View Full Version : Revenge of the Sith

05-13-2002, 02:40 PM
Ok. let's talk Sith.
First of all- "There can be only 2?" Was this always true? or was there a time when there was a whole bunch of them? If there were always only 2, I don't see how they could have been that big a problem, especially in the past when the Jedi were so numerous and prosperous. Anyway.
Let's talk about the Sith we do know. Vader was the coolest, and baddest. Palpatine makes a nice "evil Master" type, and even the toughest critics of TPM will grant you that Maul was was one bad mamma-jamma. I haven't seen AOTC yet, but this Dooku character looks kinda stuffy. I know I should wait to see it, I don't even know if he's going to be back for III.
But I want to take another look at Maul. Sure, he's dead, and he ain't coming back, Lucas has told us over and over. And after TPM, there was some debate as to whether he should come back or not. At the time I was all for his permanent retirement. But now that I think of it, part of what makes a good serial/comic/series is the return of a really great crowd pleasin' villian, over and over. Imagine the first screen shots of Vader in ESB or ROTJ. He'd get standing ovations. Maul was fun to watch, he didn't even need the lines he had. Maybe he and Vader could duke it out in III to see who's the baddest. Oh well.
Say, another question, Dooku is an old guy, what was he doing during TPM? And if he's a Sith, is he a newly initiated Sith, because he wasn't one of the 2 in TPM. Is this just some evil hobby he picked up after he retired? I'm terribly uniformed on the EU, maybe someone could help me out. Thanks

Jedi Clint
05-13-2002, 03:16 PM
At least a millenia before TPM the Sith were very numerous. The order self destructed, and the Jedi exterminated all but one of those that remained. This Sith Lord trained an apprentice, and then the apprentice trained an apprentice, etc. to avoid the self destruction of the order again.

The details of how and when Dooku became a Sith are not clear. He left the order. I would guess that he joined with Sidious after TPM.

Eternal Padawan
05-13-2002, 03:33 PM
Perhaps Sidious was attempting to lure Sifo-Dyas to become his new apprentice and something happened between Sifo-Dyas, Dooku, and Sidious that led Dooku to become the new Sith lord and Sifo to be killed...A tale for an EU story no doubt.

05-13-2002, 03:37 PM
I think the Jedi were the most numerous in TPM than at any other time in their history.

We already got one "crowd-pleasing" villian to make multiple appearances. Boba Fett was retroactively added to ANH, had his scenes enhanced in ROTJ and we are getting to see his origin in AOTC. So we don't need another "crowd-pleaser" taking away screen time from Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Dooku is involved in EP3 at this point, however anything can happen between now and when Ep3 starts shooting (Christopher Lee is in his 70s after all). Nothing about Ep3 will be finalized until just before it's release in 2005. As it has been with all SW films.

If you really want to know a lot of info about the history of the Sith and Jedi then read the Ep1 novelization.

05-14-2002, 07:43 AM
True enough. I think I'm just going to wait until I see it this weekend. I suppose it would make sense for Episode III to be lacking a main villian to make way for Vader to step up to the plate too.

Yoda Likes Golf
05-14-2002, 12:39 PM
I think Dooku is a former jedi who left and has now come back he isnt that bad a person and he hates the sith but has given up being a jedi,He is sort of a ROUGE jedi

05-14-2002, 12:43 PM
hey Yoda likes golf,
I'm sorry man I can't stop myself from doing this.It's not at your slipped fingers expense.
Rogue not rouge.I don't think Dooku is in drag any where in ep II.
lol Sorry guy I couldn't help myself.From one "typist" to another;)

Jedi Clint
05-14-2002, 12:51 PM
Dooku is a bad guy. Trust me.

05-14-2002, 12:52 PM
Would that be a Moulin Rouge Jedi?:D:D


From the way I see it, Dooku is a pretty evil guy. Little in the way of redemption there. He also seems to be playing both sides of the fence as Vader did. He asks Obi-Wan to join him to destroy the Sith; but reports to Sidious at the end of Ep2 that everything is going according to plan. Basically, I think Dooku has his own agenda and will make whatever alliances that seem convenient to suit his purposes.

Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Man....BigB! I thought about spoiling YLG, but then thought "Oh no....I really shouldn't." Then you come along and spoil away!

Ooops, my bad! I attempted to fix it with "spoiler" tags but alas I think it is too late for our friend YLG.:(

Jedi Clint
05-14-2002, 12:56 PM
Man....BigB! I thought about spoiling YLG, but then thought "Oh no....I really shouldn't." Then you come along and spoil away! ;)

Yoda Likes Golf
05-14-2002, 01:16 PM
Hi all
Thanks Drytana ,i think i spelt it wrong and would of probably contiually spelt it wrong if you had not of corrected it Thanx :-)

Jedi Clint
05-14-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Ooops, my bad! I attempted to fix it with "spoiler" tags but alas I think it is too late for our friend YLG.:(

No. No. I was only kidding with ya B. Hence the ;) This is the spoilers section and you need not worry about such things. My comment was more to poke fun at the effort I wasted in trying not to spoil YLG. Sorry. :(

05-14-2002, 01:43 PM
If Vader died at the end of ANH, it would not have been cool to see him come back. :)
I don't believe Dooku is trying to lure Obi-Wan to join him, I just think he's playing mind games with him. Can't wait to learn the truth! :)
I'm wondering if Anakin will take Dooku out pretty early in E3. Ewan's been talkin' 'bout a big fight with Hayden, that must take place toward the end of the film?

Yoda Likes Golf
05-14-2002, 02:06 PM
Thanx jedi clint for trying not spoil me :-) and this wont make sence but thankyou bigbarada for the spoiler as it has cleared up the dooku bit for me :-)
Thankyou All

05-14-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Yoda Likes Golf
and this wont make sence but thankyou bigbarada for the spoiler as it has cleared up the dooku bit for me :-)

No problem, if there is any other part of Ep2 that I can spoil for you just let me know and I will be happy to oblige.:)

05-14-2002, 05:38 PM
I always thought that Sifo-Dyas, Sidious, and Palpatine were the same guy.

Jedi Clint
05-14-2002, 05:42 PM

As for Sifo-Dyas:

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"

It is clear that he was a Jedi Master. He was killed about the same time TPM happened......probably shortly before......maybe after. He is not Palpatine.

05-14-2002, 06:00 PM
No problem YLG.
I tought maybe you were a typist like me and constantly transposes letters.Sorry again.It just struck me funny

Sith Lord 0498
05-14-2002, 08:58 PM
Perhaps Palpatine is associated with Sifo-Dyas. I've been thinking about this lately, and I've come up with a possible explanation (although I'm sure it has holes all through it).

Perhaps Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi along the lines of Qui-Gon and Dooku in that he didn't always agree with the council and was prone to taking apprentices on his own. Perhaps Palpatine was his apprentice. Or maybe Sifo-Dyas was a Sith within the Jedi Order. Palpatine had to learn from somebody.

In either case, Palpatine may have just been using Sifo-Dyas to exploit his own Force abilities and then killed him once he was strong enough. As a final result (or final act of respect) toward his master, he corrupted the name and became Darth Sidious.


05-15-2002, 04:15 PM
Perhaps Sifo-Dyas is Darth Maul!

Jedi Clint
05-15-2002, 04:30 PM
No, he isn't.

05-19-2002, 05:37 PM
If Sifo dyas was killed before the events of TPM as it possibly seems he was, he could not have placed the order, therefore it seems obvious that someone was just posing as him. Perhaps Dooku "borrowed" the name, being still a Jedi at the time he would be privy to knowing who was or had been members of the Jedi Council........Using his pseudonym of Tyranus to hire Jango would also limit the chance that 2 & 2 could be put together & the Insidious plan exposed prematurely!

05-19-2002, 05:57 PM
I've heard that Episode III will be about betrayal. Is anyone watching Mace?

I don't trust him. He's Dooku's 'old friend' and very accomodating to Palpatine as well as suggests a course of action that Yoda does not feel is wise.

If the prophesy is true, and balance will be brought to the Force, then all the Jedi but 2 will be destroyed. If one Sith, Maul, is dead, than there seems to be an opening with a better chance at survival on the other side if you join with the Sith.

It would be just you and your master. The Prophesy only says that the Chosen One will restore balance - not what side he will fight on. (and he ends up fighting for both sides)

So Mace or Sifo-Dyas could have erased the Jedi records of Kamino and / or Mace could have impersonated Sifo-Dyas. He is constantly monitoring Yoda to find out what Yoda has learned. Is this in the line of duty or something else?

Mace also has effective control over Anakin, if you notice.

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 01:20 AM
I don't buy it. Too much "betrayal" going on in Episode III to force Mace into the mix. And Dooku's "old friend" seemed condescending to me....

If anything, Yoda's comment about Jedi being ''...to sure of themselves. Even the older, wiser ones..." could be referring to Mace and the other Jedi who place their roles as peacekeepers over their devotion to the study of the force. It is their downfall.

05-20-2002, 01:42 AM
I've started rethinking IF Mace will go bad. It doesn't affect the revenge of Boba Fett one way or the other, IF Boba kills Mace.

It could serve as a convenience if Mace is stalking the good guys when Boba interrupts.

Also could be why Mace is distracted enough to let a (then) 14 to 16 year old kid kill him.

If Mace is bad, he also could be seeking to eliminate Dooku if he can't destroy Sidious. That would make Mace # 2. But maybe he was looking to see if Dooku would first take him as an ally and it would be those two old friends, eliminating Sidious altogether. Dark Siders plot against each other all the time.

Thus Dooku might have been through with him and allowed the droids to attempt to kill Mace, and then negotiate the treaty with Mace as the other Jedi were held hostage.

Who knows. It could be written well either way. It will be what George decides it will be.

One thing to consider still: is 'the black guy' going bad gonna be interpretted as racist? Is Mace the 'token black Jedi?'

Believe it or not, I heard people in the theater that didn't know any better think Boba and Jango were Mexican. Than a review, by a Mexican-American reporter came out (in Michigan I think) that said Cloning Mexicans was making a racial statement - that it was the attack of the 'border jumpers.'

All this is ridiculous of course. Jango and Boba are played by Maori (spelling) actors and Mexicans don't have New Zealand accents. Furthermore, who cares? If you can sell newspapers or sell yourself as a controversial writer because you can play a race card, think about the disservice you do to your race (or your hobby interest if you are already a SW fan!)

Meanwhile, the whole race thing is that people want to see others that look like themselves being heros in the movie. If Mexican kids want to think their favorite Bounty Hunter is Mexican, that's great. More power to them! I'm serious that it's important to people to view their own background positively, of course.

But wait a minute. I'm white and I'm offended by Count Dooku. The fact that it is a human, white Jedi that turned bad is too much for me. And Anakin on top of that. Plus Obi-Wan is a liar. We all know that. So white males in SW are no good! I'm terribly offended. I'm going to call the KKK and the Neo-Nazi's and ask them to boycott the movie because this film doesn't portray white males politically correct!

So to take the reverse, if Mace goes bad - well he's a major role. Moreso than Capt. Panaka or Capt. Typho. Maybe about the same as Lando, who is ultimately involved in the galaxy's redemption from evil, but Lando is not a Jedi. So should the 'token black guy Jedi' always be a hero?

Or is it more? In my opinion, Sam Jackson is a great actor (and in SW considerably better in AOTC than in TPM, now that he got to shine). The character that acts as a co-council with Yoda could have gone to any human or alien Jedi, not necessarily even male. But Mr. Jackson is a total SW fan since he was a kid, and he can bring an awesome performance to the movie, as he did in AOTC.

So the question then gets back to the plot point. I don't think that a black actor plays the character has anything to do with the choices being made here. Mace will be whatever he is intended to be.

It could go 50-50 whether he stays a good guy, or goes Sith on us. However, he will forever be a target for Boba Fett so long as he breathes.

One last thing, Jackson said if his character died, he wanted to be taken out by Vader. Well, it's not up to him, but maybe even Jackson would reconsider now that this history with Boba Fett is set up for Master Windu.

To quote Threepio "I'm so confused!"

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 10:36 AM
I sincerely hope George doesn't sit in his office writing the third screenplay saying. " Now Mace is BLACK, so should I make him a good guy or a bad guy?" IF Mace is destined to be a traitor, then it was that way all the time, since before Samuel Jackson got the part. I don't think skin color has any bearing on George's decisions. He saw a talented actor and hired him.

But this is all moot because Mace doesn't "go bad". His involvement in the destruction of the Jedi will be much more unintentional, because of poor decisions he and the other Council members made. ( IE Training Anakin, Spying on the senate, etc..)

Darth Ovori
05-20-2002, 06:30 PM
Mace placed order for clone army under the name of Sifo-Dyas... ???

Mace already has a go at Jango in two incidents, maybe he was scared that Jango could reveal more about the dark side mystery...
And Mace had to put him out of action...

Dooku a Sith... Well his called Lord Tyranus not Darth Tyrunas...
Maybe the real sith Apprentice is still the making...
Could explain why Dooku did'nt kill Anakin...

Or we're all jumping the gun...