PDA

View Full Version : Hasbor helps/ promotes scalping



sith pedagog
04-28-2002, 06:20 PM
Hasbro has set the collectors up for a fall again with the Jorg Sacul figure! They did it at ToyFair giving away rare Darth Vader figure to people who may or may not be Star Wars fans. They knew exactly what was going to happen to those figures. And here they are again at C-II. In fact I have heard that Mail Boxes Etc. will have stations there so that people can mail their figures and other collectibles as soon as they buy them. Why would they even have that except to help the scalpers? After all, the figures have been going for $100-$150 each on Ebay. It would be nothing for a guy and his "buddy" to visit the event each day for the days and walk out with 12 figures. $1200 or more, easily making up for any ticket or other costs. I don't like scalpers, but they are just the middle men in the whole deal. Lets look at Hasbro for some answers. I'm going to start a new post with this, in the hope (however tiny it may be) that I can get a lot of people to agree with me and maybe Hasbro too.

sith pedagog
04-28-2002, 06:20 PM
HASBRO I MEAN -sorry

corporal AMF
04-28-2002, 06:45 PM
I live in southamerica, and my only way is to go to ebay or pray that an online store would manage to find one , and sell it at a decent price:frus: :frus: :frus:
This things make me want to give up collecting.......:mad:
so I prefer to collect the basic and when i can, and my wallet helps I get these strange things...:( :(

RooJay
04-29-2002, 08:11 PM
I'm with you guys! I'm starting to get a little upset at the fact that, even though many of us have been dying for a Lucas figure for years that only those of us who can afford to go to SW Celebration will be rewarded with them!

Jedi_Rainman
04-29-2002, 09:52 PM
I totally hate scalpers. I haven't ever done it with Star Wars toys, but I did put 2 Xbox consoles on layaway the day they released the system and 2 days later, I sold one for $500. It was all good and well b/c I not only got my Xbox free, but the Gamecube also. I am getting 2 Jorg Sacul figures. 2 of my friends from college are going and I gave the one $20 just so that I wouldn't have to pay $100 or more for one. I'll have 2. One for my collection and the other, not sure yet. Maybe a trade for a trade of something rare. How bout a Toy Fair Vader for the other one. Seems fair to me and thats not scalping, its trading.

Beast
04-29-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Jedi_Rainman
I totally hate scalpers. I haven't ever done it with Star Wars toys, but I did put 2 Xbox consoles on layaway the day they released the system and 2 days later, I sold one for $500. It was all good and well b/c I not only got my Xbox free, but the Gamecube also.
GAH! Dude, this is not an attack against you, but that is a case of scalping also. You purchased a game system which was a hot property and hard to come by at the time, and then turned around and sold it at a profit to someone that couldn't find one at retail. I think most people would agree on that. :(

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

CooLJoE
04-29-2002, 10:19 PM
I did that with PS2s when they came out. My first PS2 stayed with me. Sold one the 2nd one (a pre-order) for $600 on ebay (well started at 300 and ended at about $600). I offered that preorder PS2 to my friend's parents for my friend for xmas (only charging them the $300 it costs) and they never took the offer, so I put it on eBay. I ended up buying a 3rd and giving it to a friend for the same price i paid.

But I count consoles far different from these figures. Consoles can and will be always available for the next 4-5 years (til the new ones come out. and even then they will still be available). The figures like these won't necessarily be around very long. And even worse, the Jorg Secul and Toy Fair Vader won't be around long at all. And those that are around are available at C2 or ebay (only ebay for vader, though he was available to starwars fan club for a short time).

So really I hate the people scalping the C2 and toy fair figures since I wasn't able to go to either show. Hopefully the Jorg Sacul ends up on the starwars fan club store for a short time so we have a chance.

RooJay
04-30-2002, 03:41 AM
Right on JJB! No offense Jedi_Rainman, but how can you hate scalpers when you admit to having been one at that point?

humsup
04-30-2002, 04:29 AM
IMO, its sometimes necessary to have some figs as exclusives or give aways at special events as I believe there are people who are true collectors. These pieces becomes the hilites of their collections when acquired. When I mentioned "acquired", I mean one truly are there at the event and received one for the effort of making his/her way there and not by forking out big money to scalpers to obtain them afterwards... defeat the purpose.

Wolfwood319
04-30-2002, 04:41 AM
As far as the upcoming "Jorg Sacul" figure is concerned, I say; "Let the chips fall where they may." This isn't a figure that was available at a corporate show, or then available on the fan club store for a limited time where scalpers can just grab as many as they can and then sell them on ebay. This figure was made for those going to C2. I don't think people are going to C2 just for the figure, they're going because they want to go for the fun of it. Everyone has the general opportunity to go to C2, its not like Toy Fair. This exclusive figure is in fact a reward for those fans going to C2. Sure there are bound to be scalpers that get these and them sell them for hundreds, but the majority of people going to C2 are fans.

Hasbro is doing this for the fans, believe it or not. Hasbro doesn't see any of the money generated on the secondary market. However, they knew that FANS have wanted a Lucas figure for some time. They knew that they couldn't just release this figure in the regular line, too. They wanted to make it something special, so they made it an exclusive to the largest FAN convention of the year.

icatch9
04-30-2002, 09:43 AM
Great points Wolfwood! Everyone can go to the C II. I don't think that they there is even a limited number of tickets. I am afraid of the long wait in line, but I suppose it will be worth it. There will be a millions of these on ebay that weekend and the following week. The high price will wear off. Still no figure should go for less than $25.00. Think about it. A ticket price is $30 and GL figure costs $10. So in order to get two figures you have to spend $50.00. Thus, at least $25.00 a figure. I bet they go for way more than that.

mrmiller
04-30-2002, 11:14 AM
I must say- I do not like scalpers. I also picked up an extra PS2 on the day they came out, and sold it to a friend of mine the next day for what I paid for it. I also picked up 2 Dookus the other day, and GAVE one to a good friend of mine who is a collector. (It's always nice to help out fellow collectors- they may repay you some day). That being said- I still like exclusives.

I like having Rare figures to collect. But I don't like them so rare that only the wealthy can afford them. I'd like to see theses "exclusives" be rare enough that not everyone can have them, but still enough avaliable where everyone who wants one can. Not liek figures that might be future peg warmes anyone can pick up at close out for $1.99. Maybe produce enough to drive the market down to $50 or less. Then it's nice to have something to look for in the future, or something that will remain collectable.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it's nice to have an actual collectable figure every once in a while. I'm like a lot of collectors, who really don't ever plan on getting rid of any of their figures. That's why I open just about every one I get. But I still like more collectable figures to display as a sort of "Holy Grail" of my collectin.

Maybe I'm just bored now that I've picked up one of all the new figures. I'm finding myself wanting to go to Wal-Mart or TRU and sort through all the SW figs, and then realizing- What for? I got them all. Not that my wallet is ready for a new shipment or anything. I was just so pumped about looking for the new figs, just to get them all in 2 days. Oh well, I guess I'm the lucky one. Maybe I should go looking for Dookus so I can scalp them to buy a Jorg ;) .

Dryanta
04-30-2002, 11:29 AM
Sorry Rain man I gotta agree it is the same thing.At the same time I have to admit there is a good point to made in Future availibility differences between a game system and SW figs.
But it doesn't change the fact it's the same thing.
And I'm having the same problem.all the hype for monthes for the new stuff and It's all over in 15 minutes.Sigh.Coming down is a terrible thing

mrmiller
04-30-2002, 12:15 PM
I guess Dryanta, we can still be psyched about seeing the movie. Then after that it's on to some heavy drink'n as my depression sits in on having to wait until Episode 3.

=MATT=

Rocket X
04-30-2002, 02:16 PM
Are we really that pumped up over the "Jorg Sacul" figure? I was kind of disappointed first that it was announce ahead of time (I wish it was a secret until the show) and second that it is a wierd Lucas sculpt in a pilot uniform!? Why? Just remember, with exclusives they can be remade at any time and sold to the general public. Remember the Kellogs Han Solo Stormtrooper? He was put into a cinema scene with a slightly diffrent pose. Playmates did it with the 1701 Star Trek exclusive set, Wizard has threatened to do it with the Simpsons exclusives. If you dont get Jorg now there is always that outside chance that Hasbro desides to make some easy cash and release a special set of the exclusive figs.

pthfnder89
04-30-2002, 03:14 PM
I'm just not that interested. I'd certainly get one if I could, but the figure itself really doesn't interest me enough to make me hunt it down. Anyone who wants it bad anough to pay $100 or more is welcome to it.:)

mrmiller
04-30-2002, 03:31 PM
I was actually talking about being all pumped up for April 23rd's midnight madness, or figure scavenger hunt. Now it's over and I have nothing else to look forwad to until the new assortmants arive, which will not have the fanfare as the 23rd's release. We still have the movies release to build excitment up for- hopefully it will not be a let down like... ahem, well you get the idea.

=MATT=

Sidiously Darth
04-30-2002, 08:39 PM
I'd like to correct a few misconception that I've read throughout some of the posts in this thread.

Not everyone that is a fan/collector can or has the opportunity to go to this event. Some can't afford to go or can't go b/c of their job. I use myself as an example of the job situation. I work for a local tv station. May falls into one of the ratings periods or what they like to call Sweeps. No one gets to take vacation or extended time off. I'm not complaining, just trying to point out that not everyone has the same opportunity to go.

Also, we can't forget getting to the event. If you live close by, it may only cost you $50 + gas. But if you have to fly plus get a room and transportation, $50 just isn't going to cut it.

BTW, I do not want one of the figures. I would much rather be at the event so I could experience all the other activities.

Cubehead
04-30-2002, 08:41 PM
Now this comment does not apply to me, as I am attending the convention and I will be getting one of these figs for myself.
(and a couple of lucky friends)

However, I have some close friends who are infuriated by the C2 exclusive figure. One of which just spent $500+ on april 23.
He has also bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of SW products and has been a collector for many years. However this year he has missed out on the Toy Fare Vader and now is going to miss out on the C2 exclusive figure. Because of this he is seriously considering getting out of the hobby for good. His position is a bit extreme, but I understand his point. After all his years of loyalty and frustration he is now getting scre#wed royally twice in one year. He is not the only person I know who feels this way either. Hasbro seems hostile towards the very collectors who are their 'bread and butter.' They always find a new way to frustrate us. And let me just say if your one of these
"it's for the kids" people, than you are sadly deceived! Adult collectors make up more than 75% of the SW market. Plus we buy a disproportionate amount of product. No ten year old blows half a grand in one night. Alienating collectors with this figure is not a wise thing to do. Well, I've always thougt Hasbro is run by a bunch of idiots anyways. Maybe we could shave some monkeys and let them run the company. They could do a better job....

Wolfwood319
04-30-2002, 08:57 PM
I think people WORRY WAY TOO MUCH about these things. Its a damn toy, people! People *****, whine, and complain that Hasbro isn't doing this, or Hasbro is doing that, and I'm so sick of it. You people can't be happy that you still have an action figure line, all you do is complain that you can't get this, or can't get that.

This whole "being screwed over by Hasbro" bit is pretty disgusting too. Nobody forces you to buy these things. If you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em.

The TF Vader was supposed to be a promo item given out at TF for the people in the business. All of a sudden all these collectors are screaming foul play, and then Hasbro sells them online. But then all of a sudden people are complaining about scalpers. What did you expect? Its you collectors that give life to scalpers, because your willing to pay their immense prices. If you collectors never patronized scalpers in the first place, they wouldn't be around today.

As for the C2 figure; everyone has the opportunity to go to C2. You may have other, higher priorities, like your job, but the opportunity is there. If you wanted the figure that bad, you'd go to C2 to get one.

I sometimes wish that Hasbro would just cancel the line outright, just to see what you'd people would say. You can never be happy with what you want, you always want more.

Jpalisi
04-30-2002, 10:52 PM
im down w/ anyone who is against the scalpers, in any form. and its even more messed up that hasbro seems to be helping them out, i mean i can under stand if you went way out of your way to find/get a figure, and added like 5 beans or so to a figure to make something back, for gas food etc, but to go and hoard as many as you can and then add like a 300% mark-up is just ridiculous, i actually could care less about the jorg sacul, and vader, but this kinda goes back to the philly "men behind the masks" figures which were no different. Scalpers are no more better than drug dealers, charging outragous amounts of money for something a true fan is going to want, and probrably pay for.

well i guess thats life........

sith pedagog
04-30-2002, 11:24 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys. I would like to chime back in with a couple more things.
First, I agree that not everyone has the opportunity to go. Whoever said that even if your job gets in the way you still have the opportunity. Well that is just a crazy remark. In that case just pay the scalper, and not loose the job. The guy said that he couldn't take off because of sweeps. He has no sensible choice at all. In addition " they are just toys". ummm, you are taking your time to type messages in a forum about action figures. I think they must mean something more than just little plastic pieces to you also.

Secondly I believe that the majority of collectors would like a figures of each character available. I know that a lot of people try to collect all variations and that is very admirable. However, I think that Hasbro could help the average collector by offering different packaging for these events. For example a special Celb II or Toy Fair packaging only available at those events. Thena coupel of months later sell the figures in a "regular" package through the fan club or something like that. And tell the fans that is what you are going to do. It is not a perfect situation but I think that it would help to satisfy more collectors and keep scalping prices down.

Dak Powers
04-30-2002, 11:34 PM
pedagog, that's an interesting idea, but the outcome would be the same. If they put Jorg out in stores or online in a few months with regular packaging, people would still pay outrageous prices for the C2 version.

sith pedagog
05-01-2002, 05:50 AM
Well DakI don't know if that is completely accurate. I think that a lot of people would be happy with just one of the figures. If so, then there are less people willing to bid, thus lower demand, thus lower prices for the special packaging. I know that this seems like it just passes the buck onto the variation collectors but think about it. If the prices of the special packaging figures was lowered due to lower demand, and they could pick up the regular packaging at a local store for $6 just a couple of months later....

Well I think that it would benefit everyone, except those you try to make a big profit off of it.

Cubehead
05-01-2002, 10:30 AM
Yes, wolfwood your'e right, no one forces us to buy these products. However many of us would like to buy them and wont have the chance. Your idea that if we want the C2 fig then we should just hop on a plane and go get one is preposturous!

Also when you've spent many years being a completist, it is frustrating to think that you may end up with a hole in your collection, especially after working so hard to build it.

Finally, Hasbro DOES sc#ew collectors and they know it. They rely on the scalper after market to drive up sales and hype. They also make sure that there is ALWAYS a 'rare', 'shortpacked', or hard to find figure. This drives the after market into a frenzy and ensures over inflated sales.

And stop calling us "you people"!!!

Herby
05-01-2002, 11:18 AM
I agree with the idea of releasing these on different cards later on. They stay the unique item they are meant to be, but those of us that don't care about the event can still get the figure. I have Theater Luke which is the same as a regular Luke but he means much more to me because I remember going to the movie opening night. I would assume these figures would be the same thing, people would be excited to have the special edition, but the rest of us would not be left with holes in our collections.

pthfnder89
05-01-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Cubehead
Yes, wolfwood your'e right, no one forces us to buy these products. However many of us would like to buy them and wont have the chance. Your idea that if we want the C2 fig then we should just hop on a plane and go get one is preposturous!

Also when you've spent many years being a completist, it is frustrating to think that you may end up with a hole in your collection, especially after working so hard to build it.

Finally, Hasbro DOES sc#ew collectors and they know it. They rely on the scalper after market to drive up sales and hype. They also make sure that there is ALWAYS a 'rare', 'shortpacked', or hard to find figure. This drives the after market into a frenzy and ensures over inflated sales.

Wolfwood may have stated it a little strongly, but basically I agree. I wish I could get this figure, but I'm not going to just sit here and complain about how unfair Hasbro is.

I also totally agree that even if they released the Sacul figure, or any other exclusive, with the same figure on different packaging, most of the same people would STILL be ****ed of and complain about the fact that their collection isn't complete without both.:rolleyes:

And Cubehead brings up a point that just irks the hell out of me. Shortpacking is not some stupid conspiracy that Hasbro does to drive up the secondary market value. The reason a figure is shortpacked is because they know that some characters will not sell as well as others.

Look at the swimming JarJar from Ep1. Collectors were going on and on and on about how the current JarJAr figures were clogging the pegs, and how they hate the character and won't buy him. So Hasbro packs the new JarJar one per case. All of a sudden everyone is whining and screaming about how they just paid $50 on Ebay to get one, and Hasbro should have known better.:rolleyes:

Hasbro is a BUISNESS. They have to make MONEY. Particularly since they paid out the nose for the SW liscense to begin with. They don't make ANY money from scalpers; why would they support them?!

Sorry to be such a hard*** about it, but it really annoys me when people say that.

pthfnder89
05-01-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Herby
I agree with the idea of releasing these on different cards later on. They stay the unique item they are meant to be, but those of us that don't care about the event can still get the figure. I have Theater Luke which is the same as a regular Luke but he means much more to me because I remember going to the movie opening night. I would assume these figures would be the same thing, people would be excited to have the special edition, but the rest of us would not be left with holes in our collections.

I do agree that it would be nice for the rest of us to be able to get this figure, even on a different card. I just don't think that it would stop most collectors from complaining.

I have two Theater Lukes and I feel the same way. When I look at them I remember standing in line that night with my friends to get them, and it makes me smile.

Cubehead
05-01-2002, 11:54 AM
There is absolutely no way that I will not believe that Hasbro knows exactly what it is doing to the after market when they shortpack a figure. Yes, shortpacking is indeed a natural by-product of figure production and sales. However, SW figures are a structured collectible. Meaning some peices have more value than others, sort of like a currency. When some peices are rare it drives up the demand for a product that may not have sold well in the first place. Like Swimming Jar Jar. If he was readily available no one would have bought him. However, since he was hard to find they sold every last one!

Hasbro counts on he secondary scalper market to drive up it's sales. Many companies do this. I briefly worked for Sony in LA, around the time of the PS2 launch. Sony purposely bid on several PS2's on ebay, driving one all the way up to $5000. You may remember this in the news. They ended up purchasing the machine themselves (secretly) in order to get the hype and to ensure a complete sell through of the systems initial shipment.

Now, I'm not saying that Hasbro would do anything that evil. Also I'm not bashing Hasbro entirely. I loved the POTJ line. I'm just saying that they purposely manipulate the after market for their own gains and they may even go as far as creating variations on purpose.

Just look at the backbround card in the new Saga line. They will sell extra figures to the totally obsessive who must have both variations. I am not among these people, but I do know a few...

Anyways, I defy you to challenge my logic here......

Beast
05-01-2002, 12:28 PM
This argument is getting just silly. Hasbro gets no financial gain from scalpers, other then the original figure purchase. That purchase would have been made by someone else, if the scalper wouldn't have purchased it to resell. Hasbro is trying to keep the most popular charecters shipping in later assortmants. If you really wanna blame someone, blame the stores. During the POTJ era many of them barely ordered anything. Resulting in making the figures HTF in some areas of the country.

As for the Saga figures, the only shortpacked figures are Padme, Kit Fisto, R2-D2, and C-3PO. And you can still find them everywhere. Everyone else ships at 2 per case. Hell, the Red Clonetrooper is packing out at 3 per case in the Dooku case. It's not Hasbro's fault who gets what cases, stores like Wal-Mart have giant distrubution warehouses where all the stuff comes in and then gets shipped out to various Wal-Marts. TRU is the same. So someone in the warehouses screwed up and didn't send some cases to some areas.

Also, many of the stores didn't put out everything they got in, cause they ordered to much. So while they have some of the cases with the HTF figures in the storeroom, there was no place to put them all. All they had to do was put multiple cases of both Collection 1 and Collection 2 on the pegs. So, while doing that many of them didn't check the sides of the cases, and notice that there are so many different cases.

If your so worried about those HTF, go thru a place like Yestertoys. They are slightly above retail, but they sure as heck arn't as bad as scalpers. I just am starting to think that many of you enjoy complaining more then you do collecting. A final point, Hasbro has in the past made sure that the HTF figures were easier to find. Remember the E1 Mauls? Well, you will recall that they shipped straight cases of him to stores, and have done that with other HTF charecters as well in the past.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

sith pedagog
05-01-2002, 01:44 PM
ok guys I think you all have a lot of valid points. Actually I like the idea of having some figures that are short packed to create a rarer figure. That is because I know eventually a local store will get one. Will i get it? I don't know, but at least I know there is a chance. My argument is that figures given away at special events keep certain figures from reaching other collectors. I have more of a problem with the Vader Toy Fair than the Sacul figure because the CII people will at least be fans (more than likely). But the people at Toy Fair - well many of them were just there and saw an opportunity. But either way, most people were not given a chance to buy these figures at a fair price.

Now I'm not saying that Hasbro makes any $$ off of these toys. I'm not even saying that they do it intentionally. It just seems that maybe they aren't thinking things through. If they monitor the fan base like they say, they would have known that people would be upset about these figures' availability or lack of it.

I also find it kind of weird that the guys saying " it is just a toy" and " if you don't get it no big deal". You guys have a lot of posts - some in the thousands. How can you deny that they are important to you? I can't imagine how many hours you must have put in discussing "just toys".

sith pedagog
05-01-2002, 01:47 PM
One more thing, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Does it help the scalpers by offering 2 per person per day versus 2 per person per event, or help the collector for all the good hearted people who are helping their friends. Who does it help more? Or hurt?

Wolfwood319
05-01-2002, 02:04 PM
Well, first off, to me, they are just toys. I buy them, open them, and play with them. There are many things I value much more than these toys. I have many hobbies, but I enjoy coming to these boards to discuss not only star wars collecting, but many other things as well. There are very few forums out there as good as these, IMO. I've never let a toy drive me to do things I wouldn't normally do (like spend $100's on one.)

Second off, I think that the only thing that will help scalpers, on anything, is when people buy from them. Whether it be the TF Vader, Sacul figure, or anything. If everyone agreed not to pay more than $10 online for the Sacul figure, things would be a lot better off. But that won't happen, because despite of how many of you feel about the situation, others still are willing to pay $200 for a TF Vader.

Case in point, a friend of mine is collector and will be going to C2. He has never, ever sold a figure to someone else for more than he paid retail for it. He also trades 1 figure for 1 figure, regardless of how "rare" the figure is. If he gets 6 Sacul figures, he won't scalp them. He'll sell them to his friends for how much he paid for them. If he only gets 2, so be it.

As for the opportunity to go to C2; this event was scheduled months in advanced. There is no discrimination over who is allowed to attend and who's not. So, in those terms, everyone has/had a chance to go. Obiviously no one will quit their job to go. But the opportunity still exists. This isn't like Toy Fair, where you have to be in the business to attend.

And as for Hasbro supporting the secondary market by purposely making some figures shortpacked; that's the biggest load of bull of I've heard. Hasbro is a business out to make money. They know that SW figures are going to sell, either to collectors or scalpers, they don't care, as long as they sell.

pthfnder89
05-01-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Cubehead
Hasbro counts on he secondary scalper market to drive up it's sales. Many companies do this. I briefly worked for Sony in LA, around the time of the PS2 launch. Sony purposely bid on several PS2's on ebay, driving one all the way up to $5000. You may remember this in the news. They ended up purchasing the machine themselves (secretly) in order to get the hype and to ensure a complete sell through of the systems initial shipment.

Just look at the backbround card in the new Saga line. They will sell extra figures to the totally obsessive who must have both variations. I am not among these people, but I do know a few...

Anyways, I defy you to challenge my logic here......

I think JJB pretty much said it perfectly, but just to reinforce the point...:)

Hasbro has absolutely ZERO incentive to drive up secondary market prices. The only money they get is from what is sold directly at retail.

The only ones who profit from an overinflated demand for a figure are the actual scalpers. So where is the logic in saying that Hasbro purposefully under-packs items to drive u pdemand?

Honestly I'm not trying to argue or anything, it just doesn't make much sense. For the most part, we're talking about plain economics.

Cubehead
05-01-2002, 04:21 PM
Here's the logic. Scalpers over inflate the demand therefore more product is sold. Also, walk into any scalper shop(comic shop, whatever) that deals in SW and you will see many unsold figures.
How many dealers sit on mountains of unsold merchandise?!

There is a ton of unsold SW product in the hands of dealers everywhere. If it were all released at once it would devalue every peice of SW memorabillia. Scalpers do in fact drive up the demand for new product. They also buy up and hoarde cr#ap that may not have otherwise been sold.

Also I noticed in your responses that no one addressed my Swimming Jar Jar statement. Is this because it's simple logic proves everything I said to be true?!

I can not believe that you guys are avoiding logic and reason on this subject. Hasbro's deliberate manipulation of the after market is simple High School economics........

Cubehead
05-01-2002, 04:23 PM
Zero incentive?! You have got to be kidding me. Overinflated demand equals more sales. Period. Not to mention that when a figure is shortpacked many collectors will purchase it feeling it has value, for trade or otherwise. If a ton of Swimming Jar Jars showed up on day one they would still be sitting on the shelves.
Sollution, short pack the fig at first to drive up demand.

RooJay
05-02-2002, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Dak Powers
pedagog, that's an interesting idea, but the outcome would be the same. If they put Jorg out in stores or online in a few months with regular packaging, people would still pay outrageous prices for the C2 version.
I've got to agree with pedagog on this; the outcome would only be the same for those people who don't open their figures, those who collect with investmentary in mind, and those who just HAVE to have every packaging variation! Some of us just want the figure, and at the same price anyone else can get it for! I'd take mine loose!
Also, for once I'm going to have to disagree with icatch and Wolfwood! Not everyone CAN go to C2. Some of us, even, don't have the money to do so. It is not, at the moment, within my financial capabilities to go. While I am only TEMPORARILY lacking in the funds needed for such a thing, what about those of us fans who only ever have the financial resources to buy the occasional figure or two? What if they would like no figure more than the only one with George Lucas' likeness? Someday real soon I might find myself in a position once again to be able to afford to go to C2, but by then I will probably have missed it! NO C2, NO figure, no nothing just because I can't afford it...right now. While it's true I could sell my car, or my liver, or a kidney, or something to raise the money to go to C2 and get my figure at the normal price, that's not something anybody should be doing. So yes, I am wholely unable to go C2! It is in no way possible for me to do so, and I'm willing to bet that this is the case for many others like me
You guys are right, C2 isn't about the figure. It's about the experience, and even though some of us cannot afford to have that experience, this thread is about the figures themselves.

RooJay
05-02-2002, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
And as for Hasbro supporting the secondary market by purposely making some figures shortpacked; that's the biggest load of bull of I've heard. Hasbro is a business out to make money. They know that SW figures are going to sell, either to collectors or scalpers, they don't care, as long as they sell.
I beg to differ with you on this point also Wolfie! Hasbro has plenty to gain by something like this! Driving up secondary market prices does a lot to bring in outside, often BAD, interest to the line in the form of SCALPERS and SPECULATORS. It would be in Hasbro's best interest to get as many "hoarders" to invest in this line as possible; these are the guys who buy tens (sometimes hundreds, and in the instance of certain smaller retailers/ e-tailers CASES upon CASES) of a particular figure! That definitely has an effect on Hasbro's bottom line! Take a look at the comic book biz: the real, die-hard fans really could care less about all the die-cut, chromium, holographic, polybagged, multiple-covered comics that permeated the market during the mid to late nineties, but before that kind of thing became so prevalent the speculators got involved due to the escalating values of some of the RARER, smaller print run books that had come out prior. Comic speculators, most of whom were new to the hobby, started buying HUNDREDS of copies each of the latest candy-coated flash-in-the-pan, then the publishers each started trying to top the last sales success with flashier gimmicks, which brought more speculators, which caused print runs to go through the roof, which allowed the publishers to start making money HAND OVER FIST! Hasbro does indeed have plenty of reason to drive up secondary market prices, and to purposely short-pack figures. How else would one explain why Dooku comes only one per case in initial shipments? His packaging is the same size as all the others, and they had to have known he'd be a popular character; his name starts with "Darth" for cripes sake!

pthfnder89
05-02-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Cubehead
Also I noticed in your responses that no one addressed my Swimming Jar Jar statement. Is this because it's simple logic proves everything I said to be true?!



Cubehead : If you would calm down you would notice that it's not logic driving your arguement, but your emotions as a collector. I totally understand this because obviously I'm a collector too, and it's a pain in the butt to have to compete with scalpers or Hasbros marketing just to finish our collection.

Your Swimming Jar Jar comment reflects this. Yes he was hard to find, because yes, he was shortpacked. Certainly collectors went nuts trying to get a hold of him when they found that out. But the point I'm trying to make is that the *reason* he was shortpacked was not some conspiracy by Hasbro to sell more Swimming JarJars. It was because (like many female figures in toy lines) they thought that there was a demand for him, but they also knew it was a small demand compared to characters like Darth Maul.

If there is a possibility that a figure will be hard to find, collectors interest increases. Then the scalpers move in, and those scumballs buy up everything they can find, making a once moderately difficult figure almost impossible to find, except from them.

It's not the motivation of Hasbro that is the problem, it's the motivation of the scalpers.


Originally posted by Cubehead
I can not believe that you guys are avoiding logic and reason on this subject. Hasbro's deliberate manipulation of the after market is simple High School economics........



And as someone who has taken several years of COLLEGE economics, let me point out this:

In your theory, Hasbro knows that Swimming JarJar might sell, but it won't be a big hit. So they pack only ONE of him in a case of 16 or so figures right? That way once collectors realize how scarce he is they will buy him up even though they wouldn't have bought him if he was easy to find. And Hasbro knows that the scalpers will come in and buy up every single JarJar they can find, making people even more eager to find him right?

So now collectors are panting for the Swimming JarJar, and so stores like Wal-Mart and TRU order more of those cases from Hasbro. But what happens to the other 15 figures in that case? They aren't rare. They aren't hoarded by collectors. They aren't selling. The stores put out 3 of the swimming JarJar cases, and the JarJars fly off the shelves. That leaves 45 figures left hanging on the shelves of the store.

There is no increased demand for *those* figures, only for JarJar. Once he's gone, the stores have a clogged shelf and no one to sell the inventory to. They languish for months. Are those stores going to buy big quantities of the newer cases from Hasbro? When their shelves are already packed with StarWars merchandise they can't sell? Nope. All of a sudden, all those sales Hasbro was making are cut in half until their customers can sell off the rest of those figures.

So would Hasbro profit more from this strategy? Or would it make economic sense for them to have faster turn-around on all of the figures in their customers stores?

he-ro
05-02-2002, 12:32 PM
I will be buying 2 of the Sacul figs at C2. One to keep and the other to trade for a Toy Fair Vader (hopefully?).

Beast
05-02-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
I beg to differ with you on this point also Wolfie! Hasbro has plenty to gain by something like this! Driving up secondary market prices does a lot to bring in outside, often BAD, interest to the line in the form of SCALPERS and SPECULATORS. It would be in Hasbro's best interest to get as many "hoarders" to invest in this line as possible; these are the guys who buy tens (sometimes hundreds, and in the instance of certain smaller retailers/ e-tailers CASES upon CASES) of a particular figure! That definitely has an effect on Hasbro's bottom line! Take a look at the comic book biz: the real, die-hard fans really could care less about all the die-cut, chromium, holographic, polybagged, multiple-covered comics that permeated the market during the mid to late nineties, but before that kind of thing became so prevalent the speculators got involved due to the escalating values of some of the RARER, smaller print run books that had come out prior. Comic speculators, most of whom were new to the hobby, started buying HUNDREDS of copies each of the latest candy-coated flash-in-the-pan, then the publishers each started trying to top the last sales success with flashier gimmicks, which brought more speculators, which caused print runs to go through the roof, which allowed the publishers to start making money HAND OVER FIST! Hasbro does indeed have plenty of reason to drive up secondary market prices, and to purposely short-pack figures. How else would one explain why Dooku comes only one per case in initial shipments? His packaging is the same size as all the others, and they had to have known he'd be a popular character; his name starts with "Darth" for cripes sake!
Roojay, Scalpers will also return their purchases, if the figure they purchased ends up not being worth squat. So again, Hasbro needs the sales to people who are going to keep the figures, not people who are only in it for the profit. I've seen already at my stores a few cases of scalpers returning piles of figures they couldn't sell, so that argument doesn't hold water. Hasbro is catering to the fan, and wants their product as widely avaliable for anyone that wants one.

Stop with the Dooku one per case stuff, Dooku has never been packed at one per case. He is packed in the same quanties as almost every figure in the line, 2 per case. The only figures that have ever been packed at 1 per case in the Saga line are, Kit Fisto, Padme, C-3PO, and R2-D2 and they are everywhere. It's speculation that Dooku is packed 1 per case that is fueling the scalper fire even more. Hell, from what I understand...Scalpers themselves started that rumor to increase sales on their scalped Dooku's.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

pthfnder89
05-02-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
Take a look at the comic book biz: the real, die-hard fans really could care less about all the die-cut, chromium, holographic, polybagged, multiple-covered comics that permeated the market during the mid to late nineties, but before that kind of thing became so prevalent the speculators got involved due to the escalating values of some of the RARER, smaller print run books that had come out prior. Comic speculators, most of whom were new to the hobby, started buying HUNDREDS of copies each of the latest candy-coated flash-in-the-pan, then the publishers each started trying to top the last sales success with flashier gimmicks, which brought more speculators, which caused print runs to go through the roof, which allowed the publishers to start making money HAND OVER FIST!

I believe the comic book industry also crashed big time *because* of that RooJay, and many people lost their jobs.

Companies always have to look at the long term in order to be successful. That doesn't mean that they always DO look at the long term but...:)

RooJay
05-02-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Roojay, Scalpers will also return their purchases, if the figure they purchased ends up not being worth squat. So again, Hasbro needs the sales to people who are going to keep the figures, not people who are only in it for the profit. I've seen already at my stores a few cases of scalpers returning piles of figures they couldn't sell, so that argument doesn't hold water. Hasbro is catering to the fan, and wants their product as widely avaliable for anyone that wants one.
Seldom does Hasbro allow stores to return unsold figures for credit. That is why pegwarmers exist, AND why Ep. 1 product could still be found on shelves until just recently. Hasbro has already made the vast majority of their money by the time these figures make it to the stores. They get their money from the companies that own these stores; our money goes to the store to pay for what the company has already spent getting the product on their shelves. Most often the figures in those instances will be returned to the shelves where they will stay until they resell. Also, I was speaking primarily in regards to these initial waves of Saga merchandise, which everyone knows will sell eventually.

Stop with the Dooku one per case stuff, Dooku has never been packed at one per case. He is packed in the same quanties as almost every figure in the line, 2 per case. The only figures that have ever been packed at 1 per case in the Saga line are, Kit Fisto, Padme, C-3PO, and R2-D2 and they are everywhere. It's speculation that Dooku is packed 1 per case that is fueling the scalper fire even more. Hell, from what I understand...Scalpers themselves started that rumor to increase sales on their scalped Dooku's.
All of the case assortment listings I have seen (the one's listed on this site included) show that Dooku was shortpacked in at least some of the cases initially released. He may not have been short-packed in some areas, but he certainly was in others! I used Dooku as one example.

RooJay
05-02-2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by pthfnder89


I believe the comic book industry also crashed big time *because* of that RooJay, and many people lost their jobs.

Companies always have to look at the long term in order to be successful. That doesn't mean that they always DO look at the long term but...:)
Now you're accusing american companies of being farsighted? I've worked for a lot of different companies, and have come to understand that, far and away, most of them are only concerned with the profits they will have made by the end of the current fiscal year. For Eventual possible profit losses have never stopped the retail industry from cutting back on staffing, for instance, which leads to the quality of customer service taking huge drops, and which is a MAJOR contributor to profit loss YEARS down the road! Hasbro lost how many millions of dollars last quarter? In fact, I blame at least part of our country's current financial state on companies conducting business in this fashion. You don't think that they will try anything they can to make that up between now and the end of the fiscal year? I have never tried to state that manipulating the secondary market was Hasbro's ONLY business strategy, but I do feel that it is very possibly ONE of their MANY strategies.

pthfnder89
05-02-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

Now you're accusing american companies of being farsighted?

Lol, no of course you are correct that lots of companies make stupid descisions based on short term profits. I see it all the time in my buisness too. And I'm certainly not saying that Hasbro has made it's share of stupid descisions with the Star Wars license.

But I just think shortpacking isn't one of those covert strategies. I do think that Hasbro has to consider impacts on the secondary market when they make descisions; but "creating" demand for random figures by shortpacking them would result in fairly immediate repercussions from Hasbros customers. Clogged shelves mean fewer orders from stores, which means less profit than if they had just packed the figures in the same proportions.

RooJay
05-02-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by pthfnder89
But I just think shortpacking isn't one of those covert strategies. I do think that Hasbro has to consider impacts on the secondary market when they make descisions; but "creating" demand for random figures by shortpacking them would result in fairly immediate repercussions from Hasbros customers. Clogged shelves mean fewer orders from stores, which means less profit than if they had just packed the figures in the same proportions.
I could argue that this is indeed occuring as we speak. Just based on collectors' reactions to the C2 figure, and the Imperial Shuttle alone (how many scalpers do you think won't hesitate to jump all over the next exclusive vehicle that comes down the pike once they see how high secondary market prices go on the shuttle? I'm pretty certain that's what'll happen regardless of whether or not the next one is limited to 5000 units or 10,000! That spells pretty big bucks for Hasbro!). Many of the people posting in these very forums recently have been expressing their distaste with the availability of some of the latest offerings; in this thread in particular! Some I've even seen post their intentions to quit collecting altogether because of this! Also, has anyone had word on how successful this first wave of Saga merchandise has been? Have sales met or exceeded Hasbro's expectations? While I acknowledge your opinions on the matter, I still think it is very likely (though, admittedly not a forgone conclusion) that Hasbro may be currently creating demand for certain figures, and likely has in the past as well. Like I said...they did lose a LOT of money last quarter!

pthfnder89
05-02-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

While I acknowledge your opinions on the matter, I still think it is very likely (though, admittedly not a forgone conclusion) that Hasbro may be currently creating demand for certain figures, and likely has in the past as well. Like I said...they did lose a LOT of money last quarter!

Fair enough. We obviously disagree on this, but I appreciate that fact that you're at least willing to acknowledge that without actually working for Hasbro, we don't know their motivations for certain.:)

Dar' Argol
05-07-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

All of the case assortment listings I have seen (the one's listed on this site included) show that Dooku was shortpacked in at least some of the cases initially released. He may not have been short-packed in some areas, but he certainly was in others! I used Dooku as one example.

RooJay, that is incorrect information. IF you want to check, I listed Case Att# 848510015 had 2 Dooku's in the case. Check it here:

Case Assortment Saga Basic (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=64195#post64195)

In the Deluxe assortment there was a case that only had 1 DELUXE Dooku in it. Actually there were several case assortments for the deluxe that all had the same asst #. I did not relize this until the other person I was working with set the deluxe section on 4/23. I told him to get all the Dooku's out b/c there was not that many. He told me later that there was plenty of Dooku's, some cases had 1 and others had 2. I could not get the case qty's as he already put everything out.

RooJay
05-07-2002, 07:23 PM
I stand corrected, but I think my point still holds up knowing the fact that he is available in only ONE case assortment. Coming two to a case in one assortment is still just as bad as coming one to a case in two assortments. The fact is they knew he was going to be sought after (being the main villain in the movie), and they still seem to have made him less available than many other figures! Even other figures that anybody would've known would be less sought after.

Dar' Argol
05-07-2002, 07:33 PM
The reason he is in only 1 asst is b/c he, along with Taun We, HD Anakin, Dexter Jettster, and Geo-Warrior, were added at the last minute. Originally those figs were not going to be released but Hasbro put them out right b/4 release. Bacuase of that some stores got the cases and some did not. My store got in 8 cases of the Dooku wave, while a store 30 minutes from me only got 2. I know of some stores in the WM company that did not get any at all and still have not.

JarJar, correct me if I'm wrong.

RooJay
05-07-2002, 07:47 PM
Fair enough, but when are they coming? Besides, like I said...Dooku was just an example. I still believe it's highly possible that Hasbro may be doing things like this on purpose.

Dar' Argol
05-07-2002, 08:06 PM
If I remember correctly(and I have been wrong b/4) the next influx of figs will be after the release of the movie. We are already seeing some of the Qui-Gon/Orn Taa Fee(whatever his name is) wave trickling in now. So it shouldn't be too long till Dooku is a-plenty and warming the pegs like good 'ol Maul:D.

RooJay
05-07-2002, 08:19 PM
Agreed, and meanwhile Hasbro has made a ton of cash by getting new people to buy into the line because they heard some of the new figures are worth a lot of money!;)

Dar' Argol
05-07-2002, 08:26 PM
Which is exactly the reason why I tell anyone who asks about "Rare" figs that it is still too early to tell which characters are going to be "Rare". The only ones for sure that are "Rare" are the background figs. A guy at work say he heard over the net that Dooku was impossible to find and worth a lot of money. He was looking at one on eBay that was fairly cheep at the time. I told him do not waste his money, wait till after the movie. Its the only thing I can do to help ppl. I cannot change every single scalpers mind on this issue. No one can. Where there is a quick buck to be made, those type of ppl will always be there. Its unfourtunate, but true. Look at all the "get rich quick" scams:rolleyes:.

Besides, Hasbro hasn't made a ton of cash. They made money on what they produced. They produce these figs with a retail price in mind and figure they can make so many figures, and if we sell this many, and lose on this many, we can still make profit. Its not like they are really getting anything extra by having a lot of one figure bought up quickly now. It all equales itself out over time.

Cubehead
05-08-2002, 12:39 AM
Pthfinder(?), if you have taken so many years of College economics then you should know, low supply equals higher demand. If Swimming Jar Jar was easily available, no one would have bought him. Period.

I'd also like to say that all though I am EXTREMELY anti-scalper, I am not a frustrated collector as you might think. Due to my agressive scouting and my friendly nature, there has not been a single figure that I have not been able to get. I am just disgusted by Hasbro's greed and I hate scalpers. I'm a sucker for a good cause and I LOVE a good fight. What is the world without a proper villain to oppose and destroy? (ponder that one for awhile)

Opposition to tyrants is duty to God.

jedijason1138
05-08-2002, 02:40 AM
The best thing that could have happened was a better checks and balances system to make sure the "two figs per person" rule was followed. It was so easy to cheat the "system", almost everyone was doing it.

The deadline for passes should have been a couple months prior to C2 to get an accurate count for the number of attendees and make figure production number adjustments to allow 2 per every attendee. Exhibitors (i.e. dealers), were allowed to line up before everyone else to horde figures.

pthfnder89
05-08-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Cubehead
Pthfinder(?), if you have taken so many years of College economics then you should know, low supply equals higher demand. If Swimming Jar Jar was easily available, no one would have bought him. Period.

I'd also like to say that all though I am EXTREMELY anti-scalper, I am not a frustrated collector as you might think. Due to my agressive scouting and my friendly nature, there has not been a single figure that I have not been able to get. I am just disgusted by Hasbro's greed and I hate scalpers. I'm a sucker for a good cause and I LOVE a good fight. What is the world without a proper villain to oppose and destroy? (ponder that one for awhile)

Opposition to tyrants is duty to God.

Ok. :)