PDA

View Full Version : Jesus Loves You



Pages : [1] 2

JesusFreak
04-22-2002, 11:45 AM
It's true [John 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=3&startv=16&endv=16&version=nas&Go.x=17&Go.y=15)]. He died as a ransom for sin to pay the price that we couldn't pay [Romans 3:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=3&startv=23&endv=23&version=nas&Go.x=16&Go.y=12)]. Because the penalty for sin is death [eternal punishment], but the gift of God, His Son, is everlasting life [Romans 6:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&startv=23&endv=23&version=kjv&Go.x=16&Go.y=3)]. The Bible says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved [Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=10&startv=9&endv=10&version=nas&Go.x=13&Go.y=4)] [1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=15&startv=3&endv=4&version=nas&Go.x=27&Go.y=11)]. But we cannot earn this gift in any way, it's by God's grace that we receive it[Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=2&startv=8&endv=9&version=nas&Go.x=26&Go.y=7)]. If you believe these things, that you are a sinner, in need of a Savior. That Jesus Christ came to earth and shed His blood by dying on a Cross for your forgiveness, and has been raised again. Then you must repent, God died for you, just confess your sins and have faith in Jesus and receive the gift of salvation.

God, I know I'm a sinner in need of a Savior. I know that I could never repay the debts for my sins, and that you died on the cross and rose again as my atonement for sins. Please forgive me. I give up my life to you. Please cleanse my heart. I ask that you come into my life and be my Lord and Savior. In Jesus name, Amen.

If you truly believed what you just said then you are now born again [2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=5&startv=17&endv=17&version=rsv&Go.x=6&Go.y=11)]. You are now a new creation in Christ, bought by His blood, but, now what?

The Bible says to grow in your faith you should...

Read the Bible daily (BlueLetterBible.org (http://www.blueletterbible.org) is a site that has the entire Bible up for reading.)
Pray to God
Visit a Church for fellowship with fellow believers
Tell others about this great gift you've been given [Matthew 28:19-20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=28&startv=19&endv=20&version=nas&Go.x=27&Go.y=8)].
Just, follow God, he is the way, truth, and life [John 14:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&startv=6&endv=6&version=nas&Go.x=27&Go.y=10)].

Feel free to contact me any time you want with questions/comments (bashes), [Matthew 5:11-12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&startv=11&endv=12&version=nas&Go.x=12&Go.y=16)]. My email address is JesusFreak2940@yahoo.com.

See y'all and God bless! :)

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 11:53 AM
I admire what you are doing here, JesusFreak. I am a Christian too, but lately I have slipped up some along the way. But I am only human, and it happens. Although I am not the Christian that God wants me to be sometimes, I know all is forgiven and I am still a child of God.
Thanks for posting this. Its good to see someone else believes the same.

JesusFreak
04-22-2002, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the support dude. We all slip up sometimes, but that's what makes God's grace abound all the more :)

Jedi Teacher
04-22-2002, 12:09 PM
I too am a Christian.

I slip up, just like everyone else--and God still forgives me! Now that IS amazing grace!
Thanks for the posts Jesus Freak & JangoFett 96!
I wonder how many other Christians are on here?


Just curious, Jesus Freak, but are you a Star Wars fan also? There's plenty of great Star Wars stuff here for you if you are!

stillakid
04-22-2002, 12:11 PM
Everybody needs to believe in something, Jesusfreak. Seeing by your post that you are such an expert scholar in the teachings of the Bible, I'm copying a letter that I received through my email that concerns this topic. It is addressed to Dr. Laura Schlessinger, but you two seem to have a lot of education in common. Any thoughts?

__________________________________

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident and now
posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to
be an abomination. End of debate.


I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with any woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jim


_________________________________________

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 12:11 PM
Thats great, Jedi Teacher.
I am sure there are more, we just havent really discussed it here.
Hopefully this thread will keep growing!!

2-1B
04-22-2002, 12:29 PM
Bravo stillakid, nothin' like a literal interpretation to get us thinking! :) I'll be saving that for future reference.

I'm a Catholic, does that count as being a Christian? See, I always used to think so but I hear more and more from other Christians about how goofy Catholics are. Oh, I have some issues with it alright, but there's plenty of criticism to go around. :)

And what is with the gay bashing in religion? Man, I'm so tired of going to rock concerts to only be bothered by zealots outside screaming to me about the evils of fornication, homosexuality, and abortion. huh? Who has less abortions than homosexuals? I even agree with them on the abortion thing, but c'mon let's be a little more tactful. Jeez, after Matthew Shepard was murdered I saw "religious" websites with real time counters on how long he's been in hell. Oh, I'm sorry, that assertion is made with the disclaimer that it's based on the assumption he didn't repent before he died. :rolleyes: I thought there was a good book floating around there about not judging others lest you be judged.

Whatever.

(that rant is not directed at any of you in particular, so don't take it that way. :) )

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 12:38 PM
Some Christians make the faith look bad, I must admit. When I was in my first year of college (a strict Baptist college) a friend of mine who had long hair was told by another student he was going to hell for it. This made me so mad, and so ashamed to be a Christian. He has long hair and likes heavy metal, so he is going to hell? How ridiculous!! Didnt Jesus have shoulder length hair? Anyway I am a Christian, but I do NOT participate in any kind of hatred towards a group or affiliation. Hate is not part of our beliefs, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. That is why the Christian faith irritates me sometimes, and I have argued with other Christians over the same thing.

Wolfwood319
04-22-2002, 12:43 PM
That letter is really great Stillakid. I think that definately brings up lots of good points about religious scripture, though. Not to start a theological debate/flame war, but I think as a society we need to re-evaluate a lot of what we call religion.

Beliefs are a very powerful thing. But beliefs based on written words are another. I know a lot of very hard-core Christians who would do all the Church functions, protest just about everything not conservative, tell other people how to live their lives or why they are going to Hell, etc. Funny thing was, they never read the whole bible as much as I can tell. You can believe in whatever you want, but don't follow it blindly. Know what your saying/believing in.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 12:47 PM
I am a christian as well,Just one who has a lot of difficulties.Stillakid ,I appreciate your post and can understand any confusion about certain things.Can I answer these questions?Not all no.But I'm not god either.I know in terms of society,things were different in the Old Testiment(contract) with god.Things are somewhat different now after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ,new testiment(contract).
I'm glad this is truely a place were we can all talk about these things without getting nasty.We all have a choice to make concerning these things and no one should be attacked for sharing ideas.

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 12:55 PM
I agree Wolfwood. That is why I have never claimed to know everything about the Christian faith and what is in the Bible. I know lots of folks who would judge and criticize so quickly yet when they slip up its ok. Well its not ok by me. You can hate the act, but dont hate the person.

JEDIpartner
04-22-2002, 01:25 PM
I am definitely a Christian and I am definitely gay. I have a problem when someone says I'm going to hell. I attended a Bible class once where the preacher said the only sin a homosexual person commits is the sin of sex outside of a Holy Union (marriage). I was intrigued by this. He said, that since that is the REAL case and doesn't fall under the myriad of interpretations of Verses in Scripture, we are ALL pretty much guilty of that.

Anyhow... I don't like the word "religious". It smacks of man-made laws or the "we say what is right and wrong" church rules. I prefer to say I am a "spiritual" person. God only wanted us to live together as one in His family and to honour Him (Holy Trinity). I have definitely accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour... but one thing I don't believe in is flag waving. I believe that one's true devotion to God and Jesus can be found in one's actions- that is where spirituality can be found. It is easier to bring people to understanding faith and devotion when one shows examples of God's loving will. That same pastor, years later (I continued going to the Bible class) said that if we are all open and loving and allow Him to work though us, we would be the greatest means of spreading the Word and His Way. People tend to get so caught up in Mosaic Law that they don't even consider where many of these "rules" came from... they were to keep order where there may have been chaos. The New Testament shows the changes to many of those damning laws due to Christ's greatest gift of everlasting life. Confess your sins and accept Jesus as your personal saviour... end of story.

I believe that is true.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 01:32 PM
the greatest witness is your actions.Jedipartner hit it right on the head with that one.I believe what the bible says.It's not a particular sin because (we are all guilty)that determines your eternal destination but what you choose do with the sacrifice of Christ.

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 01:36 PM
Well said, JEDIpartr. Since you mentioned the gay issue, I had a good friend in college who was a homosexual. He liked SW and Star Trek and stuff, so we got along pretty well. We all used to hang out in the same circle of friends, so I got pretty comfortable around him. Of course I am straight, but I didnt mind having a gay friend. I saw him for who he was, not his sexual preference. Anyway, I used to take alot of heat from certain people because they felt it was wrong for me to associate with him. Once again something about the Christian faith that annoys me. But I learned a valuable lesson from all that-We are all God's people, no matter what sexual preference, race, nationality,etc. So personally I dont care what others say. If I become friends with a person, its because of who they are inside, not what they appear like outside.

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 01:41 PM
I'm a Catholic and, while I know that things that people do are sinful, I also know that I commit many sins as well. It really bugs me when these right wing political groups use religion to back up their political stance on things. I think it gives Christianity a bad name. It also bugs me when people pick parts out of the Bible, warp them out of context, and use them for their own agenda. I know that anyone who really loves God and sincerely tries to live life as best they can with what they have and what they know, God will not foget it. Everybody stumbles and relapses into sin, it's part of living this life. God doesn't send people to Hell, people choose to go there of their own volition, and I know that there are people who end up there for what they do in this life. But only God can judge us because He is the only one who knows the whole story. For anybody in this world to say someone else is gonna go to Hell for doing certain things they are being hippocritical. Nobody is perfect and when people make statements like that they're putting themselves in a position that only God occupies. Christ came to save us all, not man in general but each one of us individually. It was the sins of each one of us that crucified Him. Therefore, none of us are in any position to condemn anybody else. I think people should spend more time trying to save their own souls, pray for others, and try to live by example, rather than tell everybody else how they're going to Hell. That's all I'm gonna say about that.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 01:44 PM
So Jedipartner is gay.
I am a person who is violent at heart.I also get a sinful rush out seeing back down from because of my size and apperance.Pure ego and not even the real me anymore.Old habits die terribly hard.If you are willing to get over my short comings I'll do the same for any of you.Deal with me for what and where I am.I'm getting better I promise:)

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 01:53 PM
Speaking about the gay thing, JEDIpartner is right, committing a homosexual act is no worse than committing a heterosexual act outside of marriage. (I think in most cases, the LATTER probably is worse), Sin is putting our selves ahead of God. In terms of sex we are ALL guilty of that. I don't have any close homosexual friends but I know some people who are homosexuals and I don't see them as any more or less sinful than myself or anyone else I know when it comes to sex.

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 01:56 PM
Agreed. We are all human, and we are all made the same by God. No one is any better than anyone else.

stillakid
04-22-2002, 01:57 PM
In terms of believing what the Bible says:

I once found myself deep inside a discussion with someone about religion/the Bible/etc. Only after it was too late, did I realize that I was speaking with a "born-again" Christian. Frequent references to scripture were used to "back-up" claims of one sort or another.

I took this opportunity as a challenge. I was in High School at the time and just so happened to have a paper due for an English class is which the topic was to be "argumentative." I chose to disprove the literal interpretation of the Bible. It really isn't all that difficult once you open up the parts pertaining to Noah's Ark. There are others, but the math involved and clearly stated in those passages is not open to fuzzy interpretation. Suffice it to say, I proved my point (to my Jesuit English teacher, no less and got an A on it.

I sent it off to my "discussion mate." The reply: a copy of a book by C.S. Lewis and an accompanying letter which ended by stating that while "God's work is mysterious" or something to that end, "with God, all things are possible." With that kind of attitude guiding this person's reasoning, then in her universe, 2+2 does not have to equal 4. How can you reason with someone who refuses to use logic? Right, you can't.

People like this believe what they want to believe, then use portions of information (ie, the Bible) that back up what they want you to hear, conveniently ignoring the rest. That makes for a very shaky belief structure.

So, I'm not here trying to convince anyone to give up their beliefs based upon logical and scientific facts to the contrary (that's what the concept of faith is all about), but when somebody steps up to the plate and starts quoting John, Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Matthew, and John, it would be nice to know that he has done full research into his religious beliefs and isn't afraid to delve deeper and find the unpleasant truths that would probably rock that faith from it's almighty perch. Doing what you're told is easy...questioning your faith is hard.

Eternal Padawan
04-22-2002, 02:03 PM
I think there is a special place in Heaven (if you subscribe to the idea of an afterlife) for gays. They have got to be one of the most persecuted groups on the planet. Jesus has to love them more than he does a lot of other people. Bigots, racists, hypocrites...those are the intolerants headed for the fiery depths.

I don't subscribe to a specific religion, but I believe a higher power created the world. Do I think we should worship him at the expense of relying on each other for the betterment of mankind? No. I don't think God is petty enough to worry about whether people are gay or straight, black, white, Chinese, Indian, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Catholic, or anything else. If he WAS that petty, I don't think the bum is worth worshipping.

I don't believe in the bible either, other than it's a great work of fiction written 2000 years ago by a bunch of people afraid of their own mortality. They had some good, solid no brainers in there ("Thou Shalt Not Kill"...DUH!:crazy:) and I think Jesus was a groovy kind of guy with his teachings, but most of the stuff in the bible is hokum (as attested to by Stiilakid's witty letter ;))

In recap: Gays are cool. Intolerant people are bad. Higher Power, yes. Bible, no.

May the Force be with you. :)

2-1B
04-22-2002, 02:03 PM
I've never totally understood the "Jesus dying for MY sins" thing. I am not being arrogant here, just pondering the fact that this all happened approx. 2000 years ago, approx. 1976 years before I was born. Sorry, but I never had the chance of being perfect to begin with, so it seems kinda guilt-trippy to be blaming me for Christ's death. I'm not firm either way on that issue, just specualting here for your review. :)

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 02:07 PM
I've always had a problem with the who "better" argument Jango. I know that we are all born equal, but sin destroys that equality. The worse sins one commits, the more damage it causes his or her soul. Christ can wash our sins away but I don't think he equalises us. For example, someone who lives a mostly holy life (a real one not just one that's outwardly holy) and then dies vs someone who commits a lifetime of murderous rampages and then repents on his death bed. I've heard the analogy of the soul as a cup. The more sin eats away at the soul, the smaller the cup gets. In the end God's grace, however, can fill it, but some people have more than others. Even though the cups are different sizes, they are all full. Still, that has more to do with Heaven than with Earth and I don't think any one of us here can back up a claim he's better than anyone else.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 02:12 PM
Good quetion cesar.Jesus provided the perfect sacrifice in the eyes of the Father.Once and for all.He did say " He knew you before the foundations of the earth".Would it be better if he were to die for every generation?Or is it better he did once for anyone who will accept him?Even you, 1976 years before you were even born!
Talk about "having your back".You were born into sin or with a sin nature just like the rest of us.I personally find peace in the fact that it was taken care of before I even showed up.Hope it helps

Mandalorian Candidat
04-22-2002, 02:15 PM
I heard this joke once in church. I couldn't believe the guy actually said it because our church is pretty reverent in the meetings (we don't have any bands or guitar playing or people yelling 'AMEN!' to the speaker).

These three kids wanted to get baptized so they go down to the local church. No one is there except for the janitor, but he tells the kids he'll baptize them. So he takes them into the bathroom, grabs them by the legs, and sticks their heads into the toilet.

The kids walk out of the church wondering what religion they are now. One kid says, "I know we're not Catholic, because they sprinkle you."

Another one says, "I know we're not Baptist, because they dunk you."

The third kid says, "I smelled that water! We must be ****copalians (episcopalians)."

Anyone else hear something wacky like that in church?

Eternal Padawan
04-22-2002, 02:16 PM
Stillakid:) I had an argument ("discussion" ;)) about that very thing with my friend's mom. She was trying to convince me that evolution was bunk.
"If there was no evolution, then all the animals on the planet have been here since the beginning? God made them?" I asked.
"Right" she said.
"Then in order to hold all the variations of species and enough food to feed them all for 40 days of floods, the Ark would have had to have been like six square miles and weighed an astronomical tonnage, much more than would logically be able to float on water without displacing it all the way to the bottom of the ocean."

Then she said that the Earth was only 6000 years old according to the bible.

"But Carbon testing has proven..." I started.

"HA! Carbon 14 testing is only accurate up to 10,000 years!" she exclaimed. "Nobody(meaning those scientist type people) knows how old the earth really is!"

"Well, how do you explain the 'accurate' tests 4000 years before the Earth was 'made'?" I wondered aloud. "Or all the miles of rock BENEATH the 10,000 year old 'accurately' tested rock?"

Didn't somebody also prove that all those guys that supposedly lived for 600-700 years each and their offspring lived for that long...if that were true, isn't one of them technically still alive if you do the math? or maybe hasn't been born yet. I thought I read that somewhere, too. :rolleyes:

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 02:16 PM
Caesar, I've thought about the same thing myself but I had it explaned to me that, since Christ is everyone's PERSONAL Savior, everybody played a part in his crucifixion. If we were not siners we would have no need of a savior. It's hard to explain really but it's got a lot to do with Christ's divine knowledge of us. He knew, way back then, as he does now, and as he ever will, the sins of each and every one of us. As a Catholic, I believe that His sacrifice is not simply an act that occured 2000 years ago but one that is continuously renewed with every Mass throughout the world. It's not something that I can easily explain with words but I think that's where faith comes in.

2-1B
04-22-2002, 02:20 PM
Cool Dryanta, thanks for the perspective. I guess my question roots itself in (what I believe to be the myth of) the whole Adam and Eve story. See, those two folks apparantly WERE perfect, and they gave it up; hence "we" are born with "their" sin. It doesn't make sense to me - give me the same scenario and maybe I wouldn't have eaten that apple. :D

Cheers to everyone for keeping this thread civil. :)

One thing I believe for certain, and I hope most of you can agree with me, is . . . . .


*ahem*


Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter! :D :D :D

Jargo
04-22-2002, 02:26 PM
I'm reading this thread and there's comments about 'homosexuals'. Comments that still carry the inference that being gay is a sickness of the mind. What ****es me off more than anything with the religion versus gay issue is that everyone and every point is always pivoted on the actual sexual act. It never crosses anyone's mind then that to be gay is not necessarily to have penetrative sex but to meet with another person as an equal and to live as a union in harmony and with all the love that any couple share but without the actual sexual act. It never occurs to anyone that the sexual act is not the reason to be with someone but simply a fleeting thing the same as with any relationship, it happens and it's good or bad as an experience but it is not the be all and end all or defining aspect of a gay relationship.

stillakid
04-22-2002, 02:33 PM
I think that essentially what I'm trying to say is that if you want me to "live my life right," whatever that means, you'll do much better by simply leading by example than by trying to ram the message down people's throats with an intangible and unprovable device, like God. Next time you crack that Bible open, I'm pretty sure you'll find that advice scattered just about everywhere that Jesus is mentioned.

2-1B
04-22-2002, 02:39 PM
Jargo, I think the only sickness of mind involved here is the fact that some people still believe that gays are somehow dysfunctional people. I fully support gay marriage and wish more people would be accepting of it. A close gay relative of mine has been in the same relationship for 10+ years, and it appears that it's a near perfect union. If that isn't a "marriage", I don't know what is.

I also strongly support gay adoption, but I'll leave that for another time. :)

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 02:41 PM
I think that the internet is a good place for people to talk about stuff like this. I don't know about the rest of you but I HATE talking about spiritual stuff with most people because it's always a big argument. People, myself included, are so afraid of saying how they really feel that nothing but bad feelings arise. I think the internet, with its anonimity, makes it easier for people to say more closely how they really feel, even though I still find it somewhat hard to find words. (not due to stupidity, just that our crude language is terribly inadequate when it comes to dealing with higher truths)

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 02:44 PM
A person cannot be measured by their sexual preference, but by the type of person they are inside. Like I said before, I like the person for who they are not what they are. If people are too bothered by a persons sexual orientation then the problem is their own. And also I wonder how many people have acquaintances or close friends who are gay but they dont know it. If they were to find out would this affect their friendship? I am sure it happens.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 02:45 PM
Hey Ep,
As far as carbon dating goes,any geologist worth his salt will tell you it's not it's cracked up to be.If you follow the equations used in carbon dating then the most common rock on the planet could exist,Granite.If simple granite could not exist then the planet it self wouldn't.Granite has a gas in it that need to be formed in the rock in less than 3 seconds.Could not exist if it had taken millions of years.It would have disapated and never bonded chemically.
On Noahs ark,Where does it say they were adult animals.It is also an assumption the the same number of species and subspecies existed at the time.
Most scientists evolutionist or creationist believe in at least "Macro evolutiuon"This beutifully explains the adaptation of animals as they spread to different regions and climates on the earth.Remember the whole earth was a tropical enviroment before the "firmament" above the earth fell and the "Springs" of the earth opened splitting Pangea into seperate continents.This also explains that no rainbow had ever been seen before.It had never rained.Didn't need to because of the springs in the ground that provided all the needed water.They ridiculed Noah more for the idea itwould rain than building a giant boat in his front yard.There is evidence piling up daily that prove the continental shift happened when the water covered the earth.not millions of years.The mountain ranges were formed in a short time.Follow the fault lines and see where it happened.
The great plains is the richest farmland in the world because as the water recided it was a giant silt bowl between the Rockies and Appalachians.The grand Canyon was formed by the run off of that In land sea.Massive silt deposits found in the gulf of California have also proven that.
The ice age was an instant event.Hence the flash frozen tropical forests found in both Alaska and Siberia.There is a hydro plate about three miles deep and a little over a mile down under every major mountain chain in the world.There and the freah water ice caps is where the water went.I had a Pastor who was a Rhodes Scholoar and had a PHD in Anthropology and geoglogy from oxford.It was these discoveries in his education that lead him to become a christian.There is more "logic" used in the Historical accounts given in the Bible than in Scientific babble.If we Christians are illogical in our defense of our beliefs can't the same be said for Atheist scientists?Are they not really defending their beliefs

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 02:50 PM
Most athiests I know are among the most preachy people I know. Ironic isn't it?

Bosskman
04-22-2002, 02:59 PM
PS, I heard that no rain thing somewhere before. I don't know about the rest of you but I find it very hard to believe that people these days no absolutely everything there is to know about everything. While I do find history and stuff really interesting, I don't think knowing HOW things came about are nearly as important as to WHY things came about. Science tries to figure out the HOW, and any true scientist would tell you that scientific "facts" are not truth, but rather only the closest approximation to the truth we have at this time. There's also a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to science, and scientists motives are not always pure and objective. I find, and this is another irony, that if someone comes up with a theory and can substanciate it with evidence, even if it makes as much or more sense as the prevailing scientific notions of the time (and they change constantly), if the authorities don't like it, it's relegated to the quack pile.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 03:04 PM
Instead of rambling I should have just said what Bosskman just did:smile:And I too thank everyone for keeping a very sensitive issue peacefull and respectful.I really do have respect for all of you and you beliefs and opinions.After what I've read so far I belief you all have the same for mine,Thanks.This is a great place with great people

Jedi Clint
04-22-2002, 03:04 PM
What's the difference between someone who stands in a church and rants about their superior understanding of the Bible and someone on a message board doing the same thing? Nothing in my opinion. The Bible is a book. Reading that book (or any other) is an individual experience. I have read a good portion of it (I'm not done yet), and I bet that I got something totally different out of it than everyone else who laid eyes on those same words before me. If you begrudge someone their interpretation, then how tolerant of a person are you? And how confident are you in your own interpretation (assuming you have digested the material in the first place)?

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 03:10 PM
I agree Dryanta. We have kept it mature and there hasnt been any dispute. It goes to show something like this can be discussed in a civil manner.
SirSteve would be proud.

JesusFreak
04-22-2002, 03:36 PM
Wow, I didn't realize there were so many christians on this board. I think this may have gotten a bit off topic with the homo sexuality thing, but its good to get such a big response. :)

JetsAndHeels
04-22-2002, 03:38 PM
See what youve started? :)

Jedi Teacher
04-22-2002, 04:17 PM
Sheesh!! I walk away from my computer to work for a couple hours and there's been tons of posts!!
There are too many to respond to everything, but here are a few more thoughts:

1) I completely agree with JangoFett 96--this discussion has been a great one -- and a mature one--bravo, everyone

2) Regarding homosexuality--I don't quite remember now how that topic got brought into this, but there are several perspectives. Personally, I believe that it is possible to be a homosexual and a Christian--Just like you could be a liar and a Christian-- we all commit sinse, and Christ has forgiven us--granted, it's not a "get out of hell free" card for us to just sin like crazy down here! Also, (and I don't mean to offend anyone) I personally think that ACTING upon homosexuality is a sin.
I think that a Christian response to homosexuality is as follows: they are people, loved by Jesus and welcome to accept him as their savior and enter into heaven.

3) Regarding other random "technicalities." I think the Bible will provide answers to many people's questions. I wish I could attempt better answers, but I need to read it more myself. I suggest those of you with questions do the same--or seek out a pastor that will talk with you. There are also some books written on these topics--go to a Christian bookstore and ask for some suggestions. However, we need to understand that we will never have ALL of our questions completely answered. That is the purpose of faith. If we knew everything, faith in God would not be necessary.

3) I will now get off of my soapbox. 6 hrs and 45 minutes until Midnight madness!!!!!

THE Slayer
04-22-2002, 04:53 PM
People also tend to forget that things change. And by the most part people themselves do the changing. Just because I tell my friend a story about what happened at work means there is a certainty that the story will remain the same when he tells it to his friend. Personal agendas and quirks come into play. I'm also pretty sure that when the good book was written that it was written in a language that no one on this message board could easily decipher. Therefor translators were needed and thousands of years later is a very long time for that story to stay the same.

SithDroid
04-22-2002, 05:02 PM
Well I for one like to consider myself "spiritual." I believe in a higher power, but I do not agree with a lot of religious teachings. Plus I have had a lot of situations arise in my lifetime that have made me ponder religion. Here are a couple of them, so maybe you can help me out.

My father cheated on my mother when I was 3 years old and because of that my mom divorced him and since she didn't have anywhere to go she had to move back in with her parents. She had to raise my brother and I by herself. I rarely got to see my dad because he didn't care for us. Then by the time I reach 17 he decides to become a "Born Again Christian." Why should I forgive him when he broke up our family and I ended up growing up, well not exactly poor, but I could have been off way better had he been around.

Also I have an uncle-in-law who never liked my brother and I because we never went to church and he was a huge church-goer. This was because my mother never had time to take us with working two jobs. Then when I was about 20 my Uncle had an affair with another woman. What I started to say to myself was "How can you judge me, when you break the sanctity of marriage by cheating on your wife which just happens to be one of the ten commandments." I have had problems with the whole thing.

Also another thing, I am an actor and have a ton of gay friends. I mean not just people I do shows with, but people I actually hang out with and am not ashamed to be around. I get tired of all the gay bashing that I hear that comes from religious people, not saying that all do, but some. Even when I was in highschool I was made fun of and called gay because I was good friends with the schools only openly gay student, although I myself am not. I don't see why people have to be so childish sometimes.

Plus I get tired of hearing about all these people killing themselves in foreign countries in the name of their religion. Most religions teach that killing is wrong, yet why do they practice it?. There have been more people killed in the name of religion than probably anything else.

Also, I myself, have trouble with the whole Evolution vs. Adam and Eve thing. I won't go into it here though.

Please don't take anything I have said as a personal attack. I was merely stating why I like to consider myself a "spiritual" person than a religious person. I'd like to go to church and all, but there are just too many instances in my life where I have noticed some sort of contradiction or hate that stems from religion, which is what I do not believe in. Sorry for the whole life story I almost wrote up above.

Dryanta
04-22-2002, 05:24 PM
Hey Sithdroid,
Sorry to hear about the situation in the past with your dad.Why should you forgive him?Because you're not perfect either.:) My situation growing up was very similar to yours.You can choose to carry all that around with you or you can dump it like the poison that is.God tells us to forgive for us not others.
As far as your Uncle goes sounds like he was an idiot and still may be.If he was concerned about you and brothers well being why didn't he make a conection for in a local church or take you himself?Don't judge a faith by a few screwed up Humans.
As far as the gay issue and the bigotry you describe.There are bigots every where.People of faith or not.Again screwed up humans.
There has been alot of death revolving around religion.Not Faith.If true faith was involved these things would not happen because these people would actually see what their tenants say and act upon them.
The problem is not with god it's with people.If that were not the case the Drastic fix of the death of Christ would not have been needed.Everyone wants to be free of any kind of responsibility and guilt.But when the world sucks it's all gods fault.Pick which way you want it.That is a general statement not directed at you.
Do you want complete freedom to make your own decisions or would rather bend to the will of something bigger than you?Go it on your own and pay the price.Along with the price others bring upon you.Go it with him and have the peace of nowing there are bigger reasons for trouble then just our own stupidity.And I haven't taken any offense from what you said and thanks for the concern.

Dar' Argol
04-22-2002, 05:50 PM
I just really want to thank everyone here for keeping this thread "clean". I saw the title and I got a knot in the pit of my stomache:eek:. Good discution by all. Here's my 2 cents:

I am a non-praticing Catholic. I was born into this religion and, by no decision on my part, brought up in it. I do not agree with many things in the Catholic religion and I do not believe I am going to a warmer climate when I die b/c I do not attend Church. I cannot be in a place where everyone acts like droids with(what appears to be) no free thought or will. I have been to many Baptist services(b/c of and ex-girlfriend) and never before saw that kind of freedom. I do not have the time, nor the patients(sp) to change religions. That just seem a little . . . . . I don't know . . . . . . funny to me?? Oh well.

I do believe in a higher power but I also believe in many other things. A few friends and I had a long discussion over religion some time ago that would make a priest's head spin. We would have been excomunicated because some ppl can't think outside the box.

I will not subjigate(sp big time!) my believes onto another person. My daughter has not been baptized yet b/c my wife and I have not come to a decision on this. I served my 12 years in a Catholic school, so has my wife. We do not believe this made us better ppl, because if you know any Catholic school ppl, they are some of the biggest trouble makers and partiers!! I believe we will let her decide when she is old enough.

Now I know some things I have stated may offend some ppl, but remember, you don't live with me. You really don't even know me. These are my "beliefs" and my "code of conduct". This is how I live "my" life. And so far, its been a great one!:D

But again, thank you for keeping this thread clean. Good luck tonight to everyone:happy:

JesusFreak
04-22-2002, 06:18 PM
Thanks Dar', I'm hopin to find my Dooku tonight. Anyways, I wanna thank everyone for keepin this clean too, I've done this a couple other times and, well, you can probly guess what happened, thanks guys!

BTW SithDroid, I'm sorry about your dad and everything but you need to give him a second chance, wouldn't you want another chance if you messed up like that?

stillakid
04-22-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by JesusFreak
Wow, I didn't realize there were so many christians on this board. I think this may have gotten a bit off topic with the homo sexuality thing, but its good to get such a big response. :)


Oh good, you're back. I was wondering if you had any intention of answering the questions put forth in my first post, or if you just planned to ignore them? If you are going to ignore them, are we to assume that you don't agree with "smiting" people or "stoning" or selling your daughters into slavery? If not, then how can anything you say at all have any credibility? If you don't believe in the worst the Bible has to offer, then why would you want to associate yourself with any of it? Doesn't that call the entire book into question?

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Waiting patiently for your answers to the questions...

SithDroid
04-22-2002, 06:38 PM
Oh stillakid, I received that same list from a person I know. It made me wonder about what people choose to believe in in the the Bible or how they just dismiss things while others seem more relevant.

If one is to be a good Christian/Catholic/any religious denomination should the Bible be followed 100%? Also which version Old Testament or New Testament? And why are there two diffferent Testaments? Did the people who wrote The Bible edit it for their preferences? These are questions I would have gotten into trouble for asking had I actually gone to Catholic School.

derek
04-22-2002, 06:57 PM
stillakid,

technically, since jesus freak is a christian, the vast majority of his "faith" is derived from the new testament. modern chirstians have no problem throwing the old testament out the window so their belief system fits in a nice neat package. don't hold your breath for any serious answers.:)

now i have a serious question for our homosexual forum members:

1. do you recall when you were first attracted to members of your own gender?
2. do you think your homosexuality is genetic, or "hardwired" into your personality or is it a conscious choice?
3. have you ever doubted whether you are homosexual?
4. do you think homosexuality is a psychological disorder?
5. do you think people are conditioned to be either homo or hetrosexual by society, their family or religion?

any of you that want to reply here i would appreciate it, or you can private message me.
and for the record, i'm of the belief that what two concenting adults do with their lives is their own business. i'm not in any way judging anyone. thanks.:)

my own opinion of "religion" is that it is a primative philosophy developed by primative people thousands of years ago in a vain attempt to explain the universe and world around them. or i could quote my hero, mike mentzer:"the universe is not a haunted house!":)

bigbarada
04-22-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



Oh good, you're back. I was wondering if you had any intention of answering the questions put forth in my first post, or if you just planned to ignore them? If you are going to ignore them, are we to assume that you don't agree with "smiting" people or "stoning" or selling your daughters into slavery? If not, then how can anything you say at all have any credibility? If you don't believe in the worst the Bible has to offer, then why would you want to associate yourself with any of it? Doesn't that call the entire book into question?

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Waiting patiently for your answers to the questions...

I'll answer part of that for JesusFreak, if he doesn't mind. When Jesus came to earth it was for the fulfillment of God's Word. The Pharisees (Jewish Religious Scholars) were so threatened with Jesus' ideas because they seemed to be totally contradictory to what was written in the Torah (the Jewish holy book and the first five books of the Christian Old Testament). No longer was it necessary for blood sacrifices to cleanse a person of sin; because Jesus offered himself up to be the ultimate blood sacrifice. Thus he secured a way for people to enter heaven that wasn't of this earth and he effectively wiped clean the "old covenant" of the Jewish religion.

Hebrews chapter 8, verses 12-13:
"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
In that He says, "A new convenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Thus, all of those rules put forth by the Old Testament are part of the old covenant. I believe they are there for our reference, not an unwaiverable set of rules for us to follow. While most of those laws have outdated themselves because of the changing world situation, many of them still can be used today. Take the Ten Commandments for instance, those tens laws are a good idea to follow no matter what period of history you live in.

Eternal Padawan, you brought up the scientific method of Carbon-14 dating to determine the age of fossils and any remains of living matter. I'm sure you know the general process of observing the half-life of the carbon atoms of the object and the ratio of "parent" (the original atom type) and "daughter" (the atom type into which it decays). Only problem with that is that the process is only accurate to 100,000 years IF you have four necessary variables in place.

1. the current ratio of parent to daughter

2. the parent to daughter ratio at the beginning

3. how much parent and/or daughter was taken out or added since the beginning

4. the half-life throughout the history of the decay process

Of these four variables, however, only the first can be directly measured. The other three must be inferred (the scientific term for an educated guess). Try to solve any algebra problem with three missing variables and see how accurate your answer will be. Like I said before, even if all of these variables were present, the process is only accurate to 100,000 years; BUT if the results are compared to tree rings that accuracy drops to only 1000 years, with an increasing margin of error the older the item gets.

chewie
04-22-2002, 07:17 PM
I wish Jesus loved me. I got a whole LOT of physical health problems and a bit of mental distress. Had it for years. Jesus doesn't seem to help me at all in these matters however. I don't hold it against the guy, but apparently the 20 some odd years I was a christian just didnt help me one bit. *shrugs*

DeadEye
04-22-2002, 07:22 PM
I'm atheist.

bigbarada
04-22-2002, 07:26 PM
Being granted perfect health is not a condition of Christianity. My mother has been a Christian for her entire life (53 years) and is also an epileptic. I have been a born again Christian since I was 7 (1981) and that hasn't stopped me from developing a bad liver, arthritis in my hips and plantar fasciitis in my feet. It's not your physical body that is important since that will pass away. It's your spirit that is important.

chewie
04-22-2002, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I know all that. However, the spirit is very much bonded to the body. Bodily health definitely equates spiritual health, be it in league with the scripture or not.

derek
04-22-2002, 07:34 PM
dead eye,

that's a rather bold statement for someone so young. when i was 16, this is the last thing i was thinking about. but so you grow up to be a good, rational athiest, may i recommend you visit

www.aynrand.org

i don't want you getting sidetracked by communism.:)

stillakid
04-22-2002, 07:47 PM
As I grow older, the questions of religion to me grow deeper. For instance, when I see the results of blind faith drive passenger aircraft into tall buildings or watch as devoted religious people explode themselves with the intention of taking out others as well, it has to make you wonder.

Christians are not immune to this sort of irrational behavior either. In fact, if it weren't for the Roman Empire and violent events like the Crusades, we probably wouldn't even be having this disussion. Who knows what religion most of us would have been brought up under, but it most likely wouldn't have been Christianity.

It is very disturbing to me, and should be to everyone, to see someone "proclaiming" the "Good News" as if it were the only way. Got news for ya, every religion thinks that it is the only way and the rest of the pack is just deluding itself. At what point does blind faith degenerate into fanaticism and thus take on the attitude that everyone else who doesn't believe is a heretic and must be destroyed?

Jesusfreak stated his point of view and decided that he would back it up with a written document. I've called into question the validity of that document, as a whole. Who doesn't want the world to be a happy loving place for all of us to live in, but ironically, it is the avenue that some people take that they think will get us there that actually tends to be the biggest obstacle. The Bible is supposed to have been written by God using the hand of man. Assuming infallibility, it doesn't seem right to negate portions for modern life just because the context has changed. Either God wrote it, or He didn't. If we're not going to "believe" in every word, then we can only assume that a) He is fallible, or b) He didn't write any of it, [or c) there is no old man sitting up there with a book o' rules deciding who is naughty or nice. Sounds like Santa Claus, doesn't it?]

I vote c. It is much more likely that there isn't a "god" that plays a part in our lives like so many "religious" folk would like to think. Who created this? Why? Who knows. It is fair to concede that there might be some kind of conscience intelligence that created this for some reason or another, but to specualate beyond that is only hopeful thinking. As far as I know, there has never been any proof of any kind of supernatural being out there. If there was, we wouldn't need to apply the word "faith" to religious thought. So ascribing one's beliefs to a book written by men (presumably) who had their own agendas in their own context seems kinda silly. Believe what you want to believe, but don't use somebody else's novels as the backbone of your faith. Stand up for yourself and develop your own ideas about what is right and why. Why hide behind the Bible?

JesusFreak
04-22-2002, 08:06 PM
Thanks Bigbarada. I'm sorry I didn't answer your questions stillakid, this topic keeps growing that its hard to keep up with everything. Just like bigbarada said, the Old Covenant was there until the Messiah (Jesus) came and set the New Covenant up. There really isn't much I can add to what he said. I would just like to point out that you shouldn't think that the Jews in OT times were saved by the law, they were saved by faith just as we are today, faith in the Messiah coming, we have faith that he came. I'm not a good speaker at all. Bigbarada said it much better than I could.

On the note of health, just remember what Paul said, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is what keeps Christians going through hardships, not physical health, but Jesus wonderful love.

bigbarada
04-22-2002, 08:10 PM
When I studied logical reasoning in college, one of the basic rules of logic was that if you disagree with one part of a persons arguments it doesn't necessarily mean that the entire argument is invalid. That's what we called a logical fallacy.

Anyways, the laws set forth in the Old Testament were there because mankind simply wasn't ready for the fulfillment of God's promise yet. Like teaching a child to run, first they have to learn to crawl, then they have to learn to walk before they can run. I believe the same goes for God's plan for man's salvation, certain things had to be in place before He could give His Son. Another analogy would be building the foundation of a house, different rules and laws apply to laying a foundation than to erecting a house. Not the least of which is that laying a foundation first requires an act of destruction (breaking ground) for it to be strong enough to hold the house up.

SithDroid
04-22-2002, 08:10 PM
Beautifully put stillakid. I agree with you on most of what you said. I have never taken much stock in the Bible since it was written by MAN and it also has different editions (Old Testament and New Testament). It is almost like it is owned by some book company and the New Testament was the second printing. A lot of it contradicts itself many times within, as stated by your post, so it makes me wonder about it sometimes. Also the whole science vs. religion factor has always intrigued me seeing as the science aspect can be proven while religion is more of a "you must believe," type.

I don't mind religion, as long as no one SHOVES it in my face. There is nothing I hate more than when someone decides to PUSH their beliefs on me. I am an individual that has the right to choose what I believe in. If that does not coincide with their religion, then they can just ignore me. Many people go through life searching for some sort of spirituality and some people take longer than others, but having "faith" or being a devout Christian IMO has nothing to do with the kind of person you are or where you will end up after you die. There are many people out there that are not religious, but they lead a very good life by helping people out, donating time and money to organizations, being a good role model, etc... and just because they are not religious means that they won't supposedly get into "heaven?" I find this very hard to believe. That is part of the reason I like to consider myself "spiritual." That way I can decide what morals of the Bible and of religion that I think are most important to leading a good life.

DeadEye
04-22-2002, 08:14 PM
it isn't really a bold statement. My whole family is atheist.

derek
04-22-2002, 08:49 PM
.

chewie
04-22-2002, 10:14 PM
There's a whole lot I dont get about the christian faith even after experiencing it for a long time. Not that I even practice the religion anymore. But one of the oddest things I can think of with christianity is that Jesus was jewish, Yet christians believe in sinning and a real hell (or something of that nature) where jews do not. Doesn't the bible basically say those that aren't saved will simply be seperated from God? What's so bad about that? Maybe I'm missing the point to the whole thing. All I know is I'm a good person (I think), who is stricken with a few earthly ailments.

stillakid
04-22-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by chewie
There's a whole lot I dont get about the christian faith even after experiencing it for a long time. Not that I even practice the religion anymore. But one of the oddest things I can think of with christianity is that Jesus was jewish, Yet christians believe in sinning and a real hell (or something of that nature) where jews do not. Doesn't the bible basically say those that aren't saved will simply be seperated from God? What's so bad about that? Maybe I'm missing the point to the whole thing. All I know is I'm a good person (I think), who is stricken with a few earthly ailments.


The way most faiths operate, as I've posted above, is that they drill this idea of a Charlton Heston like old man into you, some bearded guy sitting up on high somewhere with a book of rules. If you follow the rules, you win. If you don't follow the rules, you lose. That's a simplification, sure, but that captures the essence of it. Quite a juvenile concept, but it keeps the masses content with the idea that there is something bigger than themselves out there keeping some kind of control over the potential chaos. Look at it this way, why do most people stop completely at a 4 way stop even if they can clearly see that there is no chance of getting into an accident? Precisely! They stop just in case there is a cop hiding out nearby. They don't follow the rules because it's the right (?) thing to do. They are afraid of getting caught and the subsequent punishment.

So, enter organized religious belief in a world of uneducated, primitive people who are just trying to make sense of the scary elements around them. Fire. Water. Eclipses. Lightning. You get the idea. They invent stories for where this stuff comes from. That naturally leads to an idea of why it might be there and who could have the "power" to do it. They have no real answers. Just a lot of questions and over-active imaginations to fill in the blanks. Naturally, with human-nature being what it is, a few opportunistic folk see the side-benefits that can come from getting people to believe...no...in making them fear "god." And of course, these humble subjects will need some kind of middle-men, someone who "understands" "god" better then they to "interpret" and "deliver" the "good news." Creation and control of the information equals power and power makes you feel better about yourself. Doubt it? Look at our buddy Bin Laden. He takes a desperate and fearful people and exploits their weaknesses to his own advantage. He uses them, playing upon their prejudices that they attribute to the religion that their own leaders have handed down to them. Religion is nothing more than a tool (much like television) to subdue the masses into following the whims of those with real power.

So, in regards to your above question about being "saved," who gets the priviledge of making the rules for that? How many different religions (and divisions within those!) exist on this planet? Not to go sci-fi here, but what about the "extraterrestial" religions (if there are any)? Why is the Bible any more correct than the Quaran? What about the Old Testament vs the New? A couple of the posts above just "threw out" the Old with a shrug. I'm sure that there are synagogues full of people who might differ with that.

The point here is that nobody knows anything about any god(s). Because of some reward system, lots of people hope that there is one up there putting them on the "good" list. ("If I just don't fornicate before marriage then I get that gold star. If I don't have lustful thoughts about my neighbor's wife, then I get another gold star...") That's what organized religion is all about.

2-1B
04-23-2002, 03:11 AM
stillakid put forth a great battery of questions regarding the OT and for years I've been waiting for an answer on one particular aspect: "homosexuality". He cites Leviticus as the popular basis for condemning it, and offers other laws from the same testament. To say that Jesus washed that covenant away is o.k. by me, but it does not answer the question because if Jesus washed that away, then the whole issue of homosexuality should have been washed away with it.

But ironically when I see many Christians condemn it, they still cite Leviticus as the reason. So we're back to the beginning again. I don't see how you can throw out mandates of revenge, sacrifice, et al and NOT throw out the "homosexuality ban." If anyone can explain to me why we can look to Leviticus for our proof on that issue while not using it to condemn me for not slaying some animal . . . . then you might just convince me that homosexuality is wrong ;) :rolleyes:

And who is this Carbon-14 I keep hearing about? I'm thinking about dating her myself, sounds like a wild time. :D We can maybe sit around and do math problems . . . . solving equations is hot. :p

JEDIpartner
04-23-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Teacher
I personally think that ACTING upon homosexuality is a sin.

I personally think that ACTING upon heterosexuality is a sin... unless you're married.

Jargo
04-23-2002, 02:04 PM
I personally think that labelling of any description is just downright rude and elitist. Dale says he's gay. Some would call him the devil incarnate, a sinner, a godless heathen. Some would go further and call him whatever hateful (gay-related) names people can come up with. I call him Dale. He's my friend. He's a good friend and he has a heart of gold. That's all that matters. But according to the churches of many religions both he and I should be tortured to death. Dale because he's gay and me for fraternising with him. Association making me tainted in the eyes of the as yet unproved entity folk call 'God'. How does this thread get round to the gay versus the church thing again? Because the gay issue is the biggest convenient rant of religious types next to adultery and sex before marriage. You can't talk about religion without it cropping up.
personally I believe in sex at every opportunity with whoever I so choose. So long as nobody gets hurt and both parties are consensual what's the problem? It has nothing to do with anyone but me and my partner what I do and when I do it. I don't believe marriage is anything more than an act of submission to the church from both partners getting hitched. It's a license for the church to stomp all over you and rule your life. Christening kids before they have a chance to have a say in it is disgusting. I was christened without my consent and I feel like sueing my Mother for saddling me with that faith for the rest of my life.
And right on stillakid! With you all the way with that last post.

stillakid
04-23-2002, 02:10 PM
The homosexual thing came up as an unintended result of my first post, which was primarily to ascertain Jesusfreaks true knowledge about his own religion. I didn't mean for the discussion to go that direction because of the post, but dominos fall where they may.

Interestingly enough, he still refuses to respond to those specific questions after dropping his scripture bomb in this forum.

jeddah
04-23-2002, 03:00 PM
Stillakid, your posts throughout this have been a lifeline of sanity in a convoluted thread largely populated with rhetoric.

my opinion is;

Organised Religion/zealots - I don't mind what you do so long as it is behind closed doors and doesn't hurt anyone. I have never understood why - from a philosophical POV - the code of rightness (not righteousness) went to religion by default.

I don't want to be going off on one about religion but I find it one of the most limiting and self-imposing systems that mankind has.

Emperor Jargo hits the nail squarely when he says being gay is not a constant sexfest, but when someone typed this;


Personally, I believe that it is possible to be a homosexual and a Christian--Just like you could be a liar and a Christian--

I'm surprised it got through without comment. The inference that being gay equates to being a liar is obvious - a much more suitable comparision should've been sought by the author.

What are gay men and women supposed to do? Do heterosexual couples have the monopoly on sex? Or are we meant to be forcing ourselves to sleep with the opposite sex because it makes God happy? Surely that is a more insidious lie as it is damaging to the unsuspecting partner who belives their lover to be heterosexual.

If the Christian God created life, then it follows that He is also responsible for homosexuality. Anything that exists, is Nature, was part of Creation, therefore how can He divorce Himself from it? Or was it just floating around the Void, awaiting for an angel to fall, and discover, and ply it?

I think faith is a much more universal term to apply to people's spritual belief; I have very strong faith, but do not cleave to a single religion. I meditate, conduct healing, work clairvoyantly and assist others in need without question. The energy I use, I am sure comes from a Higher power but not man's interpretation of it...

Finally, in the future, some x years time when we have finally put to rest the hopelssly redundant argument that we are not the sole planet harbouring intelligent life, will the Christian Church; a) accept these lifeforms into their arms, adjusting the Bible to account for it and; b) if so, will they send Missionaries to enlighten the lifeforms?

jeddah

stillakid
04-23-2002, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by jeddah
Stillakid, your posts throughout this have been a lifeline of sanity in a convoluted thread largely populated with rhetoric.

my opinion is;

Organised Religion/zealots - I don't mind what you do so long as it is behind closed doors and doesn't hurt anyone. I have never understood why - from a philosophical POV - the code of rightness (not righteousness) went to religion by default.

I don't want to be going off on one about religion but I find it one of the most limiting and self-imposing systems that mankind has.

Emperor Jargo hits the nail squarely when he says being gay is not a constant sexfest, but when someone typed this;



I'm surprised it got through without comment. The inference that being gay equates to being a liar is obvious - a much more suitable comparision should've been sought by the author.

What are gay men and women supposed to do? Do heterosexual couples have the monopoly on sex? Or are we meant to be forcing ourselves to sleep with the opposite sex because it makes God happy? Surely that is a more insidious lie as it is damaging to the unsuspecting partner who belives their lover to be heterosexual.

If the Christian God created life, then it follows that He is also responsible for homosexuality. Anything that exists, is Nature, was part of Creation, therefore how can He divorce Himself from it? Or was it just floating around the Void, awaiting for an angel to fall, and discover, and ply it?

I think faith is a much more universal term to apply to people's spritual belief; I have very strong faith, but do not cleave to a single religion. I meditate, conduct healing, work clairvoyantly and assist others in need without question. The energy I use, I am sure comes from a Higher power but not man's interpretation of it...

Finally, in the future, some x years time when we have finally put to rest the hopelssly redundant argument that we are not the sole planet harbouring intelligent life, will the Christian Church; a) accept these lifeforms into their arms, adjusting the Bible to account for it and; b) if so, will they send Missionaries to enlighten the lifeforms?

jeddah

There are a couple of interesting points to be made here. The first quote that you refer to has a different line of discussion to run with.

Personally, I believe that it is possible to be a homosexual and a Christian--Just like you could be a liar and a Christian--

And that discussion is this: if a group is formed with a certain set of rules and guidelines, some of which you don't subscribe to, then why would you want to be a part of it in the first place? Let's take a completely random organization, say, the Boyscouts of America. Now, they are a group like any other entitled to write up a mission statement, goals, requirements, etc. They say that they don't want homosexual members. That's their right. Now what praytell, is the rationale for somebody, anybody, to join that group if they don't agree with that tenent? Why join when you know that in order to stay you'd have to fight from within the system to change the rule? Why join a group just to change the rules of it? Makes no sense. They have every right to have any rule they want (so long as it doesn't involve a crime). You don't have to like it. So go form your own group. I never understood this. It would be nice if everyone could just get along, but the fact of the matter is that they don't. Makes no sense to me.

The second thing is (and I've managed to stay out of the homosexual thing thus far) the topic of homosexuality. Our friend, Dr. Laura, said one thing in the past that did intrigue me. She said something to the effect that homosexuals were an abomination, or something like that. I put some thought into that, and actually began to agree with her.

Now whoa!! Before the hate mail comes flooding in, let me explain. She may have been working from some kind of "moral sensibility" but I decided to look at it from a pure biological perspective. I had this actual discussion with a homosexual gentlemen and he actually came to agree with me, just to let you know that I'm not out for blood or something. What it boils down to is this: what is the biological necessity for any living organism to act upon homosexual tendencies (sexually)? Assuming that the express purpose of any biological organism is to reproduce (everything else that organism does with it's lifetime is extraneous), then what would be the purpose for "nature" to produce organisms that, not only have no desire to reproduce, but, more than just being apathetic about it, said organism is attracted to the same sex. From a biological standpoint there is no advantage for that organism to act that way. In time, that species would die off, if that tendency became the dominant behavior.

So this gay gentlemen agreed with the question and since there's no denying that some species actually do exhibit this sort of behavior, we tried to figure out where it comes from and why it might be happening. Our premise was this: (and it gets a little goofy) somehow, I don't know how, "nature" is reacting to what "it" perceives as overpopulation of a particular species, then attempts to compensate by allowing this non-reproductive desire to flourish. What is "nature?" How does it "know" or "percieve"...well...anything? Who the hell knows. Nobody for now. Maybe that tendency has always been a part of every organism, but humans are just letting it be a more accepted part of society lately, or something, which just makes it seem more prevalent. Again, who knows? But in the end, there doesn't appear to be any biological advantage or necessity for homosexuality, which does beg the question of why it occurs in the first place?

All other "rhetoric" is based on fear and hate and just plain ignorance. I've tried to hit this from a pure direction, devoid of emotional preconceptions etc. So I hope that you've all seen it that way. Nothing else was intended.

(Oh, and, hope you're all finding the toys you want today!)

Grif
04-23-2002, 03:40 PM
I am just happy to see more Christians on this site!! Until today I thought I was one of the only ones on here that was! BTW , this is a great thread!

SithDroid
04-23-2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Our premise was this: (and it gets a little goofy) somehow, I don't know how, "nature" is reacting to what "it" perceives as overpopulation of a particular species, then attempts to compensate by allowing this non-reproductive desire to flourish. What is "nature?" How does it "know" or "percieve"...well...anything? Who the hell knows. Nobody for now. Maybe that tendency has always been a part of every organism, but humans are just letting it be a more accepted part of society lately, or something, which just makes it seem more prevalent. Again, who knows? But in the end, there doesn't appear to be any biological advantage or necessity for homosexuality, which does beg the question of why it occurs in the first place?

stillakid, you have put much thought into your posts and I commend you for it. Almost everything you've said I agree with, but only you did it much better than I ever could have.

Replying to this quote you posted. Nature IMO does react to overpopulation. Think about how rapidly the earths population has increased within the last century. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm sure that it has at least tripled itself. Nature IMO creates obstacles to control the population. What other reason would there be for: homosexuality, AIDS, Cancer, War, abortion, car wrecks, murders, earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, etc... Nature somehow finds a way to control the overpopulation by regulating it through these. Imagine how much larger the Earths population would be if none of these factors had anything to do with controling it.

I know this is way off the topic of religion, but I just wanted to elaborate on stillakids post. Now back to the topic at hand.

Dar' Argol
04-23-2002, 11:00 PM
Wow. This is better then "Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy".

I just want to remind everyone, since we are treading into the "Same-Sex area" to please keep it clean and respectful. I really like this discussion and I do not want it closed. This is a topic(on the whole) that I have discussed many times with other ppl.

Not trying to steer ppl away from the Homosexuality Topic but try this on for size. And I am not being sacreligious, it is just "logical" thinking.

What if Jesus was an Alien????

Now wait, think about it. He performed all these "miricals" that, at the time, were awe inspiring. He brought Lazrus back from the dead. Can our doctors not do the same thing? He multiplied the loaves and fish. We now have the technology to clone, is that not almost the same? He died and on the third day rose into Heaven. He died, was brought back to life, and was transported back onto his ship. Is this so far fetched??? He rose in a white light. Why is it impossible for an alien race to visit this planet back then, inpregnate a woman, and have this "Messiah" perform all of this to create a religion and make this worlds inhabitians change how they viewed thing?? Maybe they saw something the inhabitians didn't. Maybe they foresaw the downfall of humanity if they did not step in and do something to change it. It is not that far fetched.

I do not believe in blindly following any religion. Questions must be asked and ppl deserve to know. I do believe that there is a higher power. I hope there is an afterlife. Have you every really sat down and thought about death?? Its depressing I know, but have you. You live your life and in the end, it just stops?? That's it?? You no longer feel, smell, think, love, hate, . . . nothing?? I really hope that there is a place after death that my wife and our childern can spend eternity in, together. It saddens me to think that we live these "lives" with no kind of reward or reprive at the end. That everything that we do is for nothing b/c after death, there is nothing.

I do not believe that one religion is better then another or that one version of "God" is the right version. Just the same that I do not believe everything George Lucus spits out is gold, or every fig Hasbro puts out is the best.

Here's another thing to make your head spin. What if Darwin and religon were both right??

How long is a day to God??? Who knows?? So, what if God saw these Chimps and monkeys. And they were starting to stand up on their hind legs? And he thought what a good idea that was so he "Tweeked" them a bit and "poof" man was created?? Again, not too far fetched. This would support Darwin's theroy and the Creation Theroy all at the same time.

Just some food for thought:D.

stillakid
04-24-2002, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid


Replying to this quote you posted. Nature IMO does react to overpopulation. Think about how rapidly the earths population has increased within the last century. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm sure that it has at least tripled itself. Nature IMO creates obstacles to control the population. What other reason would there be for: homosexuality, AIDS, Cancer, War, abortion, car wrecks, murders, earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, volcanos, etc... Nature somehow finds a way to control the overpopulation by regulating it through these. Imagine how much larger the Earths population would be if none of these factors had anything to do with controling it.


True, however, the Earth has always been a violent place in terms of "natural disasters" and consequently a dangerous place for organisms of all types to thrive in. At the distinct risk of getting REALLY controversial, you could apply the same logic above to Hitler. In no way would I ever intend to support his atrocities, however, just imagine the state of the planet today, 50 odd years after his regime, if he hadn't killed off 6 million potential parents. If those 6 million spawned 12 million, and those 12 million spawned 24, and those spawned 48 and so on and so on. You get the point. Perhaps "nature" "creates" a genocidal maniac every once in while to control population as well. Who knows. As much as we humans like to think we are above it all, we are just as much a part of the ecosystem as everything else.

Oh, and thanks for the support. These are touchy waters for most people and it is always tricky to wade into them.

Wolfwood319
04-24-2002, 02:47 AM
You bring up a good point, Stillakid. Although I don't condone the actions of Hitler, Stalin, and the like, imagine what the world would be like if they hadn't existed. There would have been no concentration camps, no WWII, no mass genocide of Russians, etc. But there'd also be about 50 million more people on this planet, that given the time, would've reproduced. Imagine how many people would live on this planet by now.

Also, there is a site I like to visit called Family.org. It is a "Christian family propoganda" site, as I've heard it been called. They have columns and articles about many of today's world issues, such as cloning, homosexuality, world violence, etc. However, they present every topic in such a biased way, that the truth gets clouded over by whoever wrote the article's personal views. They only present one side of the story, and back up "facts" with quotes from the Bible.

This is a typical example of why I don't like the term "Christian." Just look at what it represents, by visiting the site. Such views could be considered parallel to those of Hitler, Stalin, etc. Just remember what the Christian Coallition tried to accomplish a few years back.

2-1B
04-24-2002, 03:06 AM
there is a site I like to visit called Family.org

I enjoy having a laugh there too from time to time, to see how they misrepresent some music and movies that I enjoy. :D

Jargo
04-24-2002, 07:55 AM
Places like that make me wish for the warmth and safety of a padded cell. secure, protected from the madness of the ouside world, regular feeds, mind altering medication so i don't have to think about anything at all. A very attractive prospect.

SithDroid
04-24-2002, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


True, however, the Earth has always been a violent place in terms of "natural disasters" and consequently a dangerous place for organisms of all types to thrive in. At the distinct risk of getting REALLY controversial, you could apply the same logic above to Hitler. In no way would I ever intend to support his atrocities, however, just imagine the state of the planet today, 50 odd years after his regime, if he hadn't killed off 6 million potential parents. If those 6 million spawned 12 million, and those 12 million spawned 24, and those spawned 48 and so on and so on. You get the point. Perhaps "nature" "creates" a genocidal maniac every once in while to control population as well. Who knows. As much as we humans like to think we are above it all, we are just as much a part of the ecosystem as everything else.

Oh, and thanks for the support. These are touchy waters for most people and it is always tricky to wade into them.

Basically that is what I was hinting at when I said War, I just didn't want to specify.

Dryanta
04-24-2002, 11:22 AM
Hey guys.I've sat back and watched this thread take off.I and too really do appreciate everyones self control in the posts here.I will try and respond to everything that has been posted from the stand point of a born again christian.Be frowarned it will be based on what the Bible has to say on things brought up here,because that is waht the thread was about to begin with.
You will not like the answers given,but don't blame me.I didn't write it just believe it.If the thread starts to deteriorate I will no longer participate because that is the last thing these discussions should do.Agreed?Let me know.If we proceed it will not be one very long drawn out explaination of 5 pages of postes.No one one wants that.It will come as time allows.
To stillakid,I know you have been asking Jesufreak to respond to the letter you posted ealy in the thread.So on that issue I will ask if you would like me to try and respond.If not I will respectfully stay away from your questions.O.K.?
I'll watch the thread til morning and going on how you all would like to proceed I will either start my attempt or leave it alone.Up to you.Thanks.

stillakid
04-24-2002, 02:09 PM
Of course you're free to post whatever you would like! :) However, simply backing up your "arguments" with a source like the Bible isn't good enough, because that source in and of itself is the issue. It's like defining a word with itself. "Such and such is true because the Bible says so," doesn't cut it. Most of us (myself included) are one religion or another simply because of the society we just happened to be born into and the family that raised us. If any of us had, for example, been born and raised as a nomad in the deserts of Afghanistan, then we would think that Christians everywhere had it out for us lately.

So, your comments, like everyone's, are always welcome, but as my first post intended, be expected to back up what you say with more than religious rhetoric, because in the end, not a soul on this planet really knows any more than what's in front of our own noses. We have faith that there is more out there spiritually speaking, but nobody knows a thing.

So, in terms of those questions, I was just curious if such a Biblical scholar, as Jesusfreak seems to be, has a clever way out of the, shall we say, less up-to-date suggestions that the Bible has for us to find a way into heaven. Calling into question just one part of such a holy book as the Bible brings it's entire credibility into question. I don't think that anyone doubts the underlying theme of being loving to one another, but it is the specific tactics used by those who wield the Book like a sword to slay all those who don't believe as they do, that are the problem.

jeddah
04-24-2002, 03:01 PM
Hi again :)

Stillakid, I have also often pondered on the overpopulation issue and it does form a nice tidy argument, if somewhat dumbed down. I remember thinking about the sex changes that some (predominantly fishes) organisms go through when there is an imbalance in the local population gender but anyway....

Just to come back to a coupla points (without trying to revert this back to sexuality :rolleyes: ;))


They say that they don't want homosexual members. That's their right. Now what praytell, is the rationale for somebody, anybody, to join that group if they don't agree with that tenent?

It's not about joining any club, it's about a majority using oppressive language and beliefs against a minority. How would a jewish person feel if we told them to forget about the holocaust as no-one was asking them to join Nazism? My (black) partner is offended by the KKK but that's not because he wants to join it but doesn't agree with their take on blacks. Now, I know Christianity is not hunting down the homosexuals and killing them, but that doesn't mean there should be apologists for their views.


Assuming that the express purpose of any biological organism is to reproduce

Assuming is no good. Is it a sin to process coffee for caffeine? To genetically manipulate certain types of organisms as their taste/shelf life is more enjoyable? I have heard this argument since I can remember. Fortunately we can't live on the premise that the Human species is here simply to procreate, if we did, we'd live a life sans luxuries

well...that's it...

jeddah

Dryanta
04-24-2002, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the reply stillakid.You would rather for me not to try and explain the comments you posted taken from the bible with the bible?Maybe you should have thought more closely about being the second person in this thread to quote it.Out of context and incomplete I might add.
the fact is I do know alot more than what is front of my nose.And so do you.I don't have the luxury of making up my belief system and being an instant expert.
We all make our choices of what to believe, our up bringing and society does have alot to do with it but not all.You share the exact same beliefs as your Parents?Nor do I.
Please take no offense to this post it's not intended to mean spirited in anyway.I guess my points are this,JesusFreak I appreciate your enthusiasm about your faith.But you are told to be prepared with an answer for your faith anytime anywhere.And to the others,I haven't seen much of anything in some of these posts to show me that you have enough knowledge of the bible to critizize.See what I mean?I'll respect your wishes and walk away from the issue.
Let just end by saying I really have nothing but respect and a level of affection for everyone here.I hope after this thread is long forgotten the same can be said by you regarding me.

Bosskman
04-24-2002, 05:24 PM
These are MY arguments, I've listened to yours now here is mine. I HAVE to say this and am fully prepared for any type of insult and reproach anyone wants to throw at me. I KNOW that there is more to this world than what we see and what we hear. That doesn't require faith. All of the arguments I have heard for a strict material origin for the universe are severely defficient in the logic department. Knowing that God loves you and and knowing the difference between right and wrong and knowing about Heaven and Hell, and other matters of religion require faith. I know these things because I have faith. Faith isn't something you can just have, it is given by God. If you ask for it, He'll give it to you. Creation is HIS, and on HIS terms not ours. Believing in something doesn't make it true. There is only one truth. Things are how they are. For those who use the "there are all sorts of religions" argument, all major religions have elements of this one truth in them. For my purposes I'll use the term "Catholic" to describe what many people call "Christanity", the reason being is that "Catholic" means "universal", how things were in the biginning, are now and ever shall be, in all places, how God is, rather than the actual practice of Christianity which has only been around since Christ came 2000 years ago. The difference between other religions and Catholicism is this: Pagan religions (Hinduism, Buddism, Daoism, Shinto, etc ) are the result of people searching for truth, not unlike the arguments provided by stillakid, and others. Because of this human element, the truths they find are distorted for various reasons (lack of knowledge, wilfull ignorance, intervention by malevolent beings). With Catholicism, beginning in the old testament with His covenant with the Jews, God began revealing Himself to humans, and this revelation was completed in Christ. The Bible records this relationship between God and man. Judaism is not wrong, it is merely incomplete. Protestant sects have varrying degrees of truth in them, (some more than others) and their Baptism is valid. Other religions, such as Islam and Voodoo, and Peyote Cults, incorporated parts of Catholicism with various Pagan elements. This is the way things are. There is nothing here that contradicts any generally accepted scientific theory, regarding the origin of species, the age of the universe, etc.... Not believing does not make it untrue.

mylow thehutt
04-24-2002, 05:42 PM
wow this is soo cool i too am a christian,i too admire what you are doing also,what church do you go too,i go too liverpool community church,hope too hear more.thanks and god bless to you too:D

SirSteve
04-24-2002, 05:50 PM
Just a reminder that I don't mind what is posted but we have to be careful as this thread is on the border line due to it bringing up so many different aspects. I'd hate to close this thread so speak your peace but be nice. :)

Dryanta
04-24-2002, 06:08 PM
Hey Steve,
I was wondering when you'd make an appearence.It's going very well and I think it'll stay that way.Right guys.And Hey Mylow.glad you could make it

bigbarada
04-24-2002, 07:59 PM
I tend to see the Old Testament as more of a historical accounting of the events leading up to Jesus' birth. Sure there are things we can learn from it, like all of history; but the meat and potatoes (so to speak) of Christianity comes from the New Testament. I don't dismiss the Old Testament, in fact it is the focus of some of my most recent studies. It is as equally important to know as the New Testament, as long as everything is taken in context.

A modern analogy: in the "old west" days of 19th century America, stealing a horse was a crime punishable by hanging because a horse was the source of people's livelyhood. Nowadays stealing a horse is still considered grand theft; but it would be ridiculous to put someone to death for it. Why not, since it was punishable by death a hundred and fifty years ago? Simple, and you all know the answer, because times change. So are we to abolish all historical record of that law from our books? No, because it offers an insight into what life was like back in the 1800s. Hence the need to keep the Old Testament and study it, it offers insight into the events leading up to Jesus' birth.

A quick acknowledgement of many arguments here about religion being simply a matter of where you were raised: I will admit that I was raised a Baptist, my dad being a Baptist preacher. However, seeing many churches from behind the scenes and the rampant corruption gave me a very bad taste in my mouth for all religion in general. When I joined the Army, I decided to see what I was missing and studied a little into Catholicism, Judaism, a little bit of Muslim, some Wiccan, some Satanism and even a little bit of Witchcraft. However, there was always something missing in my life that I just couldn't place. When I got out of the Army recently, I began digging through all of my dad's old theology books and what have I learned? I still don't trust organized religion; but I have a new personal relationship with Jesus Christ which has given my life a new meaning and fulfillment that I don't see how I was able to live without before.

I know this probably doesn't answer all of the skeptics' questions; but I can only speak from my own personal experience and what Jesus has done for me. I cannot answer for why this Catholic person thinks this or why that Jewish person thinks that. If you want to know more about me, fine ask away. If you want to know more about why Pope John Paul or Dr. Laura thinks this or that, ask them.

stillakid
04-24-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
I know these things because I have faith. Faith isn't something you can just have, it is given by God. If you ask for it, He'll give it to you.


Hmm.

Let's replace the word God with the variable X.

"I know these things because I have faith (in X). Faith isn't something you can just have, it is given by X."

It's a bit like a Escher painting. You have faith of the thing you believe in because the thing you believe in gave you the faith to believe in it.

The entire rest of your faith is based on that rather confusing foundation.

In any case, I don't mean to dismiss the idea of a higher power at all, despite what you might interpret my intentions to be. The fact of the matter is that I very much DO believe that there is (was) a single consciousness that was not only responsible for all of this (everything around us including us), but actually IS everything that is around us including us. We'll call "it" "God" for the sake of simplicity (at the risk of the attached baggage on the label). It, God, isn't a supernatural force that lets men walk on water or miraculously cure people or otherwise break the observable laws that govern the Universe. (There's more to my personal growing theory, but to go into it right now isn't necessary and takes the discussion off on a tangent.)

So, and I am not alone, I don't mean in anyway to disrespect anyone's personal beliefs, but hearing language like "Jesus Christ loves me," or "He works in my life," or getting preached to with quotes from Scripture usually causes this reaction (for many people): :rolleyes:

Now if you're talking about "Jesus" as a way of life and not some mystical spirit (old man with the rulebook), then sure, it makes sense to say something like "the concept of JC works in my life, etc". But I have a suspicion that most people who speak in those terms aren't looking at it from the "thematic" standpoint and rather from a very literal one, like this spirit floats down and helps out with problems on occasion.

Let's see, what else was there...oh yeah. "Pagan religions"? "Valid baptisms"? :rolleyes: You know, the only reason Christianity got a foothold at all was because of the "death cults" that most people at that time subscribed to. Except for a few, the idea that you could have an afterlife was a distant dream. Wham! Along comes this idea that ANYONE could get there. Who wouldn't jump on that bandwagon? Suddenly hope for the huddled masses. Follow the rules, get an afterlife. Not a bad deal. But this doesn't, and couldn't, negate the validity of the other "pagan" beliefs or any of the "incomplete" religions. It was just another idea, one that happened to be more attractive than the alternatives at the time. Heck, look at today's world. What do the Mormons have to say about the rest of us? Pretty much what many of you are saying about the other "religions" around the world. The Jews believe that they're right and that Christians have it wrong. Catholics think they have it right and Mormons think they've got it wrong. So who's right? When does this progression of prophets stop? If you're so sure that "the Bible" is correct, what's better for the Bible than added chapters (provided by LDS)? The more the merrier.

It's not skepticism of the concept of a god that I have, rather the willingness to step outside of the box that I was brought up inside, to see the whole picture. Check out Joseph Campbell for instance. The man made comparative religions his life work. The true answers are as plain as day, but it is this continued divisiveness, calling a single religion the ONE and believing that the rest are phony, that causes so much trouble in the world.

SithDroid
04-24-2002, 11:36 PM
I love reading your posts stillakid. It's nice to see that someone is at least putting thought behind what they are saying.

bigbarada
04-24-2002, 11:51 PM
I read most of Joseph Campbell's book and basically didn't agree with any of his conclusions. In fact, thanks for introducing me to the term "Rube Goldbergian," stillakid, because that's all I can make of most of his theories.

Why do most mythologies include a Great Flood story? Maybe it's because there actually was a Great Flood thousands of years ago. Can we prove there wasn't? Why are most of the dinosaur fossils thrashing about? Don't they look a lot like they are drowning? If a dinosaur dies on dry land, the ground it imprints will not become fossilized with it's remains. Animals will pick the carcass clean and trample the impression off the ground. It can't be formed through molten rock encasing the animal, since that would simply vaporize the animal not to mention destroy impressions left by feathers which can be plainly seen on fossilized birds.

Getting back to the flood, afterwards one family survives. This family has one member who took to heart all the millions of lives that God wiped out in those 40 days and 40 nights. In fact, he never forgave this tyrannical diety of what he could only see as mass murder. Thus he decided to spit in this God's face and continue the pagan practices and beliefs that God sought to wipe from the earth. This new religion spread quickly mostly based on this one man's children and one particular grandson, named Nimrod. Over the years Nimrod lead a majority of the population of this new world in an open revolt against God. Thus God decided to put an end to this when mankind built a tower to reach heaven, the Tower of Babel. God confused the speach of all mankind and they spread out across the earth. Taking the same stories, the same customs and the same religion, only now broken up into many different languages.

This is why I believe that all mythology is so similar, it simply all originated in the same place. It's not some bizarre psychological phenomenon, it is simply history.

This is my idea of how things happened, and if you take into account that most of the ancient religions are a variation of that original paganism (simply referring to the worship of many gods, the definition of 'pagan'). Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese pagan, Jewish pagan, Celtic, Mexican, Mayan, Aztec and Catholicism, etc. all have too many parallels to that one original religion for it to be mere coincidence.

Like I said before, I don't put any stock in organized religions. Religions are led by humans and humans mislead and corrupt.

I would also not be so quick about calling ancient people "simple." The Egyptian and Sumerian calendar are accurate to within less than a second compared to ours. And those were created by simply observing the stars and moon. Egyptians created the great pyramids which still baffle modern architects as to how a "primitive" people could create such a thing. Mayan cities were separated by dense jungle with no roads. However there are landing strips and drawings, that can only be understood from the sky, on the ground around these cities. Hot-air balloons and skydiving technology was well within the capability of that culture. Ancient maps found in India depict, with astounding accuracy, the entire continent of Antarctica. The first computer was created in ancient Greece, it was an adding machine that used pulleys and gears to compute answers.

Ancient people "simple?" I don't believe that for a minute.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
I love reading your posts stillakid. It's nice to see that someone is at least putting thought behind what they are saying.

Thank you. I'm not saying that I'm right. I'm not saying that I'm wrong. I'm saying that nobody really knows what's going on yet.

Like most people, I was raised Catholic in a small Mid-west town. Church on Sundays. I went to public school through 8th grade so there was Catechism (can't even spell it, hmm?) on Wednesdays. Nothing too "religious." Just the basics.

Then off to a Jesuit High School. No major brow-beating there, despite what you might think. Just lots of homework! Anyway, sometime around Jr. year or so, they introduced a Religious History class, which essentially was designed to explore why Christians do what they do and believe what they believe. Lo and behold (and I wasn't the only one), my eyes were beginning to open. I found that I didn't really believe everything that I was expected to. It's easy to sit in the pew and say the lines and stand up and sit down on cue, but to really believe it all is something else. I didn't. It's not really something you can make yourself do if you care enough about being sincere.

That was the beginning, if you want to put it that way. The class, I believe, had the opposite effect of the one intended. In any case, the damage was done. My journey to shed the rhetoric and try to find some real answers was on. A friend of mine that I met in college has quite the analytical mind in regards to science and religion and society, etc. I don't agree with everything he settles on, but his ideas are intriguing enough to consider. So, I've combined some of that with independent reading, talking with others, listening to others, and am coming up with what I believe is some kind of basic fundamental truth about the nature of, well, everything. Paint-by-the-numbers religious thought is a crutch that a lot of people need in order to cope with a confusing world and that's just fine just so long as it doesn't spill into dangerous territory as we've seen so recently. I think that there are some fundamental truths that scientific research can one day uncover. Those discoveries could alter the bubbling froth that sits atop most religions, but I think that there is a common foundation that exists within all religions that is at the very heart of how THIS all came to be and why it is here. The ideas that I express aren't new...aren't groundbreaking. But they do threaten the "safety" that common religious thinking provides for a lot of people. It's hard to step away from home...the familiar...and stretch for a true understanding. Who knows? Maybe my own quest will bring me right back "into the fold." I have no idea, but what's really important is that no one else does either.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I read most of Joseph Campbell's book and basically didn't agree with any of his conclusions. In fact, thanks for introducing me to the term "Rube Goldbergian," stillakid, because that's all I can make of most of his theories.

Why do most mythologies include a Great Flood story? Maybe it's because there actually was a Great Flood thousands of years ago. Can we prove there wasn't? Why are most of the dinosaur fossils thrashing about? Don't they look a lot like they are drowning? If a dinosaur dies on dry land, the ground it imprints will not become fossilized with it's remains. Animals will pick the carcass clean and trample the impression off the ground. It can't be formed through molten rock encasing the animal, since that would simply vaporize the animal not to mention destroy impressions left by feathers which can be plainly seen on fossilized birds.

Getting back to the flood, afterwards one family survives. This family has one member who took to heart all the millions of lives that God wiped out in those 40 days and 40 nights. In fact, he never forgave this tyrannical diety of what he could only see as mass murder. Thus he decided to spit in this God's face and continue the pagan practices and beliefs that God sought to wipe from the earth. This new religion spread quickly mostly based on this one man's children and one particular grandson, named Nimrod. Over the years Nimrod lead a majority of the population of this new world in an open revolt against God. Thus God decided to put an end to this when mankind built a tower to reach heaven, the Tower of Babel. God confused the speach of all mankind and they spread out across the earth. Taking the same stories, the same customs and the same religion, only now broken up into many different languages.

This is why I believe that all mythology is so similar, it simply all originated in the same place. It's not some bizarre psychological phenomenon, it is simply history.

This is my idea of how things happened, and if you take into account that most of the ancient religions are a variation of that original paganism (simply referring to the worship of many gods, the definition of 'pagan'). Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese pagan, Jewish pagan, Celtic, Mexican, Mayan, Aztec and Catholicism, etc. all have too many parallels to that one original religion for it to be mere coincidence.

Like I said before, I don't put any stock in organized religions. Religions are led by humans and humans mislead and corrupt.

I would also not be so quick about calling ancient people "simple." The Egyptian and Sumerian calendar are accurate to within less than a second compared to ours. And those were created by simply observing the stars and moon. Egyptians created the great pyramids which still baffle modern architects as to how a "primitive" people could create such a thing. Mayan cities were separated by dense jungle with no roads. However there are landing strips and drawings, that can only be understood from the sky, on the ground around these cities. Hot-air balloons and skydiving technology was well within the capability of that culture. Ancient maps found in India depict, with astounding accuracy, the entire continent of Antarctica. The first computer was created in ancient Greece, it was an adding machine that used pulleys and gears to compute answers.

Ancient people "simple?" I don't believe that for a minute.

Except for using the stories as actual history, I agree with all of that with no problem. There most likely was a flood...in that area. In those days, the "universe" was only as large as their own experience, so to have a large flood would seem like the world was coming to an end. And, yes, early people's did accomplish remarkable feats that we wonder about today, but even earlier people's didn't. (Unless you think that the Earth is only 10,000 years old, in which case there were no earlier peoples.)

But, yeah, as I've said, I think that there is a common thread running through all major religions. It is that that points to a fundamental truth. But, as they say, the devil is in the details, and that, as you've wisely pointed out, is the problem with organized religion.:)

SithDroid
04-25-2002, 12:14 AM
I don't really want to get into the whole discussion of evolution vs. religion, but I do have a comment and question I'd like to make.

If Adam and Eve were supposedly the only two people that everyone is decended from, then does that mean that if I marry someone that I am in fact marrying a "family" member or "descendant through blood?" I thought this kind of behavior was frowned upon within the church.

Just an observation mind you.

bigbarada
04-25-2002, 01:08 AM
Genetical studies have proven that we are all decended from one woman, referred to as "the Eve theory." There were other species of human on the earth at one time (Neanderthals being one); but all those species became extinct at the exact same time with our paritcular strain being the only survivor, referred to as "the Noah's Ark theory."

Sleeping with sisters and cousins would have been necessary in those days in order to populate the earth. Which suggests that our particular DNA was much more pure in those days and at this moment in time we, as a species, are uglier, stupider and more flawed that at any other point in history. This also goes along with the Law of Thermodynamics called "entropy," which basically states that the entire universe is in a steady state of degradation. That should apply to our DNA also.

"The Church" as you refer to it, Sithdroid, is exactly the kind of organization that twists and manipulates God's laws into what we refer to today as organized religion. My personal definition of organized religion is man taking God's word and perverting it for his own benefit and power.

I was beginning to think that you had stopped reading my posts, stillakid. I'm also glad to see that we have reached some common ground, even though the source of our beliefs differ.

I would recommend you read The Two Babylons, by Rev. Alexander Hislop. It is an eye-opening dissection of modern Christianity, namely Catholicism, that outlines the pagan roots of most Christian customs and traditions. Things like Christmas, Easter, Lent, the Pope, Priests, nuns, the Sacred Heart, even the symbol of the Cross are traced back to their roots and revealed to be part of the worship of Nimrod and his mother/wife.

I recommend all Christians read it also, as it reveals that you might have been worshipping the wrong god all this time.

2-1B
04-25-2002, 03:08 AM
Hold on here, I don't see how people can slam Catholicism for being pagan and man-made, etc. while clinging to their bibles as "the truth".

1) Catholic rituals based in pagan roots: no surprise there, easiest way to spread the faith is to slip it in with traditonal local customs. I'm Catholic and find nothing surprising about that. Halloween? Sure, if I find a group of people who celebrate a festival like Samhain, why not slip in a day afterward to honor supposedly exemplary Christians? I've even read Lent described as pagan, even though they have that whole 40 Days/Nights passage (insert Josh Hartnett reference here).

2) Catholicism as man-made lies and such - that's a fair stance, but not when a person cites the Bible as his or her standard. Catholic tradition = man made laws. Biblical texts = man written documents. One can claim traditions are false because they are not from God, but then you must concede that biblical writings are not "from God" either. What's that? The Bible was inspired by God? Okay, so was Church tradition. It's back and forth, can't prove either stance.

3)I have yet to see Catholicism successfully disproven by other Christians (note I did not say by nonChristians). In general, they use the same bible, how can they be so completely off base? If I go to a Catholic service, I'm gonna find two main points: a liturgy of the word, with 3 readings from the same book someone like bigbarada would cite as God's word, followed by the actual Mass that someone cited earlier (Bosskman?). Like it or not, that inspiration for the Mass is found in the same bible. I'm not saying you should believe it because it's in your bible, I'm just saying that it's there. People can argue all day over the interpretaion of these sequences and their true meaning, but calling much of it "pagan" is way off base.

4) I see Catholicism is linked in earlier with other pagan religions, I presume you mean in the multi-god sense. How so? The saints? Mary? That's an old argument, one I've never seen merit in. If a nonCatholic Christian would look at those practices for what they are, it's obvious that they share the same god: Jesus/God. The rest is just details.

5) The Pope? Got that from the Bible too. Again, you may disagree with the interpretation of Pete as the pope but you should objectively realize it's the current explanation; again found in the same book.

6) Rev. Alexander Hislop - Reverend to whom? If an organized body bestowed this title, shouldn't we be suspicious of his title? Show me Hislop and a Catholic might show you Ralph Woodrow. :)

I'm not even using the above post as a reflection of my personal beliefs, rather it's how I see the continuing rift between various sects of Christianity. So people interpret ancient faith based writings differently - that's cool, most of us can't even agree on Star Wars, it's natural that religion would lead to even greater debate. :D

Bosskman
04-25-2002, 07:56 AM
Just to add to Caesar's post, most of which I wholeheartedly agree with. Big Barada, Catholicism is in no way a "many gods religion". The Saints, Mary included, are not gods. They were never thought of, by Catholic as gods. (some Voodoo people think of them as gods but that's a totally different story) Saints are simply people who are recognized as being in Heaven. They comprise what is know to us as the Church Triumphant, those people who have attained the Beatific Vision in Heaven. (People on Earth are the Church Militant, and people in Purgatory are the Church Suffering) Every person in Heaven is a Saint. Most of them, however, are unknown to us on Earth and that is why the Church celebrates All Hallows, or All Saints day. That day was inserted into the Samhein season because it merely served to reinforce the good and supplant the bad aspects of that particular celtic festival. If you or anyone you know gets or has gotten to Heaven, you are a Saint. Saints intercede for us with God. When Catholics pray to Saints we are not worshipping them, we are asking for their intercession with God. Also, Stillakid, the concept of an afterlife is 90% universal, it is the concept of a good afterlife that those death cults of ancient Rome were promoting that made them so appealing and they undoubtedly had an effect on Christianity's growth. That is where the logic of your argument stops. Just because those COULD have been a CONTRIBUTING factor to spreading state acceptance of Christiantiy, doesn't mean that it was the sole contributor, or even the principal one. The whole "variable X" argument of yours is just a question of semantics. God is what we call Him, others call him Dieu, Gat, Deus, Allah, Great Spirit, Yaweh, or, in your case, variable X. The idea that you subscibe to that this variable X and the universe are one in the same is called "Pantheism" it is not something that is unique to you. Many pagan religions have subscibed to it for millenia, namely Hinduism. If you want to see the logical inconsistencies that are inherrent in this theory that the creator and the created are the same you could read up on apologetics. The entropy BB was talking about rears its head here in a BIG way.

Jedi Teacher
04-25-2002, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by stillakid

You know, the only reason Christianity got a foothold at all was because of the "death cults" that most people at that time subscribed to. Except for a few, the idea that you could have an afterlife was a distant dream. Wham! Along comes this idea that ANYONE could get there. Who wouldn't jump on that bandwagon? Suddenly hope for the huddled masses. Follow the rules, get an afterlife. Not a bad deal. .

I respectfully disagree Stillakid. Think about the beginnings of Christianity. There's this guy, Jesus, who's seems just like a regular Jewish guy, until he starts telling everybody he's the son of God. This is not exactly an ok thing to do according to the religious scholars of the day, you know. Then, he performs miracles--witnessed by hundreds of people--and the religious scholars are none to pleased.

So, they come up with a plan: kill him and that will be the end of this heresy. So, a with some prompting by religious leaders, the Romans arrest Jesus and crucify him. After he dies, he is burried in a tomb and a large stone is rolled in front of it.

Now, just to make sure that his followers don't try to pull something crazy, the romans post gaurds by the tomb. Picture the position of the guard--you've been warned that the members of this "cult" may come by the tomb to steal the body--and if they do, you're dead. So you're on guard duty that night and you're going to do a pretty good job.

Except there's one huge problem. Jesus really IS the son of God! When the tomb was opened the next day, his body was gone. Not only that, but in the days to come he appeared to hundreds of people!

Now think about it, in those days neither the romans and the religious leaders wanted Christianity to spread. THey tried to do anything they could to stop it--yet it survived!

Why do you think it has survived for 2000 years after it's founder was put to death?


(sorry to get all preachy on you!)

stillakid
04-25-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Bosskman
Also, Stillakid, the concept of an afterlife is 90% universal, it is the concept of a good afterlife that those death cults of ancient Rome were promoting that made them so appealing and they undoubtedly had an effect on Christianity's growth. That is where the logic of your argument stops. Just because those COULD have been a CONTRIBUTING factor to spreading state acceptance of Christiantiy, doesn't mean that it was the sole contributor, or even the principal one. The whole "variable X" argument of yours is just a question of semantics. God is what we call Him, others call him Dieu, Gat, Deus, Allah, Great Spirit, Yaweh, or, in your case, variable X. The idea that you subscibe to that this variable X and the universe are one in the same is called "Pantheism" it is not something that is unique to you. Many pagan religions have subscibed to it for millenia, namely Hinduism. If you want to see the logical inconsistencies that are inherrent in this theory that the creator and the created are the same you could read up on apologetics. The entropy BB was talking about rears its head here in a BIG way.

True, it was a contributing factor. I should have been more clear. There is never just one reason for anything. The other contributing factors included vast armies at the command of "Christians" laying waste to foreign lands and spreading their beliefs. It takes time, but assimilation of foreign beliefs is a pattern repeated throughout the ages. Even in today's world, it isn't religion that is spreading around the globe, rather American Pop Culture through television, radio, movies, magazines, etc. I don't know for sure, but it might be safe to say that some of those "radicals" around the world see our spreading culture as a very real threat to their own religions. As they watch their children being influenced and "corrupted" by our way of life, they seek to strike back, sometimes violently, to stop it.

I do know that where I'm heading personally has already been "established" in other religions, so I didn't mean to imply that it was my own invention. In regards to the entropy discussed, now is a wonderful time to bring up the idea of the Big Bang Theory. But first, I'd like to say that there is a considerable effort by "religious" folk to drive a wedge between science and God. They can work together by virtue of the fact that if we assume that a higher power created all of this, it also created the laws that govern how it all operates. So, did a dead man "rise" and walk out of a tomb? It's probably as likely as some supernatural ghost ripping a rib out of a guy's chest and making a girl from it. God not only made the rules, He is the rules. What's the explanation for Jesus "rising" from the dead? Who knows? Lots of alternate explanations could account for the seed of the story, but it makes for a tale with impact enough to convince people that this guy was someone "otherworldly." We could argue this all year, but the easiest way out of it is to ask yourself, if you saw someone claiming to be Jesus today, would you believe him? ................(pause).............hell no. Who would? For the same reasons so many people dismiss Joseph Smith out of hand, a modern "Jesus" would be ignored or worse. People like to hang on to the traditions and beliefs that they were brought up with. Venturing outside that safety net is uncomfortable for most of us as is was for many people back in 30 AD or whenever it actually was.

Oh, so I was going to go into the Big Bang thing, but have realized that it is too complicated a discussion for here. Suffice it to say, that as much as "science" leans on that theory, most scientists realize that it probably is wrong, but they use it because they just haven't come up with anything better...yet. There are suggestions of a different, more likely, scenario for the creation of the Universe that we see around us, that doesn't have the pitfalls (including the entropy problems) of the Big Bang Theory.

If you want to live out your life believing that God just waves his magic wand and POOF's things into existence, then that is your perojative. I like to think that His power is far greater and far subtler than any of that. He paints the canvas with a fine tipped brush, not with sloppy broad strokes. Why is that so difficult (or scary) to accept?

2-1B
04-25-2002, 12:04 PM
"death cults" - very interesting. Wasn't the issue of afterlife a point of difference within Judaism? I thought there were different views, pro and con, but I'm not sure who claimed what (Sadducees vs. Pharisees maybe?). I think that's why procreation was so important to many people, they saw their extended life not as a place but the continuation of their offspring. I'll have to do a bit of searching . . .

:)

Bosskman
04-25-2002, 01:43 PM
Stillakid, I agree with your last statement completely. God didn't just wave the proverbial magic wand and poof things into existence. His creation is so complex that I doubt that anybody can even come close to understanding it in this lifetime. The account of creation in book of Genesis was never meant to be taken literally. It is merely sets the stage for what follows. There HAD to be a first man. Whether the first man, name was Adam and the first woman's name was Eve, nobody alive knows. Did God actually make the first woman out of a rib? Did He physically pick up a lump of clay in His hands and form people and birds and beasts the way a human makes a clay figure? Are beasts today look like beasts that lived at the dawn of creation? Did it thake 7 24 hour intervals for God to make everything? "Probably not" would be my answer to all of these questions, but the essence of the account is not any less true and that God is the creator of the universe. He set in motion whatever it was that turned into us and what we see around us. HOW he actually physically did it is not important, it is incidental. Is it important to you HOW people make Star Wars figures? It isn't to me. They're sitting on my shelf for me to play with. That's all I care about. ( I don't mean to sound fecisious I'm just making an analogy) And for the record most people didn't believe that Jesus was who He said He was back when He walked the Earth in human form.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
HOW he actually physically did it is not important, it is incidental. Is it important to you HOW people make Star Wars figures? It isn't to me. They're sitting on my shelf for me to play with. That's all I care about. ( I don't mean to sound fecisious I'm just making an analogy) And for the record most people didn't believe that Jesus was who He said He was back when He walked the Earth in human form.

Ah, see, I think that it is very important to learn how He did it. How come? Figuring out the how would reveal the machinery that makes all of THIS work. Scientist's facitiously named their "holy grail" the "God Particle." You see, I believe that if we can discover exactly HOW this whole thing works, we can then point to something tangible that describes WHAT God is, and only then can humanity begin to put away all of the petty differences that revolve around whose religion is the correct one and other related conjecture.

I shake my head in wonder everytime I hear the Middle East described as "the Holy Land." As if it were magically "blessed" or something. Show me a miracle fountain that magically cures people and then we'll start calling it "holy." Until then, it's just another region of the planet, with dirt, plants, rocks, little creatures... There's nothing special about it, except for a few million lunatics who have deemed it to be extra-special enough to kill for it. Hey, beachfront property in Malibu, I could understand ;) , but for cryin' out loud, they're fighting over dirt.

Nothing will solve these ridiculous disagreements until humanity does away with standardized religious rhetoric, rolls up it's sleeves, and really digs in deep to try to understand this Universe at it's most fundamental and ellusive levels. Until then, watch your back for the next wave of suicide bombings all in the name of God.

DeadEye
04-25-2002, 03:02 PM
Whoa, we're at 100 replies already! :sur:

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 03:03 PM
Hey guys.Still going great.I guess I'm in the minority here.I believe the Creation account in the book of Genesis word for word.Same with Noah's ark later on in the same book.I personally feel 180 degrees from I think most of you..I think mans feeble attempts at explaining creation is stuffing God in a box.Man looks for tangible evidence of everything.That is what I find restrictive.I personally find my view piont on the issue more opened minded than relieing on Scientists, with their own motives most of the time,To explain everything for meThat is a box that is built out of our own limited intellects.I really do find Evolutionary theory and a few other scientific arenas to be religions unto themselves.So if all of the viewpoints that have been shared about organized religion are pertanent to Bible based beliefs than the same should be said for science.Once upon a time science and religion did coexist much better than it does now.Before science had an agenda as strong as religion does.I really don't have any problem at all with the creation account. If I personally could look at the very first chapter of the book and write it of as poetic or alagory then it would be even easier for me to continue on thru doing the same to the rest of it at a faster rate."I really don't that,so I'll call it Poetic"
"That there puts too many demands on me so I'll call it Alagory"
This is not a slam at anyone just the way I personally look at it.I really am proud of the way this whole topic has been handled here.I think everyone has been able to put forth their opinions in a very respectful manor.Thanks so much for that.

JetsAndHeels
04-25-2002, 03:31 PM
I feel the same way, Dryanta. I am a Christian and I believe in the Bible. I dont know the book from cover to cover, but I do believe it is valid and is accurate. To me, something as complex and beautiful as creation could not have just happened. No big bang, no scientific occurance, just God creating the earth. I dont see how life and nature and all of the miracles of this world could be a mistake. A divine being had a hand in it all, and in my faith that being was God. Thats just what I believe.
I dont look down on others who believe differently, because we are entitled to that, but still I think it is important that people see God in us. Now I will be the first to admit that I dont act or talk like I should alot of the time, but I am human and I know that God has forgiven me. That is the miracle of his love. Its not an excuse to sin. Its not "fire insurance" from hell. It is my salvation, plain and simple.
So that is how I feel. And I want to thank everyone on here for making this thread civil even though there are differing opinions.

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 03:54 PM
cool Jango.good to hear it.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
I feel the same way, Dryanta. I am a Christian and I believe in the Bible. I dont know the book from cover to cover, but I do believe it is valid and is accurate. To me, something as complex and beautiful as creation could not have just happened. No big bang, no scientific occurance, just God creating the earth. I dont see how life and nature and all of the miracles of this world could be a mistake. A divine being had a hand in it all, and in my faith that being was God.


I don't recall reading here that anyone suggests that this was all a mistake or just "happened" by accident. Just because it most likely didn't happen verbatim the way the Creation myth is described in the Bible doesn't mean that some sort of intelligence(?) didn't have a hand in it. That's what I've been getting at all along. Science and Creation are not mutually exclusive. The Bible can be a beautiful fictional story that explains in thematic ways the manner in which it's authors envisioned Creation and the corruption of Man without it being a historical document as if it were a newspaper. If there truly is a god, then it was he (she, it) that created everything we have, including scientific curiousity and the pursuit of understanding. An intelligence as great as the God we want to believe in is more powerful than a simple genie, "wishing" things into existence. Geesh, look at a strand of DNA? It is possible that it was a "mistake" of nature, but the complexity of it is astounding. The Bible didn't discover DNA...scientific research did. Man found that piece of the puzzle without any "holy" guidebook, but if you are to believe in a god in the first place, then you have to believe that God created DNA and the other building blocks of life. Why go to the trouble of creating such complexity when all he had to do was POOF! us here? Tossing away logical reasoning when reading a story isn't only irrational, it flies in the face of everything that we're supposed to believe God is.

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 05:00 PM
Hey stillakid somethings not right.I agree with some of what you just said :D .I still don't see it as a myth or a story but as a historical document.But that's me.;) I am glad you do not buy into the everything from nothing idea.That one I never understood at all.My point is this,you pointed out D.N.A. why would a being that could create such a thing as that not want anything to do with us?Would he not have a plan and aspirations for us?I have never in my life created anything from scratch,let alone an entire universe.If I had I'd have a whole lot to say about the way I wanted it handled and they way I wanted things done.It would cruel and and harsh to have a child and then just leave it to fend completely for itself would it not?I know from other posts that you have children and sound like a very good parent from what I've read.I have four myself.Now imagine if you had actually had to do some work to help make them;) .Would you just walk away?Would you never care enough to stop them from harming themselves or others?Do your Kids always understand the rules you set for them or do they at times find you mean?Same principle at work.How many times have you told your kids you did something and they reallydon't know what to think?It's not that they don't believe you it's that they haven't the capacity to comprehend it.This is exactly the way it is between us and god.He has put what we could handle in front of us.There is alot more we can't.Some day we will all know the deal,I think we can all agree on that:)

Eternal Padawan
04-25-2002, 05:58 PM
So God planted a seed on a barren world: "Life" as it were, and then just sat back and let it do it's own thing and here we are today. So he's not watching over us constantly and interfering and what not. it's like Earth was his Junior High Science project. he got a c+ on it and now it's in his closet on the shelf in the back.

Homosexuality. if I could quote from George Carlins comedy routine... Is it normal? Is it natural? Well, if the end result of sex is continuing the species, then homosexuality is not "natural" otherwise we'd all get two sets of goodies and be with whomever we wanted. Is it normal? Theoretically, you're in a pitch black room and rubbing somebody and they are rubbing you and it feels good and the light comes on and it's a member of the same sex we've been trained to go "AIIEEEEE!!!! :eek:" but it felt pretty good when you didnt know who it was. So it's normal.

Anyway....anybody find a Royal Guard figure? (walks away whistling)

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 06:05 PM
Yeah I found EP.It's a long shot better than the first one.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Hey stillakid somethings not right.I agree with some of what you just said :D .I still don't see it as a myth or a story but as a historical document.But that's me.;) I am glad you do not buy into the everything from nothing idea.That one I never understood at all.My point is this,you pointed out D.N.A. why would a being that could create such a thing as that not want anything to do with us?Would he not have a plan and aspirations for us?I have never in my life created anything from scratch,let alone an entire universe.If I had I'd have a whole lot to say about the way I wanted it handled and they way I wanted things done.It would cruel and and harsh to have a child and then just leave it to fend completely for itself would it not?I know from other posts that you have children and sound like a very good parent from what I've read.I have four myself.Now imagine if you had actually had to do some work to help make them;) .Would you just walk away?Would you never care enough to stop them from harming themselves or others?Do your Kids always understand the rules you set for them or do they at times find you mean?Same principle at work.How many times have you told your kids you did something and they reallydon't know what to think?It's not that they don't believe you it's that they haven't the capacity to comprehend it.This is exactly the way it is between us and god.He has put what we could handle in front of us.There is alot more we can't.Some day we will all know the deal,I think we can all agree on that:)


Damn good question! Why did he (she, it) do all this in the first place? Let's start out by agreeing that not a single one of us has a clue. We can speculate from now until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, it's a mystery.

My own opinion? I really don't know. The way I see it, there are a couple of possiblities. In order to understand them, I'll have to do a brief explanation regarding my theoretical model of the Universe (as of today, anyhow).

First off, I guess that there was nothing except for this conscious entity we'll name God. Was it a singularity the way the Big Bang Theory suggests? I don't think so anymore. Some new ideas are coming to light that suggest that the Universe we see when we look out into the reaches of space is created by two or more parallel dimensions. Sounds crazy, huh? :) Yeah, just wait, it gets better.

Now, when we look out into the vastness of space we don't see a uniform distribution of matter scattered throughout. Instead, we see galaxies and matter all "clumped" together with very very large vast empty spaces of "nothing" in-between. One possible explanation for this is that two of these dimensions have "hit" each other. Much like when a cold front meets a warm front, it causes water molecules to coalesce into bigger masses, something about these planes have caused "energy" to coalesce into matter. (I don't want to go into that too much, but for a highly detailed explanation, read The Elegant Universe: superstrings, hidden dimensions, and the quest for the ultimate theory by Brian Greene). The clumping is caused because the planes aren't slamming into each other like flat plates, rather they are kind of "waving around," like a piece of paper might if you held it with two hands and shook it. The planes don't hit everywhere, just in some areas. It is in those areas of "contact" between two planes of energy (perhaps matter and antimatter, nobody really knows yet), that "stuff" is created. So, instead of a Big Bang from a center point, the Universe itself is infinitely vast and as Einstein wanted to believe, static and unchanging.

Aha, you say, but what about the red shift that Hubble saw that suggested that the Universe is growing? Well, one big problem with the Big Bang Theory is that if it were to have happened, everything should have spread out from a central point uniformly. Both of those things are not true. The stuff out there is not uniform and there is no central point where the "explosion" could have happened. Everything in the Universe is moving away from everything else. It makes no sense. However, there is one other explanation for the red-shift that seems too crazy to consider. Everything is shrinking. Think of it this way. Suppose that the Earth and a distant star are not moving in relation to one another. When a light wave leaves that star, if nothing else moves, the size of the wave will be the same size when it arrives here on Earth as when it left the star. Now, as Hubble suggested, if the star and the Earth are moving away from one another, the light wave will stretch out by the time it reaches us, creating a red-shift (like the Doppler effect you hear when a train passes by you). However, the alternate explanation is that this is a static Universe after all, as Einstein truly believed. (He "made up" a cosmological constant to compensate for Hubble's finding, but did it begrudgingly). If the Earth is shrinking, then that light wave will still appear to be larger when it arrives here.

Okay, so what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? As these two planes hit, they create matter. As they pull apart, that matter begins to, essentially, disappear, but the energy remains intact within it's own dimension. That accounts for the incongrueties in the Big Bang Theory but how does that relate to the energy and, ultimately, God?

Remember, that the word "atom" in Greek means "indivisible." Well, that's what they thought then. Of course we know now that it was incorrect. There are numerous other smaller particles that make up an atom. The current line of thinking is that the most basic "particle" that makes up all other particles isn't really a particle of matter at all. Rather, it is a "string" of energy. An oscillating string of energy that when combined with other strings, begin to "make" matter.

Ok, so now we have the most basic "element" that exists in absolutely everything there is in the Universe, and that is "pure energy." It is my belief now that "God" is this energy. This energy isn't only used to form matter, but it also contains our consciousness, that bit of us that makes us self-aware organisms. I used to believe that at some point in the distant past, God was one cohesive "entity" and he "blew himself up" with a Big Bang. This would have suggested one of two possiblities of why. The first: if this was an expanding Universe that, due to entropy, was doomed to burn out and die, then it was a suicide. God wanted to die and exploding himself into tiny little pieces was the only way to do it. The second: If the Universe had sufficient gravity, then it would not burn out and die, and God would eventually "coalesce" back into one cohesive entity.

Why? Again, who knows. If we are He, then we have the answer within us, but since we have only a tiny sliver of Him (of the whole) in each of us, then it may be impossible to gain that knowledge until the time when our energy (souls?) are rejoined into the "energy pool." (This "energy pool" is free energy that just kind of floats around out there until it gets sucked into another organism. I don't know the mechanism, but I think that more advance organisms are some kind of "conscious energy" magnets.)

But, since this whole concept of multiple planes has come into the theoretical world and the Big Bang seems less likely, the question of why God would do any of this remains a mystery. I do know that the mechanics of the Universe is far too complex to be explained by simple mythical fiction. But if a tiny piece of God is within us, then maybe the answer to "why" can be found there instead.

Bosskman
04-25-2002, 06:28 PM
I think a major problem in all this is LANGUAGE itself. I KNOW things, I just can't find the right words to explain them to others. Judging from most of the replies I've read in this thread, you guys don't really get a lot of what I said. I just think that the transition from thought and feeling to words that are able to convey them, stuff gets mixed up and causes confusion. Suffice it to say that there is only ONE Truth. There are no alternatives. Modern society is so infused with moral relativism that it is difficult for anybody to make such claims without being branded a "fanatic" or a "lunatic". There are forces at work in this world that are out to dupe us, to confuse us, and, ultimately, to damn us. All hope in this world as it is now is lost. Acting alone, humanity can do nothing about this. There will always be greed, lust, envy, anger, pride, gluttony, and sloth in this world. These things keep us from that one Truth. Anyways, I guess that's it for me with this thread because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. I hope, someday, all of us will meet when God in His infinite mercy, renews all of creation, and we all see Him as He is, and all this petty sqabbling of ours is over.

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 06:29 PM
Great post Stillakid I've heard most of that before.What are your thoughts on the theory that the vast empty spots are not empty but partialy filled with "Black matter"?I agree that a fictional story cannot explain any of this.I do however believe that the Bible is the word of god hence all the explaination we can handle right now.You probably guessed that already;) I really do appreciate all of the time and study you have put into this.I would like to think it will eventually bring you to the conclussion that alot of serious searchers have come to.And I'm glad you are open enough to admit(in an earlier post)that you may end up in the fold.:)
Hey now that so many of us are here and paying attention,Can anyone tell this computer illiterate how to post quotes?And remember I can barely get on here and send and email:D Again guys and especially you stillakid thanks so much for handleing this whole subject so well.
As a note to all of you.When I was brand new here In like the third thread I had ever been involved in Stillakid and I were involved in a heated arguement(on the same side:D )with a individual from another site.The very first private message I ever sent was to him commending him on his adult and cool headed handleing of this situation.I'm glad beyond words he is still that way here in this thread.Thanks to you stillakid.and to everyone else as well.I just thought you might find it funny,Ironic or just plain stupid:crazed:
Sorry booskman your post came up while I was writing this and I didn't see until After I posted this one.I know exactly what you are saying and I agree with most of it.I'm a Baptist afterall;)
You are right ,there enough emotions and from the Christian perspective IMHO concern for people that my words as well don't translate perfectly from my brain to all of your monitors.We are all playing a bit of a word game with each other anyway.It's a sign that we are all approaching this subject with enough respect to make our points as clear as we each individually can manage.

jw_bryant
04-25-2002, 07:11 PM
ok, here we go.
to get this:

Originally posted by Dryanta:

Can anyone tell this computer illiterate how to post quotes?



you type :
{quote}{i}Originally posted by Dryanta:{/i}
{b}
Can anyone tell this computer illiterate how to post quotes?
{/b}
{/quote}

only you replace { with [ and } with ].
basiclly, the {b} tag opens bold, and the {/b} tag closes it.
{b} is bold, {i} is italic, {u} is underline, and {s} is strikeout.
if you want a link, do {url}hyperlink text{/url}.
ill post more if you need it. :)

EDIT:how did do that on my old name? :rolleyes:

Dryanta
04-25-2002, 07:19 PM
My nephew,some hot shot.Now he's coming over here this weekend to explain all of what he just said

jw_bryant
04-25-2002, 07:26 PM
if you say so ... :p

DeadEye
04-25-2002, 09:18 PM
I never knew that. :)

stillakid
04-25-2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Great post Stillakid I've heard most of that before.What are your thoughts on the theory that the vast empty spots are not empty but partialy filled with "Black matter"?

First, thanks! I really do try to be fair with my judgements of others and attempt to be crystal clear about my own thoughts. It isn't always easy, but in the end it's worth the extra time.

As far as the black matter, I have no idea. And neither do "they." The "clumping" is one of those big ol' confusing things about this Universe we live in. The more we learn about it, the more we realize just how much we don't know.

But, just as Einstein sort of revolutionized thought in his day, I think that we're due for another major "breakthrough" in science (probably particle physics) sometime in the next 50 years. We kind of know what we know at this point, but keep discovering oddities that don't fit into any of the past models. It will take some genius somewhere that is going to pop up out of nowhere to advance our knowledge a giant step forward.

Imagine, maybe we'll discover how to travel through space or space/time itself! Travelling to distant places by skipping all of that empty space would be mind-boggling. It won't happen for any of us, but the continual search for the truth about how this Universe actually functions may lead to some amazing feats for humanity. But the greatest feat of all would be to find out just what all this God stuff really is, without preconceptions, without "holy" books, or "holy" men. There is an answer out there. We just have to be brave enough to step away from our earthly religious bias and find it.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by jw_bryant
ok, here we go.
to get this:


you type :
{quote}{i}Originally posted by Dryanta:{/i}
{b}
Can anyone tell this computer illiterate how to post quotes?
{/b}
{/quote}

only you replace { with [ and } with ].
basiclly, the {b} tag opens bold, and the {/b} tag closes it.
{b} is bold, {i} is italic, {u} is underline, and {s} is strikeout.
if you want a link, do {url}hyperlink text{/url}.
ill post more if you need it. :)

EDIT:how did do that on my old name? :rolleyes:

....or, you could just hit that little button that says "quote" at the bottom of each post! ;)

Jason B
04-25-2002, 09:54 PM
yeah, but he wanted a general explaination of the vBB coding.

stillakid
04-25-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Jason B
yeah, but he wanted a general explaination of the vBB coding.

oohhhh:sur:

JetsAndHeels
04-26-2002, 08:27 AM
Stillakid, I know that no one suggested the creation as a mistake or random happening. I was just simply stating that I believe God had the hand in it. He created the earth, the heavens, and all living beings. Science seems to conflict with that. My point is that I believe in the creation that is told of in Genesis.

stillakid
04-26-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid, I know that no one suggested the creation as a mistake or random happening. I was just simply stating that I believe God had the hand in it. He created the earth, the heavens, and all living beings. Science seems to conflict with that. My point is that I believe in the creation that is told of in Genesis.


Boy, you guys just aren't getting this at all. God IS science. If he created us and everything, then He created Science too. The only thing that science conflicts with is a literal interpretation of the Bible. I think you're still operating with that vision of an old man up there with his rulebook who sits outside of it all. He's a part of all of this. He may very well BE all of this. Why does He have to be all about a hocus-pocus-Poof!-it's-now-here kind of mentality? I'm just not getting this extremist literal interpretation of the Bible? All I can surmise from it is a general fear that if just one portion of it is deemed "myth" then the whole rest of it is called into question, which puts your entire belief system in jeopardy. Quite frankly, it's a frightening thought that so many people take these stories so literally.



Originally posted by Dryanta
I would like to think it will eventually bring you to the conclussion that alot of serious searchers have come to.And I'm glad you are open enough to admit(in an earlier post)that you may end up in the fold.


And, this started to bother me as well. I am open to the idea that nobody really knows anything, so I am open to the idea that there is an outside chance (way way way outside chance) that God did simply POOF! things into existence in 7 days etc etc. However, there is a disturbing tunnel-vision from "religious" types who are very closed-minded about considering the possiblity that the Bible stories of Creation are nothing more than myth. You guys seem so afraid to step outside of that comfort zone that you're willing to put all logical consideration aside for the sake of a sense of security. It would be really comforting to see a literalist take the plunge and step away from that little box. The Universe is a complex and beautiful place, but only if you allow yourself to see it for what it is and not just what you want to believe.

InsaneJediGirl
04-26-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Stillakid, I know that no one suggested the creation as a mistake or random happening. I was just simply stating that I believe God had the hand in it. He created the earth, the heavens, and all living beings. Science seems to conflict with that. My point is that I believe in the creation that is told of in Genesis.

If you believe in the creation,step by step,that is told in Genesis...then where did dinosaurs come into the equation.They
were here..fossils prove that.I've heard that "God planted those fossils there"...but,uh..why would he waste his time?

Just a thought here;)

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 11:30 AM
I have to disagree with you stillakid.There is no comfort zone to christianity.None at all.If you shared the perspective that we do then you'd understand.I really can't explain that to you.Science to me was not created by god and it's certainly is not god.Science is mans egotistical attempt to figure out god instead of taking his word for it.Science has turned into a venue that is out to discredit belief in God at every opportunity.When not discrediting the belief in god they are trying to make him conform to our ignorant understanding of him.I really do get what you're saying.But the fact of the matter is this.I DO know better.And that will never change.There are facts that we all learn in life that will never change.No matter what some wishy washy scientist comes up with from week to week to try and convince us other wise.
I really do grow tired of the whole Zealot fanatic rhetoric.It really is insulting.There are zealot fanatic scientists,enviromentalists,evolutionists,atheists and Religions of every shape and size.My response to that is if these people really had faith in the tenants these would not be issues.To blame Islam for the actions of Bi Laden and is ilk is ignorant in my opinion.True faith has nothing to do with that.Nor the Crusades or the spanish inqusition.
Atheism can wear some of the guilt of fanatizm as well(not that I'm saying your an atheist)Look at what happened to Soviet Jews and Christens in 70 years.Look at what is happening right now in China and north Korea.Shall we bring up Hitler?If you want to blame religion for any and all Ill of the world then Go ahead.You also need to thank it because it is the real reason we even have society or laws.If the Bible has no authority then what does?Mans law?Who says and why should I care?I say lying and stealing and killing is not wrong.Prove me wrong?Can't with out some authority That I respect and believe.And It doesn't come from man.Anyway.I really do disagrer that religion was made up by primitive people in an attempt to deal with their fears of death.If the bible was made up it would sound exactly like you own personal beliefs.No real demand or expectations on yourself or anyone else from amoral stand point.Why would people make up a set of rules that they Cannot obey.That idea is illogical to me.They wouldn't look at at how laws change here everyday.No consitancy what so ever.And we're more enlightened and modern.Teah right.Same old stories different era.Your Ideas are not new they have been around for a very long time.No insul;ts intened any where in this thread.I'm using the quik rsponse so I don't have emoticons

JetsAndHeels
04-26-2002, 11:41 AM
I have never heard that God planted those fossils IJG. Once again, my belief is that God created all living beings. Dinosaurs would be included in this.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 11:42 AM
Hey insane jedigirl.I probably should have just edited my response into my last post but that one is preaty long winded;)
Dinosuars fit into the equation the same place all other animals do.Made at the sametime.Two are described in the Bible after the flood so they were there too.Big Barada pointed out the scientific
"fact" that fossilization cannot occur unless the dead animal is completely submerged in water.It is my belief fossils are a result of the flood and they were also buried under all the silt that would occur in such an event.As a christian I belief dinosuars were real and lived(and maybe still do some where).There is no contradiction with my faith in that.I don't belief it was millions of years ago and on and on like paleantologists would like us to belief to support their evolutuionary theories is the difference.
Hope I was clear putting my beliefs across to you.I'm no where near as articulate as alot who have responded to this thread:) and I really don't understand the reply you got from someone about god putting them there.Was it their contention it was for test of faith or something?

Lobito
04-26-2002, 11:44 AM
Hi guys, here are my 2 cents...:D

First of all i believe in Jesus, but i dont go to church as often as a christian would. I only go to church when i have a wedding or stuff like that. Why?? Well, u see...everyone of us has his "own way" of believing. Some believe in Jesus, some in Buda, Some in Ala...etc...it has always been like this, the point is to "practice" the good things that u believe in. I chose to help people in the streets instead of going every sunday to church and pray...Just to put an example. Now the bible...i am sure that this book has a lot of fiction in it...of course there was no Adan or Eve...they are just symbols...as Noah...(Noe in Spanish), Moses...(Moisés)...they relate to history, but they are all part of a series of symbols to set an explanation of where do we come from. The truth will not be known to us ever. As stillakid said...dont take the bible literally. Get the good things of your religion (if u have one) and practice them. If u dont have religion thats also perfect, i have very good friends that are atheist...and they understand all this religion mess better than anyone...their philosophy..."dont try to convince ppl in joining something that even they (chritians, jews, muslims, etc.) dont believe...just be".:)

InsaneJediGirl
04-26-2002, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
I have never heard that God planted those fossils IJG. Once again, my belief is that God created all living beings. Dinosaurs would be included in this.

Thank you JF96 and Dryanta for your opinions on this.I personally believe in a God-planned evolution but I wont even
go into that right now.

JF96,One day I shadowed at a Baptist School,in Science class they claimed that dinosaur fossils were planted on Earth by God.So thats were I heard it:D

JetsAndHeels
04-26-2002, 11:52 AM
Thats very interesting, IJG. But we will never know, because we were not there. Thats why faith is what it is, you know. We choose what we believe in.
Thanks for your insight.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 12:04 PM
yes thanks for both of your insites.I don't agree but thanks lol;)

SithDroid
04-26-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Science to me was not created by god and it's certainly is not god.Science is mans egotistical attempt to figure out god instead of taking his word for it.Science has turned into a venue that is out to discredit belief in God at every opportunity.When not discrediting the belief in god they are trying to make him conform to our ignorant understanding of him.I really do get what you're saying.But the fact of the matter is this.I DO know better.And that will never change.There are facts that we all learn in life that will never change.No matter what some wishy washy scientist comes up with from week to week to try and convince us other wise.
I really do grow tired of the whole Zealot fanatic rhetoric.It really is insulting.There are zealot fanatic scientists,enviromentalists,evolutionists,atheists and Religions of every shape and size.My response to that is if these people really had faith in the tenants these would not be issues.To blame Islam for the actions of Bi Laden and is ilk is ignorant in my opinion.True faith has nothing to do with that.Nor the Crusades or the spanish inqusition.
Atheism can wear some of the guilt of fanatizm as well(not that I'm saying your an atheist)Look at what happened to Soviet Jews and Christens in 70 years.Look at what is happening right now in China and north Korea.Shall we bring up Hitler?If you want to blame religion for any and all Ill of the world then Go ahead.You also need to thank it because it is the real reason we even have society or laws.If the Bible has no authority then what does?Mans law?Who says and why should I care?I say lying and stealing and killing is not wrong.Prove me wrong?Can't with out some authority That I respect and believe.And It doesn't come from man.Anyway.I really do disagrer that religion was made up by primitive people in an attempt to deal with their fears of death.If the bible was made up it would sound exactly like you own personal beliefs.No real demand or expectations on yourself or anyone else from amoral stand point.Why would people make up a set of rules that they Cannot obey.That idea is illogical to me.They wouldn't look at at how laws change here everyday.No consitancy what so ever.And we're more enlightened and modern.Teah right.Same old stories different era.Your Ideas are not new they have been around for a very long time.No insul;ts intened any where in this thread.I'm using the quik rsponse so I don't have emoticons

I guess I just don't understand how religious peole can discredit science. I mean medical science has been proven to help cure people of certain ailments, yet when it comes to evolution or other topics religious people tend to blow the whole thing off. You have to take the whle thing in if you are to believe in it. So then I guess religious people have no need for medicine. The same thing goes with cloning, or test tube babies or the such. Do these entities indeed have a soul since they are not created through natural birth? I have to agree with stillakid in his stance. God IS science. He made up all the rules that govern the universe. He also gave man the ability to think and learn. If he wanted everyone to believe that there is an afterlife and to follow his rules, then he could have made EVERYONE aware of it so that everyone WOULD follow him and there would be a utopian society. Unfortunately this is not the case. Why do we have extremely rich people who are greedy and don't share their wealth for the betterment of society. Who knows? But then aren't all rich religious people committing one of the 7 deadly sins: avarice. So why not use there money for good? However they don't seem to see this as a problem.

These are just things I have noticed. Do not take offense to them.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 01:32 PM
Hey sith droid.No offense taken at all.
I understand your and stillakids viewpoint of "god creating and using science"(not an exact quote).The problem I have with it is I don't belief for one second that he is bound by the same scientific rules that we are.We live in a physical world with all of it's limitations .He doesn't.That's what I was tring to get at by my putting God in a box comment.Sorry for any confussion.
As far as Medical science vs. other forms of science,Medical science does benifit people for the most part.I personally can't say the same for some other areas of study.Way to much supposition and guessing to fit their own personal thoughts and beliefs.The exact same thing can be said of me and my beliefs.It does put a bias on everything for me.I have no problem with that fact.Alot of scientists claim to be neutral and they are most certainly not.
As far as the rich question.I belief that God chooses who He gives what.Do I like it?Not one bit!!He also says To who much is given much is required.In other words if someone squanders whats been given to them then they will personally answer for it.
I find the same principle at work with Tax money and science.With all of the social,health,and money crisis' we have just in this country I find it absolutely ridiculous that they spend Billions on tring to prove or change theories.SO IMHO it's not just rich religious people who play a money game it's all of us through or tax money.See what I mean?Some exploration has been very benificial to our well being,alot more has been pure folley to provide evidence of some peoples beliefs.Would you be willing to give a group of theologians billions of dollars to prove the Biblical account of creation?I doubt it and neither would I.So why do we all do it with people who seem I repeat seem to be out to disprove it?Please don't try and say they might be doing just that.Because they are not.IMO because of the bias that they have.
There is bias and a belief system at work in science.I don't think any reasonable person could argue with that.And there is also in religion.If people of biblical faith have tunnel vision than the same must be said of science.They are both loaded with bias.
Sorry sith droid if you started to read my post before Edited it.I wanted to address your questions but I missed a couple:)
As far as do babies greated by artificial insemination have a soul?Yes because it's not like Man made the child.They use the sperma nd egg cells provided by god though the parent bodies to make the child.Man will never be able to biuld anything out of anything thats provided by god.IMO
As far as clones,to me it's a mute point.I do not believe cloning humans is possible.They could clone a functioning body no doubt but not a person.I personally believe we all have a soul and man cannot replicate that.It all stems from my belief that we are not animals.Clone an animal,the proof exists.Humans,I don't belief it can be done.God said he did give us the knowledge of his will.But If you don't belief the Bible there is no way to back that up in a physical way.I do belief we have an inherent knowledge of his expectations.I think looking at the news at any time should show enough that we would not follow them because we haven't.
He gave us free will,he had no interest in creating little automatons because any and all love shown by such a thing would be completely empty.Another long winded post under my belt.If I missed something let me know and I'll try and give you my perspective of it.:)

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by InsaneJediGirl


Thank you JF96 and Dryanta for your opinions on this.I personally believe in a God-planned evolution but I wont even
go into that right now.


Actually there is a new realm of scientific thought, based on the bible that is starting to pop up in many Christian circles. The basic idea of a God-planned evolution is the center of all this. It's sort of a mix of Creationism and Evolutionism. Basically it states that God didn't create Beagles, Dobermans, German Shepards, Chihuahuas, and Great Danes; He creates TWO DOGs, and their progeny adapted into the many breeds of dogs we have today. (Actually dogs aren't a really good example since their breeding has been manipulated by man for the last few thousand years; but the general idea is there.) God created two cats and those cats' descendants became the lions, tigers, cheetahs, housecats, etc. that we know today. Two bears became grizzlys, polar bears, black bears, sunbears, etc. Two humans became blacks, whites, orientals, indians, polynesians, eskimos, etc. And the list goes on and on.

I wholeheartedly agree with Dryanta on not classifying all religious people as possible terrorists. To say that religion is the sole cause of the problems we have in the world today is simply ignorant. The US still has a large percentage of it's population claiming to be Christian (the Bible Belt). I don't believe we have ever had a problem with suicide bombers and terrorism from that segment of the population. In fact, I seem to recall some of the most notorious criminals of our recent past being very anti-Christian (the two Columbine shooters, Charles Manson).

Stating that "God is science" is implying that God is constrained by the rules of science. I simply believe that God created the principles and laws of the universe (laws referring to physical and natural laws, morality laws weren't necessary until humans screwed everything up). Science is the name man gives to the study of those principles. However, we are incapable of discovering all the answers since we were only given 5 senses and can only percieve in 3 dimensions. Like that only analogy of sitting in the living room watching the evening news, with your pet dog in the room. The dog is hearing the exact same broadcast you are, but the dog isn't capable of understanding it on the same level as you. We see the universe and try to come up with these vague scientific principles to understand them; but our capability for understanding is severly limited.

If anyone here listens to Paul Harvey maybe you remember this? A few weeks ago he reported about a mathemetican who stated that the universe as we understand it and the elements that we have identified are only an estimated 5% of what is really out there in the universe. The other 95% is stuff we cannot perceive with our senses or limited brains, so there are entire worlds living and dying all around us and we are completely oblivious to them.

Jason B
04-26-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Actually there is a new realm of scientific thought, based on the bible that is starting to pop up in many Christian circles. The basic idea of a God-planned evolution is the center of all this. It's sort of a mix of Creationism and Evolutionism. Basically it states that God didn't create Beagles, Dobermans, German Shepards, Chihuahuas, and Great Danes; He creates TWO DOGs, and their progeny adapted into the many breeds of dogs we have today. (Actually dogs aren't a really good example since their breeding has been manipulated by man for the last few thousand years; but the general idea is there.) God created two cats and those cats' descendants became the lions, tigers, cheetahs, housecats, etc. that we know today. Two bears became grizzlys, polar bears, black bears, sunbears, etc. Two humans became blacks, whites, orientals, indians, polynesians, eskimos, etc. And the list goes on and on.

i believe this theory. i just can not believe that with some lightning and water, and a few thousand years, you get life. it just doesn't make any sense to me at all. i also believe that the flood happened. in my Biology class last year, i got into a *small* arguement with my teacher that the flood actually happened. all you ever hear about fossils, is that they landed in a dry creek bed, of a lake, or whatever. Fossils have to be submereged in water to be fossilized. pure and simple. he just woudlnt accept that though. he tried saying that the others landed in swamps, or into tar pits, but it simply isnt true.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 03:40 PM
Thanks BigB.That's the "Macro-evolution" I spoke to earlier and I belief it results the earth after the flood.Maybe that isn't the corect name of the theory but I think it is

Bosskman
04-26-2002, 04:20 PM
Dryanta, I'm sorry to dissapoint you but human cloning is possible and it coming. Even if there is legislation against it, it will happen illegally, or somewhere else. Cloned animals are no different then regual animals, they're living, breathing, creatures who are spiritually no different than other animals. While man's spiritual nature is far superior to that of a beast or bird or other creature (free will, etc.) his body is no less physical. Clone humans would be no less human than anyone else. God's creation is not Him saying "Let's see, I think I'll create Bosskman today." His creation is formulaic and humans are the ones who carry it out. Wherever the physical conditions arise, a soul is created according to this divine decree, if you will. Humans have been creating other humans for as long as we have been here. Human cloning is wrong , not because God doesn't want us to make more humans (he actually DOES want us to do that I'm sure) but rather because the experimentation, trial and error processes, done on living human embyos would result in those people being subjected to all sorts of unforseen problems. For example, the first try might yield some horribly deformed person. Are physically or mentally handicapped people not human? Do they not have souls either? What would be the difference? God is the one who should decide who among us is to suufer, and when and how we're going to die. I believe that animal cloning is also wrong because no animal should have to go through such experimentation. When the clones attack, they will be human and they will have souls. It will not be their fault, they themselves will have had no control over the process that brought them into existence any more than you or I did.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 04:41 PM
Thanks bosskman for you input.Did you get a Private message BTW?
Anyway,I still don't think it can be done.Procreation is no where near the same IMHO.And I really don't see animals as spiritual at all.The physical point is really the same as mine I think.The biology of the thing is possible no doubt The creation of a soul,what I belief makes us what we are,is up to God alone.Just because some biologist somewhere makes a cloned human body doesn't mean it would be a person.I guess what I mean to say is this.I think it would be even less that an animal because it wouldn't function at all.It would simply be a body with certain bodily functions but thats it.But that's me.And I personally belief God doesn't say I'll make so and so today and then so and so tomorrow.He did all that before anything was made at all.He did say"I knew you from before the foundations of the Earth"And no I Certainly never considered any person any less than any other.Not even before I came to faith in Christ.Some of the best,brightest,and most blessed people in the world are challanged in some way or another,and few of those people see themselves as suffering.Just my opinions anyway.It's a good topic offshoot though?Anybody else?

stillakid
04-26-2002, 04:51 PM
Oh, boy. You want to talk about specifics then? Crack open your Bible, do the math that is clearly printed inside regarding the dimensions of Noah's Ark, then find a way to convince me that anybody could have possibly shoved all those species inside plus all the food and water necessary to survive for that amount of time. Not to mention all of the fresh water fish tanks that he would have had to build inside the thing.

(stillakid turns and saunters off, shaking his head in disbelief)


Oh, and, as I mentioned, I did do a TON of research on this particular question, posed it to a literalist, and the only response she could offer back was, "With God, all things are possible." Oh brother.:rolleyes:

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 05:22 PM
I posted my opinion on this before.It does not say anywhere they were adult animals.The above mentioned Macro evolutuion is also a good explaination. There were not as many different species as now because the climate was uniform on the entire planet,That is the biggest reason for The differeces in species.They needed to change and adapt to the region and climate they lived in after they spread out from the ark.Humans as Big B pointed out also went through these exact same changes.
(dryanta turns and suanters shaking his head in disbelief)

DeadEye
04-26-2002, 06:00 PM
None of it's real. Plain and simple.

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
None of it's real. Plain and simple.

None of what is real? Cloning? DNA? God? Be a little more specific. In any case, that is just your opinion, not a fact. If you want to dismiss everyone's beliefs then 1.) specify exactly which part you disagree with and 2.)give a reason for your opinion. If you just come to this thread with a vague blanket statement like that, then it shows that you really haven't given this issue much thought and it also implies that you haven't read anything posted above. So, tell me, if you callously disregard everyone's opinions on this thread then how do you expect us to respect yours?

Not dismissing your viewpoint; but I would like to read specifics on exactly what you believe is not real and why you believe that way.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 06:13 PM
I agree Dead eye.Everyone here has been able to give some insight into the way and what they belief or don't belief.I know you can do the same.It really could easily be taken as a 'dis by you.I don't think you meant it that way,but it could easily be taken that way

DeadEye
04-26-2002, 06:35 PM
I've actually read all these posts. I'm sorry...I was just too lazy to be be specific. :p

I truly find all religious ideals, frankly, to be pants.
There are far too many inconsistencies...in my opinion, religion was just something come up by a drunk guy or something, and it was widespread as something people could look up to. It kept society in order, to a degree, and in the Middle Ages the corrupt churches controlled everything.

And of course, when you ask a hardcore religious guy a question that really puts him in his place, he'll just say some BS like, "Oh, it's not our place to question God."

SithDroid
04-26-2002, 06:36 PM
More on the Noah's Ark comment.

If Noah somehow managed to get every single animal etc... on the ark then does that include the Dinosaurs? Someone posted that the reason we have Dinosaur fossils is because they became fossilized due to the great flood. Well if this is true, then I have a few questions about this.

1) How many Dinosaurs did Noah get on the ark? Surely he couldn't have gotten them all on.

2) If they did indeed get put on the ark, then shouldn't they have survived instead of having died off?

3) Due to dating these fossils are we to assume that Noah lived millions of years ago even before man was created? And if so, shouldn't we have fossils of the peole that died in the flood?

4) Are we all decended from Noah since he and his wife were the only humans to survive?

5) Would the ark have been structurely fit to hold that many animals?

6) If Noah did indeed live before the time of Christ, then how come Christianity did not appear until the time of Christ if God did indeed talk to him? Wouldn't Noah have been able to regulate religion seeing as he and his wife were the only ones to survive? Hence everyone should believe in the same thing.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 06:58 PM
There you go Deadeye.I knew you had alot more on the ball then that post!!
Sith droid,I'll give it a whirl1.Yes it includes the surviving dinosuars at the time.They was a long period of time between the Garden and the flood.What ever dinosuars there were two of them were put on the ark.AND AGAIN no one ever said they were adults.Again two are described after the flood.in the bible.
2.Who said all of them did die off.I can't asy they are all gone can you?I don't know where most or all of them went after they left the ark.But I do belief they left the ark.Alot of other animals have gone extinct for a miriad of reasons.3 I personally don't buyt into carbon 14 dating.Bigb's earlier post says it much better than I could.So no I don't even make the assumption that noah lived Millions of years ago.merely thousands.I know that's not what you're probably looking for but that 's the answer from my perspective.As for the second part I really can't say if there have been human fossils,but yes I think they are there.
4.Noah and his wife were not he only survivers.They had three sons and they each had wives that survived.But to answer your question,yes through their sons and daughter in laws
5 why wouldn't it.I believe the plan came from God so it'd be more than able to do what it was meant to.It took a long time to build the ark."gopher wood" doesn't even exist anymore so it never really had the benifit of modern stress testing to prove it either way.And again if the animals were all young or even infant(toddler?) the stress on the ship would not be as great if even a few adult animals were crammed into it for almost a year.Most animals that we have today don't reach adult size in a years time.And again the diversity in species did not exist yet because of the uniform climate that covered the entire earth.As far a stillakids comment anout fresh water tanks.I posted eirlier that pangea broke up while underwater.that is what formed fresh water lakes.I have no problem with the idea freah water fish didn't exist bfore the flood either.Or the other way around for that matter
6 I'm not sure of the question.I'll do what I can.Noah would not have been able to regulate anything they were told to spread out.He would also afford his offspring the same thing God himself does,free will and the choice to make for yourself.Those are my beliefs anyway.Hope I was clear.I don't tranlate well between my brain and you all's monitors very well sometimes

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 06:58 PM
1. I'm sure in the case of large animals like dinosaurs, Noah took on board babies or young specimens.

2. The climate of the Earth changed so much after the flood that the dinosaurs that would have survived probably died off from hunting or starvation.

3. Read my post in one of the first parts of this thread, it outlines exactly how inaccurate Carbon dating is (only 1000 years back).

4. Yes

5. God wouldn't go through all the trouble of warning Noah and telling him how to build the ark if He planned on letting it get crushed by the tons of water that came pouring down onto it.

6. As I explained before, God was laying out the seeds necessary for Jesus' birth in the Old Testament. And Noah had about as much control over his full grown sons as any elderly man (who had a tendency towards drunkeness). The total number of people on the ark were 8: Noah and his wife; Noah's sons Shem, Ham and Japeth and their wives.

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 07:04 PM
OOps I posted right on top of you, Dryanta. :o

Starfig873
04-26-2002, 07:12 PM
Well I'm a little late for the party, I know. Might as well throw my pennies into the well (and if I reiterate anything that's already been said by someone else, my apologies. :)). So here I go:

First things first: I know that God exhists. I don't believe he actually made us in his image. I think that is just an arrogance on the human race's part.
Secondly: I don't trust the Bible. If it indeed started as true, then no doubt humans tainted it with all their might. Change something here and there to better suit what's going on...
I was baptized Catholic, went to a Catholic private school and I just grew tired of it. I felt deep down inside of me that the religion was wrong. I don't know how, or why, but I did.
I just know God is there and I live my life. The main thing I crave in life are the answers that apparantly only he/she/it can give not another human being. So...that's me :)
It's probably not worth a hill of beans to anyone, but those are my choices and beliefs. I don't expect anyone to listen to me either, ah well. Was fun nonetheless. :)

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 07:12 PM
no problem glad you did.Does that help you understand my view point any better Sith droid?BigB is much more articulate then I am.
Thanks for posting starfig873.I know we're all listening.I really do belief that the bible is the word of God.And because of that I don't believe he ever allowed it to be tainted in anyway in it's writing and copying since the begining.The dead sea sea scolls,babalonian stone tablets, Assyrian ,and egyption writtings that have been found pretty well attest to that. Way to important to let the message to man be messed with by man.Don't get me wrong.There are alot of people who have misinterpeted it and taken things out of context to fit their means.But it was meant to be commonly availible to all.So we all could check and mnake sure we were not being led astray so to apeak.If you have access to a bible and are led astray you have to bare some of the responsibility.MAke any sense to you?I mean my explaination of my belief?I can't really address the catholic church.I know bosskman or perhaps BigB are better suited for that.I agree with you 100% with your beliefs about God himself.And it does mean more to us than a hill of beans.I'm sure any of us would talk to you about such things anytime.

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 07:28 PM
Starfig, thanks for sharing your views! Everyone's opinions are welcome here.

To address your disbelief of the statement, "Let Us make man in Our image." I do believe that this is true, just not necessarily on a physical level. All living things have a Body and a Soul, what separates us from the animals is that we are infused with a Spirit as well. This means that we are a trinity just like God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit- why God refers to himself in Genesis as "Us"). This is the meaning of 'His own image' and it simply means that we, above all creation, are the only ones capable of having a personal relationship with God. This also means that we are the only living things on earth that are accountable for everything we do in this life.

Although, I agree with you on a certain level, we have done little to deserve the esteem God has put upon us. He regards us even higher than the angels themselves! We were instructed by God to be the caretakers of this planet and look what we have done to it. Ripping down forests for the sake of greed, torturing animals for the sake of science, murdering each other in His name. Shameful if you ask me.

Starfig873
04-26-2002, 07:36 PM
Wow, did I sound bitter? I hope not...heh heh. I Just re-read my post. :p
Thanks for postin' back BB and Dryanta

I just, y'know, am a happier person since I came to my level of thoughts. That's all. :) I just think God wants us to live our lives (of course there is interferance of that all the time in everyone's life :p)
I didn't mention that earlier, though now I sound cocky I think. Heh heh.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 07:40 PM
you're welcome starfig. anytime anywhere.And I don't think you sounded bitter or cocky.Curious maybe...

SithDroid
04-26-2002, 07:42 PM
I get where you guys are coming from, yet I still don't buy into it.

Also if Dinosaurs DID survive during the flood, isn't it highly likely that man would have become extinct due to the large Dinosaur predators such T-Rex's etc...

Dryanta, also if you believe in the whole MACRO-Evolution theory about the animals on the ark, couldn't the same thing be applied to humans. Science has proven that at one time there were 3 different species of humans inhabiting the earth. Couldn't it be highly likely that one or two of these if not all species evolved from a different species, such as the apes. We don't know for sure although it is highly likely since we share so much genetic make-up with them.

I can understand that carbon dating is not 100% accurate, but then again how are we to disprove science when people who are religious really have no proof other than the Bible, which is skeptical in the first place. It contradicts itself, so the same argument can be applied to it. Also the Bible was written by man. It wasn't written by God. No mystical book floated down from "heaven" with all of the teachings inside of it. If it was indeed Gods word, then why have two versions (Old and New).

I guess the whole thing comes down to, We Just Don't Know.

That is what religion is, based on faith. Most people need facts, which I can understand, but some people do not and go by faith. It is all relative to the person.

DeadEye
04-26-2002, 07:48 PM
Besides, no one can offer proof that God exists.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 08:01 PM
hey sith droid,thanks for your input. as far as T rex or other similar animals.The way I see it is this.All animals created by God were originally Herbivore.There was NO death before the fall of man.So I belief it makes sense that the animals on the ark reverted,not physcallly,but in terms of habits back to that state.Think about it.The predatory animals could not have killed the first animals of the ark for food because there would be no animals today.If God hand picked and sent the specific two animals to go on the ark then he was certainly able to temporaily change their eating habits.
as far as the Human question."science" has proven that all humans came from one single woman.Not ape,woman.And no big surprise here,she didn't come from an ape eitherIMHO
I do very much belive that macro eveolution does apply to humans as well as animals.When the languages were scrambled at the tower of Babble and humans finally spread out as they were originally told too.The different climates made adaptations to us as well.I read a really interesting book once about this explaining the human adaptations.It was written from a completely atheistic point of view.It also pointed out that all of the races could be tracked back to specific area.Right where Babble once stood.
You are right.No mystical book floated down from heaven.God gave the words to man to write down.Other than the second tablets of the ten command ments God did not physically write any of it.Used a large number of people to do it.over time and across three continents.Why?Cause we were not ready for the whole thing at once.And the Old and New testiments are not to versions.The old testiment focuses on the Jews before The Time of Christ and the new is focuses to the gentile.Testament means contract.Man was under a somewhat different grace contract with god before the Arrival of Christ.The new is the new contract with God after the sacrifice and resurection of Christ.But some do know.If you really want facts I'll give them to you with out any thing from the bible.LMK if you would like me to do that.

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 08:26 PM
There was at least two other species of human at the time of the flood, the Neanderthals and Homo Erectus, who were killed off by the flood. Where they came from depends on your point of view. There was roughly a 1600 year gap between the creation and the flood. Maybe a small sect of humanity was isolated long enough to split off into a separate species. Maybe they were descendents of Cain. I don't have all the answers.

The other species of man that we have found "evidence" of can actually be questioned as to how accurate they are.
Australopithecines which presumably are the next step up from apes can also be reasonably classified as purely ape and not at all human.
Homo Habilis the amount of inconsistency of fossil remains of this species can be used to say that this is not a valid species. Instead it could be simply a mish-mash of human and ape fossils. If many scientists weren't so bent on finding the "missing link" I think any notions of this species would have been dismissed long ago.

So the fossil records that are said to link apes to man can also be seen as two different and unconnected fossil records. One being completely ape and the other being completely human. There is no proof, only data that can be read in different ways.

T-Rex and all predators were created to be simply scavengers before the flood, animals still died and meat eaters were needed to clean up the landscape of dead flesh to help recycle it into fodder for new life. The T-Rex "scanvenger vs. predator" debate has been going on for years with the predator stand point winning out based solely on it making for a more spectacular movie monster. Nobody really knows what the T-Rex eating habits were, other than the fact that it did eat meat. It's all educated guessing not fact.

In fact, the more I have studied into Evolution the more I realize that it takes just as much faith to believe in this theory than it does to believe in God. Either way you are putting your faith in men. On one hand you can follow the men who wrote the Bible under divine-inspiration. On the other hand you can follow the theories posed by men with college degrees. Either way you are simply following someone else's writings. The difference is that the Bible offers hope for the afterlife while science only offers blinking out into nothingness.

2-1B
04-26-2002, 08:33 PM
bigb, do you know for a fact that the bible was written under divine inspiration or do you simply have faith that it was? I raised the issue a few pages back and was hoping for a response . . . :)

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 08:46 PM
I simply have faith that it was written under divine ispiration. There is of course no way to prove that; but it is what I believe. In the Bible, God states that the proof of his existence is all around us, thus no one can claim that they didn't know; but that is obviously not enough for some people.

One word on faith, we all use faith every day of our lives without even knowing it. If you have never been to Antarctica how can you be sure it exists? Sure it is mentioned in books and maps; but if those are disregarded in the matters of God, then they must be disregarded in the matter of Antarctica also. So, my question is, if you have never actually set foot on Antarctica how do you know it exists? Simple, faith.

Since the Vikings only existed in the accounts of the people they raided, how can we be sure they weren't just some ghost story told to scare children? The same could be said of Socrates, nothing that man ever wrote has survived to this day, the only way we are even aware of his existence is in the notes taken by his students. Thus it can be said that Socrates didn't exist and he is just a myth, since there is no physical evidence of him or his work. How does the Evolutionist accept the "fact" that a new fossil has been found to prove Evolution, when he/she hasn't actually seen or touched the fossil? Faith.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 08:53 PM
No one can offer proof that God exists?
Don't get nervous Dar.It's not as bad as it sounds.To hell with the Kit gloves.I really don't like haveing to do this but here goes.You want proof?
I was born the last of 7 kids in 1969.My father was a womanising truck driver who was never home.My mother was surgical nurse and she worked all the time as well.I had a alcholic grandfather in his 70s that took care of me and my next brother up.When I was only three monthes old my father cheated on my mother with the Pastors wife from the church they were going to.My three then teenage brothers went off the deep end over it and so did the rest of the family.I grew up being filled with an intense hatred of all things God not just Christianity.They used to put me in the back of the pick up and throw lite cigs. at me to toughen me up,because I was going to be alone in this world.Walk into the room and they'd pick me up and bash my head into the ceiling same idea.

So guess what,I grew up a hateful violent person.Dropped out of school in the 9th grade cause there were Bikes to ride and women to chase.I'd kicked almost anybodies *** just for looking at me.I ended up in Florida at 16 alone except for my girlfriend and another friend.He bailed once he found out my girlfriend was pregnant.I damn near ended up killing her father with a piece of pipe when he found out.And left the state with her.

Well he talked her into coming home for a visit and proceeded to give her a coat hanger abortion.Nice huh?
Never saw her again.
So then I get hooked up with this other girl and we have a couple kids and get married.Well you know in along there I got just so sick of life I just didn't care anymore.I'd been drinking pretty heavy since the age of 11 and was just burnt.I had heard things positive belief it or not in my life about god and Jesus and what not but never ever wanted to hear it.Preach to me you were taking your life into your own hands.I hit my knees at 21.Broken down angry father of two with the worst marridge on the planet.I said"IF it's real Help Me!!!"
He hit me like aton of bricks and I knew damnit I knew He was real and everything in that Book was real.I'd never picked one up in my life.I got up and on the phone to my mother and the closest brother I had.They didn't belief I thing I had to say.My mother was beyond skeptical and my brother just plain angry.


Now things didn't change much in my life for a few years.I was calmer and happier but then one day I found out my wife was cheating with someone from my church.Well guess what?About an hour and four cops taking out of my own house put me almost back where I was.Almost.God very gently and patiently waited for me to calm down.The marridge was over and I had lost my home and kids and church and big chunk of my faith.Over the next year he got me back on my feet,Introduced me to a great woman who I never would have met if all that hadn't happened.In one year I got my Kids and house back and in 18 monthes I had a new wife to boot.It's been 7 years and two more daughters but He has brought me though.I sit here now having lost my business due to the fact I destroyed my spine over the years and was unable to to do the love of my life Drive truck.I have titanium rods in my spine holding my upper body from my lower.I am in constant agrivating pain and I haven't been able to work in almost 15 monthes.That's how I found my way here to these forum.He is still with me bringing me through.Inot not some stupid belief it's fact.Don't try and patronize me with "I'm glad you found what works for you"Hell I found what works for you too if you'd only drop the scales off your eyes and see it.Belief it or don't.I won't say I don't care because I do.I don't ever want to have to bring these things up again but I know I will.Because it's for others that I went though them.
Now you want to call it a mental breakdown.Bull ****.How about some kind of positive thinking, even more ********.How about this oldie but goodie"It sychosematic" Ultimate ********.
Don't ever try and tell me what I know and what I don't.I know He's real.I know his word is real and true.if you were looking for some sugar sweet Religious conversion story to bad.Take the facts of my life.Do I struggle with old habits you bet your *** I do.At least He's making progress with me.Comfort zone yeah right.I don't want to go the way wants most of the time.I'm going anyway.I'd just as soon not have to talk about what I just did.He has other plans. Don't feel bad for me one bit.I'm taken care of.He has me in these palces for you not me.I don't know if he has me here for anyone in particular.It wouldn't surprise me if he did.Well Where are you?Sorry deadeye,If that ain't proof enough for ya.Sorry sith droid if that is still to Bible based.Everyword of it is true and believe me I only hit the high lights.Any questions comments?Sorry if this sounds harsh,but you what here's another thing you can belief or not.I want each and everyone of you to KNOW what I KNOW.Not for me or Jesusfreak or BigB or JAngoFett96.For you!!Call me what you will but there you have it.Censor awy Dar.Please try and keep as much intact as possible














;) ;)

DeadEye
04-26-2002, 09:05 PM
You may yet be the one person who's lived a harder life than me. :( :cry:

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 09:18 PM
I'm glad to hear your story Dryanta and it parallels the stories of many lives brought to the brink of despair and then lifted up with God's grace. Including mine. I think many of the athiests or skeptics on these boards classify us Christians as sheltered simpletons. We haven't been exposed to the real world so we cling to our "comforting" beliefs.

I myself have also been there, I have been a perpetual drunk, experimented sexually (including prostitutes), tried out some drugs and studied everything I could that would give me answers other than God's Word. All that brought me was emptiness and despair. I spent so long trying to get away from God and His Teachings that I eventually brought myself down so low that Jesus' sacrifice was the only way for me to be redeemed. I can honestly say that for the first time in my life I am really happy, and I pray constantly that the skeptics posting in this thread will somehow be shown the way toward salvation. I am praying for you all. And I will leave it at that.

Dryanta
04-26-2002, 09:29 PM
well you know I told jango Fett96 today in a PM that I was afraid I'd do this.I low and behold I did.
I damn near died when I was in a motorcycle accident when I was 19.I was on my home for lunch to see my brand new three week old baby girl.I lived but scared the hell out of the left side of my face.I did know not Christ at the time and I was more full of rage at that moment than any other in my life.But not to the point of needed a belief system to deal with my own mortality.I am reminded of my mortality everytime I look in mirror.So what's the point?It's not made up.He his real his plan is real.
Now I'll get things really uncomfortable around here.If I did not love each of you I would have walked away from this thread a long time ago.Do you all understand that?That is the hardest thing in the world for me to say.I am called by my God to lay my life down for you.And I would and I am.What kind of idiot would make up a faith that has requirments like that?WHo would ever follow that if it were not real?If I were God I'd have made it so the tree was never in the Garden and none of this would have ever happened.I am not God,And I don't know the things he does.As much as it hurts me Imagine how He feels.I have been bothered by the thought my posts in this thread would alienate from you all.And right now you guys are my only friends outside of my God and my wife and my nephew.So I'll lay that down if I have to If it will Help Jesus Christ give just one of you what he has given to me.
We all can sit here all day and talk about Dinosuars and Noah's ark and just about anything else.But I for one cannot anymore.There is way to much at stake to spend precious time on really petty arguements that you all can't understand anyway.And that is not an insult!!
I need to step away for awhile.If any of you would like to KNOW Who and What I KNOW please P.M. me. WE'll go for walk and I'll introduce you to someone who has Died to meet you.

Bosskman
04-26-2002, 09:58 PM
Dryanta, your last two posts were very well said and I feel the same way about this thread. I've tried to step away but I can't. It gladdens me that you just said a lot of what I have been searching for to say over the last few days. And BB, what you said about the sheltered athiests, I couldn't agree more. Bitterness and dispair are consuming, it is a vicious cycle that only Christ can break. Here's an analogy that I know we'll all be familiar with: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi Wan's apprentice." We all know how Obi Wan's apprentice turned out in the end though, don't we? I'm sure this thread will be deleted soon, so I'm gonna end this with a quote from a nun I heard on TV once when she was getting berrated by skeptics: "If you believe it, good for you. If you don't, too bad, it's true."

bigbarada
04-26-2002, 10:23 PM
In our present society it is no longer politically correct for us to have convictions. Everybody has to be so blasted sensitive to other's feelings that we can't express how we truly feel.

My relationship with Jesus and belief in the Bible are the only truths in my life that I am fully confident in. No one can get me to say that God doesn't exist, I believe it so strongly that I won't even say it in jest. It is more of a fact to me than the computer sitting in front of my face right now. Actually this computer isn't real, it is just a collection of nerve impulses translated by my brain (sight, hearing, touch). God is the only reality we can be sure of, and I am sorry for the people out there grasping at the darkness who haven't accepted His existence and unwaivering love yet.

Thanks to Dryanta, Bosskman, JesusFreak and JangoFett96 for contributing so much wisdom and experience to this thread. If anyone has any other questions, then PM me and I will also be happy to help you. If you have any questions regarding evolution, dinosaurs, Noah's ark; then scan through this thread first because we may have already answered your question. If not, ask away.

JesusFreak
04-26-2002, 11:59 PM
Wow, great posts Dryanta. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this topic. I haven't been on the past couple days so I haven't been able to say anything, but you sure have gotten better answers than I could've given you. Feel free to ask any questions like Bigbarada said.

BTW stillakid please please don't call be a Bible scholar even if you were being sarcastic because I am certainly not one, though I wish I was.

Dar' Argol
04-27-2002, 12:10 AM
Wow Dryanta, you know I could actually hear you screaming in my head?? Freaky. Now I have to play Devils advocate.

#1. Can someone please point me to a chapter where is specifiaclly says someing about Dionsaurs!?!?!?!?!?! I must have missed that part. If I could have found that as a child, I may have been more interested. Wow, to have Dino's on the Ark, that's a new one for me. Even I couldn't have thought that one up.

#2. I really can't think of anything else b/4 Dryanta's post. I have a different side of the coin to present you though Dryanta. I realize you are most likely 10yrs my seinor or more and you have lived a hard life. And not trying to sound, I don't even know but I'm going to say it and I don't mean it the bad way ok. I'm glad you found something to pull you through, I really am. I know that nothing I live through could be as bad, but for me, this is the worst. Please bear with me and keep an open mind:).

I lived what most concidered a sheltered life. My familiy are from Baltimore, MD. I was raised there for 12 years of my life. My mother and Father worked hard to give my sister and I what they never had. That was problem #1, they showered us with materialistic things, and not much love(we, me anyway). I was 5 when my sister was born. The moment she came into the world, that was all that mattered to my mother. I was cast to the side. The only one who would pay any attention to my was my Aunt, who is 13yrs older then me. She was my best friend, my Goodin.

My sister could do no wrong. I however could never please. Oh, what the joy I felt when my sister failed 3rd grade, or as my mother put it, "held back". I had the brains in the familiy, but giving my looks(imagine the nerdiest kid in school, that was me) I downplayed my intellect a lot! I did poorly on purpose, as not to be beat up and ridiculled too much at school. Being the smallest kid in your class has a lot of disadvanages.

I spent 12yrs in Catholic school. I was an Alter Boy for 3 years between 5th and 8th grade. I even etertained the notion of entering the Priesthood when I was old enough. But enough background, lets get to the point.

I married a girl that I had dated in High School. We broke up then and remained the best of friend. After HS, we got back together and have not been seaperated since. That was, oh, 7 yrs ago. We were wed on Nov 22, 1997. It was a great day despite the problems. Its one of the fondest memories I have of my Dad. He was so proud of me. My mother seemed indifferant. It was the last time I saw him so happy!

Somewhere around Jan 11th, 2000 my wife and I went to see my parents to announce my wife was pregnent with our first child. I was estatic and could not wait to see my father. To tell my Dad that I was going to be a Dad!!! He seemed. . . . distant that day, not quite his self. I chaked it up to a bad day at work. No biggie.

On April 8, 2000 I was at home in our apt. My wife had gone to bed and I was up late watching TV. I forget what, but I feel asleep. At around 11:45pm, my wife was woken up by loud pounding on our back door. She went to see who it was and my Aunt comes bursting through the door screaming, "Where's Shawn!! Where's Shawn!!!" My wife honestly did not know i fell asleep on the couch. So they all rush to the living room and at about 11:50pm I was woken up to the pained face of my Aunt, my Goodin. She had been crying for a while. What she told me I will never be able to forget. She said,

"Shawn, wake up! There's been a terrible accident. Shawn, Pay attention. This morning, . . . . . after you mother went to work . . . . . . your father locked himself in his room and uh, . . . . . . turned up the TV and uh, . . . . . . . . . . shot himself in the head . . . . . . . ."

She completly broke down and sobbed in my lap. I was stunned. It felt like Mack truck had come through my living room and slamed be in the chest. I started to cry no, no, no, no because that was all I could get out. Even now my hands are shaking as I type this.

Why would he do this??? He had a grandchild on the way?? He had finnaly made up with his estranged familiy. He had so much to look forward too! Why, why, why???? Even to this day I sometimes ask that question, but I'll never had an answer.

In the days and months that followed, some things did surface. It was no secret to me or my sister that my parents were not far off from a divoirce. What kept them together?? Who knows. They slept in seperate rooms, ate at different times, worked different hours. And when they were together, all they did was fight. That is what I grew up to. I turns out that my father was a Bi-Polar Manicdepressent(sp) and so is my mother!!! I however do not have any signs whatsoever of any form of depression. It was also found out that my mother had an affair and we think so did my father. It was one of the darkest chapters in my life.

But I stayed strong, for my mother, for my sister, for my familiy. Never once during this whole ordeal did I shed a single tear infront of anyone. I needed to be strong for the familiy. While I was alone I wept like a baby. I asked several times, "Why God, Why???" and never expected an answer. I never got one. I was strong till the viewing.

Now you need to understand something. And this is difficult to talk about. But when My father shot himself, the bullet never left. It circled several times. And without going into too much detail, lets just say he did not look like my father anymore, or so I was told. But the guys at the funeral home worked for 48hrs on my father and got him looking like his old self again and I could not thatnk them more. Not for me, for my mother and sister. I was strong then too. Until my Aunt looked me dead in the eyes and told me I don't have to be strong anymore. I litterally swooned and nearly passed out.

But through this all, I never once felt God "near" me or anything. I relied on myself, me to get through this. I relied on my strength, my convictions, my beliefs. Many said, "he was suffering and now he is in a better place". That may be true, but where was God when he needed him?? Where was HE when I needed him?? I don't hate God for this, but its kinda hard to belief in the face of this. I do believe there is a higher power, but I do not believe he is as high on the pedistool as most ppl put him. I think he screws up just like the rest of us!



*note:I went out of a cigerette and when I came Back I re-read this post. I continued with it b/c I felt it had a message. I am sorry if this offends anyone, and if it is too offensive, I will delete it myself. Just let me know. Thanx for letting me rant:D.

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 01:05 AM
I'm sorry for your loss Dar' Argol; but I do have a question to ask. During any of this crisis with your father, at any time did you actually pray to God and ask for his help? You never mentioned it in your story, so I wasn't sure.

Dar' Argol
04-27-2002, 01:21 AM
Big-B, yes I did. I found my father's rosery and for 3 angonizing nights b/4 the viewing I prayed for understanding, I prayed for comfort, I prayed for my mother and sister to have the strength that I did. But I never prayed for the strength for myself. I already knew I had that. After all the years of ridicule, teasing, fights, and mental punishment and both school and home, I knew I had the strength to look the grim reaper in his face and laugh! I even prayed that my unborn child might be a boy so he sould inherit my fathers name. I got a daughter, LOL. I held onto that rosery everynight for 3 days and carried it with me to the viewing, the funeral, and the wake afterwards. But that did not even offer me any comfort. I still have it, it is in my wardrobe with the rest of my father's things. And every once in a while I will pull it all out and hold everything. It makes me fell like my fathers right there beside me.

But Big-B, you might get a kick out of this. You know what offered me the most comfort? My father's Dog Tags! He was a Marine, and he hated it! But that was what gave me the most comfort. I have a pair myself, though not real. My high school did a production of M*A*S*H and we all had dog tags made up with the year, the show name, our name, and our character name. I have my tags and my father's, hanging together in my car. Makes me fell safe.

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 01:33 AM
Well, the Rosary is a symbol that I don't believe in and there is nothing in the Bible that even mentions it. If you want to be able to feel God's presence then read the Bible and pray for understanding. Catholicism is actually a form of Christianity that I have a lot of problems with. Especially since many of it's symbols and traditions aren't even mentioned in the Bible and many of them can be traced back to pagan religions. If I am not mistaken doesn't the Catholic Bible even have extra books compared to the King James version?

The hierarchy system of nuns and priests and saints and the Virgin Mary really bothers me. There is nothing in the Bible to support all of that. My relationship with God is between me and Him and it's a personal relationship that doesn't need any middle men/women to be fulfilling.

2-1B
04-27-2002, 01:55 AM
bigb, that's exactly what I was getting at yesterday, and if you don't want to address it, I respect that. But many Catholics believe those traditions are divinely inspired, just as you believe the bible was divinely inspired. Others might say that the bible was written by middlemen. Either way, people have to take alot of this on faith - what I never understood is squabbling between different factions of Christianity. For example, Christians who set out to label Catholicism as pagan and such while ignoring the fact that even with all of the traditions, they are still focusing on Jesus. People have different perceptions of him, that's fine. It's way too harsh and innacurate to speculate that Catholics may be "worshipping the wrong god."

As a christian, I've never been bothered by discussions and debates between Christians and nonChristians, I just tire of the criticisms and arguments WITHIN various forms of Christianity when they are all worshipping the same Christ.

:)

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 02:15 AM
There is only one path to redemption and that is through Jesus Christ. Catholicism seems to like to believe that people can stand in for God during confessions and that the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah is not a permanent, total change. Basically you only need to confess your sins and accept Jesus once, and that only needs to take place between Jesus and yourself. You don't need a priest to somehow translate what you say to God. He is perfectly capable of understanding you, in fact He understands you better than you ever could. So what's the point of confessng to a priest every few days or weeks? I am not talking about buying into a religion when I refer to a relationship with God. It's something personal. The Church was never intended to be the all-powerful entity that rules with an iron fist and determines who goes to heaven or hell. The Church was intended to be a place where fellow Christians could get together and fellowship, thereby strengthening their faith and helping each other when it is needed.

I can point out many Catholic traditions that have links to pagan worship, if you want to hear them let me know. They weren't instituted under any kind of divine intervention; just a compromise of Jesus' teachings in order to accomodate the pagan Roman beliefs at the time. Hence the name Roman Catholic. It was a political decision made two thousand years ago and it perverted Jesus' intent on this earth. He came here to relieve humankind of the burden of religion, instead His Word was twisted to strengthen it. Of course, Jesus knew this would happen and He knew that only a few would find the true path. I'm sure it pains Him even now.

Thus I have a hard time considering the Catholics a Christian religion. In fact I disregard all religions as worthless crap. It's the teachings of Jesus and the Word of God that are important and They outline the only true path to salvation. Don't like it? I'm sorry, it might not be considered PC or considerate of others' feelings; but it is the truth.

dr_evazan22
04-27-2002, 02:18 AM
Hi everyone. I've been prety busy the last week or so and haven't hung around too much. A few days a go I read up to page 7, then today skipped to page 11, so there's a little, well, quite a bit, that I missed.

I've just read Dryanta's and Dar' Agol's posts and they are very touching. We use "LOL" for "laugh out loud", but this is AMMC, for "almost made me cry". If I could take even a little bit of the pain, physical or emotional, that you've felt, I would.

I myself am not a religious person, but I would say that I'm spiritual. I have zero understanding for a persons complete faith in God, and I wish I understood it even a little.

My "experience" is more like Dar' Agol's, where I have complete faith in myself. I also believe very strongly in the emotional healing powers of family and friends.

I had a difficult day on Fri 11/13/83 where most of my life was turned upside down. Without going into the details, I'll just say that a member of my family made the news and it was kept from me. I found out because a teacher told me at school. I don't know what I would have done if I didn't have the support of all my friends that day.

I went to a Friends (Quaker) school thru '84, and the thing that I liked most about it, from a spiritual sense, was Meeting for Worship. Now, I didn't do much worshipping, but it was a perfect time to stop and reflect on things. I would equate it to Yoda's Jedi instruction of Luke, that when you are calm and at peace you'll know the Force.


I find it difficult to align myself w/ a church, which is run by all too human people. A great example would be the Catholics and their failure to adopt a strict Zero Tolerance for child sexual assualt. The reason they don't is because it's all about money. How about, as a new religious icon, a crucifix w/ a body on it, but instead of Christ's face, we see George Washington's?


John Lennon wrote "God is a concept by which we measure our own pain". This was very evident in the wake of 9/11. Hearing someone say that it was all a part of God's plan, that it was God's will, so that we can find God again, it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. It brings to mind a selfish, vengeful and spiteful God.

I wanted to share some of this, and more, w/ you, but it's getting late.

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 02:50 AM
God did not cause 9/11; but we as a society have denied and mocked Him enough that he simply lifted his veil of protection, which left us open for that tragedy to occur. God is a loving God, but above all, He is a righteous God. If we have abandoned Him as a society then how can we expect Him to come rushing to our aid when we need Him? Basically, if we don't ask for Him and make a place for Him in our lives, then He won't interfere. This is good if you don't want God to be a part of your life; but bad if you expect Him to protect you from despair. I almost put "protect you from harm;" but that would be incorrect as even devout Christians have bad things happen to them. The difference is in your perspective. A Christian with strong faith will see a tragedy as a forced redirection by God and will not lose hope. To be a Christian is to ask for God's guidance in every aspect of your life, thus God will rebuke you if He feels that you are not listening to Him or are misrepresenting Him. However, He will always be there to pick you back up again and brush you off. It's not an easy life, nor a particularly prosperous or popular life; but it is a happy and fulfilling life.

Dryanta
04-27-2002, 08:02 AM
Morning Guys and Gals,
I need to clear up one thing before we go .In a post before,I said I never saw her again.Sorry I did.I forgot in the momentt sorry I just needed to clarify that.I didn't want to leave that unsaid.Also dar please don't feel I was screaming I wasn't,I was weeping.And before the meat and potatos of the post.Descritions of two seperate dinosuars can be found in JOB: 40 and 41.Leviathen and Behemoth.Check it out!
Thanks BigB for your postes.Dar Just let me say I'm not in any kind of "rotten life" copetition.I personally would have rather lived my life than yours.That said,I will try and address what i can without repeating what BIgB has already said.I can't address the catholic faith becuase i don't know much about it.What I do know is confusing to me from a Biblical standpoint so I'll leave that alone.More important thing for me to talk to you about.I don't know so I won't waste your time on guessing.
I would like to say I'm glad that you were strong enough to get through it all by yourself.But I can't.So was I until there was nothing left to give.That is the hardest way to come to Christ.
For another moment of me standing before you all completely emotionally naked.I cannot stand Gods Plan.NOT ONE BIT!!My pride tells me I should be able to do it all myself and He can pick up the slack."God helps those that help themselves?Wrong. In all truth I can't do anything.I don't like the whole sacrifice for sin.I don't like it one bit. God himself had to come down here,Show us a sinless life could be done and suffer and die at the hands of people JUST LIKE ME!!In my ego and finite knowledge I'm sure there had to be a better way.Dar,What was the answer you were expcting from your prayers?A thundering voice from above?Your father to be raised on that day?The fact of the matter is this,I agree with stillakid on his points about the Charleton Hestonesqe Old man on a throne Bellowing orders idea that most have about god.That is a perception that people have and it is wrong!You will hear a "still small voice" long before you hear him yelling and chucking lightning at you.Have you considered your Prayers were answered?You made it through in almost one piece.The missing pieces he will replace if you let him.Was that the answer you got because that is what you really needed at the time?Probably not what you asked for but thats's what you needed at the time.
The real deal with Jesus Christ is this,A life for a life.He gave his for you and he askes the same in return.If you live your life for him you will find true life.Sound like slavery? it is.You're a slave to sin or a slave to rightousness(Christ).Pick your master.There is one that want's you to suffer and die not once but forever.One wants you to live and again forever.Choose.
It is my firm unshaking belief your prayer was answered just not the way you expected.Consider yourself blessed.Until you or anyone else approach God on His terms(Through Christ) not yours he is under no obligation to hear you.
He sent the call out to before you even born,answer it first and then expect His undivided attention.I hope I've been clear enough.If you would rather not continue this in an open thread feel free to PM me.

Bosskman
04-27-2002, 09:14 AM
BigB, I'm sorry but those statements you made about Catholicism are completely ignorant. The King James version of the Bible? When do you think that was written? And by whom? Did Jesus Christ Himself write it five hundred years ago? It was translated from the CATHOLIC Bible in England during the reformation and the people who translated it just simply took out all those Catholic things in the Bible that you say are not there, including several books. You're absolutely right about one thing: YOUR Bible may not have those things in it but YOUR Bible was made by people who took all the things out of the ORIGINAL Bible that they didn't like. Everybody was Catholic before the reformation. The reformation aroase out of human greed and money. Many catholic bishops and even popes at the time may have been corrupt bt that does not mean their Faith was wrong. How do you explain the fact that the first people to adopt reformation ideals were the emerging merchants? So they could keep as much money for themselves without giving it to others. Hence the whole "faith alone" thing. It's really about "scrounge your money". Don't even get me started on Henry VIII. Evengellical protestant religions like Baptists and the like, emerged centuries later in Britain and the US, as a result of the absense of the CATHOLIC Sacraments, all seven of them. Many people still knew that "faith alone" was empty if one's actions were not reflective of that faith (A CATHOLIC CONCEPT), however, since anti-Catholic rhetoric, such as the stuff you were just spouting, impeded them to return to the Sacraments that sustained their great grandparents, they were forced, by their own blindness, to substitue them with their OWN rules. The "Catholic" Bible, as you call it, is THE Bible, try reading it and see if all that stuff is there. Of course the rosary isn't, it's only about a thousand years old, but do you know what the rosary actually is? Probably not, so why are you tearing it up? "Roman" because of Roman pagan beliefs? NO, "Roman" because the pope is the bishop of Rome, the city where the first bishop of Rome, a certain man who most certainly is to be found in the Bible, called Peter, was martyred along with another guy named Paul, remember those guys? The tiltle "pope" derives it's name from "pontifex maximus" which is lain for "high priest". While the pagan high priest of ancient Rome was called pontifex maximus, the romans also called the jewish high priest pontifex maximus and, once the Church was established in Law by Constantine, who had CONVERTED to Christianity, (and whose mother, Saint Helena, founded most of the holy places in the middle east), the Christian high priest, the bishop of Rome, was called, in latin, pontifex maximus as well. The name stuck, Not Christian? What about the Virgin Mary? Is she not in your King James version of the Bible either? The "Hail Mary" is a prayer based on various quotes from the Bible from the Archangel Gabriel, Saint Elizabeth and the Blessed Virgin herself. Oh, but I guess that's all part of Roman pagan beliefs too. If you'll excuse me now, I must go burn some of my cereal to the Lares, as I forgot to do that this morning, then I'm gonna sacrifice a bull to Jupiter, Juno,and Minerva, and my dog to my Prime Minister....

stillakid
04-27-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
as far as the Human question."science" has proven that all humans came from one single woman.


Interesting, you're willing to use "science" when it's convenient in backing up your own beliefs, but scoff at everything else that "contradicts" the literal interpretation of the Bible. Typical.:rolleyes:

I went round and round trying to decide what to post next. I thought about putting some of the facts about species here. I thought about doing the math for you guys on the Ark question. I thought about out and out ridiculing the close-minded fundamental thought process.

However, in the end, I realized that fundamentalists will always have some kind of answer, some kind of conjecture, some kind of anything that will help preserve their notions of God and religion, no matter how much reality is thrown their way. Life is tough. Too bad. It's tough for everybody no matter what belief system they subscribe to. That doesn't make any one of them more right than the next. In the end, all religions are man-made. All religious texts are man-made. Until that day when a supernatural being appears out of thin air and reveals itself to everyone, not just those who "already believe," there can be no consensus on who is right or wrong in the religious arena. Until that time, we have only ourselves, and our relentless search for the truth about the elements of the Universe, it's design, it's makeup, it's mechanics, and the undying quest for the answer to why it is here and who, if anyone, did it.

I guess the good part is that most fundamentalists seem harmless enough, no suicide bombers in our midst I hope. Believe what you must to make yourselves feel better in this short lifetime we have.

In the meantime, it's been an education, interesting, confounding, frustrating at times, but enjoyable to trade opinions with everyone. I really am stupified that anyone still thinks that the Bible is meant to be taken literally. It's absolutely amazing, but the power of the human mind to compensate for that missing "spirituality" that so many people feel is creative enough to dismiss logic and sound reasoning. Most of the serious questions I posed here went unanswered or simply shrugged off without solid arguments, not that I really expected anything different. But, if there's one thing that I have learned in my short span of years, it is that you really can't change anyone's mind about anything if they want to believe it that badly...true or not.

Oh, well. Back to the important stuff. My boy's baseball game this afternoon. A bikeride in the park. A little office work. And, of course, Star Wars toys. Remember those? ;)

SithDroid
04-27-2002, 01:43 PM
Right on stillakid!:)

JetsAndHeels
04-27-2002, 02:51 PM
Dryanta,
I just want you to know how powerful your past few posts have been. I almost had tears in my eyes. I could feel your emotion as I read your words. God has truly worked in your life, and I want you to know that I have not lived as difficult a life as you, but He has still led me through the storm like he did for you. I also wanted to thank JesusFreak and BigBarada and everyone else on here for keeping the faith in here. Sorry I havent posted since yesterday, as I am in the process of moving. But thank you all like I said you are like a family to me on here and I just wanted to thank you. God bless.

Tycho
04-27-2002, 03:59 PM
Well, I am sorry I've missed this thread for the longest time. I am going to have to do some reading before I can really contribute. For now I'll joke, as it looks like any comments I make would be out of place and inappropriate until I read more of what's been posted. Plus it looks like you guys could use a laugh in here and 'lighten up' for just a sec.

As for me? The Force is my ally, but I might be a Sith. I tend to get confused. The Dark Side clouds everything. But I am by no means an orthodox Jedi. Somewhere between Anakin's pragmatism, Qui-Gon's reformation, and Count Dooku's corruption lie my own moral beliefs. Be wary. I have Palpatine's ambition!

Meanwhile, I am agnostic when it comes to earth's religions. I just love getting into these discussions because it angers me so much when those who profess their religion onto others point to my transgressions into what they call sins, but they don't know me and what I've done to contribute to my community, yet they have to gall to point out any of my "immoralities."

The first and foremost is I love SEX. I am straight, single, but have lost my faith for marriage (never been married either). Yet I have complete faith that great sex is never any further than the girl-next-door.

The actual matter-of-fact on this one is that it doesn't require faith. The empiracle evidence is already waiting for me :D

All that aside, I will soon no doubt be posting an extensive resume of what I have done for my community as I establish myself and seek the Supreme Chancel.... err.. um a position elected for public service.

But for my "weakness," which I bet several of my neighbors would attest to it actually being my strenght (grin), the so-called Christians would attempt to convince me I am going straight to Hell.

I don't believe that, but just maybe if you're right, I'll be taking your wives and daughters with me! Ha-ha-ahaaha...

Dryanta
04-27-2002, 04:15 PM
Hey Tycho,
Can't wait to see what you have to say.You have missed some good stuff

2-1B
04-27-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
There is only one path to redemption and that is through Jesus Christ. Catholicism seems to like to believe that people can stand in for God during confessions and that the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah is not a permanent, total change. Basically you only need to confess your sins and accept Jesus once, and that only needs to take place between Jesus and yourself. You don't need a priest to somehow translate what you say to God. He is perfectly capable of understanding you, in fact He understands you better than you ever could. So what's the point of confessng to a priest every few days or weeks?

I'm not here to argue with you over the validity of confession, but I will argue that there are biblical passages on which the sacrament is based, namely the part about "whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained." That has been interpreted by Catholics in a particular way, it may not be right but it's taken from "the Bible".



Originally posted by bigbarada
I am not talking about buying into a religion when I refer to a relationship with God. It's something personal. The Church was never intended to be the all-powerful entity that rules with an iron fist and determines who goes to heaven or hell. The Church was intended to be a place where fellow Christians could get together and fellowship, thereby strengthening their faith and helping each other when it is needed.

No argument there, I think it's a slippery slope for any church to start telling people they are going to hell for this reason or that. Wait a minute, you just posted "There is only one path to redemption and that is through Jesus Christ." So I guess there are times when people can claim to know of another's afterlife destination. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by bigbarada
I can point out many Catholic traditions that have links to pagan worship, if you want to hear them let me know.

Huh? I already addressed this a few pages ago, take a look at it and you'll see that there is nothing shocking or revealing about this history.


Originally posted by bigbarada
They weren't instituted under any kind of divine intervention

Again, you can't prove that it wasn't anymore than you can prove that the bible was. As my point has been all along, MOST of the stuff we believe is taken on Faith.


Originally posted by bigbarada
Thus I have a hard time considering the Catholics a Christian religion. In fact I disregard all religions as worthless crap. It's the teachings of Jesus and the Word of God that are important and They outline the only true path to salvation. Don't like it? I'm sorry, it might not be considered PC or considerate of others' feelings; but it is the truth.

Personally, I am not offended - but I think it's elitist to say that Catholics are not Christians. This highlights my earlier lamentation that so many "Christians" waste their time squabbling amonst themselves over who's right and who's wrong in matters of Faith.


Originally posted by stillakid
However, in the end, I realized that fundamentalists will always have some kind of answer, some kind of conjecture, some kind of anything that will help preserve their notions of God and religion, no matter how much reality is thrown their way.

I see the same pattern of thought. It's always been a desire of mine to sit down with a person who interprets the bible literally and get his or her reactions to the differences and inconsistencies within the Synoptic Gospels.


Originally posted by stillakid
Life is tough. Too bad. It's tough for everybody no matter what belief system they subscribe to. That doesn't make any one of them more right than the next. In the end, all religions are man-made. All religious texts are man-made. Until that day when a supernatural being appears out of thin air and reveals itself to everyone, not just those who "already believe," there can be no consensus on who is right or wrong in the religious arena. Until that time, we have only ourselves, and our relentless search for the truth about the elements of the Universe, it's design, it's makeup, it's mechanics, and the undying quest for the answer to why it is here and who, if anyone, did it.

Well stated ! :)

Dryanta
04-27-2002, 04:52 PM
Hey Caesar,

I'm a literalist(?) and I'd more than happy do discuss anything you want.I don't know if you want to it here or not.I'll leave that up to you.LMK

Dar' Argol
04-27-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Dar Just let me say I'm not in any kind of "rotten life" copetition.I personally would have rather lived my life than yours.

I was not trying for a "rotten life" Competion. I was mearly showing another example of a life problem where "comfort" was not found. I was not trying to win a pity election. I was showing where you had God to pull you through I did not.

And speaking of literal Bible translation, Since my father commited suicide is he not allowed into Heaven?? I would like to think he is in a better place. But the literal translation from the bible is that he should be in hell or limbo. That is not very "comforting".

Big-B, you say that there should be no mediators between you and God right? If that is so, why is it ok the other way around. When I was old enough to question what was crammed down my throat all my life I concidered this. MEN wrote the bible. MEN we did not even know. So how is to say they did not corrupt some of their writing, implimenting their own ideals into the writing. Can you honestly say that no one did this?? With anyone there is a certian amount of interpritation that happens. A friend tells me a joke. I laugh and think its funny. I tell someone else, but I can't remember it word for word. So I add some of my own, and add parts that I think make the joke better. The next person does the same, and so on and so on. You see what I am getting at. I think that anythin MAN has a hand in is not "devine". If God himself wrote the bible, that would be differant. But he did not, MAN did. But I do agree that there should not be any mediators between you and God. The same reason I feel about mass. I do not believe that I need to stand up, sit down, kneel 40 times in an hour and recite these prayers that have been drilled into be since I was young that I recite with no thought involved, just to worship God. I do it my own way. Through my actions and words. I put my mind into it, not just letting my body automatically do what it was "programed" to do.

That said, I need to step away for a bit, get back to what I am here for. Star Wars. Besides, I need to check on those Dino's!!:D

Dryanta
04-27-2002, 05:10 PM
Hey Dar,
I hope you didn't misunderstand my comment.we are both saying the same thing Neither of us gave out the info we did for a "pitty Party" but just perspective.
If you want me to judge where your dad is I can't.I don't have any idea if your Dad had a relationship with Christ or not.So I really can't tell you.That is between him and God.AS far a suicide being any worse than any other sin.I don't draw destinctions like that.Sin is sin.And I don't personally believe in pergatory so IMO he's not in limbo.Did I make any sense? and go check the dino's

2-1B
04-27-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Hey Caesar,

I'm a literalist(?) and I'd more than happy do discuss anything you want.I don't know if you want to it here or not.I'll leave that up to you.LMK

Thanks :) I have to go soon, so I will revisit this, but let me throw this out - Sermon on the Mount or Sermon on the Plains? Because 2 different gospel writers cite this event.

Take care everyone, gotta run. :)

Dryanta
04-27-2002, 07:45 PM
Hey Caesar,
I did some checking for the Sermon on the mount and sermon on the plain.
I started with the easiest routes first.Topical index and concordance.The topical index only shows one "sermon" in the four gospels;Matthew,Mark,Luke and John(You probably already knew their names).O.K. same with the concordance.Both references point to the book of Matthew.
so I check for "plain" in both.None in the gospels not even in the New Testament.
O.K. so I then check the word "field" in both.Field comes up once in John and twice in Matthew.All three times it's used in a parable as a field.
Not what we were looking for so I tried the only other word I could think of that might have been used.
"Valley"?Not a Mount,That too would be a contridiction in description of the same event.
Once in luke and it was in a quote from the book of Isaiah.
So what I have at this point is only one sermon.So I start in matthew and read before the sermon and after.No sermon in Mark Luke or John.
I read in each until I found a common event mentioned after the time frame set by the Book of Matthew.
Matthew,Mark and luke all share the first common event of the healing of Peter's Mother in law.No sermon in Mark or Luke Before that where it should have been if it were the same event.Following me?
Now in John I had to read further to find a common event after the sermon,Jesus walking on water.
So by topical index,concordance,and reading of the gospels with in the time frame needed,There is only one sermon written once and it's the sermon on the mount.The "sermon on the plain" does not exist in the Bible.
So no written Biblical contradiction there.If you would like all of the Chapter and Versus involved I'll be glad to give them to you.
This is kinda fun.Can we keep going?And I mean no sarcasm.If there are contradictions I want to know more than you do!!
Any help to you at all? I hope you followed me alright.I'm not very good at putting things down for others to understand.

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
BigB, I'm sorry but those statements you made about Catholicism are completely ignorant. The King James version of the Bible? When do you think that was written? And by whom? Did Jesus Christ Himself write it five hundred years ago? It was translated from the CATHOLIC Bible in England during the reformation and the people who translated it just simply took out all those Catholic things in the Bible that you say are not there, including several books. You're absolutely right about one thing: YOUR Bible may not have those things in it but YOUR Bible was made by people who took all the things out of the ORIGINAL Bible that they didn't like.

First off, the books in question here are the Apocrypha, the Old Testament books and New Testament books. The NT Apocrypha has never been accepted by any Christian Church (Catholic included) as canon. Thus, I will not discuss those. During the Reformation many sects split off from the Catholic Church and many underground sects became public because they no longer feared persecution. The Baptists were one of the underground sects of Christianity which were never aligned with the Catholic Church. The ancient Hebrew manuscripts of the OT are the ORIGINAL version you mention, not the Catholic. The books of the Apocrypha are great works of literature; but are not considered to be divinely inspired by anyone except for the Catholic Church.

King James did not write the "King James" version of the Bible, he simply financed the first English translation of the Bible, which was actually translated by 47 scholars in England not KJ himself. The KJ version was translated from the Greek and ancient Hebrew manuscripts. These ancient manuscripts make no mention of the Apocrypha. The "New King James" version is more in line with the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and also breaks the language down into more modern English. It is the version of the Bible I use.

The Catholic Bible you read is called the Douay Bible, it is the Roman Catholic Translation of the Latin Vulgate, translated from the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts by Jerome in Bethlehem around 400 AD.


Of course the rosary isn't, it's only about a thousand years old, but do you know what the rosary actually is? Probably not, so why are you tearing it up?

The rosary is most definitely not mentioned in the Bible. It was also not invented by the Catholics; but has it's roots among ancient pagan nations. It was used as a sacred instrument among the pagan Mexicans and is mentioned quite often in Hindu sacred books. It is first introduced in an account of the death of Sati, the wife of Shiva.


From the Vaivashi Puran - Kennedy's Ancient and Hindu Mythology - London, 1831:
On hearing of this event, Shiva fainted from grief; then, having recovered, he hastened to the banks of the river of heaven, where he beheld lying the body of his beloved Sati, arrayed in white garments, holding a rosary in her hand, and glowing with splendour, bright as burnished gold.



What about the Virgin Mary? Is she not in your King James version of the Bible either? The "Hail Mary" is a prayer based on various quotes from the Bible from the Archangel Gabriel, Saint Elizabeth and the Blessed Virgin herself.

Let me just say that the Bible doesn't hold Mary in the high esteem that the Catholic Church seems to. The Catholic Church sees her as part of the trinity (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), with Mary being the "Holy Ghost" or "Tabernacle of God." This believe does not have it's roots in the Bible; but in Babylonian idolatry. The worship of Nimrod and his mother from the early chapters of Genesis. Mary was just a woman who was chosen by God for her pure heart. Once she died she more than likely went to heaven; but does not hold any influence over God or His decisions.

Bosskman
04-27-2002, 10:31 PM
BB Mary is not part of the Holy Trinity. I don't know where you heard that one from but that is, quite possibly, the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The Holy and Indivisible Trinity consists of the Tree Divine Persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit. The term "Holy Ghost" is interchangeable with "Holy Spirit." It is just not used as much nowadays because the common usage of the word "ghost", which used to be synonymous with what we call "spirit", is a word that is now more commonly used to describe the disemodied soul of a person who has died.

Also, since you seem to have no idea idea as to what the rosary is, I'll fill you in: The full rosary constists of the following prayers:

The Apostles Creed
The Our Father
Three Hail Mary's
The Glory Be

After these prayers are recited, fifteen decades consisting of ten Hail Mary's each preceeded by an Our Father and followed by a Glory Be. Each of the decades is accompainied by a meditation on fifteen mysteries of faith, centred around events in the life of Christ and His Mother. The first five, the Joyful Mysteries are: The Annunciation, The Visitation, The Nativity, The Presentation, and the Finding of Christ in the Temple. The second five, the Sorrowful Mysteries, are: The Agony in the Garden, the Scourging at the Pillar, The Carrying of the Cross, and the Cricifixion and Death of Our Lord. The third, the Glorious Mysteries are: The Ressurection, The Ascension, The Descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles at Pentecost, The Assumption, and The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven. Rosary beads are used to keep track of these prayers. ALL of these Mysteries are to be found in the Bible (the last two are taken from Revelation, and the rest from the Gospels). I can't remember the exact details of the origin of the Rosary but it was definately in the Middle Ages. Other religions might use beads as a means of counting their prayers, (I know Buddhists and some Muslims do) but that doesn't mean that the practice is a pagan one. Pagans read books, wrote words, and said prayers before Christians did, does that mean those things are pagan too? Certainly not.

As far as the apocrypha goes, some books of the old testament are considered as apocrypha by protestants but were never considered so by the Catholic Church. I thing Maccabees one and two might be in there somewhere but I'm not sure. These books were dropped by protestants who did not agree with them. The new testament apocrypha, such as the so-called gospel of James, were never considered part of the Bible so I don't see your argument there. And finally, the inspired authors of the entire New Testament were CATHOLICS. The Apostles were CATHOLICS. They might not have used the term "Catholic" back then, although it is entirely possible that they did, but the Catholic Church of today is descended from those Apostles. Every Catholic Priest can trace his line of ordination back to Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles. Catholics, inspired by God, wrote the New Testament.

Protestant Christianity is to Catholicism what EU is to the Star Wars Movies. That is a HISTORICAL FACT. There is no room for debate on that.

Bosskman
04-27-2002, 10:37 PM
PS BB, Catholics do not WORSHIP Mary. I think I covered this in an earlier post. Ever hear of the Aposles Creed? The part about the Communion of Saints? Does that ring a bell? Next your probably gonna tell me that's pagan too.

bigbarada
04-27-2002, 11:38 PM
Don't worry, I know that Mary is not part of the Trinity. That was what I said in my post.

Show me EXACTLY where the rosary is mentioned in the Bible. It's not, is it? Thus it has no place in the worship of God. Plain and simple.

Baptists are not protestants, I mentioned that. They simply surfaced when the protestants broke off and got lumped in with them.

I think if you would read my post more carefully then you would realize that I agree with you on some points. I said the NT Apocrypha was not canon. We agree on that. The OT Apocrypha is nowhere to be found in the original Hebrew manuscripts. It has also been widely considered by non-Catholic Bible scholars to be non-canon.

It's obvious we are getting nowhere with this discussion and if things get more heated this thread will be closed, so if you have any further issues with my beliefs, Bosskman, we should handle this with PMs.

By the way "fact" is merely data that can be interpreted different ways. "Truth" is something we all know in our hearts, and that is what the message of Jesus is. Truth not fact.

SithDroid
04-28-2002, 12:38 AM
You know what I find quite funny about this whole thread, I've noticed that a lot of the SSG religious members who are pro-bible are the same people that do not have a problem with midichlorians in TPM. How can you support the idea of the midichlorians if in "real life" you dismiss science as fact? Lucas invented the midichlorians in order to give a more "scientific" reasoning to the Force. I always liked the Force as mystical and unexplainable. Funny how our views are fliipped in real life. Just an observation.

bigbarada
04-28-2002, 01:11 AM
That is kind of wierd and an interesting observation, SithDroid.
The religious or spiritual elements laid out by the OT always made me a little uncomfortable. Just like the intense Evolutionist standpoint of Star Trek. Hence, when Ep1 introduced Midichlorians and grounded the Force in more physical reality, it kind of eased my mind about the whole deal. It no longer felt like I was partaking in a religion, which I don't recommend to anybody no matter what the religion; but felt like I was simply enjoying a story again. Not saying that every Christian on this board feels the same way; this is just my story.

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 10:17 AM
I personally don't like the concept of midichlorians.Not from any kind of religious stand point.From a story telling(?) standpoint.I never really though of it as a potential religion,just fantasy.But at the same time I can fully understand BigB's concerns.They're not mentioned once in the OT.Then all of a sudden there they are the biological connection to it all!!I don't care for them and personally wish the idea had never popped in GL's head let alone make it to film.But that's me.

stillakid
04-28-2002, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by SithDroid
You know what I find quite funny about this whole thread, I've noticed that a lot of the SSG religious members who are pro-bible are the same people that do not have a problem with midichlorians in TPM. How can you support the idea of the midichlorians if in "real life" you dismiss science as fact? Lucas invented the midichlorians in order to give a more "scientific" reasoning to the Force. I always liked the Force as mystical and unexplainable. Funny how our views are fliipped in real life. Just an observation.


Just thought I'd peek back in here for a sec. I had the same train of thought on this. The Bible is a manmade story. Star Wars is a manmade story. How many people would "believe" it if George said that these were actual events that happened? Not too many, so what's the motivation to "believe" the same kind of story, aside from the fact that it's much older and more difficult to corraberate the evidence? I have my own ideas regarding that answer, but they border on insulting. But the basic gist is that ... nah, not worth the fight...but let's just say that the Force (religion) can have a strong influence on the weak minded. Happy Sunday!

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 11:17 AM
Hey stillakid,
I thought you wanted to avoid being insulting?;)
Btw how did your son's game go?Did his team win?
Just curious and happy Sunday to you too

bigbarada
04-28-2002, 12:48 PM
Yeah, what's the deal with that, stillakid? So, you're saying if we don't agree with you that instantly makes us less intelligent than you? Sorry, I highly doubt you are the most knowledgeable person on this planet. And to totallly dismiss something that billions of people have believed for centuries, because we like to think that we've never been more enlightened than we are now; that's just arrogance of the worst kind. I don't put trust in any religion on this planet, past or present; but I definitely don't believe that those who do are stupid for some reason, just mislead.

I've noticed from personal stories here and what I have heard throughout my life, that true Christians with a strong faith and belief in God aren't the sheltered simpletons most "non-Christians" would like to believe. In fact, I think it takes an enormous amount of character and personal strength for someone to admit that they can't handle life alone. There is no shame in getting help from God. The people who say, "Just trust yourself and be strong and you'll get yourself through it," well sadly they are setting themselves up for a major fall.

Bosskman
04-28-2002, 02:15 PM
bigbarada, I totally agree with your last statement. I could not have put it better myself.

stillakid
04-28-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
Hey stillakid,
I thought you wanted to avoid being insulting?;)
Btw how did your son's game go?Did his team win?
Just curious and happy Sunday to you too

I really do. Sorry if I skirted the line. But if we are to share opinions freely, that is mine. I think that most people who subscribe to pre-canned religious doctrine, especially to the point of taking something like the Bible literally, suffer from a lack of self-confidence in themselves. They need a formula, a structure of belief, built by others so that they have something "real" to fall back on in times of need. So anything that might topple that structure is immediately dismissed out of hand for any number of reasons, all for the sake of preserving that sense of security. (this applies to all religions around the world, not just our popular choices in this society.)

Take BB's statement a few posts ago. He implied that he was uncomfortable with the idea of the Force being a religious ideology. The introduction of a scientific point of view into the story calmed his fears that he might actually like, or accept, a differing viewpoint than the rigid teachings of Christianity. Now I may be reading his personal attitudes incorrectly and I don't mean to single him out, but I know that many other people in this world do operate from that level of fear. It's a fear that if just one item of minutia in their "faith" structure is suggested to be incorrect in any way, then everything that they rely on for comfort in this lifetime could crumble around them leaving them with nothing. That is why I think that such staunch, almost militant, belief in a literal interpretation of "holy" texts is a weakness of character and at it's worst, a danger to the genuine advancement of human morality.

It's difficult, and incorrect, to group all of us into one circle or another, as we all have varying degrees of "belief" and different ideas concerning the specifics of those beliefs. But, if I'm getting this right, the "fundamentalist" group seems to think that "God" is not included in this "closed system" that we have. He is above it all. He can supercede all laws that govern our Universe. If that is true, and not a one of us know whether it is or not, then with all the troubles we petty humans have, why hasn't He shimmered into view to prove once and for all that one religion is the correct one and the rest are all hooey? Why the subtlty? What makes you so certain as to the validity of a piece of fiction written two-thousand years ago? Words that contradict the empirical evidence that human beings the world over are finding every day?

I pose those questions not really expecting genuine answers to them. They will be ignored as quickly as the other difficult questions that I asked in many previous posts. While at 9:30 Mass this morning (yeah, no kidding), our priest said something interesting that made me think of all of you. He said, "Having faith is easy, but the road to truth is hard." If you continue to close yourself into that pre-fab ideal of what God is, then, while you may find contentment in your years, you'll miss out on an even greater glory than you could ever have imagined. It takes courage, it takes strength to step away from that shelter that was built for you, but only you can do it if you want to. Not to end this with a cheesy movie reference, but it's not unlike The Matrix. There is a whole other world out there waiting for you...the REAL one...but only if you take the difficult path to see it.


And, thanks for asking, they did win! Close nail-biter, but they pulled it out in the end. Sunday is grand, beautiful blue Southern California sky. Enjoy your day!:)

SithDroid
04-28-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I think that most people who subscribe to pre-canned religious doctrine, especially to the point of taking something like the Bible literally, suffer from a lack of self-confidence in themselves. They need a formula, a structure of belief, built by others so that they have something "real" to fall back on in times of need. So anything that might topple that structure is immediately dismissed out of hand for any number of reasons, all for the sake of preserving that sense of security. (this applies to all religions around the world, not just our popular choices in this society.)

I know that many other people in this world do operate from that level of fear. It's a fear that if just one item of minutia in their "faith" structure is suggested to be incorrect in any way, then everything that they rely on for comfort in this lifetime could crumble around them leaving them with nothing. That is why I think that such staunch, almost militant, belief in a literal interpretation of "holy" texts is a weakness of character and at it's worst, a danger to the genuine advancement of human morality.

But, if I'm getting this right, the "fundamentalist" group seems to think that "God" is not included in this "closed system" that we have. He is above it all. He can supercede all laws that govern our Universe. If that is true, and not a one of us know whether it is or not, then with all the troubles we petty humans have, why hasn't He shimmered into view to prove once and for all that one religion is the correct one and the rest are all hooey? Why the subtlty? What makes you so certain as to the validity of a piece of fiction written two-thousand years ago? Words that contradict the empirical evidence that human beings the world over are finding every day?

"Having faith is easy, but the road to truth is hard." If you continue to close yourself into that pre-fab ideal of what God is, then, while you may find contentment in your years, you'll miss out on an even greater glory than you could ever have imagined. It takes courage, it takes strength to step away from that shelter that was built for you, but only you can do it if you want to. Not to end this with a cheesy movie reference, but it's not unlike The Matrix. There is a whole other world out there waiting for you...the REAL one...but only if you take the difficult path to see it.

I couldn't have said it better myself stillakid. I'm glad that you have stood firm and posed questions that nobody seems to answer. I'm behind you 100%.

Bosskman
04-28-2002, 03:50 PM
Stillakid, I agree with a lot of what you're saying but here's my point. Although some Catholics (I'm a Catholic so I'll use that example) are of the type who have never questioned their beliefs and just believe them because they're told, or even just go through the motions of standing and sitting and kneeling at mass, I am not one of those Catholics. I am not in that "comfort zone" you're talking about. I don't believe stuff ONLY because the Church teaches them. Yes, I have faith. My faith, however, does in no way impair my abilities to think analytically and logically. I AGREE with everything the Catholic Church believes and teaches, I am in no way some kind of zombie. I have thought long and hard about my beliefs, as have many other Catholics I know and have come to the conclusion that they are right. What is your problem with that? You're putting your foot in your mouth. You're telling me to think for myself and not accept "canned dogma", but in fact, you're pushing you're canned dogma onto me. I have thought for myself and have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith. I'm not telling you or anyone else on this forum to take my-or anybody else's- word for it. If you have your beliefs, that's fine, if you're beliefs are not Catholic, that's your business, not mine, but I AM A CATHOLIC OF MY OWN FREE CHOICE AND NOT SOME MINDLESS ZOMBIE SLAVE! Get that through your head.
As for those fundamentalists, most of whom are not Catholic by the way, I think they do shut out the truth sometimes. I think that fear and ignorance play a big part in that. They're causing themselves so much unneeded problems by worrying about stuff like dinosaurs and clones. I don't mean this as an insult to them, I just know that, if they have faith enough, that they will see that those things don't matter at all. Back when Darwin's Origin of Spiecies came out in the 1850s, the fundamentalist, literalist denominations were in a frenzy over nothing. It still hasn't changed. Science cannot contradict God. It can't. There is no way. It is impossible. That I know. Was I around back when the world first existed, certainly not, do I know the exact means God used to make the universe? Certainly not. It is sometimes interesting to speculate but I DOESN'T MATTER!! I don't know why people get all worked up about stuff like that. God created the universe. How exactly He did it, nobody here on earth knows exactly. WHY He made it is what matters, not HOW.

By the way, I think AOTC might just be the best SW movie ever, even better than ESB. I hope I'm right.

bigbarada
04-28-2002, 04:00 PM
My discomfort in the religious aspects of Star Wars were not a product of my inability to accept other possibilities. I was young for the entire run of the OT and my father, being a baptist preacher, was very suspicious of anything he believed to be "demonic" in any way. My brother and my fierce interest in SW had him pretty much convinced that we had been brainwashed by a cult. And when he started watching the movies he was even more adamant about the idea of GL trying to start another religion. Thus SW in my house was banned completely, any toy or book that my dad found was immediately thrown away. This is why I was bothered by the religious tones of the OT, because it fed my dad's suspicions. This is also why the intro of the midis into Ep1 didn't bother me at all. I used to take my dad's word for everything; but now I don't. When he tells me of a belief of his I ask him to show it to me in the Bible. Most of the beliefs he raised us on aren't in the Bible; but simply a result of his own paranoia.

After I joined the Army, I made it a point to question everything I had been taught. I studied evolution and as much science as I could. I read up on the history of Islam although not the doctrine. I studied up on the doctrine and beliefs of Wiccans and Witchcraft (not one and the same as many believe). What did I learn from all that? I learned that religion has only empty tradition, with no meaning behind anything anymore. I learned that science doesn't have the answers, all it has is data that can be interpreted to prove and disprove God at the same time.

An analogy, a police car gets a call that someone is being attacked on some street corner. When the car arrives at the scene the policeman shines his spotlight on a man kneeling over a woman's dead body with a knife in his hand. Instantly the policeman assumes the man stabbed the woman. However, the only fact in this case is that this man was standing over this woman's body and holding a knife at the exact moment the policeman shone his spotlight on them. This leaves two distinct interpretations of the event:

1. the man killed her and was caught before he had a chance to get away

2. the man heard the woman get attacked and rushed to help, only to find her already dead with the knife still in her. He pulled the knife out at the exact moment the police arrived.

Both scenarios are completely within the realm of possibility. The only fact in this case is what the policeman saw and even his word is only trusted because of the position he holds. He can fudge the facts to implicate that man and he will be believed.


If you accept the idea that God exists and the Bible is true, then all the scientific empirical data fits quite nicely in with the literal biblical interpretation of creation and the flood.

Consider it fear or a weakness of character if you want. All I am concerned with is that I am doing right by God what people think of me is not important.

stillakid
04-28-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Bosskman
If you have your beliefs, that's fine, if you're beliefs are not Catholic, that's your business, not mine, but I AM A CATHOLIC OF MY OWN FREE CHOICE AND NOT SOME MINDLESS ZOMBIE SLAVE! Get that through your head.


This is what I meant when I said that it was dangerous to lump people into one group or another and that we all have varying degrees of "belief." Generalization is a useful tool when dealing with broad topics, but there will always be exceptions. As you've stated, and as has been clear with Barada, you've taken the steps to research and "meditate"(?) upon what you've been told to believe and have come out the other side agreeing with it. That's fine. Some people go through that process. Many more do not. It is generally those people who drop Scripture Bombs in forums, on painted signs, and elsewhere like Jesusfreak, who mysteriously vanished and refuses to particpate in any meaningful debate. I think that it is he who falls into this special category, although I admit that I really don't know, because I don't know him beyond his posts here.

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 05:52 PM
o.K. I'm back
I am really tired of being talked down to by people who state repeatedly"no one Knows" That statement alone is a contridiction.If no one knows how do you know that?

Almost everything some have written has been laced with condesending tones.Not to mention thinly vieled insults.
I have no idea what questions you're talking about,really.I have tried to answer everything put before me That I could.Within my ability to research it or rely on information I already had.Post them again.Come on.If it bothers you that much to be ignored set'em up.No really,lets get beyond all the rhetoric that's been spread around here.

Some of you just keep saying the same thing over and over.Trying to convince yourself of it?No genuine answers.Really or just answers you don't like?And if no one knows anything who are you to judge what's a genuine answer and what's not?I have tried.
What do I get for it?Called irrational,brain washed,intollerant,weak minded,basically an all around idiot.Oh and the classic potential terrorist.That one is especially intelligent.If you know nothing than where do those thoughts come from.
Now I have a lack of character.O.K. A 16 year old girl comes on here and askes a good question.Did you know she loves science,Or how about she has summer job lined up in a grocery store?Or how about the completely mundane information that her dad works for wal-mart?I do because there are two people here I am concerned about,her and another.So what did i do?I went to the one source I have to gain some insight into them and how I might help.These forums.
The second person I am concerned for is the moderator of this forum.Did you not read his postes?Did it make you care for him at all?I don't see your superior emotional state and intellect running to his aid."life is Tough".Oh thanks so much for that incredible insight,I bow to your superior wisdom.So what now ?Am I a stalker or some other form of devient?Or am a person with real courage of his convictions to want to do something?Well? I have taken a very small amount of my time to try and get to know the people I'm speaking to here to the best of my ability.Why?Because I care for them.And you too.Stillakid,Your married,a father.You are the same age I am and you are writer and freelance camera man.Big deal right?Common knowledge.Posted here in these forums.With enough effort easy to find.Why would I want to.To make a feeble attempt to understand you.And be sure I don't pass any unfair light on you. Because I have no need to put you down,let alone without knowing you at all.You don't seem to have that problem.What do you know about me?What I posted here is more than you needed to know.

Well how about it?I was damaged emotionaly and need a crutch and God in a can.Or how about My experiences made me crack up.Yeah right.I walked out of the otherside of most of my life without any faith at all.I have been where you are.You only have half of my perspective.You wanted the physical to what I was trying to say and I gave it you.No invisble spirit no written text to decipher or study.You ignor it because you must be convinced there is something wrong with me.Was it a lie?Made up maybe?

That is why I don't prefer these conversations without being face to face with a person.I'd bet the assuption is I'm screaming mad right now.You'd be wrong.If I could look you right in the eye you would know what i'm telling you.You would see it instead of the hunk glass and plastic infront of you.But Hey that's from a weak minded bigot who needs a crutch to make it though.


You are the ones who rely on the crutch of your own ego's.You all have the real comfort zone of making your own rules and hiding behind others opinions.There is no original thought behind any of it.It's not yours. Neither is mine but I have the firm knowledge that God wrote his word down for me and you to get the real deal.
Stillakid you've mentioned some extensive research you've done .Post it.I don't care if it takes a year.If you're going to sit there and look down on me as weak minded person incapible of making it though without some fictional story then be ready to back it up.ALL OF IT.Or back off the rhetoric.

If that sounds harsh sorry.Not near as harsh as you have been to me and my person.
And as far as the evolution dinosuar bit,mentioned by Bosskman.It does matter.Don't you get it?If the account of creation,adam and Eve,and Noah's ark are not real.Then God lied to Moses on Synai."do not bare false witness"is what he said at the same time.He then turns and Lies to Moses?Just a story right?Alagory? How about an architype?No,No and No.If these things did not happen just as they are written then Jesus also lied.and God lied over and over through Peter and Paul and Luke and Jude and John.Because they all repeat portions of the accounts to make the new covenent understood and how it aplied to the old..If Adam was not real then Jesus lied when he said he was the Last Adam.If there is no first there is no last.Get it.And I'm sure that is a point some of you would like to make as well.Just in the oppisite of how i did.Science proves those things didn't happen so you're right The rest is all made up.Wrong,period.

So you all can call me what ever you want but understand this.If Jesus said "I am the way truth and the light"and it's true.then the rest has to be true.And it's being proven more and more everyday.
You want him to step down here and slap you right in the face.He did that already."a wicked and Perverse generation seeks a sign"
and how about this one"If you see a man raised from the dead you'll still not believe"Jesus healed ten lepers.One came back to thank and follow him.In my opinion people who alway seek a sign or undeniable evedence still denie it.Don't believe?

Look at history.It's littered with proof of past events right?History repeats itself right?Because everytime Man gets all enlightened he repeats what His Ignorant ancestors did.Always to a much worse degree.That's where a world with out The real God leeds.Seen it before and will again.

When you do see him I hope it'll be the greatest event of your existence.But hell is full of believers.No one there doesn't believe.And it's their own choice that put them there.

Wolfwood319 brought up the point in the very beginning of this thread that most christians he knew had never read the bible through as much as he could tell.And believe what you want but don't follow it blindly.I don't So please don't assume I don't know my own faith and God.Because I do.Fire at will!!!

Bosskman
04-28-2002, 06:39 PM
Dryanta, I'm sorry if you thought that I meant to say that those accounts were not real. Again it was my choice of words. Science has never proven anything in the Bible to be wrong. After reading my thread I see how you came to those conclusions so I'll try to clarify my point with an example: Athiests argue that the scientific evidence that "suggests" (but in no way proves) that the earth is millions of years old and that, through time, life evolved into what it is now, disproves the account in Genesis that says God made the world in seven days. My argument is this: "seven days" COULD literally, mean seven twenty-four hour periods, OR it COULD lierally mean seven "days" as in seven undertermined periods of time (maybe millions of years) like when people say things like "back in the day". I don't exactly know which one is right, but I don't look down on anyone for believing either. My point is, it is NOT simply an allegory, but a matter of language. Again, it doesn't matter HOW long it took God to actually create the world, just that HE DID create it. All "scientific "evidence I have seen support the sequence in which God created things as told in Genesis. This "evidence" however, is constantly changing and, as such, cannot be wholely trusted as it is the efforts of man to understand the universe. Figures of speech are to be found throughout the Bible. Christ Himself used them constantly. That does not make him a liar. I firmly believe in everything in the Bible, Genesis included. I'm sorry if I sounded like I don't.

bigbarada
04-28-2002, 07:01 PM
So we can avoid any arguments about translation, I'm going to quote the verse from Genesis from the Hebrew Torah. A matter of history: the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah so no slanting towards a Christian viewpoint can be claimed.

Genesis Chapter 1, verse 5: God named the light, "Day," and the darkness, "Night." It was evening and it was morning, one day.

From my Bible, New King James Version:

Genesis Chapter 1, verse 5: God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Nearly identical and both refer to "one day" as containing an evening and a morning. If the story was just an allegory then why would it stay the same through so many translations? Why would it stay the same for three religions (Jewish, Christian, Muslim)? I have no answer other than that I can presume that the events laid out in the Bible are real. The Jewish, Christian and Muslim depiction of the Old Testament stays constant up until Abraham's sacrifice of his son Isaac (the Muslims believe that Ishmael was the son that Abraham tried to sacrifice, this is were their version parts from ours. Ishmael is the father of all the Arab nations. Isaac, whose decendants are the Israelis and all the scattered Jews of the world, was Ishmael's half-brother.). Why have such consistency through three major religions if it is not true?

I am perfectly capable of accepting the notion that I do not have the capacity to understand how everything works. Science knows this too. We as a species are only given five senses and can only percieve in three dimensions. Is it so hard to believe that the real answers to the universe are outside the realm of our understanding? If we are the superior form of life in the universe, then it's a sorry time for the universe.

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 07:20 PM
Not problem bosskman.I just needed to put my point accross to all here not just in response to something that you had said.Wasn't my intent.Knock it off BigB.That was exact answer.Lol
I'll be here in this thread until it's either closed or no one ever shows up.By the number of views that may be a long time.
Also to everyone.My wife has been discussing these same exact issues with a couple people at her night job.I'm printing off 102 pages of postes so she can give them to them.I want all views shown to them and so does she.Isn't that one of the questions that have been raised here?I have the utmost confidence in my point of view in these matters and am not threatened to share all sides of this.I'm no fan of censorship in any form.
This is a matter of life and death and everyone needs to be as educated as possible from all sides to make their own choice.I thank you all for a miriad of opinions and outlooks and beliefs.They should be able to make at least an informed decision.And you all can be credited with that.

Bosskman
04-28-2002, 07:51 PM
bb, you're last statement was exactly my point, the complexities of the universe are beyond our understanding in this world. About the language thing, it's still a matter of words. No offense but try to figure that one out for yourself with the example you just gave me. Another thing with words is the word "man". Sometimes the Bible uses that word to mean "man" as in "males" and at other times, it is used to refer to both men and women. My point is, sometimes the Bible does not expressly say things like "people" as we understand it in this modern PC world of ours), when it clearly means that, and uses the terms men, which, at the time, meant humans in general men and women, in addition to meaning males alone. That's all I'm gonna say about that cause I seems like I'm beating a dead horse here.

Dar' Argol
04-28-2002, 08:30 PM
Ok, I'm back for a bit to remind everyone to PLEASE be civil and respects each others beliefs and opinions. It seem to me IMO that this is spirling(sp) into a heated arguement.


Originally posted by Dryanta

The second person I am concerned for is the moderator of this forum.Did you not read his postes?Did it make you care for him at all?I don't see your superior emotional state and intellect running to his aid."life is Tough".Oh thanks so much for that incredible insight,I bow to your superior wisdom.\

I do not what to mis-interperate your meaning here so. . . . can you explain this. I am just not getting it. Is it nice or not nice?? Are you a good witch or a bad one??? he he he:D

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 08:52 PM
Hey dar',
I'm not argueing.Sorry if it sounded that way.
Explaination for you of my cooment is this.I am concerned for your well being.If I were in your shoes I'd still be a hurtin' pup.I think you kinda eluded to that when you mentioned your hands shaking while typing.I want to be able to help you understand if I can,at least maybe a little better than you do.No ego involved,I don't know if I can.If you were wondering if I some how thought you were going to hell?I have no idea.I don't know where you stand with Jesus Christ.You didn't say and I didn't ask.No judgement involved at all.I would just like to be able to help you in anyway I can.The choice of if, and how is completely up to you.

Just in case btw,if the other person reads the post and wonders the same thing.Your question struck me as bright and curious.For the same reason I printed of this thread for a couple people to read and get all sides to make an informed choice.I'd like you to have the same opurtuntity they do.The information and ideas put forth in this thread and someone to talk to as well.Any oposing view points willing to do the same if she so chooses?Again up to you.My concern stems from her comment about tagging along in a school that day and being told something from a christian perspective that makes no sense.I would not want to have one stupid comment cloud her idea of a whole faith.Same with you ,your choice.I'm offering to talk but I won't chase anybody.

Dar' Argol
04-28-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
I am concerned for your well being.If I were in your shoes I'd still be a hurtin' pup.I think you kinda eluded to that when you mentioned your hands shaking while typing.I want to be able to help you understand if I can,at least maybe a little better than you do.No ego involved,I don't know if I can.If you were wondering if I some how thought you were going to hell?I have no idea.I don't know where you stand with Jesus Christ.You didn't say and I didn't ask.No judgement involved at all.I would just like to be able to help you in anyway I can.The choice of if, and how is completely up to you.


Dryanta, I thank you for your concern. I delt with this all a while ago. The reason my hands were shaking is because as I was typing it, it all came back really intense. Those couple of days I mean. Every hurt felling and what not came back and kinda took me by surprize. As I was typing, I remembered everything and felt everything all over again. That's why I went out for my smoke. That's why my hands were shaking.

And I was not asking about me going to hell. I was asking about my father, from a literalist POV. Because I remember it being drilled into my head that if you took your own life, you were going to hell. Then a friend of the familiy who is a priest said the church has taken a new stand on this issue. If the person is mentally troubled, as my father was, then it is not concitered a sin and therefore they get into Heaven. Kinda funny how the Church changes its mind all the time:rolleyes:

stillakid
04-28-2002, 10:15 PM
Guess I kinda hit a sore point. As much as I inferred weakness in the Literalist camp, the opposing viewpoint painting those of us "out of the fold" as Godless heathens destined for Hell is evident, even if left unspoken. Which is the worse insult?

But as much as anyone never meant to personally put me or anyone else down, I was not personally attacking either. Simply sharing my own viewpoint of the world and the way I see a particular group of people. If it hits too close to home and is disturbing, that's not my fault. I thought we were discussing general theology here. If I've ventured into areas that someone finds uncomfortable to deal with, then perhaps it might actually help his or her faith experience to face them head on. Remember, I'm just sharing my personal opinions, not attacking anyone.

I'm at least willing to accept the fact that we as humble human beings don't know all of the answers yet, but the "other camp" has already declared themselves the winners in some strange religion contest. Being raised in a loving Catholic home, I was taught how to reach out to others, to try to understand them, to forgive, and all of the other fundamentals that the lessons of Jesus asked us to do. But I was also encouraged in my Jesuit High School and other aspects of life to think for myself, reach for true understanding with meaning and that's what I am in the process of doing. I recognize that I may reach the end of my days without finding the "definitive" answers, and that's okay. I don't need one to find peace in my life and feel like I'm "walking with Christ" or however you want to express it. Maybe I'm deluding myself just as much as the next guy, I don't know. But I do know that I don't know, and oddly enough, I take solace in that. Because the moment that I feel like I truly "get it," is the moment that I will certainly know that I definitely am deluding myself. The concept of a Creator and Infinite Wisdom is much greater than we simple humans can comprehend and anyone that claims to be able to do that has to be fooling himself.

stillakid
04-28-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I am perfectly capable of accepting the notion that I do not have the capacity to understand how everything works. Science knows this too. We as a species are only given five senses and can only percieve in three dimensions. Is it so hard to believe that the real answers to the universe are outside the realm of our understanding? If we are the superior form of life in the universe, then it's a sorry time for the universe.

My god, I am so with you on this. There are a few things that we have uncovered about the Universe. We don't always understand how they work or why, but we know that they are there. But we don't have to look far to see the spectacular complexity that exists. Just the "simple" act of reproduction is far too complicated to be a mere accident. The sheer complexity of DNA and other microprocesses that go into reproducing a species boggle the human mind. It is far too unlikely that this complex process could have been initiated purely by accident, in my opinion. Maybe it was. Don't know. But when I look at it, my first instinct is to say that there is some kind of "intelligence" behind it. Science doesn't claim to have all the answers, but it's very purpose is to continue to search for them, whereas religion already has it all wrapped up with a tidy bow.

I can't even elaborate on it any further. BB, you summed it up beautifully there. There is more out there, I hope we can find it, if nothing else, to end the petty squabbling here on Earth.

stillakid
04-28-2002, 11:06 PM
In order to fill the pot of opinion with more details concerning the scientific search for answers, I want to share with all of you an email I just received from a friend of mine who has a far greater analytical mind than I. Just like the need to bone up for a Dennis Miller concert, it sometimes takes a few reads to figure out what is going on, but as he states at the end of the letter, it would be interesting to hear opinions about the following:

It is difficult to convey an idea that one does not fully understand, but occasionally one must try. After all, wasn’t in Feynman that said “Anyone that claims to understand quantum mechanics wasn’t paying attention” even though teaching the nature of quantum physics was his profession?

I have recently encountered an idea, a theory, which has stirred my imagination despite my poor understanding. To the best of my ability, I will outline it here, and then offer some of my own ideas too (I shall try to clearly identify which are my ideas and which are those of others).

In the science section of a recent Analog, an author presented an
interesting article that theorized, among other ideas, that there was no Big Bang. Rather, he stated, the universe is the product of the collision between two (or more?) parallel membranes.

Without delving into the nature of the membranes (or “branes” as the author calls them), I offer the following model to describe what the author might mean. Imagine that you have two sheets of plastic wrap, one blue, the other yellow. You arrange them in such a way that the sheets are parallel to one another, but very
close. Then, ever so slightly, you tap the two sheets together -- perhaps you get them vibrating with a breath on them with the universe starting “o” (consult your Hindu/ Tibetan religious ideas on the nature of the universe’s creation). However you choose, the plastic here and there makes contact, and, given the nature of plastic wrap, stick. Where the two sheets stick, given that one plane is blue and the other yellow, the contact interface appears green. This contact interface is a model in two dimensions of what the “brane” theorist claims is our universe manifestation. It is the contact interface between two multi-dimensional branes.

Now, what would possess him to dispose of a great theory like the Big Bang? Well, quite simply, the BB is developing some serious holes in it as we learn more about the Universe. And we are finding some mighty bizarre coincidences as our knowledge grows - bizarre only if one feels a need to stick with the BB, that is.

The ones that bothered the author are, particularly, the uniformity problem and gravity problems (if I recall correctly- I don’t have the article here to check). The uniformity problem is as follows: if there was a BB, the laws in different parts of the universe could be different. But everywhere we look, the universe is, well, uniform. Scientists have been laboring mightily
on explaining the uniformity problem away, but mostly what they have done is manufactured mathematical confabulations into what was once an elegant idea.

The gravity problem manifests itself in a couple of ways. The opposite of the uniformity problem, for instance, is a good example. If the universe were completely uniform at the BB (which would account for universal laws as per the uniformity problem), then how, in the very limited time (only 15 or
so billion years), did we get such complex gravitational structures as suns, galaxies and super galactic clusters? See, to form those things, one needs gravitational NON uniformity - some areas have to be denser than others for matter to start collecting in one place versus another (or if it were truly uniform, not at all, with all gravitational attractions balancing each other
out).

But then we also have the vexing problem that we can infer the mass of, say, distant galaxies, two ways. We can observe the behavior of objects in the gravitational well (their orbital rates and distances around the galactic “hub”) and we can infer the total mass by adding up all the observable masses in the galaxy. Ideally, these two figures would be more or less equal, but as we all know all to well, the two are off by nearly a factor of 10.

Again, complications have been added to the original BB theory to
compensate for these problems. Black holes spawned at the moment of universal creation. D ark matter. Dark energy. Even quantum mechanics has been suggested as a culprit (one I’m not denying here, just mentioning) - namely that infinities of universes are present, all overlapping each other - and while the energies of these infinite universes don’t interact, their gravities do. Why then are we not crushed under an infinity of gravities, I
do not know, but I’m sure the quantum mechanists have their reasons.

So what is wrong with these theories? Nothing, per se, just as there was nothing wrong with Ptolomey, exactly. Yet Occom’s Razor dictates that, should an idea be presented that accounts for all the evidence (and is not directly or indirectly countered by any of the evidence) - and specifically, if this idea is expressed more simply- then the new idea has a greater likelihood of being right.

Khun noted in his seminal work on paradigms, that
ideas in science often start as clean a clear examples of Occom’s Razor, but as knowledge increases, this simplicity vanishes. Theories become increasingly cobbled and complex over time to explain areas that don’t match the theory- namely because scientists, being human, are loathe to give up a really good idea (and a new one has yet to come around). Eventually, Khun
tells us, another idea comes along that does away with the entire hodgepodge.

Now the BB theorists will assure you that we don’t need a new theory. After all, they’ve spent their considerable careers trying to develop archane explanations to the Universe. Why toss out your life’s work? Perhaps they are right- I honestly don’t know. But I like the Brane Theory because it easily accounts for the universe in it’s form, both on a quantum level and a macro level - something the quantum and cosmological scientists have been
having a hard time doing - in a much more elegant manner than the BB.

Take for instance the Uniformity or Symmetry Problem. The current explanation among the BB Theorists is a massive instance of tunneling. I’m not saying tunneling doesn’t happen - the computer chip that is making the writing of this article possible, I am told, would not work if tunneling didn’t occur. But what evidence is there to suggest that the Universe tunneled shortly after creation? None, other than there is no other way to
have the BB and a universe like we have today.

But the Brane theory covers the Uniformity Problem. The reason the universe is the same everywhere is because it is caused by two (at least) macro structures, and its existence is governed by the rules that govern them. In other words - back to the model of the plastic wrap - the reason we are universally green is because we are governed by the original rules of the
two membranes - one of which is universally blue and the other which is universally yellow. Where ever there is contact, the rules will be uniform.

Or consider the author’s resolution of the gravity problem, as I infer his reasoning. There is matter (and space, and therefore time) where the two branes contact. The greater the contact, the greater the interaction between the two branes, the greater the manifestation of space/time/massergy. So, where there are galaxies, there is greater contact. The stars whirl around these points not because there is some secretive dark matter at its core, but because the very interaction that brings all of this stuff into being is at maximum contact there at the center.

He went on with solutions to other problems, and explaining data that we consider proof for the BB, but I shall skip these areas. He also said there would be a way to empirically prove his idea over the BB involving the polarization of the Cosmic Background Radiation. If you like, you can look it all up. I would like to offer some of my own thoughts relevant to his theory.

A few years ago, my father and I were traveling to Toronto, and (inspired by a science magazine’s article on the problems with the BB), our discussion turned to the creation of the universe. My father asked me, point blank, that if I could not accept the current theory, then what did I suggest. There, in the darkness, I came up with an idea that I called, jokingly “The Incredible Shrinking Universe”. In a nutshell, I supposed that the Big Bang didn’t happen: rather, the Universe is a fixed volume filled with massergy that is, in accordance with the 2nd Law, slowly getting smaller as it battles with spacetime. Gravity, I supposed, was a manifestation of this tension. My theory, I felt, explained some of the more aggravating problems of modern BB theory. But in actuality, I realized the theory only covered one of the observable problems: specifically, the increasing red shift.
This is a problem for modern BB theorists, but by only solving one problem, and not adequately addressing others, I slowly began to reject my own theory. That is good science, of course. But I was still enamored with the idea of material sublimation, so I never forgot the idea. And then, of course, years later, I have stumbled on the idea of the Branes, and it all clicks!

A second problem I was having with my theory, was a beginning. If the Universe started with the same volume it has today, but massergy filled a greater part of it, it seemed to me that instead of producing stars, galaxies, planets and me, the whole thing, almost by definition, would collapse into one great big black hole.

But now, let us suppose for a moment, that the Brane Theory (BT) is correct. Can sublimation now be considered as a possibility? It can! Not only does it not conflict with BT, but also it may BT and sublimation may support one another quite well!

To imagine, let us return to our model of the plastic wrap. Thetwo sheets stuck together. But let us suppose that the laws governing these sheets dictate that they be parallel. Whatever caused them to come in contact is removed. Perhaps they don’t separate quickly (although the time frame is relative anyway, so we need not worry about it). As the two sheets come apart, the contact boundary reduces (the green patch gets smaller) and
ultimately vanishes. Now - what would this look like to those beings that lived in the Universe created by the boundary? I offer the following theory: everything would get less massergistic - less dense if you will. Time would speed up (time is a function of the density of massergy in the matrix of spacetime after all). This would become evident through accelerating redshifts observed in very distant objects. Distant objects would appear to be racing away from us, the farther away they are,
the faster they would appear to be going. Perhaps there would be huge movements of galaxies moving (as if drawn by gravity) to hugely massive yet unseeable Great Attractors – like clouds before a storm front. And stars would swirl around the centers of galaxies like bits of flotsam drawn to the drain. I mean, if stars can only exist - if matter can only exist where the contact boundaries are, and these boundaries are pulling apart, matter is
going to concentrate at the points of these boundaries, thereby explaining (in a manner lacking in detail) why matter congregates near galactic cores despite the lack of matter to create the gravitational force.

The theory does have some benefits: no dark matter or dark energy needed to explain the Universe as we see it. On the other hand, what are these Branes - in a sense, I am offering one slight of hand for another. But, the shrinking universe and brane universe ideas, when combined, create a certain logic that seems to be absent in most of the BB convolutions: namely, complete adherence to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. It also may explain some of the bizarre aspects of quantum mechanics. I will offer two such examples, offered in the limited science understanding I have of these ideas.

The idea of tunneling seems bizarre to us macro humans. How can an object traverse from point A in space and end up at point B, without traveling the intervening space? Yet, quantum mechanic theorists (qmt) tell us it happens all the time. Electrons do it, for instance, when they move from one valence shell to another. They say that macro sized objects can do it too - your
house could one day pop up in Outer Mongolia and violate no law in the Universe. Seems intuitively wrong. Another bizarre quantum effect: take an electron, spin it 360 degrees. Have you spun it completely around? Intuitively, you suppose you have, but the qmts tell us that you have not. It requires being spun around twice, or 720 degrees to get completely spun. Now how can that be? Just one of the strange but true aspects of qm say the theorists.

If you’ve ever played with sticky plastic wrap as a kid (or as an adult- I don’t judge), you’ve probably forced an air bubble around, trying to get it out. Now, before I go further, understand that models aren’t perfect - and this one is REALLY imperfect, but bear with it and see if you get where I’m going anyway. So you are pushing the air bubble that is trapped between the two sheets around. Put your finger on it, and it seems to disappear where the pressure is put. Suddenly, a new bubble pops up nearby. To you, it looks like the air bubble has tunneled to a new location.

Now, I know it didn’t. That’s why I say it’s not a great model. But it is something you’ve seen, so it gives a starting place for an idea. If the Universe is these two Branes interacting, then perhaps tunneling is simply a…ripple in the Branes - they come out of contact and come into a new contact at a new place. Why do they carry information (like spin, etc.)? Because the
Branes themselves are lawful. Or the electron spin - when spinning it, perhaps the forces involved interact with the different laws of the Branes in such a way as to cause a double spin to be necessary. Perhaps, as we are seeing only the contact representation and not the stuff on either side of the membranes, we don’t see the full object that we call an electron. I don’t know.

And what about other effects in the Universe? How about the “handedness” of electromagnetic fields? The behavior of static electromagnetic fields? The strange behavior of semiconductors that (according to a show on tv the other
night) inexplicably lose their semi-conducting qualities as they get warmer at a rate that is faster then can only be explained by the temperature change? Often, the way we see the world that a problem is lodged in limits the solutions that can be constructed. If Brane Theory can offer some insight into our understanding of these and other questions, I’m all for chucking the BB and running with a new idea.

What say you, great gurus of electronics, engineering, and physics? I await your answer:)

Peace,

Dryanta
04-28-2002, 11:22 PM
Sorry dar.I mis read your post.I thought you had asked If you were the good witch or bad.And from there I made an assumption that maybe your thinking was along the same lines as Stillakids.As far as the unspoken inference that you were going to hell.Sorry for the confusion.
Hey stillakid.I ment no insult at all in my post,just putting it out there in the best way I could.Not true I could've done better just lazy I guess.
I don't want you to think that is how I feel about any of you.I'm not god,and as literalist(?) I believe that the bible is plain on how you get into the presense of god.That outcome isn't decided until your heart beats for the last time.So I do not see anyone automatically goingto hell because they don't have a personal relationship with Christ when I encounter them.
It's funny,You sound exactly like one of my older brothers Almost verbatum.I guess that's the real nerve you've touched on not that I might question my faith.I don't question my faith I just don't like it very much at times.
Oh btw Dar' I am not catholic.I really don't see suicide as different from anything else.So why "the Church" has changing stances on things I can't say. The Bible draws no distinction either.I mentioned this before.


The bible teaches of the age of accountability.In other words God is ultimately fair and just beyond our understanding.So in the case of Children who are unable to comprehend even the smallest part of the deal they are not held responsible.I also know the same applies for alot more situations than just children.There are millions of adults that for one reason or another are unable to grasp much.I firmly believe your dad would fall into one of those catagories for lack of a better word.
a question if I may?
I noticed most of the posts here have been made by people with a history or current relationship with the catholic church.Has this been your main avenue in the teachings of the bible,Jesus Christ,and christianity?
Just curious.And stillakid I really would like to hear more of your studies on these issues.No sarcasm at all.
Thanks for that stillakid.You posted it while I was writing this.I'll dig into it Tomorrow.!2:35 am.Tired.

SithDroid
04-29-2002, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Bosskman
I have thought for myself and have come to the conclusion that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith.

Science cannot contradict God. It can't. There is no way. It is impossible. That I know. Was I around back when the world first existed, certainly not, do I know the exact means God used to make the universe? Certainly not. It is sometimes interesting to speculate but I DOESN'T MATTER!! I don't know why people get all worked up about stuff like that. God created the universe. How exactly He did it, nobody here on earth knows exactly. WHY He made it is what matters, not HOW.

Well if no one knows indeed how God created the Universe, then how do we know how many days it took? And what measurement of time was a day back then. The modern unit of time we use, Egyptian, etc...? Certainly there was no one around writing this down in some book. Plus if we know which parts he created on what day, certainly there must be some kind of instruction booklet on how he did it. I mean how do we have this info and not the rest? Who's to say he didn't create it in a different order? Who was around when all of this was going on? Anyone care to explain this to me?

bigbarada
04-29-2002, 01:36 AM
Fascinating read stillakid! I would be lying if I said that I understood it all but it is very interesting stuff. Makes me want to play with some plastic wrap!;) Anyways, my inquisitive mind would love to read more. So if there is more, feel free to post it.

Sithdroid, I once said, "Mankind measures a day by the rising and the setting of the sun; but how do you measure a day when there is no sun? What is a day to God?" Not sure if I still believe in the non-literal translation anymore; and I would be a bald-faced liar if I pretended to know even one iota of God's will. Thus I will leave it alone and leave the question unanswered until either I become more wise or I die. Nobody ever promised us that we'd have all the answers, God never even implies it. Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you will never know "why" and get on with your life.

Tycho
04-29-2002, 01:44 AM
I have just read all 15 pages of this thread (at present it is 15 pages).

That is a miracle in itself. It took hours. What a way to spend a lazy Sunday!

Though I did not physically spend it in church, this was very close to it!

I think we all have a yearning in our heart for our life to have meaning, or for someone to be looking out for us.

That is human and normal for everyone.

Also, I'm afraid it will be normal for someone "new" entering your conversation and really participating, to make some mistakes and obviously forget some of what you have all written.

To Dryanta and Dar'Argol, your struggles both really touched me. You both sound like you are survivors to me, though you attribute very different reasons for that.

Stillakid makes very good arguments that fall in line with what I tend to believe and feel, but we differ on certain points too. (especially midi-chlorians in Star Wars).

I will try to participate in the current discussion, but I think talking about myself, my own experiences, etc. will better prepare me to ease into your conversation. Then you'll know more about where I'm coming from.

In any case, before I get into it, I just want to say that it's nice that even those amongst us who have had such hard lives are here because we enjoy the luxury of Star Wars collecting - something that binds us as friends, and lends us a healty escape from all these serious concerns and darker life-and-death matters.

Those that most deserve our pity do not have internet access, the luxury of time to post in this debate, nor would they be here as StarWars fans, especially collecting ones, I remind you.

In spite of what all of you have gone through, or believe our planned purpose is, you all clamor to this site worried about where Luminara and the Royal Guard shipped, and in what case assortment you'll find Yoda and Count Dooku.

Am I right? I'm not belittling you, and I certainly would be amongst you carrying on about that in another thread had I not found those figures, but I'm just putting our lives into perspective here.

We are not amongst the most unfortunate. Even people IN THIS COUNTRY (the US) die when they are in Dyantra's condition. He is fortunate he got the medical attention, in spite of my wish he did not have to suffer his condition. There are people in South Central Los Angeles as well as Appalachia (both US locations for those who don't know) who really WOULD have died in similar circumstances. And if they did have any action figures, it wouldn't have helped them enjoy any little additional part of their lives, as it does help Dyantra.

Dar'Argol, while defining yourself and your inner strength, which I admire you for, you've also defined yourself as someone who will reward himself with the material acquisitions of an unnecessary collection. You have gained much strength in your life's experiences, but you have comforted yourself in other ways than finding religion. You've found consumerism, or you wouldn't be here.

If any of you know how much stuff I buy (SW), I am certainly guilty of that as well. And of the sin of taking when one cannot afford ones wares (buying SW on credit - I assume that's a sin along the lines of some doctrine).

So no one here is depriving themselves of all the wordly pleasures to live a life in some kind of holy, pure state.

Our lightsabers will rest in our coffins in most cases here...

Now I can get into more of the meat of this - a couple new topics at a time.

Tycho
04-29-2002, 02:47 AM
I believe Han had every right to shoot first - killing Greedo in cold blood.

There is a big reason why this is related to this thread and religion, what I believe etc.

The first example of my entire life that I can think of someone I admire killing someone else, was this fictional example. Only it was very real to me - and it fostered my first real focused thoughts centered around death.

I was very disturbed that Lucas changed the scene - especially when the altered footage plays out and looks so bad - but I understand his motive for doing this. Don't mistake that with condoning it - the cantina scene should be completely restored to its original footage. But I got the idea in my head from an early age that there were worthless, incorrigible beings, who would harm others. But it they weren't smart enough to take care of themselves, they deserved to get shot like Greedo did. Like the Columbine Shooters, there have been those I'd consider putting on a hit list - and Greedo was at the top of Han's!

Now in college, I minored in secular ethics - a great deal of it centered around universalizeable principles. I'll illustrate the meaning of that by simple examples we all will agree on.

It is wrong to litter. Note this has nothing to do with the laws, getting caught etc. Just that if everyone does it, what will our land and ecology look like? It is better assurance that almost no one will litter if we educate people not to, and moreover, to respect our environment and symbiotic relationship with other life here.

It is also wrong to cut in line. Those at Midnight Madness can appreciate this. If the opposite were true, and universalized, there would exist no line. Those taking cuts for special advantages could not even do this, were everyone up to it. It is rather a universalizeable principle to be taught that one should not cut in line.

Let's get back to Han and Greedo, and Columbine. It's also almost a universalizeable principle that "Thou shalt not kill." At least within the context of a civilization (meaning a tribe, state or nation) it should be a universalizable principle to encourage the flourishing of the species. But as another pointed out, war (or organized competition between societies for resources - which does include power for all those pointing to ideological wars) - can all totally contribute to limiting populations and does ensure survival of the species, versus probably more prolonged and cruel methods, such as disease or famine.

But within a society, one shares common laws and culture, which would include the area's religion. I agree with Stillakid that religion and a fear of God and judgement was created to control the population, with simple tales and moral indoctrinations that could be taught from childhood on. That is easier than explaining Hobbes' State of Nature and John Locke's 2nd Treatise of Government - which no doubt I'll be referring to in one of my posts or another. But that is man's law, which can only be enforced by man's arm of justice. In the contract of government, the police fulfill that duty. However, the police cannot be everywhere, stop every murder. Therefore, a mythical social control is a great help.

I do not believe it is wrong to commit murder in the State of Nature - that is outside of society's laws. I live in American society, which by 50 different State laws prohibits murder, but I am welcome to say... go out to sea and kill Japanese whalers because I think the animals have more value than many of them do. This is not wrong. Anything that is wrong should not be possible.

I think it would be wrong were I to start moving my arms up and down really, really rapidly - and then start to fly. We are not made to fly, so we created machines to help us adapt. (this is another case of how we are evolving: 19th Century Man could almost not fly at all - 20th Century Man is flying by the thousands to Indianapolis next week - and for no good "Natural" reason).

If I told you I was flying there, just physically me - that would be outrageous. Or you'd think I was a bird who learned how to type.

But I can kill. I could do so to compete for resources, which includes power. Power is a natural ambition for the most adaptable of our species to seek. It is power you seek if you ever wanted to kill someone just to shut them up. You sought their quiet, obedience, or utter non-opposition, and in the most expedient, quickest way possible.

Now I am not married, but were I, it would be wrong under most circumstances for me to kill my wife and children. Furthermore, we could extend that to include policemen, my Congresswoman, and maybe even George W. Bush. Maybe...

(but the ends would not be the achievement of Democratic Party power - just Dick Cheney would end up the President...)

But there are less degrees of connections with a stable society to deter me from killing Brazillian Rainforest Slash-and-Burn farmers.
It would not affect the world order, nor would it even likely provoke a war against America.

The biggest reason for me not to kill besides universalizeable principles related to the contract with government, is fear of getting caught. With weapons and a boat, I might be able to go out to sea and kill some of the whalers and get away with it. Being a San Diego resident and affected by a lot of local problems here, if I 'wanted to kidnap, rape, and murder a 7 year old girl, then leave her body in a ditch,' and I thought I could get away with it - I might be David Westerfield (who note, I respected by leaving the man innocent until proven guilty). However, in this country, with our forensic resources, and our high concentration of population, someone might only get away with that on a rural highway in Wyoming - certainly not in Sabre Springs, California.

While I don't want to do any such sick act, a fear of God and punishment might abate the murderer from ever doing that to the poor little girl. Even the fear of police and man's law did not stop the purpetraitor.

What is more illogical of the killer's behavior is that they might likely be a parent themselves. Certainly universalizing correct behavior towards children would protect thier kids, or possible grand-children they might have in the near future.

I have personally rescued 2 people at sea because I would hope someone would do the same for me. It is for me, standardizing ethics. If I cared more about saving fuel, or not wasting my recreational boating time, I'd have let them drift in the waves until they were smashed into the rocks. Believe me - getting to them wasn't easy!

But God or even man's law had nothing to do with that - and my concepts of being a good person.

But back to being a predatory species that is designed to be capable of killing, I strongly believe one should be able to defend oneself. This is done on a variety of different levels. I am a student of the martial arts in a black belt program, but that is not at all what I am talking about. That's only one way. Entering into a contract with government, that is having citizenship, is the most common way. The taxes you pay allow the police to protect you. But for the same reasons you don't want to be murdered, you should set the example by not encouraging murderous behavior on your own.

I am just saying that killing is a means by which our species controls its population, and competes for resources including power. We break ourselves up into subspecies and define them by our race, economic status, upbringing, religion, even sex as the Vam Dam murder illustrates a competition for power over human sexuality - males versus females, and the jaded versus the innocent, or the parents of the innocent who might be perceived as having been the cause of harm to the empowerment of the murderer. I have my theories on that one. But religion can act as a failsafe mechanism to catch others who the long arm of the law cannot stop before it is too late.

Looking back at Columbine High, Ed Harris and Dylan Klebold had a suicide pact before they began their spree. And they killed some they knew to be openly religious. With a plan to escape punishment by law (their death wish), one of the last barriers to preventing them from committing their act of terror was judgement by God. So they denounced God to clear the path for them to wreak havoc on those they deemed had done them wrong and also which the law (or the school's rules, social conventions etc) would not punish. So Ed and Dylan had to take matters into their own hands.

In the end run, I think we need a better socially educated society before we will truly run out of our need for God. But it will happen. Not even in our grandchildren's lifetime though - at least that's my bet.

Dryanta
04-29-2002, 09:05 AM
Stillakid,
I'm not ignoring your post.I just need to read it agian and then I'll try,key word try,and comment. I haven't read all of yours yet either tych,I will in a sec.Sith droid,here is the only things I can say.and keep in mind they are based on what the bible says.So take it as you will. fair enough?
I believe what BigB posted about one day being sunrise and sun set on the first day being the measurement in time used.But there are two verses in the bible one in the old testament and one in the new that say a day in the sight of the lord is as thousand years and thousand years as a day.So there are some Christians that do agree with the idea of "a day' meaning anything from a thousand years to a 24 hour day. And you are right, from a biblical standpoint no one before Moses wrote any of it down.The first five books of the bible were given to Moses on Mt.synai.I believe that because God himself is the only one who knows the story and it was him that had to be the one to tell it.So If you don't take the bible for it's word than any number of events,orders,time frames, ect are just as valid as any other.See what I mean?I can only try and answer from my POV.Any insight into my thoughts anyway?
There is the sixth day theory that has been gaining ground in biblicai circles over the last few hundred years.That theory pertains to the relationship between the creation model and the second coming of Christ.I would be glad to go into that If you would like,I'll leave that up to you.I personally think it makes alot of sense.;)

Dryanta
04-29-2002, 10:43 AM
Lol I had to print out your post stillakid,just in an attempt to keep track of it all.Two things I feel I need to mention,I am not an educated person (see previous post) so I can't fully dive into this like some could.
Second I am biased.In case you didn't notice before(perhaps I was to subtle ) I am a biblical literalist for lack of a better term.So My post is from that POV.;) Oh and sorry for the way this is written.I'm reading and writing at the same time.
"it is difficult to convey an idea that one does not fully understand,but occasionally one must try"Now that has been proven by all here in this thread!!
Membranes or dimension contact is not a foreign concept in the Bible.Isn't that what the deal is really?God does not live in this dimension.But I believe he has had and continues to have contact with it every second of everyday.No news there.
Here's a shocker for you!!I never bought the whole big bang theory anyway.So I don't have a problem with chucking it either.:) I can't comment on all the math and gravity and mass and all that.Way beyond me in all honesty.
I think Occom's razor is as close to the points I would make about the creation account that I have ever heard.I believe God could have made it all any way he wanted to.Over any time frame and in any order.So maybe he did it all as simply as possible?Wouldn't that fit with this idea.Knowing that to be a truth we would learn,maybe he saves all of the trouble by doing it in the simplest way.and I may be wrong but I have never seen any credible unchanging evidence that directly or indirectly counters the idea.I think BigB pointed that out before.ANy and all evidence fall's in to the catagory of"in the eye of the beholder"Religious and non religious alike.We all carry a bias.As far as Khun I think both(?) sides of this discussion could apply that to the others beliefs and ideas.See what i mean?That's why I really do belief God did it simply to save an awful lot of effort.But we are expected to seek these things out.If God is real and the Bible true he would give us the ability to find that out by means of discovery and searching.I think scientific searching is just as difficult in some aspects as the personal or spiritual quest is.Tunneling or a form of it is in the Bible.Paul is in one town and "in that instant" was put miles and miles away.There are other examples too.That one in particular comes to mind.I don't have a problem with the idea.They've pretty well proven that it does happen so why would I?I guess I wish I could comment on it more but I can't.Please Stillakid more!!It was fun to read even if I do put my own spin on it;) Now I have to go read Tycho's epic:)

Dryanta
04-29-2002, 12:30 PM
Hey Tycho,
Thanks for the POV.I for one,don't expect you to try and remember everything that's come up before.If something has been mentioned before it won't be the first time.And I really do appreciate the insight into who you are.It' makes it alot easier and comfortable to be able to share.For me anyway.
I couldn't agree more with your Star Wars collecting points.That's why I even found this site.

I can't comment on any specific doctrine you may have encountered.But I don't believe the Bible teaches the use of credit crads is a sin.He just recomends against usury because it becomes a form of bondage to some.Also we as Christians are to give to any one and never ask for any kind of interest.Sorry I had to do that.:)
I have to agree with you on the han/ greedo thing.Should be changed back.
There a lot of people who don't consider littering as wrong.They do it all the time.I personally don't think it's wrong just stupid and lazy.
Cutting in line is again the same thing.Stupid and lazy.These people some how feel they are above common curtesy and are just so self centered that they have no regard for any one else at all.
I can't understand the idea of religion being man made and has been used to control people.it doesn't work never has.How does that explain people of all faiths have been brutally killed by the governments of their homes?Did it stop religions of all sorts from flourishing?Not at all.So I don't see that history itself shows that it has been a great help.I agree that religion and all of its pomp and circumstance are man made and empty.I don't subscibe to religion per say.The Bible is what I believe and that's it.If it ain't there I don't need it.I think your answer is that the bible itself is man made.I don't believe that.But I think you already knew that;)
As far as nothing that is wrong should be possible?Hmmm.I really have no idea what to make of that statement.No sarcasm just honesty.If litering is wrong then how could it be that it's not possible?Just as an example of my confusion.
I gotta say that fear of God does not deter any body from anything.never really has.There is nothing new under the sun.The world in general and societies as a whole have been a whole lot worse in the past when "fear of God" was common place.Didn't even slow 'em down.
as far as people who are mentally ill and do some horendous things,logical thought is beyond them anyway.So if some one has an illness that would make them harm even their own children then it should strike us as illogical because logic is absent from people in these conditions.
So if you denounce God it frees you from any obligation to him?Not.It is my belief that he's God and he made the rules.We don't have a say in it.It's not a democracy.
I guess I'm just tired.Tycho can you explain the whole killing thing a little more?I don't see anybody more deserving to die than anyone else.Would I defend myself and my family.Of course.Do I think some one deserves more to die because they mistreet the rain forest or Kill whales?NO.
I guess if the only ethics that can really be relied on are those that come from man then we're with out hope.Man's own selfish motives cannot be trusted.Not even with himself.Do we all need to come to some kind of consensus on what's right and wrong?Possible if we're all educated in the same montra's.
No independant thought what so ever.That I have no interest in.God doesn't either.We make our own choices.He Himself afforded us this right.I have always wondered about the idea of man made religion?Why does the bible completely and totaly oppose human nature?Nothing about what's in there is natural in any way.Because the writers needed to control by fear in an unseen always watching judge?Better read it again,the whole thing.The bible tells of a forgiveness that is complete and eternal.So if I screw up and God will forgive me where is the deterant?
Being caught by man?Again check for martyrs of all faiths.
As far as a better educated society that has no further need for god.We as humans have had "enlightened" periods in the past."we have no need of God, we've all decided that this is the way it should be"
Yeah right.Then it's war.Free thinkers and people all beliefs revolt.
Would I?Even If I was still the way I was.Had no use for the bible or anything in it.I wouldn't be controlled to that extent.But I guess you think I am now.
My guess would be you believe in evolution of some kind.Where does entropy come into this?How could that be true and have an evolved animal reach that level of harmony and completly over throw their baser natures?.If all things decay and become more and more less productive and useful.No sarcasm or bitterness any where.I really do want to hear more!!
P.S. I waiting for the first mouse droid comment.Please restrain yourselves :D

JetsAndHeels
04-29-2002, 01:09 PM
Dryanta,
Are you bringing up the whole sniffing toys thing with the mouse droid? If you read that thread you know I am a supporter of sniffing new toys. The smell is just divine.
I know this doesnt apply to the subject of this thread, but when I saw you mention it I knew I had to step in.

Dryanta
04-29-2002, 01:12 PM
Thanks for that Jango.I was actually trying to make sure no one brought it up in a way that Tycho might take offense to.Just politely,I guess.And gotta say Luminara was especialy strong smelling:)

JetsAndHeels
04-29-2002, 01:18 PM
Dude!!
Luminara knocked me out!! Dar Argol was nice enough to warn us of this, but I didnt see the warning until after. I popped her out of the bubble and took a whiff. Next think I knew I was seeing purple dragons and red unicorns....lol.
Not really, but that smell was very strong. I let her air out for about 20 minutes and then I was able to sniff it better. Luminara needs to be dealt with carefully though.

Tycho
04-29-2002, 01:41 PM
Well, I intend to take this thread with all seriousness, so I wasn't going to bring in my trademark MouseDroid jokes, but since you asked:

There is proof of evolution now - as people from our time and century are being naturally selected because they can endure the smells of toxic plastic and become happier, more well adapted people who will marry and reproduce versus becoming depressed or bi-polar because all they have is the great debate over the Light and Dark Side. Instead, a new breed of man is evolving now. You will note in his physical appearance the larger nose, with more flexible nostrils. This aids "new man" in being able to insert the plastic Mouse Droid.

Now where in your bible does it mention the Mouse Droid?

Well just in case I am wrong, (I am agnostic afterall)

from the chapter of LUKE: R4M9 -

"And God sent forth and sacraficed his only begotten Droid so that we could free ourselves from the sins of plastic blister card packaging that was separating us from our olfactory salvation!

He said "Behold The Mouse Droid! Come forth and stick your nose on me and be healed! Let the loose cardback's being tossed away represent our freedom from The Body, and let the particles of scented, vacuum-formed plastic become the Blood of Life, and the route of escape from the toils of this world into thy Kingdom of Heavenly Sensation!"

Whole religions have started because of this. Do you know that StarWars fans in Africa have become so devout in their worship of the Holy Mouse that instead of using the more mechanized American / British harness system, (the device worn by the pious, like the Jewish yammaka) which straps one MSE unit under each nostril, these indiginous tribal people have actually extended their nose piercings to permanently bond themselves with their mouse droids! Like the ancient rituals of extending one's ear lobes, they are doing this from early childhood on, and expanding their nostils in their devout worship of this gift from God.

This movement has recently caught on in Great Britain in the underground punk rocker scene and the Mouse Droid piercings has caused quite a stir. Irish Nationalist fans shopping for the R4M9 wave and wearing the old harness system for that fresh escape during a recent U2 concert, clashed with the new British Punk Mouse movemet at Toys R Us in London. Claiming the Reform-mouse-ion was a pagan blasphemy since the harnessed mouse could be removed and recarded in its blister shrine to preserve some of its scent when not in use, the Original Harnessers of the Mouse tried to prevent distribution of blessings from the R4M9 case upon the Punk Mousers sect. Unfortunatley, the result was bloodshed.

And a new holy war is upon us!

That is the problem with religion, interpretation, and condenming another's beliefs!

Dryanta
04-29-2002, 01:51 PM
Thanks for the laugh Tycho.lolPretty clever no doubt.

Dar' Argol
04-29-2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Dar'Argol, while defining yourself and your inner strength, which I admire you for, you've also defined yourself as someone who will reward himself with the material acquisitions of an unnecessary collection. You have gained much strength in your life's experiences, but you have comforted yourself in other ways than finding religion. You've found consumerism, or you wouldn't be here.

If any of you know how much stuff I buy (SW), I am certainly guilty of that as well. And of the sin of taking when one cannot afford ones wares (buying SW on credit - I assume that's a sin along the lines of some doctrine).

Tycho, thatnx for that post. It has a lot of insite there. Just a few things.
The matertialistc(sp?) thing is a result from my parnets up bringing. Rather then shower us with love, they showered us with things. I do not buy unless I have the extra money, my wife won't let me LOL. I do not forgo bills to feed my collecting obsession. I feed it when I have extra green. Case in point, I have been saving some of my tax return (that was extra) to get my AOTC figs. without that return I would have not. Until AOTC came out I hadn't picked up a SW fig for over 4 months.

I do have a religion of sorts. I believe that is I live a good life, commit no major sins(i.e. Murder, Affair, steal, etc.), give back to my fellow man, and just try to make everyone's life I meet a little better(mostly with a smile, I can get anyone to smile face2face), then I will most certainally(sp) get into "Heaven" or whatever afterlife there is. I just have a problem with most "Organised" religions and (no offence Dryanta) bible literalists who take every word as gold. I have met a number of ppl who no longer talked to me b/c I porposed my "Jesus was an Alien" theory. It was not ment to insult Jesus at all, it was mearly thinking out of the box. I believe that my final destination is between me and the being upstairs. If he does not like how I have lived my life, tough! I know I lived a good life!

Tycho
04-29-2002, 09:17 PM
I feel much the same way you do, Dar'Argol.

In fact it bothers me how the rules of the Old Testament were conveniently thrown out by Jesus, so that all one has to do is love him and accept him so their own sins may be forgiven.

That is convenient. Charles Manson can repent and get into heaven if he calls to Christ and the Lord and they answer him.

But it's more convenient for me. You see, now if there is a God and I want to murder whalers, rape their daughters before I take their "treasures" and sink their ships, I can do this with no fear of punishment from the law (as I have this fool-proof plan I worked out with David Westerfield and Dylan Klebold, Ed Harris et. all before they killed themselves) and then I can enjoy my time - all the while listening to Satanic Rock while I pillage and plunder like a true pirate of the high seas (all in the name of my Crusade for Dolphin-Safe Tuna) and then all I gotta do is accept Christ and I will get into Heaven.

This is great news! If you excuse me, I have to call O.J. Simpson!

Tycho
04-29-2002, 09:24 PM
Oh, note that my new "Mandate to Rage and Plunder"supports my theory that all things that are humanly possible are not wrong.

Jesus has just given me new power to break the 10 Commandments and still feel good about myself, however I still cannot flap my arms and take flight without some kind of device (s) to assist me.

So it is still wrong for me to jump off a building naked, and take off and fly to the French Riviera or something.

But I will get to loving Jesus, right after I'm done loving all your wives behind your backs. This is wonderful news.

I have to call Bill Clinton right away as well! And all those Catholic Priests like Cardinal Hard.one, LOL.

Am I missing something. Help me out here religious guys: why won't your God let me have a little fun?

I respect a religion more that says you can NEVER make mistakes against the laws of God - or you must toil for a long time to make many rights undo only 1 wrong.

I respect the pious who is not a hypocrite, who does not make excuses.

True disciplined Muslems, who practice absolute Islamic Law, I can really respect. I don't believe what they do - I also think they are way too serious, but they aren't saying one thing and doing another.

These are not the terrorists who obviously are. They are even betting their own lives on hypocrisy, but that's another story.

2-1B
04-30-2002, 12:02 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Tycho -- Ed Harris?

I know, I know, you meant Eric Harris - it was just a funny slip. :D



Seriously now, Dryanta, I meant to post some passages for you to check the wording of in your bible regarding the Mount/Plain thing, but I can't seem to find where I wrote them down . . . . I'll find it. :)

Tycho
04-30-2002, 02:10 AM
Whoops. That was a bad slip! Thanks for catching that.

By the way, it's late at the moment, but who in the heck is 'Ed Harris?' I did mean "Eric" but I just want to clarify it for my own INsanity, where I got that name from... LOL

Wow: I just noticed I am on my 1000th post! I am pleased to dedicate it to Jesus Christ! Happy Millennium! :D

Meanwhile, for this post I want to come back to all seriousness and step away from my sarcasm and "funnies" for a bit.

I understand WHY those who created religion say that Manson, Simpson, Klebold and Harris can all be forgiven.

It grows their religion and may offer the otherwise incorrigible the chance at rehabilitation.

-That's another convenient social control.

Let me tie that into Star Wars and Darth Vader.

"If once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

LUKE DID NOT BELIEVE THAT, as he appealed to the good in his father and helped save him.

As Vader, Anakin might have lost all hope, and slipped down the wrong road and just decided it was too late to turn back. Let's have fun again and rewrite ANH with a Jedi Anakin in command of the Devastator's boarding party.

STORMTROOPER: "The Death Star Plans are not in the main computer."

VADER: "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship, by People who had been Naughty. Could you be so kind as to help me find out what happened to the plans they sent you?"

ANTILLES: "We interceptated no transmissions. We're a counselor ship on a diplomatic mission."

VADER: "If this is a counselor ship, perhaps we can have some cookiees and milk with the ambassador?"

"Commander, prepare a snack tray, and invite all the passengers." [Uses a Force suggestion and sings:] "Everything's gonna be alright now."

But once he is committing terrible acts of violence and rage, he has no problem committing more of them and crushing the Tantive's capatian's larynx in one horrible cruching blow!

In other words, "If I'm already dammned, might as well make this life convenient, because if there is a Hell, the afterlife surely will get worse...."

But Religion can step in and act as one possible life-line to salvation. Luke Skywalker, or a son, acted in its place in ROTJ, and helped bring about Anakin's faith that he could return to the good in him and find salvation.

There was never any hope of that until after ANH when he discovered that he had a son to offer him that hope in the first place.

But for the masses who could find religion in prison, in drug-rehab, at the funeral time of their loved ones, etc., the idea that one can repent and be saved offers more of the populace a social control.

See, Damon Van Dam (the father) has a wife, a job, friends, a house and a job to keep him going. Take all that away from him, it might only be that his faith alone remains to keep him from killing David Westerfield for revenge for Damon's daughter. If someone did that to my child, I'd feel a lot of that rage in me! The whole thing depends upon the subjects personality, access to firearms, etc. But I noticed that Westerfield testifies behind bullet-proof glass.

But then you also have another aspect of religion: you have to pray that the little girl is in a better place. It's a harsher tragedy to think that there is nothing after you die. That the life she knew was only a more complicated animal's series of instincts and impulses, sensory experiences and consequences, and now there is nothing. If there is nothing at all, then she will not even know peace, unless you believe as I, that non-existence could be peace.

But my "Mandate to Rage"example is sure to be refuted by Dryanta and BigBarada as soon as they are able to respond to it. (though please do so anyway, guys). What I am getting at is how any excuse for social control is worked into religion, like it is logical (which it would be if the assumptions requiring faith were true facts in religion - or God's will we'll say to make things simpler). The Old Testament says an eye for an eye. Surely we don't mean to suggest that Mr. Van Dam should first rape and then kill Mr. Westerfield. But someone reading literally could read it that way. But (and I risk bringing up the whole homosexuality thing again) - the Bible (or God's will) also says sodomy is wrong - so how can Mr. Van Dam get equitable justice? Maybe Mrs. Van Dam should rape Mr. Westerfield and kill him. But isn't that the same kind of adultery that is not only forbidden by God, but is publically shaming that family for their lifestyle, along with their drugs?

So their is no earthly justice equitable to the crime under God's law, and it is possible for O.J. Simpson to help those get away with these kinds of things under man's law. So only Mr. Van Dam can exert his power, and his ammunition, to get anything close to justice in the event of the failing of our legal system (and if Mr. Westerfield is guilty). So FAITH is the only thing that might stop Mr. Van Dam, save for deterrants that man's law might work to prosecute HIM, were he to break his contract with the government.

Ah-ha. So the two, Man's Law and God's Law back one-another up. Without them, there could be chaos. What if Mr. Westerfield didn't commit the crime, but Mr. Van Dam killed him anyway? Wouldn't Mr. Westerfield's children want revenge and kill Mr. Van Dam in return? What about little Danielle's real killer then? Would he (or she) go unpunished because all parties responsible for defending her would be caught up in some kind of blood feud because of the unobjectivity of Mr. Van Dam's sense of justice? (rage before an impartial investigation)

But if the last thing left at the root of the cause is justice for Danielle, wouldn't that be the reunion of her family, her father and mother, with her in heaven? mmm-hmmm. So you have to believe or justice can never be done and vengeance WILL be found to be totally inadequate. A social control device is in place all because of and in the true name of God: He is HOPE.

2-1B
04-30-2002, 02:40 AM
Ed Harris, actor in such films as

Pollock
The Rock
Enemy at the Gates
Apollo 13
the Truman Show

and many others! :)

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 09:00 AM
Hey dar,
I'll try and respond to you first and come back to tycho in a bit.
No offense taken.
And for the record there are two here on these forums who I used to speak to often but they have no interest in that since I have posted my beliefs in this thread.There is also another possible ramification but that is pure speculation at this point.Ignorance is a two way street so to speak.
I really did want to hear more of your Jesus is an alien idea.Just got side tracked by other things here and didn't get back to it,sorry.
Here is some insight into it.I still very much want to hear your idea.I'm not trying to one up you here.Just doing this while it's in my head to avoid forgetting in the future.It's not a new idea,I really don't believe there is anything new under the sun.
In the book of Genesis one of the hebrew words written to descibe I think it was the earth or maybe the garden was never used again in the entire Bible.So then there was a spin off belief that Adam and Eve were aliens.That is still around today(SEE Mars theories :) )That idea has been used to say the Garden of eden didn't exist on the earth that we know.O.K.I don't belief it but some did and do.
Next on the list is again in the book of Genesis there is an event that was really the last straw for god in dealing with us,or should I say the world at the time.Genesis Chapter 6 Vs.1-7.
For those who won't look it up themselve here is what the account is.In a nutshell the Nephilum or "sons of God" saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and "came down" and took wives and had kids.Not normal kids mind you."giants" "mighty men of renown"Now this was the last straw for God.man was hopelessly poluted at this point,hence the flood.This is the evnt that sinched it for God.As a side note alot of people belief Goliath was a genetic reminder of this event.The genetics were carried through noah's sons wives.So the flood didn't destroy them completly because the passage also says"there were Giants on the earth in those days,and also afterward"There is also some thought that this might be a secondary reason for the Virgin birth of Jesus.Mary may have been "pure" of this DNA though Gods direct intervention in the lives and mates of her ancestors.Maybe that's where the Catholic faith gets the idea of "imaculate conception".?Can't say because the Bible makes no mention of anything like that.Any way if that were true it would put a major dent alone in the Jesus E.T. idea.But again it's not in the Bible.Just another idea I've heard.Still with me?
Now as a "literalist" This event did happen.As also my POV is that nothing in the Bible is mentioned just once,The Bible DOES clarify and explain passages.Except for this one.The Bible is plain that God never called any angle son.So they were not fallen angles or demons right?So at this point to be honst I have to lean towards no.Were they just men of high social standing?Maybe,but I'm not sure if I lean in that direction really.The term Sons of God is a phase that doesn't mean actual Son,but is a reference to something higher than man.But make no mistake they were evil in the site of God evil enough so that it needed to be brought under control in a harsh(?) way to stop mankind from being destroyed completely later by the repercussions of this"inter-breeding" Still here?
Now another Bible passage that has fed this idea is the first chapter of Ezekiel.Some belief that his vision was more visitation by a U.F.O. for lack of a better term.Read it for yourselves.It's too long for me to relate here.
Any way it could be read as not just a vision but as very good description of a air ship of somekind.And there are actual angels on it.Now we have possibly two references to two somethings that God saw fit to put in his word as a historical event(s).These were definately working for and worshipping God,where the first were evil.Read them for your selves.Now there is jump ahead to Jesus himself.When asked concering His second coming he Said"AS it was in the days of Noah,so shall it be at the end of the age"
So what was it like at the time of Noah?Read Genesis.
Now I find myself directed to ,among other things,To the stories we have all heard about Alien abduction and the inter breeding of humans and something else.Right?Is it real? no idea but I can't help but look at them in light in my firm belief in the soon second coming and finding more possible evidences in the Genesis account and these stories we've all been hearing.I'm no where near as blind or close minded as some would think.I follow and believe what the Bible says word for word.Does any of this rock the foundation of my faith,No.Why would it?
Any way,another jump to the book of Revelation.Two passages in particular.During the for told peroid of the tribulation(complete devastation on the earth just before the Physical return of Christ)
There is a war in the heavens spoken about.Visable from the earth for all that live to see.Now as a side note of explaination.The Bible uses the word Heaven or Heavens to mean three things.Heaven 1st the atmospere of the planet,the sky basically,2nd heaven or heavens is outer space.The 3rd heaven is Where God and his angles are.an interesting note?Satan is called the power of the air or prince of the air.O.K.
Now the reference in revelation is to the 2nd heaven,Space.Now is this a future war between alien races one on the side of God and one on the side of satan?could very well be.What that says to me is that if they are alien races that they both are fully aware of the God of the universe and his paln and will.Enough so that their history and path are running some what in line with each other.And ours..The second reference is to the City of God.Twelve gates of giant pearls acting as the gates to the city of Heaven.Each named after one of the apostles."Nations" will be in and out of the city.Nation is a refence here to Races.But at this point there are no humans left on the earth.Final destiantions have been decided.And we are also told of kindoms to be had depending on your actions on earth.What kingdoms?doesn't say.
Now as far as Jesus himself being an alien,In a real sense yes.He was not from here.He wasn't brought into this world like us.And he did ascend to heaven (the 3rd) after being here another forty days after the resurection.Now the Bible does not describe any kind of craft where it has before twice.And no white light.He just went straight up out of site.
Biblically Jesus' origin and destination are plain.He is God not a creation.Now is the next question,is he an alien that created the human race though genetics and decided to call himself God.Well if thats true disregard everything in this post.The bible is plain he is not created but has always been.He made it all.All that we know.If God was created then who made Him?Something from nothing?See the laws of thermodynamics.
I also heard once that there are seven "life forms" mentioned in the bible.5 as follows, God(the enitre trinity one God three persons)Angles,Demons,animals,and humans are easy to find.The other two maybe I just explained.Now if anyone thinks,Ah hah.He just gave us ammunition.Not really.None of this changes anything.
The things I've posted here are in the Bible.And I am after all a "literalist".So I DON"T take what I like or can explain easily and chuck the rest.Cowards way out.And I have no interest in trying to "hide" from anybody anything.If I did it wouldn't be exactly the informed descion that I want everyone to have the opportunity to make.I have said over and Over Jesus want's a personal relationship with each of us.And he gave us a WHOLE BIBLE.That is also why I don't consider my self religious.I refer to myself as christian for other's clarity not mine.The term was originally and insult and is now again.
So ,there it is.These are the reasons why there has been a an idea for very long time that Jesus was an E.T.
Problem is it doesn't take the whole Bible into account.If it did, it would go away.But if you don't believe it,don't believe any of it.
I beleif all of it as whole work and Revelation.Not just what I can use to my advantage.Or to fool myself or any one else.
So what do think Dar?If you get a chance to read them let me know.I know I didn't give every passage needed But I will if you'd like.
Again I'm not trying to steal you thunder so to speak,I just wanted to address you before I forgot again.
:)

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 09:22 AM
tycho I'll address what I can.
Who ever said the Old testament is out the window?I didn't and Jesus sure didn't!!"Not one dot or Jittle"That's what He said not me.So are we under the Law or does Grace give us a"License" to sin?So we can do what ever we want and have a last breath conversion?( read the Book of Romans for the Biblical POV on your questions.)Nope.That is not true faith.That's a fools game that you will lose.
I guess my question to you is if there is nothing wrong with anything we can do,then why do you seem to hold some kind of moral high ground over whalers?Enough so that you keep talking about killing them.If it's not wrong for you to kill them,it's not wrong for them to kill whales.So how can you adhere to that inconsistancy?Just curious.
If it's dangerous and some how ignorant to judge or comdemn some ones faith then what do you do with the old Inuite religious practices of Killing whales and seals?Kill them.Aren't you comdeming their beliefs to point of killing them?
You mentioned before you intended taking this thread seriously.Are you? or are you Baiting.Trying to get a rise and fluster the points.You have made comments about ALL of our wives and daughters.Could easily be taken as inflamitory to any one with a wife or daughters that reads this.No matter what they're beliefs are.Not to mention any wives and daughters that read this.Wonder how Insanejedigirl would feel about your comments?Have you?
I gotta say I have no Idea what you are trying to say.So I can't comment.If you take the time to read romans you'll get the answers you posed from POV.That's the best I can do.

2-1B
04-30-2002, 11:38 AM
I've always seen Revelation not as a look into the future, but rather as coded messages of hope written by John (or Cerinthus or whoever actually wrote it) to persecuted Christians living under Nero (sometimes interpreted as 666). :)

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 12:12 PM
Hey ceasar,The coded part is right.It was written in code to an extent so that the Romans delivering to the the seven churchs wouldn't have much of a clue what it said.It was written on Patmos by John.There is secular Roman documentation proving that.They're in the Vatican.Bosskman may be able to give more info on that.It's "code" is the same as the books of Ezekiel and Daniel to name just two.In those books the figureative and exact explaination is given side by side.Check it out.The Book of Daniel is also a prophetic book.Tells the same things as Revelation and also gives the explaination.Daniel is the future events from a Jewish POV,Revelation from the Christian POV same exact story.The book of Daniel is what the Magi(astromnomers) or Three wise men used to calculate the exact birth time of Christ.Daniels seventy weeks is an exact prophecy of the events that would happen to the Jews.It also gives the time when Christ would be born in Bethlehem.They were shown the "star" to follow and did for about two and half years.Also astronomers have proven that there was a "star' a very bright one that could be seen in that time.There are other ancient writings that also tell of this event.
Sorry for the tangent.Here's a huge surprise.I belief it is a telling of future events.;)
I posed the question before and I'd like to do it again.How many of you have really done any real study of the Bible?Or are your views based on things you "learned " in church?
The reason I ask is The term religious keeps coming up,directed towards me and others.I haven't stepped foot in a church in over two years.Pretty infrequent before that.So I guess what I was wondering is you have any other base from which to see me or people like me.I'm not religious.Not in the way I think it has been used here.Kinda like My views may very well be wearing the weight of religion's effect on not just you but the people you know and love.I find most religion does stray from the Bible.I've said alot of things here I'd bet you never heard in church.Why? Because like I said I belief the bible,period.If it's in there I have no problem discussing it for what it says,or some cases what some might think it says.
Here is an example that has driven me nuts about religion.The above mentioned wise men.What is the first thing that pops into your head?Come on Play along for a sec.I'd say either the manger or the gifts.Maybe the star or to some it was B.S.;)
Here's what gets me.They were NOT at the Manger!!They didn't present their gifts to Jesus until He was TWO YEARS OLD!!
It's a explained plain as day in the bible."religion has seen to fit them nicely into almost every nativity scene at Christmas.That is the best example I can give you of what I mean.So if you don't like people who just follow blindly.You should have no problem with,cause I don't.God gave his word,and gave me the brains to read it.Are you going to pick it up and just understand everything?He say's no.So I belief him. It takes time and study to get alot of it.Not just a few sermons and a casual read when you were twelve or what ever.
So please for me personally,Don't call me religious.I am a follower of Jesus Christ that's all.I don't add to the book and I don't take away.I hope you can see I've done that here.If nothing else.Now Dar what do think?The star of David.UFO mothership?
and Ceasar how about more of those contrdictions?
I'll be here,I really want everyone to know what they are dismissing.Some of you may already.Odds are some don't.Make a informed choice not just an easy one.
Thanks for letting me rant.Let's go

stillakid
04-30-2002, 02:03 PM
Boy, you leave for a day and it takes forever to get caught up. Anyway, I don't have anything in this post besides questions for you all.


Originally posted by Dryanta

The first five books of the bible were given to Moses on Mt.synai.I believe that because God himself is the only one who knows the story and it was him that had to be the one to tell it.

Interesting. So will you finally address the question that I put forth several hundred posts ago concerning why you won't believe that Joseph Smith was visited by God in the woods? What makes Moses' story any bit more credible than Smith's?


Originally posted by Dryanta
I follow and believe what the Bible says word for word.

Ah, good! I'm glad you said that. I've been looking for someone to answer these questions for me since day 1!


Originally posted by stillakid

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with any woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

And in regards to a post by Tycho, you wrote:


Originally posted by Dryanta
You mentioned before you intended taking this thread seriously.Are you? or are you Baiting.Trying to get a rise and fluster the points.You have made comments about ALL of our wives and daughters.Could easily be taken as inflamitory to any one with a wife or daughters that reads this.No matter what they're beliefs are.Not to mention any wives and daughters that read this.

As my questions have not been meant to be inferred as mere needling to coax a reaction, I don't believe that Tycho's are either. These are damn serious questions that clearly are uncomfortable for anyone to face and extra difficult for so-called Fundamentalist Literalists. Get angry at the questions if you want. Get even angrier at the messengers of those questions if you have to, but the questions will still remain.



Originally posted by Dryanta
I guess that's the real nerve you've touched on not that I might question my faith.I don't question my faith I just don't like it very much at times.

So why punish yourself? What "proof" do you have that your "faith" is so correct that you're willing to live with the "unpleasantries" of the religion...any religion? And so literally to boot. That's what I find to be irrational. From people who seem to have the wherewithal to think beyond the end of their noses, this desire to believe in something, whose fundamental lessons are for the greater good, yet with details that defy any sense of rational thought. You can still be a good person without having someone provide a rulebook for you. You can still believe that there is more out there (ie. an afterlife) without believing every single punctuation mark in the holy book of your choice.

Believing so devoutly in the authenticity of "God's Word," I'm certain that all the literalists present, and even the one's that have deserted, are familiar with every word in the Bible, including Mark 10:25. So, being that you all believe every word of the Bible as written, mind you no side interpretaions are allowed as they would open the gate for all kinds of random second-guessing, are we to believe that

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." ?

Biblical scholars like yourselves have undoubtedly encountered this discussion before. Of course, the writer(s) of this passage lived at a time of great peril. Large doors were built in the walls around their cities. In times of danger, the large doors would not be opened, but supplies could still be brought in by way of a smaller door built into the larger one: the eye of the needle. That's what the writer was getting at. However, by pure literalist definition, that's a pretty small camel to make it through the eye of a needle, for without one like that, no one will ever make it to the Kingdom of God. So what's more plausible? That we take a staunch literalist approach to this passage and take it's meaning to heart that no one will get to the Kingdom of God, or is there "wiggle room" for interpretation in one way or another? And if there is wiggle room here, why not in Genesis, or Exodus, or any of the others leading up to and including Revelation? What about the Mormon books? Why aren't they valid? "Christians" made room for a new prophet when the Jews thought they were deluding themselves. Now Mormons make room for a new prophet as other "Christians" think that the LDS are deluding themselves.

You see, you can believe anything you want when it comes to religion, but there is never any tangibly real reason for it. If it makes you feel better and that's what you need, then awesome. Congratulations, you found a way to peace without paying a therapist $50 bucks an hour. But that is my fundamental question: with so many inconsistencies present in such a literal belief of any religious doctrine, what makes an otherwise intelligent person do such a thing?:confused:

SithDroid
04-30-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
So why punish yourself? What "proof" do you have that your "faith" is so correct that you're willing to live with the "unpleasantries" of the religion...any religion? And so literally to boot. That's what I find to be irrational. From people who seem to have the wherewithal to think beyond the end of their noses, this desire to believe in something, whose fundamental lessons are for the greater good, yet with details that defy any sense of rational thought. You can still be a good person without having someone provide a rulebook for you. You can still believe that there is more out there (ie. an afterlife) without believing every single punctuation mark in the holy book of your choice.

I agree with you once again stillakid. There are many people in this world that live a good life. Do they not deserve to get in to heaven because they do not agree with everything that the bible teaches? Also if we are to assume that the Bible is indeed "God's word," then shouldn't the questions that Dr. Laura and stillakid posed contradict each other. The Bible says that it is ok to kill someone for certain things yet it also says that it is wrong to kill. How can both be true? It is either one or the other. And if God is indeed a "forgiving" God then why would smiting or stoning someone be allowed for that matter.

Also if God did indeed send the great flood to basically wipe out mankind so that we could start over again, then why hasn't he sent another flood, especially in this day and age with all the "sin" in the world? Surely that would be easier than trying to get people to commit to following a book that contradicts itself.

Also what about the aboriginal people of New Zealand and Australia? They are so isolated that Chrisitainity has never been introduced into their culture. Does that mean that they are automatically doomed in the end? The same goes for other religions, Muslim, Buddist, Daoism, etc... Who's to say that there is only one "true" religion? Are these people automatically condemned because they believe in something different?

I pose these questions with no real answer expected seeing as most of stillakids posts have gone unanswered as well.

JetsAndHeels
04-30-2002, 03:57 PM
Sithdroid,
I will try to answer your questions the best I can.
For your question about good people and if they can get into Heaven: Acts alone will not get a person to Heaven. You must repent of your sins and believe in Him in order to be saved. Sure you can be a good person and do good things, but that cant save you.
About the great flood:God decided to send the flood to start over.
Well He also sent the rainbow to show He would never do this again by the means of a flood. I believe this. But who is to say that God is not coming soon? Sure, sin is everywhere. People are committing evil acts. This is always happening. I truly believe it will not be long. Just because He does not send another flood does not mean He is not planning His return. The Bible says no one knows the day nor the hour. He will come like a thief in the night, so my advice is to be ready now.
And finally, about the people you mentioned in New Zealand and in other areas. Every year missionaries go out and try to teach the word to others in the world who have not heard of Jesus. Some areas are more remote or harder to reach. Whatever the reason, if people have not professed Christ as their saviour then they cannot be saved. I dont know all the grey areas here, and I am sure there are some, but that is what I know and I hope it helps answer some of your questions.

Dar' Argol
04-30-2002, 04:10 PM
Dryanta, I've gotta come back later tonight and re-read that post. Kinda had me confused, but later, when its a bit more quiet I'll check it again and let you know. I think, but I'm not sure, you mis-interpreted the post I left. let me check again.

stillakid
04-30-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by JangoFett96
Sithdroid,
I will try to answer your questions the best I can.
For your question about good people and if they can get into Heaven: Acts alone will not get a person to Heaven. You must repent of your sins and believe in Him in order to be saved. Sure you can be a good person and do good things, but that cant save you.
About the great flood:God decided to send the flood to start over.
Well He also sent the rainbow to show He would never do this again by the means of a flood. I believe this. But who is to say that God is not coming soon? Sure, sin is everywhere. People are committing evil acts. This is always happening. I truly believe it will not be long. Just because He does not send another flood does not mean He is not planning His return. The Bible says no one knows the day nor the hour. He will come like a thief in the night, so my advice is to be ready now.
And finally, about the people you mentioned in New Zealand and in other areas. Every year missionaries go out and try to teach the word to others in the world who have not heard of Jesus. Some areas are more remote or harder to reach. Whatever the reason, if people have not professed Christ as their saviour then they cannot be saved. I dont know all the grey areas here, and I am sure there are some, but that is what I know and I hope it helps answer some of your questions.


Wait just a second. I think that you've missed the point. We already know what you believe. The question of the day is WHY do you believe it? You admit that there are grey areas. This isn't the question for you to answer, but why would God hang some unfortunate souls out to dry just because of unfortunate geography? That's the biggest crock of sh*t I think I've ever heard. You're suggesting that just because somebody hasn't heard your "Good News" that they are damned to the firey pits of Hell. That's hardly fair for a just and kind and forgiving God. That's just the kind of silly notion that makes me question the paint by numbers literal interpretations of holier than thou religious folks. It makes no sense. Let me say it again. It makes no sense. The God I was taught to believe in wouldn't do such a *****y thing to people. (Unless you're Mormon, in which the Church graciously indoctrinates ALL of your dead relatives when you decide that LDS is the way to go. It's their way of dealing with that "grey area" of ignorance.)

So again, we know what you believe. Now, WHY do you believe it?

SithDroid
04-30-2002, 05:18 PM
My point exatly stillakid. I don't think that a forgiving God would alienate these people. This just goes to show that the only one true religion in many peoples eyes is "Christianity." If it is anything else, then you are damned. I don't buy this.

Also, I still see that no one is willing to tackle my question as to why the Bible says that it is alright to kill people for certain things and yet it also says that killing is wrong. I want a real answer from someone. If the Bible is indeed the "WORD OF GOD," and "GOD IS INFALABLE," then how do you expalin this. Someone please explain this to me. I'd like to hear the so called "reason" for this. Also I highly suggest that everyone sees the movie Dogma by Kevin Smith. It is a brilliant movie and brings up many issues that usually get ignored.

Also I am anxiously awaiting answers to Dr. Laura's questions.

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 05:30 PM
Hey Stillakid,
First let me say I agree ,it is hard to get caught up because of the content and number of posts.
as far as your question about Joeseph Smith.I guess I missed it sorry.
At the very end of the Bible it says this"For I testify to everyone who reads the words of the prophecy of this book:If anyone adds to these ,God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words,god shall take away his part from the book of life,from the holy city,and from the things which are written in this book."Now does that refer to Just the book of Revelation or the entire Bible.It's at the end for a reason.I believe the whole book.Even if it's only revelation that has been added to as well.
Now that's the difference between Joeseph Smith and Moses from POV.
There is also the strange points of the mis-spellings of the word of god.The man wore a hood over his head and transcibed the Book of morman one letter at a time.Now if God is giving him the letters,Why the mis-spellings?They are still printed and reprinted over and over.
My POV Take it how you will.:)
Now as far as the letter you posted in the begining of this thread,
It's really not fair to forget that I offered to answer them to the best of my ability.And I left it up to you.I may have mis read your reply but I took it as You didn't want ME to.Sorry,I'll do it now.:)
The first question doesn't make any sense really.
Lev.1:9 says this""but he shall wash it's entrails and it's legs with water.And the priest shall burn all on the altar as a burnt sacrifice,an offering made by fire,a sweet aroma to the Lord."
I guess I can't really answer a snide remark.
I can tell you my POV on it.No where in this middle of a sentence quoet does it say anything about neighbors being offended.Or how to handle that.Doesn't say anything like that in the whole Bible.Why?These sacrifices were performed outside of the camp.No one there to be bothered except for the priests involved.The only other place Sacrifice was allowed to be carried out by the Priests was in one or the other of the temples later built in Jerusalem.Kind of like coming here.If you don't want to see spoilers don't come here.
Same idea,You don't want to smell the burnt offering once a year don't live next to the temple.
As a Beliver in Jesus Christ the ultimate sacrifice has been made.No need for an animal to fill in any longer.
Slavery.
Do you know what the perspective of slavery was at the time?I know most of us eqate the term with our own American history.Not the same thing.
The slavery of the time was quite often voluntary.They would treat it in some cases as an appprenticship.They were free after six years after all.They were free to marry any one they chose ,had all the priviledge of the legal system.If they were abused the same exact thing would be done by the authorities to the "master"(SEE EYE FOR EYE TOOTH FOR TOOTH that's where this comes from).If a "slave" was diabled by someone they were free with all the privaledges that came with it.If someone were to kill a slave they were put to death. Did you know they were Heirs in some cases?How about in charge of any and all children,included in all family functions and religious ceremonies(not as Servants).
But there are also cases where they were captured in battle,bought,or even born into it.Anyone who kidnapped someone to be sold into slavery was to be put to death.The same exact priviledge and rights were afforded them as any other.They were almost always trusted advisers to others,Having duties that at times some one wouldn't trust their own sons to do for them.It was also sometimes as debt repayment and sadly even they were given as gifts.
With that said, on to the selling his daughter comment.Slavery in this verse is not the same as described above.It's a reference to an arranged marriage that was also very common place.The "payment" described is where the dowery came from.
Question three is just plain stupid.If this person is going to try and and make a real arguement of his points he needs to read what he commenting on.If the bible says that about uncleanliness,does it not also say no sex before marriage?
So why is such a pias individual such as he asking multiple women?How many of you with wives or girl friend have ever found that she's had a problem telling you NOT NOW for this reason.IMO not very well thought out question.And the reason for this particular law is because the risk of infection was incredibly high for both man and woman because personal hygene wasn't what it is now.
Question four I think I've already covered.But I do want to give more specific answer to the foreigner issue.I can't comment on what his "FRIEND" thinks,sorry.As far as foreigners.In the Biblical POV if a "pagan" foreigner was brought into a hebrew home He was under the same covenent with God as the Hebrew family was.Another reason why entering into bondage was at the time sometimes voluntary.They wanted that relationship with God and would be "adopted Jews"I mentioned more on the Biblical POV of slavery in previous post.
question five.Sabbath work.Should he be put to death? are you morally obligated to kill him your self.In the eyes of God aLL sin deserves Death.He draws no distinction.That's why Jesus died.Animals were used as proxy until the time of Christ.Sin BTW is anything he told us not to do.Or not doing something he told to.Disobedience in a nut shell.Jesus mentioned this quite a lot."Let he without sin cast the first stone" in other words forgiveness is the Key,the real high road,not the easy way of just getting people out of your way.Something the Jews of the day had lost track of.So the question isn't are you morally obligated,but rather are you morally able?
question of degree's of abominations.See above God draws no distinctions, we do.ALL sin is is an abomination to Him.
The defect question.Let me elobarate to a few other things that are forbiden from approaching the altar,Veil,or from offering the bread on the altar.Blind,Lame,Marred face(me) or any limb too long,Broken feet or hand,Hunchbacks,dwarfs,defect of the eye,eczema,scab,or is a eunich.Here's a few others that are not mentioned in this passage.No women or any one other than a Levite(one from the tribe of Levi) Only Levites were alowed to be temple priests.I can't answer.I'm not god.I didn't say it He did.
If I were to venture a guess it would be to foreshadow the character of Christ.Spotless.with out blemish.All sort of people came directly to God for healing and got them.So is God some kind of bigot to certain people he created? no.The temple and actually approaching God are two different things.So the answer is sorry no wiggle room. His altar His rules.
The hair cut question.The verse isn't speaking about cutting your hair it's talking about shaveing the sides of your head and disfiguring the edges of your beard.Probably refering to pagan custom of the time.The idea of being noticably set apart from others.As a sign of being hebrew.So they don't have any worries.Unless they are Jewish Punk rocker or something.
:)
dead pigs.He said they are unclean for the hebrews.So if you are a Jew and still have a football made out of a pigs bladder. I'd recomend throwing it out and going to Walmart and get a much newer football
Ok multi part answer.The term two different crops doesn't apply what it says is "Mixed seed"The passage also tells not to let livestock inter breed BTW.Polyester isn't a natural thread like the mentioned "linen and Wool";) I can't answer this part.I honestly don't know why.
Everybody getting together and stoning him for Blasphemy.It's not accuarte to lump the field and garment thing with the stoning.The bible does not say they needed to be stoned for that.Nice try though.Blasphemy is one of the "Big Ten" and again falls into the catagory of " the wages of sin is death"
Because of the fact that the savior of countless millions was to come from the Jews,it was of the utmost importance to keep them as jews and not allow them to be swayed by every other culture that was aound at the time.If you were to sin in a way that was blatently public then He said they were to die in the same way,to deter any one who had seen or heard the offense from doing the same.
Now I am not now or was I then angry about tycho's post.Just asking a question.And I have to disagree it's not difficult to face these questions for me Certainly not extra.All I am doing is being honest with my attempts at answering these things.If you think for a second that I'm afraid you'll shatter my faith or even get me to question it .You're giving yourself to much credit I'm afraid.And I have to say it seems to me anyway that there has been more anger pointed at me than any I might have shown to you.And that's is the problem with impersonal nature of this.To much room for assumption on peoples tone and mood.I know I'm guilty of mis reading you all at some point.
Punish Myself?Have you ever had a job that really sucked?Did you stay?Punishing your self?Same thing.My faith is unescapeable.hardly punishment.That's is my point about man made.Why would anybody follow a faith that goes against everything that comes naturally to us?They wouldn't unless it was real?And as Literaly as I do,becasue,again it's real.And I have made an attempt to give you proof from my own experience.And that's not good enough for you.And that's O.K.I don't take it personally.It's your choice to believe what ever you want.And you are right it does seem irrational to some one who does not understand it.No big deal.You think you're the first to be convinced I'm an Idiot and any body else like me?Not even close.Be a good person? that is another difference in our POVs.Alot of people believe that we are all good people that do bad things.I believe the opposite.We are all bad people that sometimes do good things.And you can believe what ever you want.Again God affords you this RIGHT.And so do I.The camel and needle.Actually no.I have never heard any discussion about this verse being a challenge to literal interpretation.It's a common figure of speech of the time.Like "Pot calling the Kettle Black" or"more fun then a barrel of Monkeys" or "cool" "Radical" "fly"
It was also made in response to a rich young man that came to Jesus saying he had keep all the aws of God.And wanting to know what else to do to follow him.Jesus said sell all you have and give it to the poor.and follow me.He gets sad and walks off.Proving he was full of it.He just broke a pile a commandents by his arrogance and refusal to do what God told him Too.Money meant way to much to him.And it does to most rich people.That's what the comment is about.Just a figure of speech.The wiggle room thing is a mute point.But the answer is no IMO.Christians of real faith never made room for any other prophet.Jesus is God.Not a prophet.If god says this is the final revelation than it is.And the jew,did not make room for Jesus either.Some belived most did not.
And thanks for otherwise intelligent person compliment.:)
Hey my beliefs that's all.you asked.;)

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 05:36 PM
sorry sith droid I was writing the above epic when you posted.
God is the giver of life.And because of that it is his to decide when and why it ends.If God tells you to kill it's not the same as just doing it for your own reasons.You are no one to judge who should and should not die, He is.I know it probably doesn't help but I didn't want you to go answered.And I did see Dogma because I felt I needed to.Hey here's major surprise for you.I hated it.I like Kevin Smith especialy in comics.But IMO this movie was crap.

SithDroid
04-30-2002, 05:58 PM
Sorry that answer just about who he decides lives and dies just doesn't hold up. Why would God contradict himself? I never said I decided who lives and dies so I don't know how you interpreted that, all I said was that the Bible states that killing is worng and yet in other parts it says that killing is justifiable. It has to be one or the other. There is no leighway here.

The point Dr. Laura was trying to make with slavery is that if anyone were to have a "slave" in todays society they would most likely be arrested or sent away to prison, yet if the Bible tells us that this is alright, then why should we? One could argue that we are only following the word of God (Bible). That's the whole point of that.

As far as your comment on the whole vision thing, so basically youa retrying to say that only the "pure" get into "heaven." Well then if none of us that have imperfections can even be allowed to approach God, then why bother beleiveing in a religion at all? If something like this is going to stop someone like you Dryanta, as you said that you have facial imperfections, then why keep on believeing if you know that you are going to be denied in the "afterlife." Make me understand your stance on this.

By the way, I knew you probably didn't like Dogma.

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 06:08 PM
Man I missed two by sithdroid sorry and to you Stillakid.
The bible is plain and I hate to repeat myself.That all will be judged according to what they know.Period.No grey area .There have been millions of people who did not hear the gospel.God is fair and just.He said He wrote his word on all our hearts.they'll be judgeed faily based upon what they did with that in their lives.BigB did answer this question already.

Why do I believe what I believe.Because I'm a weak minded, insecure person who needs the crutch of man made, god in a can ,irational ,illogical,unprovable,nice tidy bow,ignorrant ,intollerant,holier than thou,belief.and I also seek punishment to boot.
Now I have tried to explain why I believe what I believe with my own personal experience.Disregarded completely because it's not Physical.Nope it's not.But it's true.I have addressed everthing as best I could.The above is the response.So I assumed because that is what you said that's what you wanted to hear.I mean zero offense by this.Belief it or not.If some one becomes truely challenged or threatened these are the kind of words any of would expect.I give you my word.I have not once in this thread lost my temper.If I had I wouldn't be hear.I've been warned about it a couple of times already.NOt perfect,not holier than thou,
I place myself here,right now to freely take anything you want to throw at me.And after ward I'll still be hear.Because I'm here not for me,or God, but you and anyone else who may be reading this.If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry.Take your own good advice and don't kill the messenger.You want proof that is based on a book you have real regard for and is a personal faith.My word is not good enough.Out of all fairness if you're both half as convinced as I think you are about me being big mental case or idiot I don't blame you I guess for not taking my word for it..
And hey it's O.K.I can't say it enough you believe what you want.In all reality i gave up on trying to change anybodys mind a long long time ago.Now All I'm doing is standing my ground.I won't bend or sway.So if you'd like to continue with intelligent questions in calm manor then lets.If not .Please consider leaving it open for others.I agree with you on this point stillakid.These are important questions.And very serious questions too.Let's not get it shut down. Sorry again sith droid you posted when I was writing again.Sorry it doesn't cut it for you.If you take the time to read what the Bible has to say, instead of jumping to conclusions, about Killing you'd have the whole picture.There is no contrdiction If you kill out of personal anger,jealousy,ar blind hate, or to gain what belongs to someone else then it is wrong.If you kill in war or defending your self or others it's not wrong.And the passage about defects wan't talking about heaven or getting in.It was talking about the holy of holies in the temple where the ark of the covenent was kept.

Did it again forgot to reply to your question about slavery.If you also follwed all the other statutes regarding slavery.and the person you "owned" wasn't kid napped from any where.Then yes if you would like to follow leivitic law then yes you can own a slave.But also be prepared to obey ALL of the leivtic rules for society and life and faith and the world as whole.Or you could Get out from under the law and get under grace.Believe it or not you still have the choice.One is futility one is a sure bet.You choose.
Come on guys please calm down and read what being posted.This thread is in real danger if this gets worse.Please.

Tycho
04-30-2002, 06:23 PM
Well put, Stillakid.

But 'still' I have some catching up to do.

I can already answer a question for the literalists: If all of God's people spread out from Mesopotamia, then everyone's ancestors should have kept the word of God alive in all their descendants, thus the Aboriginiees et all should have some version of this religion in their culture as well.

However, we know that's not the case. They may worship multiple gods of the animals, fire, rain, fertility, etc. So were their ancestors negligent? Maybe.

But Christ came a long time after the Flood and people had already spread out. The New World hadn't even been discovered by Westerners (or descendants of the Roman Empire's citizens) so it would be a whole millennia's time before those building the ancient civilizations of the Incas, the Aztecs, the Apache, the Cherokee, etc. all got the opportunity to hear about Christ's new contract with God. Are all those who died from 30 B.C. until 1492 denied the opportunity to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Were the Souix that "evil?" I tend to think the Native Americans were far more honorable than most of the white settlers that came to this land to exploit it years later. Even the missionaries sought power in their 'holy quest' to bring the word of God to the 'heathens.'

So then the Aboriginees of today and undiscovered peoples of South America's jungles etc. are still denied entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven because they don't know to accept Jesus as their savior. I see...

Meanwhile, I don't accept Jesus on pure faith because it's what Cardinal Hard-one tells me I should do. He has a reason for wanting me on that altar, or so it seems apparent these days...

So I am that different from the Aboriginees because I distrust contact with elements of Western Civilization?

Or am I worse, because I am a white, male, American who distrusts these elements of our society?

I see. I'm going to Hell for sure now....:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, I have some other points I need to address....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to all this talk I gave of killing and adultery, incest, fornication etc. - that's first because I was illustrating examples of breaking the 10 Commandments, and s_ex and acts of violence are both the most tempting and furthest implicating sins we can discuss. I suppose to an over-eater, gluttony is as tempting as coupon-day for Sara Lee, but if someone stuffs themselves until they explode, it creates only a mess for the next person to find them, rather than for all of us. We are not all capable of that kind of food consumption. The other sins, like jealousy, are transitional states that can stem from s_exual urgencies, etc, and go through jealousy and mutate into anger, anger into hate, and hate into the suffering from the violence that can so often come with it. Yoda doesn't lie (at least that we know about).

But there is great anger in me. Due to frustrations with everything from s_exual relationships to society and the shamefully slow progress we make as a species. I have to battle down the animal instincts in me that want to kill. I am so capable of it. I glorify violence in Star Wars. I wonder what it would have felt like to kill Greedo? A gun is such a weak weapon to explore violence. The lightsaber is as well. Take a sec to look at Star Trek's Klingons who prefer stabbling blades. You can feel the blood of your victim wash over your hand. You can keep its stain on your sensory member you used to reach out and touch your creation of death. You can feel the blade's contact with both soft tissue and bone. And you can be close enough to your opponent that you could experience their violent reaction to you; their desperation to save their own life. Death and the mystery surrounding it can be a great motivator in itself to kill. My ultimate violent fantasy would be to fight to my own death, hand to hand, utilizing all my martial arts training, and purge myself of this anger, this pent up frustration and need to exclaim the rage I feel against the limitations of my being, and expunge it in one bloody purge against the insult that life can offer in its slow, methodological approach to learning and sensory experience.

But alas, while I hold the concept of dying on one's feet in a life-to-death struggle with a worthy opponent (that could defend itself - be it man, going hand to claw with a lion, or bludgeon to tooth with a great white shark, I also hold the concepts of acting honorably with high regard. I will not kill the defenseless, the less-guilty, etc. I used whalers as a generalization as I don't know any, so I have no targets in mind, but I find their act deplorable and it could incite me to target them. The cause of saving the whales respects life and seems just. Actually killing the whalers would most likely not be. Nor would it be honorable. If you want to fight whalers honorably, torpedo their ships and provide them all with life-boats and a tow back home. I also used whalers as an example of a place where I could find remote victims to kill, and possibly escape man's justice. Were I David Westerfield and no one saw me abduct Danielle Van Dam, someone still would see my driving on commonly used highways and roads. At sea, the example was more exception-proof for just the sake of saying I could get away with this.

But I am capable. So I fear not hijackings, being car jacked, in a bank when it is being robbed, or even at a SWAT team shootout where the police are outgunned. I think I said I wasn't acceptable for military service because of a surgery from when I was 11 years old, but it is natural for one with a militant psyche to seek out action and combat where one can find it.

However, in martial arts I was trained to a code that addresses even the above circumstances. If someone is robbing you, car jacking you, etc. - and they are not likely threatening your life if they get your wallet, keys, etc. (whatever they are after), they are desperate and need your help and pity - not your vengeance for the ills you perceive you've suffered in life. The ills they suffer are far worse to put them in that situation. But yes I would fight them. I've even studied un-armed gun defense (which only works if someone holding a gun on you is stupid enough to get that close to you, or is uncommitted to firing in the first place). I can disarm these people in combat, but I am bound by my training to not injure them or hurt them severely, or at least fatally if I can at all help it. This would include the circumstance of being on a hijacked 9 / 11 plane. With knives and box-cutters, I would disarm them one-by-one. If I led by example, others should help, as they did on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Sure, it didn't exactly work out perfectly in the end, but they died with honor - and it might have worked, so they had to try.

Meanwhile, onto s_ex, and any perceived offense a girl on these message boards might take from my comments. Well, there's going to be more offense and no appologies...

I don't hide what I'm interested in. Women want that anyway. They are suspicious of men who act funny, who aren't forthcoming and appear to have hidden agendas. Meanwhile, women simply want (or do not want) the real man, who does not appologize for being one. He is the honest man. And women lie. The preacher never knows what his daughter is doing. Neither will her boyfriend or her husband. And the nature of Christianity is that she can repent and confess everything from Friday night on Sunday morning. Why not? The "virgin" Mary did it. The nature of our species is to enjoy the pleasures of s_ex. Otherwise, why would it be possible to enjoy that? For women as well as men? Ah...God designed us, right? And the cli_toris is needed for reproduction exactly how??? To me it's needed only for a lot of fun after 'daddy's gone to sleep' - namely because he's forgotten about that. (and why older men lose interest in their wives is a whole 'nother issue). But go to a pet store and watch the hamsters for a little while. I'm sure not even the mother knows which one is the father. Now watch Jerry Springer. It's the same thing. He's tried hamsters - they just can't talk. But his guests are barely more sophisticated. There's evidence of evolution if I ever saw it (joke).

Speaking of which, did you know that a human male and a human female share 96% percent of the exact same DNA structure?

Now a human female and a chimpanzee female share 98% of the same DNA.

I read some scientific papers that studied cell cominations and came to the conclusion that humans and chimpanzees could interbreed. The result would be a sterile offspring who could learn to drive a car but never out-survive their body hair problem. (Joke aside, it is true. Our DNA is compatable for one sterile offspring). Tarzan was inspired by myth or an allegory meant to shed light on a taboo reality?

But when it comes back to s_ex, males and females (the human kind for this discussion), what angers me is the perceived equality we now are supposed to enjoy. Males will always be disadvantaged, hence the millennia of religious doctrines meant to keep women in their place, not s_exually promiscuous. It is easier for them to mate with as many males as they desire in one day, than it is for us. Just attend San Diego State University one semester and you can witness this in action. :rolleyes:

Again, frustration leads to jealousy, jealousy to anger, anger to hatred, hatred to violence. S_exual social controls become necessary to enforce the contract with government and man's laws, because they fight the state of nature. Further than that, they undermine population control. The male Lion kills or maims a competing male and then murders any offspring of the former females' mates. I do use the term plural because double-gender polygamy cases apply here. David Westerfield and the swinging wife-sharing life-style of the Van Dams comes to mind. As does equating the male position in the battle of the s_exes. In this case, perhaps the heterose_xual 'pe_dophile' is lashing out against the perceived challenges and defeats put on him by females "of his own pride" who cause the psychological territory damage we normally associate with a competing male.

The actual biological roots of racism come under the exact same foundation and cause-construction.

But this was a lot to digest and I'm not sure I've been clear. So I'll take a break and wait for your questions.

JesusFreak
04-30-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I feel much the same way you do, Dar'Argol.

In fact it bothers me how the rules of the Old Testament were conveniently thrown out by Jesus, so that all one has to do is love him and accept him so their own sins may be forgiven.

That is convenient. Charles Manson can repent and get into heaven if he calls to Christ and the Lord and they answer him.

But it's more convenient for me. You see, now if there is a God and I want to murder whalers, rape their daughters before I take their "treasures" and sink their ships, I can do this with no fear of punishment from the law (as I have this fool-proof plan I worked out with David Westerfield and Dylan Klebold, Ed Harris et. all before they killed themselves) and then I can enjoy my time - all the while listening to Satanic Rock while I pillage and plunder like a true pirate of the high seas (all in the name of my Crusade for Dolphin-Safe Tuna) and then all I gotta do is accept Christ and I will get into Heaven.

This is great news! If you excuse me, I have to call O.J. Simpson!
I don't know if anyone has said anything about this or not because page 17 has been blocked by this web blocker my dad installed so I can't read it. Anyways heres what I have to say...

Let's say someone does all those things you mentioned then asks God for forgiveness, is he forgiven? Only if he's truly sorry. IMO there are two kind of sorrow's, worldy sorrow (sorry that you got in trouble), and godly sorrow (sorry that you did it because its wrong). Basically I'm just tryin to say that you can't just say "sorry" without meaning it and be forgiven, you have to say it out of the sorrow of your heart. If you do commit all those sins and are truly sorry and confess it then you will be forgiven and you won't want to do that again. You're talking about being sorry because you're gonna go to hell if you don't say you're sorry.

I know I don't know how to talk right, and I kept repeating myself, but you get the point. (well at least I know why Paul had someone to write the letters to the churches for him, lol) I hope I didn't offend anyone with this but it's the truth. Jesus is real, he is everything he says he is, and he did everything he said he'd do, and he is God almighty.

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 07:19 PM
hey Jesusfreak.You trouble maker.:) hang on everyone will be here in a sec.You're the man of the hour:)

bigbarada
04-30-2002, 07:41 PM
Sithdroid, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," is actually slightly misinterpreted. The actual Hebrew translation refers to what we would consider "premeditated murder." There is a difference between murder and killing. Killing usually is done in self defense or one the battlefield (which is a form of self defense; because if you don't act, you will be killed). Murder is killing someone who is not threatening your life of the life of those around you. It is actually planning to take and taking the life of someone around you for petty reasons of rage, greed, jealousy, pleasure, revenge, etc.

BTW, we already answered all the Dr. Laura questions, read a little closer and try to have an open mind, instead of just coming to the rash conclusion that we don't know what we're talking about. I can see that you already have us classified, Sithdroid. You think us to be ignorant, sheltered morons and you only ask questions to try and trip us up, not because you want any real answers. It's a game that I am sick of playing and I am definitely sick of repeating myself answering the same inane questions over and over. If you have no intention of actually considering our point of view then you should probably not contribute to the discussion.

JesusFreak, excellent point. God knows when you are lying, better than you do. If you commit a crime then cry out "I'm sorry, forgive me!" It's no good. You have to actually be truly sorry for commiting the sin for God to forgive you. It's not a free ticket into heaven with just a few words spoken, it's a real longing to be cleansed of all your sins and have a relationship with God.

Tycho
04-30-2002, 07:44 PM
JesusFreak, I hope you can join us on page 17 now. I think it could have been an internet malfunction, not a parental block (I hope). An anotomical reference was made by me, so that could be it though. I will correct that term. Silly to bar knowledge of that though - by any parent who can appreciate how he became a parent, IMO.

At least if one doesn't learn some things, divorce won't teach them...

Anyway, hope you're back with us. And I'm just slightly curious if my edit will fix the problem. Go back to my previous post and you will be able to discern my edit. But if you choose to discuss it, note how it might have to be typed to keep simple biological knowledge - not moral issues - involved in the body of knowledge we are amassing by our discussion...

Pathetic :rolleyes: