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Dryanta
04-30-2002, 09:09 PM
I just re read page 17.I didn't see anything there might trigger a parental block.I don't think there's anyhting here at all that would do that.

Jason B
04-30-2002, 09:42 PM
he said s_ex and s_exual (without the underscore, wouldn't want to block him from this page again. ;)) a couple of times. those programs block all web pages with those words on them, regaurdless of the context. :-|

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 09:46 PM
Hmmm.
the page 17 I have doesn't even have a post by tycho.Differences in computers?I also show 26 pages of this thread.

Jason B
04-30-2002, 09:51 PM
your posts/thread must be different than everyone elses. this page here is 17 for me, and i think everyone else. :p
EDIT: the default is 14 posts/thread.

Tycho
04-30-2002, 09:58 PM
About parental blocks: you never know.

Anyway Dryanta, I made a list of all your questions you've asked me to address one way or another and will attempt to clarify stuff for you. This will seem a little random, as it will be like a footnote page more than a response essay, but here goes:

1) When I said the Columbine killers had to denounce God to free them to carry out their suicide-pact terror murders, I didn't mean that they were claiming they would not be accountable to God. I guess I should have phrased that better. They did not believe in God, so they didn't have to denounce anything. The killing of the religious girl was to denounce the believer. A universe with no God to hold them accountable would hold nothing Godly for them to denounce - save for the followers they wanted to have shot.

2) You said Man's law cannot be trusted to be perfect, and it's true our justice system has flaws. So you said you trust the Bible. I think myself, Stillakid, and Dar 'Argol's point is that MAN wrote the Bible. That is what WE believe. Thus it is no more trustworthy, and possibly no more consistant (with the Dead Sea Scrolls or King James, The Book of Mormon, the Torah, The Q'aran, etc.) You asked once how we could believe in evolution if we didn't go and conduct the experiments ourselves. Granted, I accept your conditions and that I have taken "faith" in science and there are dubious motives in science, as there are in all politics. Since I believe religion portains to social controls, otherwise known as politics, than there could be dubious motives at work when Man publishes the Bible, reforms the church, or decides how to celebrate mass, etc. Hence, if you have not personally handled the Dead Sea Scrolls and learned to translate them, you are no better than I am, having not shot lightning into chlorophyl to produce amino acids. However, without Chlorox, I could almost be doing this in my kitchen sink. (Perhaps a new kind of lifeform that feeds on the chemicals in my mouse droid would evolve over time - but my apartment complex manager wouldn't like that!) :D

3) As far as proving entropy, evolution, etc. I don't know how to. My "faith" in science allows for us to go looking for artifacts, fossils, and so forth, and perform tests on them and subject them to probabilities to seek those answers though. If I take a sample of the air (of the Heavens) and look at it under a microscope, would I see God? In the molecules of Creation perhaps, you might say. But you have to believe that we were created by an all powerful God.

Right now, we are ill-prepared, but capable of colonizing other planets. There could have been multiple Gods, just like there would be if we sent John Glenn, Neil Armstrong, Michael Jackson, and Heidi Fleiss to populate another planet. We could send them with 2 of every animal, and we could conceivably lose contact with them. Maybe they go through a black hole to another planet, where they can survive, and we rediscover that society a millennium later. They might all be descendants of Michael Jackson but look like "Planet of the Apes," wear one glove on their right hand, and make pilgrimages to the landing site of the first discarded Pepsi Can. They would worship us as Gods - or if one of us came (with a vending machine) as The God, and Creator of Exact Change.

Who is to say evolution did NOT happen? But that WE, or life on earth, was NOT created, seeded, etc?

We have the ability to become Gods now. If there had been Giants, why could they have not been aliens. Maybe there is some truth to Zues, Apollo, and Athena. Only on our lost colony it would be Michael and "Bubbles" instead.

You can't prove that it was not aliens. Jesus could afterall have even been a different alien. If there are Greek Gods, why couldn't there also have been completely different Roman ones? Why so many? Was earth ever colonized? Is that how the pyramids and Incan / Mayan temples were raised?

4) You asked me why I would judge anything possible to be Not Wrong - such as killing - and then judge whaling as wrong (in order to decide to target them). I really cannot.

I also cannot say that causing an appocalypse and human extinction is wrong either - nor is whaling until the creatures no longer roam the seas wrong in that light.

However, I am saying if we value practices that can be universalizeable and good for our own continuation, I am saying that we should value diversity in the species and the health of our whole world's ecology, and it would be best if we preserved the whales and prevented suffering.

Actually killing the whalers just elminates that category of human being - one which is escapable via change-of-career planning anyway. We are not elminating human beings. Just a voluntary classification of humans. * (I get to religious whaling in a sec.)

This goes along with us making contracts with governments (by accepting citizenship under them) and agreeing that creating our own extinction would not be too swell, so we should outlaw murder, and try and limit our resorting to warfare.

If we keep killing each other until there's noone left, especially with the destructive power we've learned to harness, it would not be wrong. Afterall, it's possible. It would only be the expected outcome. If that is undesireable to us (and I think it would be), then we must create artificial laws (or belief systems) that act as safe-guards to prevent this from happening.

WE decide what is right and what is wrong! Duh. That is what I should have said all along. Or I just wasn't clear - My fault!

* If religion sets up a social-guideline structure, than the Eskimos doing survival whaling respect the replenishing of their revered food source and do not destroy whole populations to hunt a species to its full usefullness in materialistic for-profit-product saturation. From food delicacies in the pursuit of restaurant profits, to whale petroleum based products in make-up to automobiles, it's getting carried away. That's the difference.

Jason B
04-30-2002, 10:05 PM
uh...how often are whale products used today?they're pretty much non-existant. not the whales, the products. :p

Tycho
04-30-2002, 10:09 PM
It was an example. That's all. But with fewer whales, there would be fewer products. And with Green Peace and restrictions on whaling in place - there would be fewwer products. I don't think we need to pursue the technicalities of whaling. Just pick a vice or group of people you consider to be voluntarily commtting that vice, then imagine a circumstance where you could establish justice by killing them - and no man would know or pass judgement or punishment upon you. That was the purpose of the example - only to illustrate that.

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 10:10 PM
Thanks for that tycho.I need to snoop around alittle more and then go to bed.I will edit this post in the morning with a response or what ever.'Night tycho and thanks again for the input.

Tycho
04-30-2002, 10:21 PM
Hey Dryantra:

I just want to say I respect your beliefs and hope you always do your best to act consistent with them.

To me, "man's creation of religion, a bible - whatever" and its following is a beautiful thing that protects many of our innocense. From your life, I don't refer to you as being amongst the innocent, certainly you've lived. But the sheltered and the innocent are a beautiful thing, as I suppose there's still some part of all of us that wonders if that state of being is real, and if it is as joyful and carefree as it looks.

Anyway, I hope you never change as long as you are confident and happy with who you are. You seem to be.

Though we have opposite beliefs, it reaffirms who we are to test and discuss them like this, and the dialogue here is becoming a real joy to look forward to.

I don't think anyone else thinks you are less intelligent or balanced for following your full faith in the Bible.

I think (to me) you are less cynical than I am - about what is physical (a Bible) and what is said to be Of God - a concept that is not tangible, testable, and relies on the word of man and what he may produce that's tangible (your Bible).

But in light of everything, and being agnostic like I am, I do not believe in Hell or the concept that our Creator would damn even those to whom Christ's word had never reached, which include the remote jungle peoples, and the cynics of modern Western Civilization. Even if aliens made us for the cruel purpose of seeing whether we would follow their rules, shouldn't they be bored of tossing us to Hell by now?

Later, I will be happy to discuss how I feel there is a higher power in my life, a spirituality and a protector if you will. And also what I think Ghosts are and what happens after you die, when I die, and after Basic John Doe dies. They might be different things!

Jason B
04-30-2002, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Just pick a vice or group of people you consider to be voluntarily commtting that vice, then imagine a circumstance where you could establish justice by killing them - and no man would know or pass judgement or punishment upon you.

you know, i though about posting a couple of things, but your reply just blew me away. all i can say is:


. . .

*heads off to bed shaking head*

Tycho
04-30-2002, 10:51 PM
I hope I've clarified that I wouldn't do this, or that I believe it violates man's laws that I hold dear, to go and kill people because I've pronouced judgement on them. I don't really have that right.

I used that example because I have a violent, animal nature that I control, through reason and logic*, but neither physical limitations nor religion prevents me from killing. Entering into a codified belief in my contract with the government in Sacramento that grants me citizenship in the State of California that prohibits murder by law, prevents me from acting on impulses I may naturally have. I do this because to kill is largely illogical, and my contract with my government empowers the authorities under the State of California and its sub-governments to protect my life and seek justice in the event of my being murdered. It is in my best interests that all citizens of California, and its visitors, obey this statute.

* We all have that inner, darker side of ourselves, that none of us will admit to, none of us would openly share. But I dare!

What we acknowledge we can better study and be prepared to deal with. Such is the nature of the psyche and the truth about mankind.

(Quote half-borrowed from Captain James T. Kirk in his first Star Trek episode ever - and it would seem to support the fact that philosopher Gene Roddenberry, a retired Cop-turned-writer, would agree with me).

Anakin Skywalker243
04-30-2002, 10:55 PM
Ya and I hope Natalie Portman loves me I mean she should ya know. Sorry just had to get something in this thread.

Dar' Argol
04-30-2002, 11:24 PM
Dryanta, I re-read throught that post 6 times, And I still don't know if your on the same topic or not. Geezzz there's a lot of info going round in here. I am going to ask 1 question of all of you, Dryanta, Tycho, JesusFreak, stillakid, Big-B, everyone. This does not really require any kind of anylizing(sp) of how I put this, or where it lies in the Bible, or what Dr. Laura said. It is a simple question, and should come from the heart.

What if you found out tomorrow that everything you have posted here was wrong? It matters not if you are pro- religion or con, literalist or scientist, realist or dreamer. What IF everything you believe in was proven, without a shadow of a doubt, wrong?? What would YOU do??

This is a question that everyone faces at some time. Scientists who's theorys blow up in their face after they spent 20yrs working on them. Think of the ppl who knew the earth was flat, how would they react to finding out that the earth is indead round??

Me, I would be dumbfounded!! As much as I am a dreamer, I am also a realist. I don't know how I can be both, but I am. It would take God himself to step down from the heavens and land right infront of me and tell me to my face, that I was wrong, that the only way into heaven was throught the Church. After the bomb settled down though, and not without my quick tounge, I would probably look at him and say, "Well, I better go pack some shorts!!". If I'm gonna go out, its gonna be on a smart arse comment:D. He'd probably laugh though:D

bigbarada
04-30-2002, 11:30 PM
I've been away all day and it'll take me forever to catch up on the comments made here.

Let me just say one thing about the author of the Bible. I KNOW it was written by God; but I cannot prove it. Just like a father knows that he loves his son; but can he really prove it to an outside observer? Does he really need to? Many things cannot be verified with data or facts; but that doesn't make them any less true.

bigbarada
04-30-2002, 11:37 PM
Dar'Argol, since there can never be any "beyond a shadow of a doubt" proof that God doesn't exist then I don't think the question is relevant. There is no evidence that a man can show me to make me lose my belief in God.

Dar' Argol
04-30-2002, 11:44 PM
LOL
I mean no disrespect, but you kinda missed the point. Its kinda like Marvel Comics "What if" series. Or the X-Men series that tried to show how our favorite mutants would be IF Professor Xaiver died. Its a "What IF it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt." I know it could never be, but think outside the box. How would it affect you, would it change the type of person you are. Really sit down and think about it. I am not asking you to change your beliefs, I am asking you to concider an "Alternet Timeline" so to speak. Everyone here has but a lot of energy and thought into Standing up for what they believe in, do the same with this question and really think about it.

Tycho
04-30-2002, 11:53 PM
I'm agnostic, but I don't believe that if I met God, he would call my life into account for how I don't study the Bible or pray. I am a good human being. That's what matters.

That's what I believe matters.

I suppose you are asking if it doesn't. That only the literal worship of the Bible matters?

Then I'd still plead my case and go to Hell or non-existance when He got tired of listening to me.

I'd really consider myself a fool (not to call others who do believe that label) to waste my time studying life lessons in fictional literature when I already act decently towards my fellow man already.

I would have the satisfaction of judging God as He judges me. (If he was going to toss me to Hell or whatever). It's not right. I don't have children and abuse them (to death or constant suffering - or at all. I don't even have children, but...) So it just wouldn't be logical. It wouldn't be right.

Furthermore, if "God came down and personally talked to you" as a burning bush, or an Old Man, or as Elizabeth Hurley in a mini-skirt, would you then believe it was HIM? I would not.

Just because a burning bush talks to me, doesn't mean it's God. Even if that is prophesized. The true path to wisdom acknowledges that we all know NOTHING. Me too. You must question everything.

Maybe it's a hologram. Maybe it really is just a crazy old man. Maybe it really is Elizabeth Hurley - in which case I'd jump at the chance to sin right there on the spot! :D

But I wouldn't even take God at His first appearence and word for it...

Would I follow their Commandments? I might work out an agreement - especially if they wanted to be my friend. Maybe I'd tell them what they want to hear. Especially if Elizabeth Hurley wanted to be my friend :D

Dar' Argol
05-01-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Furthermore, if "God came down and personally talked to you" as a burning bush, or an Old Man, or as Elizabeth Hurley in a mini-skirt, would you then believe it was HIM? I would not.

LOL
I just had Monty Pythons "The Life of Brian" flash in my head after reading that:D.

What I am actualy asking is based on each person here, their own beliefs, what if they were wrong. I am not saying anyone is. Think of your beliefs, and then think the opposite. Example:

If you are a strong atheist and it was proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that God does exist and he is responsible for everything.

Or if you believe in God with all your being, and then it was proven"BASOAD" that creation was an act of ramdomness, and man did evolve from apes.

Its a question to get your mind thinking, not one to question your beliefs. I'm just interested in everyone's "reactions" to this "news". I enjoy seeing how ppl react to a certian situation. It may sound morbid but I enjoyed seeing the "reactions" of everyday ppl during and after 9/11. I did not enjoy how i got to see those reactions, but it was interseting to see the "core" of a person shine through so clearly. I love to study ppl and watch them. It makes understanding your fellow man a lot easier when you watch them first.

But if you still cannot get the concept of the question, then ignore it and move on, its a mind flexer that is not worth analysing or agruing over.

SithDroid
05-01-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Sithdroid, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," is actually slightly misinterpreted. The actual Hebrew translation refers to what we would consider "premeditated murder." There is a difference between murder and killing. Killing usually is done in self defense or one the battlefield (which is a form of self defense; because if you don't act, you will be killed). Murder is killing someone who is not threatening your life of the life of those around you. It is actually planning to take and taking the life of someone around you for petty reasons of rage, greed, jealousy, pleasure, revenge, etc.

BTW, we already answered all the Dr. Laura questions, read a little closer and try to have an open mind, instead of just coming to the rash conclusion that we don't know what we're talking about. I can see that you already have us classified, Sithdroid. You think us to be ignorant, sheltered morons and you only ask questions to try and trip us up, not because you want any real answers. It's a game that I am sick of playing and I am definitely sick of repeating myself answering the same inane questions over and over. If you have no intention of actually considering our point of view then you should probably not contribute to the discussion.

BigBarada - I am not asking these questions to offend you. I really do want to know the answers to them. I am trying to learn as much as I can about organized religion. I eventually someday DO want to become more dedicated to a religion, but there is just so much that I don't understand and agree with that I just don't feel like it would be fair for me to participate in something that I am not 100% commited to. Don't get me wrong, I DO beleive in God, but I beleive that subscribing to one religion just puts limitations on your relationship that you can have with him. Perhaps someday I will subscribe to it all, but as of right now I choose to believe what I want.

Also One last question before I go. If God is all knowing and all seeing, then I believe IMO that he can see the future. If this is indeed the case, then why all the "old" references in the bible. Certainly God would put out newer editions to keep up with the difference in times. Just a question I pose, no offense to anyone.

bigbarada
05-01-2002, 01:09 AM
Sorry, if I snapped at you SithDroid; but you caught me at the end of a very long day.

As for you thinking about maybe "subscribing to a religion" in the future, then I would advise against it. If that time ever comes that you want to know "what it is all about" simply ask God for direction and He will guide you from there. However, brush up on the Ten Commandments first, if you hear a little voice guiding you to bomb an airport or shoot an abortion doctor, then it is highly unlikely you are hearing the voice of God and you might need psychological help.:) In all seriousness, if that time comes, then all you NEED TO KNOW is in the Bible, not in a church or a religion. It may not give you all you want to know; but that's the nature of life.

As for the age old question of how a "loving and forgiving God" can let all this bad stuff happen in the world or let good people go to hell? It is true that God is a loving God; it is true that God is a forgiving God; however, He is also a righteous God. You must be completely sin free to earn your way into Heaven. Not even the inkling or thought of sin must have ever crossed your mind in you entire life for you to be worthy of Heaven. Impossible? Definitely! NO ONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED ON THIS EARTH* has lived a life without sin; not the Pope, not Mother Teresa, not Abraham, not Moses**. Only through the sacrifice of Jesus, who led a sinless life, can you get into heaven. Basically, it's like trying to get backstage at a concert, you have to know someone on the inside. Jesus already paid your way into Heaven and already took the punishment for every sin you ever commited or will ever commit. All you have to do is believe in him "beyond a shadow of a doubt," be truly repentant of your sins and accept him into your life.

I can already anticipate one question: If Moses and Abraham aren't sin free then how did they get into Heaven since they died before Jesus was born? Simple, they didn't go to Heaven right away. Before Jesus' sacrifice the chosen ones from the past were kept in a Garden-of-Eden-like holding area of Hell called Paradise. It was simply a place that the "saints" (for lack of a better word) who died before Jesus' crucifixion stayed. When Jesus died, He went to Hell, took the Keys of Hell from Satan and took all of those in Paradise into Heaven.

As for the question of why God doesn't update his word: well Islam believes the Koran is just that, an update of God's word without the "distortions" of Moses and Jesus. I could try to talk this one around in circles and make up reasons; but the true answer is: I simply don't know. I would guess that maybe He's said everything that needed to be said and doesn't want to say it all over again. Who knows? However, just because it is old doesn't mean it is irrelevant.


*Except for Jesus Christ.

**Only two people from the OT, according to the Bible, were ever taken directly into Heaven without dying: Enoch and Elijah. How they managed this is unknown. It is also considered the closest thing to proof that the Bible was divinely inspired. If man had made this up, then entire chapters and countless books would be dedicated to how these two men managed to please God enough that He took them directly into Heaven without them experiencing death.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 02:10 AM
I really don't mean to offend, but I am really laughing out loud. This stuff sounds that ridiculous to me. Like a made up story.

Let me add to it please!

Once there was a mighty dragon who had 10 claws. He sacraficed each of them so that dinosaurs could be given the 10 Commandments. God liked "Puff" so much he took him directly into Heaven. But then the dinosaurs didn't follow the 10 Commandments. So they were swept from this earth by the changing climates and the breakup of Pangea. And they were all sent to Hell.

But Puff was so saintly, that he wanted to save all his kind-o-saurs and he descended into Hell to contact Satan and struggle with him. He huffed and he puffed "Let my people go!" And then each time his torment pleased the Devil, Satan let one of the dinosaurs go. Their spirit ascended back to join the Creator in Heaven, and we know this because their fossil is uncovered by man as testament to God's will, each time a paleontologist finds another dinosaur. And this is also why Dragons breath fire. There aren't really dragons any more - it is only the saintly Puff the Mighty Dragon. When he "breathes fire," he is actually carrying the spirit of one of his kind away from purgatory and into the Kingdom of God in Heaven.

I know this because distant evolutionary ancestors of mine were reptiles and the Mutant Ninja Turtles came and told it to me in a vision I had. They referred me to an error in your Bible. Several chapters that relate to Puff's ordeal have been omitted:

The Book of Dino

The Book of Barney

And the 7 Psalms of Godzilla

It is convenient how Jesus ignored all the lessons that were meant to be taught to us and encourage us to value other lifeforms, especially in the human repulsion to reptiles ever since the Serpeant's first sin and the temptation of Eve. But it is those like the Holy Puffer that set an example for us today, and reflect on how we are supposed to make sacrafices for our fellow brethern in life with which we share this world.

Do you believe me now? How do you know this is not true?

Why do hundreds of cultures tell tales about Dragons, yet no one has ever seen one?

If you try and experience a whiff of Puff, and inhale his essence in your heart, with your Mouse Droid as your talisman, the Dragon will come to you, my friend. You must have faith!

Do not think I mock you. Because my Reptile Religiouso' is a religion subscribed to by only 1 human that you know of - me, how do you know that all the snakes and geckos and salamanders do not believe in Puff as I do? Have you talked to them?

Your stories of Godly miracles are incredible and very hard to imagine. You might say that about mine. But how do you know that rattlesnakes don't keep a written Bible. I bet none of you have ventured into their nests to discuss it with them. You fear them because they are poisonous, but they will respect the faithful! Like the powers granted the Ark of the Covenant, the Rattlesnake has been given what he needs in order to defend the word of God. Only the pious will survive the strike of truth you will find - it is only so shocking that it feels like venom. But that is because the truth is so hard for the average mortal to deal with. One must be tested before they can fully absorb the whole enlightenment that comes with one Puff.

bigbarada
05-01-2002, 02:36 AM
Your amusement is noted; but it still doesn't change the truth.

Sorry you can't see it for what it is.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 03:54 AM
Ah-ha. But was I really being cruel or mocking about seeing the Bible as a fairy tale with my example?

I said I was not.

And many of the Native Americans talked to their Animal Guides and their Gods took animal forms.

Surviving a rattlesnake, and more often a King Cobra's bite, is a sacred ritual in some African / Asian religions or medacines.

This theme also works in Voodoo religions.

All of these are put down as pagan, and at the least, unenlightened in the eyes of the worshipers of the One God.

However, I just illustrated by my example with Puff, that these cultures could have been inspired by a belief in your God as well. And if He had no way for Jesus' Deciples to reach these people, He might have spoken to them in another form - or He might have been many Gods, as in the Native American animal gods.

Not to mention that shapeshifting aliens could take those forms to communicate with the one lone monk. Those who thought they were demons probably came back with all kinds of stories of Wherewolves etc.

There is so much we do not know, it is impossible to know anything. We are on a journey, and if our species survives for a long time, we may well never complete that journey, but we will have learned a lot from the road we travel.

I hope that can be said for all of us journeying together along this information highway in this little thread we've dedicated to Jesus Christ.

bigbarada
05-01-2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Ah-ha. But was I really being cruel or mocking about seeing the Bible as a fairy tale with my example?

I said I was not.



You may have said (or typed) that you weren't intentionally mocking the Bible; but we both know that wasn't the case. How about arguing what you believe instead of this hypothetical nonsense?

Tycho
05-01-2002, 05:50 AM
I will try. Hope some laughs came out of the last couple of my posts, as well as the groans from those that think of me "He just doesn't get it!"

OK, I feel I've been given some gifts. I am articulate. I am a quick learner (at what I am interested in). I took to my education very well and remember things that even surprise me from time to time that I recall them. I am good with people in person, and I communicate fairly well online (I hope). I am good natured and mean well towards most everyone, and folks say I have a big heart I give from.

I have an obvious anger or angst and itch with religion, that much is obvious, as I get insolent to say the least, but try to hide that in the humor of my past posts.

That I can first relate to being born "different" from everybody else on that ground. I was born into a Jewish family. Largely Jewish by direct descent, it is pretty well mixed religions in later generations (my parents' generation and my own, though both my parents were born into the Jewish faith).

But my father was a United States Navy Officer and that was first and foremost the influence in his life and "upbringing" he gave me. We lived in a southern California community almost all my life, that was largely full of all different kinds of Christian faiths. I have very few Jewish friends, or even acquaintences, but I was the only kid on the street who did not have Christmas lights on his house, and a tree in his window.

I grew up with Star Wars, remember. I got my action figures either earlier or later than all my friends, because Hannukah was on the Old Hebrew's lunar calendar, not the Roman one. So for that matter, I was always different than my friends - they were jealous of me when I had the toys early, or I did not share in the joy on Christmas morning when we (as SW Fans) celebrated our "real" faith. But when I was young I stayed awake all night wondering what was wrong with me? Why wasn't Santa bringing me the Millennium Falcon or a Death Star Playset? Could I see the new toys if I spotted him going down the neighbor's chimney?

So God must not love me equally, because everyone else seems to have the same - and it looked much more joyous and better to me.

They had family Christmas' and my father and mother were barely ever getting along well enough to have a holiday with the family, let alone the fact that my father had worked for the Naval Intelligence Service and then did jobs that kept him at high stress levels and often traveling. He did not adapt well to be suddenly thrust in and out of civilian life and the roles of being a husband and a parent. From a kid's perspective, all the Christian families on the street (my friends') were 'normal.' I saw tv commercials that showed me how their families went to Christmas sales at the mall, sat on Santa's lap, got their wish lists together, and lived happily ever after. As a kid you believe that stuff.

Now I had thought God was with me. I feel something is ...looking out for me. Giving me strength. I am a very strong individual and I learned to stand alone. With no family, with no friends I was actually "One" with. So I felt something gave me strength. Maybe it is the future spirit of myself? Maybe it is God? A God? A personal one? I don't know, but my strength and my skills made me feel I was important and special. And I achieved great things in school and in sports, and in life. I am confident I will end up an important government leader in my future. Do you know why? I will earn it more than anyone else, and I am destined for it more than anyone else. I believe that, so no one can stand in my way. I really am that strong. I've told the mayor and the council of this city what needs to be done here, and I've made them listen to me. To me? Yes. Trust me. I am quite well on my way to establishing myself.

Now I read an Old Testament child's Bible that my grandparents wanted me to read. I remember some of the gist of some of the stories, but I think I was too young for them then (when I read them) as Star Wars was more flashier. I'm just past 25, so understand that Star Wars was in my life since nearly the beginning and was a key element in forming my concepts of right and wrong, and my spirituality.

I saw a parallel between a difficult father and Darth Vader, to be sure. But I also believed in the Force, and that it was something I couldn't access because I was just a step off from achieving enlightenment and understanding the true nature of the universe. But I never have believed there to be a Dark Side of the Force. That is subjective and a tool used to teach morality by fictional characters, because they too are in need of passing on simplistic value lessons to their padawans, without the time for giant philosophical discussions about ethics. In that sense, the fictional characters become more realistic because they must be like us.

But our religions were divisive and cruel. At their worst, they are causing this Middle East Crisis, and at the very least, they hurt me as a child by making me different from all my friends. I've been angry at any God there might exist for that for all my life. If He exists, he ought to fix this problem. I have not been born into the middle of a blood feud, but had I been, I'd have felt more welcome and jumped right in, belonged to a side, and tried to express my rage through extreme violence. We've established that I'm capable of it, and a fire in me burns for it. For some kind of release. Star Wars is a fantasy outlet that fits because it allows me to imagine the circumstances when it could be time to fight the good fight.

Now I do believe in evolution regardless of there being a God, many gods, or none at all. Our progenators might have only been our ancestors (humans, and before that apes) or they might have been something else, but they guided us through survival of the fittest and natural selection.

Perhaps my "guiding spirit" I sense is doting on me is giving me the tough love treatment, making me stronger for some purpose I am supposed to serve in life. I think we create our own purpose, myself. But public service so well suits me, and I've accomplished so much, that it feels like it could be my destiny if I'm using my natural gifts. (in which case I am actually pre-determining my own destiny, so there isn't one after all, but I was speaking in generalities).

Well, I don't know if I'll be electible because I won't hide my views, and I'll practice the same tough love on the 'education' of my constituents as I have been growing up with. In my studies of political science, I learned there are 2 kinds of elected officials: those who represent, and those who are delegates. The first type is self-explanatory. I am the second type. I will run on campaign promises to do specific JOBS. I already have established that track record in my community on public projects I have taken leadership positions in. But I DO think I know what is best for other people, and if they give me the authority, I will use the empowerment that I win.

I spoke before of competition for resources amongst the species in natural selection. I also said that Power is a resource. I have already been naturally selected to wield power. Power to evolve my community into a better place. To enlighten my neighbors on what we can do if we come together as a city. I save people's small businesses when it comes down to it. In that sense, I save their lives! I have my community's trust and I will not compromise it or betray it. That's not in my nature. But I will decide what's best for them or someone will have to beat me to my next promotion. Right now, that doesn't look like it could happen.

I admire powerful characters, even fictional ones, and I am making my alliances like Palpatine. I am seeking a New Order. And I am using analogies because it is fun, but I am not seeking to create evil just because the figure in my example does. (and I'm not even sure that was the fictional character's intentions anyway. People largely misunderstand the Sith as it is -fans do this, amazingly enough).

Anyway, as the anti-semetic might attribute all this to the Jewish effort to take over the Western world, I must state that only the Nazi's would want to see me put to death as a Jew. I never was barmitzvahed (spelling?) and I do not subscribe to their faith. I see Judaism as a religion. Some see it as a race - as it can become that with a minority religion (in this country) and a lot of practicing Jews brought up to only marry within the faith. I sort of don't fit that category, as my family is a mixture of ethnic backgrounds (meaning national origins) and we are many, many generations American, as well as tracing our routes to Germany and Austria (with 1 part Russian). So we are all (in my family) blondes, blue or green eyed, and very fair skinned - not the typical look for the Orthodox Jew pictured by the stereotype for the religion, but rather a Central Eurpoean ancestoral look or Scandinavian appearence. Our look has landed many of my family members in show business, and I myself was in Starship Troopers. (I am debating whether I should put a picture of myself up or not. I do sort of look like Rogue Squadron's Tycho, so that can stay for now). But I am also related to several famous movie stars, a Playmate of the Month (I won't say which month my cousin did, but this was her 2nd feature), and we have an MTV "v-jay" in the family - though to me that's embarrassing. (Can't stand the idea of her show! Like we need anything but music on that channel???) In any case, I lay down the reasons I don't believe there is a Jewish race. Just like Mexicans and Italians can both be Catholics...

But I have also laid down the damage I think was done (to me) because there are different faiths.

Being told by my grandparents how important it is for Jews to be proud of who they are today, and that they were not exterminated etc., I find it important to interpret that as being proud of my grandparents who I deeply respect (though I do distance myself from my family intentionally I admit). I might point out to my grandparents that they were both born in Indiana, U.S.A. and hardly any of my relatives for up to say 5 branches back on the family tree (at least) were in Europe to face the Nazi purge, (other than in the American military) but it's important to my grandparents, so I'll respect that because I love them.

But I don't need these conflicting ideas about what New Testament or which new Prophet is right or wrong! I don't need to be judged as to whether I am a good person by some supernatural authority waiting to damn or bless me. I made some pretty easy to follow decisions about right and wrong and follow them, and people who know me seem to think I'm an honorable person, and someone that many in my community like and trust. In many ways I am becoming a very public figure. I'll accept their judgement on me. But I will not hide my darker psyche. In fact the decision to not hide any part of my beliefs at all really is part of my honesty and my value I place in having people deal with me when they know where I'm coming from (which is the reason for this long diatribe).

But I do think that if you met me in real life (or at the Celebration in Indianapolis?) you would likely not want to take a swing at me because you know how I'd like to react, but just as equally true you would feel comfortable asking me for help if you needed it, because you'd also know the responsibility I'd assume for you if you asked.

I like myself as a person. Very much. I have to watch my own ego about that or I will sound too self-righteous for MY taste!

But it is late and I don't know if I finished answering this question about what it is I believe. But I think I shared a part of my spirituality because I posted a lot about what I FEEL.

That's part of being human too. A Jedi feels what's right. It might seem to conflict with thier mandate to apply reason or logic to a situation, without emotion. But somehow it does not. I'd like to write more about that, but I'm going to have a heck of a time adjusting to Midwestern time for the Celebration as it is. Plus I still have to work one more day (today) Wednesday, before I'll be falling asleep in airports trying to decide which plane I'm supposed to be on...

Jason B
05-01-2002, 07:18 AM
i never would have thought that it woukld be a moderator that would turn this thread the wrong way. :( :rolleyes:

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 08:41 AM
Hey Dar,
sorry if i got carried away.There is alot of information around here.That's why have to do this before I get into the other posts from lastnight and forget.Oh and Tycho I said I'd edit the other post with my what ever this morning.disregard that.To many posts in beyween to have it make any sense as far as the thread goes. Now to shift to sithdroid for a sec,In my response to your "killing" question when I used the word "you" it was meant to be taken as a general term not you sithdroid personally.Sorry i should have taken more time and been clearer.
It's a good question dar.
Just as side note.There is only one thing that would prove to me my faith was empty.If someone found The cruxified body of Jesus of Nazareth.If he was not raised then everything from begining to end is empty.O.K. with that said,here is my attempt:)

Would it change me,oh definately,I would very easily revert back to the person I was(see previous post ;) )and even worse.I would be an absolutely terrible father eventually,and husband for that matter.Good person? nope,why? It does not come naturally or easily to me.I have said before I don't like alot of what I believe to be God's plan.So walking away from it if it were not real would be incredibly easy.But it is real so it's impossible(sorry had to say it :) ) Oh you knew that was coming! Does this give you waht you were looking for?If not I'll give it another whirl.

That is the real proof to me,that I was "touched" and "changed" that night.The Holy Spirit is within and around me.He said I'll never leave you or forsake you.So because of that It's impossible.He wouldn't let me.And no I cannot physically prove that's true,but no one can disprove it either.:)Is it a delusion or Psychological thing?No.emphatically no.So if IT was a mental thing how and why would or could any body believe ME?You don't have to.
As a really poor analogy of my POV of what I 'm doing here.You invite me over to your home.As I pull up to your house I see that your car is on fire.Now do I A. imediately tell your car is on fire? or b. just go in sit down and act as though nothing was happening outside.? Here's my personal answer,a.that is what IMO someone would do if they considered themselves to be a friend.Let you know something is happening that you may be unaware of.If I didn't ,how long we be friends?My guess would be not very long. So if I tell you and you choose to do nothing that's O.K it's your car.I lived up to my end of it by telling you.Right?Same Perspective of this discussion for me.Just telling you your car's on fire because we're friends.No fire pun intended either.;)
So it's easy to see why it's easy to say that the man made creation of religion or in my case the bible has benefitted society and me and mine.So would it have been a good idea for men a long time ago to make it all up in an attempt to benefit or control or both,society if not only individual people.Good idea?seems so yes.Possible,Not in my opinion.How many people are here in this one thread at this particular point in time.15 20? Now look at how much a varience in ideas and belief there are.Now the idea that men from three different continents,view points,and over a long period of time,could write a massive work like the bible,and have it all click,and sorry:) never anywhere contrdict it self,is stranger to me than the idea of God doing it.I guess I didn't need to tell you that.;) So is the answer to it,That it possibly, very first book written ,was passed around enough to enough people to have influence enough to make them want to add to it.carefully studying very closely to make sure there were no contradictions from what was written before.Possible,I personally think if that were the case they'd still be working on it.:) And I know some think or just have questions about wether or not there are contradictions.
Here in lies the impass we've reached.If you as a individual do not believe the Bible is the word of God then nothing we say can be proven to you.I as someone who believes that the word of God is exactly that,then you could show me nothing,except the above mentioned body,that would ever change my mind.Is that irrational or closeminded?No more than your reaction to others ideas."religion" definately has it's own motives,hidden or otherwise."science" does to,it is not as impartial as some people would have you believe.So it boils down to this,if the bible is not real it's still more than a fictional story,it has been around and prominent that it should be considered as a theory.Same as almost everything science can produce.Agreed?I think we can make a real shift in this discussion if we can all grab onto this proposal.And this I have written in general terms but I'm sure you got that O.K.
So here we are.I personally would very much like to proceed with this,with the current understanding that NONE of us are going to change anybody elses mind.We can only share what we believe or do not believe.There should be no insult implied or taken,there're only opinions right?;)

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 08:52 AM
Holy cow BigB,you were tired!!!
For the record one man did live a perfect,sinless life,and isn't any of us;)
Sorry BigB had to do it:)

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 09:08 AM
Stillakid,
I believe what I believe because I have seen God work in my life and in other peoples' lives. Everyone has difficult times in their lives, but in MY case, God has pulled me through when no one else has. There have been times when I thought there was no more hope for me. God led me through the storm.
Now another example.
My mother suffered from depression for several years. At one point things got so bad she became suicidal. The ONLY thing that got her through and saved her was God. He took her and brought her through. I remember watching her fall to her knees and thanking Him for saving her. With tears running down her eyes she thanked Him for making her see how precious a gift life is. That is my proof. That is why I believe.
This is just my personal experience, Stillakid. I am sure you disagree with this as well, but you asked why and I have told you.
But mind you these are just words on a screen and they cannot come close to the experience itself. I have seen God work in my life and I know it cannot be a mistake.
Thank you.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Let me just say one thing about the author of the Bible. I KNOW it was written by God; but I cannot prove it. Just like a father knows that he loves his son; but can he really prove it to an outside observer? Does he really need to? Many things cannot be verified with data or facts; but that doesn't make them any less true.


That's an incorrect statement. You believe that it was written by God. There is absolutely no way you can know it. You're comparison is apples and oranges. Whereas a "feeling" or "emotion" is intangible, the Bible is quite tangible. It is an actual entity that we can see, touch, taste, feel. And as such, we can (attempt to) empirically trace it's origins back to it's creation. It is universally "accepted" that actual human beings wrote the words on the page, though even that, can't be "proven" as it happened so long ago. But there is precedent for witnessing humans writing words on paper, we infer that the Bible was also written by humans. As we have no precedent for a supernatural being putting words on a page, to infer such a thing would be a "belief," not something you can "know" as fact.

You can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it true until some level of investigation or measurement or observation can take place.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid,
I believe what I believe because I have seen God work in my life and in other peoples' lives. Everyone has difficult times in their lives, but in MY case, God has pulled me through when no one else has. There have been times when I thought there was no more hope for me. God led me through the storm.
Now another example.
My mother suffered from depression for several years. At one point things got so bad she became suicidal. The ONLY thing that got her through and saved her was God. He took her and brought her through. I remember watching her fall to her knees and thanking Him for saving her. With tears running down her eyes she thanked Him for making her see how precious a gift life is. That is my proof. That is why I believe.
This is just my personal experience, Stillakid. I am sure you disagree with this as well, but you asked why and I have told you.
But mind you these are just words on a screen and they cannot come close to the experience itself. I have seen God work in my life and I know it cannot be a mistake.
Thank you.

Thank you for answering the question. It's not that I disagree with you, but as I just replied to BB, you can't know that it was a god or a supernatural being that helped you do anything. You can believe it all you want, but when it comes down to it, you don't know it for certain. If you believe in God, you have to believe then that he created our brains, our minds, and our consciousness. Why is it so important for you to give someone else credit for your own strengths? The mind is a powerful thing. How so? In college, I got a severe case of Mono from intense fatigue. I was so sick that I was in danger of not returning for the following semester. I believed that if I didn't return, then I would "lose" my new girlfriend (who later became my wife). I wanted so desperately to go back to school that I literally "willed" my body back to health. The doctor was actually dumbfounded. He really couldn't believe it. How much "praying" did I do? Not once. Mostly because I was asleep most of the time (anyone who has had Mono understands this), but it just never occurred to me. And guess what? I got better anyway. I never felt any wave of good feeling come over me or "god's presence" or something. If you want to believe that god whooshes into your life, then you can convince yourself that it actually happened. Maybe it did. I don't know, but my point is, that you don't either. There's no proof of such an intangible thing, so there is no truth in it. Just belief.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Dar' Argol

What if you found out tomorrow that everything you have posted here was wrong? It matters not if you are pro- religion or con, literalist or scientist, realist or dreamer. What IF everything you believe in was proven, without a shadow of a doubt, wrong?? What would YOU do??




There is nothing here that I've posted that has been definitive, so nothing could be proven wrong. I've been consistent in stating that none of know anything for certain. We don't know much, but using good science, we can infer the most likely scenarios and those that are less likely. Unlike the literalists, I'm open to anything.

Last summer, on a typical Sunday, in the middle of a typical Mass, a guy that no one had ever seen before, stood up in the middle of the Homily and said, "I'm sorry, Father, but I just wanted to tell you that I am Jesus and I have to go." He was a normal looking guy, in his early 40's or so. Nothing out of the ordinary about him. He left his pew and went out the door. Now, was he really Jesus? To this day, I tell people that I don't know for sure. It would be really easy to dismiss him out of hand as a crazy kook, but the fact of the matter is, I don't know. Maybe he left the building and vanished into thin air. I don't know. I didn't follow him to see. The "probability" is that he wasn't Jesus, some people there that day might have believed that he was, but the fact remains that no one knows one way or another.

Having said that, if God popped down today in a supernatural way and explained it all, it would be difficult to explain away. I'm not so closed-minded, like many, to say that the Universe was constructed one way or another at the expense of allowing for newly acquired knowlege by varying means. The Mormon Church is the fastest growing religion in the world right now. Maybe they "know" something that I don't. Maybe Joseph Smith realy did get visited just like Moses was! Who's to say? There's a lot of BELIEF floating around and not a lot of actually knowledge.

So my whole point into calling into question JesusFreak's original post was to ponder just what his goal was in posting his "message" complete with footnotes referring back to the Bible which is supposed to "back up" his assertions. He has since admitted


Originally posted by JesusFreak
BTW stillakid please please don't call be a Bible scholar even if you were being sarcastic because I am certainly not one, though I wish I was.

Here is a guy that bases his life so strongly on a Book that he doesn't even know very well. What's up with that? He and others believe it so strongly, that they are willing to defend it vigorously despite a distinct shortcoming in knowledge about it.

A few days ago, I posted an email that I received from a friend concerning the latest theories about the nature of the Universe. I was asked for more. There isn't any right now. And that's the point. We are still searching for answers. None of us know any of them right now. We can believe anything we want, but actual knowledge will only come with time and patience and perhaps even with death.

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 12:54 PM
Hey stillakid,
Thanks for the responses.That is the real impass we have reached.I believe that the Bible was written by God through human hands.You don't.And I do mean you add specifcally because I don't want to make any blanket statement.And neither of us can prove and or disprove what the other is saying.We agree on this.100%
Now I'll steal a page from Tycho's(who I still haven't forgotten) book so to speak and bring you something from my level.
1 horse power =33,000ft lbs of work done in one minute or 550 ft lbs per second.O.K. mathmatical fact right?Prove it.In the real world.
I can step out in the shop and with time and money I can take an 80 cubic inch, 1340cc Harley davidson motor that churns out from the factory 57 hp and turn it into 131 inch and around 130 hp.
O.K.? My point is this.the final drive WILL have to beefed up to handle the extra torque.But look very carefully at the math of the issue.THey do not make a final drive that mathmatically can stand up and still fit on a motorcycle.
So when we both say what can and can't proved in a physical way,what do we mean.I think you're saying that without physical proof that God wrote the Bible it can't be proven It is faith.I say I can't give you physical proof but I have faith right?
Now if the above circumstance is true that a mathimatical imposability can be proven in a physical way then why put faith in physical proof?
I was thinking about going into the whole Bumble Bee and Helicopter thing but I have to admit I don't really know any thing about that except what I 've heard.So I'll stay away from it.
So this is where I am right now.I have faith.And I think you have faith.Right? Not in the same thing but unprovable faith none the less.
So where to we take this from here.Only one of two choices,we either all talk about our ideas and beliefs with truely open minds,or we end it.I persomally don't want to end it.
Think of it as "point,Counter point" set up.Some one says what they believe,and some one simply offers their belief if any on the same subject.No bitterness or offense taken by any one.It's faith right? so why does it seem to stir up defensive feelings?I hope I have not insulted anyone.infered or otherwise.That was never my intent.If it were, you'd of had no doubt in your mind.I'm as subtle as a train wreck.
If any one has questions to ask ask them,what harm could that possibly do?
Just who ever understand the POV of the person giving the answer.O.K.
I guess this' kinda what we have been doing.I'd like it at this point to absent of any rhetoric or challenge to prove one's self right.Because after all we know as of right now that can't be done.Let's go guys.

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 01:11 PM
Hey stillakid,I wa writing the above when you posted.Sorry I missed it the first time around.
This is not meant to be an inflamitory question
.Just a simple question.O.K.?
Isn't the the statement'Nobody knows" definitive?
No really no sarcasm at all.serious question.
I think that question for you would be what if you found out beyond shadow of a doubt that some people did know something?
I don't know.I will agree that is the one point you have had from almost the begining.You have been very consistant on that,and needs some respect.
One more if I may,What is you personal opinion of what happened to me?NO really share it,no offense will be taken.Assumeing you have any idea.You may not.
If anything I hope at least for myself that I do know my faith,and what I say I believe.I hope I haven't led you to believe I don't..Sorry again.I have to go over what you just posted to be fair in my responses.I'll respond in a bit.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 01:11 PM
Man, you gotta stay glued to the chair to keep up with this thread.

I know that this is a long post and reading through long ones can be difficult. The first 2/3 rd's are direct responses to specifics. Important conclusions are drawn near the end of the post. Thank you for your continued patronage.



Originally posted by Dryanta
At the very end of the Bible it says this"For I testify to everyone who reads the words of the prophecy of this book:If anyone adds to these ,God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words,god shall take away his part from the book of life,from the holy city,and from the things which are written in this book."Now does that refer to Just the book of Revelation or the entire Bible.It's at the end for a reason.I believe the whole book.Even if it's only revelation that has been added to as well.
Now that's the difference between Joeseph Smith and Moses from POV.
There is also the strange points of the mis-spellings of the word of god.The man wore a hood over his head and transcibed the Book of morman one letter at a time.Now if God is giving him the letters,Why the mis-spellings?They are still printed and reprinted over and over.
My POV Take it how you will.:)


Okay, you believe the whole book. Consider this post from a while ago which no one jumped up to disown themselves from:


Originally posted by JesusFreak
Thanks Bigbarada. I'm sorry I didn't answer your questions stillakid, this topic keeps growing that its hard to keep up with everything. Just like bigbarada said, the Old Covenant was there until the Messiah (Jesus) came and set the New Covenant up. There really isn't much I can add to what he said. I would just like to point out that you shouldn't think that the Jews in OT times were saved by the law, they were saved by faith just as we are today, faith in the Messiah coming, we have faith that he came. I'm not a good speaker at all. Bigbarada said it much better than I could.


Just so I understand it correctly, you (Dryanta) believe in the entire book cover to cover, unlike others, like JesusFreak, who has decided to toss out half of it. Does that mean that JesusFreak should expect a plague sometime soon? He seems like such an upstanding Christian kind of guy. That would be too bad. I’d advise staying away from him, but since it’s a “holy plague,” it’s probably very localized.

Which brings up another quick question: you have read every single word of the Bible, haven’t you?



Originally posted by Dryanta

Now as far as the letter you posted in the begining of this thread,
It's really not fair to forget that I offered to answer them to the best of my ability.And I left it up to you.I may have mis read your reply but I took it as You didn't want ME to.Sorry,I'll do it now.:)
The first question doesn't make any sense really.
Lev.1:9 says this""but he shall wash it's entrails and it's legs with water.And the priest shall burn all on the altar as a burnt sacrifice,an offering made by fire,a sweet aroma to the Lord."
I guess I can't really answer a snide remark.
I can tell you my POV on it.No where in this middle of a sentence quoet does it say anything about neighbors being offended.Or how to handle that.Doesn't say anything like that in the whole Bible.Why?These sacrifices were performed outside of the camp.No one there to be bothered except for the priests involved.The only other place Sacrifice was allowed to be carried out by the Priests was in one or the other of the temples later built in Jerusalem.Kind of like coming here.If you don't want to see spoilers don't come here.
Same idea,You don't want to smell the burnt offering once a year don't live next to the temple.
As a Beliver in Jesus Christ the ultimate sacrifice has been made.No need for an animal to fill in any longer.

The point of all of these questions as asked by the individual who wrote them was indeed to be facetious…to a point. He is pointing out the ridiculousness of taking this stuff so literally. And don’t forget…


Originally posted by Dryanta

Originally posted by Dryanta
I follow and believe what the Bible says word for word.

So, it being the case that you believe every part of the Bible, the question still stands. And how often and where do you or your priest go to burn a bull on an alter? You don’t?! That’s damn near blasphemous. To suggest that it isn’t necessary anymore just because of an event that occurs later on in the book in effect tosses out the edicts laid down in the earlier chapters. This connotes the understanding that the Bible was indeed not written by God, rather it is a continuing storybook written by human beings with all of their own prejudices and human failings influencing the words. More on that later.


Originally posted by Dryanta

Slavery.
Do you know what the perspective of slavery was at the time?I know most of us eqate the term with our own American history.Not the same thing.
The slavery of the time was quite often voluntary.They would treat it in some cases as an appprenticship.They were free after six years after all.They were free to marry any one they chose ,had all the priviledge of the legal system.If they were abused the same exact thing would be done by the authorities to the "master"(SEE EYE FOR EYE TOOTH FOR TOOTH that's where this comes from).If a "slave" was diabled by someone they were free with all the privaledges that came with it.If someone were to kill a slave they were put to death. Did you know they were Heirs in some cases?How about in charge of any and all children,included in all family functions and religious ceremonies(not as Servants).
But there are also cases where they were captured in battle,bought,or even born into it.Anyone who kidnapped someone to be sold into slavery was to be put to death.The same exact priviledge and rights were afforded them as any other.They were almost always trusted advisers to others,Having duties that at times some one wouldn't trust their own sons to do for them.It was also sometimes as debt repayment and sadly even they were given as gifts.
With that said, on to the selling his daughter comment.Slavery in this verse is not the same as described above.It's a reference to an arranged marriage that was also very common place.The "payment" described is where the dowery came from.

That sounds a bit like you’re “interpreting” the literal words of the Bible. If you’re going to open that door, we can start knocking those dominos down again starting with Genesis. How about that “camel through the eye of a needle?” We’ll get back to that one later as well as the idea of humans writing this within their own particular experience in their own time and place.


Originally posted by Dryanta

Question three is just plain stupid.If this person is going to try and and make a real arguement of his points he needs to read what he commenting on.If the bible says that about uncleanliness,does it not also say no sex before marriage?
So why is such a pias individual such as he asking multiple women?How many of you with wives or girl friend have ever found that she's had a problem telling you NOT NOW for this reason.IMO not very well thought out question.And the reason for this particular law is because the risk of infection was incredibly high for both man and woman because personal hygene wasn't what it is now.

Ok, I’ll bite on the pre-marriage thing, but let’s rephrase it for my wife. She’s an understanding individual, but I usually have to put the moves on her first before she pushes me away explaining that she’s just started her period. So what gives? How do we get around this? Maybe if she put a hanger on the doorknob or something… I’m not sure at this point if you’re doing it intentionally, but you’re approaching these questions from the most convoluted point-of-view in order to argue them. It’s not difficult to look at them head on…unless it’s too frightening to.


Originally posted by Dryanta

Question four I think I've already covered.But I do want to give more specific answer to the foreigner issue.I can't comment on what his "FRIEND" thinks,sorry.As far as foreigners.In the Biblical POV if a "pagan" foreigner was brought into a hebrew home He was under the same covenent with God as the Hebrew family was.Another reason why entering into bondage was at the time sometimes voluntary.They wanted that relationship with God and would be "adopted Jews"I mentioned more on the Biblical POV of slavery in previous post.

Sometimes voluntary means sometimes not. So the question remains, can we own Canadians?


Originally posted by Dryanta

question five.Sabbath work.Should he be put to death? are you morally obligated to kill him your self.In the eyes of God aLL sin deserves Death.He draws no distinction.That's why Jesus died.Animals were used as proxy until the time of Christ.Sin BTW is anything he told us not to do.Or not doing something he told to.Disobedience in a nut shell.Jesus mentioned this quite a lot."Let he without sin cast the first stone" in other words forgiveness is the Key,the real high road,not the easy way of just getting people out of your way.Something the Jews of the day had lost track of.So the question isn't are you morally obligated,but rather are you morally able?
question of degree's of abominations.See above God draws no distinctions, we do.ALL sin is is an abomination to Him.

Okay. You’ve just explained it, but failed to answer it. All of us that work on Sunday’s from time to time are guilty. I believe what you are suggesting is that humans shouldn’t take the punishment into their own hands rather just wait for God to dole it out. I suppose this leaves some wiggle room so that we can over-work ourselves, and then repent on our deathbeds. But I do have another question. As a writer, if I get an idea on Sunday, am I allowed to jot it down or risk forgetting it if I wait until Monday? That sounds facetious but in the strictest description, I’m going to Hell for that. Nice God you got there.

Oh, and you conveniently forgot the shellfish question – Lev. 11:10, although I’ll construe from other answers you’ve given that a sin is a sin, so the old people that eat at Red Lobster are just as damned as homosexuals. I suppose the Church wouldn’t miss their weekly contributions too much if you headed over to tell them that they might as well forget going to Mass ‘cuz they're doomed anyway.


Originally posted by Dryanta

The defect question.Let me elobarate to a few other things that are forbiden from approaching the altar,Veil,or from offering the bread on the altar.Blind,Lame,Marred face(me) or any limb too long,Broken feet or hand,Hunchbacks,dwarfs,defect of the eye,eczema,scab,or is a eunich.Here's a few others that are not mentioned in this passage.No women or any one other than a Levite(one from the tribe of Levi) Only Levites were alowed to be temple priests.I can't answer.I'm not god.I didn't say it He did.
If I were to venture a guess it would be to foreshadow the character of Christ.Spotless.with out blemish.All sort of people came directly to God for healing and got them.So is God some kind of bigot to certain people he created? no.The temple and actually approaching God are two different things.So the answer is sorry no wiggle room. His altar His rules.

Sooo, as a practicing Catholic, I assume you went through First Communion at some point. Are we all damned by default? And again, it’s starting to sound like you’re interpreting again. No no no! Remember, literal means 1) in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the primary or exact meaning of a word or words. 2) word for word. 3) Concerned primarily with facts. 4) Avoiding metaphor, exaggeration, or embellishment.

Of course, BB decided...


Originally posted by bigbarada

Your amusement is noted; but it still doesn't change the truth.

…that “truth” doesn’t need “proof,” simply “belief" (which is an incorrect summation as I've clarified in a previous post.)


Originally posted by bigbarada

Dar'Argol, since there can never be any "beyond a shadow of a doubt" proof that God doesn't exist then I don't think the question is relevant. There is no evidence that a man can show me to make me lose my belief in God.

I’m going to assume that you feel the same way. So, if I believe that George Bush is really Elvis come back from the dead, it falls under that ruling and is therefore “true.” Silly, huh?


Originally posted by Dryanta

The hair cut question.The verse isn't speaking about cutting your hair it's talking about shaveing the sides of your head and disfiguring the edges of your beard.Probably refering to pagan custom of the time.The idea of being noticably set apart from others.As a sign of being hebrew.So they don't have any worries.Unless they are Jewish Punk rocker or something.
:)

Probably? Are you interpreting again? And in the writer’s reference point in time and geography, no less? If God’s word is universal, it would not have applied just to “ancient” people from a specific geographical location, rather to all people, at all times, in all places. That includes us, 2000 years later, in a land that those humans at the time didn’t even know existed. No, if we are to take this book at it’s literal word, it’s edicts apply to all of us and everyone at everytime, anywhere. It sounds a lot like you’ve conveniently interpreted yourself out of a potential pickle.


Originally posted by Dryanta

dead pigs.He said they are unclean for the hebrews.So if you are a Jew and still have a football made out of a pigs bladder. I'd recomend throwing it out and going to Walmart and get a much newer football

My wife was raised Catholic, yet her grandmother was Jewish, which, in effect makes her of Jewish descent. However, you’re trying to skirt the question again. What about the NFL players who are Hebrew? Are they damned?


Originally posted by Dryanta

Ok multi part answer.The term two different crops doesn't apply what it says is "Mixed seed"The passage also tells not to let livestock inter breed BTW.Polyester isn't a natural thread like the mentioned "linen and Wool";) I can't answer this part.I honestly don't know why.

Yet you believe it word for word, nonetheless. Why again, exactly?


Originally posted by Dryanta

Everybody getting together and stoning him for Blasphemy.It's not accuarte to lump the field and garment thing with the stoning.The bible does not say they needed to be stoned for that.Nice try though.Blasphemy is one of the "Big Ten" and again falls into the catagory of " the wages of sin is death"

Nice try, but a sin is a sin according to you.


Originally posted by Dryanta

question of degree's of abominations.See above God draws no distinctions, we do.ALL sin is is an abomination to Him.

So, while the author of these questions mixed his punishments a bit, they both are effective and hurt a lot. The question still stands. Do we beat them to death for it? Don’t avoid answering the questions by being critical of the wording.


Originally posted by Dryanta

Because of the fact that the savior of countless millions was to come from the Jews,it was of the utmost importance to keep them as jews and not allow them to be swayed by every other culture that was aound at the time.If you were to sin in a way that was blatently public then He said they were to die in the same way,to deter any one who had seen or heard the offense from doing the same.
Now I am not now or was I then angry about tycho's post.Just asking a question.And I have to disagree it's not difficult to face these questions for me Certainly not extra.All I am doing is being honest with my attempts at answering these things.If you think for a second that I'm afraid you'll shatter my faith or even get me to question it .You're giving yourself to much credit I'm afraid.And I have to say it seems to me anyway that there has been more anger pointed at me than any I might have shown to you.And that's is the problem with impersonal nature of this.To much room for assumption on peoples tone and mood.I know I'm guilty of mis reading you all at some point.

No anger. Just curiosity. Where you see good solid answers on your part and on the part of others, I see a lot of deflections, half answers, or just plain denials. I’m not surprised, and that’s the point I’m trying to make. Trying to take all of this literally is impossible because they are impossible to answer. It is not possible to take it all word for word without a certain degree of interpretation going on. And, as I’ve said, if you’re going to open that door, even a little bit, then the floodgates are open to call into question all sorts of things mentioned in those pages. You can’t have it both ways. Take it literally or don’t. Make up your mind.


Originally posted by Dryanta

Punish Myself?Have you ever had a job that really sucked?Did you stay?Punishing your self?Same thing.My faith is unescapeable.hardly punishment.That's is my point about man made.Why would anybody follow a faith that goes against everything that comes naturally to us?They wouldn't unless it was real?And as Literaly as I do,becasue,again it's real.And I have made an attempt to give you proof from my own experience.And that's not good enough for you.And that's O.K.I don't take it personally.It's your choice to believe what ever you want.And you are right it does seem irrational to some one who does not understand it.No big deal.You think you're the first to be convinced I'm an Idiot and any body else like me?Not even close.Be a good person? that is another difference in our POVs.Alot of people believe that we are all good people that do bad things.I believe the opposite.We are all bad people that sometimes do good things.And you can believe what ever you want.Again God affords you this RIGHT.And so do I.


Yet you fail to answer “why?” At some point in your past you obviously read the Bible cover to cover and then decided that you were going to believe every word in it’s most literal sense (or so you say). What is it about that book that makes you believe that it is a true story more than picking up the Star Wars novelization and believing that it is true? You say it’s “real.” How do you know that? How do you know that? How do you know that? Should I ask it again? How do you know that it’s real?

Look at it this way. If God was so universal and powerful and above all of the physical laws that govern us, then why doesn’t He reveal himself simultaneously to EVERYONE on the planet instead of playing these little games with missionaries and a book that is called into question by so many? If He really wanted us to believe in Him and all the Rules you say are soooo important, then why doesn’t He just come right out in clear view with clear language and say it? What’s with the games He’s playing? Then, if He did come out and make it all clear to everyone, then there’d be a level playing field. We’d all know the rules so when we decide to break them, then there’d be a clear case for eternal damnation. Instead, you’ve decided that He’s set up this subtle little system where we don’t even know what the rules are or why they are there or who they apply to.


Originally posted by Dryanta
I can't answer this part.I honestly don't know why.

If it’s all that important, and God is so powerful, then why hang so many people out to dry with unclear rules of the game?


Originally posted by Dryanta

The camel and needle.Actually no.I have never heard any discussion about this verse being a challenge to literal interpretation.It's a common figure of speech of the time.Like "Pot calling the Kettle Black" or"more fun then a barrel of Monkeys" or "cool" "Radical" "fly"
It was also made in response to a rich young man that came to Jesus saying he had keep all the aws of God.And wanting to know what else to do to follow him.Jesus said sell all you have and give it to the poor.and follow me.He gets sad and walks off.Proving he was full of it.He just broke a pile a commandents by his arrogance and refusal to do what God told him Too.Money meant way to much to him.And it does to most rich people.That's what the comment is about.Just a figure of speech.

So, it isn’t so much the Word of God, rather it is written by men within the context of their own experience. So, the Bible isn’t an infallible lesson at all, but a continuing and changing story told by men within a definitive time, at a definitive place, within a definitive context. A God with a message to deliver to people 2000 years hence most likely would be loath to deliver it with “figures of speech” knowing full well that language would evolve with time.

So, if we’re talking about “figures of speech” now being present in the Bible

(figure of speech n. An expression, as a metaphor or hyperbole, in which a nonliteral and intensive sense of a word or words is used to create a forceful, dramatic, or illuminating image.),

then we’re not talking about a literal point-of-view anymore

(literal adj. 1) in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the primary or exact meaning of a word or words. 2) word for word. 3) Concerned primarily with facts. 4) Avoiding metaphor, exaggeration, or embellishment.),

which calls everything you’ve claimed to this point into question.


Originally posted by Dryanta

It's a common figure of speech of the time.

Hey, you said it, not me.


Originally posted by Dryanta

The wiggle room thing is a mute point.But the answer is no IMO.Christians of real faith never made room for any other prophet.Jesus is God.Not a prophet.If god says this is the final revelation than it is.And the jew,did not make room for Jesus either.Some belived most did not.
And thanks for otherwise intelligent person compliment.:)
Hey my beliefs that's all.you asked.;)

"If God says this is the final revelation than it is." And you believe that "God" said this...how? What makes you think that He actually "said" this? What supernatural occurrance is actually known to you where God "said" this or put it down in writing? A bunch of humans wrote a whole lot of words down, but how do you "know" that those humans were under the direct influence of "God" as they put pen to paper? You don't. You can "believe" it. But you don't "know" it. You weren't there. You didn't talk to the guys. You didn't know the guys. You don't even know if it was just one guy named "Mark" for instance. Maybe like the Sistine Chapel, it was a number of people who contributed. You don't know. We don't know. No one knows. No one knows. No one knows. You can believe whatever you want. But no one knows.

Thank you for the response, however your beliefs are all over the board. I'm just looking for a consistent answer. :)

bigbarada
05-01-2002, 01:14 PM
Stillakid, you're trying to reason your way through this, it can't be done. I seem to remember you mentioning that you have a son, who I assume you love very much. However, can you prove that? I'm sorry but if you can't offer any proof of the love for your son, then it just isn't true.

I believe in my heart that everything I have stated is true. I cannot prove it; but you cannot disprove it.

I think JesusFreak's devotion to the Bible and to Jesus, even without knowing everything about it, is exactly the point of it all. You don't have to know, just believe.

Stillakid, you seem to be obsessed with "fact" and "data" well that just doesn't exist in matters of God. Why would God create the world and leave no evidence of his existence. He did leave evidence and it is all around you. The world itself is God's proof of His existence. Thus, whenever it comes time to face him no one can use the excuse "I never knew You existed."

Tycho, it's become blatantly obvious, from your last post, who your god is. Yourself.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Hey stillakid,I wa writing the above when you posted.Sorry I missed it the first time around.
This is not meant to be an inflamitory question
.Just a simple question.O.K.?
Isn't the the statement'Nobody knows" definitive?
No really no sarcasm at all.serious question.
I think that question for you would be what if you found out beyond shadow of a doubt that some people did know something?

Yes, it is a definitive statement, however I will attribute it to the general weakness of our language to convey thoughts that seemingly contradict one another. Your point is taken though. I seem to be saying that we definitively know that we definitively don't know anything. It's all depends on one's point of reference. I am fairly confident that I am sitting in front of the computer typing right now. However, I may not be. I may just be a dream in some giant's head. I could be a bit of data in a Simm Family computer game. From my perspective, I am real, though in "reality" I may not be. Einstein brings up this problem when his discusses relativity.



Originally posted by Dryanta

I don't know.I will agree that is the one point you have had from almost the begining.You have been very consistant on that,and needs some respect.
One more if I may,What is you personal opinion of what happened to me?NO really share it,no offense will be taken.Assumeing you have any idea.You may not.
If anything I hope at least for myself that I do know my faith,and what I say I believe.I hope I haven't led you to believe I don't.

I have absolutely no idea what happened to you and as I see it, it has no bearing on the discussion in any way. Unless this becomes an episode of Oprah with a lot of crying, I'm trying to look at all of this as objectively as possible and personal stories of tragedy or whatever are not PROOF that God exists, PROOF that He wrote the Bible, or PROOF of anything beyond our own personal emotions. We can "believe" we are having a sense of pain because it is only ourselves that "feel" it. However, "proving" an emotion is impossible as it is an intangible and immeasurable. I don't know if the next guy is happy or sad despite the way he might appear to be just as much as I don't know if God had an actual hand in writing Scripture. I wasn't the guy with the pen and neither were you. You can believe it all you want. As you bring up, that is the ENTIRE idea behind the word "FAITH." If we actually knew this stuff, there would be no need for faith. We'd just know it. Churches call themselves "faith communities" all the time. It's part of the vernacular.


As far as the Harley scenario, if you recall the scientific theory email that I posted a couple days ago, there truely are still questions regarding things that appear to be mathematically impossible.

(the specific reference was to this: Another bizarre quantum effect: take an electron, spin it 360 degrees. Have you spun it completely around? Intuitively, you suppose you have, but the qmts tell us that you have not. It requires being spun around twice, or 720 degrees to get completely spun. Now how can that be? Just one of the strange but true aspects of qm say the theorists. )

The point is, we don't know. The Universe is a whacky place in terms of our current point of reference.

Although, having brought that post up, I noticed that you were quick to use science again to back up what you want to believe,

Originally posted by Dryanta
Tunneling or a form of it is in the Bible.Paul is in one town and "in that instant" was put miles and miles away.There are other examples too.

but are quick to dismiss it when it contradicts the literal interpretations of the Bible.


Originally posted by Dryanta
As far as carbon dating goes,any geologist worth his salt will tell you it's not it's cracked up to be.

You're over there saying that you KNOW that GOD is TRUE and such. All I'm asking for is a reason why an intelligent thinking human being would BELIEVE this and why he would claim to KNOW it, knowing full well that there is absolutely not one shred of credible tangible proof to back it up.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 01:41 PM
I've got to sort of joke again, but we could try a little experiment.

There's about 7 of us or so. Everyone go out and get 1 more person to join this thread and tell them my "truth" about Puff the Magic Dragon. Then we'll have 12 apostles. We'll work out a whole story to develop a moral code that will help each of us turn into lizards when we are worthy. Then print copies. Take them and distribute them at airports. Make REPENT signs and take them to harass people wearing snakeskin boots to country bars....

Try and get as many followers together as possible.

When I took Rogue's Gallery to the Dark Side, I named myself Master and I literally was gathering a Sith cult following. Believe me, I've used less personally touching "Biblical" stories here because I know how sensitive everyone is here to loving Star Wars. I could easily qualify as a Sith Priest and I probably should print a copy of the Dark Jedi Manifesto here in this thread. Do you know it was published - and to my credit - in the Australian Star Wars fan club magazine? I've never even been to Australia and I was leading "adepts" there.

With my lizard cult, I bet if we put our minds to it, we could convince the Japanese fans of the Second Coming of Godzilla!


Jason B., is it because there is no tolerance for other beliefs than your own (which I assume is Biblical literalist, or some type of Christian faith) and is that why you think I was the moderator who took this down the wrong path?

Is it my jokes because they seem to mock the Bible in terms of showing that other "miracle stories" can be concocted and told.

Perhaps I am a Sith. I did create a following and at its height, Rogue's Gallery which was a SW comic / book e-zine I ran off SSG had over 2,500 subscribers on my mailing list. When I turned the focus on the origins of the Sith, and the prequels in General, I took on a Sith Master persona. Like the movie Fight Club, I began to get a following. And that's how the Dark Jedi Manifesto started ending up in other countries fan clubs with my name credited to it.

In that manifesto, I justified (JUSTIFIED) the extermination of the Jedi Knights (a people). And it was revered and believed. To all the Jew-haters, or those that would blame them for Karl Marx and Communism etc, is my Sith's Final Solution so different from your reveared Nazi Master Race Plan? Sure it's harder to find Jedi to kill, but I made a logical argument for it. It's just more difficult to find them that it would be to locate Jews to murder, or whalers for my less inflammatory example.

So there are reasons why I am using Dragons, whalers, and Rattlesnake scripture writers. Do not underestimate the power of the Sith. There are people out there that volunteered to do all kinds of nasty things with computer viruses and all sorts of stuff (plainly illegal) because they wanted to follow me as a Sith Lord. (There was a very real threat of corrupting JediNet - a great site, just because of its title (Jedi - enemy of the Sith) and it took 20 e-mails to discourage this guy so he wouldn't do it. He was from Mexico by the way, and of course I'd never met him).

Trust me, it's scary what people will believe without any evidence. I've wondered if I should make it my mission to start a new religion - or destroy Christianity. But I've rather decided I like Christianity as I think the Romans did.

Something I forgot to write about: the Resurrection.

The Romans guarded the tomb so the body could not be removed, but Jesus did rise anyway?

Think about it: a pacifist religion that would not resist the bonds of the Roman Empire? Jesus did not preach violence, but humility and toil in this life to wait for a better Afterlife.

The Roman soldiers were ordered to FAKE the Resurrection of Christ to make it appear there was a miracle and make their colonial charges (in Israel) accept their own self-imposed restraints dictated to them by their pacifist religion. Otherwise it would have been more fun to continue throwing them to the lions. Anyone see the parallels with throwing the Jedi to the Arena beasts btw?

Anyway, because I am not a believer, that doesn't mean I'm taking this thread downhill. There is free speech and freedom of religon on this site. I would recommend a Christian site where you could post and find all people to agree with you, if that's what you are looking for. JesusFreak's post was likely intended to reach out to non-believers. He wanted to spread the word of God. Well he went looking for non-believers. Did he not believe he'd find any?

I'll have to try even harder to be respectful though. I am not trying to make jokes at the expense of the believers here. I really am getting to know and like Dryantra, and I was (and hope) that I have already been message board pals with BigBarada (who I agree with on a lot of things Star Wars and always enjoy talking to). However, I do think the Bible is sort of a joke, and how every length is taken to justify its miraculous stories. So from that standpoint, I really do think my Land of the Lizards Doctrine or even the very scary Dark Jedi Manifesto are relevant, even if they mock the Bible, because true followers just don't see how they blindly will never question their book, but scoff at the idea of me starting up an equally incredulous religion (from my point of view).

I don't want to come into this thread and preach HATE, but if you want me to prove I can get SITH Followers right out of this Star Wars site, I do have the qualifications of a Sith Master and I can bring them. I hope they will not take their religion and elitism to mean they should attack Christians, Jews, Catholics or others we have posting in this thread, but they will follow Sith beliefs in the path to empowerment to their natural conclusions. And the Sith philosophy is a beautiful work of logic and natural reasoning - not false promises of becoming a lizard and joining Puff in the afterlife. But a believeable religion is a dangerous thing. One should learn to always question and never follow blindly. That's when others, like myself, can assume real power.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Stillakid, you're trying to reason your way through this, it can't be done. I seem to remember you mentioning that you have a son, who I assume you love very much. However, can you prove that? I'm sorry but if you can't offer any proof of the love for your son, then it just isn't true.

I do love him very much. Again, emotion is an intangible. We're not talking about emotions here. We're talking about a book in which several people claim was written by a supernatural entity. Apples and oranges.


Originally posted by bigbarada

I believe in my heart that everything I have stated is true. I cannot prove it; but you cannot disprove it.

Exactly. Thank you. You believe that it is true, but you cannot know it.


Originally posted by bigbarada

I think JesusFreak's devotion to the Bible and to Jesus, even without knowing everything about it, is exactly the point of it all. You don't have to know, just believe.

I'm a little confused about this one. You day that "You don't have to know." Why do I "have to" anything? Says who? And if you reply with "God says" I'll refer you back to your own statement. You can't define a word with itself.


Originally posted by bigbarada

Stillakid, you seem to be obsessed with "fact" and "data" well that just doesn't exist in matters of God.

Why not? The book is real. And you say definitively that He wrote it. The book is data and a fact. What's wrong with asking the question about it's origin? What if you die tomorrow and find out that He didn't write it? What if, say, some alien flew down and dropped it off. Admittedly a silly example, but what if? Why is it unacceptable to ask questions regarding God? Why is that topic off limits?



Originally posted by bigbarada

Why would God create the world and leave no evidence of his existence. He did leave evidence and it is all around you. The world itself is God's proof of His existence.

I'm with you. I don't know for sure, but I like to believe that everything we see around us is proof of his existence. I've even gone so far as to believe that He IS everything around us, just blown into tiny pieces. This doesn't mean that the Bible is evidence of anything of the sort. It was a book written by men sometime in the distant history of the planet. That's all we can infer at this time.


Originally posted by bigbarada

Thus, whenever it comes time to face him no one can use the excuse "I never knew You existed."

But that's exactly the excuse that was used earlier to damn the Aborigines to Hell. The missionaries just can't get there, so the GOOD NEWS wasn't delivered. Remaining ignorant to the WORD, God screwed them over just because their souls were born in an inaccessable area of the planet.


Originally posted by bigbarada

Tycho, it's become blatantly obvious, from your last post, who your god is. Yourself.

I believe, for the moment, that we are indeed all a part of God. At some point in the past, He divided his consciousness up and our biological vessels are a kind of consciousness "magnet." So we all have a sliver of God's consciousness within ourselves. So what's wrong with that?

stillakid
05-01-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

I would recommend a Christian site where you could post and find all people to agree with you, if that's what you are looking for. JesusFreak's post was likely intended to reach out to non-believers. He wanted to spread the word of God. Well he went looking for non-believers. Did he not believe he'd find any?

I differ a little. I think, but don't know, that people who drop Scripture bombs like that are looking first for others who believe the same in order to prop up and verify their own "faith" which teeters on the brink with every legitimate question. The other purpose is to attract those who are vulnerable and need some kind of crutch to help them through a personal trial that may be affecting them at that very moment.

Hey, I'm willing at any moment to become a true believer in everything the literalists say, however it will take more than Bible quotes to get me to do it. TELL ME PRECISELY why you KNOW that it is literally true and if the answer is credible and accurate then we'll talk. Until then, it's just rhetoric.


Originally posted by Tycho

I'll have to try even harder to be respectful though. I am not trying to make jokes at the expense of the believers here. I really am getting to know and like Dryantra, and I was (and hope) that I have already been message board pals with BigBarada (who I agree with on a lot of things Star Wars and always enjoy talking to).

I'm with you here too. There's that whole Midichlorian thing ;) that we disagree on, but I'm just trying to find out some answers to some very real questions that I have. But it's been weeks and a gazillion posts and no one has even come close to explaining why or how they KNOW that any of this is true. Lot's o' belief, not a lot of knowing. Maybe it is an impasse, Dryanta. I want to know, you guys don't have an acceptable answer except "emotion" tells you so.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 02:05 PM
Oh - it is my fantasy to acquire enough power to replace God.

And I might make this world a better place if I did!

But I've got a lifetime's worth of learning (and then some) to do before I'm ready to take on all of that. - But I'm further ahead than average for my age.

But that's what the religious are saying in their own way too: God put us here to learn lessons from our hardships and trials.

Hopefully that means that we all have to go through ordeals that we learn to grow up from -and even if there isn't a God or an Afterlife.

The religious are saying we are learning to be more like Him.

The non-believers are saying that the true path to wisdom is to call into question all that we do not know - then seek knowledge.

It's simple: for us, belief is not enough.

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 02:28 PM
Stillakid,
I am glad you came through allright in college. But just because a person is not Christian does not mean God doesnt love them. You say you made it through your illness in college without praying or acknowledging God. Like I said before, I am glad you are OK. But that doesnt mean God wasnt with you and wasnt helping you. When I get into my car to drive somewhere I dont usually pray before leaving, but I know God is protecting me because I am His child. You may not acknowledge God, but He is still there with you.

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 02:41 PM
Sorry stillakid and others if this gets confusing.I really do need to get this quote thing figured out.Make you guys lives alot easier.
any way I'll try to be clear here.
as far as your question about tossing out half of it.Are you reading at all what I've said? I already responded to this with Tycho.You want the deal from the biblical POV read the book of Romans.Please don't jump to conclussions.I have addressed the idea that Christians throwing out the old testament.As far as if wether or not Jesusfreak should be expecting a plague of some kind soon?Beats me,Did he add or take away?If you're refering to his
"throwing out half of the book",again read the book of Romans before you jump to any conclussions.If you are refering to him not knowing something,that's not the same and you know it.
as far as your question about if I've read every word in the Bible the answer is no.So I guess I'm not qualified to answer anything anymore right.O.K.you're a anthropologist,astro phycisist,biologist,and all around genius?If not,I'll make a deal with you.You don't comment about anything you're not an undisputed expert on and I won't either.

As far as where I burn my bulls.I answered that question in this post,I am a christian not a jew,I choose not to try and even attempt keeping the Levitic law,were animals were used in proxy for me.I choose the perfect sacrifice of Christ instead.Read the book of Romans and you'll understand Christianity better than you do.
No interpretation needed.That is excactly what the bible has to say about slavery.I held absolutely nothing back.I suggest reading it for yourself.
I am not convoluting anything intentionally.So where in the bible does it say you can't ask her?If she says she is then back off.If not then neither of you is to deny the other.Clear enough.And believe it or not I don't want to argue anything?Do you?and for the record that one was facetous.There is nothing to frightening about what you've said.Why would it be?In the words of Padme" "you assume to much"
The question about canadians was answered in the whole slavery response from before.So I'llll be clear for the record.If you choose to place yourself under Levitic law (again READ ROMANS)than as long as he was not kidnapped the answer is yes,you can own a candian.And the shellfish question was not forgotten but addressed.Not "conviently or otherwise.As far as read lobster(again read Romans)
Sooo as a what? Refer back to my question to you before,ARE you reading my posts at all?I am now nor have I ever been a Catholic.Practicing or otherwise.I have also recently told you all I haven't stepped foot in a church in over two years and went VERY infrequently before that.So the most part of the rest of the question is mute.I already am aware of the definition of literal thanks.

I'll skip the next two because they aren't directed at me,
The hair cut issue.No interpretation needed.Have you read the verse? Please do.So Gods word doesn't deal with any specific era or society?Wrong it deals with them all at all times.So again read Romans to get a clue about the difference between the old and New testaments.No pickle at all.Please read it .I'm not trying to skirt the issue at all on the football thing.Again if you put yourself under Levitcal law you should not be touching Pig,pork,or dead pigs at all.When was the last time they made a football out of anything from a pig?I was trying to add a little levity to the thing sorry.Again read Romans.

And I still say sin is sin.Period.But there are different earthly consequences for them.Read it please.
I didn't avoid the question .He was to be stoned for the Blasphmy.Don't like that's O.K. I didn't write.

impossible.sounds pretty definitive to me.For some one who doesn't know anything for sure you sure do come across like you know alot.My mind is made up thanks.Not my fault you have a tendancy to make arguemnet from things you don't know about.
I did answer why.I don't believe I'm punishing myself at all.So it's hard to answer an incorrect assumption on your part.your comments about God loathing to use a figure of speech in the bible makes no sense to me.Jesus was speaking to linear people with a real society and real figures of speech.So according to your logic about it definitive,The Romans,Egypt,Caeser,Money,clothing,riding a donkey or any number of things mentioned that were specific to the time they were written should be excluded.Better scrap a lot of you text books then because they're full of them too.The whole literal thing you're presenting is really a attempt at a semantics debate hich I for one will not take.I can hear it now,"see see he hasn't got leg to stand on"You are right I don't with you.because you are not listening.The last paragraph of your post is true,but comeing again from some one doesn't know anything that sure does sound like you do.Enough so you can tell me what I can and can't know.
And I hope and doubt this post clears up the idea about my beiefs being"all across tth board"

stillakid
05-01-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid,
I am glad you came through allright in college. But just because a person is not Christian does not mean God doesnt love them. You say you made it through your illness in college without praying or acknowledging God. Like I said before, I am glad you are OK. But that doesnt mean God wasnt with you and wasnt helping you. When I get into my car to drive somewhere I dont usually pray before leaving, but I know God is protecting me because I am His child. You may not acknowledge God, but He is still there with you.

How do you know that? Why are you guys loath to answer that question? You don't KNOW that He was there just as much as I know that he wasn't.

And I'm sorry that you feel I'm being obnoxious. I guess when the questions get too difficult to answer, it can seem that way. I've tried to be as logical and accomodating as possible, however I'm not going to drink the Kool-Aid for anybody if all they can offer up are definitive statements like


Originally posted by JangoFett96
You may not acknowledge God, but He is still there with you.

You DON"T know that. Honestly, you don't. And if this seems a bit obnoxious, I understand, but if you really think that you do know this, then you really are deluding yourself. You can BELIEVE it, but you can't KNOW it*.

*at this time. (How's that for an asterisk?)


So, you can have your prayer meeting, call us names, mock us for not buying the goods without checking them out first, but in the end, all I'm looking for are solid answers, not mushy talk-show cry-fests about the trials and tribulations of life. The onus is on you to prove your assertions, yet you and others consistently refuse to do so. Most likely because you can't.

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 02:51 PM
Now wait just a minute. I never said in that post that you were obnoxious. And I never said we get in our "prayer groups" and mock others. You are putting words into my mouth.
Why are you getting so defensive? I havent mocked you or insulted you in any way. You believe the way you believe, and I believe the way I believe. You asked a question and I was honest and answered it the best that I could. If these answers arent good enough, then I am sorry. I can only do my best, nothing more.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 02:55 PM
Everyone just ignores me....an my Reptile Religion was so creative.... :cry: Whahaaaaa!

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Sorry stillakid and others if this gets confusing.I really do need to get this quote thing figured out.Make you guys lives alot easier.
any way I'll try to be clear here.
as far as your question about tossing out half of it.Are you reading at all what I've said? I already responded to this with Tycho.You want the deal from the biblical POV read the book of Romans.Please don't jump to conclussions.I have addressed the idea that Christians throwing out the old testament.As far as if wether or not Jesusfreak should be expecting a plague of some kind soon?Beats me,Did he add or take away?If you're refering to his
"throwing out half of the book",again read the book of Romans before you jump to any conclussions.If you are refering to him not knowing something,that's not the same and you know it.
as far as your question about if I've read every word in the Bible the answer is no.So I guess I'm not qualified to answer anything anymore right.O.K.you're a anthropologist,astro phycisist,biologist,and all around genius?If not,I'll make a deal with you.You don't comment about anything you're not an undisputed expert on and I won't either.

As far as where I burn my bulls.I answered that question in this post,I am a christian not a jew,I choose not to try and even attempt keeping the Levitic law,were animals were used in proxy for me.I choose the perfect sacrifice of Christ instead.Read the book of Romans and you'll understand Christianity better than you do.
No interpretation needed.That is excactly what the bible has to say about slavery.I held absolutely nothing back.I suggest reading it for yourself.
I am not convoluting anything intentionally.So where in the bible does it say you can't ask her?If she says she is then back off.If not then neither of you is to deny the other.Clear enough.And believe it or not I don't want to argue anything?Do you?and for the record that one was facetous.There is nothing to frightening about what you've said.Why would it be?In the words of Padme" "you assume to much"
The question about canadians was answered in the whole slavery response from before.So I'llll be clear for the record.If you choose to place yourself under Levitic law (again READ ROMANS)than as long as he was not kidnapped the answer is yes,you can own a candian.And the shellfish question was not forgotten but addressed.Not "conviently or otherwise.As far as read lobster(again read Romans)
Sooo as a what? Refer back to my question to you before,ARE you reading my posts at all?I am now nor have I ever been a Catholic.Practicing or otherwise.I have also recently told you all I haven't stepped foot in a church in over two years and went VERY infrequently before that.So the most part of the rest of the question is mute.I already am aware of the definition of literal thanks.

I'll skip the next two because they aren't directed at me,
The hair cut issue.No interpretation needed.Have you read the verse? Please do.So Gods word doesn't deal with any specific era or society?Wrong it deals with them all at all times.So again read Romans to get a clue about the difference between the old and New testaments.No pickle at all.Please read it .I'm not trying to skirt the issue at all on the football thing.Again if you put yourself under Levitcal law you should not be touching Pig,pork,or dead pigs at all.When was the last time they made a football out of anything from a pig?I was trying to add a little levity to the thing sorry.Again read Romans.

And I still say sin is sin.Period.But there are different earthly consequences for them.Read it please.
I didn't avoid the question .He was to be stoned for the Blasphmy.Don't like that's O.K. I didn't write.

impossible.sounds pretty definitive to me.For some one who doesn't know anything for sure you sure do come across like you know alot.My mind is made up thanks.Not my fault you have a tendancy to make arguemnet from things you don't know about.
I did answer why.I don't believe I'm punishing myself at all.So it's hard to answer an incorrect assumption on your part.your comments about God loathing to use a figure of speech in the bible makes no sense to me.Jesus was speaking to linear people with a real society and real figures of speech.So according to your logic about it definitive,The Romans,Egypt,Caeser,Money,clothing,riding a donkey or any number of things mentioned that were specific to the time they were written should be excluded.Better scrap a lot of you text books then because they're full of them too.The whole literal thing you're presenting is really a attempt at a semantics debate hich I for one will not take.I can hear it now,"see see he hasn't got leg to stand on"You are right I don't with you.because you are not listening.The last paragraph of your post is true,but comeing again from some one doesn't know anything that sure does sound like you do.Enough so you can tell me what I can and can't know.
And I hope and doubt this post clears up the idea about my beiefs being"all across tth board"

Not angry yet? Huh? :) Yes, I have read everything you've written and my questions remain as stated. No, I don't know everything nor have ever claimed to have absolute knowledge unlike the literalists who have declared Divine Inspiration as their guide. That's been my entire point here. I've continually punched holes in your theory. I punch holes in the "scientific" theories as well. You try to plug up your holes. Science attempts to plug theirs, except that the scientific process itself recognizes the necessity for continual questioning whereas you do not, regardless of a lack of full understanding of your own theory. You accept without question or full knowledge of that which you believe. I do not. Does that mean I know everything? Absolutely not. Have I claimed to? Absolutely not. I have questioned both sides of the argument and will continue to. I refuse to blindly accept anyone's assertions about anything based purely on the strength of their convictions, especially when it has to do with something so important as the nature of the Universe and the questions that come with it.

Following the book of Romans may make you a really great guy to spend life with, but it doesn't prove that God wrote it or that he exists at all. That's the question that I want an answer to! What makes any of you think you actually know that He exists (definitively!). Hey, I want to believe it as much as the next guy (unless he's Tycho ;) ), but I believe that my own BELIEF will be that much stronger if and only if someone, maybe even God Himself, "reveals" the undeniable proof that I should.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Now wait just a minute. I never said in that post that you were obnoxious. And I never said we get in our "prayer groups" and mock others. You are putting words into my mouth.
Why are you getting so defensive? I havent mocked you or insulted you in any way. You believe the way you believe, and I believe the way I believe. You asked a question and I was honest and answered it the best that I could. If these answers arent good enough, then I am sorry. I can only do my best, nothing more.


Originally posted by JangoFett96
Tycho is just being obnoxious. I am just ignoring him anyway.
I have tried to answer Stillakid's questions the best I can, yet he is acting the same way.
I am not shocked though. We stand firm on our beliefs and I am very proud to be a part of this group.
Thanks everyone!!

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Everyone just ignores me....an my Reptile Religion was so creative.... :cry: Whahaaaaa!

As I was reading your idea, I recalled a TV movie from my youth. I think that it was called the Fifth Wave or something like that. Maybe it was just The Wave. Essentially, it was about a group of kids in a High School somewhere that formed a group (with obvious references to nazi-like tendencies) that gathered followers in quite a frightening way. It isn't difficult to "invent" a truth and then convince others to "follow" you. The show was quite well done, and though fiction in and of itself, illustrated the mechanics of how someone can go about the process of deluding so many people so quickly. It's quite frightening really, just how impressionable we humans can be in the right circumstances. History itself has shown time and time again that it is very true what just one individual can accomplish, good or bad.

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 03:15 PM
You know what, youre right about it all.
Obviously you think your way is right, so I guess there is no point to the discussion at all.
And I havent mocked you, although some of your posts have come across as being obnoxious.
Im through with it.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
You know what, youre right about it all.
Obviously you think your way is right, so I guess there is no point to the discussion at all.
And I havent mocked you, although some of your posts have come across as being obnoxious.
Im through with it.

I caught you in a lie and now you're mad about it. And moreso, you're running away because there's no where left to go...no way to prove anything you've stated. And that's entirely my point. Thank you. See ya 'round.;)

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 03:18 PM
I never mocked you. Thats not a lie. And I am not mad about that.
But you obviously think your opinion is above ours, so there is no point to the argument.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
I never mocked you. Thats not a lie. And I am not mad about that.
But you obviously think your opinion is above ours, so there is no point to the argument.

See, therein lies the disagreement. Mine isn't an opinion. It's a fact. No one KNOWS if God's existence is actual. That's not an opinion at all, it's a fact. Billions of people have BELIEVED in God. That also is a fact. You claim to KNOW that God is real and use ancillary items like the Bible and personal tragedy to "prove" it. That is an opinion.

Y'all have been looking at this as an us against them argument, whereas this entire time, I'm just the referee trying to get you to offer a shred of "proof" regarding your convictions. You either refuse to do so, or simply can't because none exists. I've offered the opportunity and continue to offer the opportunity for you to produce some evidence. I have not once said that the evidence doesn't definitively exist. The door is still open for you to prove your case. That's your choice. I want you to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt. So do it already.

Jason B
05-01-2002, 03:35 PM
one of my firends theory on life is "Prove It." the fact is, that you cant prove anything. Prove that I'm in Maine. Prove that Human's actually landed on the moon. Prove that Force=Mass times Acceleration. you can't. the fact is, noone can prove anything, so just go with it. I believe in God. you do not.







ok


WoW. personally, i think you are trying to eother turn this thread into an arguement, or you are trying to get it closed. you said to Dryanta:

Not angry yet? Huh?

please just stop antagonizing or go away. I hate to be this way, but jeez.

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 03:36 PM
But you see, I have told you WHY I believe. You asked me why I believe. I told you. I can only give you my personal reasons and beliefs. When Jesus said he was the only way into Heaven and salvation in The Bible, I believe it. That is my faith. He is not standing here in front of me telling me what to type. That is why it is faith.
You know I cant give you some type of concrete evidence, other than what I have told you. And you are using that to your advantage. But there is no need to run this thing into the ground.
If you want some kind of picture or artifact I cant give you that. I can only give you what I know and what I believe. That is why I feel the discussion cannot go any further.

Jason B
05-01-2002, 03:42 PM
I can't really think of much to say, so I'll relate to something that happened today.
there's a gay kid at school. I hate him. i have absolutley nothing sgainst gay's. nothing at all. let me stress that. I HAVE NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST GAY'S. I hate him because he is loud, annoying, and obnoxious all the time. is that because he's gay, or because he's a loud, annoying, obnoxious person? who knows? just a little OT, but you have to know that before i say anything else. anyway, we're sitting in the computer lab having a good LAN game of Soldier of Fortune DM, and he is sitting next to me typing out a report on gayness in society, and he just announces to anyone and everyone in the lab that their definition of f****t is wrong. he says that it doesnt mean a bundle of sticks. he claims that it started way back when they were still burning witches. they used bundles of sticks, but when they ran out of them, they found all of the gay's in the community, and used them as "kindling". this is is exact quote. Kindling. HuH. I broke out laughing. I couldn't help it. he didnt notice, because we were all laughing when we killed each outer, or whatever. I was going to tell him that he was being lied to, but it didnt help. this is my point: People are being lied to all of the time, and they take it and believe it. this is sickening to me. they hear something, and they take it, and go with it. its pretty sad.
Stillakid, don'teven try to turn that last statement around on me. I know exactly what you are going to say, but don't do it.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Jason B
I can't really think of much to say, so I'll relate to something that happened today.
there's a gay kid at school. I hate him. i have absolutley nothing sgainst gay's. nothing at all. let me stress that. I HAVE NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST GAY'S. I hate him because he is loud, annoying, and obnoxious all the time. is that because he's gay, or because he's a loud, annoying, obnoxious person? who knows? just a little OT, but you have to know that before i say anything else. anyway, we're sitting in the computer lab having a good LAN game of Soldier of Fortune DM, and he is sitting next to me typing out a report on gayness in society, and he just announces to anyone and everyone in the lab that their definition of f****t is wrong. he says that it doesnt mean a bundle of sticks. he claims that it started way back when they were still burning witches. they used bundles of sticks, but when they ran out of them, they found all of the gay's in the community, and used them as "kindling". this is is exact quote. Kindling. HuH. I broke out laughing. I couldn't help it. he didnt notice, because we were all laughing when we killed each outer, or whatever. I was going to tell him that he was being lied to, but it didnt help. this is my point: People are being lied to all of the time, and they take it and believe it. this is sickening to me. they hear something, and they take it, and go with it. its pretty sad.
Stillakid, don'teven try to turn that last statement around on me. I know exactly what you are going to say, but don't do it.

I don't need to say it, you did it just fine. ;)

Unfortunately I couldn't quite follow the entire story because of the auto-blocking feature on the posts, that and some mis-spellings and grammatical errors. So, while your example escapes me, I have to agree with your conclusion. Thanks!

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
But you see, I have told you WHY I believe. You asked me why I believe. I told you. I can only give you my personal reasons and beliefs. When Jesus said he was the only way into Heaven and salvation in The Bible, I believe it. That is my faith. He is not standing here in front of me telling me what to type. That is why it is faith.
You know I cant give you some type of concrete evidence, other than what I have told you. And you are using that to your advantage. But there is no need to run this thing into the ground.
If you want some kind of picture or artifact I cant give you that. I can only give you what I know and what I believe. That is why I feel the discussion cannot go any further.


That's! an answer I can respect. Thank you. Why do I accept this answer suddenly when none of the others would do? You're not relying on "biblical" quotes to back up your convictions in the above statement as JesusFreak chose to start this out by doing. Key words I like hearing: personal, beliefs, faith. While others have claimed ultimate knowledge that is unknowable and unprovable, as you point out above, you see the impasse for what it is.

There's no knowledge, only belief. Faith and Hope in something else greater than ourselves, but only that. I've always wanted to see a UFO. A flying saucer or something. An alien being even. I hope that they exist, but I don't know if they do. Until that time when one does land in my backyard, I'll go on hoping and believing that it could be true.

The same goes for God. Aliens probably have reason to hide in the shadows (lest we gun them down). But GOD, being the almighty powerful supernatural being that he is given credit for being, should have no qualms about appearing before any of us. Why won't He land in my backyard and prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that I should take every single word of the Bible literally, Genesis through Revelation. When He tells me to ignore the Mormons because they are deluding themselves, I'll believe it definitively. When He tells me that Noah stuffed all the species into a small boat I'll believe it. But He hasn't told anyone for certain. Why not? Why not? Is He really there at all?

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 04:08 PM
Well I am glad you accept my answer, but I have been trying to say that the past few posts. That is why faith is what it is you know. Like I said before, my personal experiences and beliefs can be my best testimony. This isnt a federal case in a court of law that has to have evidence and witnesses, etc. This is a belief, a religion, a faith. And that faith states that through Jesus I am saved. Plain and simple.
But that is why this forum is great. You and I can come on here and discuss our beliefs and opinions even though they may be different (SW related or not) and I am glad it hasnt gotten too out of hand. Ok I am tired now. Back to SW for a while.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Jason B
one of my firends theory on life is "Prove It." the fact is, that you cant prove anything. Prove that I'm in Maine. Prove that Human's actually landed on the moon. Prove that Force=Mass times Acceleration. you can't. the fact is, noone can prove anything, so just go with it. I believe in God. you do not.







ok


WoW. personally, i think you are trying to eother turn this thread into an arguement, or you are trying to get it closed. you said to Dryanta:

Not angry yet? Huh?

please just stop antagonizing or go away. I hate to be this way, but jeez.

Um, no, I have not antagonized with deliberate malice at any point here. My post was in response to the "mood" I felt from his style of writing at that point. If you find my questions to be too difficult to deal with and "antagonizing" then that is something you'll have to work through. I'm simply putting forth reasonable queries with logical responses in the most objective manner possible. While doing so, I've heard repeated insistence that no one is getting angry or upset at all. However, Dryanta's last post really sounded a bit like his feathers were ruffled by my previous reply, though that wasn't my intention at all. I've just been looking for answers from the experts on faith here. If that is antagonistic then perhaps there is a general problem with being inquisitive about the entire concept in the first place.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Well I am glad you accept my answer, but I have been trying to say that the past few posts. That is why faith is what it is you know. Like I said before, my personal experiences and beliefs can be my best testimony. This isnt a federal case in a court of law that has to have evidence and witnesses, etc. This is a belief, a religion, a faith. And that faith states that through Jesus I am saved. Plain and simple.
But that is why this forum is great. You and I can come on here and discuss our beliefs and opinions even though they may be different (SW related or not) and I am glad it hasnt gotten too out of hand. Ok I am tired now. Back to SW for a while.


I do have a ton of figures that I haven't opened yet. Been too busy! ;) Thanks!

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 04:17 PM
So have you found a Dooku yet?

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
So have you found a Dooku yet?

I cheat. I signed up with the One of Every Figure Club at www.kebcotoys.com. It costs $7.61 per figure at the moment, which is more than retail, I know, but I just don't have the time or energy to drive 50 plus miles several times a week to complete my collection. I do hit the stores on occasion, primarily for army builders, ships, and playsets, but the pressure is off to try to find those "ellusive" figures. It just got too frustrating, trying to beat out the 8 am'ers, the scalpers, and the backroom dealers.

So, yes! I do have Dooka. But he's still trapped inside the bubble. I'm having flashbacks of Toy Story 2 right now. :crazed:

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 04:28 PM
I was lucky enough to get 3 Dooku's. He was easy to find here in my area.

Tycho
05-01-2002, 04:29 PM
JangoFett,

I want to keep it clear that we're still friends in our Mouse Droid Sniffers Society. Since around that time that it struck me funny that people sniff their figures and I posted that, a lot of things have struck me funny. Guess I am starting to relax in prep for my trip to Indianapolis.

(Yes, if the plane starts going down I will pray to God that I don't die before I see Episode III, but I will be praying "God if you exist, please hear me and don't let me die before I see the completion of the Star Wars trilogy!" You see, I'll do that on my way to the cockpit to make sure my pilot's still OK and trying to regain control of the plane - but I might be crushed into an overhead cargo container - so praying might be all I can do. It's the last possibility. Or I suppose I could pray I am reincarnated with something made out of jet fuel...:rolleyes:

But I will do all I can to control my own fate and create my own destiny.

But as to being obnoxious, why are my mock religions obnoxious and a thread about people sniffing mouse droids not?

The forums were about people seriously interested in collecting. They wanted to get R4M9 as a valued goal for their collection, not so they could shove his accessory up their nose. (though that's a valid reason!) So why wasn't my thread obnoxious there?

OK - so it wasn't in an allready on-going discussion. Good point. But my fake religions are making a point in this discussion. People are getting way too serious and defensive here, and this subject matter is inflammatory because it affects their lifestyles, or how those lifestyles are judged by themselves, and others, and God (?). I'm making a point with humor, trying to be nice that way, and creative.

I am not a biologist, physicist, theologian, Christian, Jew, pagan, or Lizard Priest. (well I could be the first and last of the final one). So I'm making a practical point with a practical example. People believe what they want to believe.

We have a whole contingeant of people here who believe sniffing their newest action figures is a great way to take pleasure in collecting them. We've met some people who really disagree with that.

I really disagree that the Bible is a literal accounting of history and it directly explains a creator God's will. While elements of it might be true, we don't have any way of knowing (like Stillakid is saying) and with it open to speculation that it was created just like any of the new religions I'm churning out, these can be as far-out as I want to make them, since I think some of that description applies to the Biblical stories as well.

No one's commented on my alienation I've felt because I wasn't raised in a dominant faith in my community like all my friends were. And how that had an effect shaping what I've come to believe.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
JangoFett,


No one's commented on my alienation I've felt because I wasn't raised in a dominant faith in my community like all my friends were. And how that had an effect shaping what I've come to believe.

You know, Tycho, I've been thinking, could you tell us about the alienation you've felt because you weren't raised in a dominant faith in your community like all of your friends were? And could you elaborate and tell us how that had an effect shaping what you've come to believe? :)

JetsAndHeels
05-01-2002, 04:38 PM
Tycho,
Yes we are still friends. We have shared alot of laughs here on the forums and I have enjoyed discussing topics with you.
As far as the mouse droid thread being obnoxious, it was humorous and not offensive. I enjoyed it because it was funny and I could relate because I sniff my toys just like you do.
But with the religion issue, you began to make light of what we were discussing, and even though it was indirect, it was insulting. I personally didnt take it to heart as much as others may have, but still it was a little too much.
But lets put that all behind us. Stillakid and I have agreed that different people believe different things. There isnt always evidence to support our faith, but we choose our own beliefs.
I hope I didnt offend you at all Tycho. Like I said we are friends, and hopefully not just in the mouse sniffers club.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Tycho,
Yes we are still friends. We have shared alot of laughs here on the forums and I have enjoyed discussing topics with you.
As far as the mouse droid thread being obnoxious, it was humorous and not offensive. I enjoyed it because it was funny and I could relate because I sniff my toys just like you do.
But with the religion issue, you began to make light of what we were discussing, and even though it was indirect, it was insulting. I personally didnt take it to heart as much as others may have, but still it was a little too much.
But lets put that all behind us. Stillakid and I have agreed that different people believe different things. There isnt always evidence to support our faith, but we choose our own beliefs.
I hope I didnt offend you at all Tycho. Like I said we are friends, and hopefully not just in the mouse sniffers club.

Jango, you seem like an understanding fellow. Maybe you can answer this. Maybe not. I understand that it's pure conjecture on your part, so no problem if you can't answer it. But, everyone else has appeared to have run off into the solitude of the Christian Collector's Club. Presumably a "safe" environment from someone like me who just wants some answers.

So here's the question. Why is is so difficult for a "devout" Christian, as so many here claim to be, to admit that what they believe isn't fact? To admit that it is indeed just a belief? Is it symantics? Is there a fundamental misunderstanding of the terminolgy? I don't get it?

Now, I will bust myself and admit that in a previous thread somewhere, I said the words "What's the point in believing something if you don't think that it's true?" Something to that effect. I was wrong. What I should have said was, "What's the point in believing something if you don't believe that it's true?" So, while I understand the need to "believe" in something, why should that disqualify a persons mind from at least considering the possiblity that it isn't true.

You see what I'm getting at? It seems so close-minded to me. It is possible to believe what you want to believe, but what is so wrong about leaving yourself open to the possiblity that it isn't right afterall? Enter the theories about self-esteem and such etc etc for if the foundation of your life is wrong etc etc.

Anyway. Just curious. It's not so much a religious question as it is a psychological one. Any insights? Thank you.

SithDroid
05-01-2002, 05:04 PM
2,000 years ago they didn't have the copyright laws that we now have in today's society, so literally anyone could have added to, changed, re-wrote, or done whatever to the Bible and no one would have known. :D

Also what if say tomorrow Aliens landed all over the planet and we could actually physically see them and touch then for that matter. Does that mean that "God" chose us as the only pure race in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Would these Aliens need to conform to our belief in "Christianity" or would they forever be doomed due to either a) their own personal beliefs or b) that they are not of our race. Also what would the "Bible" say of these Aliens, that they are to be damned because they do not believe in "God." And who's to say that Jesus wasn't an alien with super powers that we as humans are not capable of understanding due to our primitive culture. Perhaps these Aliens have a better grasp of the Universe and knowledge of "The Creator" then we do. How are we to disprove them, if indeed they believe in one thing and we do not. Either way no one is going to be able to sway one or the other to change their view one way or the other. I pose this as a serious question because I DO believe that there is other inteligent life living on other planets throughout the universe. The Universe is so large that it would be foolish and ignorant of us to beleive that we are the ONLY planet that can sustain life. I can't honestly wait for the day when Aliens do land on this planet. I would like to know what religious people would think of this. If "God" is the creator of us all then he certainly created these Aliens. Should he condemn them as well. Is God only just to our species. And also only to the "true" believers of "Christianity."

I'm sure I won't get any serious answer here, but it is a question that more than likely could happen.

stillakid - Keep it coming. I agree, all that I am asking for is physical proof that the Bible was indeed written by God. Perhaps that is why he hasn't showed up nowadays because someone would more than likely catch him on video or take a picture of him and ask him to come on some talk show, I can speculate can't I? I know that you are going to say that there is no "physical" proof that Aliens exist, but I ask the question only as a what if? in case it actually does happen. What would your religion to say about it?

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 05:08 PM
Sorry guys I stepped away to print off the last few pages.
No stillakid I'm not angry.
Want proof of that.have to take my word for it sorry.But there is one who could tell you first hand what me being angry is. Jason b is my nephew.He's known me his whole life.That's why he said please don't antagonize.He knows when I'm angry or not and I appreciate his concern.I'm fine zipperneck.Go do your home work.
Any way I still haven't forgotten you Tycho.
I still don't think you have been listening stillakid.You still stand by that statement?I have never once any where here said I was catholic.Prove it.So I'm sorry but you could not have reading very closely.
Reading the book of Romans doesn't make you a great guy.It explains the relationship between The Old and New testament and the Law and Grace.
So if you don't want anything from the bible then Why did you post the letter quoting it in the first place?
You want real honest physical proof.That's your right to ask for it.
what is your opinion on Noah's ark being on Mt.Ararat in Turkey/Satelite photos show it clearly.It's been broken in half and the lower(in altitude) section is buried in ice.Thermo imageing still shows it.
See this is why I've tried to avoid this.I've had this conversation before the exact conversation.He says "how do you know it's really Noah's ark?" "The measurements are the same,and it is made of Gopher wood.There have been samples analized."(that's where my comment earlier about it now being exstinct came from)
" yeah well,why isn't common knowledge? How come big pieces haven't been brought down?" "The government of Turkey won't allow it.They consider it a sacred spot and won't allow any one near it.Haven't in very long time, years.Once it was proven to be there"
There see!Religion getting in the way of science."
I've actually had that conversation.I've mentioned that the bible expressly says that the earth was round and was "suspended' in space.The dead sea scrolls prove that these are the oldest texts saying this.Long before anybody else any where had a clue.The response,Yeah well I think they're fakes.Planted by religious fanatics to prove them selves.
I've spoken to people about the Roman documentation proving a galiean was crucified on that Friday before pass over for "insurection" and he was hung between two thieves.
There are alos Roman documents that tell of Herord and Pontius Pilot being in Isreal and in charge at the time.Also the command from Herod to kill all the Baby boys in the area of Bethlehem under the age of two.There is also writings and charts from either the incas or myans that record the six hours of darkness that fell on the earth the day of the crucifixtion.There calender is really easy to follow back to exact dates in time.If you know how anyway.
The day the Earth stopped spining has also been proven by astronmers to have happened.the Earth stopped spinning for a day.The atomic clocks also show this some how.
So here we go,I've used science again to prove my own points right?But is that the kinds of things you've wanted?Or will you say that the scince doesn't prove the Bible but the Bible stories just incorporate these events into them to add drama and credibility.Heard that before too.Maybe i have unfarly strapped you with someone elses baggage,and if so I am sorry.But I have gone the "proof" route so many times that I guess i'm some what predudiced against it.Nothing you ever say is good enough.And even if God walked up and slapped them right in the head they wouldn't believe it.
So Think what you want but I do know he's real and his word is real.Sorry I just do.Just like you know no body knows right?It is faith and true and real and those things can be known.if you don't know it does it make it not true?Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt anything at all.You've already said you can't and neither can I.Have not held the dead sea scolls,I haven't climbed Ararat to check out the remnants of the Ark.So can I prove anything.Nope.Don't need to really.Do you need to prove anything to me?Nope.If you find inconsistancies in what I've said.I'm sorry I'm human.
Stillakid please do a real quest in your life.I don't believe you've read any of the Book you deem man made and illogical.Not exactly logical according to your own expectations of us.Read it and then pass judgement.I said repeatedly earlier that I would not comment on the Catholic faith because I didn't know enough about it.But I'm a practicing Catholic and you've read what I posted?You may have caught someone in a lie,and maybe I did too.Please post the research you claimed to have done about Noah's ark.Prove you did it.Prove that story happened.You will not afford me my word then I won't afford you yours.Post something that you have done,not some guys letter to Dr.Luara or your friends theory.Prove to me you've done what you say.Nothing mushy or teary eyed about that.So I have to say this,you have asked to have your questions answered and according to you we haven't in a satisfactory way.So I now ask the same of you and see if you do any better than we did.Prove you have any idea what this topic is about.Let's see the research that got you an A and put a Born agiain christian in their place.Sorry I really have had enough.
Tycho,Dar,ceasar,Insane jedigirl, all come here with real questions.You didn't from the start.Sorry opinion.And speaking of opinion.according to your repeated assertion that no one knows again how do you call anything a fact?

stillakid
05-01-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
stillakid - Keep it coming. I agree, all that I am asking for is physical proof that the Bible was indeed written by God. Perhaps that is why he hasn't showed up nowadays because someone would more than likely catch him on video or take a picture of him and ask him to come on some talk show, I can speculate can't I? I know that you are going to say that there is no "physical" proof that Aliens exist, but I ask the question only as a what if? in case it actually does happen. What would your religion to say about it?

I'm not going to say that there isn't proof of aliens or not. There just might be some hidden away on some secret government base somewhere. It's a different situation than the God question. We have people all over the world claiming that they've seen aliens and UFO's. They also claim that there are tangible artifacts left by them that prove their existence. If that is true, then those artifacts are being hidden away by humans who wish it to remain a secret.

The artifacts that have been offered up as proof of God are not hidden away. They are there for us to see and examine. Upon review of them, there does not seem to be any outward proof that they are of supernatural origin. Were these artifacts hidden away, we would have the same situation as with the alien's question.

As far as my own religion goes, I was brought up Roman Catholic. As evidenced by Vatican II, change in the Church is slow, but it is possible. So if a new prophet or a reincarnation of Jesus appeared tomorrow, like anyone else, I think that there would be general reluctance to believe it. Especially amongst the Literalist's in the crowd. The religion they've subscribed to seems to be more about creating a comfort zone for themselves than any true belief in what God actually is. So my guess as to their reaction and the reaction of the Church, I would have to say that they wouldn't want to believe it, lest it ruined the security blanket that they adhere to so deeply. All other people on the planet would most likely dismiss the "new guy" outright as being a kook.

If aliens landed tomorrow, well, that's a different story again. We could see that they were different (presumably) and see that they have cool spaceships (presumably). So there isn't so much a "faith" occurrence in this situation so much as a shock factor. You don't need faith if you can see it with your own eyes. As far as the "damnation" of the aliens thing, I personally don't subscribe to the idea that God hangs His minions out to dry just because the message of Jesus didn't get around to them in time. So I don't see it as an issue. I'm not sure how the Vatican would handle it, but I sense that they wouldn't be too concerned with pre-judging the creatures anyway. The Mormons would probably bicycle over to the ship first. :rolleyes:

Tycho
05-01-2002, 05:39 PM
Wow! There's a lot going on here. I've scanned a little of it since Stillakid asked me for clarification on the alienation issue I faced as a child.

I just cut and pasted from my earlier post, so here that is:

QUOTING THE GREAT ST. TYCHO ;) :

That I can first relate to being born "different" from everybody else on that ground. I was born into a Jewish family. Largely Jewish by direct descent, it is pretty well mixed religions in later generations (my parents' generation and my own, though both my parents were born into the Jewish faith).

But my father was a United States Navy Officer and that was first and foremost the influence in his life and "upbringing" he gave me. We lived in a southern California community almost all my life, that was largely full of all different kinds of Christian faiths. I have very few Jewish friends, or even acquaintences, but I was the only kid on the street who did not have Christmas lights on his house, and a tree in his window.

I grew up with Star Wars, remember. I got my action figures either earlier or later than all my friends, because Hannukah was on the Old Hebrew's lunar calendar, not the Roman one. So for that matter, I was always different than my friends - they were jealous of me when I had the toys early, or I did not share in the joy on Christmas morning when we (as SW Fans) celebrated our "real" faith. But when I was young I stayed awake all night wondering what was wrong with me? Why wasn't Santa bringing me the Millennium Falcon or a Death Star Playset? Could I see the new toys if I spotted him going down the neighbor's chimney?

So God must not love me equally, because everyone else seems to have the same - and it looked much more joyous and better to me.

They had family Christmas' and my father and mother were barely ever getting along well enough to have a holiday with the family, let alone the fact that my father had worked for the Naval Intelligence Service and then did jobs that kept him at high stress levels and often traveling. He did not adapt well to be suddenly thrust in and out of civilian life and the roles of being a husband and a parent. From a kid's perspective, all the Christian families on the street (my friends') were 'normal.' I saw tv commercials that showed me how their families went to Christmas sales at the mall, sat on Santa's lap, got their wish lists together, and lived happily ever after. As a kid you believe that stuff.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, it made be angry enough to start questioning everything in my pursuit of justice - which I'd define by letting me belong with the other kids. Letting me just be like everyone else. I wanted to fit in, but I really didn't. Tough luck Kid, eh? That's what they tell me (Jews and Christians alike). I'm a man without a people.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To other things I noted:

If they won't let you near the Ark - the Turkish Govt has got themselves a new social control device to make their people passive and pious. If it was real - heck they could really boon their tourist industry! Not to mention drive their scientific community, corner the market on improving carbon-14 dating, etc. Oh, and I'd point out that God would NOT consider Noah's Ark a holy shrine. He'd probably look at it and think "That darn boat again?! If only I'd sunk it too, I wouldn't be responsible for that big mess down there!" LOL

My point is the Turkish Govt. made it some kind of holy shrine - not God - even if it is the real Noah's Ark (which I'm not buying for a minute without more evidence). You'd think God would like us to comb through it and prove what it is, how old it is, and where it came from. (I know, "but God wants us to have faith. Thanks Turkey. I almost forgot that.)

TO EVERYONE : no one here has offended me. Thanks though (Jango). Jason B. needs to clarify his statement about a moderator though. (He might have even meant Dar'Argol - I was never sure, but I was taking the riskier ground with my great experiments in sarcastic posting). Anyway it sounded like it was a little harsh, or otherwise that I could heed his advice and make some improvements to my own behavior in this thread here. First I need to get his advice though. Chime in Jason! It's ok. Welcome to the forums! You have a great, cool uncle I'm happy to be acquainted with!


6 hours of darkness? Hmmm. How long is a solar eclipse? That one is a good way to explain it. But in my religion from the lizards, that was Godzilla's shadow ;)


Sithdroid: if aliens of a different religion came here, Christians would say it is because God brought them to us so they could learn of the gift given to us by Jesus Christ. As these 4 armed peoples translate the bible, they will tell of how Jesus died on the cross Tic-Tac-Toe board where his (4) arms were nailed into place, and he gave his life four their sins, so they could inherit the earth on which to make a new life and start by making ammends (once they got rid of all the humans and their false religious symbols...) Religion is adapted to suit whoever is in power.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
You want real honest physical proof.That's your right to ask for it.
what is your opinion on Noah's ark being on Mt.Ararat in Turkey/Satelite photos show it clearly.It's been broken in half and the lower(in altitude) section is buried in ice.Thermo imageing still shows it.
See this is why I've tried to avoid this.I've had this conversation before the exact conversation.He says "how do you know it's really Noah's ark?" "The measurements are the same,and it is made of Gopher wood.There have been samples analized."(that's where my comment earlier about it now being exstinct came from)
" yeah well,why isn't common knowledge? How come big pieces haven't been brought down?" "The government of Turkey won't allow it.They consider it a sacred spot and won't allow any one near it.Haven't in very long time, years.Once it was proven to be there"

Yeah, I've seen that. I've also seen the blurry photos showing how Ms. So and So lost 200 lbs with Dexatrim.


The Earth stopped spinning for a day? I honestly haven't heard that one, but the ramifications are stupifying. If you believe that one, there is no point in continuing this whatsoever. The science you subscribe to is disturbing. But, to be fair, since I haven't heard that one before, I'll set about right away to find some good research about it.


I'm more than happy to offer my own research to you. :) Now I gotta go dig through all my sh*t. That was way back in High School. You'll be the second to know when I find it. But for somebody so eager to believe based on faith and faith alone, you don't seem quite yourself asking for proof. ;)

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 06:14 PM
Thanks Stillakid,
Sorry for goading you that way.It's just that I did ask for it awhile back and it hasn't been mentioned again.
Sorry sith doid,I keep missing you.I was writing again when you posted.
The copyright thing I think is meant to be funny,but I also gave my belief of that issue.If you'd like it again no problem.

Did you read my alien post awhile back?I know it was directed to Dar so I wasn't sure.SO before I start it's My opinion based on my faith in the Bible O.K.?Ican and will speculate on how religion would react.But that will be opinion based on nothing but me.O.K.? a little disclaimer there sorry.
In the thread before I mentioned bible references to aliens of some kind haveing already been here.Were they ETs or something else I don't know.One "race" definately was evil.One was definately good.Now from my POV if one or the other showed up I'd try to determine which one they were.lol
And the Bible and plan of salvation is ours,For man.So no they would not be affected by it in any way.Did God come down and Die there too?have to ask them if they show.I think I just answered the doomed thing but I 'll clarify as best I can.I believe that they would have to adhere to what ever plan God put before them.If he hadn't or they were Atheist?well then I'd have a problem.Honestly how could I not.I wouldn't consider them any different from a human trying to tell me different.That doesn't sound right but I'll let it stand.If they were to say there was another God all together,then the same would apply.I would try and determine the best I could wether it was really the same God or not.That's the best I can give you really.As Honestly as I can be.
And as a side note I would not be surprised at all if there were other inhabited planets out there.There is no challenge to my faith in that.see the post to Dar As far as how organized religion would react.I think some would absolutely freak and fall apart.others would smooze right up to try and keep their power base intact.IMO.Can't say for sure maybe we'll find out at some point.

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 06:36 PM
Hey tycho now on to you.thanks for the kind words.And for the record I still consider all here friends.I have a special fondness for everyone who has stayed here this long.Shows some effort and respect(except you tycho :) ) for the subject matter.Any way what can I say to your childhood.Not much I'm afraid because I can't really relate.I was alienated due to my own personal choice.Not by the choice of others or difference in beliefs.
In all honesty I really can't relate to what that's like.
Now on to the serious subject of your political career!!!
Ahhh,the thing about the knives and the blood and sensory stuff and all,I'm no political stratagist but I wouldn't make that a plank in your policy platform ;)
In all seriousness I really do appreciate your brutal at times,honesty.You don't seem to be pulling any punches.
I think everybody has thoughts and urges along those lines.probably vary from person to person.
But at least you are aware of them enough to control them.And for the record again. I know you weren't condoning murder only useing it as illustration.
can I sit here and say that the sith or lizard religion wouldn't take right off?Nope I can't I wish I could but honestly can't.I know your point is made more towards the possibility that that principle applies to The beginings of Christianity.But guess what?O.K. you say it.
That's my beliefs.He's who he said He was and that's it.
But at the same time your points are well taken.And others as well for the most part.Some I just don't understand but hey I don't have to right?
So I'm trying to think of other things you brought up.And I can't so I'll open it up for some one else.

stillakid
05-01-2002, 06:38 PM
I was exhausted last night, but while flipping through the channels (caught the end of the LA Cincy game, exciting!), I happened upon a Discovery special or something about the pyramids and another site somewhere else. I wish I knew the title of it so I could see the whole thing, but some guy with his handy-dandy starmap computer program looked up the positions of constellations and found surprising parallels with some earthly structures. 10,500 years ago, the main chamber of one of the Giza pyramids looked directly at Orion's belt. This was significant because the pyramids are relatively the "same" size and in the same position as Orion's Belt. Could be a coincidence, however, at the same time, 10,500 years ago, there is another ancient series of structures (that I can't remember where or who built it) that are in the precise shape of the constellation Draco. At that precise time, Draco was hovering just on the horizon of that area, just as the constellation Orion was doing thousands of miles away. I wasn't awake to hear what the "conclusions" about it were, but I found it interesting nonetheless. Those kinds of occurrences aren't proof of anything for sure, but they do suggest a modest possiblity of some kind of "extraterrestrial" or "otherworldly" influence. On the other hand, maybe not. It would be one thing if these structures were relatively close together but their distances suggest that something else was going on. Interesting nonetheless.

vulcantouch
05-01-2002, 07:22 PM
1: "i know a lot about religious cults because i grew up in one. . . the Baptists. who basically believe that if you hold someone under water long enough, they'll eventually come around to your way of thinking" -comedian a. whitney brown :D

2: "save me, jeebus!" -homer simpson :D
vt

Dar' Argol
05-01-2002, 09:23 PM
Wow, I was only away for one day!!! I want to thank everyone here for such a good discussion. Also for pulling it back up when it was heading for the Closed Thread Danger zone. I have really enjoyed everyone various beliefs and opinions. Its been very refreshing. I am not angry at anyone and if I offened anyone, accept my appology. I don't think I have though.

Tycho, I love the lizard religion idea! LOL!! Can I be your prophet:D?

Not to open up another can of worms but, wasn't the Bible actualy, physically written by men?? I'm mean God himself didn't come down and write every word, he dictating it right?? Isn't there room for personal interpretation then?? Example:

George Lucas come to me(yeah right) and says he wants me to write the next SW movie. He tells me the story, in great detail and then tells me to go write a script. Now I do not have photographic memory, Heck, I can't remember what was posted on the previous page. So I go and write it, trying to recall everything George said. Now in doing so, I relize that some of his "vision" does not mesh right with the later movies, so I change some things. Who would know because I can say, "this is what George told me to write". So I change his "vision" here and there to mesh correctly, plus emphasizing a few area that I really liked. It gets made into a movie and everyone his happy b/c it "came" from GL and it was good. But no one knows that there was some areas that were not in the original vision. And your adverage Joe Shmoe cannot just go up to GL and ask him if its all correct. So everyone takes it as GL's own word.

Couldn't this have happened with the Bible. I am not saying it did. I am just posing a very real question.

Tycho's the Lizard King:D

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 10:04 PM
Thanks for that vulcantouch(I think);)
Curious did you read this whole thread?
O.K. I need to fill you in on somethings that I've come across tonight that I think you all should know.It's refering to the question I posed to Stillakid about the day the Planet stopped revolving.
Now I do remember hearing about it and some how the earths atomic clocks show it as well.But I can't find anything on the atomic clocks.But I did find a story plastered all over the inter net.
That has been declared a hoax.It's really easy to find any where.
It tells a story posted in a news paper in Indiana in 1969.It suposedly tells the story of one MR. Harold Hill president of curtis engine company in baltimore.
The story in a nut shell is they were running calculations for nasa and came up with a missing 23 hours 40 minutes in time space.
SO they're all like Huh? and a worker who had heard about Joshua 10 mentioned it.so they get a Bible and find that actually says "about a day"So where did the other 40 minutes go?another bible account in Hezikiah talks about the sun going backwards 10 degrees.There is the other twenty minutes right? suposedly yes.Here's the problem.It has been refuted by alot of other web sites.Almost as many as posted the story as fact.
So what do we do with that? This Mr.Harold Hill is dead now.And it really varies on where you go to what kind of information about this you get.All of the sites seem to have a bias one way or another.The people who say it's a new urban legend claim he later denied it.A couple quotes from Him(?) say he said that he never did and the suposed retraction was a lie.So If My reference was to me hearing that I'm sorry.I really can't be sure.I do remember something about the atomic clocks,but again I can't be sure if that was just another embelishment of the same story.
So the science part of my comment is in serious question by me and should be by you.I don't want anybody to think I'm hiding anything from this conversation so I felt I needed to post that.And also it fits in nicely with Tycho's ideas about how thing spread and grow,with a life of their own.That I don't dispute at all.

Now there were a couple of other things I found that are not related to the whole Hill story.
ovid the latin poet relates a story about a day that the sun stopped.He got it from the Phoenitions (Philistines)who were the other group of people involved in the bible account.The Chinese have documentation of the same event during the reign of Empoer Yao at the same time as Joshua(the main character in the account),Egyptions spoke of a "long day" ,Aztecs have the same story and on their calender says "seven Rabits" which again is the same year.The Indians,Buddhist,the incas,babylonians,persians.All the same story and time. The Native americans also told Sahagun the spanish savant (who came to North America a generation after Columbus of a day where the sun came up on the eastern horizon and stayed there for a whole day. This all in a book by Immanuel Veikovsky called worlds in collision.published in 1950 and published also in Harper's.Readers digest and Colliers were also running companion works about the same topics.I guess it was big deal in 1950. Gordon Atwater of the Hayden Planetarium(?) was a firm believer of what was in the book and wanted it taken up by the scientific community.I don't think it ever was.May have been but I can't say for sure.
Now Here's some other things for us to ponder(or maybe not
;) )Sir Edwin Ball the British astronomer,Prof.Pickering of Harvard observatory and Prof. Maunders of Greenwich,and Prof. Totten of yale have found a missing day.And they all trace it back to The time of Joshua.They disregarded calendar changes and only delt with a chronology based on solor motion.they went back to the earliest availible records and traced the calendar through time to Joshua.The day of Joshua's battle was on a tuesday.But when they computed Backwards from the present day to the time of Joshua then it was a Wednesday.The day of the month is the same just one day twice as long as it should be.
The first recorded soltice in ancient Egyption records show it on a Tuesday.But if we go back from the Last soltice it's a Wednesday.All of this has been corroborated by astronomical data by Charles A.L. Totten in a book called Joshua's long day and the Dial of Ahaz.1890.
Now in this book totten says that the physical explaination is that a intervening comet may have cut off actinic rays to the planet.Or a huge meteor hitting the plant.Going deep enough into the mantle to slow it down one revelution but not deep enough to effect the inner molten core which with it's continuing rotation would have gotten it spinning again.Apparently Newton showed how the planet could be suddenly slowed down and then start back up again.There were pictures printed in National geographic in October 1969 that show a large sink hole Between Hawaii and the Philippines.It has long fracture lines leading out to both continents."the effect of such a crash would be maximum there at the equator on slowing the earth and would result in huge tidal waves.This may help explain Dr. Norhtrup's studies on California's sand deposites."

From the T.W. Doane Bible mythes and their parallels in other religions
Immanuel Velikovsky worlds in colision
ibid p.10 and ibid p.76.

I don't expect it to answer anything for any one,because it doesn't address the origin of the Bible or faith or any proof of God.I just wanted to put this here for anyone who maybe interested.
Stillakid,I'm curious if any of your friends may be able to shine
some light or ideas on any of this. any way hope you enjoyed it.I'm a two finger typist and I didn't enjoy it at all:)

Dryanta
05-01-2002, 10:37 PM
Going to make me type again aren't you Dar? :)
It's good question but one that no one can provide proof either way.So we come to faith period.My POV is this.If God had human hands(and yes I don't think anybody disputes that ;)) write down an incredibly important message then he would have Himself made sure his own word weren't distorted.Faith period.It's mine and that's all the answer I can give.
If some one doesn't beieve it's devinely inspired you can do what ever you want to with it.Ignore,change,what ever and this has happened alot.Every one knows this.I've taken heat for being literalist and that's O.K. Why wouldn't I?It makes no sense to most people.But it does to me.
Anyway,I'm sorry if I really got you confused in that previous post.If you need me to clarify I'll try.No problem.
well can't say I haven't tried.And everyone else has as well.I think everyone has done a really good job with a subject that is very difficult.I am amazed that this has gone on this long.
I said I'd be here til the end and I will.There maybe more questions that we all can take crack at.I do think that it is winding down.We really are running in a circle together.And the size of this thing must be a turn off for alot of people.I'd say another few days And it'll be over and we'll all go back to the forums as usual.
I have made some good friends here I think.And don't see any reason that would change.Thanks for sticking it out guys.It ain't over til it's over.I just wanted to say this and not forget when the time comes.Again thanks guys.
it has been fun and frustrating.Happy and sad. But a very good thing none the less

stillakid
05-01-2002, 11:45 PM
Okay, I have another question. You mentioned earlier, Dryanta, that no one is allowed to change, delete, or add to the Bible at risk of eternal doom.

If that is so, that seems to leave no room at all for Jesus's Second Coming. Could you elaborate? Feel free to use illustrations where necessary.

2-1B
05-02-2002, 01:19 AM
Here we go, I also have questions regarding additions to the Bible. :)

What of the differences in the various authors of the Pauline letters, ranging from "Definitely written by Paul", "Possibly written by Paul", and "Definitely not written by Paul"?

And on to the Gospels. If these works were completely divinely inspired, wouldn't it make more sense to have one solid account for all to read? As opposed to Matthew writing from a Jewish POV and Luke writing with Gentiles in mind? Don't get me wrong, it makes sense to target your audience, but I don't think it jives with a literalist view.

Furthermore, why did only Luke go on to write a sequel, the Acts of the Apostles? 4 gospels, only one sequel? Okay, I know Revelation will be considered here but even if you think John wrote it (and the authorship is contested in certain circles) it still doesn't fit with the "sequel question".

SithDroid
05-02-2002, 01:28 AM
Stillakid - the only reason i brought up the questions of the Aliens landing is beacuse it parallels the Aborigonie point that I brought up earlier. The Aliens themselves are in fact "isolated" as well as the aborigonies.

I think that I might take a few days off from this thread, every time I step away and come back there is like 25 new posts that are extremely long and it is getting kind of tiresome to read every single thing. At this rate this thread will be the longest every in the history of SSG.

Tycho
05-02-2002, 02:25 AM
I just need to post a "bookmark" in here, because I'm leaving for Indianapolis in 10 hours and have to take care of some other things - some on easier-to-manage threads on this site.

I will be back on Monday and I'm sure there will be "Hell to pay" as in catching up with all the reading that will need to be done to stay on top of this thread.

Sorry, but I'm going to enjoy my "break" offline while I'm at the Star Wars Celebration.

Those of you going, I will be at the 11 am Girls of Star Wars showing on Friday, meeting Aayla Secura, Mara Jade, Bariss Ofee, Aurra Sing, etc. and I'll be wearing my SirStevesGuide nametag that will say Tycho. Don't hesitate to come up and introduce yourselves. Then I'll be off to the opening ceremonies with Rick McCallum and Hayden Christiansen from 12 Noon to 1:45 pm.

Plus you know I'll be hanging around Hasbro periodically, everyday!

In the time that I'm gone, you are welcome to reply to my insights on the Bible, join my Lizard Religion, Train with my Sith Deciples (if you pass the tests), or snort a lot of Mouse Droids (if you think of me in spirit). :D

At the convention, I will try to refrain from dressing like a large lizard and embarassing Steve, but you are welcome to join me and pray for a sequel to Jurassic Park 3 to be made.

I want to see Arsenio Hall, Carrot Top and Ava Save-a-Lot team up to take on the dinosaur with the cell phone!

Take care and May the Force be with YOU!

I will not be checking this thread again until I'm back - or I'll never get packed!

Dryanta
05-02-2002, 08:15 AM
Morning guys,
I'll speak to Tycho first(for a change:) ) Have a great time for all of us Tycho and be safe.I think we'll all be here when you get back.
Hey stillakid.The second coming,rapture,and actuall physical coming are both explicitely told of in the Bible.Both testaments.It also tells us exactly what he will do,and for how long,so on so on.It doesn't add anything to the bible at all.Because it's all there.
There's nothing to be added.Not much more I can say with out posting a ton of Bible versus.If you want I will ,TMK.
I'll just jump ahead to sithdroid real quick,Take it easy and we'll be here if you decide to come back.Thanks for the questions.I won't presume that I was able to help,but if anything else comes to mind I'll try and answer it.Have a good vacation away from this monster.I've wondered about the Biggest ever thing too.
Hey Caesar,The physical authorship of the pauline letters.Just for the record,they account for 2/3rds of the new testamant.There was a definite motive for this idea that was long ago resovled.
Romans was written by Paul Read 1:1 names himself clearly.1st and second Corinthians ,Galations,Ephesians,Colossians,1st and second Thessalonians,1st and second Timothy,Titus,and Philemon.all are the same,introduces himself in the first verse of the first chapter.
There were questions raised in the 19th century by a group that questioned 1st and second Thessalonians and Philemon.Their questions were based on suposed doctrinal differences between these three books and the rest.Easily disproven by all the scholars of the time.And it was
This is one one those things that was disproven almost instantly but grew some legs so to speak.It was something that skeptics grabbed hold off and continued on.No grounds to it.See Tycho's idea of things like this.Some things seem to get a life of their own.Hope it helps.I can do more research into it if you would like.And post it later.LMK if that would help.
Had to come back sorry.I was thinking about packing up the kids andforgot the second part of your post Caesar,sorry if you started to read this before this edit.
The Gospels Would it make more sense to all be one? You are right and I respect your research into this.
Matthew is written for the Jewish POV,and Luke the Gentile,and yes Luke also wrote the book of Acts.On to that in a sec.There is more to it than simply writing to a specific audience.Each Gospel delves into a specific aspectof the character of Christ.Matthew deals with Jesus fulfilling the Old testament teaching of Him.Marl deals with deals expressly with Jesus' focus on serving others.
Luke deals with the compassion of Jesus.It also fulfills the Greek ideal of human perfection.So in that sense Luke ws writing to a specific audience.And John deals with the deity of Jesus.
The question of whether or not it makes sense vs. one larger book calls fro opinion and I'll give mine.It makes more sense to me that it would ned to be broken down considering it address' amjor specifics of Hie attributes and charcter.They weren't really written to a specific audience but written to draw real focuced attention to the different trait's of Jesus.
If it were just one longer book than it would be very confusing to the point of major points being lost.
Why did only luke write a sequel? And again an opinion,Because god wanted to used him to do it.Sorry but I really can't answer that.I have no idea why.I perposely avoided the John and revelation connection because honestly I've never heard of any question that he was the one that physically wrote it.I'll check into it though. and get back to you.O.K. maybe later today.But we do know that He also wrote 1st, 2nd and 3rd John,but they are not sequels in the same use of the word.So my answer again is I don't know.It's my belief that god wrote these things through men.And I can't say why he chose different ones to write or not write as the case maybe.. certain things.
Now believe it not I actually have something to do today.For once.Yeee HAAA!!!And I need to get on that.Thanks guys and I'll catch you later Tonight.Have a good one again Tycho.And the same to all of you.

JetsAndHeels
05-02-2002, 08:24 AM
Stillakid,
I will try to answer your question the best I can. I guess the reason devout Christians still believe, without having any concrete basis is because they have seen God work in their lives and in others' lives. I know Ive said this before, but to me the greatest testiment to my faith is through my own experiences. I have seen people accept Christ and do a complete 360, like night and day. People I would NEVER expect to change.
It may be close-minded, but Christianity is not the only faith that operates that way. Muslims are taught to resist missionaries when they are attempting to witness to them. Its just a way that people believe and when they feel it in their heart they cannot deny it. Hope that helps a little.

vulcantouch
05-02-2002, 10:35 AM
-good Heavens no whaddya take me for a masochist? :eek: ok ok, i promise to wade thru- that is, just as soon as i successfully broker mideast peace :rolleyes:
vt (http://sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=6679) ;)

stillakid
05-02-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid,
I will try to answer your question the best I can. I guess the reason devout Christians still believe, without having any concrete basis is because they have seen God work in their lives and in others' lives. I know Ive said this before, but to me the greatest testiment to my faith is through my own experiences. I have seen people accept Christ and do a complete 360, like night and day. People I would NEVER expect to change.
It may be close-minded, but Christianity is not the only faith that operates that way. Muslims are taught to resist missionaries when they are attempting to witness to them. Its just a way that people believe and when they feel it in their heart they cannot deny it. Hope that helps a little.

Thanks for that. First, so you don't continue to think of me as a Godless heathen not open to the possiblity of strange things afoot, I want to share a bit of a story with you.

I was doing some research for a screenplay that I was writing a few years back. I took a trip up to San Francisco. Actually, a town just south of the city which amounts to nothing more than acres and acres of cemetaries. Anyway, I was looking for one specific gravesite. I knew the particular cemetary to look in, but had no idea where the guy was buried. The guard at the gate gave me a map and circles this gigantic area where the dead man in question was buried. A friend and I traversed the "rows" of headstones for 45 minutes without making progress. Suddenly, I just stopped. Now, if you've ever heard of St. Anthony, you'll know that he's the patron Saint of "finding lost things." I decided that I had nothing to lose so I dashed off a quick prayer to him. Immediately afterwards, while I was still standing there, for no reason whatsoever, I looked up and over to my left and zeroed in one particular stone. It was several rows away and up and I couldn't see the writing as it was turned away from me. I made a deliberate path toward that grave and just like a movie-shot, as I made my way around it, the words became visible. It was the exact grave I was looking for.

Now, was it St. Anthony "working in my life" to help me? This isn't the only story of me finding things after offering up a little "please help me" prayer. Contact lenses in the grass, etc. Enough to make you scratch your head and wonder, but do I know for sure? No. I don't. I'd like to think so, but I have no idea. Neither does anyone else. You and others say things like "they have seen God work in their lives" which is ridiculous, but if you're talking about the "lessons of God" or something, then it is acceptable terminology. But are "ghosts" spooking around helping people out? Nobody knows. It's fun to believe in, like flying saucers and Bigfoot, but until there is definitive evidence, humans the world over will continue to question. So, if the god you believe in is so powerful and is the only one and his lessons and artifacts are the only correct ones, then why doesn't he just come out of his hiding place and put an end to all of this debate right here and now?:confused:

JetsAndHeels
05-02-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


You and others say things like "they have seen God work in their lives" which is ridiculous, but if you're talking about the "lessons of God" or something, then it is acceptable terminology

Why is it ridiculous?
I have seen it.

stillakid
05-02-2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96


Why is it ridiculous?
I have seen it.

You actually saw God? What does He look like? I understand if you see somebody using the tenents of the religion to better their life, but you're suggesting that you've seen a visible manifestation of the personification of God? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the statement. Please clarify.

JetsAndHeels
05-02-2002, 12:59 PM
No. I have seen God work in peoples' lives. How he has changed people and saved them. That is what I have seen.

stillakid
05-02-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
No. I have seen God work in peoples' lives. How he has changed people and saved them. That is what I have seen.


How do you know it was God? I think that what I'm getting at is that you're shortchanging these people...not giving them any credit for being strong enough on their own to get through their own problems. Why dish off the credit on someone else automatically?

While it's difficult to credit another person with "saving" somebody, because it's easy to investigate the evidence to see whether or not they really helped out, it's far too easy to credit some invisible supernatural entity where it is impossible to really know whether it happened or not. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and trust that they have the internal strength on their own to overcome adversity. "Godless" people or people of "pagan" faiths do it all the time.

JetsAndHeels
05-02-2002, 01:15 PM
The person I was referring to was a non-believer at first. For a long time he refused to go to church or have anything to do with the faith. Then finally he agreed to go. After a few weeks of going, he went up front one day and accepted Christ and joined the church. Since then he has become a very strong leader in the church and has been living a better quality of life. He is happier, and more assured. When I look at him it is hard to imagine that he is the same person I used to see before. God worked in his life, and one Sunday when he gave his testimony, he said that. And I do remember him saying that if it wasnt for God's love, he never would have made it through.

stillakid
05-02-2002, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
The person I was referring to was a non-believer at first. For a long time he refused to go to church or have anything to do with the faith. Then finally he agreed to go. After a few weeks of going, he went up front one day and accepted Christ and joined the church. Since then he has become a very strong leader in the church and has been living a better quality of life. He is happier, and more assured. When I look at him it is hard to imagine that he is the same person I used to see before. God worked in his life, and one Sunday when he gave his testimony, he said that. And I do remember him saying that if it wasnt for God's love, he never would have made it through.


Okay, now you'll have to trust me on this one, that I am NOT being facetious in any way, but how do we know that he wasn't just deluding himself?

He goes to a church and presumably meets a lot of great and friendly people. Seems like a nifty place to be. I don't know his state of mind at the time, but what if he is highly impressionable? Heck, what if he isn't. I suppose it doesn't matter one way or another. The point is, he likes this "place," connects some dots in his head and thinks that all these people are great because of the "religious" stuff floating around the room. So, we can infer that maybe a god or spirit exists, but by the same token, we can infer the exact opposite, that there isn't and the human mind is far more powerful than it is being given credit for. He can say anything he wants about God doing it or whatever, but him just saying it doesn't mean that it's actually happening. He may just want to think that it is happening because that's what the literature in the room tells him.

JetsAndHeels
05-02-2002, 01:25 PM
Well that was about 5-6 years ago. And believe me, I know this person. He wouldnt do anything he didnt have to do. Plain and simple.

snakeplkn
05-02-2002, 02:07 PM
I have always thought the written word is mankind's most dangerous weapon. Millions upon millions have laid down their lives or gone to their deaths believing in the words of another, whether it be the Bhagavad Gita, I-Ching, Torah, Bible, Quran, United States Constitution, Communist Manifesto, Origin of Species, Theory of Relativity, Mein Kampf, or the simple fact they were "just following orders."

Words can be used to cure the sickliest patient. Words can be used to construct a bomb capable of destroying an entire city. Words can be used to spread love or hate. Words can be used for mindless banter on that POTF2 MOMC Obi-Wan with long saber.

Now all of you had come out with your own stories and viewpoints, words embodying the person that you are, the experiences that you have lived.

Snake Plissken
"A little human compassion"

Dryanta
05-02-2002, 03:26 PM
well said snake,very well said.No denying that is a fact.

Hey stillakid way off topic.I've got to ask you a question(anyone else for that matter) before I forget for the milionth time.When Star Wars the Magic of myth was in L.A. did you go see it?Going to check it out next month in Brooklyn and was wondering what you or anybody else though about the contents of the exhibit.??
Sorry for that,Caesar I've had a few minutes to check into the John and revelation thing.This is what I've found.
The book itself has the name John used in it refering to the author 4 times..Now was it John the disiple or another John ? the question came up in the middle of the third century by Dionysious.He observed a clear difference in style between the Gospel and the three epistles.I guess the Greek grammar is less up to par in comparison.and some expressions used and vocabulary.The other thing is in all of John's other books he avoids refering to himself.But at the same time the actual distinctive use of terms and specific words coincide with the Gospel and epistles.So there was(is?) some confusion.
a couple of explainations have been offered.That John may have had dictated the words to someone more suited to the greek. He would not have had that option on Patmos.Remember he had been "boiled in oil" and it didn't kill him so they sent him into exile on Patmos.That alone would alter my writing style ;)
The letters to the churches were also welcomed by the churches and believed because it was apparent to them that they Had come from John the Apostle.If it had been another John or John the Prophet,they would'nt have.Also it is written in the book that the author was on Patmos.He is the only Biblical John(the apostle) to have been on the exile island.
So I hope that helps.There is also the comment made by Jesus to Peter saying this"If I will that he remain until I come,what is that to you?You follow me."
So in the very first days of the christian faith it was belived that because of this statement John(who was alot younger than the other disiples) would not die until he saw the return of Christ.Well he did.Hope it helps.
Oh I wanted to also touch base with you on the 666 Nero thing you mentioned earlier in this thread.I came across it this afternoon while checking into the John thing for you.
The book of revelation was written at the time that ridicule was turning into hatred and persecution of Christians by the Romans.Now some think that this was during the time of Nero.For those who aren't familiar with the meaning of 666.The term in the book of revelation is "the number of the beast for it is the number of a man.His number is 666".The leters in the arimaic or Hebrew alphabet were also asigned numbers.So yes the Number of Nero Caesar (Neron Kasra) add up to six hundred and sixty six.And there was also a legend built around this by the Romans that Nero would appear after his death in the east.The only problem is the time frame doesn't add up.Domitian was the empoer at the time.And it was under him that the persecution was started not Nero.The worship of deseased emporers had been common for years but Domitian was the first to demand it while he was alive,as the prophecy says about the Beast,Not Nero.This is what lead to an even bigger clash between the early christians and Rome.It was the beginning of the persecutions and they only got worse afterwards.John wasn't released from Patmos more than likely until after Domitian was dead..Help any at all? If you need me to be more clear or more in depth I'll try no problem.Now I have a couple other things I need to get into.
:)

stillakid
05-02-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
well said snake,very well said.No denying that is a fact.

Hey stillakid way off topic.I've got to ask you a question(anyone else for that matter) before I forget for the milionth time.When Star Wars the Magic of myth was in L.A. did you go see it?Going to check it out next month in Brooklyn and was wondering what you or anybody else though about the contents of the exhibit.??


It wasn't in LA, it was in San Diego. Actually, I went to the much bigger exhibit in San Francisco in '95 which was absolutely awesome. Tons of stuff.

I have been to the MOM in San Diego and again in Toledo last year. Although not nearly as much stuff as the "original" US exhibit (the first was actually in Japan), the MOM is certainly worth the visit. It is relatively small, so go ahead and get the headphones that give background info on the various exhibits. My favorite parts were the models and the "reveal" Vader mask. I understand that they are adding some EP 2 stuff for NY, but I could be mistaken.

stillakid
05-02-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
what is your opinion on Noah's ark being on Mt.Ararat in Turkey/Satelite photos show it clearly.It's been broken in half and the lower(in altitude) section is buried in ice.Thermo imageing still shows it.
See this is why I've tried to avoid this.I've had this conversation before the exact conversation.He says "how do you know it's really Noah's ark?" "The measurements are the same,and it is made of Gopher wood.There have been samples analized."(that's where my comment earlier about it now being exstinct came from)
" yeah well,why isn't common knowledge? How come big pieces haven't been brought down?" "The government of Turkey won't allow it.They consider it a sacred spot and won't allow any one near it.Haven't in very long time, years.Once it was proven to be there"
There see!Religion getting in the way of science."
I've actually had that conversation.I've mentioned that the bible expressly says that the earth was round and was "suspended' in space.The dead sea scrolls prove that these are the oldest texts saying this.Long before anybody else any where had a clue.The response,Yeah well I think they're fakes.Planted by religious fanatics to prove them selves.
I've spoken to people about the Roman documentation proving a galiean was crucified on that Friday before pass over for "insurection" and he was hung between two thieves.
There are alos Roman documents that tell of Herord and Pontius Pilot being in Isreal and in charge at the time.Also the command from Herod to kill all the Baby boys in the area of Bethlehem under the age of two.There is also writings and charts from either the incas or myans that record the six hours of darkness that fell on the earth the day of the crucifixtion.There calender is really easy to follow back to exact dates in time.If you know how anyway.
The day the Earth stopped spining has also been proven by astronmers to have happened.the Earth stopped spinning for a day.The atomic clocks also show this some how.
So here we go,I've used science again to prove my own points right?But is that the kinds of things you've wanted?Or will you say that the scince doesn't prove the Bible but the Bible stories just incorporate these events into them to add drama and credibility.Heard that before too.Maybe i have unfarly strapped you with someone elses baggage,and if so I am sorry.But I have gone the "proof" route so many times that I guess i'm some what predudiced against it.Nothing you ever say is good enough.And even if God walked up and slapped them right in the head they wouldn't believe it.
So Think what you want but I do know he's real and his word is real.Sorry I just do.Just like you know no body knows right?It is faith and true and real and those things can be known.if you don't know it does it make it not true?Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt anything at all.You've already said you can't and neither can I.Have not held the dead sea scolls,I haven't climbed Ararat to check out the remnants of the Ark.So can I prove anything.Nope.Don't need to really.Do you need to prove anything to me?Nope.If you find inconsistancies in what I've said.I'm sorry I'm human.


As promised, I went looking for additional information in regards to the topics stated above in an attempt to add to the pot of popular "opinion." The first of my "findings" comes in the form of an email reply I received from another friend who responded to the above. In order to maintain the delicate decorum that we have attempted to preserve, his email has been edited for content.

I don't know where this guy got his data, but it's a hodgepodge of misinformation, flat out error, and, well, faith in his convictions. The truth may set one free, but error and faith make it much easier to believe.

For instance: Mt. Ararat (sp? whatever) is not a Holy Place by Turkish beliefs. It's in a dangerous and inaccessible part of Turkey. The Khurd, a separatist minority in Turkey, control the area, and tend to prey on western visitors and their accompanying government guards and officials. As for the so called ark, this is misinformation that has been passed on for quite a while. By historical and local lore, it is very well known in the area to be an old and abandoned monastery. As for the gopher wood construction- never heard that one before, but as the first two points are wrong, I have little reason to accept the third. Oh, the two, so called sections? Two buildings. As for the dimensions, anyone who's had possession of a Bible for umpteen years know what they are and could deliberately construct a building (or two for that matter) that came out to the dimensions. Although, I prefer this reason- "exact" measurements, I would say, are probably as difficult to come by as anything else on the so-called ark. There is a reason we have the word "coincidence" in our language.

No, it just doesn't fit. We have satellites in orbit that can photograph a license plate. It seems to me that there are enough Christians in the world in places of power or with money (not all satellites are govt. owned after all) that someone would have taken good, high quality images of it and published a definitive work, removing all doubt on the subject. On the other hand, I admit, I would question the veracity of such a book, as I wouldn't trust the author's neutrality. But hey, at least it would be something debatable and verifiable. A doubter could hire a spy sat and take her own picts, and publish her own book. No. The very lack of this kind of proof is exactly what allows for the belief. Even if spy sat photos showed it to be a monastery, he'd still be convinced that the story of Noah's ark was still true. Indeed: they probably built the monastery there simply because they thought it was the place Noah landed! Just like the Church of the Nativity. I mean, for pity sake: the church wasn't there, after all, when Jesus was born!

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls: huh? Where did this guy get his info, because it is clearly wrong? The whole point of amazement about the Dead Sea Scrolls was they're almost word for word match with the modern texts!!!!! It was supposed to be proof of the unerring nature of the word of God!!!!! One can't have it both ways. So, if the DSS do say something different, it means that two thousand years of Christians have been worshipping a false "Word of God" and never noticed it? This is supposed to lend credence to one's belief in God how? If anything, THIS is both his funniest and saddest assertion.

As for the Roman documentation: could be. I've not heard of it in all my studies, but the Romans were fantastic fanatics about keeping records. So what? Just because there was an actual figure that got crucified (which I have never really doubted- they crucified LOTS of people) is not proof of his (Jesus) Godhood. A lunatic might have existed at the same time and suffered the same fate. See the movie The Life of Brian for an antidote for reading conclusions into simple acts. And sure, Herod, Pontius Pilot. Look, it's a well-known fact that a story goes over better if you use real events and real people.

The common antidote to Biblical Historians is as follows. Troy was a real city. We've excavated it, and yep, it got the Hell sacked out of it (several times actually). No credible historian doubts that the Greeks of Peloponnesian (sp?) went to Asia Minor (now Turkey), carried out a long war there, and eventually burned the city to the ground. There is ample evidence of King Agamemnon and others that are listed in the Odyssey by name. However, no one gives any credence to the idea that the Gods actually appeared on the battle field- no one accepts the idea that Achilles put a spear in Apollo, God of the Sun. Yet they feel that simply because there is some archeological proof for their mythological view that we should accept it as straight from God's mouth to our ears. Sorry. If I must accept the one on those grounds, the other is equally valid. Yet I see few Biblical Historians worrying about the wrath of Zeus. And while God might send you to Hell, Zeus was much more likely to crisp you today for your lack of respect.

As for the Earth's stopping in it's tracks: well, I suppose if you are an omnipotent deity, nothing is, by definition, beyond your capabilities. As for the so-called proof though: I've read extensively on the subject of astronomy, although I admit there are always holes to knowledge. I am not familiar with the Incan etc (although, I will say that there was no Incan civilization at 1ad- a major flaw in his proof) astronomical knowledge. But I have a passing knowledge of Chinese lore. And as of my last reading, I recall coming across no records of such an event. Understand that the Chinese are the ones that recorded among other celestial events, the supernova that created the Crab Nebulae. I think the omission in their records is a most telling disproof. But then again, an omnipotent God would simply let the Chinese THINK that the world didn't stop spinning.

I am a skeptic. I admit it. But I am a scientist. While I would require a great deal of consistent proof, I could be persuaded there is a God. If God came up to me and slapped me in the face, I would have a hard time refuting it (although I might claim it was the Devil- however, even I realize that recognizing the existence of the Devil would, in some capacity, be an acceptance of the idea of God as well). However, your friend is not a scientist. Your friend is, for lack of a better word, a zealot. There is NO amount of evidence that would disprove to him his belief. Even if God himself told him it was all a construction made up by an evil cabal of masons, he would simply believe that the Devil were trying to sway him, that it was not, could not, be God.

RooJay
05-02-2002, 11:46 PM
I have always held to the belief that the Bible is intended as a guide and tool with which to explore your faith. Let's not forget that, whether you are a believer or not (I am), the Bible is said to be the word of God as interpreted by man. There is an ENORMOUS difference between faith and BLIND faith. Find it for yourself. It IS in there if you look for it. Believers and non-believers alike can, and sadly sometimes will, twist the word to their own needs and views.

stillakid
05-03-2002, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
Believers and non-believers alike can, and sadly sometimes will, twist the word to their own needs and views.

Quite true. I've always found that people develop an opinion about something, and then go out to find "facts" to back it up.

It is difficult, but I make an honest attempt to do it the right way; consider the varying sides and evaluate the evidence continually, up to and frequently beyond the point in which a definitive conclusion has been reached. There is not and has not yet been any definitive evidence yet of the existence of any supernatural being nor any definitive evidence at this time of any of the artifacts in question being of supernatural origin or created under supernatural circumstances. But I remain open to the possiblity.

bigbarada
05-03-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


Quite true. I've always found that people develop an opinion about something, and then go out to find "facts" to back it up.

It is difficult, but I make an honest attempt to do it the right way; consider the varying sides and evaluate the evidence continually, up to and frequently beyond the point in which a definitive conclusion has been reached. There is not and has not yet been any definitive evidence yet of the existence of any supernatural being nor any definitive evidence at this time of any of the artifacts in question being of supernatural origin or created under supernatural circumstances. But I remain open to the possiblity.

Isn't that the "scientific method" though? First develop a hypothesis (opinion) then find the evidence to back it up?

For those who just have to be beat over the head with evidence before they believe anything, then "no" you will probably never find enough evidence of God's existence to satisfy you. God states in the Bible that the world around us is proof enough that he exists. That's all we are getting, so we have to take it or leave it.

In ref to Stillakid's question about not adding or subtracting to the Bible. When Jesus was born of Mary, it was to fulfill the Old Testament also to render much of it obsolete. We don't "throw it out" like you assumed before, it still provides an excellent referrence to how things were back in those days for the Jews and gives an outline of events leading up to Jesus' birth. It's kept for matters of historical reference in the same way that you would keep a WW2 book or a movie about the Civil War.

When Jesus arrives again, it will have the same effect on the New Testament as His first coming had on the Old. We are not allowed to add or take away from the Bible, because it is God's book. Only He can add to it. The rules that God gives us to do not apply to Him. Just like when a parent tells a kid not to cross the street without supervision or play with the TV remote, those rules wouldn't apply to that parent would they? This is what I believe, and 'yes' I can prove it; but not in a way that you would find satisfactory so I won't bother. Take it or leave it.

BTW, Stillakid, I find your choice of avatar to be kind of funny, not because of the 'clever' way it parodies the old Christian symbol of the fish; but because Darwin recanted his Evolution theory on his death bed. He admitted that he just made it all up. Thereby, making it a sci-fi story that everyone fell for. I know your not using it because you actually believe in Darwin's theories, your past arguments would suggest that you don't. I also realize you are just using it to "get those stupid Christians' goat." Anyways, thanks for the laugh.:D

I'm way behind in this discussion, so I won't post anymore until I have the energy to read all the past discussions.

stillakid
05-03-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada


Isn't that the "scientific method" though? First develop a hypothesis (opinion) then find the evidence to back it up?



Yes, it is. But it also includes the willingness and understanding to let go of preconceived notions if the evidence does not support the hypothesis. "True" scientists are capable of this, for if one is unable to do so, then by default, he isn't really a scientist.

In fact, Darwin's ideas, in general, are still quite accepted. There may be details in question, but that is the entire purpose for the scientific method in the first place. Pose a question and then look for answers to it. Merely stopping in mid-evaluation before examining all of the evidence (even that which hasn't been found yet) just to support a theory doesn't prove a thing for anyone. That's what the Fundamentalists do consistently. Some so-called Scientists do it as well, but as I said, they aren't really following the actual scientific method in that case.

stillakid
05-03-2002, 06:48 PM
BB,

In order to understand the message, sometimes it's helpful to know a little about the messenger. From previous posts, I understand that you were in the military in some capacity. Admittedly, I don't know much about military training except for what I've heard and read about, but I presume that a part of that training includes being taught to take orders without questioning authority. As an individual in that particular situation, you are trained to take it on "faith" that the orders you are given are in everyone's best interest. Is that correct?

Vortex
05-03-2002, 07:03 PM
Zow, we're all getting really deep here, and what to me is amazing is the lack of history that's coming out. Has anyone ever really looked at a religious groups roots? How it started? The reasons and reasoning behind it?

I'm sure there's going to be some "yes, I have" people out there, but I'm going to tell you you're wrong right now with that answer. The information you've recieved has been from a fellow believer, some one in the circle of your faith. Their information was passed down from some one else, who got that info from some other follower. Do you really think a Priest, Decon, Monk, Paster, etc. is really going to tell you the evil points of a religion? Tell you the inconsistiancies, the voids? You only really find out about your religion when you step outside and look at it from an outsiders stand point and it is quite the eye opener.

I'm not a religious buff, don't think one faith is better than another, and I get annoyed with people who push their belief system on me and say they are tolerant with other faiths till I start to question theirs, and why they believe what they do and why, and then they become the most closed minded souls out there...and sometimes the most evil and hateful.

I'm not a Catholic, but when to a Catholic grade school, and a Catholic high school, you could say I'm luthern, but I don't hold to those ideals either, and I don't think of myself as christian either. I have no denomination really, but I do believe in a supreme being that started this whole mess we the universe and life. Some where in a class, another boring dry sermon, I realized that Marx was right, to a small degree, organized religion is an opium for the masses...it tells people what it wants to hear, modify ideas, and ideologies to make people feel better and give them an excuse for their actions. Which at time can be good, but no one thinks anymore, no one investigates things to find out why. We just accept. Its like beliving the food at subway is actually "fresh"...odd when its packed on a truck, shipped across country and stuck in a fridge for weeks...

Now before people jump on me with all this hate mail...again read the 2nd paragraph...I did a little research into the Christian Faith and oddly enough, it borrows/steals/modifys many ancient egyptian myths. I'm currently forgetting the names of the gods, and time lines, but I could easly find them when I get home, but the stories that hold true with Christianity like, born of the virgin, the death and rebirth, the saving of the world, are all intertwind with old Egyptian myths. Which are basically tied into the seasons, star alignments, and earths position over the centuries. They used stories to explain natural events...its much easier to remember a interesting story that try to remember how many weeks after spring solstice you need to plant your crops.

You mix in people telling these stories by word of mouth prior to them being written down, a few holy wars, persecutions, the crusades, monks copying the bible by candle light, throw in the loss of knowledge, or physically and mentally subdued knowledge, and corruption of the church during the dark ages, sprinkly in a few ideas of church leads as to how things are to be and how we interpret them, and what you have now is a completely differnt style of faith. Look how many divisions of christians are out there, and churches keep branching off from some parent religion. Heck, look at how many differnt versions of the bible there are. At this point in time, what is correct? Who's correct?

If you want a good read about some major religoius changes to the christian faith, read Rosslyn...this is one I can remember. Its more of a grail hunt, but it illuminates the obscuring and corrupt politics of the church and how relics where lost, monks silenced, and the killings of religious orders by church leaders.

But I'll get off my soap box, and just say, don't trust, question, investigate what you believe in and see if still holds true to you.

If you desire the light keep searching, don't just trust. Take what you believe in and explore it. Religion is good, it is helpful, but becareful it can also be dangerous.

Dryanta
05-03-2002, 07:40 PM
Hey Guys,
Thanks Stillakid for the info.From what the insider says there will be EP2 stuff there by the time we go in June.And send thanks to the author of the emails you posted for their input.
And thanks to you as well tjovonovich. I do appreciate your input as well.Well I guess I'm going to go on with life as usual now.I think we've gotten to the point that we are all just saying the same things over and over.At least we all know pretty much where everyone else is coming from.But I don't see much good coming from just repeat,repeat ,repeat.
It's all a matter of public record now.And if some one wants to know what I think about something if it's not here then feel free to PM or email me and I'll be glad to talk.Things are a changing around here for a while and I'll still be around and still check what's going on here.I'll post again when there's maybe something new to say.There are a few things I didn't address and I appologize to all for that.Again Pm or email will be responded to.If I can I'll come back and see what I have missed or I may have stated wrong.Just try and clear things up. And there are things I need to clear up I'm sure.
Hey guys it's been fun and I'll be back when I can.
Have at it guys.And take care.
Dave (dryanta)

RooJay
05-03-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Do you really think a Priest, Decon, Monk, Paster, etc. is really going to tell you the evil points of a religion?
Yes, I do. I was once told by a theologian (a very smart man who went to college to study religion) who also happened to be an evangelist (and, no they are NOT all like the ones you see on t.v.!) that "religion" is the greatest weapon the devil ever created. Religion is often what divides society, and historically is one of the main causes of war and violent conflict. Take a look a what is currently happening in the middle east. Think about the "jihad" that many millitant muslims have declared against our country and our way of life! People throughout history have used "religion" as an excuse to exclude others, and as a justification for their hatred. Religion can be a bad thing sometimes, but there is an overwhelming difference between religion and FAITH. I try hard to never judge other people's faith (I won't say I never judge because I'm no more perfect than anyone else). God gives everyone the choice to be a believer or not; the choice to believe in whatever you choose. If someone else is wrong then that is between them and God. Faith comes from within your heart. Faith you have to find for yourself. Faith has very little to do with the organization you claim membership to, or the building you worship in. Faith is a very personal relationship between you and God.

bigbarada
05-03-2002, 08:09 PM
Later Dave, it was good having you in this discussion.:cool: I'm about to call it quits soon too since I am way too far behind and am reaching the limits of my current knowledge of the Bible. So I need to study some more and try to dissect why I believe the way I do in many instances.

tjovonovich, I agree with you about time, people and politics perverting the truth, and I definitely agree about the Christian customs borrowed from ancient Egypt; but Egypt didn't invent those beliefs, they borrowed them from the Sumerians and Babylonians. My discussions with Bosskman on which version of the Bible (King James or Catholic) is the most accurate led me to research the topic and realize the answer was "neither." The only way to get close to the "original" Bible is using the direct tranlation from the Hebrew manuscripts, which includes using the Hebrew Torah.

Stillakid, yes the Army teaches you to take orders without question. In Basic Training we heard the mantra, "repetition first, understanding later." Which I've found actually works in many instances; but I don't use it to blindly follow orders. If I didn't agree with the order, I wouldn't follow it. Which got me in trouble more often than not. In fact, my non-conforming nature led me to be somewhat of an outcast in Army life. Instead of going out and getting drunk and getting laid, like all my friends in the barracks; I would stay in my room and either watch movies or draw. Of course, I went out a few times and there was one period of about a year and a half when I WAS actually going out to clubs and bars every weekend. However, that got old and boring and soon I realized that I wasn't really enjoying myself, so I stopped. I seriously started questioning my faith while I was in Germany, in 1992-93, the culture shock of going from a relatively sheltered life at home to being in a foreign country and dragged around to strip shows and nightclubs (where the first German girl I talked to actually turned out to be a guy in drag :o ), led me to be very resentful of my parents and have a very anti-religious attitude. I abandoned everything, except my belief in God, I could never drop that belief. I spent the next several years searching for the answers in science, other religions and in nature (trying to "figure it out on my own"). Nothing made any sense until I got out a couple months ago and started reading my Bible again. Suddenly it was like everything I was looking for was right in front of my face. An emptiness in my soul had been filled and I was truly happy again. That's WHY I believe the way I do.

In any case, I have to back out of this discussion for now. I'll come back when I'm smarter (don't hold your breath). If you have any more questions about my personal beliefs and experiences then feel free to PM me.

BTW, Tycho, I've been meaning to ask, where were you in Starship Troopers? I wanted to watch the movie again and see if I could pick you out. However, if you were one of the naked people in the shower scene then nevermind.:)

Taichi
05-03-2002, 08:35 PM
I don't believe in any form of religion, because it's not for me.....

but, It's cool that so many people here are Christian......I don't mind it.....so long as I'm not prosletyzed to.......

and, yes, I know I quote the bible in my signature, but I think we all understand why.......

stillakid
05-04-2002, 11:01 AM
More Universal ponderings....


As for the cosmological debate- I have several points.

First: I am well aware of the current thinking on the Big Bang. Red shift run backwards. The Cosmic Background Radiation. But I have found the idea increasingly unsatisfactroy for about the last 7 years, perhaps longer. I remember reading Hawking's Brief History of Time, and started thinking that the BB was amiss, and the feeling has simply grown as I have learned more. Some simple problems that cause me to doubt the BB.

1) Why should the acceleration observed in the red shift be accelerating? Doesn't this smack of a 2nd Law violation? Where's the additional energy coming into the system from? I know what the BB cosmologist are saying, but it isn't particularly satisfying. A new force? What if a theory explains everything observable and doesn't use this "new repellent force"? Simpler is better.

2) The extreme size/ complexity of the universe (proximity). In the short 15 billion years since the universe was born, we sure managed to get far. In fact, as far back as we can see in time, there were well developed galaxies. Doesn't this seem a bit counterintuitive? If we're seeing back to withing 3 billion years of the BB, shouldn't the galaxies be, well, a bit primative? And how did things get so far apart in such a short time frame (all things
being equal)?

Again, I know what the cosmologists say: tunneling. But the only reason they say it is because they can't have their BB theory and their size/complexity without it. And, if they try to change the age of the Universe, they run into problems with the measured value of the heat energy measured in the Cosmic Background. "Well," they say. "See? It's obvious there was tunneling." But I'm thinking that if you have to bend over that far to have all your facts match, you are probably following the same path as Ptolomey. Certainly, not absolutely. Maybe it did. But it has the sound of "magic pixies did it overnight" logic.

3)heterogeneity/homogeneity problems: Why are the cosmic laws evidently the same everywhere. Even Hawking will tell you that it could have just as easily been different. Yet everywhere we look, it appears anyway, that the basic laws are universal. Flip side- if everything were distributed evenly, then how did we get the large universal structures we have today so quickly.

Again, I'm aware of the reasons given- and again, tunneling plays a major role. But once again, it is one of those situations where we know so much that we now know they cannot have the large macrogalactic structures, and have a universe only 15 billion without, well, quantum magic. Stretch the age of the Universe to account for it, and suddenly your Cosmic Background is too hot. It's too narrow a window, so they wave a magic wand: quantum
mechanics did it.

4) the flatness problem: How is it, that the Universe just happened to explode into being with just the perfectly correct values of mass and energy to exactly balance between open and closed curves? Just happened? Simply born into the right universe? We would only exist in one that was perfectly flat?Anthropomorphic explanations are bunkum, or at least come darn close. Woudn't a non BB theory that accounted for the reason for flatness be much more easy to swallow?

5) the invisible mass problem: we all know that the universe is acting 90 times more massive than it is. The only way to account for it using BB/quantum mechanics is to either suppose there is some "stuff" out there that only reacts with other stuff with gravity. And I have an invisible dragon in my garage- you can smell it's smokey breath. But only after the car has left the garage.

Again, they are waving their magic wands- quantum folks saying that the gravity comes from the interaction of all the parallel universes, and the cosmologist say it is this otherwise unobservable "dark matter". And Mesmer said there was a fluid that ran through the whole universe that was undetectable except in the effect he could cause in people. Smoke and mirrors. I no longer buy it.

No, the BB theorist are grasping at straws these days, trying to keep an admittedly great starting theory, but critically flawed one, alive. Or that's how I see it now.

Second, some notes. I've never heard a theory of turbulence in modern galactic structure theory. Yet, if you have the opportunity, I suggest a little experiment. Next time you are at an outdoor pool on a sunny day, let the water calm, then move a foot or hand through the water in an arching pattern. Notice the shape of the shadows of the swirls on the bottom of the pool. I spent a good deal of time doing this the other day, and the similarity in appearance to galactic structures is uncanny. Perhaps simply a
coincidence, true. But I started to wonder- so I continue to wonder the following.

We have a preexisting matrix, call it space time. Nothing occurs in space time, because it is essentially perfectly chilled. Not to say there is nothing in it, but the distribution of energy is sort of the entropal endpoint: so it is completely cold. Then, for lack of a better analogy, it gets sloshed, stuck, vibrated, the hand of god swishes through it (I speak only metaphorically), turbulence is introduced somehow (adding some energy to the system incidentally). The turbulence or shockwaves then create the
structures where the energy change is greatest. Then, just like the whorls in a swiming pool, they (due to friction with the original matrix which we see as entropy) slowly dwindle away.

I ask you: doesn't that reflect precisely what we are seeing? The Cosmic BG= the disappating heat from the force that caused the turbulence. The Red Shift (accelerating red shift)= as the galactic structures shrink and dwindle away, the universe becomes less dense, and in accordance with Relativity, time speeds up. The flatness problem and the heterogeniety problems (along with some aspects of the others) vanish because they are qualities of a pre-existing matrix, not something that exploded out of nothingness.

Another thought: the speed of light. Does anyone know why it is the value it is? What quality of space and time makes it the value it is? And here, I don't mean a circular arguement like, well, if light traveled faster, it would travel backwards in time...It simply begs the question of why time is the speed it is.

I have an idea though. What if the speed of light has to do with the avoidance of paradoxes in the universe. Specifically, it isn't the speed of light that is in question, but the flow of information, correct? Well, what if there is some piece of information carried by the universe, say at it's beginning, that, if it were "knowable" say before the end of the universe, would create a paradox. That would then force a speed limit on that piece of information so that it could not reach a "knower" until it was consistent
with the ending point of the universe.

To describe what I mean in a metaphor. Let's say for a moment, that the Universe is curved back on itself so that, if you took off in a rocket from the Earth and flew far enough and fast enough, you would come back to your starting point. Now, bear with me as this metaphor/analogy isn't perfect, but- let us say that the total universe is not very big after all. Now, light leaving the Earth would travel out, at all times- so light from the distant past would come to the distant future. But, on this basketball spacetime universe, the opposite would also be true (not REALLY- its an analogy though)- light from the far future would ark across the universe to the old earth- which would be a
paradox violation as the distant past couldn't know the future. Therefore light would have to travel so slowly that it could never circle the Universe and come back- the possiblitly of paradox would set the speed limit.

Now, I KNOW the universe has found other ways (for instance, the one way movement of time). But I'm trying to explain something I don't have a good vocabulary for: paradoxes and spacetime etc all being the vaguest of abstract idea. But such a mental exercise does do something: it suggest that the very speed of light may tell us something about the universe other than its speed limit. The "why" of it might tell us (if it's a paradox avoidence strategy, for instance) what the size of the universe is and how old it is. It might give us an independent measure that we could then compare to the Cosmic Background and see if the values are wildly inconsistent or if the one verifies the other.

Dar' Argol
05-04-2002, 11:27 AM
Well, as Dryanta and Big-B stated, I have reached my limits for this thread. I'm taking a break from posting here. I will continue to keep my "eye" on it, to make sure nothing gets outta hand, but I'm taking a break from posting. This is a very exhausting thread, and I have enjoyed it much. Too many times a good thread is destroyed b/c someone can't control themselves. I want to take this moment to thank everyone involved for your self restraint. It made "Modding' this thread that much easier:D. I respect everyones thoughts and beliefs. Here's to seeing you outside this thread:D.

Dar' Argol

Tycho
05-08-2002, 03:49 PM
I'm back and I just was surprised not to see this thread at the top of the lists for discussion in the general forums section.

What's up?

I have a lot of reading to catch up with I'm sure!

Dryanta
05-08-2002, 03:53 PM
Hey tycho,
I'm around,just been trying to put together a reply with other things happening.Give me another day and I'll post agian.Glad you had fun at cel2.Just had to ask the wee wee question didn't ya!!

stillakid
05-08-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I'm back and I just was surprised not to see this thread at the top of the lists for discussion in the general forums section.

What's up?

I have a lot of reading to catch up with I'm sure!

Truth be told, I kinda ran out of steam on it. JesusFreak bolted out the door before I could really discern from him what he wanted to gain by posting in the first place. Oh well. I've gotten a surprisingly large amount of work done since my mind hasn't been on this topic for a week now! ;)

bigbarada
05-09-2002, 03:13 AM
Tycho, you never did tell us where to find you in Starship Troopers.:)

Tycho
05-09-2002, 05:49 PM
That would be kind of hard if you don't know what I look like.

In the movie I was a high school newspaper reporter right by Denise Richards in the jump ball scenes (not unintentionally I can assure you) - and I do look like my alter ego here, Captain Tycho Celchu, with short blonde hair and a winning smile (heh-heh-hee).

Later I went on to become the only Starship Trooper Space Marine with a Mouse Droid! It was my mission to discover whether or not the Brain Bug had a wee-wee. :rolleyes:

Just kidding.

2-1B
05-09-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
It was my mission to discover whether or not the Brain Bug had a wee-wee. :rolleyes:

Ah yes, Doogie Howser's mindmeld. (did you get to meet him :D ?)
I think the Brain Bug has enough of a biology similarity to it, a "wee-wee" would be the least of that figure's problems. :rolleyes:

I was in a movie with Denise Richards, too. And Nev Campbell. No wait, that was Matt Dillon. Sorry for the confusion. :p

Dryanta
05-09-2002, 08:05 PM
been a interesting week.For me anyway.I've really struggled with where to try and go from here.I will not walk away from you guys.I cant' walk away.
A can of worms was opened here by Jesusfreak.No one would disagree with that.His motivation,I can't say.I can tell you what mine would be if I had decided to start this thing.To help anybody reading it.Was that his? don't know.
You know I said I would go back over everything and try and clarify thinks I've said.Tried and can't.And I'll tell you all why.I was trying to stand on my own wisdom.Stupid mistake for anyone to make.Stillakid was 100% correct on two points.The first being I am not a "scientist" I am a zealot.Period.
I spent the last few days researching all kinds of things to come back with.Not gonna happen.All of it is empty."Man's wisdom is as foolishness to God" No solid footing at all.So I will not do it any longer.
The second thing your friend said was that if someone came down here and claimed god hood fundamentalists would claim he was the devil.
Yep,sure would and WILL!!
I cannot deny the need to say these things any longer.alot of people here have wanted physical proof,referred to seeing God.
Guess what,if you're waiting for it to happen here,most of you will be dead before it happens.
There is one that will come and unify this world,governments and religions.And alot of people are already chanting his montra.Mankind has been set up from the begining.Don't like it?To bad.It started in the garden with the original questioning of what had said.Again wording and second guessing what He really said.Same first lie different era.NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!!!
What will happen to you the day ALL tue believers in Jesus Christ are plucked from this planet?Will you then remember this thread and try and come back and gleen some info?Or will you wholeheartly buy the cookie cutter explainations that have been ready to be released when needed?Aliens purifying the planet of hostile close minded bigots.Mother Nature doing away with us.Or how about the great imposter telling you he's god and he got rid of all the heretics in the world.And he'll back up his assertions with incredible power and signs and wonders.Or maybe we were caught up to meet the lord in the air and will be back in about 7 years?By the side of the one true God to clean it all up.
What is going to happen to you.2/3s of all life is going to die in seven years.Everthing else will be sick or polluted beyond human hope.Well?Don't believe it for a minute? good don't .No really,There needs to be new christians here after we are gone.
What will you really do when all the proof you ever demanded hit's you between the eyes?
You'll run for cover and beg the rocks to hide you from the face of God.That's what the Bible say's you'll do.Will you crack jokes and stare him down?Oh please!!He has a very real sense of humor,but no patience for stupidity or ego.Harsh words?they are His not mine.Sorry,I really am.
Will you just grow angrier and more bitter in the defense of your rebellion against God?Sadly most will.It will be so obvious who is behind it all that instead of acceptance and grace people will choose hatred and murder.
Science will completely break down to the empty words it is,because it will not be able to answer ANY questions.Purely supernatural.There will be no way around it.No comfort zone,no crutchs,no hiding.Only picking sides.
Time is very short people.One day very soon Me and many,many others will be gone.
So I post this here so that on that day you will have someplace to go for understanding.Mock,riducule,hate,despise,or never speak to me again for now.But maybe later you'll thank me for being obedient to God and warning you and tring to help you see how to avoid the whole mess.
Now if any of you have real questions feel free to ask them.Same with angry,bitter folks who swell up with anger when you read this.Just do your self an enormous favor and search your self for the real reason it makes you angry.The truth hurts.IT is NEVER a pleasant experience.So you figure it out.Now or later you will figure it out.
The truth is inside of us all.Period.Deal with it and stop trying to defend yourselfs.It's a fool's errand.
anybody really want to try and learn something new ?I am done argueing empty words and age old lies.History,Ancient religion,the friggin ark,evolutuion,The universe,blah blah blah.
Nice places to visit but no place to try and live a very short life.
well? I'm here.Let's get real and quit the crap.You got real questions about what I've said,fire away.No more wastes of time.
There are way to many others to spend energy on in this arena.
we can go back to talking Star Wars and act like this never happened.Like that's gonna happen right?Every one has been cut here,no way around it.I have been more beaten than anyone.The word of God is a two edged sword.It cut's both ways.You want to swing it be ready to get all hacked up yourself.

Jason B
05-09-2002, 08:20 PM
you know, you may read this, and just pass it off as nothing. let me say this. if you were face to face to Dryanta, you would KNOW that this is the truth. and if you ever see him face-to-face to talk about this, or if you dont, in a few short years, when we're all gone, you may know the truth. or you may accept one of the lies, and just forget that we were even here, or that this thread ever existed. that's up to you. i just hope you make the right choice, for your sake.
i just hope we can get the petty crap over with, so we can talk to the other people that are visiting this thread that aren't posting, for whatever reason.

stillakid
05-10-2002, 12:04 AM
Just because an individual believes something vigorously, no matter what the topic, it does not make it automatically true.

Since apparently "proof" is now "petty" "crap," I'll approach this from your side of the court:






Is God omnipotent?

bigbarada
05-10-2002, 12:27 AM
Just have to chime in to state that I stand behind what Dryanta said 100%. I'd like to follow it up with a quote from the Bible


Romans Chapter 1, verses 17-25:

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools,
and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

stillakid
05-10-2002, 12:47 AM
Look! I can quote other books too! :)

"The Ever Present Source thus reveals Eternal Meaning through the medium of time as the resonant chanting of the Arabic Koran so that humanity can awaken and truly understand." (12:1-6)

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thus Lord Krishna declares in the Bhagawad Gita:

"I am the Father- of this Universe. I am the Mother of this universe, and the Creator- of all. I am the Highest to be known, the Purifier, the holy OM, and the three Vedas." (BG 9.17)

---------------------------------------------------------
The Buddha's Four Noble Truths may be described (somewhat simplistically) as:

to be fully understood: the universality of suffering.
to be abandoned: the desire to have and control things which cause. suffering
to be made visible: the supreme truth and final liberation of nirvana which is achieved as the cause of suffering is eliminated. The mind experiences complete freedom and liberation.
to be brought into being: the truth of the eightfold ariya path leading to the cessation of suffering.

His Eightfold Path consists of:

right understanding
right thinking
right speech
right conduct
right livelihood
right effort
right mindfulness
right concentration

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity" Albert Einstein

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this page on the net while randomly searching for info. I found it interesting and enlightening. A true believer who actually wasn't afraid to explore his religion and took the time to research what he thought he believed in -- and came out of it with a realization that changed his life:


http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/testimonials/carrier.html

Tycho
05-10-2002, 01:14 AM
At least no one has beaten me to quoting Howard Stern's book: "Private Parts."

Meanwhile, I have started to pray to God. I do believe He's something, like hope, fulfillment, etc.

So I've started to pray to God for fulfillment of all my adult fantasies. I will post here and tell you how that is working out.

By the way, they almost (seriously not all, just most) go against the 10 Commandments in the books most of you are quoting.

Why am I so wrong though? See if God designed me, then He made me lust after all the things I'm now praying for.

So if He rewards me with them, why can't I take them?

It makes very little sense to make a man thirsty, offer him water, but then tell him to have Honor, he can't drink. He will die without it. I am like the salmon. I have a destiny I both must and desire to have fulfilled.

Personal friends of mine I hope to have in the future are standing bye waiting for the answer to this question as surely as I am the answer to their prayers.

And that is why I won't let the preachers interfere with their interpretations right over the top of my relationship with God, Venus, Aphrodite, or Cupid's Heavenly Father (or Larry Flint's) - whoever She or He may be.

Is it justification for my selfish desires for sin? Well what about the King's selfish desires for power, for war, for the Crusades? What about the priest's selfish desire for a life supported by his congregation's tithings? What about the press that runs to print your Bible's selfish desire for converts who will read it?

In the words of Queensryche:

"Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money it pays

For Selling skin or selling God,
The numbers look the same on a credit card!"

And yes, Larry Flint might manipulate my feelings to sell me what he wants, but only because I could buy in to that desire.

The "Godly" here have bought into theirs.

Yet my God might be your God, and in my relationship with Him, he speaks to me and says it's OK : ROCK ON!

Life is the gift I was given. Make the most of it. Don't use it to deny yourself the experiences you can gain by really living it.

Live morally decently. Give pleasure in exchange for sex. But if life makes you a father, BE a parent in exchange for your right to give new life.

There is a moral code to be subscribed to there. That is the truth the way I see it. And most regard me as a moral, decent, honorable, and truthful person.

I rather like who I am.

bigbarada
05-10-2002, 01:58 AM
Romans chapter 1, verses 28-32:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
who, knowing the righteous judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

bigbarada
05-10-2002, 02:38 AM
Romans chapter 3, verses 23-26:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God has passed over the sins that were previously committed,
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

John chapter 3, verses 16-19:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

stillakid
05-10-2002, 02:40 AM
You could save some time and just reprint the entire thing in one post. Just an idea.

stillakid
05-10-2002, 02:55 AM
On second thought, I already have that book. I don't want you to waste any time unnecessarily. :)

Any thoughts of your own or will it just be Bible-thumpin' from here on out? :confused:


Look at it this way: I remember hearing a store owner asking his employee if he had sold the last customer anything. The employee said that he had. The man had come in for a particular item and had bought it. The employer replied that the employee didn't sell anything at all. The customer had wanted that item anyway so no effort was involved.

Selling something means convincing another person of something that they didn't believe in (think they needed anyway, etc) and getting them to "buy it." If you want to "sell" this idea that the Bible is to be taken literally, that God is the one in the Bible, and any other "zealous" things, then you'll have to use a different "missionary" strategy to do it. C'mon! Be creative. If you had to "convert" someone, what's the best way to do it? Quoting Bible verses over and over? You first have to convince the other guy that the source is valid if you intend on using that tactic. So, if that's proving to be difficult, what other conversion tools could be utilized? JesusFreak "found" several "followers" here already with his initial post. But he bailed out on the missionary objective once he realized that he would actually have to work at it. You can't just throw the idea at people. You have to sell it effectively.

Tycho
05-10-2002, 03:26 AM
This is exactly why I get angry at "true believers."

YOU are attacking ME personally. My desires, my goals, my way of life and how I enjoy it.

Thank you for posting that BigBarada. Let me demonstrate:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

See - somethings wrong with my mind from this quote above.


being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,

see, offering my loving to a girl of my choice is considered immoral, in spite of the fact that waiting until she can sick her divorce attorney on me to take half of everything I've worked for HONESTLY in life, just so I can enjoy biological pleasures in the context of marriage, is NOT worth this Godly Honor or righteousness you describe. Dryanta is divorced or at least without his first woman he had a child with. I don't know about you Big Barada: if you have a girl, are engaged, or are married. But just wait a few years. You'll go through the cycle. 50% of the nation does statistically, and in marriage, you only have 50% control over this. SHE has more than half actually. Jason B. you're too young to understand the battle of the sexes I think.

But consider this: I have friends. I have good friends with common interests. I have NO, ZERO, other need for a girl in my life than for just ONE reason - physical fullfillment. That goes way beyond what you are thinking, and reaches into the best friendship, common interests, intimate knowledge and support for one another's feelings that we so desire in the ideals. But it is very hard to find and get. And virgins in church-ward societies marry far too quickly as they are slaves to their biological urges, and I just nod in sorrow as I watch my friends who waited and weren't actually hypocrites to their faith end their marriages in pain and sorrow. Faith does nothing to heal you from what a woman can do to you. You are a fool for believing that they are pure when they are sexually advantaged over you (it is far easier for a pretty woman to pick up random guys than vice versa) and they learn that, and they learn to lie. They also learn to demand their way, cry, etc. Boys are taught to be men, and that we must sacrafice and suffer - take it like a man. Hmm. I don't abide whiners, but neither do I abide fools.

Marriage is sexual property rights. That's all it is. I will find younger women, thinner women, etc. always more attractive than any aging wife who grows bored of me, and had more "fun" or made more "mistakes" with her sexual life than I did, etc. I will have as many "mistakes" as she, and have every right to them, without letting her strike back again and take half of everything I own, or even worse, throw kids, a custody suit, and child support into the ring.

It is far more likely I will become intimate on a friendship level with a girl who works at the same occupation I do, likes Star Wars and posts online here, or something of that nature. But I am easily led to an attractive girl who offers me only physical attributes that I need to appreciate with my eyes, in order to appreciate my other specific pleasurable functions. Man's eyes are his secondary sexual organs. If they are the cause of infidelity for me, it will not be in the context of marriage, as I take that most seriously. That is because of my HONOR. I will not break commitments and admit I am at fault. I will not be a hypocrite and make commitments I can't keep all because some prophet died on a cross to let me make up excuses for it.

Live with the consequences of your own actions you hypocrites! Jesus does not alleviate you of responsibility for them. You are searching for the easy way out because you don't want to intellectualize your actions at every step of the way - just on Sunday morning. If you are divorced, or have children you did not raise - just shut up! You have no right to speak!

I have figured out how to use a condom since I was a teenager. It's not that hard and the instructions take a lot less time to read than your holy Bible. So what's your excuse? You're looking for it now. All the guys who find God in jail, after divorce, after an overdose...etc. Whatever works for you is fine. But I've done less wrongs in this world than you have, and your religion is attacking ME!

wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

I have never murdered - and while I'm capable of it - my moral compass keeps my anger in check. My maliciousness comes as a response to this Holy attack on my character. I do not hate God. If there is a God, I voice my anger. I judge Him as YOU say he would judge me. That is because YOU are telling me more about God than He or anything else in my life ever has. So He's YOUR God that I'm angry with, regardless of whether or not my wondered of diety is the same Creator God or not.

I am not deceitful, I am totally open and honest and have a whole city that can vouch for my character. Do you? I am a public figure with open political ambitions. I ASK the public to watch me and be mindful of my actions and intentions.

I am proud. I'm earning a right to be!

And my parents never completely earned my respect. The fact that the two of them figured out how to get horizontal long enough to conceive me was nothing notable. Nor is it anything I asked for, or had a say in. My mother's over-protectiveness attempted to stunt my self-confidence. If I don't sound like it, That's because I rebelled. My father's military authoritarianism attempted to make me a follower, obedient. If I don't sound like it, that's because I rebelled. I am stronger than either of my parents in a great many ways - and it is with no thanks to them.

I did take my role models from Star Wars and Star Trek. Because in "real life" there was nobody good enough! YOU preachers are not! So I won't be any better believing what you follow.

Am I angry? (Dryanta always says he's not). Well I AM! I am screaming this at you with both fists clenched and ready to kick your Bible into your head! Believe me, self-control is hard to come by, so my martial arts discipline trained me to honor my sinsei and what he taught me, and I will not act on this instinct. I realize that you are my friends, united in what we call Star Wars fandom. For THAT, I share my love for you. Not for what you believe - that I am evil and poisoned, and some kind of sick or unworthy human being. If I didn't know you and you were on my street corner, downtown by the singles bars, where preachers like to hang out on Saturday nights, I would have THAT MUCH LESS, self control over my violent tendancies. It is a REACTION, not the independent culturing of evil, violent thoughts toward others, etc.


undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

That I do not attack (physically) requires that I am trustworthy of my training per my master, that I forgive you for your assault on my character with your paper words, and that I have mercy and do not prey on the weak who will spend their last moments praying I don't kill them if I lost control.

who, knowing the righteous judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

And then it is for self-defense that I practice delegating who dies first - because it is not for the fascists, the Nazi's, the KKK, the zealots of any kind to deal out death - or they will unlock the restraints on my vengeance - and they will meet their God or know my Hell on earth!

Lord Malakite
05-10-2002, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I have figured out how to use a condom since I was a teenager. It's not that hard and the instructions take a lot less time to read than your holy Bible.

I think this is geting a little too personal. :eek:

Tycho
05-10-2002, 04:07 AM
How so?

This is an inflammatory thread, which while we are respecting each other, it is attacking our beliefs and conduct personally.

If something offends somebody, where is there justice when what someone else quotes in the Bible offends Me?

I will consider editing my thread, but I want an explanation, please.

stillakid
05-10-2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Jason B

i just hope we can get the petty crap over with, so we can talk to the other people that are visiting this thread that aren't posting, for whatever reason.


Tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to frame you for a crime you didn't commit.

Then I'm going to write the details of it into a book which I will declare as Truth.

Since facts are "petty crap" to you, I'll expect that being locked up for the rest of your life is preferable to actually taking the time to prove that you're innocent.

It's a book people. Just a book. If you follow it that "religiously" (no pun intended), then your God isn't God after all...it's that book.

Jedi Teacher
05-10-2002, 09:30 AM
Gentlemen, (and ladies too if there are any that read this thread), I have been away from this place far too long. While I haven't read the 150 or so posts I've missed, I read the past two pages, starting with Dryanta's extended comments. (his post starting with "been an interesting week . . ."

While some of you (Sillakid, Tycho) are asking questions, wanting proof and explanations, I must concur Dryanta's comments. I also commend Big B for posting scripture here.

1) WE (Christians) cannot convince anyone, or force them to convert to Christianity. We can explain what Christianity is, the basics beliefs and how God has worked in our lives. It is God, through the Holy Spirit, that is capable of changing people's minds and hearts. We can also pray for you. I know that is something that I have not done, but I will begin, starting right now. You can mock me if you choose.

God, I pray for those who do not believe in you. I pray specificaly for Stillakid. Father, it was you who created his life and brought him to this place. Father I ask that you would soften his heart. Open his eyes to your glory and help him to realize the Truth of Your existence. Give him faith to believe, to trust and let go of his own control of his life. In Jesus name, Amen.


2) FAITH is a huge factor in Christianity. I will admit that the Stories in the Bible sound crazy. Burning bush? Yeah right. Flood? Ok, whatever.

But what about the little miracles that happen everyday?
Having a business meeting go unexpectedly well?
FInding something you've been missing for a long time?
People getting healed of illnesses (with and without doctors)?

My guess is that these things will be explained away as coincidence, luck, science (the power of man's "knowledge"). But that's just the thing. God can use other people to bring about his good and perfect will.

3) Stillakid, I saw you asked, "Is God omnipotent?" I don't know if anyone has replied yet. In a word, YES! God is All-powerful.

Now, my guess is that you knew one of us would say that, and then you would bring up: Why do bad things happen, if God is all powerful? Why doesn't God stop all of those things?

a) the fact that God doesn't act doesn't mean that He can't (If I choose not to rearrange my furniture, it doesn't mean that I am not capable of doing so.)

b) God has chosen to give us free will. This is an incredibly difficult concept. We can choose to obey God. or not to obey. That is OUR CHOICE. We can choose to murder, rape, steal, lie, live peacefully, pray, read a Bible--- the list never ends! Sadly, some people have chosen evil. Each choice, however, has it's own consequence. Whether the consequence will be experienced here or after death (or both!) is up to God.


4) Jesus loves you. That's how this thread began. He loved YOU so much, that he was willing to die for you. So that each person, if he or she CHOOSES, can experienced eternal life in heaven. The choice is up to you.

Lord Malakite
05-10-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
How so?

This is an inflammatory thread, which while we are respecting each other, it is attacking our beliefs and conduct personally.

If something offends somebody, where is there justice when what someone else quotes in the Bible offends Me?

I will consider editing my thread, but I want an explanation, please.

I'm not talking about the whole thread, just the part about you putting on condoms. The last thing I wanted stuck in my head was a mental image of you wearing only a condom, and sure enough, its stuck in there now. Thanks a lot. :cry:

Its going to take a serious blow to the head to make me forget that.

JetsAndHeels
05-10-2002, 10:47 AM
Ok, its time for me to throw my 2 cents in.
JesusFreak started this thread, and since we havent seen him around much. Stillakid, I know you wanted to ask JesusFreak some questions but havent been able to get the answers from him (assuming its a male).
Maybe he didnt start this thread with the intention of answering a bunch of questions. Perhaps the sole intent of this thread was to witness, and then have us discuss this, as we have for the past couple of weeks. I would say he did his job in that.
The internet is a great tool which we can use for many things. Just look at how all of us have come to know each other on these forums. We would have never come in contact with each other if it wasnt for this. I wouldnt feel the need to log on everyday and catch up on everything. Its a great thing.
JesusFreak did something I had not done-he witnessed. True, this is a SW site, but still we do talk about other things on here. Thats why this is the "General Discussion" forum. Makes sense to me.
So, I commend JesusFreak for starting this thread. He got the idea started, which has opened the door for us to discuss this.
Although he hasnt really stuck around, I think he did us all a favor by bringing it up.

Jason B
05-10-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Since facts are "petty crap" to you, I'll expect that being locked up for the rest of your life is preferable to actually taking the time to prove that you're innocent.

what "facts" and "proof" did you come up with? i didnt see any. you had that email from that friend of yours, but i dont accept that as fact. :rolleyes:

Bosskman
05-10-2002, 11:09 AM
Jesus, Adorable Master, hidden in Thy Sacrament of love, Thou Who remainest by me to sweeten my exile, could I do less than vow myself Thine, in order to console Thee, exiled for my sake? To Thee, Who givest me Thy Heart and They Blood, why not give my heart and all I am? Alas! I give nothing and receive all. I cannot contest the palm of generosity with Thee, but it is true that I love Thee. Deign to accept my poor heart, worth nothing in itself; yet, since Thou lovest it, worth something to Thee. Make of it a good heart, and as such preserve it.
Eucharistc Heart of Jesus, to Thee I consecrate all the faculties of my soul, all the members of my body. I would labor to know Thee and love Thee ever more and more, in order to make Thee and Thy Precious Blood, of which Thou art the chalice, better known and better loved. I consecrate to Thee all the moments of my life; first, in adoration of Thy real Presence; secondly, in thanksgiving for Thine incomparable gift; and thirdly for our cruel indifference to it, and in supplication for our necessities; so that my prayers, offered through, with, and in Thee, may rise pure and fruitful to the throne of divine mercy and contribute to God's eternal glory. Amen.

Lord Malakite
05-10-2002, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Teacher
1) WE (Christians) cannot convince anyone, or force them to convert to Christianity. We can explain what Christianity is, the basics beliefs and how God has worked in our lives. It is God, through the Holy Spirit, that is capable of changing people's minds and hearts. We can also pray for you. I know that is something that I have not done, but I will begin, starting right now. You can mock me if you choose.

God, I pray for those who do not believe in you. I pray specificaly for Stillakid. Father, it was you who created his life and brought him to this place. Father I ask that you would soften his heart. Open his eyes to your glory and help him to realize the Truth of Your existence. Give him faith to believe, to trust and let go of his own control of his life. In Jesus name, Amen.


2) FAITH is a huge factor in Christianity. I will admit that the Stories in the Bible sound crazy. Burning bush? Yeah right. Flood? Ok, whatever.

But what about the little miracles that happen everyday?
Having a business meeting go unexpectedly well?
FInding something you've been missing for a long time?
People getting healed of illnesses (with and without doctors)?

My guess is that these things will be explained away as coincidence, luck, science (the power of man's "knowledge"). But that's just the thing. God can use other people to bring about his good and perfect will.

3) Stillakid, I saw you asked, "Is God omnipotent?" I don't know if anyone has replied yet. In a word, YES! God is All-powerful.

Now, my guess is that you knew one of us would say that, and then you would bring up: Why do bad things happen, if God is all powerful? Why doesn't God stop all of those things?

a) the fact that God doesn't act doesn't mean that He can't (If I choose not to rearrange my furniture, it doesn't mean that I am not capable of doing so.)

b) God has chosen to give us free will. This is an incredibly difficult concept. We can choose to obey God. or not to obey. That is OUR CHOICE. We can choose to murder, rape, steal, lie, live peacefully, pray, read a Bible--- the list never ends! Sadly, some people have chosen evil. Each choice, however, has it's own consequence. Whether the consequence will be experienced here or after death (or both!) is up to God.


4) Jesus loves you. That's how this thread began. He loved YOU so much, that he was willing to die for you. So that each person, if he or she CHOOSES, can experienced eternal life in heaven. The choice is up to you.

You know what, you guys should take a course in Philosophy. They get into a lot of neat stuff. The mind-body problem, the problem of other minds, the problem of evil. Is God omnipotent? I don't think so. Can God create a boulder that he can't lift? If you answer yes, he can't be omnipotent because he can't lift the boulder. If you answer no, he can't be omnipotent because he can't create a boulder that he can't lift. Is god omnibenevolent? I would also say no, and this comes directly from the Bible. Just read the Book of Job. God made a bet with the devil and destroyed a man's life to win it. For him to do that would mean that either he didn't know the outcome of the bet, which would mean that God is not omniscient, or that he was well aware that he would crush this man, which would mean that God is not omnibenevolent. So God can't be all perfect, he is flawed. I think the simplest answer that solves all these problems is that he simply dosen't exist. There is nothing after death, we simply cease to exist. :happy:

Like Tycho, I too find it annoying when people start quoting the Bible and start praying for me in an attempt to convert me. I've even had a priest come over and try to convert me because his daughter, a student, didn't like what I had to say about the church in a paper I wrote for an English class. My response, I made him watch me play Mortal Kombat. Needless to say, he left horrified.

If by some chance I'm wrong and he does exist, I know I'm heading towards that warm place. You know what, I couldn't care less. I'd actually be a lot happier. For him to destroy people to win bets and have people offer their children as sacrafices to prove their loyalty, God is pretty screwed up in my opinion. I'd put him right up there with Hitler. The only difference between the two, God is more powerful. So you can easily dismiss what he does as contributing to some sort mysterious cause, where with Hitler you can't. So I would much rather go to the opposite place, because to me he is nothing more than a tyrant pretending to be a saint or a wolf in sheep's clothing and I don't want to worship or have anything else to do with someone like that. :mad:

Of course, as I said before, thats only my opinion. :)

Jedi Teacher
05-10-2002, 12:23 PM
I've heard the "boulder" dillema. It's about as interesting as "If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it does it make a sound?"

The book of Job. Now THERE's something interesting. Thank you for bringing that up, Lord_Malekite. The book of Job is not simply some bet. It is a book about faith and evil in the world. The devil's premise is that the only reason Job worships God is because God has blessed him tremendously. Take all that away, (says the devil) and Job will cuse God.

So the "bet" as you call it proceeds. Job loses his wealth. No cursing. Job loses his family. No cursing. Job gets afflicte with horrible diseases. No cursing.

His "friends" come over to counsel him. Their conclusion: You did something that ****ed off God. Confess and all this will disappear. But Job cannot think of anything to confess. Finally, Job gets so frustrated that he asks God, "Why is all of this happening? What did I do?" (Note: no cursing was involved, only questioning!) God responds to Job by demanding that he first answer some of God's impossible questions. And then Job realizes: God is God, and he is in control. I might not understand it, but I trust and believe it. And in the END OF THE STORY: Job was blessed by God even MORE than he was in the beginning of the story. He had a long life, more kids and incredible wealth.

Jonna
05-10-2002, 01:10 PM
I am not a Catholic, but I do hold the belief that there is something much larger than myself and agree with you on many points Bosskman.

Let him without sin cast the first stone.

Lord Malakite
05-10-2002, 01:15 PM
One of the problems with the book of Job is that it has been tampered with by the church at much later time after its initial release. It was originally supposed to end this way:
35 ("Oh, that I had someone to hear me!
I sign now my defense-let the Almighty answer me;
let my accuser put his indictment in writing.
36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder,
I would put it on like a crown.
37 I would give him an account of my every step;
like a prince I would approach him.)-

38 "if my land cries out against me
and all its furrows are wet with tears,
39 if I have devoured its yield without payment
or broken the spirit of its tenants,
40 then let briers come up instead of wheat
and weeds instead of barley."

The words of Job are ended.


Later on (about 200 years) the church added the rest to the book of Job to make God look good. You can tell very easily because the style of the writing changes dramatically after that, as if someone else is writing it. Another way to tell that it was added on later is that Elihu's character magically appears out of thin air to defend God, but he is made to appear as if he has been there the whole time. The third and final way to tell that it was added on later is that Elihu basically tells Job the same exact thing as one of the neighbors did earlier, but makes it look like nobody has told Job this yet (an oversight by the new writer).

Jonna
05-10-2002, 01:30 PM
I believe that one of the reasons that the condom thing is seen as unexceptable is because people are always going to have sex wheither you tell them to or not. It is just human nature. But if a group is creating more offspring, by not using condoms, then the size of that group grows along with the passing on of its beliefs. And if one would want to spread their beliefs, it is easiest to condition a person from birth instead of converting them later. Why else do you thing the Catholic religion would be so large when it is based so largely on guilt and forgiveness.

Dryanta
05-10-2002, 02:08 PM
hey guys,
I had some quiet time this morning and took a couple pretty good blows.
I commented earlier in a post I believed that i was here for someone.I got my confirmation this morning.It's you stillakid.I have been in prayer for you from the start.Your place in life has been the cause of sleepness nights.Why?Lack of faith.
I now know you are the reason this whole thing started,I really do think you are searching,And everything you need has been said.I leave you to the hands of God at this point.
The holy spirit is the agent of conversion not man and his words or opinion.I believe he's already there and has been for a long while.All I can do is pray for you to get the proof you need and request.You'll get it.Myself and jedi teacher are in agreement in praying for you.
Jesus said "If two of you agree agree on earth concerning anything,it shall be done for you by my father who is in heaven"I also know it's not his will that any should perish.So our prayer is perfectly in the will of God.The life you live now is almost over.By faith I can say that.I hope I'm here long enough to see it.I may not,I don't know.
I am also in prayer for your wife and kids.How could I not be?
If this upsets you.I can't say I'm sorry.The conviction by the Holy Spirit and eventuall rebirth is very painfull.And takes time.That is the best I can do for you my friend.Be obedient.
I'm leaving now,This is really pointless.I cannot convince anybody of anything.I can't prove the Bible is the word of God,I can't prove any of the things I tell you concerning Him.Only He can and I know He will.
I am doing what I should have done long ago,leave you all in His hands,and Pray.I have been and will continue to.If the Holy spirit moves, you all have the information for need.
I ask all of my fellow christians to be in prayer for Stillakid by name.Best I can do guys.My words,education(or lack of it),emotions opinions,have absolutely no power at all.I am a man not God.His on the other hand are the most powerful thing known to man.Because it backed up by Him.
"heaven and Earth shall pass away,but My word will never pass away" and lastly "I am the same yesterday,today and forever"

Bosskman
05-10-2002, 02:12 PM
Paschal Proclamation
Let now the hosts of heaven's Angels rejoice: let the mysteries of God be joyfully celebrated: and let a trumpet of Salvation sound for the victory of so great a king. Let the earth too be filled with joy illuminated with such light; and let it know that the darkness of the whole world is driven away by the brightness of the spleandor of the Eternal King. Let mother Church too rejoice, adorned with the rays of so great a light, and let this temple resound with the mighty voices of the people. Wherefore, beloved brethren, who behold the wondrous brightness of this light, I beseech you, invoke with me the mercy of Almighty God. That He who deigned, through no merrits of mine, to enrol me among the number of His Levites, may by the pouring forth of His light upon me, fulfil the praise of this candle. Through our Lord Jesus Christ His Son, who with Him and the Holy Ghost, liveth and reigneth, for ever and ever. Amen.
It is truly meet and just, with all the affection of heart and mind and with resounding voice, to proclaim the invisible God, the Father Almighty, and His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. He paid for us to His Eternal Father the debt of Adam, and by His sacred Blood washed away the guilt of original sin. For this is the Paschal Feast in which that true Lamb is slain, by Whose Blood the doors of the faithful are consecrated. This is the night on which formerly Thou brought forth out of Egypt our fathers, the children of Israel and led them dry-shod across the Red sea. This is the night which scattered the darkness of sin by the pillar of fire. This is the night on which now over all the world those that believe in Christ are delivered from the vices of the world and the darkness of sin, are restored to grace and united to sanctity. This is the night on which Christ broke the chains of death and ascended victoriously from hell. For it availed us nothing to be born unless it hath availed us to be redeemed. O admirable lavishing of Thy goodness to us! O untold excess of love; that to redeem a slave Thou delivered up Thy Son! O Truly necessary sin of Adam, that was blotted out by the death of Christ! O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer! O truly blessed night which alone deserved to know the time and the hour in which Christ rose again from hell! This is the night about which is written: And the night shall be lightsome as the day: And the night is my illumination in my delights. The sanctification of this night drives away crimes, cleanses faults, restores innocence to sinners and joy to the sorrowful. It banishes hates, engenders concord and humbles empires.
For this night, then, receive, Holy Father, the evening sacrifice of light which Holy Church presents to Thee, through the hands of her ministers, by offering this candle made out of the work of bees. But now we know the tidings of this pillar which the bright fire has li in God's honor.
Which fire, though divided in parts suffers no loss from the communication of its light, because it is fed from the mlted wax which the mother bee produced for the substance of this precious lamp.
O truly blessed night, which despoiled the Egyptians, and enriched the Hebrews. Night in which are joined earth and heaven, God and man. We pray, therefore, Lord, that this candle consecrated in Thy name to destroy the darkness of this night may continue unfailing. And may it may it be accepted as a savour of sweetness and united with the heavenly lights. May this morning star find its flames, that morning star which knows no setting, which being returned from hell shone brightly on mankind. We pray Thee, then, Lord, to grant peace in these paschal joys to us Thy servants, to all Thy ministers and devout people, together with our most Holy Father the Pope and our Bishop and to deign with Thy constant protection to rule, govern and preserve us. Look also upon those, who govern us with authority and by the ineffable gifts of Thy love and mercy, guide their thoughts towards justce and peace that their activity on earth may bring them together with all Thy people to our heavenly home. Through the same Jesus Christ Our Lord Thy Son, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God for ever and ever. Amen.

Tycho
05-10-2002, 04:58 PM
I can't believe there was all this scripture quoting, but no one responded to me and told me why I'm evil.

I don't bet on people's loyalty, mess with them by testing it, and threaten to throw them into fire, or endless torture. I also don't claim to set up a morality system that preaches respect for simplicity, then torture somebody (Job) and then reward him with material wealth and sexual gratification (marriages / children).

Instead, (to Lord Malkalite) only certain girls who WANT to see me only wearing a condom (and I am in good shape, so some would say that's my best outfit - while I'm responding to that INSULT rather than trying to be provocative inappropriately here), I have NOT gotten them pregnant, have tried to be their loving boyfriend who is there for them, and had no evil intent. Rather myself and my partners share mutual gratification, and that requires respect and love. Since I don't have any murder victims and I'm not dead yet, that part of sin (which is mostly sex and violence prohibitions in the 10 Commandments) I am entirely innocent of. My desires are lustful I admit. But my heart knows no anger or hatred toward my partners. If I have seemed jaded or resentful towards women (or ex-girlfriends in particular) it has been because I have been the honorable one in a relationship and they have exploited their attractiveness to live like swingers. I merely am reacting to reality when I state that the opposite sex is innocent of nothing. But I harbor no plans to hurt them, emotionally or otherwise. And I'm up front and honest about my feelings, so no they don't think I'm easy "marriage material." In my world, a girl would have to work long and hard and prove herself to get me to commit and marry her. I have no intentions of marrying just because "it is what I am supposed to do." And since I can control my reproduction in spite of being active in certain ways, I am not hurting my children. I don't have any. Rather I hold strong beliefs that I must be a constant father to them if they should come. The fact that for 6 years I've been a volunteer BigBrother speaks a lot of the fact that Yes I can take responsibility for a child. My little brother is entering college now! And yes I am proud. Plus we are friends and going to see Spiderman this weekend - with his girlfriend and a lady friend of mine.

But no one here wants to do anything but quote scripture. Yet you want to convert me. I assume. You don't pray for me, but you do for Stillakid. Yet you know I don't entirely believe in the existence of God and I pray to Him for worldly gratifications that you "enjoy" finding reasons to forbid yourself from (in your holy book, etc). God didn't tell me to forbid myself from that. You did. But you won't respond to me except to quote scripture. But you wouldn't be doing that unless you judge me to be EVIL. So I'm asking you: am I evil? Am I a bad person? Then why shouldn't I give in to my impulses and release my anger? Why shouldn't it be learned if my frustration will be purged with blood on my hands? Truthfully, that doesn't sound like me. I sin by your definition, but I do so with love on my hands by my definition. And that is what feels most right to me, and should be so as well for the girl who can appreciate it.

Lord Malakite
05-10-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Instead, (to Lord Malkalite) only certain girls who WANT to see me only wearing a condom (and I am in good shape, so some would say that's my best outfit - while I'm responding to that INSULT rather than trying to be provocative inappropriately here), But no one here wants to do anything but quote scripture. Yet you want to convert me. I assume. You don't pray for me, but you do for Stillakid. Yet you know I don't entirely believe in the existence of God and I pray to Him for worldly gratifications that you "enjoy" finding reasons to forbid yourself from (in your holy book, etc). God didn't tell me to forbid myself from that. You did. But you won't respond to me except to quote scripture. But you wouldn't be doing that unless you judge me to be EVIL. So I'm asking you: am I evil? Am I a bad person? Then why shouldn't I give in to my impulses and release my anger? Why shouldn't it be learned if my frustration will be purged with blood on my hands? Truthfully, that doesn't sound like me. I sin by your definition, but I do so with love on my hands by my definition. And that is what feels most right to me, and should be so as well for the girl who can appreciate it.

You spelled my name wrong Tycho. :D

As for that so called insult. If you couldn't tell, I was joking with you. Sometimes I forget how up tight people can be when you kid them. As for you being evil, you are not. In fact, I'm with you on this whole God issue.

By the way, feel free to kid (insult) me in the same manner if you wish. I don't mind. I do it to myself all the time. :)

Tycho
05-10-2002, 06:26 PM
No, no, no, no, no. We're cool Lord Malakite. Hope I spelled it right this time. "Malkalite" must be some new low-calorie beer or low-luminescence mood lighting, LOL.

But still no one 'hollier than thou" has responded to me as to why I am evil. If THEY really think I am evil.

I know what the THEY say THEIR BIBLE says. I don't think that's what God says. But THEY believe what's in their Bible, so they have to interpret that either:

1) I, Tycho, am an evil Hell-bound person

or

2) the rules apply to everyone else except for me.

The latter would be convenient, but I don't think I would be singularly special in regards to that last comment. So therefore the question remains.

"AM I EVIL?"

JediTricks
05-10-2002, 07:51 PM
Ok, we're done. I've been skimming this thread ever since it came up, my instincts were to simply close it before the big battle erupted but I let it go because these forums have been fairly tame since their rebirth nearly a year ago - no major battles or flame wars and that's a good thing.

However, this thread has deteriorated into too much singling out individuals for their beliefs, posts consisting of nothing but biblical quotes, showing disrespect of others' viewpoints, and a lot of anger that I don't want to see lead to more severe problems. I am not singling out any one forumite, but never the less, this thread should not continue along the path it is heading down and is now closed. Neither SSG nor myself is getting into the middle of this issue beyond this action, we aren't taking sides, just keeping these forums running as smoothly as possible while remaining within the contexts of being an "all ages" site.

---

Religion is a very difficult subject to discuss because the core remains one of the most personal issues to any one individual, yet discussing religion requires thrusting one's personal views into a forum for all to see to allow the possibility of misinterpretation or disagreement with (or worse). It's been my personal opinion that one's religious choices should really be kept somewhat private and that he or she should express those choices by living their lives the best way they can by their personal beliefs rather than hoisting them upon others to embrace. I suggest to all parties who have vested interest in this thread that they reflect upon their choices and actions in here and if they want to further their discussions with other individuals, that they do so in private.

Finally, my own personal views are that it is far too common for man to kill in the name of someone rather than live by one's ideals; such is the tragedy of mankind, such is the burden placed upon us that we must strive to shed before we place it upon future generations. -JT