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Baal
09-11-2001, 09:00 AM
8:45am EST a Boeing 767 is highjacked and crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center
9:15am EST a Boeing 737 is also highjacked and crashed into the South Tower of The World Trade Center.
9:45am Est a third plane is also crashed, this time into the US Pentagon.
Baal

jeddah
09-11-2001, 09:42 AM
now up to 5 planes, is this true? I'm at work and the internet is jammed....

jeddah

Baal
09-11-2001, 11:03 AM
Soon the cold of night will fall, summoned by your own hand.
Baal

vulcantouch
09-11-2001, 11:06 AM
thus, it's important to remember that "terrorism" and "exercise of force by legitimate authorities" are mere semantics dictated by said authorities.
it's important to remember that in the end there is no such thing as an "innocent civilian". we on this side of the fence are the beneficiaries of countless victories past and present, which inevitably meant defeat for someone else. from time to time, this is the price we'll have to pay for those advantages.
at a time like this, it's important to keep one's vision unclouded by indignant, sanctimonious notions of the moral superiority of one's own side, and simply attend efficiently to the situation at hand. wanna do something? go donate some blood-
vt

SWAFMAN
09-11-2001, 05:21 PM
...

yorkie
09-12-2001, 02:06 AM
Just in shock like everyone else. If it can happen to you it can happen anywhere. The UK has had sporadic terrorism for years but nothing compares to such an atrocity.


Yorkie.

britcit3
09-12-2001, 03:11 AM
I am sure that I speak for all the Brits when I say that our hearts go out to our US friends.

As Tony Blair said last night - the UK stands shoulder by shoulder with the US against this atrocity.

BC3

GNT
09-12-2001, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by jeddah
now up to 5 planes, is this true? I'm at work and the internet is jammed....

jeddah

4 planes

1. North Tower of the World Trade Center
2. South Tower of The World Trade Center.
3. Pentagon.
4. Crashed in pensulvannia (Sp?)

jeddah
09-12-2001, 06:33 AM
VT; "it's important to keep one's vision unclouded by indignant, sanctimonious notions of the moral superiority of one's own side, and simply attend efficiently to the situation at hand"

Quite, my sentiments exactly, but do you think they'll manage to? What I find the most shocking is that in absence of any clear evidence against O B L, he's been villified and held responsible as far as so many media stations are concerned. I understand he's glad with the strike agsints the US but are we really going to see a shoot now, ask later scenario?

Also, Bush's antics yesterday were very reminiscent of the Queen's when Diana was murdered; disappeared and a long time before a stmt came. I got the same impression from ABC and CNN last night- The American Peoeple want their Government but have not heard from Bush. At least he left SAC in favour of the Whitehouse. I think that's when I was most worried.

jeddah

JediTricks
09-12-2001, 09:16 AM
I think every person is responsible for his or her own actions, and not those of actions they cannot control. That said, those who harbored, assisted, or conspired or planned with the terrorists involved in what happened should be brought to justice and made to give up names and locations of other terrorists. There's no way to bring back the dead, and if someone is already willing to give up their lives for a cause, then killing them only strengthens their cohorts, but to use these people to help stop ALL terrorism, that seems like a more appropriate action. However, only cool, rational heads should really make decisions like this, I'm just voicing my frustration and anger so these feelings do not consume me.

Baal
09-12-2001, 01:34 PM
First, I doubt that you would get a terrorist, willing to die for his beliefs, to divulge info of any type.
The prospect of life in your prisons, with 3 squares a day, and the ability to go on living, only to continue influencing your followers from afar, seems like a small price to pay.
Second,
you would need a prison big enough to hold half the terrorists country, since their children are filled with hatred for you from the propaganda their elders drill into them.
And third,
I've called New York home for a very long time, I visited that observation deck since day one. Watching those buildings, buildings built by many people of many races, symbols of your step above the pond scum, crumble and fall....
When I am finally called upon, I will rain down as death and carnage the likes of which have never been seen.
The Devil

good shot jansen
09-12-2001, 03:52 PM
hey guys,

i want to apoligize for my lack of posting of late, i was away at a wedding up in in philly this weekend, and then with the attack on the wtc, i've been kinda in a haze since. all my family up in nyc is fine and safe, unfortunately i have a some friends, some of whom worked in the towers that i have not yet heard anything about. it has been nearly impossible for me to get a phone call into the city over the past two days.

additionally, to make the matter a personal/professional loss to me, as some of you may recall, myself and pretty much all of my family are/have been architects.

the family firm was emery roth and sons (emery was my great grandfather), the firm in association with Minoru Yamaski, were the architects of the world trade center complex(my grandfather, richard roth sr. was the lead architect), and later 7 world trade center(my father richard roth jr was the lead architect for that, i was head of contract documents for that project as well). it's quite difficult for me to see 12 million sq ft of office building space, that my family and myself were so closely involved with from initial inception to completed structures, destroyed in such a bitter violent manner.

r2dee2
09-12-2001, 04:55 PM
GSJ...so glad you and the family are fine and I HOPE you soon hear from your friends.

It is sad, aside from the tragic loss of life, to see something your family put their hearts in, be lost in such a senseless act. Our paper this morning had an article on the construction manager (Hyman Brown...now a civil engineering prof at the University of Colorado) for the WTC, and he stated that he thought the WTC should be rebuilt, just "to show that America can take it as it comes and start over..."

He also mentioned that the buildings had been built to withstand almost anything and it seemed so when it withstood the '93 bombing. "He said the buildings could withstand the force of impact of massive jetliners, but architects and engineers could never have imagined they would have had to take into account thousands of gallons ( 24,000 gallons) of burning jet fuel."

Again, so glad you and the family are safe.

SWAFMAN
09-12-2001, 05:51 PM
I would like to see the President announce that it doesn't matter if Osama Bin Laden and his organization were truly responsible for this act, or not, that we are openly declaring war on him and ALL terrorists of ALL persuasions and ideologies, and we will not stop until every person and group who is, was, or will engage in terrorist activities has been found and summarily executed. No jail. Due process, if any at all, should consist of nothing more than the few seconds it takes to tell the prisoner that they have been designated as a terrorist - then instantly shot to death. That's a better deal than was given the passengers of those jets, or the people who looked out their office windows in that split-second of horror and realization, or the stairwells full of firefighters and escaping office workers.

I must admit that my sentiments were starting to lean toward the Palestinians in the last year in their struggle with Israelis for territory in the middle-east, but seeing their celebrations in the streets at the news of yesterday's attacks, I have lost all regard for them. I don't care if I am lumping an entire nationality into one basket, based on the actions of only some. Unfortunately I cannot visually discern a western-loving Palestinian person from an Islamic fundamentalist. Right now I am seeing through angry eyes that are willing to accept the loss of innocents in the pursuit of those who seek to put fear in the hearts of my children.

As the President said, there should be no distinction made between the terrorists themselves and the nation-states that provide them with safe haven. This should definitely include the narco-terrorists who have taken over so many countries in South America. Afghanistan and other countries must be told they have [x] days to round-up and hand over these terrorist groups, or they immediately become hard targets. And this cannot be empty rhetoric. Afghanistan would make a fine example to the other sponsor nations. A few dozen fuel-air bombs over Kabul followed up with a tactical nuke flown right through a window of their capitol building would hopefully demonstrate our resolve.

[now dismounting my soapbox....]

...that is really cathartic!

vulcantouch
09-12-2001, 11:43 PM
i bet all of us was thinkin "oh ****, he's got nyc ties, i bet some **** went down in his personal life" :(
for years i've had dozens of skyine photos hung up, with not a few including the twin towers. guess i missed my chance to see em in person now :(
warning: tasteless, cathartic, Need Another Seven Astronauts- type joke follows (really now, what did you Expect from vt if not Gallows Humor? tasteful tears maybe? :rolleyes: ):
. . .
. . .
. . .
"now that's what I call a Harsh architecture critique!"
(jk, of course; as gsj already knows i was always a fan of the controversial wtc design. and i just got done lamenting to baal that now he'll never be able to treat me to lunch at Windows On The World :( )

jdah: "do you think they'll manage to?"
-nah, i wasn't holding my breath; and all subsequent statements from the prexy on down to dirtball, pants-poopin gas hoarders show the wisdom of not doing so :\ i'm just sayin that in my experience, the poison such notions add to one's adrenalin gets in the way of doing what needs to be done (maybe i Am a vulcan after all).

jt: "I think every person is responsible for his or her own actions"
-agreed; but that means they are also responsible for their own Inactions, Indulgences, Ignorances and Apathies. we've All lived high off the hog of same, so there's no point in crying "unfair" when the result bites us where we live on occasion. most of the time we understand this, and accept it as a necessary part of being finite, imperfect beings who must pick their battles.
yesterday doesn't change that. most of the time we citizens of the nato alliance live in willful, blissful cluelessness of the consequences of our arrogant, ignorant mideast policies. it's ironic that we who claim the moral superiority of our democratic system do not acknowledge that in theory it means we should have even More direct control over (and responsibility for) our government's actions than the citizenry of those hostile dictatorships we disdain.
baal's right: terrorists may be many things, but cowards they are not. not everyone'd have the self-possession, dedication, fanaticism, ruthlessness, "baals" or whatever else you wanna call it, to steer a jet into a skyscraper. they can't be dismissed as mere irrational kooks.

more gallows humor: hey swaffy, speaking of "terrorism", as it so happens i finally got around to giving your mixtape an initial listen today & yesterday. my reaction? let's just say i'm dispatching a few More "strike force ships" in your direction as we speak :eek: ;)
vt

Baal
09-13-2001, 12:19 AM
I'm sure everyone here would say they would fight for their country, and even die for it.
You'd have to hold a pretty big grudge to train for a year to fly a passenger jet into a skyscraper. Would anyone like to tell me why these people are so angry with the US?
Hey VT, wasn't it a Vulcan who told Kirk and Bones, "when attacked by an uncivilized people, retaliation is the only logical response, as any other option would only be viewed as weakness"?
Baal

vulcantouch
09-13-2001, 12:34 AM
-i reedited my previous post. to what extent that doesn't answer your very good question, the shortest answer i could give is to simply advise reading up on the history of the middle east and our involvement there, as depicted by a VarieTy of ViewpoinTs. alas, if you heed such advice, you'll be one of the few americans who do ;(
don't misunderstand me; i've got nothing against revenge. on the contrary, in the past i've not hesitated to carry it out on behalf of myself or others. if it's measured and judicious, i consider it karmic balance, and the gut instinct before, during and after doing so Verifies That.
but that's a Big If-
vt

Baal
09-13-2001, 01:01 AM
Once again VT shines brightly in his infinite wisdom.
And if you really knew how long this war has been going on, and the size of the piece of real estate that your country just paid for in blood,
there might be other parties who are just as much to blame.
Baal

SWAFMAN
09-13-2001, 07:53 AM
re: VT's "i finally got around to giving your mixtape an initial listen today & yesterday. my reaction? let's just say i'm dispatching a few More "strike force ships" in your direction as we speak"

uh-oh... that doesn't sound good. :(

good shot jansen
09-13-2001, 09:47 AM
and thought i would post it here.

the picture is of my grandfather (richard roth sr), his brother, my great uncle (julian roth), and minoru yamasaki reviewing the original scale model of the wtc complex

SWAFMAN
09-13-2001, 10:30 AM
My understanding is that the Islamic fundamentalists see the United States as the 800 lb. gorilla backing up Israel in the middle east. They believe, with good cause, that without the U.S. to prop them up, Israelis would not be able to stand up against the overwhelming greater number of Islamics who would like to re-take the territory on which so many of the holiest shrines to their religion are located.

Underscored by the Pope's visit to that region (last year?), Jerusalem and the surrounding area are where most of the significant religious historical sites for Judeo-Christians and Muslims are located. Israel, justifiedly, operates its borders with extreme scrutiny. Muslims, justifiedly, resent needing Israel's permission to visit the holy sites. There are plenty of other reasons for animosity in the history between the Israelis and Palestinians/Arabs of the middle-east, as well.

In addition to the Israel/U.S. relationship, Islamic fundamentalists fault the U.S. and other western countries with "corrupting" nations in the middle east and east asia with our value sytems, cultural influences and capitalism. Wealth and education are the enemies of radical Isalmic fundamentalism, which depends on the ignorance and desperation of the masses in order to psychologically dominate them. Of course, the same could be said for our own Gub'ment-run public education and welfare systems! (but I digress)

Because we promote values like:

'every individual's life is sacred'

and 'all people are created equally and entitled to the same rights
(and that all people are entitled to any rights at all, for that matter)

and 'all religions deserve equal freedom and recognition'

... because we are a primary symbol of these values, we are a threat to those who ideology is based on the concept that nothing is sacred except the word of God, and only an elite few are capable of interpreting God's word and passing it on to the masses who are entitled to no rights whatsoever except the right to obey the orders of their "leaders" without question, or be executed.

JediTricks
09-13-2001, 11:18 AM
GSJ, beyond what I said earlier, I can see how you would feel a real loss at this destruction, it's just one more level of tragedy. Strangely, when I was a kid I was told about my grandmother's father and how he owned a successful New York butcher shop and once, when he was away on vacation, his brother - the co-owner of the shop - sold it for gambling money -- that store was torn down and it eventually became one of the plots of land used for the WTC.

That photo you found is really profound and personal, thanks for sharing it with us.


Baal, as to your:
First, I doubt that you would get a terrorist, willing to die for his beliefs, to divulge info of any type.
The prospect of life in your prisons, with 3 squares a day, and the ability to go on living, only to continue influencing your followers from afar, seems like a small price to pay.
Second, you would need a prison big enough to hold half the terrorists country, since their children are filled with hatred for you from the propaganda their elders drill into them.I never said we had to respect the civil rights of those who commit terrorism, these people have committed atrocities against humanity and are no longer deserving of basic human rights. Sodium Pentathol and CIA experts are both good "motivators" in loosening tongues. Once their usefulness is completed, let those in charge of justice decide their ultimate fates, whether death by lethal injection or constant 24-hour immersion in viewing the horrors they committed with no outside stimuli.


VT, the idea of "guilty by inaction" only stems to that which is within their reach yet they ignore, I doubt half the people who were caught in the destruction of the World Trade Center even KNOW that much about Afghani and Middle Eastern politics, much less affected those situations by not having their political representatives change US governmental actions and policies in the matter in such a way that they deserved to be attacked. I don't think you, the general sense here, can blame the 3-month-old child who died on the Newark-to-San Francisco flight on Tuesday for not standing up against his own government which has policies that these terrorists may have seen as cause to attack civilian targets, nor can you blame the child's father for possibly causing the deaths of others on the the plane to crash before it reached it's final strike destination simply because he, as a passenger, voted along with his fellow passengers and then acted to stop those terrorists from killing others on the ground. There's a difference between philosophical action or more specifically non-action and somehow forcing extremeists to see you as a military target. To target civilians instead of facing a military force is cowardly, no matter if it's 12 terrorists smashing airplanes into buildings full of innocent people or military forces dropping bombs from stealth planes on targets they know to be civilian. Using terror as a primary weapon is unacceptable in any form, but using non-military planes full of civilians to maximize a kill ratio is beyond cowardly and deplorable.


I'd like to remind you all that SSG is a site that's bigger than just the MM section, discussion in the MISC section will render even more diverse views and I encourage all of us to discuss their feelings in there.

vulcantouch
09-14-2001, 10:00 PM
. . .especially since, while there is a "general" section, there Is no "misc" section ;) besides, let's face it, we got a much more adult exchange going here than over in General- one that would likely rub other ssgers who don't know us as well the wrong way. not that i ever have anything Against rubbing people the wrong way; but i Do like to pick my battles ;)

baal: actually, there's often More than just two sides to every story ;)

swaffy: "we promote values like 'every individual's life is sacred', 'all people are created equally and entitled to the same rights (and that all people are entitled to any rights at all, for that matter), and 'all religions deserve equal freedom and recognition' "
-firstly, too often we give only lip service to these values. as quark accused the federation, "you talk about tolerance and pluralism, but you only practice it towards people who remind you of yourselves". we are by far the most genuinely pluralistic culture on earth (ok, maybe england rivals us there; opinions, limeys? ;) ) and thus the lesser of multiple evils, but tainted by the evil of intolerance we still are, and the real effects from this taint still visit themselves upon many.
second, the values you cite aren't the only values we "promote". many values promoted right alongside them are considerably less universally palatable.
thirdly, as an example of the second: even i, an american, take issue with the absurd, baseless and uniquely american philosophical presumption (encoded in our constitution, no less) that "all men are created equal". any fool can look around and see that we are Not. some of us are smarter. some are stronger. some are wiser. some have more giving hearts. some try harder. some are purtier. some spell better than others ;) and these things do Not balance themselves out in the end, cuz some of us clearly have an abundance of these virtues while others have few. as fran lebowitz pointed out, "the constitution should have said 'all men are equal in regards to the law.' sometimes you can be too economical in your prose style." as a result of that bad wording and subsequent literal embrace of same america has, in a thousand incalculably destructive ways, promoted a lie since its inception.
so as you can see, as far as i'm concerned even our most basic values as they currently stand are not perfect, and thus not exempt from re-examination and revising. if arrogantly deemed otherwise, such arrogance will reap the predictable crop.
fourth, your "all people are entitled to rights" not only presumes that in other cultures the same does not hold, but is not shared by all our fellow americans; to wit, jt's "I never said we had to respect the civil rights of those who commit terrorism, these people have committed atrocities against humanity and are no longer deserving of basic human rights". as you can see, america's far from consensus on That point :eek:
it is true that some anti-american sentiment is simply opportunistic scapegoating on the part of extremists to enhance their power bases among the ignorant. but that alone does not and can never explain its persistence and pervasiveness.
we have repeatedly shown a lack of respect for the cultural and political autonomy of the arab & muslim world. we have repeatedly, brazenly inserted ourselves into the affairs of this most ancient of world cultures, and condescended to muslim values (some of which are admittedly irreconcilable to our own, but so what? approval's not what's needed, only Tolerance) to an extent that we would never put up with if done to ours.
the us has had its own reasons for siding with israel at the expense of its opponents, some "noble", but most strategic and self-serving. as such, we should be a bit more honest about that and recognize that, rather than reaping the benefits of remaining neutral in that intractable, fanatical conflict (imo the whole World should just turn a blind eye to the zealots on both sides and let them exterminate each other to the last; after all, that redundant drama's main strength in drawing new recruits lies in its ability to continue to draw fresh attention to itself, which helps obscure the irrelevance, absurdity and futility of its motivations), we have, for our own reasons, made a partisan choice, and sometimes those choices are going to have consequences.

jt: "To target civilians instead of facing a military force is cowardly"
-"i would not become a terrorist; it would be dishonorable"
"i wouldn't let major kira hear you say that if i were you"
-worf & o'brien, ds9's "for the cause"
you & worf attempt to apply value judgments where they simply do not apply.
terrorism may have its deplorable aspects, but cowardice is not one of them. and jorge dubya's contentions to the contrary remain inaccurate no matter how many times he brandishes them. when a superior force attempts to define "honor" and "cowardice" so as to self-servingly favor its own methods and strengths, an inferior force is left with two choices: accept those definitions And assured defeat, or disregard them and get a shot at results. before We The Strong hypocritically entertain expectations that They The Weak should simply lay down in defeat, we should realize that in maintaining our own military & economic strength we are hardly willing to do the same.
the only relevant value judgment applicable to terrorism is, as in venture capitalism (undeniable poetic irony there :eek: ), its ability to get an impressive return on investment. whatever else may be said about operation 9-11, it certainly got that, to an astounding extent: the destabilization of the world economy, a possible triggering of a halt by the arab world of the supplying of fossil fuels to the western world (the very blood of our post-industrial economies), not to mention an unprecedented focus of the world's curiosity on the aims and beliefs of the perpetrators, to wit: before tuesday, how many of us in the nato alliance, much less those in positions of any power, had Any sincere curiosity re the answer to baal's question?

"I don't think you can blame the 3-month-old child who died"
-i do not seek to narrow the assignation of "blame" with such surgicality. nevertheless, this is hardly the first time, in or out of war, that children have paid for the sins of their fathers. why care so much about such inevitable unfairness in this situation but not in myriad others? for example, we rarely allow for the fact that a dad being incarcerated for rape results in inevitable suffering for the "innocent" kid to impact the sentencing. nor should we, cuz rape's gotta be dealt with.

"There's a difference between philosophical action or more specifically non-action and somehow forcing extremeists to see you as a military target"
-i haven't sed nuthin bout Forcin anyone to see us as anything; i'm simply saying that our government has made its choices, choices that will predictably give rise to unwanted consequences for us.

"the idea of 'guilty by inaction' only stems to that which is within their reach yet they ignore"
-agreed; but to whatever extent the advantages borne of the previously-mentioned victorious history are within their reach and they partake of those advantages rather than demur, they are "guilty". i maintain that "ignorance" is no excuse because i maintain that we all have an inborn instinct for restraint, for the avoidance of waste, that Tells us when we're being excessive, indulgent. this instinct also tells us that such waste always comes at a price.

"I doubt half the people who were caught in the destruction of the World Trade Center even KNOW that much about Afghani and Middle Eastern politics. . ."
-i doubt a Hundredth of them did. but they bear no responsibility for said ignorance and/or said apathy?

". . .much less affected those situations by not having their political representatives change US governmental actions and policies in the matter in such a way that they deserved to be attacked"
-quoth clint eastwood in Unforgiven: "deserve's got Nuthin to do with it" :( consequences are inevitably distributed unequally. they and theirs bore the brunt this time, while you and i were spared. to whatever extent this event is truly tragic, it lies in that inequity.
it goes without saying that i do not Condone what happened tuesday. but to assume, in word or deed, that we are inherently morally superior to the perpetrators is to needlessly encourage future tuesdays. so i say no such assumptions should be made as we go about our work, whether that work be recovery, retaliation, or reevaluation of national values and policy.
this is an imperfect world. so we can often only choose what our instinct and our "ethical subroutines" tell us is the lesser of multiple evils. what i'm saying is that we can hear our gut and our subroutines more clearly when we're not clouded by such sanctimony-
vt (http://salon.com/news/letters/2001/09/14/klare/print.html)

Baal
09-14-2001, 10:58 PM
Astounding! What a smart young man you are.
Now,
what if I told you that while the world was watching the terror in your country,
even more of the Palestinians land was being bulldozed by Israel?
Wasn't anyone a bit curious as to the timing of the firefight in Kabul?
Baal

vulcantouch
09-17-2001, 12:45 AM
to wit: baal's perennial armageddon shtick might not be far off the mark:
in the 19th century freiderich neitzsche predicted that the 20th century would give us wars the likes of which it had never seen before. but he went on to predict that there would be wars in the 21st century that would make the 20th's wars look like a game of patty-cake.
in light of the polarizing, sanctimonious wildfire sweeping thru our side (http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/Forum1/HTML/003170.html), i'd say it's all but certain that we have just gotten our first, all-too-punctual glimpse of the face said warring will take to live up to neitzsche's instinctive mentat prediction.
i can sympathize with any hatred fn may've had of always being right-
vt (http://salon.com/news/letters/2001/09/14/klare/print.html)

JediTricks
09-17-2001, 10:03 AM
I'm just going to respond to that by saying that I'm not going to respond to anything on this thread. Philosophies pale when compared to the actions of man.

vulcantouch
09-17-2001, 11:59 AM
so long as it does not descend into irrelevant, self-indulgent wordgames (as in french poststructuralism; has anyone here ever Tried to get thru that stuff, much less apply it to reality? take my advice: Don't Bother), philosophy will for better or worse remain one of civilization's moving forces. so we must make our philosophy as impeccable as we can.
philosophies form the very Basis of all of man's non-instinctual actions; philosophy has shaped our entire world. it all begins with philosophy-
vt
np: philip glass, Einstein On the Beach

JediGoofy
09-18-2001, 12:29 PM
I do not know if you know that during the '70 Italy suffered a decade of terrorist attacks. In those years right wing and left wing terrorists transformed a quite peaceful country in a battle field. Everyday there were attacks against politicians, trade union leaders and police officers, and inevitably there were a lot of casualties among normal people involved involuntary.

I remember in that period the prevalent feeling was anger and frustration when innocent people were killed in terrorist attacks. But even the hundreds of victims that died in train disasters (in one of which the bomb exploded when the train was inside a tunnel, just to multiply the effect of the explosion) are nothing related to what happened in New York, Washington and Pittsburgh. So now the same feelings are way stronger and here in Italy we share them with you.

In these days I read a lot of opinions about what to do. I really do not know what is the best response, but in these terrible moments I, as a Star Wars fan, would like to remind you of the words Jedi Master Yoda was saying to Luke during his apprentice. I know Yoda is just a movie character, but I always thought his words are words of wisdom and you certainly cannot accuse him to be a coward! He says anger brings to the dark side and it looks like the dark side is very strong in these days, I hope at least Star Wars fans are able to bring in some light instead of darkness.

Ciao,
JedyGoofy

SWAFMAN
09-18-2001, 09:56 PM
re: JediGoofy's: "anger brings to the dark side and it looks like the dark side is very strong in these days, I hope at least Star Wars fans are able to bring in some light instead of darkness."


JG uses our own common interest to remind us of something important. Thanks, JediGoofy.

JediGoofy
09-19-2001, 05:02 AM
Hi SWAFMAN,
you got exactly my point. :)

All of us are Star Wars fans and the Star Wars saga is really about justice and the judicious use of the "Force" (without giving up to the dark side).

The Force can be interpreted in many different ways but imho the Force is what makes us better (men or women). Maybe this is not a very original idea, but the merit of Star Wars (and of George Lucas) has been to create a whole universe (quite coherent) that can talk, without rhetoric, to people of all countries about very important concepts, like justice, wisdom, tolerance, etc.

I think people that have hate inside their hearts (like terrorists) are already dead inside. :( But what we should try to do is to act in such a way that other people will not join them and will not die inside like them.

Well, at least this is my opinion. :)
(I like Star Wars!)

Ciao,
JediGoofy

P.S. MTFBWY

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
09-19-2001, 08:03 PM
All of us are Star Wars fans and the Star Wars saga is really about justice and the judicious use of the "Force" (without giving up to the dark side).


I wish the Jedi Council were around. With their infinite wisdom and thoughtful, calculating nature, they'd know what to do in this time of crisis.

JediGoofy is right when he quotes Yoda about the nature of the dark side (in this the dark side of human nature.) I believe he also said "wars do not make one great." Retalation might work in the short run, but in the end you are angering more and more people, reinforcing their notion of an intrusive U.S. government, who meddles in affairs they have no business to be in. This could cause more heinous acts such as the savage attacks of last Tuesday, or even worse. Violence will beget violence. The current situation in the Middle East (and past situation as well) is a testament to that.

Would I go fight if my country needed me? It will depend on the situation. If there are more attacks such as the ones in NYC, Wash, etc. on our country, yes. If I feel we are fighting a losing battle, an unjustified cause, in where thousands of lives will unneedingly perish when there is no real hope of attaining a desirable and measurable outcome, than no. I wouldn't abandon my country in it's hour of need, I'm just not willing to sacrifice my life for the sake of war. I just hope that it doesn't come to that.

vulcantouch
09-22-2001, 11:10 AM
. . .my local paper was considerate enough to provide independent confirmation (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/entertainment_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_84_829998,00.html) of gsj's account above. not that we thought he was Lyin or anythin; i was just pleasantly surprised to come across reference to the family firm in my paper :)
speaking of gsj: i'm sure i don't just speak for myself when i say his recent silence here does not sit well :( hey gsj, check in here next chance you get & let us know that them friends of yours aren't still missing, dammit :(
vt

Huckleberry Josh
09-22-2001, 06:04 PM
War SUCKS ! I'm turning 18 in about 4 months . So far , Bush has decided not to have a draft ,but if he decides to have a draft in a few years It's so long SirSteves guide hello war . Man that sucks . I wish I were a Jedi Knight right about now .

vulcantouch
10-23-2001, 12:37 PM
. . .i found a nice succinct primer (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/cr/cda/article_print/1,1250,DRMN_86_856536,00.html) :)

LTBasker
10-23-2001, 10:10 PM
We're the Evil Empire to them...and yet we couldn't of cared less about that piece of sand trap before now. They were just...there... Grass hasn't evolved there yet! :p

JediTricks
10-24-2001, 12:35 AM
You ever feel like we're tap-dancing on a landmine? These days, it feels like we've taken 10 years of tap lessons on that landmine.

jeddah
10-24-2001, 04:54 AM
I agree JT, this is a Bad Thing

jeddah

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
10-26-2001, 11:02 PM
I guess you can call this a real war now; We've apparently bombed the strategically important targets of a hospital, and a red cross building in Afghanastan. I guess some of these precision guided bombs still have a few glitches in them.

I think if the U.S. wants to achieve its goals, they should target next a couple of schools, mosques, the old folks home and the orphanage.

SWAFMAN
10-27-2001, 06:47 AM
LBC, I agree there is nothing good about civilians being killed, not to mention bombs hitting hospitals or the like. I make no excuses for that, and share every reasonable person's horror and sadness at the news of these deaths.

We're now starting to hear reports that some military forces loyal to the Taliban are moving into the civilian populated urban areas.

This will force the Western Coalition to either target civilian locations for aerial bombing (because the enemy has, despicably, made these locations into military targets), or we must send in ground troops in an attempt to more selectively search and destroy the enemy fighters.

Either course is a lose/lose proposition for the Coalition.

Even the most accurate and precise aerial strikes on urban targets would certainly kill hundreds - maybe thousands of innocents.

If we invade Afghanistan with ground troops, the list of bad things that could (would!!!) happen is a mile long.

Good Ol' Osama-lama-ding-dang and his Taliban puppets really played that move wisely. At least if you can accept that soldiers hiding behind innocent women's skirts could ever be a wise move.

So, LBC for the sake of argument, let's say you do not have the option to just quit and go home - that you must take some action to eliminate (or render totally force-neutral) the loyal Taliban troops who have infused into the civilian urban areas. These are soldiers and significant stores of arms and munitions. They have located in places like middle floors of 5-story apartment buildings otherwise full of innocent people, a few classrooms in the center of schools full of kids, the sub-basements of hospitals. You get the picture. So, how do you remove the military threat with minimal collateral damage?
(yeah, I hate that term too, but it works in this context)

Remember, I'm just playing Devil's advocate (no offense, Baal). :D I have no stake in this debate other than being interested in hearing other people's thoughts.

LTBasker
10-27-2001, 09:32 AM
We had the technology to take out Suddam (sp?) and yet we didn't because he would always hide with innocent civilians... We shouldn't make the same mistake. Search for alternatives yes, but we can't just sit on our hands and allow them the chance to take over more places.

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
10-27-2001, 11:00 AM
I understand in military campaigns that civilians will ultimately be lost. I was implying that, with even our superior military technology which includes the best pin-point precision bombs and guided missles money can buy, we are still prone to hitting these few safe havens. I know these atrocities happen in every war, and if we could, we would avoid them at all cost.

It's the U.S. lead coalition versus the Taliban and the terrorists. Unfortunately civilians are caught in the middle of this. There is probably a substantial amount of people in Afghanastan who oppose the regime, but are powerless to challenge them. Many of them are destitute and live in squalor. They have no control of the situation. I agree with you Swaffy, it's unavoidable, a lose-lose situation. It's sad they'll have to pay the ultimate price because of the actions of their government.

jeddah
10-27-2001, 02:05 PM
The Saddam Hussein was not left alive because he hid with civilians, LT, more it was a case of better the devil you know(apologies to Baala, again) ;)

This from the Navy.

jeddah

Baal
10-29-2001, 05:16 PM
You know,
I may have whispered in a few ears, but that's it. This time, people have
done a good enough job of screwing things up on their own, all by
themselves,
without any help from me.
I'm sure you've noticed this world is in a downward spiral.
Everywhere
you look, someone is doing something screwed up to someone else.
People will never change, it's in your nature. You guys are worse
than me.
That "Fire and Brimstone" crap I used to throw around, long ago, was
nothing
compared to the real, gripping horrors you unleash upon yourselves. I was
around long before man, and I'll be around long after he's gone, but I have
to admit, You guys were "Death" on a cosmic scale.
The Devil

vulcantouch
10-31-2001, 10:17 PM
-sisko re his father, ds9's "homefront" :)
of course, by "man" i mean devil, and by "gumbo" i mean the human soul. and by "being", i of course meant "begin" (see prev post) :p
vt
np: dajae, "is it all over mah face" (smack dub)