sorry I can't enlighten you any because I really don't understand it myself

187-Maul
04-19-2002, 07:53 PM
don't understand it too! I usaualy liked ANH and ROTJ more then ESB cause I don't really like Hoth cause it's too white! everything there is so blending white! but I watched it today again and I really love that movie, too now

sith_killer_99
04-19-2002, 11:11 PM
I experienced this too.

As a kid I LOVED Jedi, IMO it was the best of the 3! As I got older I came to appreciate Empire more, and it is now my favorite of the 3.

I agree with the whole Hoth thing. When I was younger it was too over the top. Now I really appreciate the whole "Battle of Hoth"! Perhaps, when I was younger I just did not appreciate the intricacies of the movie. The battle on Hoth, the story lines, or even the way Lucas played out the whole Han/Leia thing. I just didn't think about stuff like that at 6 years old or even 9 (when Jedi came out).

But then, Lucas REALLY tailored to the kids when he made ROTJ! Remember when wearing all black was still cool, I think you have to be under a certain age to believe that one! And EWOKS, remember when ewoks were cool little furry dudes, instead of annoying little fuzz balls!

Here's a little theory:

ROTJ=TPM, geared towards kids, an all around FUN movie. (Ewoks=Gungans). Death Star II gets destroyed end of battle, Droid Control Ship gets destroyed end of battle!

ESB=AOTC, a bit of a love story. Han/Leia=Ani/Amidala. Huge ground battle. (Arena Battle=Battle of Hoth)

ANH=EPIII ?
Just a theory!;)

snakeplkn
04-19-2002, 11:23 PM
Jon,

Interestingly enough Return of the Jedi was my favourite film, until last month, the Empire Strikes Back has taken over. When I can't find something good on the television, I'll play a video for about 30 minutes or so and watch the movie over the course of a few days. So in the past few months, I have watched all 4 films again.

Why Return of Jedi has dropped to number 3 on my rankings ...

--You can immediately tell the writing is so much stronger in The Empire Strikes Back. The dialogue and characters are much developed in Empire than Jedi. C-3PO, Han Solo, and Darth Vader are glaring in how their characters somewhat reverted backwards from Empire in their actions and talk.

--The story, the story, the story. The Rebels are on Hoth for a reason, the introduction of Dagobah comes at a critical stage in Luke's life, the asteriod field serves as a platform for Han and Leia, Bespin acts as the catalyst for the climax. Empire flows better. However Jedi, we have Solo's rescue, Yoda immediately dies (can Lucas do something better than kill off a character if he has no use for them) and then suddenly the Death Star II is forced on us, before long the Emperor has decided to put himself in harm's way, and most importantly teddy bears are defeating a legion of the Empire's best troops.

--The relationships. A New Hope and Empire have lots of tension between Luke, Han, and Leia. Empire manifests itself the most with Han and Leia emerging to love another before Han is frozen in the carbonite. By Jedi, nothing more develops than Luke's revelation to Leia that they are brother/sister, despite the fact of their previous actions to one another in the other movies. You would think there would be a more surprise element in Leia than "I always knew."

--Darth Vader. Darth Vader is shown in A New Hope and Empire as merciless, just slaughtering anyone who stands in his way or fails him. By Jedi, somehow the "good" in him emerges, he forgets all officer ranks, and when fighting his son, just falls down as if he had a heart attack. With Empire, he cuts off Luke's arm and still wants Luke to join him. I think there should have been more examples of the previous Anakin Skywalker within Darth Vader than he switching sides only when Luke is about to die. Until Luke decides to turn himself in, I don't see any compassion in Darth Vader.

Well there's more, but that's my take. Like I said, Return of the Jedi used to be my favourite, but it's fallen out of favour as I have grown older too. We can only hope that Episode II can not only redeem its name, but the Star Wars legacy.

Snake Plissken
"A little human compassion"

hamsterboy
04-20-2002, 02:04 AM
The only thing I can think of is that with ROTJ,everything seemed to be hurried.

chewie
04-20-2002, 07:07 PM
Ewoks... And it wasn't just because the Ewoks were all cute and fluffy, but that they could actually whoop up on stormtroopers who have blasters and armor. Now stormtroopers have been shown to be horrible shots and ineffectual armor in the previous two films, but to be beaten by little teddy bears with spears, hammers, bolas, and arrows? Very bad. :)

Also Leia being Luke's sister (though it was already hinted at in ESB).

And yet another Death Star. Now this isn't a very bad idea, but a new Death Star isn't exactly an original plot device to end the series.

Oh yeah, and also the silly Ewok song at the end of the original version of the film.

As for the extra stuff that was added in the special edition... The CGI Sy Snootles & Joh Yowza singing. Looked and sounded very out of place to me.

And that crummy new ending. The lame new song and the re-used CGI scenery from the previous films (it looked like stock footage because of that). I prefer the old ending to this actually.

And none of this was really that bad or terrible, and didn't detract much from me for this film, but it is why this film is #3 on my list of Star Wars flims.

Starfig873
04-20-2002, 07:43 PM
Nonetheless I still like ROTJ. The score to the film is absolutely wonderful (including the new ending theme mind you, though I'll always have a place in my heart for "Yub Yub" :p)
Jabba the Hutt always made it good watching for me. And the ewoks? Not my favorite critters in the SW Universe, but they certainly don't bother me to the extent that they do many others. Silly in my opinion, but hey I'm just a Starfig. :cool:

dr_evazan22
04-21-2002, 12:34 AM
I like the new theme as well, although I still like "Yub Yub" also. "Jedi Rocks" will NEVER replace "Lapti Nek" though.

stillakid
04-21-2002, 12:55 AM
In my opinion, ROTJ was the most cartoony and superficial of the bunch (at least until TPM).

By far, ANH was the best movie overall. I think that it benefited greatly by being produced as a stand-alone film, which gave it an epic flavor while remaining personable and accessable to a wide audience. It has a very realistic feel to it that makes you believe that this place does indeed exist out there somewhere.

ESB comes in second. While it did have more developed characters, the film suffered from a detachment and impersonal feel throughout most of it. I credit this to the distinctly Canadian documentary style of filmmaking by director Irwin Kershner. The best moments are easily attributed to the rich writing by Lawrence Kasdan, who has an impressive body of work himself. The gritty reality of ANH begins to fade in this one, but that may be because of the very exotic (inaccessable) locations and directorial style that brought them to screen.

ROTJ really became a caracature of everything in the Star Wars universe. The colors are brighter and the production and effects are slicker. The gritty edge is lost, both in the locations and somehow in the characters. Everything comes off very calculated and precise. The filmmaking struggles so evident in ANH are not present on the screen for this, the last of the original trilogy. The best kind of filmmaking tends to come out of adversity and it is clear that Lucas had the road paved for him on this one.

If there were fewer obstacles for Lucas to overcome in ROTJ, there were virtually none when he produced TPM. There was no hurdle that money couldn't solve, when perhaps a little youthful filmmaking ingenuity might have been a better solution. The characters are wooden, the story weak. The FX look spectacular, but often fail to blend into the very real on-location shots.

So, the unfortunate trend for many filmmakers is that the more money and freedom they have access to, the worse the quality of their efforts get.

Judging purely on the trailers and the bits of information (non-spoiler) that I've heard about EP II, I expect that the effects will be, once again, amazing yet will fall short blending in seamlessly. I suspect a broader, more epic scale from this one with some of the better aspects of character development we saw in ANH and ESB. Only actually viewing will tell whether Lucas falters on the screenplay once again, choosing to take the easy road out and write with big broad strokes instead of delicately blending the storyline with the original trilogy.

JediTricks
04-21-2002, 11:59 PM
ANH is my favorite, but ESB is my choice for "best SW movie". When I was a kid, ROTJ was my favorite because "the good guys won and Luke was cool", but as with ketchup on my hotdogs, my tastes refined and I took a good look at ROTJ and here's what I didn't like:

- The pacing sucks, the film starts strong and then fizzles out.
- Yoda's death feels pointless and longwinded, it's like 3 of Hamlet's soliloquy on Nyquil.
- The whole 2nd half feels like pandering to the kiddies; the teddy bears defeating the Empire had no real impact except to sell SW-brand teddy bears.
- The impact of "tech-free" nature-lovers defeating "tech-loving" imperials could have been driven home just as effectively by Wookiees, and had a second note of "slaves helping to overthrow their masters".
- The battle scenes feel forced at points, Han never seems to take the battle seriously and his troops are just background scenery.
- Many new characters are little more than set decor, especially in Jabba's palace.
- The final battles are interwoven poorly, the most interesting and exciting scenes for me (Emperor/Vader/Luke) are stripped of all their essence by intercutting with Han's boredom and Lando's thin tactics.

There's more, but I really think that's enough.

chewie
04-22-2002, 03:20 AM
- Yoda's death feels pointless and longwinded, it's like 3 of Hamlet's soliloquy on Nyquil.

Heheh. How could I have forgotten to include this? I feel like saying "Just die already!" with the slooow agonized speech Yoda gave Luke when watching this part.

stillakid
04-22-2002, 10:09 AM
I always felt that the death scene was rather sudden. The lil guy is up making dinner and not 3 minutes or so later he can barely get a word out of his mouth.

eliwankenobi
04-24-2002, 03:42 PM
When I first saw ROTJ, it immediately vaulted up to the "best movie ever" spot, and stayed there until the late 80's. When I was little, I never cared for ESB, and ANH as the 'original' is just untouchable. I really liked the Hoth Battle - the AT-ATs and Snowspeeders were just cool (pardon the pun). But I hated Yoda, I didn't buy the Vader-is-Luke's-father thing (I later overcame this by ROTJ), and I thought the ending was horrible (Han?).
Later as I grew up (for which I'm still in denial), I began to appreciate ESB so much more than the other films. As before, I really liked the Hoth Battle just because it was so different. Lots of movies have space battles, but this was one on the surface of an ice planet! I've never grown to be a big fan of Yoda, but I grew to appreciate his method of instruction and his outlook on life and the Force.
The thing that really turned ESB into my fave of the series is the character development. ANH was as basic as it could be - good guys, bad guys. We liked Luke, Han and Leia for the goodness they portrayed. We hated (or loved) Vader for the evil in him. Black and white. ESB took those black and white characters and gave them color and depth, and gave us a reason to like and/or dislike each of the characters for who they were. When I look at ROTJ now, I see this depth is gone. Leia lost her feistiness; Han was just blah, flat (maybe due to being carbon frozen); and Vader was no longer 'the ultimate bad' but just a servant cowed by the Emperor.
I thought that ROTJ was a good story if a bit rushed. The Sarlacc Battle was cool, but I would've liked to have seen more of the Luke/Vader duel and Death Star Battle than watching a bunch of Ewoks get BBQ'd.

bobafett07728
04-24-2002, 03:57 PM
I always liked ROTJ, but it was definitely geared more towards a young audience. Oh well. . .the Ewoks weren't all that bad. . . and the rest of the movie still rules. However, I really think they dropped the ball with the SE. The "Jedi Rocks" nonsense was horrible! The new St Snootles just doesn't fit in, and that other guy. . .why? I never really grew attatched to the Ewok closing theme, but I saw no need for removing it. The new closing theme was nice, but the new scene around the bonfire was ridiculous. It was so obvious that it was added after the fact. . . it seemed like they didn't even put any effort into it. The scene of Coruscant was well done, but why the one X-Wing Pilot dancing around? Where are the rest? I watch the SE's all the time, but I've never used my Jedi SE. I saw it in the theater, and that was enough. Hopefully in the DVD version, you can choose one or the other, or a combination of scenes from the two. Let's see that "lost" sand storm footage too. . .eh?

scruffziller
04-25-2002, 05:05 PM
What I like about ROTJ is the contrast of Luke is in ANH vs ROTJ.
It's so cool to see him a full blown Jedi.

Lman316
05-23-2002, 12:07 PM
I've got to ask why. I mean, ROTJ is still my favorite (AOTC might pass it, but I've got to see it a few more times :D).
Is it because of the Ewoks? The fact that Luke and Leia are revealed as siblings? What? I don't understand why so many people have a problem with this movie.
Oh, and one other question, what is this about Chewbacca and the Ewoks? I heard something about Chewbacca and that he was supposed to be from Endor - can someone please elaborate on that for me?

187-Maul
05-23-2002, 12:13 PM
well there already was a thread containing the presumed dislike of ROTJ seen here http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6498
I personally like all of the movies and even love episode1 after one-billion times watching it

Pendo
05-23-2002, 12:18 PM
I don't hate ROTJ. Infact I actually LOVE it. I can't get enough of it. It just isn't the best in the series. TPM is the worst in the series and I still like that.
ROTJ just seemed to have a lot more bad points than ANH and ESB had...the Ewoks for one,
It's a muppet show for another (but I actually prefer muppets to CGI),
and The Ewoks for a thrid point. Oh, wait I've already said them...

PENDO!

Jonna
05-23-2002, 12:21 PM
I love the first half of the movie, but the Ewoks ruin the second half for me. They are just to overly cute.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 12:42 PM
The Space battle in ROJ is the coolest battle sequence in ANY Star Wars movie. I wish they could show more of it.

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 06:26 PM
The only thing that really hurt ROTJ in my mind was the "revelation" that Leia was Luke's sister. First Vader is his father in ESB, then Leia is his sister in ROTJ; it's a good thing that the series didn't continue after ROTJ as Han would have become his long lost brother and Chewie his runaway pet dog. (of course Ep1 did introduce the "Anakin created Threepio" thing :rolleyes: The only real problem I had with Ep1 )

Taichi
05-23-2002, 07:42 PM
I don't care what people say about ROTJ, or even the SE ROTJ

these movies rule, and simply being part of the saga makes them (IN MY MIND) above criticism

that being said, I loved every bit of the SEs, EVERY BIT.....

Jedi Rocks is my single most favorite scene in the entire trilogy.....

and I think "Greedo Shoots First" is a good idea.....

and I liked the inclusion of the Jabba Scene.....

yes, I am a TOTAL SW fan......I like the OT in it's original version as well, and if GL doesn't give us BOTH versions on the DVD, I'll be VERY upset......

Lman316
05-23-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Taichi
I don't care what people say about ROTJ, or even the SE ROTJ

these movies rule, and simply being part of the saga makes them (IN MY MIND) above criticism

that being said, I loved every bit of the SEs, EVERY BIT.....

Jedi Rocks is my single most favorite scene in the entire trilogy.....

and I think "Greedo Shoots First" is a good idea.....

and I liked the inclusion of the Jabba Scene.....

yes, I am a TOTAL SW fan......I like the OT in it's original version as well, and if GL doesn't give us BOTH versions on the DVD, I'll be VERY upset......

I agree with most things you just said. I enjoyed the Jedi Rocks scene, and I'm not upset with the "Greedo Shoots First" idea. The only thing that could have been done better would be the Jabba scene. I think that's it's cool that they put him in there and I'm glad we got a new scene to watch, but the CGI could have been better. So, hopefully, if GL does a new version, he'll fix this and it will look better. But other than that, I really liked the Special Editions.

Darth Nihilus
05-24-2002, 10:39 AM
It's interesting that so many have demoted RotJ from their childhoods. After watching OT in the lead up to Ep2 I kinda got put off RotJ somewhat. The reason for this is that the Endor sequences just seem to long and drawn out and detract from the movie.

187-Maul
05-24-2002, 11:31 AM
the greedo shot scene wasn't bad but the effect (pointing in the wrong direction) should have been made better
that cgi jabba wasn't THAT bad IMO UNTIL he reappeared in Episode 1 where you see that he looked like that (old) a long time ago too

billfremore
05-24-2002, 12:19 PM
My favorite argument my friends had against ROTJ was it was just like Star Wars becasue it had another Death Star. They thought it was just rehashing the first movie

Ok, so they blew up the first one, so what it's a good idea do it again. Just this time make it 2 or 3 times as big and improve on where it was faulted and then protect it with a big shield.

Lman316
05-26-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
The only thing that really hurt ROTJ in my mind was the "revelation" that Leia was Luke's sister. First Vader is his father in ESB, then Leia is his sister in ROTJ; it's a good thing that the series didn't continue after ROTJ as Han would have become his long lost brother and Chewie his runaway pet dog. (of course Ep1 did introduce the "Anakin created Threepio" thing :rolleyes: The only real problem I had with Ep1 )

I actually got to thinking about this yesterday. This would also work as an argument for people who say there are continuity errors between the prequels and the OT. There is a continuity error right within the OT.
In ESB:

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No. There is another."

If they both knew that Leia was Luke's sister, why would Obi-Wan assume that Luke is the last hope? I know that BB keeps talking about that, and that Yoda was refering to the character from the next trilogy. So, that's possibly where Lucas was going with it.
BUT then, we do find out that he was talking about Leia and that it would be up to your own point of view as to why he said that Luke was the last hope - maybe he just assumed that Leia wouldn't be as strong as Luke, or something like that. But that's the same way you'd have to use your own point of view that Yoda trained Obi-Wan without mentioning Qui-Gon.
What I'm saying probably doesn't make as much sense as it should (sometimes I have a hard time trying to express myself fully :p), but that right there should put to rest anything about: "Well, Qui-Gon wasn't mentioned in the OT. Obi-Wan said Yoda trained him..." At least, I think my argument should put it to rest... :crazed: Because you get the same type of thing happening right IN the OT. And to some (most) people, the OT is gospel...

But, anyway, I guess I can now understand why the "sibling revelation" might put some people off from ROTJ. But it still doesn't change my opinion of the film. From my point of view, Kenobi just didn't think Leia was strong enough or that she just wasn't Force-sensitive enough...or something, when he said that in ESB :D.

stillakid
05-26-2002, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Lman316


I actually got to thinking about this yesterday. This would also work as an argument for people who say there are continuity errors between the prequels and the OT. There is a continuity error right within the OT.
In ESB:

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."
Yoda: "No. There is another."

If they both knew that Leia was Luke's sister, why would Obi-Wan assume that Luke is the last hope? I know that BB keeps talking about that, and that Yoda was refering to the character from the next trilogy. So, that's possibly where Lucas was going with it.
BUT then, we do find out that he was talking about Leia and that it would be up to your own point of view as to why he said that Luke was the last hope - maybe he just assumed that Leia wouldn't be as strong as Luke, or something like that. But that's the same way you'd have to use your own point of view that Yoda trained Obi-Wan without mentioning Qui-Gon.
What I'm saying probably doesn't make as much sense as it should (sometimes I have a hard time trying to express myself fully :p), but that right there should put to rest anything about: "Well, Qui-Gon wasn't mentioned in the OT. Obi-Wan said Yoda trained him..." At least, I think my argument should put it to rest... :crazed: Because you get the same type of thing happening right IN the OT. And to some (most) people, the OT is gospel...



Though it's not stated, I believe that while Obi Wan knows about Leia, he either a)feels that she will not be strong enough, as you state or b)that time is running out for the Rebellion and there just isn't enough time to train her well enough to do any good before the Emperor is all powerful.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with a point of view argument in terms of Qui Gon not being mentioned. There were several times when Qui Gon's name should have been mentioned in the OT but it didn't happen. That's a contradiction. Obi Wan's feelings about Leia aren't.

And yes, the OT is gospel because it was made first. It set the tone, the rules, and the precendents. If George had started with Ep I, then that would be the gospel to follow. Whatever comes first is generally considered the template for everything to come.

Lman316
05-26-2002, 08:24 PM
But still, it all comes down to a matter of opinion on that one. I mean, Obi-Wan never comes right out and says "Luke is our last hope because we don't have enough time to train Leia." So, that could be seen as a contradiction or continuity error right in the OT. Because he only said "That boy is our last hope." With no explanation as to why. He never mentions Leia.
I understand the problem with Qui, though, but I always use the "from a certain point of view" logic when watching the movies. Yoda did train Obi-Wan...from a certain point of view. Hell, he even calls Mace "Master".
And I'm still thinking that in Episode 3 something is going to ruin Obi's opinion of Qui-Gon and make him angry enough to either "forget" about his old master or just really not like him...
But we'll have to wait to find out, and I'm getting more onto the Prequels than the OT, so I'll quit for now. :D

stillakid
05-26-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Lman316
And I'm still thinking that in Episode 3 something is going to ruin Obi's opinion of Qui-Gon and make him angry enough to either "forget" about his old master or just really not like him...
But we'll have to wait to find out, and I'm getting more onto the Prequels than the OT, so I'll quit for now. :D

Point taken. :)

But that still won't explain away Old Ben's line from ESB: "You will learn from Yoda, THE* Jedi Master who instructed me."




* I added the caps for emphasis, just to be sure that readers will take note of the THE and not mistake it for an A. We could assume from the events in EP II that lil' Obi Wan was a youngling with a mini-saber and had initial training by Yoda, but as also seen in Ep I and II, some Padawan learners are given a different teacher at some point in their training. If we accept EP I as being correct, then the information in ESB incorrect and is contradictory. Since the OT should be considered correct, as it was written first, that means that anything contradictory from the prequels is by definition "incorrect," so the Qui Gon character, as evidenced by many many other examples throughout the OT, is in direct contradiction to the saga and never should have been introduced in the first place. However, having said that, GL still considers these films as works in progress, so any number of alterations to the OT could still occur before he calls it quits. In that event, he MUST alter the above ESB line and several other dialogues to bridge the gap between the new Prequel reality and the now "false" OT facts. Always in motion is the future.

bigbarada
05-26-2002, 11:07 PM
How many times do we have to spell it out for you? Qui-Gonn didn't exist in GL's mind when that line was written for ESB! Nobody is arguing that point.

However, a similar continuity error between ESB and ROTJ is totally ignored by the "prequels-hate-squad." Leia wasn't Luke's sister either when ESB was written, the kissing scene in the medical bay proves this. But you don't need to prove it, GL admits it. Thus it is a similar continuity error; but then again we really don't know because we haven't seen all the movies yet. Revisions in writing stories happen all the time, so either live with them or get a new hobby.

stillakid
05-27-2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
How many times do we have to spell it out for you? Qui-Gonn didn't exist in GL's mind when that line was written for ESB! Nobody is arguing that point.

However, a similar continuity error between ESB and ROTJ is totally ignored by the "prequels-hate-squad." Leia wasn't Luke's sister either when ESB was written, the kissing scene in the medical bay proves this. But you don't need to prove it, GL admits it. Thus it is a similar continuity error; but then again we really don't know because we haven't seen all the movies yet. Revisions in writing stories happen all the time, so either live with them or get a new hobby.

You're the only one who isn't arguing that point. :) And I really do agree with you.

But the kissing scene certainly ISN'T a continuity error as neither Luke nor Leia knew at that point in the story that they were related. At that point in the story they were just really good friends. Whether he thought it up post ESB or not, their kiss does not contradict squat. In fact, it actually enhances the revelation later on in the story when they both find out what's really going on. I understand that Qui Gon wasn't invented until later. Got it. Move on. It's still an error until he "corrects" it in the DVD OT releases or magically removes the character from Ep I. Either or.

In a related note, in GL's INSIDER interview this month, he states that Greedo was always meant to fire first, and, I may have read it wrong, Greedo always has fired first. It was just cut so quickly that it was too difficult to tell. The Special Edition was reworked to make it crystal clear that Han isn't a "cold blooded killer."

To be fair, I can live with that...if it's true. The only way to be completely sure about it is to acquire a 35mm print of the movie and look at each frame in that moment of gunplay.

Regardless, it's not that I HATE the prequels or editing of the OT, it's that he has virtually no regard for maintaining continuity throughout the films (as presently available) and that is the problem in my eyes.

Plus, and more importantly, he's removing or changing aspects that his fans (the people that paid for his present lifestyle) grew to love. Imagine Spielberg reediting Raiders so that Indy doesn't shoot the Arab Swordsman in cold blood. That is one of those classic moments in silver screen history! Just like the Marilyn Monroe blowing skirt shot. Or the Clarke Gable "Frankly my dear..." line. The Greedo fires first fiasco will be infamous. Not because he reedited the scene to make his original intention more clear, but because nobody on the planet, except George Lucas, ever saw the scene that way. And guess what? They loved it the way it was and really don't understand (and for the most part) don't accept what he did and why. In the end, it's his money and he owns the right to do anything he wants to it. He could CG in a dancing monkey into every shot if he got the urge. But should he?

Lman316
05-27-2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


Point taken. :)

But that still won't explain away Old Ben's line from ESB: "You will learn from Yoda, THE* Jedi Master who instructed me."



Actually, I think it would explain that. Because if he was mad enough at Qui-Gon, he wouldn't think of him as his Master anymore, and he just might refer to Yoda as his only "real" Master. Almost like, "Well, I'll show you, Qui-Gon...I don't think of you as my Master anymore... Yoda was the only one who trained me..."

And about the Greedo issue...I still don't see the problem. Han still kills in "cold blood"...kinda. He was pulling the gun from his holster before Greedo fired. So, he was intending to shoot anyway. He didn't know that Greedo was going to fire. It's not like Greedo fired, then Han rolled out of his chair, and pull his blaster out in self defense, and then he would sigh to show it was a "close call" or anything like that. Han was gonna shoot that sucker either way. Greedo just happened to get a crap shot off first. And even though it was crap shot, I still look at it like he was toying with Solo - because let's face it, Greedo would never kill Solo because Han owed money to Jabba. If Greedo killed him, then Jabba would be p*ssed...and well, you get the idea.

And just so I'm not off topic too much, I still want to know what this "changing Wookies to Ewoks" thing is from ROTJ. I never ever knew that Endor was supposed to be the homeworld for Wookiees. I thought Kasshyk (or something like that) was supposed to be where Wookiees called home :confused:
All I can think about now is that one episode of South Park: "Cochrane is going to use his famous Chewbacca Defense!" "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!" :D

stillakid
05-27-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Lman316


Actually, I think it would explain that. Because if he was mad enough at Qui-Gon, he wouldn't think of him as his Master anymore, and he just might refer to Yoda as his only "real" Master. Almost like, "Well, I'll show you, Qui-Gon...I don't think of you as my Master anymore... Yoda was the only one who trained me..."

And about the Greedo issue...I still don't see the problem. Han still kills in "cold blood"...kinda. He was pulling the gun from his holster before Greedo fired. So, he was intending to shoot anyway. He didn't know that Greedo was going to fire. It's not like Greedo fired, then Han rolled out of his chair, and pull his blaster out in self defense, and then he would sigh to show it was a "close call" or anything like that. Han was gonna shoot that sucker either way. Greedo just happened to get a crap shot off first. And even though it was crap shot, I still look at it like he was toying with Solo - because let's face it, Greedo would never kill Solo because Han owed money to Jabba. If Greedo killed him, then Jabba would be p*ssed...and well, you get the idea.

And just so I'm not off topic too much, I still want to know what this "changing Wookies to Ewoks" thing is from ROTJ. I never ever knew that Endor was supposed to be the homeworld for Wookiees. I thought Kasshyk (or something like that) was supposed to be where Wookiees called home :confused:
All I can think about now is that one episode of South Park: "Cochrane is going to use his famous Chewbacca Defense!" "If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!" :D


Why would Obi Wan get that mad at Qui Gon? I'm not asking with sarcasm or anything. I suppose it could "tie it all up" maybe if there is something specific in Ep III that makes it crystal clear. It's a wait and see thing.

I wondered about that Greedo thing too. Is the bounty for Dead or Alive at that point in the story? I didn't think so. What good is Greedo firing first going to do him? Blowing away Solo would just **** Jabba off and the little green guy would get eaten by a Rancor sooner than later. And "toying" with Solo? Maybe the Greedo guy is just naive, but any bounty hunter worth his salt would probably not fire a warning shot and not expect an answer. Clearly he's an idiot anyway since he let Solo's hand drop out of view, but a warning shot? I don't know. I need something else to convince me of that.

And the Wookie thing. I'm sure others here can answer more completely than I, but early outlines of the saga had the final battle taking place on Chewy's home planet. The way I understand it is that by the time Lucas got to writing ROTJ, Chewbacca had become much more "civilized" than he had intended, so he had to downgrade the forest warriors into primitive little beings that were not Wookies.

Lman316
05-27-2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



Why would Obi Wan get that mad at Qui Gon? I'm not asking with sarcasm or anything. I suppose it could "tie it all up" maybe if there is something specific in Ep III that makes it crystal clear. It's a wait and see thing.

I wondered about that Greedo thing too. Is the bounty for Dead or Alive at that point in the story? I didn't think so. What good is Greedo firing first going to do him? Blowing away Solo would just **** Jabba off and the little green guy would get eaten by a Rancor sooner than later. And "toying" with Solo? Maybe the Greedo guy is just naive, but any bounty hunter worth his salt would probably not fire a warning shot and not expect an answer. Clearly he's an idiot anyway since he let Solo's hand drop out of view, but a warning shot? I don't know. I need something else to convince me of that.

And the Wookie thing. I'm sure others here can answer more completely than I, but early outlines of the saga had the final battle taking place on Chewy's home planet. The way I understand it is that by the time Lucas got to writing ROTJ, Chewbacca had become much more "civilized" than he had intended, so he had to downgrade the forest warriors into primitive little beings that were not Wookies.

Well, we know that Qui had ties with Dooku - him being the latter's apprentice. So, it might be possible that Qui-Gon was meddling in the Dark Side or something. Just something to ruin his image. Or, thinking back to JT's "Qui-Gon is Anakin's Father" idea: that Qui-Gon was so wrapped up in his own things (that's why he didn't disappear) that that too could tarnish Jinn's image to Obi-Wan. "I always thought so highly of him. But he didn't really care about the Jedi Order at all." And then he huffs and pouts for a while...or something :p. I've almost got you convinced? Maybe? (Kidding :D)

I don't know.....Greedo is stupid, so maybe he thought he would be "cute" and fire a warning shot. That might just make that work, huh? Almost convinced here too? lol. (Again, just kidding :D)

And with the Wookiees, if it was never mentioned on screen, it shouldn't be a problem. No where in the OT did it say that Chewie was from Endor, so I don't see why people have "beef" with that. And just for the record, Ewoks are awesome! :happy:

End.

jjreason
05-27-2002, 04:04 AM
I think that with ROJ we all knew it was gonna be the last movie, so it all HAD to turn out right, didn't it? Hmmm...a Death Star. Odds are that baby's gonna be bright spots on black within 2 hrs. The Ewoks were fine, Im even okay with them beating on the Stormies but I think it looks fake. Many of the blows landed with rocks, etc. seem to glance off or barely impact, yet down he goes. If they really made them nasty vicious for that scene, no problem. It looks like they (not to mention Han and Leia) are having playtime on Endor while the Death Star picks off medical frigates and cruisers one after another.
All that being said, what other movie climaxes for a whole hour? I LOVE ROJ, it's amazing. All those complaints I made are based on my most recent viewing, during which I must have been in a sour mood (no good toys in town).

bigbarada
05-27-2002, 05:34 AM
Greedo firing first: from that point of view I can accept this change. If I choose to believe Lucas' statement that Greedo was always supposed to fire first. So much went wrong for ol' GL that I can buy the fact that many scenes didn't turn out the way he wanted them; but he was under a strict deadline so he had to work with what he had as there was no time for reshoots. Rumor has it that he was editing and re-editing the film all the way up to two weeks before it's May 25th release and even then he was never satisfied; but when he saw how well it was being recieved he decided to "Leave it alone, FOR NOW." So I guess the indications that Lucas would be editing his movies and changing them until the day he dies were always there.

In the original draft of ROTJ, Leia was not involved in the rescue of Han Solo, but was instead running raids on the Imperial City planet (now known as Coruscant). However, somehow ILM convinced Lucas that city scene were impossible (even though Bladrunner pulled them off just fine). So, the final battle, which was to take place over the Imperial City and have the Rebellion go up against two Death Stars, was nixed. GL went back to his original idea of the primitive planet with Wookies, which were later changed to Ewoks.

The only logical flaw I see with Endor is why would the Imperials care about running around in the trees to look for possible saboteurs? Why not just level the forest for hundreds of square miles and leave it at that? Was it some kind of biological preserve? Funny, I never took the Imperials for the environmental types, what with them blowing up entire planets and all. It can't be said that they were trying to hide from detection, as that giant Death Star in orbit would be a dead giveaway.

Anyway, GL was trying to make a point with the end battle of ROTJ and I'm down with that. :) Contrived as it might have been.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, Lucas would never have written a scene where a brother and sister kiss each other so passionately in a "kid's movie" if he had known that Luke and Leia were going to be brother and sister. That was my point. I doesn't present any continuity errors within the story; but it does show that Lucas writes these things as he goes along. Heck, the first drafts of ESB made no mention of Vader being Luke's father.

Han Solo was also originally a giant green alien Jedi, with no nose and huge gills. Bossk was originally a giant purple squid. So, hey stuff changes.

Lman316
05-27-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Oh yeah, almost forgot, Lucas would never have written a scene where a brother and sister kiss each other so passionately in a "kid's movie" if he had known that Luke and Leia were going to be brother and sister. That was my point.


I never really saw that kiss as very passionate - it was more like a peck on the cheek. It was just something Leia did to annoy Han.
But again, this is just how I saw it :D

Bosskman
05-27-2002, 04:51 PM
Leia kissing Luke was done just to annoy Han, but in ANH Luke is clearly shown to have feelings for Leia that are un-brotherly in his conversation with Han about her in the Falcon's cockpit. I heard the "other" Yoda spoke of, was originally supposed to be the main character in the third trilogy that was supposed to be set in the same time frame as the OT, and the resolution was to be in a fourth trilogy. Leia was made the "other" when Lucas decided to make 6 movies instead of 12. Ben's ghost talking about Yoda as the Jedi master who instructed him is not a contradiction with Qui Gon being his master. Yoda is the Jedi master who instructed him just not the ONLY one. No contradiction. None at all.

stillakid
05-27-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
Yoda is the Jedi master who instructed him just not the ONLY one. No contradiction. None at all.

"You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." -- The Spirit of Obi Wan Kenobi, The Empire Strikes Back

Lman316
05-27-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


"You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." -- The Spirit of Obi Wan Kenobi, The Empire Strikes Back

Ah, but again, it's all on how you look at it. What is Obi-Wan is saying is absolutely true - it's all a matter of semantics.

"You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." Well, let me ask you this......Was Qui-Gon a Jedi Master during A New Hope? Was Mace? I would say no, since they've all become "one with the Force" a while before that. There were no other Jedi he could have said. And, yes, Obi-Wan is a Jedi himself, but he didn't train himself. So, Yoda....the only other Jedi living at the time. The only Jedi Master....

Bosskman
05-27-2002, 10:35 PM
If I said Madame Paulin was the teacher who taught me in school I wouldn't be lying. I could also say Monsieur Brunet was the teacher who taught me in school and not be lying either. Both statements are true. If Obi says that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him that doesn't mean that Qui Gon was not also the Jedi Master who instructed him as well. There is therefor no contradiction. If Obi Wan said, "Luke. LUKE. You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the only Jedi Master who ever instructed me throughout my entire life as a Jedi. I swear to you Luke there was no other. If you ever hear tell of some guy named Qui Gon instructing me I assure you it's a lie. There never was such a man, and if there was I assure you he never instructed me in any way whatsover. Only Yoda, Luke, Yoda was the only one ever." then maybe I could follow your argument stillaked, but alas he never said such a thing so the contradiction only exist in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

stillakid
05-27-2002, 11:32 PM
Those are both great ideas, but the ESB line isn't the only proof of contradiction to take into account.

There are other moments, like in ROTJ when Spirit Ben is talking to Luke. "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong." While we now know that there were other teachers, at least we imply that though we never see it happening, the implication there is that Yoda was Obi Wan's teacher. He could've said the name Qui Gon in there and should have based on what we saw in TPM, but alas, he didn't.

I agree with Barada who says that George didn't think up Qui Gon until well after the OT was made (as well as other elements, like Midichlorians). So when the OT was made, GL wouldn't have had Spirit Ben say the name Qui Gon because it didn't exist then. The understanding, most likely even by GL at that point, was that Yoda was Obi Wan's only teacher. Stories change, elements are added, I get that and accept it as part of the process. The problem is that this change is definitely a contradiction no matter how convoluted a rationalization is concocted to make it seem like it's working, it still doesn't jive with the dialogue presently in the OT.

"Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, he was already a great pilot but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."

That above dialogue distinctly suggests that Obi Wan was the guy who discovered Anakin and more importantly, was the first to react to Anakin's potential and act upon it. I've got a two hour movie with a guy named Qui Gon in it that contradicts all of that. In TPM, Qui Gon finds Anakin, recognizes his potential and takes it upon himself to train him as a Jedi. There is even dialogue supporting that. "I take him as my Padawan Learner." Obi Wan is pretty much set dressing (throughout much of the movie) and in fact even argues with Qui Gon about training the boy. "The boy is dangerous. They can all see that, why can't you?" That certainly doesn't sound like the Obi Wan from ROTJ.

The only reason he does train Anakin in the end is because Qui Gon hung on to life long enough to get Obi Wan to promise to train Anakin. Obi Wan was never amazed at how strongly the Force was with Anakin in TPM. He was shocked at the high Midichlorian count (another contradiction to the OT), but he never actually witnessed Anakin doing anything remotely resembling Force power (because he was stuck back on the Queen's ship twiddling his thumbs).

Lman316
05-28-2002, 12:07 AM
"Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, he was already a great pilot but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."

Actually, and again, from a certain point of view, Obi-Wan did "take it upon himself" to train Anakin. Just because it was Qui's last wish doesn't change anything. It could just have easily gone like this: "Promise me you'll train him." "No, I don't wanna..."

And...AND, what if Qui-Gon was actually a clone. I know, kind of a stupid idea, but it might happen. If he was, then he really wasn't a Jedi (not even really a human) and Obi wouldn't really regard him as such. That (plus my other explanations: Obi getting mad at Qui-Gon, or the fact that Yoda was the only Jedi still alive at the time) would explain why Qui was never mentioned. There just wouldn't be any point. Also, they were short on time, and I don't think that Luke needed to hear every bit and piece of what happened before his birth.
But one thing I don't like is the: "He was the best starfighter in the galaxy." (or something to that extent). And Obi (as of yet) hasn't really seen Ani piloting anything but a speeder...So, I too have some problems, but Episode 3 could change that. We might see nothing but Ani piloting starfighters :D.

And I agree too that Qui wasn't made up during the original trilogy, but I still don't see too much of a contradiction. I see where you see it, and I understand it, but that's just not how I see it. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just offering my opinion as you're offering yours, Stillakid - and I'm actually enjoying this debate. You always seem to have one up on me :p. And I just have to try that much harder to make a counter point.
Can't wait for the next set.

End.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Bosskman
If I said Madame Paulin was the teacher who taught me in school I wouldn't be lying. I could also say Monsieur Brunet was the teacher who taught me in school and not be lying either. Both statements are true. If Obi says that Yoda was the Jedi Master who instructed him that doesn't mean that Qui Gon was not also the Jedi Master who instructed him as well. There is therefor no contradiction. If Obi Wan said, "Luke. LUKE. You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the only Jedi Master who ever instructed me throughout my entire life as a Jedi. I swear to you Luke there was no other. If you ever hear tell of some guy named Qui Gon instructing me I assure you it's a lie. There never was such a man, and if there was I assure you he never instructed me in any way whatsover. Only Yoda, Luke, Yoda was the only one ever." then maybe I could follow your argument stillaked, but alas he never said such a thing so the contradiction only exist in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.


Oh, and your statement would be incorrect as worded by saying that Madame Paulin was THE teacher who taught you in school. Because you had multiple teachers, you should have said "A" teacher, not "THE" teacher.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Lman316


Actually, and again, from a certain point of view, Obi-Wan did "take it upon himself" to train Anakin. Just because it was Qui's last wish doesn't change anything. It could just have easily gone like this: "Promise me you'll train him." "No, I don't wanna..."

And...AND, what if Qui-Gon was actually a clone. I know, kind of a stupid idea, but it might happen. If he was, then he really wasn't a Jedi (not even really a human) and Obi wouldn't really regard him as such. That (plus my other explanations: Obi getting mad at Qui-Gon, or the fact that Yoda was the only Jedi still alive at the time) would explain why Qui was never mentioned. There just wouldn't be any point. Also, they were short on time, and I don't think that Luke needed to hear every bit and piece of what happened before his birth.
But one thing I don't like is the: "He was the best starfighter in the galaxy." (or something to that extent). And Obi (as of yet) hasn't really seen Ani piloting anything but a speeder...So, I too have some problems, but Episode 3 could change that. We might see nothing but Ani piloting starfighters :D.

And I agree too that Qui wasn't made up during the original trilogy, but I still don't see too much of a contradiction. I see where you see it, and I understand it, but that's just not how I see it. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just offering my opinion as you're offering yours, Stillakid - and I'm actually enjoying this debate. You always seem to have one up on me :p. And I just have to try that much harder to make a counter point.
Can't wait for the next set.

End.


Damn. I knew I should've gone ahead and dealt with that ridiculous "point of view" argument right off. :)

Just because Obi Wan uses that reasoning to explain the Anakin/Vader confusion doesn't give the world carte blanche to explain away all of his incongrueties with it. There was a very specific reason that he worded his explanation of who Vader was and who Luke's father was (in ANH) that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the way he introduced his teacher, Yoda. He tells the world that his teacher was Yoda. No point of view issues here at all. Just because he uses the Point of View statement in that scene, doesn't mean it applies to EVERYTHING he's ever said or done.

The cloning thing? :confused: God only knows what silliness he'll pull out for Ep III to bridge the inconsistencies. Or not. He may wait until the DVD releases to introduce the changes necessary to remove these problems. A line of dialogue here and there would clear some of this stuff up. I'm not advocating it or anything, but then again, he doesn't give a rat's a## what I think. :)

Lman316
05-28-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



Damn. I knew I should've gone ahead and dealt with that ridiculous "point of view" argument right off. :)

Just because Obi Wan uses that reasoning to explain the Anakin/Vader confusion doesn't give the world carte blanche to explain away all of his incongrueties with it. There was a very specific reason that he worded his explanation of who Vader was and who Luke's father was (in ANH) that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the way he introduced his teacher, Yoda. He tells the world that his teacher was Yoda. No point of view issues here at all. Just because he uses the Point of View statement in that scene, doesn't mean it applies to EVERYTHING he's ever said or done.

Okay, maybe not everything. But he did say: "...a lot of the truths we cling to." :)

End.

2-1B
05-28-2002, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Just because Obi Wan uses that reasoning to explain the Anakin/Vader confusion doesn't give the world carte blanche to explain away all of his incongrueties with it. There was a very specific reason that he worded his explanation of who Vader was and who Luke's father was (in ANH) that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the way he introduced his teacher, Yoda.

He worded it that way because at the time Darth Vader was the guy who killed Luke Skywalker's dad (do we hear the name Anakin in ANH? I can't remember). There is nothing in that scene to suggest that there is more to the story. ANH was made as a stand alone picture, had it not done well financially they would have always been 2 separate people. But it did do well (yay!) and they had to move onto the next film. I can't say with 100% certainty (I'll need to dig up info on the early ESB plans), but I'm confident that George had to make the final decision to "go" with the father Vader line, and it's then that Ben's talk in his hermit shack takes on a whole new meaning. Because of ESB (and the confirmation in ROTJ) we know the bigger picture.

I think that's the same that happened with Qui-Gon - he was added in later like Daddy Vader and the audience needed to look at things in a new light. I think what's different though is that there were only 3 years between ANH & ESB and then ROTJ, plus the audience was going along for the ride. Then they had 16 years to absorb everything from the classic trilogy canon as one big movie . . . until TPM came along and cracked the long held POVs of the audience. It cracked my perception of the training lineage of Yoda--Obi-Wan--Anakin but nothing so far has contradicted the storyline for me, it's only fleshed out the history.

"When I first knew him" definitely could imply for the 16 year period between trilogies that Ben literally meant "the first moment I knew him" --- ahhh, Obi-Wan did feel the disturbance that Qui-Gon felt on Tatooine before they even met Anakin . . . nice job George! :D Plus he knew the boy was dangerous (obviously due to his strength in the Force).

But even still, "when I first knew him" could easily refer to the first years of a relationship when looking back several decades. From AOTC (retroactively) we certainly do see that Obi-Wan is aware of how strongly the Force was with Anakin ("skills have made him arrogant", stuff like that). Even though George decided on the 10 year gap we can assume that from the days of Qui-Gon's funeral to Padme's elevator there have been many Force related incidents. But like I said in the previous paragraph, there is enough in TPM to fit the ROTJ explanation even though it doesn't match what we assumed all those years.

"A" vs. "The" Jedi Master who instructed me? I don't think that just one word here can make it a contradiction in the scope of a 6 film series. We know from ROTJ (retroactively) that Yoda is the last Jedi. And we know from TPM and AOTC (retroactively) that there were a whole lot of details that Ben didn't tell Luke in his house (details like the Jedi Council, padawans, etc.). Just because he didn't talk about them doesn't mean they didn't exist, of course there was a vast history to the Jedi Knights. And now we're learning the specifics . . .




But keeping with the ROTJ part of this thread ( :D ), I do agree with you stillakid that the "certain point of view" explanation by Ben should not be used by us to explain more than the ANH discussion of Vader murdering Luke's father.

Darth_Stevious
05-28-2002, 07:43 AM
At the end of TPM Obi-Wan was still a padawan. Before he could earn the title "Master" he would have to go through the trials. Perhaps Yoda instructed Obi-Wan briefly to prepaire him for the trials. This would give a bit more creedance to his statement in ESB.

Rogue II
05-28-2002, 09:26 AM
Since Episode 1 and 2 came out, I look at it this way:

Children are identified to be Jedis. They are taken to a Jedi academy where Yoda instructs them (as seen in ATOC). They learn everything they need to know from Yoda. After a certain amount of time, they are given to a Jedi master for practical applicatioin of their skills(as seen in TPM and ATOC). Call it on the job training if you will. They are then sent through the trials and become Jedi.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

"When I first knew him" definitely could imply for the 16 year period between trilogies that Ben literally meant "the first moment I knew him" --- ahhh, Obi-Wan did feel the disturbance that Qui-Gon felt on Tatooine before they even met Anakin . . . nice job George! :D Plus he knew the boy was dangerous (obviously due to his strength in the Force).




Generally speaking, a great deal of the arguments against my reasoning have to do with rationalizing the details after the fact now that we've seen TPM. Like I said, he's changing the story, and at present, they conflict. The "When I first knew him" snipet refers to a couple of things. The first: Ani being a pilot; the second: his Force ability. You could make a case for Obi Wan not being the one to discover the piloting skills, but the second implication of his statement, "...but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi," is indisputable. I don't understand the resistance by everyone to accepting the conflict between the OT and the Prequels. :confused:




Specifically, I interpreted :) the above "disturbance" comment by Obi Wan as not referring to Anakin, but to Sidious and Maul. There is no reason to suspect from anything that occurs in TPM that Obi Wan is referring to Anakin.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Lman316


Okay, maybe not everything. But he did say: "...a lot of the truths we cling to." :)

End.

Oh, and yeah, but that again refers to the Vader/father point he's trying to make, not anything else he's talking about in that sit down chat. If they had talked about what Luke had for lunch that day and Luke had said "grilled cheese sandwich," chances are it was a grilled cheese sandwich. I'm not sure where the point of view argument could come into play there. ;)

Bosskman
05-28-2002, 11:22 AM
Stillakid, the english language is a funny one. There are many, many ways of saying the same thing. I am well aware of the gramatical differences between the word "a" and the word "the". I can't help at feel a little insulted by the fact that you think I think they're the same word. It all has to do with context. Obi Wan's statement in ESB does NOT NEGATETHE POSSIBILITY THAT ANYONE OTHER THAN YODA INSTRUCTED HIM. Yoda probably had a hand in training all the Jedi at some point. He was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi Wan. If you were to ask Obi Wan "Who was the Jedi Master who instructed you?" He could answer "Yoda", he could answer "Qui-Gon", he could answer "Yarael Poof", and still be telling the truth. He could also respond by naming all of them. We know from the films that, as Rogue II said, Jedi begin their training as infants. It's like school. They seem to have more than one instructor. He could say Yoda was a Jedi Master who instructed him, but, since he's telling Luke to go see Yoda, and Yoda's the only one left, and for a plethora of other reasons, for the purposes of emphasis, it is gramatically acceptible for him to use the word "the". There is NO CONTRADICTION. How many times do I have to say it? Even if it wasn't gramatically correct, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE!! Most people don't speak according to the rules of grammar anyways. Especially in SW. I know that QUI Gon was invented for TPM and that, in ESB, Yoda was probably meant to be Obi's only instructor, but the statement in question does not contradict TPM. As far as the pilot thing, Obi Wan says "When I first KNEW him", not "when I first MET him". There's a big difference there. Obi didn't really get to know Anakin untill he began instructing him. The part in ROTJ about "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda, I was wrong" is not contradicted by anything in TPM either. Anakin was too old to be instructed like the younglings (and therefore Obi Wan at some point) were by Yoda. If ben didn't think he could instruct Anakin, he would never have agreed to do so. (I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." "I will train Anakin, without the approval of the council if I must." "Qui Gon's defiance I sense in you." It certainly wasn't how I envisioned it back when I was a kid, but it's not contradictory. Give Lucas SOME credit at least.

2-1B
05-28-2002, 01:19 PM
Darth_Stevious
At the end of TPM Obi-Wan was still a padawan. Before he could earn the title "Master" he would have to go through the trials. Perhaps Yoda instructed Obi-Wan briefly to prepaire him for the trials. This would give a bit more creedance to his statement in ESB.

No, at the end of TPM Obi-Wan was a Jedi Knight. Killing a Sith Lord allowed him to skip over the trials and be conferred immediately by Yoda on behalf of the Council. So Yoda never prepared him for any trials.



stillakid
Generally speaking, a great deal of the arguments against my reasoning have to do with rationalizing the details after the fact now that we've seen TPM. Like I said, he's changing the story, and at present, they conflict. The "When I first knew him" snipet refers to a couple of things. The first: Ani being a pilot; the second: his Force ability. You could make a case for Obi Wan not being the one to discover the piloting skills, but the second implication of his statement, "...but I was amazed at how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi," is indisputable. I don't understand the resistance by everyone to accepting the conflict between the OT and the Prequels.

That's just it, you're explaining it as Classic vs. Prequel without considering the conflicts I proposed between the films of the Classic trilogy. Of course we need to rationalize since (as you stated) things are being added. Just like they were "added" to the classic films as they went along. But within the context of the story I don't understand why Obi-Wan's words are taken so rigidly that there is no possibility of the "facts" being abridged.

Without question, Ani "was already a great pilot" as Obers said,
he was aware of how strong Ani was in the Force - I've seen that over the course of 2 prequels now, although not exactly in the ways I imagined for 16 years, and he took it upon himself to train him as a Jedi - I saw that play out pretty clearly in TPM too. If Obi-Wan said "when I first found him", then it would be clear from TPM that the statement was a contradiction . . . but he said "when I first knew him", and that leaves a lot of wiggle room.


Specifically, I interpreted the above "disturbance" comment by Obi Wan as not referring to Anakin, but to Sidious and Maul. There is no reason to suspect from anything that occurs in TPM that Obi Wan is referring to Anakin.

It's fine that you interpret it that way, but the fact that they just landed on Ani's planet which puts them within close proximity does lend creedance to my interpretation. More so than it was Maul/Sidious . . . Anakin was closer. :p

Rogue II
05-28-2002, 01:52 PM
Well, since we know that George Lucas is going back and re-re-editing the OT for its DVD release I find it hard to make any more arguements about this trilogy. We already know that he is adding Padme in ROTJ. What else will he change? Dialogue between Luke, Yoda, and Ben to make it more consistent with the prequel trilogy?








Wouldn't it be funny if Chewbacca shot first?

stillakid
05-28-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
It's fine that you interpret it that way, but the fact that they just landed on Ani's planet which puts them within close proximity does lend creedance to my interpretation. More so than it was Maul/Sidious . . . Anakin was closer. :p

That line doesn't occur on Tatooine. It is said on the Federation Trade ship in the conference right at the beginning of the movie. As the Federation was in cahoots with Sidious, that places the assumption of danger back to the Sith as Ani hadn't even really tapped into his Force ability yet, much less gone evil with it.

"I sense something, Master..."...."elsewhere, elusive..."


Originally posted by Caesar

That's just it, you're explaining it as Classic vs. Prequel without considering the conflicts I proposed between the films of the Classic trilogy. Of course we need to rationalize since (as you stated) things are being added. Just like they were "added" to the classic films as they went along. But within the context of the story I don't understand why Obi-Wan's words are taken so rigidly that there is no possibility of the "facts" being abridged.

Without question, Ani "was already a great pilot" as Obers said,
he was aware of how strong Ani was in the Force - I've seen that over the course of 2 prequels now, although not exactly in the ways I imagined for 16 years, and he took it upon himself to train him as a Jedi - I saw that play out pretty clearly in TPM too. If Obi-Wan said "when I first found him", then it would be clear from TPM that the statement was a contradiction . . . but he said "when I first knew him", and that leaves a lot of wiggle room.

Originally posted by Bosskman
Stillakid, the english language is a funny one. There are many, many ways of saying the same thing. I am well aware of the gramatical differences between the word "a" and the word "the". I can't help at feel a little insulted by the fact that you think I think they're the same word. It all has to do with context. Obi Wan's statement in ESB does NOT NEGATETHE POSSIBILITY THAT ANYONE OTHER THAN YODA INSTRUCTED HIM. Yoda probably had a hand in training all the Jedi at some point. He was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi Wan. If you were to ask Obi Wan "Who was the Jedi Master who instructed you?" He could answer "Yoda", he could answer "Qui-Gon", he could answer "Yarael Poof", and still be telling the truth. He could also respond by naming all of them. We know from the films that, as Rogue II said, Jedi begin their training as infants. It's like school. They seem to have more than one instructor. He could say Yoda was a Jedi Master who instructed him, but, since he's telling Luke to go see Yoda, and Yoda's the only one left, and for a plethora of other reasons, for the purposes of emphasis, it is gramatically acceptible for him to use the word "the". There is NO CONTRADICTION. How many times do I have to say it? Even if it wasn't gramatically correct, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE!! Most people don't speak according to the rules of grammar anyways. Especially in SW. I know that QUI Gon was invented for TPM and that, in ESB, Yoda was probably meant to be Obi's only instructor, but the statement in question does not contradict TPM. As far as the pilot thing, Obi Wan says "When I first KNEW him", not "when I first MET him". There's a big difference there. Obi didn't really get to know Anakin untill he began instructing him. The part in ROTJ about "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda, I was wrong" is not contradicted by anything in TPM either. Anakin was too old to be instructed like the younglings (and therefore Obi Wan at some point) were by Yoda. If ben didn't think he could instruct Anakin, he would never have agreed to do so. (I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi." "I will train Anakin, without the approval of the council if I must." "Qui Gon's defiance I sense in you." It certainly wasn't how I envisioned it back when I was a kid, but it's not contradictory. Give Lucas SOME credit at least.

Wiggle room. Rationalization. You say tomato's, I say tomahto's. :) Same thing. At face value (which is how I'm looking at it all), Old Ben implied, if not outright said, that he was trained by Yoda. If somebody wants to finesse the meaning of Old Ben's words so that they fit, it could be done. Spin doctor's get paid a ton in Washington for that very skill! :)

I'm still chewing on the suggestion that I give Lucas some credit. :) I used to, but his failure to write a strong story in TPM implanted the doubts that I have in his ability to properly connect the dots over such a large epic story. I really don't believe that he's thinking this stuff through but instead just tosses it in as a convenient avenue to get to a desired end (ie: Maul needs a victim, yet Obi Wan must live -- see below for details).

He also admits, in the latest INSIDER, that Boba Fett was reutilized because it was a "fan favorite." While the addition of that character poses no continuity errors, it does take away from the mystique of the "rogue" bounty hunter that we experienced in ESB. Now, with a history of the Swiss Family Fett along with lil' Fett, some of that "coolness" was worn away. So, he's making story decisions because they're "cool," not because they make sense. That will be why Hayden will get his wish and put on the Vader helmet despite the unlikely story situation that would allow that to occur as early as the events in Ep III (and aid in destroying the surprise of his identity in the OT.)

But for me, the issue goes beyond mere words of intent from the Original Trilogy. One of the major problems I had with The Phantom Menace is that Obi Wan has virtually nothing to do in the story. He basically hangs out and waits until Qui Gon gets run through before he actually gets to do anything of value (kill the bad guy).

To me, it was pointless to add an additional character to do all of the things that Obi Wan was "understood" to have done (based on the OT) only to have him die at the end anyway. As far as I can tell, the only reason to have Qui Gon in there in the first place is so that he can die so that Darth Maul can kill a major character.

Presumably Obi Wan wasn't a Jedi yet, so we couldn't have him running around the galaxy with a partner who could have been Maul's victim. That leaves only one choice, to give Obi Wan a Master who can be the victim.

Now, had we joined this epic just a bit later on, when Obi Wan had just become a Jedi, all of this nonsense would go away. Then he could traverse the galaxy with someone else, destined to be Maul's victim, and still discover and make the actual decision to train Anakin. It still isn't a perfect scenario, in that George wanted Maul to kill someone and have Obi Wan there to "avenge" it, but at least it would preserve the understanding of Obi Wan's and Anakin's initial relationship.

Now, unless Ep III reveals Qui Gon to have a more intricate role in the Clone Army plan or something, he will remain a fairly useless and problematic addition to the saga (as it presently stands).

Bosskman
05-28-2002, 06:20 PM
Stillakid, I agree with you about Obi's role in TPM, or lack thereof, at least I did up until I saw AOTC. I think now that the fact that it was Qui Gon, and not Obi, who discovered Anakin and wanted to train him initially and the fact that Obi Wan didn't agree with him until he was guilted into it by Qui Gon on his deathbed, will serve as a big bone of contention between Anakin and Obi Wan in EIII. Picture Anakin yelling at obi Wan in that childish, angry brooding teenager way like he does on the Gunship in AOTC, or like he rants about him to Padme: "You never wanted to train me in the first place Obi Wan! You only did because you promised Qui Gon! You were always jealous of me!" Obi Wan is tremendously rude and snobish when talking about Anakin in TPM. "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?" "The boy is dangerous..", the look on his face when Qui Gon tells the council that he wants Anakin as a Padawan. Anakin has to have picked up on this. The look on his face at the funeral when he says "What will happen to me now, and the way he says it is like he's afraid Obi Wan's gonna go ape $%#t on him or at least tell him to buzz off or something." He's always feeling that none of the Jedi want him except for Qui Gon. Something I'm sure Palpy, or maybe even Dooku, is gonna capitalize on. I'm sure of it. Cool, I just thought those things up while writing this. I actually don't hate Qui Gon's character quite as much now. Of course it might not turn out this way but it seems that this is where Lucas was going with AOTC.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
Stillakid, I agree with you about Obi's role in TPM, or lack thereof, at least I did up until I saw AOTC. I think now that the fact that it was Qui Gon, and not Obi, who discovered Anakin and wanted to train him initially and the fact that Obi Wan didn't agree with him until he was guilted into it by Qui Gon on his deathbed, will serve as a big bone of contention between Anakin and Obi Wan in EIII. Picture Anakin yelling at obi Wan in that childish, angry brooding teenager way like he does on the Gunship in AOTC, or like he rants about him to Padme: "You never wanted to train me in the first place Obi Wan! You only did because you promised Qui Gon! You were always jealous of me!" Obi Wan is tremendously rude and snobish when talking about Anakin in TPM. "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?" "The boy is dangerous..", the look on his face when Qui Gon tells the council that he wants Anakin as a Padawan. Anakin has to have picked up on this. The look on his face at the funeral when he says "What will happen to me now, and the way he says it is like he's afraid Obi Wan's gonna go ape $%#t on him or at least tell him to buzz off or something." He's always feeling that none of the Jedi want him except for Qui Gon. Something I'm sure Palpy, or maybe even Dooku, is gonna capitalize on. I'm sure of it. Cool, I just thought those things up while writing this. I actually don't hate Qui Gon's character quite as much now. Of course it might not turn out this way but it seems that this is where Lucas was going with AOTC.

I could buy that! :) The "connections" are still "shaky" b/n the OT and Prequels, but I agree that something more has to be "revealed" about Qui Gon's character for his character to become a valid addition to the saga. Whether it takes the form of your ideas or Qui Gon appears as a ghost, I could be convinced to "see the light" and accept the guy. :)

bigbarada
05-28-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


(do we hear the name Anakin in ANH? I can't remember)

No, and the name was pretty much unknown until ROTJ, in the Star Wars newspaper strip that started in 1978, Luke's father was referred to as Tan Skywalker and Lucas approved it an left it be even though he knew that ESB would conflict the comic strip portrayal of Luke's father (who wasn't Vader until the second draft of ESB).

Let's play the word game in favor of TPM.:) If Obi-Wan had been referring to Qui-Gonn then he would have said, "The Jedi Master who trained me." But since he used "instructed" then that obviously refers to Yoda, since we saw Yoda teaching younglings in Ep2. If you want to split hairs so fine, then it can work both ways.:p

stillakid
05-28-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


No, and the name was pretty much unknown until ROTJ, in the Star Wars newspaper strip that started in 1978, Luke's father was referred to as Tan Skywalker and Lucas approved it an left it be even though he knew that ESB would conflict the comic strip portrayal of Luke's father (who wasn't Vader until the second draft of ESB).

Let's play the word game in favor of TPM.:) If Obi-Wan had been referring to Qui-Gonn then he would have said, "The Jedi Master who trained me." But since he used "instructed" then that obviously refers to Yoda, since we saw Yoda teaching younglings in Ep2. If you want to split hairs so fine, then it can work both ways.:p

Trained...instructed...at the moment, I'm not motivated to go look them up in the dictionary for minute differences. :) But point taken.

At the moment, as it seems that a major overhaul of the OT is coming anyway, it is prudent to accept TPM as setting the new standards. It doesn't change the consistency between the versions of films out now, but hopefully he'll weave it all together without destroying the beautiful cloth that he created a long time ago.

Bosskman
05-28-2002, 08:29 PM
The overhaul in the OT won't affect the story. I'm 99% sure of that. What I see happening in the DVDs of the OT movies is a visual overhaul, like the SE was only up to todays , or rather EIII's standards or better. Here's what I think will happen:

AHN:

SE Jabba fixed to look like Jabba and not like his love child with Grimace
Enhanced background effects and probably some estabishing shots for places like Mos Eisley, Yavin IV, the Death Star, maybe even a ground to ar shot of Alderaan with an aged Bail Organa looking up at the DS before it blows.
Luke's lightsabre on the Falcon blip fixed.
Maybe some additions to the Battle between Ben and Vader somehow to make it look better and Ben's sabre effects fixed.
Special features of the cut scenes like for the TPM DVD, possibly with minor ones added into the film.
Maybe some additional scenes, not in the movie, but in the special features section like the abolishing of the senate, Vader's return to the Emperor after the DS explodes, etc.. just for a "I wonder how that went" sorta thing.

ESB:

Enhanced background and establishing shots as per above in ANH. Maybe more exteriors of cloud City and Echo Base, maybe even Dagobah.
The old monkey/old lady emperor holo replaced with Ian McDiarmid.
Minor additional scenes, if any minor ones were actually cut.
Extra cut scenes in Special features like the Wampa attack of the base scene. Maybe some extra scenes as described above for ANH.

ROTJ

Fixing Sy Snootles and the band, make them less cartoony (If they made Sy look like the old puppet with the motion of the CG one I'd die a happy man)
Enhanced background and establishing scenes on Endor, Tatooine and the DSII.
Minor cut scenes added with bigger ones like the sandstorm saved for special features. I hope they put the B-Wing Scenes with Ten Numb (the whits one like the figure) back into the film.
The Padme footage could be part of either a flashback (I hope not), as a ghost, or more, probably, as part of the special feature, a "what happened to Padme scene."
The end sequence expanded with more planets maybe, and hopefully better music.
Maybe more Jedi ghosts, or ghosts of other characters like Shmi, Owen and Beru, I don't know but it's possible. Jedi aren't the only ones who can have ghosts afterall, at least not in the real world.
More Ewoks getting killed and more vicious Ewoks, make the battle more realistic and less muppety.

That's how I picture the overhaul of the OT. I could be wrong but I don't think George will change the story of the movies to suit the PT. He said, afterall, that the Prequels would change it enuff as it is. I'm sure he'll make them all fit together, especially after all the gaps bridged in AOTC. EIII will finish the job, and the DVD's will bring the special effects of all 6 movies togethr in a more consistent way. That's how I see it.

JediTricks
05-28-2002, 08:49 PM
How does one explain that Qui-Gon Jinn didn't even exist in the first draft of TPM, and that Jinn's part was almost completely taken from what Lucas originally had given to Obi-Wan in that film? It seems clear to me just by that point that Jinn is indeed an interloper in this matter and even when TPM was first being written in the '90s that Lucas originally had meant Obi-Wan's words about his training from Yoda to be straight-up.

bigbarada
05-28-2002, 11:46 PM
So stuff changes. So what? Vader wasn't Luke's father in the first draft of ESB. Luke didn't exist in the first plot outlines of ANH. Han was an alien Jedi in the original story outline. Luke and Leia weren't brother and sister in the first draft of ROTJ.

Changing plotlines and character relationships are part of the process for Lucas. None of that has changed. People judging the prequels are doing so too hastily IMO, watch Ep3 and if your questions aren't answered then you can say that GL is contradicting the prequels (by then I will no longer care). Lucas is not an idiot, he knows that this kind of thing is driving fans crazy and helping keep interest in the movies up. Why make Dooku Qui-Gonn's former master if Qui-Gonn was a throwaway character who only existed to get killed by Maul? Obviously there is something else going on we haven't seen yet. So wait until Ep3 and all your questions will be answered.

2-1B
05-29-2002, 02:56 AM
B - thanks for clearing up "Anakin" in ANH, I wasn't quite certain but still used it in my positioning.

JT - I agree with your post. I like Qui-Gon, really I do (I'm big on Liam Neeson so it was easy for me to dig his character). Anyway, I certainly think TPM could have been better with Obi-Wan in that role . . . he didn't have enough interaction with Anakin in the first part of the prequel trilogy, so I only get to indulge in their relationship in 2 films, not a whole trilogy. I still do like TPM, but in the bigger picture I think it works better as a set up to a prequel trilogy in which we get more of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan (think Luke/Han over 3 films for comparison).

stillakid - I don't think we're on the same note with the "feeling the disturbance in the Force" line. Oops, I didn't realize you were thinking of the "elsewhere, elusive" line - I was referring to their quick convo before Qui-Gon heads out to look for parts on Tatooine. I believe Qui-Gon says something to the effect of "be wary, I sense a disturbance in the Force" to which Obers replies "I feel it also." I'm sorry, I should have included the context for better clarity.

But since you brought it up, what a goon Qui-Gonn is! :D
Little padawan Obi senses something foul aboard that Federation ship, but his insightful master doesn't sense anything. :p

bigbarada
05-29-2002, 04:18 PM
I looked it up for you:)

instruct - to give knowledge to. TEACH, TRAIN (gah! there goes that theory)

train - to form by instruction discipline or drill :(, see Thomas ;)

Oh well, it was worth a shot; but wait if I really wanted to reach to make my point then I could also use one of the meanings of "instruct" which is "to command." Thus Yoda could've commanded Ben to go find Luke on Hoth, and that would've been what he meant. "The Jedi Master who instructed me **the last part garbled by 'Force Static'** to come find you here."

Okay, I didn't think so either. Man I hate proving myself wrong.:mad:

stillakid
05-29-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I looked it up for you:)

instruct - to give knowledge to. TEACH, TRAIN (gah! there goes that theory)

train - to form by instruction discipline or drill :(, see Thomas ;)

Oh well, it was worth a shot; but wait if I really wanted to reach to make my point then I could also use one of the meanings of "instruct" which is "to command." Thus Yoda could've commanded Ben to go find Luke on Hoth, and that would've been what he meant. "The Jedi Master who instructed me **the last part garbled by 'Force Static'** to come find you here."

Okay, I didn't think so either. Man I hate proving myself wrong.:mad:


Thanks for the effort! :)

It really comes down to whether or not a person wants to look at what the films really are saying or if a person wishes to "fudge it" a little to make it all fit. Perhaps that's what Lucas was counting on, that we wouldn't notice. My personal opinion is that he just didn't care and figured that he could make any necessary adjustments to the OT later on. It looks like that'll come to pass.

Darth_Stevious
05-29-2002, 10:12 PM
I think that GL will change some of the dialogue in the OT for the Ultimate edition to give with what he is doing in the PT. The reason I think this is the fact that he still continues his films as works in progress. Changing a line now 20+ years after the fact is no different then changing it on the final edit before release. With modern CGI technology I think he would even be able to change the movement of the actor’s lips so that he/she speaks the line necessary on screen (kind of like JFK in Forest Gump only better animation with better technology). I don't know if I like the idea, but I think he (GL) will have no reservations about doing it.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
JT - I agree with your post. I like Qui-Gon, really I do (I'm big on Liam Neeson so it was easy for me to dig his character). Anyway, I certainly think TPM could have been better with Obi-Wan in that role . . . he didn't have enough interaction with Anakin in the first part of the prequel trilogy, so I only get to indulge in their relationship in 2 films, not a whole trilogy. I still do like TPM, but in the bigger picture I think it works better as a set up to a prequel trilogy in which we get more of Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan (think Luke/Han over 3 films for comparison). I gotta agree with you about TPM being more like a preface to the prequels than a prequel itself. While there are some interesting elements to the film, I think it doesn't really give anything up to AOTC, AOTC could have been the starting point (AOTC has enough stuff to be 2 movies by itself really IMO) with only a few lines of dialogue or a brief mention in the opening crawl to explain away TPM's events that were important to AOTC. Qui-Gon is an interesting character, but I don't see what he brought to the table for Ep 1.


Originally posted by Darth_Stevious
The reason I think this is the fact that he still continues his films as works in progress. Changing a line now 20+ years after the fact is no different then changing it on the final edit before release. See, I think this line of thinking has been what Lucas has been cramming down our throats for 5 years now, but it doesn't work for me because of these things:

1) Lucas' talents, opinions, and point of view have changed over the years and no longer fit with what he believed in when he first made Star Wars 26 years ago;

2) Lucas was not the only one making important decisions which shaped the original films when they were initially released, he had people like ANH/ESB producer Gary Kurtz challenging him to be better and to cut stuff that didn't fit ("Little Flash Gordon" and that "whistling in the Death Star halls" stuff comes to mind).

3) Lucas released a film 25 years ago that captured the imaginations of our society so much that it was welcomed as modern myth, and Lucas took full advantage of that for the films' promotion as the years went on. However, the society that truly turned a great little sci-fi fantasy film into the cultural phenomenon that it is today didn't spend 25 years experiencing Greedo firing first or Luke screaming as he fell to his presumed-death.

I will throw out #3 and the first 2 are still valid IMO. Lucas can claim it's the same piece of artwork no matter how many new strokes he adds, but how can it be the same when the head artist has changed so much? How can it be the same when he refuses to allow those others that helped make the films so fantastic in the first place take place in these new changes?

stillakid
05-30-2002, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by Darth_Stevious
Changing a line now 20+ years after the fact is no different then changing it on the final edit before release.

4. Except that the difference is that it was released. This after the fact altering of artwork wasn't really possible technically or financially until quite recently. The film industry is entering a brand new phase of creative existence being spearheaded by Lucas himself. He's setting a dangerous precedent for those that can afford it. It's one thing to claim technical liability for shortcomings in his work and quite another to go back into the edit bay and change the storyline just because he can. If the tools to create his vision weren't available to him back then, then perhaps he should have just not made them until later on, when the technology was there, instead of ruining something that has turned into a classic experience and has grown far beyond his own control.

2-1B
05-30-2002, 02:43 AM
At the end of the intro docs to the Special Editions, I'm told by the narrator to "sit back and enjoy George Lucas' definitive vision of the Star Wars Trilogy." Fair enough, but how definitive was it in '97 if there will be more changes in '05/'06? So that's a good point JT. ;)

bigbarada
05-30-2002, 04:55 AM
A side note: GL did let Irvin Kershner screen the SE of ESB before it was released. The opening up of Cloud City was done in reaction to Kirshners complaints of the set looking "cheap" during filming. So in a way, GL did seek out Kirshner's opinion; even though it was after the fact. This is all talked about in the ESB 20th Anniversary issue of the Insider, in the interview with Kirshner.

Kirshner didn't really think the Wampa scene or Shuttle scene were necessary but he didn't think they hurt. He was most happy with the improved Hoth battle and the aforementioned opening up of Cloud City.

Darth_Stevious
05-30-2002, 05:41 AM
Jeditricks and Stillakid: I never said I agree with GL on this ;)
I was simply expressing what seems to be GL's mindset.

I do like some of the changes he has made to the films. Mostly the benign ones, like removing the mat lines from the TIE fighters. I also like the additional Wampa footage that was added. Most of the other changes I don't really care for.
Seeing as this post's original topic was ROTJ, I feel that the SE treatment of ROTJ is the worst of the 3. There was absolutely nothing added that enhanced the film in any way. The whole song and dance routine was garbage plain and simple. The one scene that could have benefited from some SFX improvements (the Rancor) looks like they didn't even touch it. I haven't much cared for ROTJ for several years now (yes when I was a 13 year old kid I liked it best) after the SE came out I liked it even less. If it wasn't for the final duel between Luke and Vader and the big space battle around the 2nd Death Star the film would have very few redeeming qualities.