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View Full Version : What did you think of Attack Of The Clones?



SirSteve
05-14-2002, 12:20 PM
What did you think of Attack Of The Clones?

Discuss it here but please refrain from posting spoilers.

Darth Ovori
05-14-2002, 03:12 PM
I liked it, it was different...

Everyone Expects ANH replica...

But this is different... I saw it like an Adventure epic combined...

I gave it a 9/10... I'm taking 1 point off cause Anakin whined too match at one stage... brat... but then again sometimes brats do become mass-murderers... :D:D:D just joking...

PS, I loved Empire Strikes Back, Gladiator and Pearl Habour and did'nt like TPM... just an example of my tastes in movies...

Kernel
05-14-2002, 10:39 PM
I can't say; I haven't had the pleasure of seeing a sneak preview and I refuse to partake in the pirate copies on the internet. A TRUE SW fan would not screw Lucas like that (the pirating part, of course).

And to make a point which some may or may not like... to those who *****ed about EPI and who will be *****ing about EP2... George came up with the idea for SW... if he never made the movies, we would never be here. The story is created by HIM and turned into a movie for US. Not created by US and made into a movie by him.

So stop *****ing about how he 'screwed this and that up'. He never did nor will he screw anything up in the movies since all of it came from him in the first place.

He may have done things that some didn't like and I'm sure he will do things in EP2 that more won't like, but remember... most of us were 5 years old when we saw EP4 - if we saw it for the first time today, I doubt it would have the impact on us as it has having been with us from such a young age - an age where imagination rules and we don't have any inclination of how soem CG looks bad or the acting is bad.

BobaPhlegm
05-15-2002, 12:01 AM
I've used this thread to post my first forum post at SSG. I was very lucky and scored tickets to see AOTC on Saturday the 11th; one day before the official Midwest charity premiere!:) I want to give hope to the Star Wars fans out there who have read some poo-poo reviews of the new flick. As a fan since I saw the first movie at seven years of age, hopefully you can identify with my opinion better than some of the snob critics out there.
I have to say, this is the most fun I've had at a movie in my recent memory (OK, South Park, Bigger, Longer, and Un-Cut comes close). I dare to say, it is the best of the five movies so far. Empire may have it beat from a dialogue and plot point of view, but for everything we see a Star Wars movie for, this is the best!
The plusses:
1.) Visuals are fantastic from the opening shots on. Its a nice long scene of Padme's ship landing through the clouds of Coruscant, and it's beautiful. The Coruscant chase is breathtaking, and the battle of Geonosis will make you want a cigarette when its over.
2.) Palpatine's manipulations are sooooo evil.
3.) Jar Jar is not the comic relief any longer. He does serve the plot in a very important way, however.
4.) C-3PO and R2-D2 are now the comic relief again, as they should be. I never was a huge fan of threepio, but he had me cracking up in this one. He delivers two of the worst puns in movie history and I loved them! They were so out of place it was great!
5.) Padme is quite hot.
6.) Dexter Jettster is a great new character. Iwhish there was more of him.
7.) The clone factory is quite cool, as are the Kaminoians who run it.
8.) Daniel Logan does a great job as Boba Fett. Way better than any of the child actors in TPM. He has a wonderful blend of mischief and sullennes. I wanted more of him too.
9.) The moment when Anakin steps over that line into the dark side is great! You finally see the Darth in him. And the musicthat accompanies all this is wonderfully foreshadowing.
10.) Speaking of music, the score is way better than TPM (with the exception of "Duel Of The Fates", which rocks!)
11.) The arena battle and the subsequent battle of Geonosis is about the coolest thing ever put on film.
12.) Christopher Lee is great as Count Dooku. Wonderfully decieving and evil.
13.) Yoda Yoda Yoda Yoda Yoda Yoda Yoda. He is the star of this film. You may actually pass out from delight when you see him confront Dooku
14.) Even though I was naughty and read many spoilers, including a full plot synopsis. There were many surprises that we Star Wars fans will go nuts over.
The minusses:
1.) Some of the dialogue is hokey. Who cares?! Let's stop pretending the first trilogy was Shakespeare.
2.) There is one bad CG effect of Anakin falling off the back of a (I think) nuna on Naboo. And it does look bad.
3.) The love affair seems a little forced at times. I'm still not sure when it was that Padme crossed over into falling for Anakin. I guess I'll have to see it again:rolleyes:
4.) Anakin is a total brat, but isn't he supposed to be? Some may be bugged by his whining. Again, who cares?!

Overall, I'd give the first half of the film an 8 out of 10 and the second half a 10 out of ten. See this movie! Don't listen to the snobs who are judging this on the same criteria they would judge a Shakespeare In Love or Out Of Africa. This is one fun movie!

jedihunter25
05-15-2002, 03:10 AM
I voted loved it. I havn't seen the movie yet but I read the book and saw about ten minutes of it a Celebration II. Even though it's a day too early to make this decision, from what I read and seen from trailers and at Celebration II it is a great movie. In about a week or two people will be saying Spider Who?

Obehave Kenobi
05-15-2002, 06:34 AM
Oh you'd probably be surprised by how many people have already seen it. I have to admit I was a somewhat guilty party to the bootleg ( did not belong to me, but watched most of it nonetheless). But, seeing it the way it was intended has since been corrected. The best way I (and everyone else who saw it with me) can describe it is INTENSE. The first 30 minutes of EP2 put ALL of EP1 to shame. It is my second favorite film next to ESB. I do think the situation with C-3PO on Geonosis is a little over the top, however. That's my only complaint though. Go see this movie as soon as you can. You won't regret it.

Darth Ovori
05-15-2002, 10:07 AM
For the record, I wangled myself into a press viewing for reviewers...
I'm sure this is how some people have seen it early...

Battle Droid
05-15-2002, 02:12 PM
I haven't seen it, but still voted " Loved it!" cause I will love it.

I get to see it for free tomorrow! WOOHOO!

Darth Shinji
05-15-2002, 05:05 PM
I loved it!
I managed to see it 4 times before the premiere (I work for a theater that's getting 6 prints)
and with each time it got better!
Can't saw enough good things about it.
It does raise some interesting plot points for E3.

zeroplate
05-16-2002, 02:14 AM
CRAZY! unfortunately, i don't know how to express how excited I am at the results without resorting to a string of incoherent expletives. i will just say that if you thought Sam Jackson was tough as shaft, you ain't seen a thing!

brilliant return to form after phatom menace. couldn't be happier with it.

Jarrell
05-16-2002, 02:27 AM
Just got back from the midnight showing, it is 3:30 am est , and AOTC rocks! So much more plot than episode 1, its cool and eerie to see some of the darkness in Anakin. Thank God Lucas has made a comeback!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kernel
05-16-2002, 02:30 AM
Ok, I just saw it at the midnight show.

AMAZING.

I have NEVER been glued to every word or action of a movie as I have with E2... there were maybe 4 or 5 scenes I think could have used some work as far as CG and acting (see my earlier post) but as far as story and content go, it's one of the if not THE best SW movie in my opinion.

Cotasnoova
05-16-2002, 02:37 AM
How could anyone think this is not the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Tenric
05-16-2002, 03:12 AM
God I LOVED this movie. There were some problems with dialoge, and some things that didn't work quite well (i'm not going to ruin anything for anyone right now), but that last half of the movie I was breathless. I think this is one might become my new favorite....

2-1B
05-16-2002, 03:30 AM
I voted "loved it" because I thought 90% of it was so fun. And at times painful. It's my opinion that the only "whining" relating to Anakin is that of the people who are put off by Hayden's performance. :D I really felt bad for the character at times, and I don't want him to turn to the darkside. :(
Obi-Wan was so teriffic, I could have watched him for 2 hours alone.
Padme was good.
I've only seen it once, and so far all that bugged me was the Threepio humor. Well, not bugged but :rolleyes:

Sith Worm
05-16-2002, 03:40 AM
Loved it this is what Star Wars is all about I can't wait for episode III Haden is awsome and Yoda is my all time hero forever! You should have see the reaction of the crowd when his shadow and the clank of that cane came around the corner, this was to awsome I will see this movie again and again this is everything episode I should have been...

derek
05-16-2002, 04:00 AM
i saw episode 1 23 times in the theatre. i just saw episode 2, and i really don't care if i see it again. i was very disapointed.

before this film came out, i was worried about a few things, like the romance between anakin and padme, an 80 year old man fighting 2 young jedi, and a CG yoda flying around like neo from the matrix.

well, the romance between anakin and padme was a joke. padme is supposed to be an intelligent person, but anakin is throwing psycho vibes at her almost the moment he meets her.

the saber duels just plain sucked. they sucked because what is an 80 year old man supposed to do? not much, so lucas just has him quickly dispose of anakin and obi-wan. the episode 1 obi wan would of easily whipped dooku's ***.

and anakin is supposed to be the most gifted jedi ever? let's see, he got his *** kicked in episode 2, and will get sliced and diced big time in the next film, and then get beat by a jedi school dropout 20 years later. some chosen one!

and yoda, a green goblin who has trouble WALKING is supposed to be believable against dooku? yoda was moving so fast that he should of cut dooku's legs off. and dooku had the perfect chance to kill yoda when he dropped the pillar on anakin and obi-wan.

and last but not least, the character of jango fett was a waste. the obi-wan/jango fight was way too short, and mace easily disposed of jango, lending further truth to what a loser boba fett will grow up to be.

BobaVette
05-16-2002, 04:38 AM
I just got back from the midnight showing of Ep. 2 and have to say it was the best or so close it is hard to tell. I have to see it a few more times before one can be sure. But one thing is fr sure YODA IS THE MASTER. And to those whom bashed the movie all that I have to say to you is that you should not post here because Lucas got close to the same feeling and emotion. And all of this about an 80 year old man fighting and not looking convincing is bull. I am sorry did you forget all of the other movies to date. I seem to remember "Old Ben" "The Emporor" "Darth Vader" all seem to be old guys and there fights were good enough. But for this movie I thought the Yoda vs. Dooku was not only convicing but the best jedi fight to date. I just hope the Lucas continues to keep the emotion and action in the next and unfortunatly the last Episode as good as this. And "NO STINKING EWOKS".

2-1B
05-16-2002, 05:14 AM
Whoa whoa whoa, a longtime fella like derek shouldn't post here? :confused: :mad:

derek, I agree with you about "loser Boba :D" but look forward to disagreeing with you in detail about many other things. :)

Tycho
05-16-2002, 05:36 AM
Everyone play nicely with each other... :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, I loved this movie!!! God, AOTC rocked!

However, I was very objective about some things and I'll put some reality checks in here.

I told someone who hadn't seen it to TOLERATE it for the 1st half hour. Oh the storyline is good, the sets and effects look great, but the dialogue is terrible and the actors should have 1) better lines written for them (the major fault being the 1st part on Coruscant's script), 2) the actors should have had a hands on director - do you realize what Paul Verhoven could have gotten out of his actors? 3) Typho should have been directed or Re-cast, Ewan could have made a better effort in the original Coruscant scenes like the elevator conversation (he is awesome later), and Natalie could have acted like she cared in the early scenes (save for when Corde died - she was good there but Typho sort of ruined her scenes - more his lines than his acting there.


The effects and the speeder chase and all the action was awesome. The assasin bugs were totally gross and great effects, but the dialogue there fell flat. Then it gets better.

Anakin's scenes with Natalie from the freighter through Naboo, Tatooine, and Geonosis were awesome. Save for the first kiss. There was no reason for Padme to make that transition. She was resisting him all this time, then he leans close to her. What did she think he was going to do? The cutting out of her visit with her family and her mother and sisters hinting that Anakin might be right for her, plus his time with her father all led into that. It shouldn't have been cut! Lucas a master editor? What? When?

The big surprise was Hayden. He did a great job! Probably the best in the whole film (save for Yoda). Ewan's scene with Jango Fett in his apartment was also very intense! There you got it - the feel that this was Star Wars. Now I can't say enough good things about this film after I got the bad off my chest. I'll save some of that for a later post so people can comment on what everyone else has said here.

But I'll be back!

2-1B
05-16-2002, 05:44 AM
Paul Verhoven? :D
I could have gone for the Amidala family too. Instead we are lead to believe in Anakin's charisma.
Kouhouns were awesome! Well, not really in the sense that they are pretty pokey in doing their work.

mightywhelk
05-16-2002, 06:42 AM
It's great to see the saga back on track with an excellent film again. I loved every minute of it. It was good to see some interesting camerawork during the final battle, zooming in to the occupants of the gunships. Good acting all round, just a shame about the dialogue in places but that has never been a stong point in any of the films. I'm off to see it again tonight to see what I missed first time round!

princesselisa
05-16-2002, 10:51 AM
I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing like waiting in line for like four hours to see an awesome Star Wars movie! I was kinda bummed though cuz only one guy showed up dressed like anakin skywalker. BUT before hte movie started he fought with his lightsaber against a kid with a sith lightsaber ;)

Anyway once the movie started, I was rivited, it was really really really good but I was ticked off it took padme so long to say "I love you anakin" yeah two hours into the movie and she finally gets that newsflash...but hey at least we got to see Yoda and his lightsabor fight, VERY Sweet ;)

How did everybody else's midnight premire go? Mine was a total blast...........even if I did have to open the computer lab at six thirty the next morning :)

stillakid
05-16-2002, 11:16 AM
Just woke up. Midnite show and all...


Anyway, I need some more time to let it all sink in plus another viewing or so, but my initial impressions are...

On the whole, it was pretty awesome. Ironically, some of it's greatest strengths also turned out to bite it in the behind.

The visuals were stunning. Fantastic new production design at every turn. My favorite new element was the Kamino aliens. Very very cool. But the flip side to all of this was that there was almost too much going on. I left the theater feeling assaulted. It is possible to have too much of a good thing, and AOTC went over the line just a hair. Don't get me wrong, seeing the intricate details of Coruscant and being overwhelmed by the final battle images are entirely necessary for the film, but two hours of that kind of detail is exhausting...

Which leads to the second, very related point concerning the plot. Scattered is the first word that pops into mind. This film took us everywhere! This wasn't a nice neat package as we've come to expect from George. This is good and bad. We needed to go to all of these places I suppose, but the structure of the plot darted here and there, back and forth at an almost dizzying pace...bad word choice. There was no true pacing. Very disjointed, sometimes abrupt transitions...

Which leads to the Anakin-story. The first 2/3 of the film are essentially Anakin whining about life not being fair or something. In one of the many :rolleyes: whining scenes he has with Padme, he just blurts out "It's not fair, Obi Wan's holding me back." Not a bad line, but it had absolutely nothing to do with whatever they had just been talking about. It's like George had to get that line in there somewhere and had to drop it in before the "real story" caught up with Anakin...

Which is what happened. Over here, in this corner, we see Anakin whining incessently, then we jump over here to see the actual plot unfold. Back and forth like that over and over for, what, an hour or so? Til finally, Padme and Anakin decide (to use Padme's words) to join the real world and join the plot.

In the end the Anakin-whining-scenes weren't so bad on their own (pacing was lagging, slow at times, redundant eventually), and the actual plot of the story was interesting enough to keep you guessing, but the two combined was a little disjointed. There was no true flow created.

However, Great Taste, less Filling!

No mention of Midichlorians. whew.

I never minded Jar Jar that much, but his character was
noticably dialed down and diminished.

The assasination attempt off the top was cool.

I loved the chase through Coruscant. Blade Runner meets The
Fifth Element.

As I mentioned, the Kamino world and aliens were very cool.

The Fett thing? I still think it's lame to "connect" the OT with the
Prequels using the previously mysterious bounty hunter to do
it, but once you get past that, it was handled fairly well. That
element of the story didn't have to be with a guy in a Fett
costume, plus it doesn't jive with what we were previously
told about the armor itself (being from a Mandalorian army),
but EP III is still on it's way. The only reason they used
the "Fett thing" is to try to please some non-existent fan
desire to see more of Fett in the movies. Whatever.

The final battle was awesome. Go Yoda! It looked a little silly
for a couple moments, but it worked somehow.

Obi Wan: This is the guy that Ep I didn't properly develop
or exploit. Ewan seemed to be acting with his hands tied
around his back through TPM, but in AOTC, he was much
looser, more casual. His character really set a nice relaxed
tone. I was very pleased with that character this time. If only
Qui Gon wouldn't have been invented and Obi Wan would
have done his own history in the first place, TPM might've
been a very very different and likable film.

C-3PO: One too many "ha ha" jokes from him. As a whole,
there were just too many "nudge nudge wink wink" jokes
throughout. A couple of them is fine, but just like TPM, the
obvious foreshadowing went overboard by a bit. Humor is
one thing, obviously trying to go for the easy laugh is another.

Those are the main things that stick in my head from last night. I didn't understand the opening scrawl, though. There's nothing anywhere that explains why there is a separatist movement. Anyone? The entire plot is based on this notion that the Federation is splitting apart yet no mention whatsoever about why.

Again, very enjoyable, but with some problems here and there, but not enough to make it a bad movie by any means. Hope you enjoy it! Can't wait for Episode III!

DarthBrandon
05-16-2002, 12:24 PM
Just seen the midnight show last night.
It was AWWWSOME, now eveyone is going to be a critic on the film like myself.
What i liked and disliked: Story was great but the lines in some scenes were a little cheesey. Jango good character short lived, by
Mace's excellent Jedi skills, did you see him just stand there waiting for Jango to make his move and then take him out with
two swift moves (excellent smithers). Anakin agreed he was a little whiny,but what do we expect from a short fused apprentice.
I thought Dooku was pretty cool and I expected him to take out
Anakin and Obi real swift like because he was far more advanced
in the force (Dark side) than they were. Also Anakin is supposed to be the one who brings balance to the force, but he is clearly not the chosen one, I believe that to be Luke.
Now on to Yoda, only one thing to say he kicked some serious ****** ***. Truly a master of the force.
I really did enjoy all the scenes but one, and it is at the end when
the clones (thousands of them) and the earlier models of Star Destoyers were leaving. Only one word Way to CGI. I cannot pick apart any other parts in the film because I am a true fan and I enjoy Sci-Fi (Star Wars) way too much to say I wish it was this I wish it was that, but it is not our vision it is George's. It will never be another Star Wars , Empire, Rotj it's the story of Vader the rise of the Empire and the fall of the Jedi Order. Anyone expecting this to be like the old trilogy is gravely mistaken (line from ROTJ).
Out of ten (9) 2nd favorite movie in series Empire is first.
Going to see it again tonight with the wife instead of the fella's.

CaptainSolo1138
05-16-2002, 12:25 PM
HOLY CRAP!!!!! AOTC beat all expectations I had. Hayden Christensen was so awesome as Ani. I had doubts about his whining in the trailers, but when you see it in the context of the whole movie, it's actually powerful. Natalie Portman was just as good. Did anyone else see the three YT-1300 freighters on Naboo?! As much as I didn't want too, I read some pretty major spoilers for this movie, but never heard anything about "The Ultimate Weapon"!!!! How sweet was that when Dooku turned that hologram on?! There was a collective *GASP* in the theatre. And the theatre went nuts with laughter when Obi-Wan told Ani, "You'll be the death of me". The speeder chase was cool (though I can already see the Episode II: Speeder video game coming out :rolleyes: ). I was surprised how good (most) of the CG looked. The only part that looked a bit off was Ani riding that thing on Naboo. And I'm not the first one and certainly not the last to say that 3PO's wit was a bit much. I was OK with everything he said til he got on the arena floor. "What a drag"?! "I'm beside myself"?? Mr. Lucas should've left that stuff in the Droids cartoon. But it's minor flaws aren't gonna be enough to keep me from seeing it over and over and over again. If I saw TPM 16 times in the theatre, I can only imagine how many more times I'll see this!!!!! And I'm torn over my favorite line in the movie. It's either Mace saying "This party's over." or Obi-Wan's "Well, that's what I came for!" I thought Ewan delivered that line great!! Well, I'm off to see it again!!!!

SirSteve
05-16-2002, 01:29 PM
Wow! Speechless!! I was a lucky one and got to see it in DLP (digital format) and even though the movie was great, seeing it crystal clear and sounding awesome REALLY took my movie experience to the next level! Yoda was just bad @ss!

Salacious
05-16-2002, 01:30 PM
Outstanding movie. Saw it twice; second time was on the digital projector and man does it look great.
It had everything a true Star Wars fan would love and more. Yoda was incredible. C-3PO was perfect comic relief as he was in the originals. And thanks to Lucas and Gurland for casting Christopher Lee in this movie. He was the perfect villain.
Visually outstanding. I can't wait to see it again. This one was for the fans.

sunblind
05-16-2002, 01:37 PM
Now this is Star Wars.

Lord Malakite
05-16-2002, 01:52 PM
I bet everyone who has been reading my posts about the movie in the spoilers section since last week when I saw it know how I voted. :D

Darth Grifter
05-16-2002, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I was one of the lucky at a midnight showing across America last night. I drove an hour and a half :stupid:to see AOTC and it was worth every minute of it!!!
To see the story and to hear all of the foreknown foreshadowing for later events was probably the highlight of the whole film. At the same time there was sooooo much that it was kind of overwhelming (good tactic on Lucas' part because now I'll have to see it 10 times instead of 9:D )...
The visuals and the almost entirely CG everything were amazing! From the speeder chase to the fly throughs to the battle sequences...AMAZING!!!:eek:
YODA (enough said)!!!
There was so much kickin' stuff in the movie that it doesn't begin to be effected by the forced dialogue or the occassional bad actor. Lucas has outdone himself in this attempt to PLEASE US -- THE FANS -- in this movie. Cult favorite characters are given larger roles, cameos, and Lucas is toying with what he thinks that we want. AND HE DID AWESOME!!! I think what the critics need to realize is that this movie is created from one man's mind, a genius of storywriting and character development. He pioneered the new movement in Hollywood to attempt prequel stories, he has defined Sci-Fi / Fantasy as a completely legitamate artform in the midst of a Hollywood that seems to be grasping for the next Brittney Mandy N'Spears movie blockbuster. I give 100 Thumbs up to George for sticking to the guns of a great storyline that we all LOVE and that we all continue to go back for!!!

To all who wanted for more storyline...READ THE SALVATORE BOOK...the background information that you can glean from that text will help to fill in the gaps...

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!! MUST SEE @ Least 10 TIMES!!! SUPPORT LUCAS AND THE CAUSE!!!

lobster-man
05-16-2002, 02:04 PM
I would have given this movie 10 out of ten if it weren't for the fact that the dialogue seems strained at times... :crazed: It seems that everyone caught whatever Amidala had when she was queen of Naboo. The acting was sometimes not up to calibur... with the exceptions of Christopher Lee and Samual L. Jackson, Both of whom performed honorably and flawlessly! The young Boba was well portraid as well. C-3PO had way too many "puns" in one scene of the film that became a little un-nerving. The CGI imaging seemed too obvious...particularly Anakin's "bull" riding...The Droid Factory sequnce and Yoda's attack on the films Villains saved this movie in My eyes .... the rest of the film just seemed like the Blah, Blah, Blah from TPM all over again! I feel that this did not even come close to touching the original trilogy in any catagory! :(

pthfnder89
05-16-2002, 02:20 PM
Well, after Derek I guess I'm the second voice of desent here. I had big problems with it.

Mostly though, I had the same feelings as someone else who posted in the forums the other day; The first hour totally, utterly, and completely FAILED to make me care one way or another about any of the characters.

After a decent first 5 minutes I tried and tried to develop any sort of emotional attachment to somebody, but for me everything felt.... flat. That's the best word I can use to describe it. The direction I think is mostly to blame. But also (and this is a problem that plagued TPM also) there's just too much stuff on screen at any given time.

I know that George Lucas can create a living breathing universe without constantly having an insect, droid, ship, animal, or stunning vista in the background. I know because he's done it before, as have other directors. I love everything about the sets and art design but I honestly think that the movie would have seemed much more real if it had been simplified, only using the huge sprawling vistas for establishing shots, and big scenes like the final battle.

The funny thing is, I can pin point EXACTLY where I started to care about the characters. (avoiding spoilers here) When Anakin returns after exacting his revenge, all of a sudden everyones performance came alive! It's was like the lights came on I could see again. And literally from that second on, I was on the edge of my seat all the way through the final credits.

So basically, I thought the entire first hour was an excercise in how NOT to make a movie, but if you can stomach it (and hopefully I can because I really want to see the end several more times) then the last hour will be one of the most thrilling rides you get this summer, out of any movie. So I voted "It's Ok", because I just don't see why the first half should be that bad, when the second is soooo darn good...

Daye Azur-Jamin
05-16-2002, 03:01 PM
yeah the scene on tatooine after anakin returns is creepy...you can almost see darth vader by the way his costume is in the shadows...i loved it all the way...no problems

bigbarada
05-16-2002, 03:16 PM
Loved it! I now have a new favorite Star Wars film.

AOTC is what I've always imagined a Star Wars film should be like. Visually stunning, humorous and action packed.

The strengths:
Anakin - excellent job all around by Hayden.
Yoda - awesome CG, awesome fightscene, THE Jedi Master!
Threepio - had some of the funniest scenes in the movie
The Geonosis battle - the most amazing thing ever to grace a movie screen!!

The weaknesses:
let's see......hmmmm....... okay, NOTHING!

Quite simply the most amazing Star Wars film I have ever seen!:cool:

mark2d2
05-16-2002, 03:19 PM
Okay, I can understand Derek having some problems with the film --- but how then can he hold TPM is such high esteem? That film totally sucked. I can't even bring myself to watch it on the DVD all the way through.

Why are some people so anti old people? I don't get it. Catch you in thirty or so years, Derek . . . :)

But back to the subject at hand ---- I thought ATOC was pretty spectular. In fact, I was pretty much blown away. Sure, there were some problems, but there was so much to like.

Kamino. Kamino. Kamino! The film is all about Kamino! Loved everything about that planet. Especially Obiwan's dazed and confused but still pretending to know what's going on attitude.

C3-P0 is back with a vengeance!

JarJar is shall we say . . . contained.

Things I didn't like . . . some (but surprisingly not much!) dialogue. Dexter and his Diner. (Hey, I love the 1950s, but not in Star Wars Please!) R2's "increased mobility" looks pretty cool --- but where is this capability in thirty or so years? (The EU expired warranty is not doing it for me, Folks!"

But still, a steller return to form. Bravo, Lucas! Bravo!.

In fact, ATOC is easily my third favorite SW film. And I don't mean this in a snidely backhanded compliment way, either. I genuinely love this film. It's just that Empire and A New Hope can't be beat in my book. The same cannot be said for Return of the Jedi. Yep, ATOC easily bumps it down a notch into the fourth slot. Something I NEVER-IN-A-MILLION-YEARS! expected it to do.

Hmmmmm, you know what? I think I may just head on out back to the theatre now. Really! Sorry! Gotta Go!

Taichi
05-16-2002, 03:55 PM
It never slowed down, and kept me breathless from the opening shot of Padme's ship landing, clear through to the final credits.....

the second half is definitely great, staggering.....

George, the magic is BACK!!!!

don't slow down, and keep the surprises happening.....keep the formula for episode III and we'll be there ready, willing, and able!!!!

sullen
05-16-2002, 03:55 PM
I saw a Midnight showing last night and was throughly impressed. Of all of the things I was disappointed in I would say the recycling of sounds from TPM was the most obvious. One particular space scene was full of reused sounds. I even heard sounds that were in the original trilogy being used such as a certain persons blaster sounding like a Tie-Fighter gun! I felt Hayden's performance was excellent and it really leaves a lot open for the next movie which will have to be really crammed to get everything set straight to make a proper segway to transition Anakin to the Dark Side.

Battle Droid
05-16-2002, 03:57 PM
It was AWESOME truely awesome, though there's just so much to take in on the first viewing, that it can't be done with one viewing.

Jangu Fett
05-16-2002, 04:17 PM
That was truly a awesome movie. All of it was great, well all the parts without Jar Jar. I still found him anoying, but other then that a great movie. Even my wife who is not much of a SW fan loved it.

Starfig873
05-16-2002, 04:17 PM
Loved it. It was an amazing movie. :) What else do I have to say?

BUT I did feel that the first part (everything before the instant Anakin slices up them critters in Padme's room) was kinda bad. But all in all, I think this is a great, super movie.

Tycho
05-16-2002, 04:24 PM
STILLAKID:

1) the details in all the visuals won't be so overwhelming after we've seen it a few times. Then there will always be something new to look for, to watch out for, etc. That part is cool considering the repeat viewing fans will be doing. In the Senate scene for example, I saw Aqualish, but I knew to look for other interesting add-ins. Didn't see them, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. It'll take a lot of viewings.

As to the bar characters, I did see women in thongs. I can't wait for the Thong Threesome Cinema Scene action figure pack! That's better than aliens. :D

2) I agree with you that some of the cuts were strange: Obi-Wan seeing the threat that all the clones marching on Kamino represented, and the music builds up to that, and then we cut to Anakin and Amidala's picnic in the field. Couldn't that cut have come after a gentler or more subtle scene like Obi-Wan's transmission from Kamino to Coruscant. Looking at the instruments of armageddon and then stopping to smell the flowers in the next shot was an interesting, if not BAD choice of cutting. That or maybe the technical term is the pacing was wierd.

3) Between Anakin whining "it's not fair" and what you call 'the real story,' of course we disagree. Let's use an analogy though. Do you pay taxes? Do you like that? Do you think the government spends your money wisely? OK - so you've whined. Now, have you run for United States Congress? California State legislature? Tried to overthrow the Federal Government lately? OK. So there is life. You are married, fell in love prior to that I'd guess, etc. Someday you still could be a United States Congressman and fight taxations etc. But your life goes on. For argument's sake, let's say you become President and declare a dictatorship with an army of IRS agents. You still previously fell in love, married, had a child, whined about taxes, did your "padawan years" as a Congressman, etc. So in other words, we have our day-to-day lives and things "that all seem such a long way from here." So in real life, and with some time, we all can "take our first step into a larger world." But in the meantime, Anakin's life goes on. He has a girlfriend, a mother and a step-family. All this like a lot of us. Things happen to him, his mother's 'murdered,' - a victim of a society he cannot control. He starts to change and want to take control of that larger world to try and make a difference in his smaller one. This involves him in a family, and then an Empire! This is excellent character development and I think Anakin was my favorite character in this movie!

4) I agree. Anakin's whining was not over-the-top and it was appropriate (like son, like father) and Hayden did so good in this role it was amazing! He outshown Ewan McGreggor in my opinion!

5) Midichlorians? Are they or aren't they ever going to be important again?

6) Qui-Gon having stolen Obi-Wan's history? Not at all. We see the connection going full circle with Dooku having been Qui-Gon's master. It made him more of a threat. The scene when Obi-Wan was captured was awesome (I mean the part of his dialogue with Dooku!)

7) The Fett thing? I liked it! Boba Fett became an interesting secondary character. And I (as a Han Solo fan since the 70's) never liked Fett and never subscribed to the fanatic fandom around him. Jango was great however, and Boba's character just made a major leap into the interesting category. He outshown Watto a bit in this one. Nice job Daniel Logan and Temura Morrison!

The rain fight was shorter than I thought it would be, but it rocked. The asteroids and the ship chase was even better! That was intense! Wow!

7) I liked C-3PO. This was one of his better films. Better than TPM and ROTJ for his character.

8) Agreed on the Opening scroll. They didn't explain the Separatist movement that well, and YES I did get that from the book and background stuff I read. But Stillakid's right, that should have been explained a little better in the movie. The Trial scene that was cut from the movie (Padme's and Anakin's trial for espionage on Geonosis) should have been left in. It would have accomplished that - be it late in the film (after the opening titles) or whatever, but oh well.

9) Can't wait for Episode III? I don't want it to be all over. I can't wait to watch Attack of the Clones again. I have tickets in 4 hours from now, so I better get my butt back in line!

timtheall
05-16-2002, 04:42 PM
Now that I've seen it twice I think I know how I feel about Attack of the Clones. I was skeptical after my fist viewing at midnight. I don't know if I was sunburnt and tired from line but I felt a little ripped off. (and confused. But it wasn't hard to rationalize certain emotive bursts well as other suprises)
Over all I was utterly blown away. The love story really got to me.
It's epic. To see the Galactic Empire in it's infancy is incredible. The design is beautiful and the story is rich. It's a huge movie and an incredibly human one.
I'm going to play with my toys now.

Beast
05-16-2002, 04:51 PM
I'm still shaking with excitement, and I walked out of the theater 3 hours ago. Quite Possibly could top the list of my favorite chapter in the Saga. I dunno, have to see in more times before I can decide. But no matter what, it was wonderful. Seeing the lines of dalogue that seemed bad in the trailers, in the finished context of the movie, they worked fine. I hope the DVD replaces at least the Jedi Archives scene, and the Trial On Geonosis scene. It's a good year for Star Wars fans....to quote young Ani...."Yipee!"

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Battle Droid
05-16-2002, 04:57 PM
It's my favorite of the 5 films so far!

Darth-AWT
05-16-2002, 05:19 PM
Outstanding. I'm still in shock. I read the book, and read spoilers all the time, but nothing could have prepared me for Ep2.
GL has outdone himself again.

DarthBrandon
05-16-2002, 05:27 PM
Just back from second showing with the wife, have to say one thing AWWWSOME again.The wife isn't a big fan like me but she really seemed to enjoy this particular Episode.

Good job George, can't wait till Episode 3.

Mo Bawa
05-16-2002, 05:38 PM
I LOVED IT!!!! I was excited, shocked and a little disturbed by how far Anakin goes.

It is the darkest (so far) of all the films. Empire is my favorite and this one ranks in at number 2. This was indeed a Star Wars movie and begins to put everything into a new perspective. A+

Battle Droid
05-16-2002, 05:42 PM
I can't wait to see how they out due AOTC with Ep III! If they can that is. :D ;)

bigpimpjones
05-16-2002, 06:41 PM
This is my first post here, and I'm pleased that it's to say the movie brought insane amounts of funk, it was excellent.
Like other posters, I thought the first half was slow, and my one complaint was the whole rolling in the fields stuff between Amidala and Anakin, but the last half of the film was so amazing, I can let that go for sure. It just kept getting better and better! Sam L. Jackson got it done, and the Yoda / Dooku battle will get me back to the theatre MANY more times.

master jedi
05-16-2002, 09:13 PM
Well, I saw AotC 3 times today(That includes the midnight showing.) so I must have loved it.

stillakid
05-16-2002, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
STILLAKID:
1) the details in all the visuals won't be so overwhelming after we've seen it a few times. Then there will always be something new to look for, to watch out for, etc. That part is cool considering the repeat viewing fans will be doing. In the Senate scene for example, I saw Aqualish, but I knew to look for other interesting add-ins. Didn't see them, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. It'll take a lot of viewings.

I'll have to get back to you on that. Time will tell. ;)



Originally posted by Tycho

As to the bar characters, I did see women in thongs. I can't wait for the Thong Threesome Cinema Scene action figure pack! That's better than aliens. :D

I second that motion.


Originally posted by Tycho

2) I agree with you that some of the cuts were strange: Obi-Wan seeing the threat that all the clones marching on Kamino represented, and the music builds up to that, and then we cut to Anakin and Amidala's picnic in the field. Couldn't that cut have come after a gentler or more subtle scene like Obi-Wan's transmission from Kamino to Coruscant. Looking at the instruments of armageddon and then stopping to smell the flowers in the next shot was an interesting, if not BAD choice of cutting. That or maybe the technical term is the pacing was wierd.

This issue and the next below are one in the same for me...


Originally posted by Tycho

3) Between Anakin whining "it's not fair" and what you call 'the real story,' of course we disagree. Let's use an analogy though. Do you pay taxes? Do you like that? Do you think the government spends your money wisely? OK - so you've whined. Now, have you run for United States Congress? California State legislature? Tried to overthrow the Federal Government lately? OK. So there is life. You are married, fell in love prior to that I'd guess, etc. Someday you still could be a United States Congressman and fight taxations etc. But your life goes on. For argument's sake, let's say you become President and declare a dictatorship with an army of IRS agents. You still previously fell in love, married, had a child, whined about taxes, did your "padawan years" as a Congressman, etc. So in other words, we have our day-to-day lives and things "that all seem such a long way from here." So in real life, and with some time, we all can "take our first step into a larger world." But in the meantime, Anakin's life goes on. He has a girlfriend, a mother and a step-family. All this like a lot of us. Things happen to him, his mother's 'murdered,' - a victim of a society he cannot control. He starts to change and want to take control of that larger world to try and make a difference in his smaller one. This involves him in a family, and then an Empire! This is excellent character development and I think Anakin was my favorite character in this movie!


I understand that he's going through some internal torment and all, and that the two of them had to be put in a situation where they would be alone in order for their love to blossom, and I don't have any trouble with that. It was the jarring juxtaposition of those sequences coupled awkwardly with the quickly evolving mystery involving Obi Wan that didn't work so smoothly. Perhaps there could have been a way to put our two love birds together in the midst of the "real" plot line, the way Han and Leia were thrown together in Empire. The Empire sequences were an intergral part of the overall plot...not something separated from the rest of the film. That's what I'm getting at.



Originally posted by Tycho

4) I agree. Anakin's whining was not over-the-top and it was appropriate (like son, like father) and Hayden did so good in this role it was amazing! He outshown Ewan McGreggor in my opinion!


I think that some of the dialogue went too far over the soap-opera line. A lot more of his than her's, but a few times, I began to wonder if perhaps he was just bi-polar and not really "distraught" with love or whatever. I'll blame that on the script.



Originally posted by Tycho

5) Midichlorians? Are they or aren't they ever going to be important again?

Not if he listened to me. ;)



Originally posted by Tycho

6) Qui-Gon having stolen Obi-Wan's history? Not at all. We see the connection going full circle with Dooku having been Qui-Gon's master. It made him more of a threat. The scene when Obi-Wan was captured was awesome (I mean the part of his dialogue with Dooku!)

I have to watch it again and catch all of that dialogue. Qui Gon still took Obi Wan's history, and there was no reason for him to be in the saga, but the AOTC bandaid on the flub may have bridged it adequately. I'll have to review it again.



Originally posted by Tycho

7) The Fett thing? I liked it! Boba Fett became an interesting secondary character. And I (as a Han Solo fan since the 70's) never liked Fett and never subscribed to the fanatic fandom around him. Jango was great however, and Boba's character just made a major leap into the interesting category. He outshown Watto a bit in this one. Nice job Daniel Logan and Temura Morrison!

Like I said, it wasn't as bad as I envisioned it, but still that element of the story could have been filled by any random alien entity. Making it be part of the Fett legacy kind of cheapened the mysterious Boba Fett that we saw appear in ESB who appeared out of the woodwork. Now, he's like the wacky-neighbor who gets his own sitcom spinoff.


Originally posted by Tycho

The rain fight was shorter than I thought it would be, but it rocked. The asteroids and the ship chase was even better! That was intense! Wow!

I did want to see more of that fight and more of that planet.

The constant laser barrage from Slave I was very cool. I wish my toy could do that.


Originally posted by Tycho

7) I liked C-3PO. This was one of his better films. Better than TPM and ROTJ for his character.

Somebody else mentioned his newfound mobility. I didn't fully buy into it as that aspect of his abilities has already been established in the OT. Oh well.


Originally posted by Tycho

8) Agreed on the Opening scroll. They didn't explain the Separatist movement that well, and YES I did get that from the book and background stuff I read. But Stillakid's right, that should have been explained a little better in the movie. The Trial scene that was cut from the movie (Padme's and Anakin's trial for espionage on Geonosis) should have been left in. It would have accomplished that - be it late in the film (after the opening titles) or whatever, but oh well.

I gotta get to the bookstore now and dig into the extras. I also want to know about this trial scene. That jump from being captured to an arena execution struck me as extremely weird. Very James Bond Death Sequence. Why not just pop em in the head? No, gotta be big and dramatic about it so as to give them the opportunity to escape. Made no sense. But I suppose it had to be done to open the door for the Jedi to come in and have a big fight.


Originally posted by Tycho

9) Can't wait for Episode III? I don't want it to be all over. I can't wait to watch Attack of the Clones again. I have tickets in 4 hours from now, so I better get my butt back in line!

I'm going back again Sunday...then I'll head over to a digital screening later in the week...then again sometime...then again...:)



Originally posted by mark2d2
Okay, I can understand Derek having some problems with the film --- but how then can he hold TPM is such high esteem? That film totally sucked. I can't even bring myself to watch it on the DVD all the way through.

Why are some people so anti old people? I don't get it. Catch you in thirty or so years, Derek . . . :)

But back to the subject at hand ---- I thought ATOC was pretty spectular. In fact, I was pretty much blown away. Sure, there were some problems, but there was so much to like.

Kamino. Kamino. Kamino! The film is all about Kamino! Loved everything about that planet. Especially Obiwan's dazed and confused but still pretending to know what's going on attitude.

C3-P0 is back with a vengeance!

JarJar is shall we say . . . contained.

Things I didn't like . . . some (but surprisingly not much!) dialogue. Dexter and his Diner. (Hey, I love the 1950s, but not in Star Wars Please!) R2's "increased mobility" looks pretty cool --- but where is this capability in thirty or so years? (The EU expired warranty is not doing it for me, Folks!"

But still, a steller return to form. Bravo, Lucas! Bravo!.

In fact, ATOC is easily my third favorite SW film. And I don't mean this in a snidely backhanded compliment way, either. I genuinely love this film. It's just that Empire and A New Hope can't be beat in my book. The same cannot be said for Return of the Jedi. Yep, ATOC easily bumps it down a notch into the fourth slot. Something I NEVER-IN-A-MILLION-YEARS! expected it to do.

Hmmmmm, you know what? I think I may just head on out back to the theatre now. Really! Sorry! Gotta Go!

I think I'll agree with everything you say, except for 3PO who I think was at his best in ANH. But yeah, not a bad effort overall.

sith pedagog
05-16-2002, 09:44 PM
JUST SAW AOTC!! I loved it! Awesome, better than I expected! Here were MY top 5 highlights without too many spoilers.

1. Less Jar Jar

2. More of the classic comedy (especially from the droids) that we came to love in episodes 4-6.

3. Better script especially catch phrases from Yoda, Mace, Obi, Ani.

4. LIGHTSABERS, LIGHTSABERS, AND MORE LIGHTSABERS!! yes!!!

5. YODA KICKS A>>>>>>


I am not sure what the "critics" were thinking. What did they want from this film. One critic pointed out that the scenes were too short making them appear chopppy and rushed. If they would have been any longer two things could have happened. 1 not all of the story would have been explained as well, or 2. the movie would have been 3 hours long and then they would have complained that it was too long. I also truly believe (admittedly with no evidence) that some of the critics give the bad ratings for personal reasons. I think that atleast some of them thought if they picked out the bad things and then gave it a poor review that they might see their names on the national scene. Honestly, if they thought there would be a lot of good reviews a bad one could make their name pop up all over. I can understand criticism but I can't in all honesty see anything that deserved the horrible reviews that it received. On top fo that, I believe that critics in all their wisdom (hope you picked up on the sarcasm there) forget the one fact that makes a movie good or bad and that is entertainment value. I don't care about 90% of what critics have to say because they have lost focus of the fundamental purpose of movies ALL MOVIES!!

I don't remember people applauding and openly cheering at the last oh say 50+ movies I have seen. Until E2. What about you?

JediTricks
05-16-2002, 10:01 PM
I put my vote into "Need to see it again to decide" because my first instinct is that it was hollow and boring while trying to cram too much into the background. It's like every sequence was more about the situations and the actors were just tools to get these situations across. The dialogue was pretty bland except for a few spots and I thought Dingo Fett... er, I mean "Jango Fett" didn't really show what made Boba Fett the original bad-arse he was in ESB. For me, a lot of the film was just exposition dialogue that drowned out the action. And the "romance" didn't seem to have any setup at all, especially when their Dawson's Creek-dialogue was less interesting than their political discussions... that's not a good sign. Most of all though, I felt that "hollow" best describes the final action sequences, ALL of them.

Maybe I'll feel differently in another viewing, but I didn't fall into it this time around.

SkieWalka
05-16-2002, 10:01 PM
Got to say it was straight out Dope.... Star Wars is finally Back
And that I think derek might just be the actor that playyed Darth Maul in EI and is just upset he wasnt brought back for EII

browndroid
05-16-2002, 10:28 PM
i voted for LOVED IT, the movie rocked! i have to say after ep1 i lost a little faith in lucas, but ep2 was great!

stillakid
05-16-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I put my vote into "Need to see it again to decide" because my first instinct is that it was hollow and boring while trying to cram too much into the background. It's like every sequence was more about the situations and the actors were just tools to get these situations across. The dialogue was pretty bland except for a few spots and I thought Dingo Fett... er, I mean "Jango Fett" didn't really show what made Boba Fett the original bad-arse he was in ESB. For me, a lot of the film was just exposition dialogue that drowned out the action. And the "romance" didn't seem to have any setup at all, especially when their Dawson's Creek-dialogue was less interesting than their political discussions... that's not a good sign. Most of all though, I felt that "hollow" best describes the final action sequences, ALL of them.

Maybe I'll feel differently in another viewing, but I didn't fall into it this time around.


Aside from the action sequences, you've articulated my feelings about the dialogue and "romance" better than my attempt. Same with the background/situations and of course, Fett. In regards to Fett, like I've said, with the way it was written, any random alien could have filled the space. No attempt was made to, as you say, show us the "bad-arse" potential that is supposed to be there in the OT.



Originally posted by sith pedagog

JUST SAW AOTC!! I loved it! Awesome, better than I expected! Here were MY top 5 highlights without too many spoilers.

1. Less Jar Jar

2. More of the classic comedy (especially from the droids) that we came to love in episodes 4-6.

3. Better script especially catch phrases from Yoda, Mace, Obi, Ani.

4. LIGHTSABERS, LIGHTSABERS, AND MORE LIGHTSABERS!! yes!!!

5. YODA KICKS A>>>>>>


I am not sure what the "critics" were thinking. What did they want from this film. One critic pointed out that the scenes were too short making them appear chopppy and rushed. If they would have been any longer two things could have happened. 1 not all of the story would have been explained as well, or 2. the movie would have been 3 hours long and then they would have complained that it was too long. I also truly believe (admittedly with no evidence) that some of the critics give the bad ratings for personal reasons. I think that atleast some of them thought if they picked out the bad things and then gave it a poor review that they might see their names on the national scene. Honestly, if they thought there would be a lot of good reviews a bad one could make their name pop up all over. I can understand criticism but I can't in all honesty see anything that deserved the horrible reviews that it received. On top fo that, I believe that critics in all their wisdom (hope you picked up on the sarcasm there) forget the one fact that makes a movie good or bad and that is entertainment value. I don't care about 90% of what critics have to say because they have lost focus of the fundamental purpose of movies ALL MOVIES!!

I don't remember people applauding and openly cheering at the last oh say 50+ movies I have seen. Until E2. What about you?

The critics were right on with the choppy and rushed part. You've conjectured that they were just looking for attention without providing support for it. The movie was choppy and much of the dialogue was a little cheesy. They don't get paid more to write bad reviews. It's not their job to write one sentence (ie. Entertaining, two thumbs up!). They write critiques, which include good and bad points. Overall entertainment value is separate from breaking a film down into it's various elements and forming an opinion about them. Your blanket statement about critics having "lost focus" is without foundation. Just because you don't choose to agree with them isn't just cause to insult them in that way.

DarthBrandon
05-17-2002, 12:04 AM
I don't know what all the fuss is about ATOC rocked big time, I really don't know what people out there expect from the new series. I mean it's not the original series nothing is going to be the same about the films, like I said before this is a totally different set of, movies sure some of the characters are back, but the story is not the same. Jango Fett in this movie sets the stage for why Boba is Such a bad A** in Episode III. Boba is extemely P.O. that his father was (spoiler) taken out by the Jedi (Mace), this will probably lead to him working for Vader and Palpy in the next movie because in the Empire Vader talks to him like he's known him for a long long time. I find that these movies have way too high expectations for some people who can't seem to let go of the original series. TPM was not that bad and it could have been better with less Jar Jar, but ATOC is the second installment of the series that will set the stage for the final movie in this new saga.I liked this movie very much because you can see how far George is willing to go ( Scenes, background, effects etc.) to make his vision complete. I personally don't think George wants to redo any of these movies twenty years from now.
Yoda was just Awsome, Obi-Wan excellent acting as a teacher, Mace couldn't have been done any better than Sammy did him, Padme was O.K., She looked hot if anything, hum Anakin just a little whinny but excellent job done after his mothers death (the look on his face pure hatred.)
I guess I'm just rambling here but to cut the movie to pieces come on in the original trilogy, if you look close enough there are big time flaws that are seen still even in the special edition. ie Obi-Wan lightsaber battle with Vader spot the flaw if you can, it's still there. I think George came full circle with ATOC in bringing the magic of this new trilogy alive. Sure it's no Gone With The Wind LOL but it kicked the a** out TPM and Spidey.

A-1 going to see it a third time tomorrow with the little tike.

Darth Knight
05-17-2002, 12:52 AM
I loved it.

Tycho
05-17-2002, 01:15 AM
I saw it my second time tonight and loved it more than the first time!

Even the beginning gets better with more time spent viewing.

Wow!

This one I can keep going back to see and won't get bored from. I look forward to the romantic scenes as much as the action.

Nicely done.

On a side note, the intensity in the Jango Fett apartment scene and the full idea that they ARE threatening each other, or tempting each other to make an ill-intended move was awesome.

"I can't wait to see them in action."

"They'll do their job. You can count on it."

Translated:

"Get your guns on and let's see what YOU can do, if you're supposed to be THAT good."

"I am. And you're life's going to change when you find out about it!"

SithDroid
05-17-2002, 01:15 AM
I have to diagree that it is the best in the series. ESB will always be the best. AOTC was really good for a couple reasons, cool jedi battles, yoda fight scene, new worlds, no mention of midiclorians, and lastly, hardly any Jar Jar (Yea!). But the film did drag a little in the middle and the "love story" between Padme and Anakin seemed very rushed and forced in the film, there was no development at all for it. Plus a lot of the dialogue between the two was extremely boring and corny. Also a point that I do not understand, Anakin tells Padme that he killed all the sand people, yet she still falls in love with him. He admits that he is a cold blooded killer and she seems to see nothing wrong with that. What's the deal? Any normal girl would be turned off by that. Tha's just my opinion though. A really great movie and a ton better then TPM. I hope EP III is even better.

Darth Knight
05-17-2002, 01:26 AM
Derek, I would like to know how does Boba Fett grow up to be this loser? About Anakin being the chosen one he is. I think that Anakin still has much to learn about the force. That's why he was not able to take Count Dooku down. He was to quick to act. His anger was controling him. He was not using his head think with the force that is. So for you to say that Anakin is pretty much like a joke I think your wrong. The best is yet to come. That's why Anakin will turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader who then will hunt down and destroy all the Jedi Knights but two Yoda and Obi Wan who go into hidding. You know the rest. Well that's my two cents.

plasticfetish
05-17-2002, 01:28 AM
Heya ... took the family to see the movie this afternoon and I have to say it was super. I know I'm (as we all are) "preaching to the pulpit", but I think that overall this was a very entertaining movie.

(Question: Do we call it ... "movie" or "film"? Since the only film involved was the print that my theater showed. I would have LOVED to have seen the all digital version of this movie and in retrospect am even more disappointed by our collective lack of choices for that.)

The visual elements in this movie were outstanding. I thought that they were good and impressive and for the most part effective in episode 1 ... but this time, they were to my eye superb.
The wide shots and landscapes were beautiful and wonderfully surreal ... this is a visual element that I have always looked forward to with the Star Wars movies. The scene overlooking the Tusken Raider's camp was amazing and there were many more just like it.
The sets ... wow, I'm so impressed ... from the dressing and furnishings in the various Coruscant locations to the overall design of places like the creepy and gothic Geonosis interiors. It was so cool seeing Christopher Lee strolling through that set ... or doing anything for that matter.
(I wanna be nice ... but, who was disappointed about the "80 year old man" and this and that? What's Yoda ... 800? C'mon, it's science fiction ... I think it was more intense because of the fact that we were seeing two ancient masters going at it. Very much in the tradition of classic Samurai or Kung-Fu films.)
The CG in this movie was great ... I'll be honest, I have my doubts some times, but for the most part I was amazed here. It's obvious that Lucas has the best tools and the best people making this happen. I'm still not 100% sold on the rendering and articulation of characters like Yoda or Jar Jar ... I sometimes miss the latex puppet Yoda and some of the pleasant limitations that came with it. I think a CG character like Yoda can end up being a little too "fluid" perhaps. Too squishy and not as muscle and bones mechanical like it should be.

The story? I was pleasantly surprised. I think they did a great job with the screenplay. The dialog? Yes ... I can agree with some of the critics both abroad and in this forum ... it had its flat moments
(Natalie Portman, as adorable as she is, was more mechanical than C-3PO) and sometimes I grimaced at the corn ball exchanges ... but, I don't think the dialog was written to impress guys like Roger Ebert or me for that matter ... frankly, from what I've read from George Lucas, the movie is made for "kids" and if the rest of us can get onboard, then great.
With that said, I saw this film with my 4 year old son ... he was into it all the way. He's 4 and he sat there for over 2 hours ... I think that says a lot. Even my wife, who didn't care if she saw the film went away impressed by it.

How will I rank it with the other four? I can't say for sure at this point. Empire was my favorite, and I think this comes close for many reasons. For certain, (I think Tycho made this point earlier) they could have gotten better from the actors ... but, Hayden Christensen did a great job and I will forgive the "this parties over" line from Sam Jackson because he's so great (hope we get much much more Mace in ep. 3)
On the other hand ... I'm not sure how I feel about the C-3PO antics. The whole Daffy Duck-esque scene in the factory was pushing it (OK, it was fun) and the "This is a drag" line seemed not to fit into the big intense battle scene. I did like the head-switch though and want that toy now.

OK ... enough rambling. It was great, I want to see it again ... but, what do we have to do to get some more digital houses out there? The digital sound was sooo great. I can (and have to) imagine how cool it must be in its fully intended digital format.

Darth Spectre
05-17-2002, 01:50 AM
I thought AOTC was very enjoyable. Saw it twice tonight. The dialogue at times was hard to listen to, especially Anakin when talking to Amidala (especially in the fireplace scene). The Threepio stuff was borderline over the top. Lightsaber duel was way too short at the end though, but I guess it is all to setup an "Empire" like duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

mark2d2
05-17-2002, 02:57 AM
Stillakid --- Two things . . .

1) I agree with you about C3-P0 he is better in both ANH and ESB. That said he is much better here than he ever was in TPM. Thats what I meant by "Back with a Vengeance."

2) I think you quoted me wrong. It was I who spoke about "increased mobility" but I was talking about R2-D2! Not C3-PO . . .

Everybody Else --- Having just seen the film again, I must say it held up the second time. I really like this film. It's fun to watch. And I liked the final lightaber Duel. What we have here is two young Jedi not yet ready to take on a Master --- and then the Master fleeing from Yoda. I thought this was great. I was also stoked that Dooku lives . . .

JediMikeBuckley
05-17-2002, 03:20 AM
I absolutely loved Episode II! I saw it May 16 at 12:30pm. The first showing at a nice theater in my area on opening day. I liked Episode I, I'm amoung a few who did I guess. So what. Yeah, Jar-Jar Binks did get annoying after a while in Episode I, but he is hardly seen and tolerable in Episode II. As George Lucas has said in recent interviews he's "telling the story", not trying to impress critics, and not trying to beat "Spider-Man" at being the top-grossing film this summer. I like that. He finances these movies anyway through his own company, Lucasfilm, and he said tonight on "Extra" that he'd just like to make back what he put out to make Episode II. Wow, where to start? Well, first I liked the performances. Especially Ewan McGregor, Hayden Christianson, and all the other principal actors. The special effects were stunning, and even better than what we saw in Episode I. I didn't think Anakin "whined" at all. He is a tormented soul, and I think that anger, aggression, and hatred helps to propel him to the Dark Side. I really enjoyed any scene with Jango Fett in it. Being a fan of Boba Fett from the classic original trilogy, it was great to see at least some of his back story. In fact I think Boba's origin parallels Anakin's in some ways. Yoda kicks ***! When I saw the movie the crowd, myself included, cheered and applauded when Yoda appeared to confront Count Dooku at the end of the movie! The fight scene between them was incredible! Yoda finally has proven himself the Jedi Master he has been said to be! Mace Windu got to strut his stuff too! I will definitely see Episode II again! No question about that! Star Wars fans seem to be the most critical of the movies, but that's because we love them so much.

WarlordATF
05-17-2002, 03:38 AM
I went to see the 10:15 Showing tonight,Its 4 am and i'm still wide awake and playing the film over and over in my mind.I was 6 when my aunt took me to see A New Hope in the theatre in 77 and i have been hooked on Star Wars ever since.Attack of the Clones was awsome.I was always a die-hard fan but i can honestly say i was not disappointed in any part of it except that some parts were cut from the final film,Lets hope for a Special Edition release with nothing cut to be released one day!I understand why the cuts were made,Its hard to keep people in there for 2 and half hours,the theatre seats become uncomfortable and they may leave the theatre with negative feelings.But i could have sat there forever tonight,Every new scene brought something new into the SW Universe,it all added up to the final battle.That was Amazing,The Droids and Jedi and YODA! Wow! It was nice to gain more insight into Boba Fett as well.Episode III seems so far away,I want more!!! Thank You Mr. Lucas...I can't wait for Episode III!

sith pedagog
05-17-2002, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



Aside from the action sequences, you've articulated my feelings about the dialogue and "romance" better than my attempt. Same with the background/situations and of course, Fett. In regards to Fett, like I've said, with the way it was written, any random alien could have filled the space. No attempt was made to, as you say, show us the "bad-arse" potential that is supposed to be there in the OT.




The critics were right on with the choppy and rushed part. You've conjectured that they were just looking for attention without providing support for it. The movie was choppy and much of the dialogue was a little cheesy. They don't get paid more to write bad reviews. It's not their job to write one sentence (ie. Entertaining, two thumbs up!). They write critiques, which include good and bad points. Overall entertainment value is separate from breaking a film down into it's various elements and forming an opinion about them. Your blanket statement about critics having "lost focus" is without foundation. Just because you don't choose to agree with them isn't just cause to insult them in that way.

Much of the dialogue is cheesy? Of course it was cheesy! Did you happen to see those other three films around 77-83. It was full of cheesy lines! Why would you expect anythign different?

First, I said that I didn't have any evidence. What do you want? But I never said anything about making more money for a bad review. YOU imagined that yourself. I said that sometimes giving a bad review to a movie that is destined to be a box office smash increases the likelyhood that your review will be read. Star Wars fans ar more dedicated movie goers than any other fans! We will see it over and over. Few will read the "great" reviews that we expect. However, bad reviews draw people in. Critics become the people you love to hate. You can't honestly tell me that millions of people say "you know what, Roger Ebert is right every time". One of his draws is that he is obnoxious in many ways.

NO blanket statement is ever correct, and my statement is not meant to insult them but to critique their work. I hope that they and you cand handle that since thats what they do for a living. They have lost focus. Movies ARE for ENTERTAINMENT. Yes they break it down and that is appropriate. However, the critics themselves have drown themselves so much in the details of filmaking that they have lost touch with what the average movie goer desires. So cute little "summing up" statements like "two thumbs up","a must see", or "wait for video" imply overall entertainment value.

What would YOU have done with the scenes? I admit that they were a little choppy. But think about how much material was covered in around 2:15. If he would have cut the scenes it would have hurt the story value. If he increases it to over 2:30 (possibly close to 3:00. He would have been bashed for drawing it out too long and cut back on ticket sales.

I thought the love scenes were tough for SW fans to deal with, but the relationship MUST be well established in the mind of the viewer so that we can get a feel for the passion that Anakin feels. If that is not established here, it makes his turn to the darkside less convincing in E3.

Magic-Middle
05-17-2002, 06:10 AM
I left the theater with my head swimming as there was so much to take in and digest. I purposely attempted to bock out as much as I could in relation to the movie so that I could be surprised. Boy was I ever surprised!!! Once I had a some time to digest the whole move I have to say I ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT!!!!! I can easily say that I will see this movie several more times and each time will be just as rewarding as the entire movie is so visual. The movie will run you through a range of motions from laughter , shock, sadness and joy. I absolutely love the arena scene when all of the Jedi arrive and the lightsabers are dancing at every entrance in the arena.

Quite-Gone Jim
05-17-2002, 07:26 AM
I saw it Thursday afternoon. (I'm getting too old to stay up until 3 am!) And my first reaction was this was AWESOME! If I have to compare it to the rest - #3 behind ANH and ESB.

I liked the blatent and stupid humor C-3PO had.

Yoda rocks.

The dialog wasn't great (but this is Star Wars, so I wasn't expecting an Best Picture type of screenplay).

This was much better than Episode I. I left that one feeling totally let down and even bored.

The tempo in this film was much closer to ANH, starting with a big event, the slowing down and building until the climax.

Things I didn't like:

The love story: I didn't find it real believable. I thought they should have done a little more to develop that.

They should have explained the Jedi's "problem" a little more in detail. I'm still not sure I got that part.

Hayden: He brought out the moodiness and the hints of the darkside, but he just didn't seem all that extraordinary, and I didn't feel the chemistry between him and Natalie at all.

Jango and Boba: They did a great job, but the end of Jango was kind of anti-climatic.

I think Jorg is getting his touch back, so Episode III should stupendious!

Can't wait!

jonthejedi
05-17-2002, 08:05 AM
I got to see it twice yesterday(Thurs)..once by myself, and the second time with my wife & 5 year old at a 7:30 PM show. IN A WORD...awesome!!!I was there in '77. I'm 48 years old now. I became a 10 year old again, and a born again Star Wars true believer. It rocks! Best since Empire. Maybe George was rusty for Phantom Menace. Yoda at both shows simply brought the house down! People were screaming and standing up & cheering. I haven't seen anything like that at the movies in a while. I really wanted the magic back for this one, and we got it. It seems he really did pay attention to our gripes. See it with a big crowd...how can you not!

aikman
05-17-2002, 09:42 AM
After seeing this movie you actually need to give time for it to sink in.
I actually had a friend leave it and say 'i dont even know what to think'
You will be in a daze after soo many thing happenning...the more I think about it , the more I loved it, I need to see it again

Jonna
05-17-2002, 09:45 AM
I just saw it last night and I have some major problems with the film. Don't get me wrong, I am a hugh fan and I would go to see SW movies until they stop making them BUT: this film had the worst acting and dialog of any of the films. The other major problem I had is that it jumped around far to much. Now I know that the SW films tend to do that, but it is usually only with two groups of characters and not several.

Now on a good note. The SFx were the best yet. Of course they should be expected to be with each film because of the advancing technology. And it was action packed. Yodas fascial expressions were much better than the puppet and his fight scene is the best ever.

Well, I am seeing it again on Sunday. I'm sure that it will get better everytime I see it. I am always very critical the first viewing.

sirk buzok
05-17-2002, 09:51 AM
I think that ATOC, all things considered was a great Star Wars movie. I didn't see the acting as bad as the critics said it was. One thing about it though it did jump around alot between different planets, alot to digest visually. This is a good thing. Definately a movie I will enjoy seeing again and again.:)

darthvyn
05-17-2002, 12:10 PM
had to let the movie sink in a little before i posted anything. i, along with many of you saw the midnight showing... (did anyone else's ticket say 12:01am WED 5/15?) and was astounded. for the first ten minutes or so, i was just repeating to myself "please don't suck" over and over again. i think it heard me.

the political machinations are great... the empire is born! and who do we have to thank for that? jar-jar binks himself! we all know we hated him in tpm, now we know why. he gave the "chancellor" the full power of the emperor. his stupidity actually served a plot device!

we also see part of boba fett's motivations. anyone know yet what the braids are on his right shoulder in esb? i think i do... hatred of jedi much?

i was immensely surprised at how good hayden christensen was. my favorite sequence was everything that had to do with the tusken camp... the actual scene, the cut to yoda and mace, and the confiding in padme (which is an indication of their feelings... if they didn't love each other, he wouldn't have told her about it, and she wouldn't have tried to comfort him...) did everyone notice the tears in yoda's and mace's eyes during this sequence? a heartbreaking disturbance in the force. just so damn good.

then of course there's the "why do i get the feeling you'll be the death of me?" darkly humorous foreshadowing... too eerily funny.

yoda was all around great... from the childish playfulness in the scene with the younlings (esb flash-back [flash-foward?]) to his grave seriousness with the battles, and of course the final showdown. how many of you DIDN'T thrill at the sight of yoda's shadow entering the room. how many of you COULDN'T stop cheering until the battle was over...

the cinematography of the final lightsaber battle, after anakin cuts the power lines, and all the illumination is from the sabers, was incredible... just enough stylization to dazzle the senses.

all in all, i think this is second best in the series. empire, clones, new hope, jedi, menace. i might have to revise the list after episode III.

the music was almost the best of any of the series. i think it's the addition of the imperial march that puts it up there... otherwise, i think once again it's just below esb. the love theme is so grandiose and dark, every time it crescendos, i was expecting the love theme from han/leia, and every time it drops to this darkly despairing abyss.

oh, and critics can (insert line of the most imaginitive expletives you can think of using the biggest words to sound more intelligent than you really are [just like the critics] here...)

JEDIIAM
05-17-2002, 01:39 PM
I CANT EVEN BEGIN TO SAY HOW HAPPY I WAS WHEN THE WAIT WAS OVER AND THE MOVIE BEGAN! I MYSELF A LIFE LONG STAR WARS FAN HATED MOST OF E1 BUT E2 BLEW ME AWAY! IM NOT SURE BUT I MAY EVEN LIKE IT BETTER THAN EMPIRE! JAR JAR MOSTLY NON EXISTENT, TONS OF JEDI, MACE AND YODA FIGHTING, WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY ASK FOR! NOW IF HASBRO CAN JUST WORK ON THESE SHORT PACKING OF FIGURES THAN E2 CAN BE A TOTALLY ENJOYABLE EXPIERENCE FOR ALL!
(AS LONG AS YOU DONT COUNT CELEBRATION 2 WHICH SUCKED.)

JEDIIAM
05-17-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Kernel
I can't say; I haven't had the pleasure of seeing a sneak preview and I refuse to partake in the pirate copies on the internet. A TRUE SW fan would not screw Lucas like that (the pirating part, of course).

And to make a point which some may or may not like... to those who *****ed about EPI and who will be *****ing about EP2... George came up with the idea for SW... if he never made the movies, we would never be here. The story is created by HIM and turned into a movie for US. Not created by US and made into a movie by him.

So stop *****ing about how he 'screwed this and that up'. He never did nor will he screw anything up in the movies since all of it came from him in the first place.

He may have done things that some didn't like and I'm sure he will do things in EP2 that more won't like, but remember... most of us were 5 years old when we saw EP4 - if we saw it for the first time today, I doubt it would have the impact on us as it has having been with us from such a young age - an age where imagination rules and we don't have any inclination of how soem CG looks bad or the acting is bad. THE NEEDS OF THE MANY MUST OUTWAY THE NEEDS OF LUCAS!

pthfnder89
05-17-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by JEDIIAM
THE NEEDS OF THE MANY MUST OUTWAY THE NEEDS OF LUCAS!


Lucas has no responsibility to create a film based on our wishes and suggestions. I had some serious problems with AOTC, and I think that despite it's good points it is a seriously flawed movie. But the descision to see it or not is mine. Lucas is financing it himself and is entitled to make the film in any way he cares to. Fans have every right to hate a film, or to love it, but regardless of how we feel, movie making isn't a democracy it's an art and a buisness.

I wish that weren't true sometimes and I wish (like a lot of people do) that I could sit down with George Lucas and tell him exactly how I would change things to make them better. But that isn't the way it works, and it probably never will be.



Originally posted by JEDIIAM
NOW IF HASBRO CAN JUST WORK ON THESE SHORT PACKING OF FIGURES THAN E2 CAN BE A TOTALLY ENJOYABLE EXPIERENCE FOR ALL!
(AS LONG AS YOU DONT COUNT CELEBRATION 2 WHICH SUCKED.)

All of the Saga figures right now are pretty much seeing even distribution. There was a glut of the first few cases of course because all of the stores had to stock up for April 23rd. But the figures since then are being packed evenly in most cases; they are only hard to find because
a)scalpers snatch them up as soon as possible
&
b)stores have to wait until there is more room on the shelves before they can stock the newer figures
But this has been the same situation since the very first POTF2 line.:)

BigAl415
05-17-2002, 02:55 PM
Hey all, first off let me talk about the film. The last half was spectacular and the battle on Geonosis was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in a film, there's no denying that, but you have to admit that Hayden was a pretty bad actor in the first half. I just think there was a better choice out there than some guy that I swore was a member of N*SYNC at first glance. Anywho, for anyone who read the book, I'm sure you'll agree with me that the film seemed to be a little......well.......censored. One major example of this I can recall is the whole sidestory of Anakin's mother. In the book, there is actually a description of how Cliegg loses his leg and its quite gruesome let me tell you. Also, although it was alluded to in dialogue, in the book we actually get to SEE (well, er...read) Anakin MURDER the entire camp of Tusken Raiders. I was hoping to see this reflected on the big screen but I was sorely disappointed by Lucas' censorship. I understand it was only PG but this scene was essentially THE point where Anakin loses it and falls to the dark side. Don't get me wrong, I loved Attack of The Clones, but after you all get done seeing it for the umpteenth time, go out and read the book. Not only is it a better representation of how Anakin slips into the dark side, it fills in A LOT of the back story of the film. Well I'm off to see it again, may the force be with you.
~BigAl415

General Warpig
05-17-2002, 03:22 PM
Loved it.Hayden is a great actor,taking hold of the petulant/confused/frustrated and very alone young Skywalker.Portman was fleshtastic so much so a young Jedi would find it hard to focus on anything higher .Mace,Yoda,Dooku,Clonetroopers and Palpatine were great.As an older Sw fan i must say i enjoyed Jar Jar's breif appearance immensley.Jango and son stole the stage(the final shot of Boba is just fantastic).
Altogether all i expected from a Prequal Sequal and more.Another bridge built toward ANH,more suprises.I think in many subsequent veiwings will be on a par with Empire,we will see!
My Wife thought it was fantastic too and we talked all day about possible outcomes in the story and every time we mentioned the film we found we were boyh grinning stupidley like kids!

"Is it true firemen used to put out fires?" fahrenheit 451

Rogue II
05-17-2002, 04:37 PM
I thought the movie was ok. I do need to see it again before I call it great. It was WAY better than Episode 1. I think I missed a few things. I read a bunch of the Spoilers, but the movie still wasn't what I expected.

Hayden Christensen did a good job playing a cocky 19-yr old brat.

I would have liked to see more of Tatooine.

I thought the Courasaunt chase scene was great. While I am not a huge Episode 1 fan, I thought the duel between Darth Maul, Obi-Won, and Qui-Gon Jin was much better than the Anakin, Obi-Won, Dooku battle. Yoda was pretty good.

Oh, and C-3PO's back-to-back-to-back puns were terrible....I loved it. Maybe he should have quit while he was ahead.:D

Boy, I am glad there was no musical number.

Now, start the countdown for Episode III!!!!

Kernel
05-17-2002, 10:23 PM
Ok, just saw my second showing. Like I said in my original and 2nd post - it's George's vision, and it's amazing. Now for the parts I think had bad acting. This does not mean I think he 'screwed it up' or anything of that sort... just parts that could have been done a little better... I'll try to do them in order:

1) Scene when then centipedes are going towards Padme... seemed that the sound of Obi-Wan and Anakin's conversation could be heard through the wall, then all of the sudden, it disappeared... only to be brought back when they flip to them in a sort of 'middle of conversation' and then back into the room and you could once again hear them through the wall

2) Scene where Padme says 'oh he's not a jedi yet, he's still a padwan learner'. Why the hell and wtf reason did she have for saying that as to only allow another blow up scene for Anakin

3) When Obi-Wan goes into the archives, the alien jedi's all seem too 'computer generated human stiff' in their walks

4) Scene when Kit Fisto used his force power to knock over the Battle Droid C-3PO... like a jedi has time in all that battle to stop, do that, and give a big grin before getting back to the battle around him, all along without getting shot.

5) Scene when oriental lady Jedi bears her lightsaber and then puts her hand out... was like an afterthought.

6) Why does Anakin call Obi-Wan 'Master Obi-Wan' and not 'Master Kenobi' when he calls Mace 'Master Windu', and along those lines... is always ready to disobey Obi-Wan but follow Master Windu's orders to a T

7) The scene where Jango bites it could have been a little more action packed... I mean, it's like he just stood there and didn't even try to dodge.

8) The scene when Padme is come upon by a Clone Teooper in the sand... that was an uneeded and real lackluster filler scene that seemed like it was simply put in to fill space and had no real use.

And one last thing... it seemed that how Obi-Wan referred to Anakin was all random... he'd sometimes call him 'my young apprentice' then 'mmy padwan learner' and then sometimes just 'anakin'. There should have been some more structure to this... but maybe it was meant to be that way to indicate the 'mistakes' obi-wan makes in his training of Anakin??? Only George knows.

All in all, it was an excellent movie though. These kinds of things would really only stand out to a hardcore fan as far as I'm concerned, because lets face it - that's exactly the kind of stuff we look for.

Obi-Don
05-18-2002, 07:03 AM
I loved it. I have seen it twice now and will see it again. It blows TPM away.

stillakid
05-18-2002, 09:10 AM
After some more discussions with others about this, hearing both good and bad "reviews," I think that it is coming down to this: There is enough in this movie for someone to proclaim it fantastic if that's how they want to see it and there are enough problems in the movie to look at if you want to not like it. The action sequences are good, but the motivation for them at times is forced. The dialogue is decent sometimes, but at others it is forced and cheesy. The flow is choppy, but it doesn't drag like TPM did. I think, for me, I'm willing to give Lucas the benefit of the doubt on this one because I'm just a little too tired of not liking new Star Wars movies. It's not like I'm dismissing poor filmmaking in order to like AOTC. TPM was just badly done and it there wasn't enough good stuff in it to rationalize to myself that it was a good movie. But AOTC has such an equal mix of good qualities and poor that it's easy to pick on it yet like it.

I see it again tomorrow, so I'll see if my opinion changes since I now know what's coming.

WalrusMan
05-18-2002, 12:53 PM
I'm going to see it for the second time this afternoon. Too much information to process in one viewing (as if I really expected to only see it once?) The plot is confusing, and the uninitiated will be thoroughly perplexed trying to decide who the bad guys really are. My girlfriend, namely. No *****es at all, though. If you whine about any of the sometimes cornball dialogue, then I refer you to the previous four films.

There are some very eerie scenes. One Jedi's death is particularly horrific, although it's more suggestive than graphic. Some of the action sequences at the end take on a "Saving Private Ryan"-styled feel to them, with fast zooms and shaky camerawork. The end left me wanting more. EP3 is set up to be the real Clone Wars movie, so I guess that makes perfect sense. In the end, telling you guys, the fans, that it's a great movie is a bit redundant. You already knew that.

See it 17 times!

Tycho
05-18-2002, 02:03 PM
The one Jedi's death? I saw two particularly outright slayings:

1) when the Jedi Council Master leaps up onto Dooku's viewing balcony and Jango hammers him until a several shots get through.

2) there's another Jedi that's trying to help a fallen one in the arena, the healthy Jedi's lightsaber is still on, but he just doesn't get around fast enough before a battle droid hammers like 3 shots into him that progressively smoke their way up his chest - all direct hits to the heart (the Jedi was clearly human).

There is so much to see that I'm sure I have to look again and again somewhere else in the scene and I'll notice something else.


Obi-Wan is at one point mourning the loss of a human male Jedi that you see fallen - when Dooku halts the droids for a moment to call for Mace's surrender.

Expanded Universe fans of the Jedi Apprentice books (Young Obi-Wan series) are thinking this was Garen Muln (spelling) - one of 2 of Obi-Wan's closest human Jedi friends, and also one of the original test pilots of the Delta-7 Jedi starfighter corps. The Jedi girl who goes "Ha" in a Forceful swing of her lightsaber followed with a hand strike is rumored to be Siri Taichi, Adi Gallia's former apprentice (Siri would be a full Knight by now - she's only several years younger than Obi-Wan).

I did not see Quinlan Vos clearly in any of the Arena scenes. There was NO effort by Lucas to incorporate any EU characters into the movie EXCEPT for Aayla Secura, which was done VERY intentionally, though her former Master would have been even more appreciated by EU fans.

To change the subject slightly, I did not find the plot confusing at all. It was an assasination-attempt investigation, sweet and simple, that led Obi-Wan to discover that (likely) the Sith were amassing a Clone Army to be delivered into the hands of a corrupt Republic Senate, that the Jedi are only now realizing might be under an evil leadership (though they don't suspect Palpatine openly). I like the fact that the saberdart investigation could have taken place in any cop or FBI movie, and it takes on the Star Wars twist. Meanwhile, Anakin's role was that of the bodyguard, and while he was already in love with Padme since a childhood crush, it's the "classic story of the protector falling for his / her charge."

But it is done super-good! :D

I love this movie! (and hopefully I'll be seeing it for my 4th time today!)

JediTricks
05-18-2002, 04:43 PM
You know what it feels like to me? Like Ep 1 left us starving for Star Wars for 3 years, and AOTC is a loaf of white bread. It's bread that, as starving people, we'll lap up and enjoy how the texture seems so much better than starving, but on its own, you wouldn't want to eat so much of because there's little food value or flavor to it - and eating this whole loaf makes you feel kinda ooky.

Casual George
05-18-2002, 05:40 PM
You know what it feels like to me? Like Ep 1 left us starving for Star Wars for 3 years, and AOTC is a loaf of white bread. It's bread that, as starving people, we'll lap up and enjoy how the texture seems so much better than starving, but on its own, you wouldn't want to eat so much of because there's little food value or flavor to it - and eating this whole loaf makes you feel kinda ooky.

Nah! I don't think so... It rocked!!!! End of story.

JediTricks
05-18-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
You know what it feels like to me?...

Originally posted by Casual George
Nah! I don't think so... It rocked!!!! End of story. You don't think that's how it felt to me? Do you know me better than I know myself? I thought I plainly stated my opinion and stated it as such, so I'm a bit surprised that I'm wrong and it's not my opinion after all. :confused:

Perhaps you simply meant that my opinion isn't shared by you. ;) :D

Darth Grifter
05-18-2002, 06:21 PM
Yeah, Ok...I admit that the dialogue was cheesey at points and that there was a lot to see...HOWEVER, I would like to agree with the others who continually point the doubters back to the previous 4 movies. Cheesey dialogue, IV, V, & VI were all filled with cheesey dialogue performed by actors who at that point in their respective careers were nobodies (except maybe Harrison Ford;) ).
I loved the movie and I am still reeling from the first time seeing it (midnight three days ago). I listen to the soundtrack in my car everyday on my way to work and school and back, and I read the book. I agree that after Ep I (which I somewhat liked <dodging arrows>) I was longing for something more substantive and AOTC gave it to me.
I agree with Tycho that the storyline wasn't that confusing at all. My wife (a very non-Star Wars fan) ventured to the midnight showing so that she could go "HA!" after the movie and tell me it wasn't worth it. But, the "ha" never escaped her lips and she enjoyed the film and could follow the story very well.
The biggest complaint around my neck of the woods was about the slow moving storyline and the lack of action...All I have to say about that is did you miss the last 45 minutes of the movie? :confused: People wanted action and then they complain when they get it, and the Yoda battle...hello...probably the single coolest battle scene in any movie that I have ever taken part in. WOW!!!:eek:
So...my things are said. I continue to read these reviews and I enjoy what everyone has to say very much, so don't think I'm trying to dis' on anyone at all because I'm not. :D

Goin' to see it again on Sunday!!!Yippee:sur:

chewiegurl1138
05-18-2002, 09:25 PM
Well, I've seen it twice...once with my entire family...and everyone absolutely loved it. My favorite parts- YODA, the speeder chase and the jedi arena battle. When I got into the theater, all I could think about was Episode 1 and the total dissapointment...don't get me wrong, after watching it over and over I came to like it and actually enjoy Jar Jar's annoying tantics ..even so, AOTC ruled. The original trilogy stilll holds high but AOTC has definately become the best for me. Threepio was definately his old self, providing the comic relief during the hard and climatic situations. Jar Jar was finally toned down, which helped me appreciate him more (even though I blame him for the emergence of the empire, even though it was inevitable). I was dissapointed in Jango's death but it totally helped me empathize with Boba's hatred later on in the OT. The Death Star thing TOTALLY caught me offguard...the whole theater was amazed. At the beginning, the movie was a bit slow, but I knew it was only building. Everything was great but the only thing which SHOULD have been cut out (instead of Padme's family) was the "running in the meadow" scene aka as the frolic scene. There's only one word to describe that- retarded. Besides that...GL is the MAN. HE'S DONE IT THIS TIME!!

NOW, THE CRAZE FOR EPISODE 3 BEGINS! :crazed:

stillakid
05-18-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by WalrusMan
If you whine about any of the sometimes cornball dialogue, then I refer you to the previous four films.



I keep hearing this, but aside from TPM, there are no sweeping examples of cornball dialogue in any of the OT films. Start listing them if you don't agree. There may have been one or two that I don't recall at the moment, but certainly nothing in comparison to Dawson's Creek that AOTC emulated.

stillakid
05-18-2002, 10:05 PM
What I do like most regarding the politics is that the Emperor is playing everyone against everyone else. Nobody sees it coming.

What's missing is any sense that Palpatine is involved in pushing Anakin to the dark side. The kid is doing it all on his bi-polar own.

Darth Metalmute
05-18-2002, 10:09 PM
Tycho,
I could be wrong but I believe that Siri Taichi is fighting the Sabaoth in the orbit of Geonosis along side of Adi Gallia.
(Jedi Starfighter; Playstation 2)

SithDroid
05-18-2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I keep hearing this, but aside from TPM, there are no sweeping examples of cornball dialogue in any of the OT films. Start listing them if you don't agree. There may have been one or two that I don't recall at the moment, but certainly nothing in comparison to Dawson's Creek that AOTC emulated.

I agree stillakid. The OT IMO doesn't have that many cheesy lines. And even the cheesy lines in the OT are delivered so good that you don't even think about them.

Did anyone catch the homage to the OT? When Anakin is tied to the pole on Geonosis and the arena beasts come out Anakin says, "I have a bad feeling about this." A classic SW line. The theatre I was in at midnight all laughed.

I can't wait till I can get this on DVD so I can speed through the painfully boring and underdeveloped "love" scenes with Padme and Anakin.

DarthBrandon
05-18-2002, 11:17 PM
Just back from third showing, liked it just as much, sure nobody wanted to see the cheesy underdeveloped love story but it has to happen for Luke & Leia to come into play after the third installment of the series.

On another note just picked up Taun We, Luminara Unduli, & Royal Gaurd here in Canada. Was very surprised when the wife's Aunt got them in Truro Nova Scotia, it was a very good score.
They have lots of this wave if anyone in that area wants them.

P.S. They are at Walmart.

NailBunny
05-19-2002, 05:28 AM
Just saw the movie for the 4th time, and I gotta say this movie is cool as hell.

Ok.... someone back me up on this.... I found it VERY weird the after the whole scrolling text to establish the movie thing, lucas decided to pan UP instead of DOWN like all the other Star Wars movies. In A New Hope you pan DOWN to Tatooine. In Empire you pan DOWN to see a Star Desrtoyer run into your face. And in Jedi you pan DOWN to see the DSII. In Ep1, you pan DOWN to see the Republic Cruiser [see where I'm goin with this?]

Why in Ep2 did we pan UP? I don't know about anyone else but this seems very weird to me.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the feel of the movie, like "this won't be your normal SW movie" kinda thing. I dunno.

What do you think?

DarthBrandon
05-19-2002, 05:37 AM
Probably just trying something new I guess, one never knows what goes on inside George's head.

Needles
05-19-2002, 06:30 AM
I just saw Star Wars Episode 2 on friday and it was By far the best of the five,i hope 3 years goes by quickly because Episode 3 is gonna rock,I was not fan of Star wars till I first saw TPM,matter of fact I had know idea Starwars Existed,I give it a ten because there only one flaw when mace Windu Chopped Jango Fetts Head clear off in front of his son.That just aint right.Sorry for giving out that major spoiler even though who evers reading my message all redy saw it more than one.Why does everyone Hat Jar Jar,hes basically the only character in a Star Wars movie we can actually relate 2.And one mre thing
Yoda KICKS major ***!
ANd ep1 was awesome!:D

2-1B
05-19-2002, 11:41 AM
stillakid
What's missing is any sense that Palpatine is involved in pushing Anakin to the dark side. The kid is doing it all on his bi-polar own.

I disagree. :)
There's a scene where Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he thinks Palpatine is a good man, despite Kenobi's warnings. Later when speaking with Palps, the future Emperor is undermining his training by telling him he needs no guidance and that he should follow his feelings. And when he does follow his feelings in a moment of pain, he goes too far. :(

stillakid
05-19-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


I disagree. :)
There's a scene where Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he thinks Palpatine is a good man, despite Kenobi's warnings. Later when speaking with Palps, the future Emperor is undermining his training by telling him he needs no guidance and that he should follow his feelings. And when he does follow his feelings in a moment of pain, he goes too far. :(

Exactly. It's one scene. Just one. The entire rest of the movie is Anakin going through mood shifts bigger than a woman in menopause. He's not being turned to the darkside by extraneous forces (ie, Palpatine) rather by his whiny teenage like behavior (ie, "It's not fair). I expect that in Ep III we'll see Palpatine recognize Anakin's state of mind and move to exploit it, but aside from a mention in AOTC, we don't witness any true influence that Palpatine has over Anakin and the path he chooses. Just like in TPM, it's all heresay and that's poor storytelling. In other words, "show me," don't tell me.

Tycho
05-19-2002, 02:36 PM
I think it's supposed to go this way. I also think I saw indications that Mace could be an inside-bad guy. If so the Sith have two options with regards to Anakin and "balance in the Force."

Kill him

or

turn him.


In escorting Amidala, surely if they'd stayed on Naboo, at one point or another, they'd be a target for whoever Palpatine wanted to make the next assasination attempt. He'd know exactly where Anakin was and get rid of him. I don't think it was a priority in the Sith plans at this time though: the key thing was getting Padme away from the Military Creation Act. The point was they were deadlocked 50-50, or 500,000 to 500,000. Naboo was a key LEADER in the opposition to the Military Creation Act. Padme said she worked for a year to DEFEAT it. If she's out of the way, in less than a week, JARJAR has completely reversed Naboo's position. That's what Palpatine wanted! JarJar plays the fool, but he's the only one ELECTED to represent Naboo that's still there on Coruscant. Dorme (posing as Padme) could act like her, but she was not elected like Padme, and it would be illegal for her to take the vote. I'd wondered why she wasn't in Naboo's senate box when JarJar reversed their position. If she was, and people thought she was the senior senator, then JarJar would not be allowed to speak. But again, it was illegal for Dorme to take the vote. Palpatine's a genius (and all the while pretending he doesn't want to create a military until he has it set up so the Jedi will take the blame for using the Clones!)

See the E3 spoiler section for continuation of where this situation might lead us. It's 'safe' now, as there is no E3 script, but the speculation will go down there because as soon as we can get a script, we'll love to prove it!

Meanwhile, Anakin will be protecting Padme on Naboo, where he can be assasinated with her, maybe. If that's a goal for the Sith at the moment. BUT, how can they when Anakin unpredictably takes them to Tatooine? Then he gets mixed up in the whole Geonosis thing!

So, they kill Anakin in the arena and remove the threat of a Chosen One, or he survives, and by design Mace Windu does, and Anakin still must obey Mace's orders, since he's a Jedi Master.

Watching Mace though, he seems too quick to please Palpatine, and he also would inform the senate that the Jedi weakened, making it possible for pirates, gangs, other enemies to weed off more Jedi. Remember, if there are 10,000 Jedi, probably Master and Apprentice teams on thousands of separatist worlds (linked by military / trade treaties like Italy was linked to Nazi Germany in WWII, or England had to defend France in the same war), these separated Jedi on 5,000 worlds could be more easily killed by bounty hunters, assasins, traps laid by people like Tarkin (who must be around somewhere), but to the Sith, anything's better than facing a temple of 10,000 of them all at once!

The book "Before the Storm" covers some of that as they try to get rid of Luminara and Bariss, but Obi-Wan and Anakin intervene (though it's a terribly BORING book!)

But anyway, right now Anakin might be assasinated OR he will at least be under Mace Windu's control. It is by sheer convenience that Palpatine recognizes the Dark Side in Anakin and in E3 he will exploit it.

Anakin is already resentful of the Jedi because they separated him from his mom (he couldn't have gone back - but to do what? Uproot all the Lars or get Shmi a divorce? Were Owen and Beru going to live in the Jedi temple too? Shmi had a life. In life, bad stuff happens...) and Anakin takes his frustration out on Obi-Wan because he's his master and 'parent' Anakin rebels against. This comes to a head when Padme falls out of the gunship. Brilliant scene! Anakin gets in Obi-Wan's face, and then he won't listen to his Master and charges Dooku and gets what he deserved (the lightning and maybe the arm, too. He IS a slow learner ;) )

But everything is proceeding as I have forseen. Ha-hah-heh-heh-haa!

darthvyn
05-19-2002, 03:59 PM
i feel that, although he is obviously getting some pushes from palpatine, anakin's fall is mainly due to things beyond his control... it's his fate to be the chosen one, and part of this fate is that all this crap happens to him. he falls in love (even though he's not supposed to,) and his mother dies, and he can't do anything about this. this all leads to him turning. how this is his fate, or more to the point the prophecy of the chosen one, has to do with the balance of the force... i believe that all the jedi think the prophecy is a good thing, but in actuality it is not. yoda says in menace "only two there are, no more no less" about the sith. and how many fully trained jedi are there in a new hope and empire?

two.

that's the balance. two jedi, two sith. so, he is the chosen one to bring balance to the force, but this prophecy is good for the sith, not the jedi...

Tycho
05-19-2002, 04:09 PM
Exactly! - and Obi-Wan dies, as Luke rises under Yoda's apprenticeship.

Then Yoda dies, Anakin fulfills the prophesy all too well - killing Palpatine and dying himself, leaving only Luke.

So then which of the Sith survived?

Does Darth Tyranus or Mace Windu escape destruction at the end of the Prequel Trilogy? Or is there one more character to be introduced in Episode 3?

George once said that he could do 7,8,& 9 with a character that survived the prequel trilogy - one who would have to train an apprentice to confront Luke Skywalker as a Jedi Master. But he didn't think he'd do these because the whole 6 part story was about ANAKIN Skywalker.

But think how cool a movie series with Mark Hamill against Samuel L. Jackson could be?

And their apprentices: either Jedi Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker, versus someone else Mace Windu or Count Dooku has trained.

NailBunny
05-19-2002, 04:52 PM
Exactly. It's one scene. Just one. The entire rest of the movie is Anakin going through mood shifts bigger than a woman in menopause. He's not being turned to the darkside by extraneous forces (ie, Palpatine) rather by his whiny teenage like behavior (ie, "It's not fair).


Lucas has stated that he doesn't want people to see a direct connection between Anakin and Palpatine at all.

How he plans to clue the audience in to this tidbit every fan already knows about I have no clue.

Tycho
05-19-2002, 05:35 PM
Yes, but Anakin is a real person, and most of us went through mood swings as teenagers. I left my parents when I was 15. I had enough of their guidance.

I didn't have the discipline or training of the normal Jerry Springer family, and Anakin didn't have 9 years of Jedi Training to control his instinctive emotions we all have as children.

That's disciplined out of Jedi kids at a very early age. See how obedient the Jedi youth were?

Anakin had none of that, plus early ties and loyalties to his mother and Padme established in a movie a lot of you don't think was necessary. Here it was (The Phantom Menace) and a lot of you still don't get it.

The "It's not fair!" line was done deliberately to show that Anakin doesn't understand this either. He "wants to waste time with his friends before his chores are done."

Obi-Wan seems ill-equipped to guide him about his dreams about his mother and his feelings for Padme. Concerned, but still you see him going to Yoda and Mace for advice during the movie.

Kernel
05-19-2002, 05:42 PM
Interesting about Mace Windu being a double agent...

darthvyn
05-19-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
You know what it feels like to me? Like Ep 1 left us starving for Star Wars for 3 years, and AOTC is a loaf of white bread. It's bread that, as starving people, we'll lap up and enjoy how the texture seems so much better than starving, but on its own, you wouldn't want to eat so much of because there's little food value or flavor to it - and eating this whole loaf makes you feel kinda ooky.

okay, so it is opinion, but you started out with what it feels like to you, then you said ep. 1 left US starving for more. so you are projecting your opinion onto others... just an observation as to why the next post was so dismisive...

darthvyn
05-19-2002, 07:24 PM
i like the rumor i've heard about mace windu in ep III and his supposed dispatcher. i think that's a post for a spoilers section (i'm not too knowledgable on the whole spoiler/theory line), though. i don't know if i want him to survive or not... i mean, sam jackson is too cool, but at the same time, it would be cool to see him become one with the force or something.

stillakid
05-19-2002, 08:40 PM
I just got back from my second viewing. No real changes in my initial opinions. It didn't seem quite so scattered this time around, but then again, I was already aware of the basic plot structure.

Anakin is even more uneven than I previously thought. His rantings erupt frequently without cause. Inexplicably, Padme taunts him by saying that he's not a Jedi yet, but in the previous scene to that, she says that he is. :confused:

I think the biggest thing bothering me at this point is Padme's attraction to Anakin. First off, she magically recognizes him as Anakin, even though this older version looks absolutely nothing like the little kid in TPM. (Schmi does it too!) So, after Padme pulls that rabbit out of the hat and leaves the room, Anakin whines and says to Jar Jar that "she didn't even recognize me" or something to that effect. What?!:confused: Bizarre. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But I digress. The kid is bipolar, moods bouncing from one extreme to the other. One moment he's putting the moves on her...the next, he's cursing out Obi Wan...then back again ("I know"). Shoot, maybe she's attracted to moody guys, what do I know, but if it were me, I'd keep clear of a guy like that. You'd never know when his fuse would get lit again. There is at no time any indication of any reason she should like him beyond that fact that they have some kind of distant history together. Even that was fleeting. So, her motivation for "falling in love" with Anakin is non-existent and she has more reason to not like him in the first place.

The frolicing the fields didn't bother me so much but that ridiculous dialogue by the fireplace makes me want to go out and burn all the Danielle Steele novels that exist. Acckkck Thhppt! What was it he said? "My soul is tormented" or something? Oh brother. :rolleyes: Who talks like that?

The arena battle is silly as I've mentioned. The "James Bond" death scene is there to give the heroes a chance to escape. Gunray actually speaks the words I'm thinking: "Shoot them!" Yeah. Why not? :rolleyes: Stupid. Somebody mentioned a cutscene of a trial that came before that. Trial? What in blazes for?

Darth Knight
05-19-2002, 08:53 PM
Hi, In my opinion I don't think that Mace is a double agent. No where did i see Mace being to quick to please Palpatine in Episode II. Maybe i'm to blind to see the Dark Side. This is something we will have to wait and see in the next movie.

Tycho
05-19-2002, 09:15 PM
The trial scene charges Anakin and Padme with espionage.

Dooku explains why there is a separatist movement, and Padme urges him to return to supporting the Republic and democracy. She says a good line about business not influencing government, but rather that their unholy alliance represents business becoming government.

Representatives from Enron were supposed to be let out of the investigative hearings just to do that scene...

Anyway, Dooku then tells Padme that if Naboo were to join the separatists on her authority (she isn't Queen and doesn't have that authority any more in the first place) than the Geonosians would respect their new allies' wishes and immediately free Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Padme refuses, and they are told that they can join Obi-Wan.

The scene does further explain how the Sith are destroying democracy and showing its real flaws in the system. It makes the opening title scroll make sense and apply more to the story.

And it gives us a REASON why Anakin and Padme are tied to that cart and brought out to become pet food.

All in all, it is the second most important scene that Lucas never should have cut.

The first is Padme's family. She returns to her home in the lake country and her mother and sisters pick up on how much Anakin is interested in her. Padme's the youngest I think... maybe not. Her sisters are married though and have kids of their own. Padme rethinks dedicating her life to politics and considers her mother and sisters teasing her about Anakin being the right one. Meanwhile, Anakin takes a walk with Padme's father and learns that he is more understanding that "Anakin's surrogate father, Obi-Wan" and he likes Anakin and Mr. Naberrie tells him that he feels better if Anakin were to never leave his daughter's side. Anakin takes this as a cause to renew trying to reach Padme. So she's then already considering it by the time they kiss by the lake.

She does note he's a psycopath, but she's trapped with him on the Lars homestead by the time he's killed the Tuskens - and maybe she thinks they sound like animals too. She knows he did just lose his own MOTHER! Not justification for what HE did, but... And in any case, getting him back with his master is probably the best plan. She knows the Jedi will protect her, and Obi-Wan is likely the only one SHE knows that can handle Anakin and what he's going through. So she does want to get him help. She CARES. Meanwhile, she also cares about Obi-Wan and rescuing him, because it is the right thing to do. She is trained for combat (as we saw in E1) and Anakin is the most capable of helping his master the fastest.

I think the story works but the lost scenes would have really helped. So what if the movie is 10 minutes longer??!!

Tycho
05-19-2002, 09:21 PM
As to Mace:

the prophesy is a dark one. Perhaps "balance in the Force" means that there are equal numbers of Sith as there are Jedi.

Well, if there are 2 Sith, and as far as the Jedi know, one was killed (Maul), wouldn't you stand a better (50-50) chance of being one of the Sith left if you turned than being amongst the 10,000 Jedi all of which 9,998 were going to die. Those odds are not good!

"The odds of successfully surviving a Jedi Purge is approximately 4,999 to 1!"

So many Jedi might turn to the Dark Side and vie to be the Dark Lord of the Sith.

The Chosen One must choose his side as well!

For 22 years Anakin does choose a side.

And there are 2 Jedi: Yoda and Obi-Wan, and 2 Sith - Vader and Palpatine.

Then there is only Luke...

Makes you wonder who is the last Sith?

Wolfwood319
05-19-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Makes you wonder who is the last Sith?

William Shatner, as the evil....Darth Darth!

:crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed:

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
05-19-2002, 09:40 PM
I too voted that I really loved the movie. I saw it last night (Sat 5/18) at 10:45pm in a nearly filled Regal Theatre in Williamsville, NY. I decided to see it on a whim. My nonStar Wars appreciative (okay seminonappreciative) brother and our friend wanted to see a movie last night after work and I, kinda tired, said I really didn't feel like it. I was surprised that they wanted to see AOTC because I knew they had been previously talking about seeing Spiderman. I wanted to see it with my other brother who is a Star Wars enthusiast but he was out with his woman. After I decided to go, I gave him a ring and left a message on his answering machine, letting him know the time and location of the showing, hoping maybe that if he came home early, that he would get the message and maybe come and meet me (This was like less than 45 minutes before the showing).

Well, sure enough, I arrive at the cinema and who do I run into, but my brother, his girlfriend and her brother who had seen the movie twice before. It turns out they never got the message, but he picked that same showing and location.

The movie was pretty well balanced as far as emotion, action and drama and dialogue. It didn't seem too hokey or child friendly as as TPM was. The love scenes between Padme and Anakin were bearable. They weren't too sappy and Hayden's acting wasn't as horrible as I have heard from many people. His character left much to hate about him, and that is maybe one reason why people are tearing him apart. We get a feel about how volatile his character can be and how rebellious his young mind is, despite the fact that he is training to be a Jedi and he should be following the Jedi code. This sets it up perfectly for Ep3 and his eventual transformation to the Dark Side.

The Coruscant scenes were hustling and bustling. Lucas and crew did a great job with those scenes. The Jedi fight scenes at the end were exciting and yes, Yoda did kick booty. Don't let his walking cane and limp fool you! He still has some spunk left in him :evil:

And even though the two people I walked out of the theatre hated it (I think they were smoking the hippie lettuce) I know that Lucas and company did a much better job in the overall direction of AOTC than they had in TPM. You can bet I will see this movie again sometime soon. ;)

stillakid
05-19-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Lowly Bantha Cleaner
They weren't too sappy and Hayden's acting wasn't as horrible as I have heard from many people. His character left much to hate about him, and that is maybe one reason why people are tearing him apart. We get a feel about how volatile his character can be and how rebellious his young mind is, despite the fact that he is training to be a Jedi and he should be following the Jedi code. This sets it up perfectly for Ep3 and his eventual transformation to the Dark Side.



The problem isn't that he is volatile. The problem is that there isn't sufficient motivation for him to be volatile at the moments that he exhibits those qualities. He frequently goes off half-cocked about Obi Wan for no apparent reason. I agree, he should be somewhat volatile, but it is the storyteller's responsibility to provide adequate motivation for anything a character does and those reasons aren't entirely clear in AOTC.

stillakid
05-19-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
The trial scene charges Anakin and Padme with espionage.

Dooku explains why there is a separatist movement, and Padme urges him to return to supporting the Republic and democracy. She says a good line about business not influencing government, but rather that their unholy alliance represents business becoming government.

Representatives from Enron were supposed to be let out of the investigative hearings just to do that scene...

Anyway, Dooku then tells Padme that if Naboo were to join the separatists on her authority (she isn't Queen and doesn't have that authority any more in the first place) than the Geonosians would respect their new allies' wishes and immediately free Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Padme refuses, and they are told that they can join Obi-Wan.

The scene does further explain how the Sith are destroying democracy and showing its real flaws in the system. It makes the opening title scroll make sense and apply more to the story.

And it gives us a REASON why Anakin and Padme are tied to that cart and brought out to become pet food.

All in all, it is the second most important scene that Lucas never should have cut.

The first is Padme's family. She returns to her home in the lake country and her mother and sisters pick up on how much Anakin is interested in her. Padme's the youngest I think... maybe not. Her sisters are married though and have kids of their own. Padme rethinks dedicating her life to politics and considers her mother and sisters teasing her about Anakin being the right one. Meanwhile, Anakin takes a walk with Padme's father and learns that he is more understanding that "Anakin's surrogate father, Obi-Wan" and he likes Anakin and Mr. Naberrie tells him that he feels better if Anakin were to never leave his daughter's side. Anakin takes this as a cause to renew trying to reach Padme. So she's then already considering it by the time they kiss by the lake.

She does note he's a psycopath, but she's trapped with him on the Lars homestead by the time he's killed the Tuskens - and maybe she thinks they sound like animals too. She knows he did just lose his own MOTHER! Not justification for what HE did, but... And in any case, getting him back with his master is probably the best plan. She knows the Jedi will protect her, and Obi-Wan is likely the only one SHE knows that can handle Anakin and what he's going through. So she does want to get him help. She CARES. Meanwhile, she also cares about Obi-Wan and rescuing him, because it is the right thing to do. She is trained for combat (as we saw in E1) and Anakin is the most capable of helping his master the fastest.

I think the story works but the lost scenes would have really helped. So what if the movie is 10 minutes longer??!!

Thanks for that. Is this all in the novelization or someplace else? Explanatory sequences like the one's you describe should definitely have been kept in.

Tycho
05-20-2002, 12:11 AM
Yes it is in the novelization, but this gets WORSE:

It was in the actual script - which I read before the movie came out from spoiler sources (remember the ones you questioned?)

Then it's included in The Art of Attack of the Clones, word for word, the same as my spoiler script (available at your local bookstore now).

And even WORSE: it was actually cast and FILMED! Final versions of these scenes were completed, some speculate, just to include on the DVD. But they were cut out of the movie showing in theaters now.

If you look on the official site at the cast of Episode 2, you'll see a lot of Naberries, such as Jobal Naberrie, Padme's mother, and do on (although the name I recall her father having sounded more feminine so I wonder if the report had their names mixed up and "Jobal" is her father, but I haven't time to look at the moment.) In any event, the characters of her mother, father, and sisters, and their kids were all cast. Hayden and Natalie filmed scenes with them. It totally lended credit to Padme falling for Anakin. Her family urged her to accept him. They only saw the good in him. They didn't see the other side of him that Padme saw. Plus they didn't know as much about the Jedi and the state of the galaxy as she did, I'm sure.

But I guess we'll get these scenes on the DVD. - and yes Christopher Lee and co. filmed the Trial scene, too! Shame we didn't see it.

But I still loved the movie!

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 12:28 AM
not only that, but i heard they filmed the entire tusken massacre... i morbidly would like to see that a lot...

as for the balance thing, at the end, not only is there luke, but there is leia that has just learned of her powers as well. now there are two again... it would be very interesting and cool to see the continuation... then as tycho pointed out on page 7, not only would the I-VI be about anakin, but IV-IX would be about luke... their stories would cross in the middle. i think that would be really cool. if they made a movie that was sort of like the dark empire comic, it would be awesome... it is too bad that lucas doesn't want to do them, although maybe there's the slightest chance that he'd let someone else do them... you know mark hamill would be right there, and i bet carrie fisher would do it too. we all know too well who wouldn't be there... a certain scruffy lookin' nerf herder.

2-1B
05-20-2002, 01:30 AM
It makes sense that Padme should recognize Anakin. The last time she saw Obi-Wan he had a new padawan in tow. While he looks different physically, it's a logical assumption. Anakin's insecurity leads to the perception that she hardly recognized him.

stillakid, in thinking about our disagreement about Palpatine's influence over Anakin, I have to consider Palps' temptation of Luke to "use your aggressive feelings, boy." I came away from AOTC with a hint of that. I get the sense that Palpatine's nudge will elevate to scapegoating in Ep III to really draw out Anakin's anger, probably based partly on events from AOTC.

I agree that the trial should have been included ! Five minutes of trial footage would have moved along seemingly much more quickly than even 15 seconds of the Threepio circus act. :D

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 10:36 AM
i was thinking she wasn't recognizing him, so much as assuming it was him, because he was with obi-wan, and she was surprised at how much he's grown - i mean, she says so right there:

"ani? you've grown!"

Darth Metalmute
05-20-2002, 02:10 PM
Tycho
(And there are 2 Jedi: Yoda and Obi-Wan, and 2 Sith - Vader and Palpatine.

Then there is only Luke...

Makes you wonder who is the last Sith?)

The only problem with this is that Yoda and Obi Wan die..... leaving 2 sith (Vader and the Palpatine) and one Jedi (Luke).
Except that Vader had 2 Jedi-sensitive children, Luke and Leia.

That would make it 2 to 2 leaving a perfect balance in the force.

Granted Leia wasn't trained but she did have the abilities to be a Jedi but she was used as a pawn against Luke to be trained as a sith in his place.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Darth Metalmute
Tycho
(And there are 2 Jedi: Yoda and Obi-Wan, and 2 Sith - Vader and Palpatine.

Then there is only Luke...

Makes you wonder who is the last Sith?)

The only problem with this is that Yoda and Obi Wan die..... leaving 2 sith (Vader and the Palpatine) and one Jedi (Luke).
Except that Vader had 2 Jedi-sensitive children, Luke and Leia.

That would make it 2 to 2 leaving a perfect balance in the force.

Granted Leia wasn't trained but she did have the abilities to be a Jedi but she was used as a pawn against Luke to be trained as a sith in his place.

The entire line of reasoning is silly. Leia has been alive just as long as Luke has. So during ANH, using this line of logic, there were 4 "good" or potential Jedi and two bad. At the very least, 3 (Luke, Obi and Yoda). But if you're only including "trained" Jedi, then when Ben dies, Luke can't be regarded as being trained. If he is, then there are 3 Jedi while Ben is still alive. You just end up going in circles.

So, what the hay is this balance of the Force supposed to be about again? :eek:

Casual George
05-20-2002, 02:25 PM
You don't think that's how it felt to me? Do you know me better than I know myself? I thought I plainly stated my opinion and stated it as such, so I'm a bit surprised that I'm wrong and it's not my opinion after all.

I was just stating my opinion. I wasn't trying to tell you that yours was wrong. I loved the film. For me, it was great. Didn't mean for you to take it wrong. :)

Needles
05-20-2002, 02:39 PM
I thought Episode 2 rocked! My favorite character is Anakin because he acted great! My favorite sceen is when Mace Windu chopped off Jango Fetts head. Im Needles friend Alex:)

SithDroid
05-20-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Anakin is even more uneven than I previously thought. His rantings erupt frequently without cause. Inexplicably, Padme taunts him by saying that he's not a Jedi yet, but in the previous scene to that, she says that he is. :confused:

I agree. These outbursts are not caused by anything and even when they are it is completely irrelevant to what is being discussed.


Originally posted by stillakid
I think the biggest thing bothering me at this point is Padme's attraction to Anakin. First off, she magically recognizes him as Anakin, even though this older version looks absolutely nothing like the little kid in TPM. (Schmi does it too!) So, after Padme pulls that rabbit out of the hat and leaves the room, Anakin whines and says to Jar Jar that "she didn't even recognize me" or something to that effect. What?!:confused: Bizarre. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I agree. Did they even PROOFREAD the dang script? She recognized him immediately and he says she didn't. What is GL smoking?


Originally posted by stillakid
But I digress. The kid is bipolar, moods bouncing from one extreme to the other. One moment he's putting the moves on her...the next, he's cursing out Obi Wan...then back again ("I know"). Shoot, maybe she's attracted to moody guys, what do I know, but if it were me, I'd keep clear of a guy like that. You'd never know when his fuse would get lit again. There is at no time any indication of any reason she should like him beyond that fact that they have some kind of distant history together. Even that was fleeting. So, her motivation for "falling in love" with Anakin is non-existent and she has more reason to not like him in the first place.

I agree completely. Why is she attracted to him at all? It has been 10 years since they last saw each other and then over the span of a couple of days they confess their love for each other? What? :confused: Plus I don't really see any kind of redeeming qualities in him at all. Plus Like I've said before, nothing turns women on more than admitting that you are a cold blooded killer (Anakin telling Padme that he killed ALL the Tusken Raiders.) That part he should have kept to himself. I just don't think she would fall for him seeing the way he acts in this.


Originally posted by stillakid
The frolicing the fields didn't bother me so much but that ridiculous dialogue by the fireplace makes me want to go out and burn all the Danielle Steele novels that exist. Acckkck Thhppt! What was it he said? "My soul is tormented" or something? Oh brother. :rolleyes: Who talks like that?

Couldn't agree more. Even worse is the dialogue between the two before they are taken into the arena when Padme says, "I've been dying a little each day not being with you," or something to that effect. Cheesy and unrealistic. No one talks like that.

Overall the movie was pretty decent. Seeing Yoda in action is worth the price of admission. However, I can't wait till this comes out on DVD so I can zip right through the boring love scenes.

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
So, what the hay is this balance of the Force supposed to be about again? :eek:

the prophecy of balance doesn't mean that the balance is maintained throughout the OT. the prophecy states that at a certain point in time, the chosen one will bring balance to the force, not that the balance will remain. so, therefore, anakin becomes vader, kills all the jedi except for two, so at that time there are two sith and two jedi. we're talking about fully trained jedi and sith, not anyone who might have any force powers. i don't think that my line of reasoning is silly. anyone else?

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Did they even PROOFREAD the dang script? She recognized him immediately and he says she didn't. What is GL smoking?

i still maintain that she made a perfectly logical assumption in calling him ani, as whe knows that he is being trained by obi-wan, and is in actuality visibly surprised by his appearance...

"ani? you've grown..."

she seems more surprised that this is the same person she knew ten years ago, rather than somehow miraculously realizing that this is anakin. i feel his whining about her not recognizing him is about him feeling like they have grown too far apart.

it's like an aunt who hasn't seen you in a long time. they recognize you, but at the same time, you aren't the same person, and they are surprised at how different you are... i realize this brings a whole new aproach to the incestuous plot lines we all know and squirm about in star wars, (luke and leia? ewww...) but it's an explanation...

Tycho
05-20-2002, 03:19 PM
Darthvyn, you could be right. It's open to interpretation. But I do think the prophesy recognized TRAINED Jedi, so Princess Leia didn't count.

Obi-Wan, Yoda, vs. Sidious, Vader

Luke, Yoda, vs. Sidious, Vader

Luke vs. Sidious, Vader

Luke vs. Vader (well, technically he was Anakin and on the Light Side at this point).

Balance in the Force.

However, at the start of this, Obi-Wan, Yoda, vs. Sidious, Vader, the Force is balanced.

NOW AS FOR CHEESY DIALOGUE?

No way! It is Shakespearean, directly. Or a little attempt at it. The "I pray the kiss you never should have given me will not become a scar." etc. would be great in a Romeo and Juliet piece.

That too is looked upon as legendary romance in mythology in a way (Romeo and Juliet).

Which brings up an E3 speculation: will Padme kill herself?

I find it hard to believe she'd do so with a daughter to take care of, but perhaps she blames herself for allowing Palpatine to rise to power (since Episode One).

In Romeo and Juliet, Juliet is forbidden to marry Romeo, so she takes a sleeping potion that fakes her death and she is placed in the family tomb. Romeo runs to rescue her, but believes Juliet is dead, and Romeo kills himself.

[Cut to Star Wars - Anakin is protecting Palpatine, learns that Padme has 'died,' (probably Palpatine going behind his back to finally get rid of her) - he's just lost his unborn child and his beloved wife (in his mind) when Obi-Wan rushes in and says he has to back off from Palpatine. Obi-Wan needs to kill the Supreme Chancellor because he's the Dark Lord of the Sith. Anakin thinks Obi-Wan is crazy, plus he's enraged that by doing his duty, he lost his mother and now Padme and his child. Anakin unleashes on Obi-Wan (he has to protect the Chancellor anyway), they duel and Obi-Wan wins because Anakin gives up. He allows himself to be 'killed' because he's lost everything and deep inside he might know Palpatine's evil - they are probably in his lair in the firey, molten bowels of Coruscant's underworld - going down into mythology's Hell so to speak), so Anakin let's himself be killed like Romeo.

Padme later learns of this and that tragedy, not to mention the fact that her son, Luke, was taken away from her by the Jedi to continue fighting in this war, and her daughter will be safe with the 'Loyalists' and Organa, means she has no responsibility save for having created an Empire for someone who's trying to kill her.]

Cut back to Romeo and Juliet. When Juliet awakens from the potion she's taken, she finds Romeo - the whole reason she went into a coma for - dead at her feet. Sacraficed for his love for her. Juliet takes Romeo's blade and impales herself upon it. They die - "their love for each other destroyed both their lives."

Padme, without Anakin (presumed dead), her son taken away as a Jedi, her daughter given a royal title with which to fight this evil, and Padme left responsible for creating that evil that took her husband's life (probably her home planet's too), kills herself.

Don't like it? George said we would NOT like Episode 3. He doesn't care. That's the way the story could go. That's really dark, isn't it?

But Shakespeare fans: did you want Juliet's plan to work and them to live happily ever after? It wouldn't have been as memorable, nor a sacrafice for the true love between Romeo and Juliet.

But the Shakespearean dialogue imitation by the fireplace on Naboo and in the executioner's cart on Geonosis, goes with this notion.

The trouble I have with it is that Padme seems too strong to just give up and kill herself. It might have to get worse than that. And I mean even worse than Naboo being completely destroyed. Her family, etc. I don't know, maybe that would be enough. But wouldn't it push her to seek revenge? Maybe she saw enough of that gone wrong in her husband. I don't know.

Last but not least, would Lucas show or infer a suicide in a movie in a series watched by more children than any other picture in all of cinema history? I did ask about inferring it. They don't have to show Padme do it to have it happen and find her body later in some scene. But wow!

The Shakespeare references would then all really make sense. So the dialogue might be serving a purpose!

Rogue II
05-20-2002, 03:49 PM
I don't know about that. I think that the Emperor will have Padme killed to drive Anakin to the dark side. But that would be too simple and not very Shakespearean.

Mandalorian Candidat
05-20-2002, 04:25 PM
Holy freak! How many people have already voted on this poll? About 3K? Looks like I'm the last one in the pool (saw it first on 5/18).

I have to see it again to make up my mind. I may change my opinion down the line, but the first half of the movie was not that great except for the OB1 vs. Jango mano-a-mano and dogfights and the speeder chase. Once it got to the part with OB1 in Dooku's trap, it was gold from then on (though the ending was different than I expected).

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 04:33 PM
dude, tycho, that's f'n great... i do love tradgedy... although i think hamlet's the best. what if padme went insane and threw herself off a water fall on naboo LOL, and then anakin starts talking crazy: "alas, poor sio bibble, i knew him, boba..." poisoned lightsabers, anyone?

seriously, though, that should be turned into a treatment. just add a buch of jedis biting it...

i still like the idea of palpatine ordering padme's demise, though. maybe he makes it look like obi-wan's fault, and that's why anakin hates him... maybe boba fett is contracted by palpatine to do it... although that puts a crimp in the idea of anakin and boba fighting the jedi together.

Rogue II
05-20-2002, 04:33 PM
This movie wasn't what I expected either, but then again, I wasn't sure what to expect.

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
But I do think the prophesy recognized TRAINED Jedi, so Princess Leia didn't count.

i didn't say anything about leia... i think that was someone else...

daytrip903
05-20-2002, 04:38 PM
Good movie needed more action out of Jango and a better lightsaber performance out of Dooku. Maybe Lee was too old to do it?

Rogue II
05-20-2002, 04:42 PM
Oh, good, I'm not the only one that the lightsaber duel was all that great (not counting Yoda).

Tycho
05-20-2002, 04:43 PM
Daytrip, watch it again. I once thought as you do. But now my failure is complete.

They used a stunt double for Christopher Lee I'm sure and he spins and deflects nicely.

The last time we met, I was watching Obi-Wan. Now I watch the Master!

SithDroid
05-20-2002, 04:51 PM
I like your take on the Shakespeare SW Tycho, however I don't think that it will play out this way. After all Leia in ROTJ says that she remembered her mother and that she died while she was quite young. Most memory in a child begins around the age of 3, although I believe even earlier because I remember stuff since I was one, but 3 is the typical age memory begins to fully develop. So if she gives birth in EP II then it would have to be at least another 3 years until she dies. I think Padme will live, but perhaps the Emperor makes a Clone of her and sacrifices that clone and Anakin only sees the "body" of Padme destroyed. That is a possibility. Plus Amaidala has many servants/decoys that look quite similar to her, especially Sabe in EP I that the Emperor could use. I'm guessing that one of these two would be more likely than Padme actually killing herself.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
I like your take on the Shakespeare SW Tycho, however I don't think that it will play out this way. After all Leia in ROTJ says that she remembered her mother and that she died while she was quite young. Most memory in a child begins around the age of 3, although I believe even earlier because I remember stuff since I was one, but 3 is the typical age memory begins to fully develop. So if she gives birth in EP II then it would have to be at least another 3 years until she dies. I think Padme will live, but perhaps the Emperor makes a Clone of her and sacrifices that clone and Anakin only sees the "body" of Padme destroyed. That is a possibility. Plus Amaidala has many servants/decoys that look quite similar to her, especially Sabe in EP I that the Emperor could use. I'm guessing that one of these two would be more likely than Padme actually killing herself.


In order to preserve the surprise of Leia and Luke's relationship throughout the OT, EP III MUST end without showing the children. We know she's pregnant, but that's as far as it can go. She can even give birth, so long as no details are given concerning that. Which leads to Padme's fate. As you say, Leia "remembers" her, so conceivably, her death should occur between Ep III and IV and importantly, it doesn't really need to be in any dramatic way. Once she has the kids, her role (the character) is over and done with. She could die right then and there except for Leia's dialogue in ROTJ. But then again, GL doesn't mind blowing continuity every now and then as we've seen.

Tycho
05-20-2002, 05:33 PM
True Stillakid,

but I think they need to show Obi-Wan getting Luke and going to Tatooine and the Lars' place.

Also establishing that even he doesn't know that there were twins at this point. That knowledge was kept with Yoda.

yngadult
05-20-2002, 05:39 PM
Overrall, great movie - love the action scenes. The Anakin / Padme scenes were about as bearable as Jar Jar in TPM.
When Anakin was in her room while she packed, his mood erupted into anger. I would be concerned if he was manic. One can blame it on the actor,or, the script. I didn't understand his flow of conversation when he went from sharing what was forbidden to compassion and being encouraged to love. It just seemes disjointed. Either that, or his facial expressions did not reflect what he was saying. Again, this could just be bad acting.

I understand his journey leads him to become Darth Vader, but, his portrayal in AOTC makes him out to have psychiatric problems. His temper flairs would make me concerned if he would have the potential to be a wife batterer, or definitely a danger to others. This is confirmed when he kills an entire village including women and children.

For Amidala to fall in love even after hearing of his homicidal actions reflects poorly on her judgement. Would you want your daughter to love this guy?

Somehow they could have done a better job in making the love affair seem more real than unhealthy.
They could also have done a better job in making Anakin out to be a bad *** Jedi instead of an arrogant brat.
One of the greatest characteristics of a spiritual person is humility. Anakin lacks that and Obi should have pointed that flaw out when Ani hinted he was the greatest of all Jedi. Yoda recognized that flaw. Obi's inability to diffuse Ani's arrogance reflects Obi's limitation as a Master. This is evident when he takes on Dooku who also feels Obi is overrated.
I think GL had the right plot in mind Lucifer's arrogance in believing he was better than God led to his fall and Adam's desire to be like God led to his fall. Anakin is following a similar path as tempted along by Palpatine. It just wasn't portrayed well enough by Christiansen. Heck, the guy who does the Dell commercials could probably have done a better job. :)

darthvyn
05-20-2002, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
Plus Amaidala has many servants/decoys that look quite similar to her, especially Sabe in EP I that the Emperor could use. I'm guessing that one of these two would be more likely than Padme actually killing herself.

okay, now THAT is soap opera. anakin is a smart guy AND a jedi, so i don't think he'll be fooled by that... as for the surprise of twins, is is lucas' intention for that to remain a surprise after ep. III? i thought that was one reason for doing the OT first... i think it will be necessary to see the birth (not like the biology films, but you know what i mean...) but i do like the idea of seeing ben spirit away luke...

Tycho
05-20-2002, 06:04 PM
Then, in an echo of TPM, there will be a scene when a 4 year old Luke asks Obi-Wan:

"Master Obi-Wan, I heard Uncle Owen talking about babies. Where do babies come from?"

Isn't everyone looking forward to an Episode 3.9 just so they can cover this?

plasticfetish
05-20-2002, 06:33 PM
Tycho's comparative essay on Lucas vs. Shakespeare was pretty good. It's no secret that Lucas is a big fan of retelling classic stories ... it is, all "flaws" aside, what makes us love these movies.
In defense of "cheesy dialogue" ... what IS wrong with cheesy dialog? I don't think I'd have it any other way ... the comparison again to classic story telling insists that the voices and the words appeal to the most common denominator. Sometimes we common folk say cheesy things, no big crime.

This issue of the Force and "balance" ... maybe it's just me, but I always interpreted balance to mean something other that numbers. More to do with the spirit of the thing, order versus chaos if you will ... Anakin fathers Luke and in the end helps to destroy the emperor and the dark side. He leaves behind his son who I always saw as being not too good and not too evil ... perhaps, an every-man type blend of both. (Someone we all can and I'd say do identify with, because of his convictions and his flaws.)

chrisc
05-20-2002, 10:30 PM
I like what Kernal said on page 1 post #3. thats exactly what I have been thinking all along. We should be thankful he made the movies for us.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-20-2002, 11:40 PM
I liked the movie. In terms of complaints, I don't really have any other than sensory overload. A few more viewings should help cure that, as I will become more familiar with the movie. I sort of felt the same way with Episode I but that was nothing compared to this. I liked Episode I and Jar Jar didn't bother me much, but I thought he seemed more annoying in this film despite his reduced role.

Yoda was definitely the highlight of the film. I would like to have heard some dialogue from the other Jedi, but I guess they're all going to die so no sense in getting too attached to them.

Now that I've seen the movie, I'm kind of wondering about the Tusken Raider Female with Child action figure. Now kids can act out what wasn't shown in the movie. Have the Anakin action figure slaughter the Tusken Raider women and children.

I can't really pick a favorite movie. I like each one for a different reason. In the end, it will be all one story.

May the Force be with you all.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
True Stillakid,

but I think they need to show Obi-Wan getting Luke and going to Tatooine and the Lars' place.

Also establishing that even he doesn't know that there were twins at this point. That knowledge was kept with Yoda.

That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered, Yoda showing up first to the birthing room. Makes sense as one would expect him to be the one to see the larger implications.

This is probably getting into the EP III threads, but consider this scene:

Bloodied and weary from his battle with Anakin*, Obi Wan arrives on Naboo where Padme has just given birth. As he approaches the doors to the palace, an entourage passes him by quickly. Obi Wan recognizes only one of the faces, one of the politicians that he abhores. Bail Organa meets Obi Wan's eyes for a brief moment then returns his attention to the mysterious floating cart behind him. The entourage continues on toward the landing platform as Obi Wan climbs the steps. One final look back by the exhausted Jedi to see the Senator's ship blast off into the darkness of space.

Obi Wan is met at the door by his own Master, Yoda. He is grim, yet hopeful at the same time. The ancient Jedi listens to Obi Wan's tale, about the fight with Anakin. Yoda instructs Obi Wan to take the baby in the other room and hide it, far away. With the Jedi all but defeated, Obi Wan is also instructed to remain in exile with the child of Skywalker, keeping watch to await the day when it will be needed.

Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi look out into the stars and into the uncertain future.

ROLL CREDITS


*The FIGHT

Anakin and Obi Wan have a nasty duel. Much flashier than the Maul/Kenobi fight. Much more skilled than the Yoda/Dooka match. This battle calls for every Jedi skill yet invented. It is clear that it is a stalemate. Both contestant's are equal in power, equal in skill. Only a mistake will cost one of them the advantage.

That mistake comes for Anakin. His impatience and irrational nature allow Obi Wan to strike in the blink of an eye. Still arrogant, Anakin refuses to believe that he has been caught off guard and tries to continue on. Obi Wan is forced to beat his Padawan down.

Near death and maimed nearly beyond recognition, Anakin seethes pure contempt at his Master who stands over him, lightsaber ablaze. Not a word passes between them, but the messages are all too clear. Obi Wan's realization of his own failure is nothing compared to the fantastic evil written in the eyes of his foe. Obi Wan turns off his blade as Anakin's eyes flutter and then close. The wounded Jedi limps out of the room leaving Anakin's beaten body lying in it's own pool of blood.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:01 AM
The previous does the following things:

1) Leaves the fate of Anakin up in the air. Dead or alive? Can't tell, but it could go either way. As a result, the mysterious caped figure that steps through the door in ANH remains a mysterious caped figure until The Empire Strikes Back, just as originally intended.

2) Maintains the secrecy of the Twins intact, while (hopefully) subtley hinting that there might be "another." That's done with the Bail element leaving the palace.

3) Preserves the surprise of Old Ben in ANH. We don't know where Obi Wan is taking the baby, so when the story takes us to Tatooine in Ep IV, there is no reason to suspect A) that the whiny kid who wanted to go into Tosche Station to pick up some power convertors is a Skywalker, and B) that Old Ben is Obi Wan in exile.

4) And, Yoda's fate is left up in the air, so it is a moderate surprise to find out in ESB that the Master remained alive through the purge.

DarthBrandon
05-21-2002, 12:01 AM
Stiillakid, you and Tyco should get together and help George write the next script, I bet it would be far more interesting than his. hehe really liked your last post.

2-1B
05-21-2002, 01:43 AM
3) Preserves the surprise of Old Ben in ANH. We don't know where Obi Wan is taking the baby, so when the story takes us to Tatooine in Ep IV, there is no reason to suspect A) that the whiny kid who wanted to go into Tosche Station to pick up some power convertors is a Skywalker, and B) that Old Ben is Obi Wan in exile.

Good point, Ben never refers to him as a Skywalker in that scene, does he? I really can't remember offhand . . . but even still, Luke does introduce himself as Luke Skywalker to Leia.

Another thought . . . Now that we've seen the homestead in AOTC, I don't think they can conceal it since Owen and Beru are the parental figures of Luke . . .

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


Good point, Ben never refers to him as a Skywalker in that scene, does he? I really can't remember offhand . . . but even still, Luke does introduce himself as Luke Skywalker to Leia.

Right. If I'm remembering correctly, we just know him as Luke until the rescue scene. Then, it's ironic or appropo or something that his last name is only then revealed to the audience.

Like I said, this can be done without disturbing the OT too much, but with all of the heavy-handed foreshadowing Lucas is throwing into these prequels, it won't matter anyway.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 03:46 AM
How about this:

The Clone Wars have raged on for 4 bloody years. The Jedi are overwhelmed and desperate.

Whole planets are being destroyed.

In retaliation for Palpatine's martial law, Naboo is completely destroyed. The Gungans are wiped out.

The Naboo contingeant on Coruscant is still strong, still fighting though.

Senator Padme Amidala is 9 months pregnant with her unborn children (or child if it is unknown that they are twins). In light of the Clone Wars, she refuses to settle down and just lay still while she feels responsible in part, having worked to defeat the Army Creation Act that led the Republic to war (versus a diplomatic solution) so she tries her best to set things right as a Senator and the last of the Naboo. Her whole family has been wiped out - killed when Naboo was ravaged, and the reason why the twins don't live with their grandparents.

Representative JarJar Binks' played the fool and authorized an army that started a war which eradicated his people. He too is trying to set things straight and is totally ostracized and loathed by Amidala. The bridge he created between the Naboo and the Gungans with her is totally in ashes. He is more annoying than ever, constantly trying to make it up to her and help her. Only for Padme, irritable, as she's pregnant, to be more annoyed with JarJar than the audience (if that's possible).

Meanwhile, to stay close to his wife, Anakin Skywalker, EX-JEDI KNIGHT has been made advisor to the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, another of the last of the Naboo. He defends the people left from the world he held most dearest. But he resents the Jedi who expelled him for breaking the code and his oath, and he learns to feel hatred for them for their keeping him from saving his mother. He fails to understand WHY they let Shmi have a life, as Anakin thinks only of himself, still the whiny, emotionaly immature child that wants everything.

The Jedi meanwhile continue to fight for the Loyalists (including Bail Organa, an ally of Palpatines) against the Rebel Separatists. They command the Clones and Obi-Wan is made a General. But they are getting slaughtered. Having seen the Clone Troopers' superiority in a fight, the Separatists commission their own Clone Army funded by Count Dooku. They get a new donor who looks a lot like Harrison Ford. The orphaned Boba Fett needs to survive and takes command of these Clones to fight the perverse Republic that turned his father's clones against them and enslaved them to the Jedi. He dons Jaster Mureel's old armor - the man who Jango told his son about - the one who had saved Jango's life long ago. And Fett fulfills his father's destiny and leads an army of Mandalorian Clad Clones into battle. The Jedi and Republic Clones are getting slaughtered!

The Separatists have advanced to the Galactic Core and a great battle is being fought on Alderaan!

An urgent message from Obi-Wan Kenobi calls back to Coruscant and Palpatine's office: "Anakin Skywalker, years ago you served the Jedi Order as my Padawan. Now I beg you for your help in my struggle against the Separatists..."

Smug that 'OK, now he's NEEDED,' the greatest of all Jedi leaves Coruscant to fight his way to his former master in a pitched Starfighter battle that shows that Anakin is indeed the best Starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

Anakin rejoins his former Master and Anakin proves that he has not stopped learning about the Force. He has studied forbidden knowledge of the Dark Side from Sith artifacts that have fallen into his hands through his benefactor, Palpatine. With his newfound powers combined with Obi-Wan's, they duel and destroy Count Dooku! Before he dies, while he's fatally wounded, Anakin runs off when a transmission comes through by a desperate Padme Amidala!

The Trade Federation and Techno Union cower in light of these events, but the Mandalorians won't give up!

In a stealth strike on Coruscant, they hit the capital and capture the Loyalist Party leaders: Bail Organa, JarJar Binks, and the pregnant Padme Amidala! It is a spectacular mini-battle that pits the Chancellor's Royal Guards against the Mandalorians! But the Guardsmen are defeated, though they buy time for Palpatine to escape to a secret underground bunker in the firey bowels of Coruscant!

They are taken away as prisoners of war and held at some other location. Perhaps a conquered Corellia?

Meanwhile, as Dooku dies, he says he had joined the Sith to destroy them from within, but failed. He says all the lives lost in the Clone Wars would have been worth it if by going along with everything, he'd stopped the birth of a new age of evil and a Sith Empire, but he failed. He tells Obi-Wan that Palpatine is the real Dark Lord of the Sith. Perhaps he carries a holo-transmission to "prove it."

But the Mandalorian Clones have suffered severe losses too. Their youngest soldiers, some of them but only 11 years old, are needed to guard the prisoners while the adults do the fighting.

Anakin rushes back to Coruscant and security forces send him to Palpatine. He tells him that his pregnant wife and child / children were killed in the attack while Anakin was away helping Obi-Wan.
He tells Anakin that the war is going far too badly for the Republic and even Dooku's death won't make a difference against the Mandalorian Clones. He says that is because they are being led by the Jedi who concocted this whole thing as a conspiracy with Dooku so that they could sieze power. The Jedi High Council has been manipulating everything and Obi-Wan was blind if he could not see it. Everything he advised Anakin on led the younger Jedi astray and he was unwittingly a part of this whole thing.

Meanwhile Obi-Wan goes back to the Jedi to tell them what he's learned. He is instructed to find his former padawan as they will need everyone's help, especially if the boy really could be the Chosen One. Obi-Wan traces Anakin to the molten depths of Corusant and finds Palpatine!

He claims the Chancellor is the Dark Lord of the Sith and must be destroyed. Anakin blames him for Padme's death and the deaths of his unborn children and his mother, 4 years ago. He will not let Obi-Wan kill Palpatine, the last of those who have been good to him. And he thinks Obi-Wan is crazy - Palpatine is not the Dark Lord of the Sith. But Obi-Wan moves to fulfill his mission and Anakin's emotions come to a boil. The two square off and fight - Master vs. Former Apprentice. All of Anakin's rage surges, but his will to live is sapped, tears fall as he accuses Obi-Wan of preventing him from saving Padme. Anakin swears he himself is a failure and doesn't deserve to live, but he will make Obi-Wan pay for what he's done first. But his emotions do not allow him to concentrate, and the teary-eyed youth gets hit by Kenobi's saber again and again! Across the face, in back of the head. But Obi-Wan fights to defend. When Anakin loses his concentration, he falls over the edge, his arm cut off perhaps, and holding on with the other arm. His lightsaber slides away on the ground.

Obi-Wan rushes forward to save Anakin, forgive him for his mistakes. He offers Anakin his hand, but Anakin refuses to take it. Anakin loses his grip and falls plunging toward the lava! Obi-Wan wipes away tears and picks up Anakin's fallen saber - all he has to remember his former padawan by.

Obi-Wan turns, but Palpatine has escaped!

Meanwhile, Boba Fett moves to the forward command and confronts the late-Dooku's second in command - a traitorous Republic commander Tarkin. Tarkin receives orders from Darth Sidious, knowing he has lost Lord Tyranus to the Force. They will make a treaty with the Separatists to end this war, but the Loyalists must die. Alderaan must completely disarm and surrender to the Separatists so they can safely return to their systems, but their will be a new Empire born out of the rejoining of the Rebel systems and the Old Republic - one Sidious 'has assurances will be accepted by the war weary public.' Palpatine will preside 'benevolently' over a more direct, authoritative government that will allow the Separatists to remain in power and control their special interests to their own advantage. Tarkin accepts these conditions if he will gain power. Fett feels betrayed, but he's young and has no one else to pay his way in the galaxy. He is ordered to Corellia to kill the Loyalist prisoners.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan returns to the Jedi and tells some of them of the tragedy. His wounds severe, he cannot go on the rescue mission when intelligence learns that the Loyalists are still alive and being held prisoner.

Just then Chancellor Palpatine comes on the air and says the Jedi are responsible for the war. They took command of the Republic's Clones and Dooku led the rebellion. On top of that, Obi-Wan Kenobi just tried to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor and slayed Anakin Skywalker, Alderaan's hero and the Chancellor's protector, in the process. The Jedi must be purged and the Senate is completely corrupted, the Loyalists having been killed and the rest remaining suspect. He will push for a bold, new offensive against the Jedi, this will destroy their control over the Clones and end the war. He calls for all the Jedi to be lynched basically.

The Jedi assigned to the rescue mission must move quickly, because if saved, they can provide testimony to the Jedi's innocense!

Meanwhile, the orders come down to Corellia to kill the prisoners. A young Clone guarding them is in command and knows Fett is arriving soon. Padme has just given birth, and prior to the order, with no reason not to, the young Clone helped the Loyalists give her the medical attention necessary for the children to be born. Now he is ordered to simply kill them all!

He can't. He disobeys orders and tells them he'll provide them with a means of escape, weapons, etc. Padme asks why, and the young Clone says "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?"

They flee as Boba Fett arrives. Bail Organa grabs a blaster and defends Amidala, as JarJar pleads with her that it's not his fault. Bail and the young Clones are going to be quickly over-ran when the Jedi arrive!

Mace Windu commands them. Boba Fett recognizes this Jedi in particular! It's personal, but he makes a note that he has another score to settle with that young Clone who disobeyed his orders, too!

The Jedi and Mandalorians now fight it out! The Knights get to the Loyalists, then split up when Mace realizes that they have the children of Skywalker! If Anakin is dead, perhaps the children will bring balance to the Force? Mace will lead Fett away from them! To do so, he plays upon Boba's unprofessional hatred and Fett makes the mistake of going after Mace while Padme gets away. Mace allows himself to get cornered because it draws Fett after the target he's been longing for. But Mace is no longer there - he closes his eyes and disintegrates! Becoming one with the Force!

Meanwhile, Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon get Padme, Bail, and JarJar out of there. The young Clone is advised to run away and he does so. But where are the Jedi going to run to?

On Coruscant, the Jedi Temple is under attack! It's lynch mobs and police alike! Obi-Wan battles his way out of there and tries to get the Jedi children to safety. Yoda flees quietly in another direction, but senses a grave disturbance in the Force.

Anakin's body is on a ledge he fell on, just above the lava. He is NOT in the lava, but the heat is burning his skin and the air is (figuratively) setting fire to his lungs. He cries out in pain for Padme and collapses - we presume he's dead. A shadow falls across the body. Cut the scene.

Palpatine proclaims the main body of the Separatist forces are caving in without their Jedi commanders. He says they will sign a treaty to be under direct control of a New Order - one with the strength that can handle their dissent, and he will serve as an Emperor in a new government that will unite the galaxy to rebuild itself into a new golden age. A new Senate will retain power to one day restore the Republic when all the rebellions are put down, but meantwhile, someone the galaxy cantrust, Palpatine of course, will command over the reconstruction of this new galactic unity. Tarkin signs a treaty with him and is made a governor over the Separatists on the Outer Rim.

The new Emperor appears with a new Enforcer at his side - a persecuted Sith Lord, Darth Vader. The Sith were responsible Force-users the Jedi killed off or horribly maimed and betrayed because the Sith represented Order, but one where the Jedi would hold no power. Without Lord Vader, Palpatine proclaims, the Separatists would not have been convinced to surrender.

Meanwhile, Yoda meets Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, and the loyalists. He learns of the survival of the children of Skywalker and hears a final transmission recorded earlier by Mace. Yoda reconsiders the Prophesy. Bail insists on getting them to Alderaan, but the Core is blockaded. They have to take the Corellian Trade Route which runs out past Dagobah. There they will split up if followed. Yoda sends a transmission to Obi-Wan, only informing him of a rendezvous point.

Boba Fett, frustrated, begins to track them. Through Tarkin, Vader learns of his employ. Vader is obsessed to learn what happened to the Jedi on Corellia, as they must be destroyed - Palpatine convinced him so. When he meets Fett, he wants to kill him for what he presumes they did to his wife. But as Fett pleads for his life, Vader is intrigued to learn that the Jedi came there to protect a pregnant Senator and that they were rescued - the Mandalorians did not kill them as Palpatine 'mistakenly' thought. So Vader forces Fett to work as a hunter, tracking them. Slave-One picks up the trail and calls Vader in to Dagobah. They land with troops and begin to search the swamps. Fett waits in space, hoping for payment for his services.

The Jedi must split up again. Yoda and Plo Koon will stay behind while Ki-Adi Mundi gets Padme, Bail, JarJar, and the baby twins to safety as Darth Vader stalks them through the swamps. Yoda had stressed that the twins could hold the Chosen One and they must be split up so that at least one of them could survive.

Padme won't abide JarJar, so she and Leia go with Bail Organa. JarJar goes with Ki Adi Mundi.

Plo Koon is wounded and give into his fear and uses the Dark instincts native to his species. A spectacular battle begins but Plo ends up defeated and dies in the tree cave, while Yoda with superior skills, had took on all the Clone Troopers that Vader had commanded. When Vader returns from that awesome fight with Plo Koon, he finds the Loyalist ships gone, and assumes other Jedi that LEFT, killed the Clones.

Vader too leaves - to hunt them down!

Yoda remains behind. No ship is left to take him away. But he was shocked to observe Darth Vader from afar - there was something very familiar about him!

"Hmmm." Yoda says.

Meanwhile, Boba Fett detected the two Loyalist ships leaving Dagobah and chose to follow one. It's Ki Adi Mundi's. They are attacked and Ki has to land. The two of them must split up again, and Ki tells JarJar to take the baby and make sure he can get it to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

At the spaceport, Ki Adi Mundi prepares to slay Boba Fett, but instead of Fett, he faces Darth Vader! You know the outcome!

Obi-Wan Kenobi gets an urgent message pre-recorded from Ki-Adi Mundi. Kenobi has gotten some children to safety and told them to hide, make whatever life they can, remember to use their abilities for good, but never let on to anyone that they were ever Jedi, or they would be caught and put to death!

So Obi-Wan tracks Ki-Adi Mundi's signal to not Ki, but JarJar, who has a baby who he's told is the Son of Skywalker! Obi-Wan knows what THEY must do, when Ki-Adi Mundi's signal is traced - by Boba Fett! Knowing that he could never make things up to Padme for helping start this war, JarJar will help save her son by leading Fett away. It is assumed that the loyalist party that Vader is looking for is this one, as witnesses tell Fett that one of them had a baby! Fett tracks the signal to a ship (JarJar's) and destroys it as it takes off! (JarJar is totally blown to pieces!) Vader arrives on the scene and yells he wanted them alive! (Fett did have orders to kill them though) Vader turns to Fett and says "No disintegrations." Fett is stiffed by a curiously grieving Darth Vader, but threatened when he asks for payment that he will be paid by Vader sparing his life. Weary from his battles the Dark Lord returns to his new Master, Palpatine.

Padme, Bail, and baby Leia arrive on Alderaan. On this war ravaged planet that is being forced to disarm, rebuild, and repair, they stare up at the stars and wonder what the future will hold.

On a distant planet, circling two of those stars, Obi-Wan takes the baby Luke to the only living relatives he knows survived - Anakin's step-father and his family. But Cliegg has died from his wounds and Owen now runs the family farm with his young wife, Beru. They take the child from the Jedi, and following Owen's experience and character estimation of Anakin, tells Obi-Wan to get out of there and never bring his troubles back.

Obi-Wan Kenobi walks away, unable to stop the suns from setting.

The end.

DarthBrandon
05-21-2002, 04:50 AM
Tyco,

I said this earlier MAN CAN YOU WRITE !!! or what ?
Impressive outline for the plot of Episode III most Impressive.
That rocked.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 06:18 AM
Thanks - twice. The first time for encouraging me.

Glad you liked it. Nothing is a spoiler or confirmed. No story or script yet exists for Episode 3. In the spoiler section I reposted this storyline so we can add or 'correct' stuff as we learn more, closer to 2005. In the meantime, I tried to be logical.

But I have no idea if Corellia is going to be in the film. When Padme is presumed dead, she and the loyalists have to be taken somewhere. And if Han Solo is ever established this early, he must somehow betray Boba Fett.

One thing we've heard is that E3 is about betrayals. Perhaps Bail Organa starts to keep secrets from Palpatine - another betrayal. If Corellia is involved, the Senator Garm Bel Ibis could work into the picture - as this was TOLD to Timothy Zahn - that the origins of the Alliance were Corellia, Alderaan, and Chandrilla (but I still haven't worked Mon Mothma into this yet). There are plenty of other flaws in my story I'm sure I or you all will find, but I think we need to see Alderaan at some point to care about it. I think Dagobah and Tatooine must be seen, but briefly. Coruscant is obvious. Why the twins aren't raised with Padme's family must be cited (though it could be just to protect her family by letting them believe she'd died - though that seems more cruel than leaving them dead - as well as Naboo). Corellia is the real question. I just threw it in there. I like the idea that they are moving the action into the Galactic Core Worlds though. The other movies take place on the Outer Rim or the Mid Rim.

The other thing is notice the big battle is at the beginning of the film. There are plenty of lightsaber duels and stalkings going on later, but the pace is slowing down and getting more personal so it can blend better with ANH. It will have a VERY ESB feel to it though. Finally, the Dagobah swamp is so dark and eerie, it makes sense that Vader should be stalking and doing his killing there.

If Padme kills herself towards the end of this movie, like the Romeo and Juliet theme I discussed earlier in another post in this thread, that could happen as a way for Bail Organa to escape and Padme just fakes she has her baby, while Bail actually does. She doesn't exactly commit suicide, someone else pulls the trigger, blows up her ship, or whatever - but it is presumed she had a child with her by the bad characters. Maybe, to keep Leia being a sister a surpirse for ROTJ, Bail and Padme split up, and his carrying Leia is NOT shown, and it is made to look like he possibly died too - and Padme, with an empty bundle - is killed next. Then when Yoda says in Empire "no - there is another" we are still confused WHO he means (if you pretend you haven't seen ROTJ yet).

Last but not least, Vader stalking through the dark mysts of Dagobah's eerie swamp trying to find out what happened to Padme is also paying tribute to Dracula, who searches for Elizabeth, his lost love. The only thing is will Vader want her to see him like that?

Another thought is that there could be two Vader costumes in E3 (maybe). One that does not look totally evil, but will appear that way for the Plo Koon fight. Then when he's sure he lost everything, when he returns to Palpatine, he puts on the 2nd outfit, the one we are all familiar with.

I'd rather not complicate things like that with the costumes.

But one last thing - in Empire, when Vader stalks after Luke, hunting him across the galaxy - it picks up right where he left off hunting for Padme - across the stars.

And when Luke encounters Vader on Dagobah in the vision sequence, we all will remember how fatal that was for Plo Koon!

Rogue II
05-21-2002, 07:28 AM
That's a pretty cool story, Tycho. George Lucas should be jealous.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 10:39 AM
You just whipped that up last night? ;)


I'm intrigued by the political manueverings. Very impressive, however I'm lost on how Anakin is convinced that Padme is dead. Also I'm not excited about turning the secondary clones into Han Solo look-alikes. Instead of a galactic bid for power, it only further reduces the saga into an extended grudge match. I like the Anakin death sequence, but vote no on ever seeing a Vader figure. It should end there. And no on seeing Obi Wan delivering the child. It ruins any sense of mystery, however brief, that ANH had regarding Luke and Old Ben.

Other than those extremely major and essential points, not a bad outline. The politics seem to be laid out quite well and make sense as far as I can tell. But as I've said all along, there is plenty of material that COULD be included in Ep III. The trick is choosing which information to leave out in order to preserve the OT as best as possible. All of your Vader sequences, while interesting, are best left to EU and most likely would be done better in that arena.

If done my way :), the saga could be safely viewed in chronological order. Start giving away the farm and future audiences will have no choice but to watch the saga in order of porduction.

bigbarada
05-21-2002, 10:52 AM
Giving the issue some more thought, I don't believe that Ep3 should try too hard to maintain Anakin's secret identity in the OT. Like EP said once, why sacrifice the entire Ep3 storyline just to keep a secret that will only work once?

It really doesn't matter IMO, however GL decides to do it is fine with me. I just can't wait to watch Ep1-6 altogether and if they don't mesh, then does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? I know for certain that my life won't be ruined and I will still be able to enjoy an imperfect saga for it's shining moments.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 10:56 AM
holy damn! that's long... i still think we need to see the jedi trials and see him get kicked out of the order... those two things are very important to build his resentment: having to endure these supposedly very tough tests, and after that to be expelled. i think it's going to have to start with the trials, then padme is too visibly pregnant to hide it, and he's forced to choose between the order and his love.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


It really doesn't matter IMO, however GL decides to do it is fine with me. I just can't wait to watch Ep1-6 altogether and if they don't mesh, then does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? I know for certain that my life won't be ruined and I will still be able to enjoy an imperfect saga for it's shining moments.


In the end, I'll agree with your above statement, but it is still disheartening to see the possiblities and watch GL get so close but blow it because of silly mistakes. TPM was a prime example of that. All of the elements were there, but it desperately needed a polish on the script from a better writer (where the heck is Kasdan?!) to fully exploit it's potential. It's one thing if the movie is just so bad that you just write the filmmaker off as a hack. But these prequels are juuuussssttt missing their target thus far. The saga can be rescued from eternal judgment that "the prequels didn't live up to expectations" if GL takes the time to preserve the OT in EP III. But if he simply decides to go for the jugular and "give the fans what they want" and show some lame montage of Vader getting his mask or whatever, then he will have truly become what he claims to have loathed...his own movie studio, concerned more with the bottom line than with quality storytelling. Therein lies the irony: perhaps the greatest independent filmmaker ever capable of creating absolutely any film he wishes caving into the very fears that drive Hollywood executives to make the poor decisions that they do. He is becoming one of them and he doesn't even see it happening.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 11:19 AM
I like both Darthyvn's comments and Stillakid's.

However, Darthvyn, your idea might be extending the movie too far back, rather than moving it forward. Plus I don't know but believe the Jedi's trials are personalized (like 'face your greatest fear') and so we won't get a good measure of that with Anakin anyway - as I bet Tatooine might have been his trial anyway. But with the Clone Wars fully raging, I think the Jedi and the story will be too busy to handle this.

The movie will start after 2 to 4 years of heavy warfare, with it still going on. So it's almost like sending Winston Churchill to a spelling contest in the middle of the invasion of Normandy.

But you could be right...I'll have to think about it for a while.

Stillakid. I could agree with you. Mind you the audience would be really disappointed if some of your omissions happened, though it might be in good taste.

I did remember those concerns of yours and

1) Never had Obi-Wan fight VADER
2) Never showed Anakin live and become Vader
3) Might've figured out a way for Bail Organa to escape with Leia, but never show her so the audience doesn't see there are twins - it would make all the Luke kissing Leia stuff more than gross. Make Padme running with a bundle look like she's trying the decoy trick - presumably with Luke, who's really in JarJar's custody.
4) Never mention Luke's name so that it is a surprise on the Death Star when he says "I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you."
5) Not let it be known that Bail Organa even survives, let alone had a baby with him all along
6) Let Yoda learn of Anakin's fate without SHOWING the audience, but implying he recognized something in Vader which we can later assume means he felt Anakin's twisted presence.

But I think you are right: if we don't see Obi-Wan arrive on Tatooine with a child, we don't know who "Ben" is and we don't know who "Luke" is, but discover that as we go along, watching ANH 'for the first time' as the 7th and 8th hour in this single, long movie.

Too bad to not see Owen and Beru again (I like Joel and Bonnie), but that's ok and then they don't need to deal with Cliegg's death etc. Too much information.

Anyway, did I fix some of it?

I truly think that Darth Vader needs to be established in E3 and we know James Earl Jones is contracted to do some short lines of dialogue and Hayden wants to try on the black armor.

I don't know if Hayden will ever get to play Vader though - or if a taller stunt double will handle it from that point out.

bigbarada
05-21-2002, 11:31 AM
I don't like the idea of a montage scene showing Anakin becoming Vader either; but I don't think EP3 should try too hard to preserve the secret. If anything make it like Palpatine/Sidious in Ep1 and 2, nothing is ever mentioned outright but an observant audience will figure it out on their own.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 11:32 AM
Seeing you lay out plans for Vader, I'll admit the idea is intriguing and could possibly be done without directly giving away the secret.

However, I have this nagging feeling that won't go away that if we see Anakin's body lying there and the shadow cross over it (which I like), but then POOF! this dark cloaked guy on life-support shows up in the third act of Ep III, then it's waaayyyy too obvious what happened and you've inadvertantly given it all away. It's a fine line, but audiences aren't quite as stupid as George seems to think they are.

While it would be neato to watch a young Vader go out and be a part of it all, I think that a better realization of what that character embodies comes only after a period of time, after Anakin gets used to being encased in the armor.

At first, it seems unlikely that he'd get suited up and head out into the galaxy like a bansheeh to slaughter anyone. If it was me, I'd be pretty uncomfortable and probably a little clumsy. That's not the Darth Vader any of us want to see.

Joining the Vader story later on in ANH, introduces us to a man/machine who is confident and comfortable with his new state-of-being and is free to run around choking officers and such.

That's why I think that the Vader hunting down and destroying the Jedi Knights sequences are better left to the in-between storybooks and comics (and videogames?!). The development of his character could be more fully fleshed out and the action sequences could be drawn in a far more interesting and exciting way than could ever be accomplished on film in a two hour movie that has so much other information to impart.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 11:44 AM
the only problem, tycho, is that the separatists at the end of ep II are in total disarray, and are now just scapegoats, an intangible enemy that the emperor (because he really is that now) can use to further his power. we see the clones taking off to invade all the "warring factions" but as we know, the separatists are really wimps. i like the idea that tyranus is trying to destroy the sith from the inside, but i doubt that paplatine would truly give him enough power in the plan to be able to do that.

i also think that we need to see how the sith are initiated... if episode III (aside from the jedi massacre) was all about the jedi and sith rites of passage, that would be really cool... if it started with anakin's jedi trials, and ended with his sith rites, i think that would be awesome. it would explain the central ideas of the entire series. as the central movie (sort of) that would make a lot of sense...

but i really think this discussion doesn't belong in this thread anymore. this is definately now the episode III speculation thread, not the what did you think of attack of the clones thread...

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 11:50 AM
i hadn't heard that JEJ was contracted for III... that's great, oh man i can't wait to see new vader footage

i do think that anakin is going to have to take on the name vader before his fight with obi-wan... i don't know, it just seems weird to me that he would fight obi-wan without really being sith... unless that is his sith initiation.... hmmmm

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 12:13 PM
one other thought... ben knows who vader is in a new hope... it's not just assumption, he knows that this is vader, and that it's anakin, so we will definately see anakin take the name of vader and possibly wear the armor before his duel with obi-wan.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
the only problem, tycho, is that the separatists at the end of ep II are in total disarray, and are now just scapegoats, an intangible enemy that the emperor (because he really is that now) can use to further his power. we see the clones taking off to invade all the "warring factions" but as we know, the separatists are really wimps. i like the idea that tyranus is trying to destroy the sith from the inside, but i doubt that paplatine would truly give him enough power in the plan to be able to do that.

i also think that we need to see how the sith are initiated... if episode III (aside from the jedi massacre) was all about the jedi and sith rites of passage, that would be really cool... if it started with anakin's jedi trials, and ended with his sith rites, i think that would be awesome. it would explain the central ideas of the entire series. as the central movie (sort of) that would make a lot of sense...

but i really think this discussion doesn't belong in this thread anymore. this is definately now the episode III speculation thread, not the what did you think of attack of the clones thread...


While I respectfully disagree with your hopes for seeing Vader, I do agree that there should be another place for this line of posts (that I inadvertently began). I noticed that Tycho posted his story treatment in a separate thread. Could a moderator please shift the appropriate posts from this thread over to that one? Thanks.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
one other thought... ben knows who vader is in a new hope... it's not just assumption, he knows that this is vader, and that it's anakin, so we will definately see anakin take the name of vader and possibly wear the armor before his duel with obi-wan.

It doesn't have to happen that way. Conceivably there are 20 odd years or so between EP III and IV. In that interim, through the grapevine, it's quite possible that Obi would learn Anakin's fate. Showing the creation of Vader in Ep III creates far more problems than it solves.

That time period is also crucial to the story. In Ep IV, Tarkin walks into the board room and announces that the final remnants of the Old Republic have just been swept away. It took 20 years to do that! So, it is far from necessary to cram all of this story into Ep III unless the intention is to completely blow off the surprises in the OT. In that case, EP III could start off with Padme's kids already born and around 3 years of age. The was is going full tilt and the Vader/Obi fight occurs within hour 1. The last hour and half we see a Vader guy cruising through the galaxy slaughtering Jedi. So, if that's the case, what gives with the following 20 years or so that exist between III and IV?

Nah, just look at the amount of political information that Tycho so graciously wrote up that MUST get into Ep III. There's barely enough time to squeeze in Anakin's plight much less continue his personal vendetta after he becomes Vader. That's what the OT is for. Why do it all over again?

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
There's barely enough time to squeeze in Anakin's plight much less continue his personal vendetta after he becomes Vader. That's what the OT is for. Why do it all over again?

but i thought the whole of 1-6 is the story of anakin. if so then his actions are a lot more important than the politics. even so, i think we got a good balance of politics and anakin's actions in this episode, so i don't think it will be too hard to get through in III. i DO think, however, that it will have to be at least 3 hours long...

as for where this thread is going, is it going to a spoilers section, or a non-spoilers section... i really don't want any spoilers, at least not yet... as this stuff is just pure speculation (at least on my part) i vote this goes to the episode III (no spoilers) forum. but of course, we see how in a republic of this size one vote doesn't matter...lol

i think we are also missing the fact that if anakin is the chosen one (we really don't know for sure, do we?) we will need to see him cut down all the jedi at the side of palpatine, so that should be in ep III, as well. a lot of story, not a lot of space. perhaps there will be an episode III.V?

JangoTango
05-21-2002, 03:11 PM
Hey Guys, all the speculation for ep 3 is great, and Tycho's thoughts were quite interesting; however, think about what we're saying here: Ep 4 begins about 18 years after Ep 3, and I don't think we should expect Vader to wipe out all of the jedi during the screen time of Ep 3. He'll have plenty of time in between. Obi-Wan doesn't give us a time frame during which the jedi are extinguished, and with Tarkin telling us that the 'last remnants of the republic have been swept away' could lead us to believe that Vader could have been finishing off the jedi up until a mere 4 or 5 years prior to ANH.

Also, here's more food for thought: I don't think it was coincedence that the first battle of the Clone War was fought on Geonosis. Think about this: Geonosis is where the battle droid factories are, and the Geonosians are obviously weapons designers. If Sidious plays it right (which he did, and planned) the war starts where he can immediately wipe out almost all of the separatist armies AND perhaps even leave a garrison of troops behind to destroy the factories; and also be sure the Geonosians don't start producing more-- after all, there are no battle droids seen after Ep 3 (possibly Ep 2 even).

One last thought... do you think that we'll see actual Stormtroopers? Perhaps the 'million more well on their way' line that Lama Su says will have updated armor; and perhaps the Empire will have also begun recruiting soldiers (hence the stormtroopers from the OT with differing voices??)

Tycho
05-21-2002, 03:53 PM
Whoa: (I need to talk about your story ideas AND moving the thread in this post)

first off, I moderate this forum since it's in polls but I'll give YOU the power to decide the fate of this tangeant in the thread.

I can't move these posts personally though, so I have to ask, but first let's decide on that. Personally, I'd vote to leave it where it is.

Each movie undoubtedly breeds speculation on the next one, and since the next one is the last chapter, there is definitely criteria for what HAS TO happen.

So I think that would have come up in this thread as a result of discussing AOTC no matter what. I just got inspired to write the story treatment.

Furthermore, everyone wanting to post and think on AOTC is posting in this thread after they see the movie: Darthvyn and JangoTango have great ideas, but they are brand new to the forums. I am thankful they are contributing, but I don't think they would have just wandered into E3 Spoiler threads because there's little to go on that now.

New people will always vote on a volcano planet for the lava accident (for Vader) and we always had to start over again about the mythological journey down to Hades (Hell) etc which would be the bowels of Coruscant - central to the story - versus some distant world only used for that one story purpose.

While it could be - (though I doubt it as do probably at least 3 of you ;) we need not start over every minute).

But it's to our advantage to have this discussion here because of all the people who can participate.

Episode 2 thoughts are definitely integral to this discussion as well, so people can keep posting them and the occasional

"I liked Watto in Episode 2" should be welcome here and not ignored. Like any conversation, it could be interrupted, and new participants should be welcomed. They might find this interesting.

I reposted some of my thoughts in an Episode 3 Spoiler thread.

Why that section instead of non-spoilers?

Part of the fun of this is reforming the story when we learn crucial hints from new information and seeing how 'correct' we can get it. But if JarJar's really in the Vader costume, some of us won't want to know that. BUT, if he is, then we have to reform our whole storyline and this speculation serves no purpose. Therefore, spoiler information, though I don't think it will be until like July or August forthcoming, is important to the storyline.

There is a lot of danger in getting attached to our own work on E3. I like a lot of Stillakid's ideas, but he's a non-spoiler man. Kid: this plot is getting reformed by YOU and me right now, and you obviously have talent and I really respect your opinion AND I am thoroughly humbled by your praise for my story treatment. But the more this continues, (and you avoid spoilers) and at some point I disconnect from the non-spoiler speculation because I will undoubtedly be influenced by spoilers when there are some, YOU will be left with your reformed, definitive story for E3 and on May 25, 2005 hold the movie up to comparison with undoubtedly what will be YOUR favored standards.

It may surprise you, or you might learn Lucas plagerized your work ;)

But the surprises might make you mad - such as if Howard the Duck became a huge hero in the movie and we had no idea.

Meanwhile, (and I strongly believe Han is a Clone Warrior), if Solo is not a clone and I get TFN and other spoiler sites' strongest information on that (such as Han is an orphan with a quick cameo that has nothing to do with clones), I will undoubtedly want to reform the story so it is correct, and mustn't do that so as to spoil things, right?

So this story has to be praised, ripped apart, 'corrected' by the informed and uninformed separately already, and therefore should be accessable:

1) with spoilers in E3 spoiler section

2) without spoilers - I suggest you copy and paste a lot of this to start an E3 no -spoiler speculation thread - but some in the non-spoiler camp will still get angry at this (believe me - I've seen it happen - I have a friend that won't even speculate. I'd say Anakin has to become Vader and he'll say "don't tell me!" even while were watching ESB. Go figure?)

3) this thread is the best way to get new participants.

4) ANYONE that wants to guide stuff back to Episode TWO here may do so at any time. It will undoubtedly sway in that direction again though, so we might as well keep it here. In the meantime, new E2 posters have to read through hundreds of posts - mostly about E2 first now, or they'll just blindly post and the interruption will be abrupt, but they could undoubtedly get this thread back on an AOTC topic, but the speculation info will still be intact here.

Right now, there is an E3 -Complete Story Spoiler Thread which starts with a copy of my stuff in that section.

If you guys want to Start one with my story in the E3 Non-spoilers, go ahead. Copy and paste and I'll participate until I get spoilers that will make me drop out in order to keep my mouth shut.

If there's enough dissent with my solution, I'll get Steve to help us move this tangent of the thread to the E3 non-spoilers section.

I think I might copy some of your ideas (and give anyone's post credit that it deserves) to the E3 spoiler thread as well. Like Stillakid's good ideas, though I don't recommend he subscribes to the thread unless he wants spoilers this time around. I'll private message people if anything interesting to their post is responded to there -and also if and when I have the energy to copy - move it.

It's a complicated solution, but what do you think?

Tycho
05-21-2002, 04:08 PM
And to get back to JangoTango's thoughts, the Sith don't want the wars to stop. Palpatine retains emergency powers so long as "this crisis is not yet abated." He'll want to keep the war going as long as possible until he can secure control, a public image as a hero - people will love Palpatine through E3 (fictional people on Coruscant, etc. I mean) and I don't think the task force sent to Geonosis stopped all the droids. The Techno Union's got plenty and Nute Gunray likely got away with the last batch of the Geonosian's Backtoid Armor ones (Rodger and Rodger's brother).

I think there will be a shift to the superior Super Battle Droids for E2, but for there to be a full Clone Wars, both sides will probably clone superior soldiers. Maybe not. Maybe Vader is promoted a hero because he can take command of the Clones away from those insurrectionist Jedi? A political spin twist on events that change nothing in my basic plotline, save for what story is fed to Coruscant's public.

I don't know if Kamino will sell to both sides, and if they did, what their fate would become in E3. I don't think it's important to see Kamino in E3 (though I like that planet), but it does leave you asking who else is doing the Cloning? Are there others? Or is the Republic done after having received all the Jango Fett clones, and the Separatists their new client, making them Denn Solo clones? Or Denn's son (Han is Denn's grandson in the Expanded Universe history - we never learn anything about Denn's son, who would be Han's father). This is undoubtedly intentional.

I refer everyone to A.C. Crispin's "The Paradise Snare," "The Hutt Gambit" and "Rebel Dawn." They are the best SW books I've ever read! If Han is a clone, it still would not conflict with these books. Note: I think we will have Han BEFORE we meet Chewie. They will not know each other, be together, if Chewbacca is even seen. I doubt the Wookiee makes an appearence in the movie altogether.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 05:16 PM
I thought of something else that needs to work with the OT:

If we never see Anakin become Vader, which I think we won't, then when Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father was killed by a pupil of his, we'll all know he's lying right there. But if you were watching the "12 hour movie" for the first time, you might dismiss this as guilt - Obi-Wan not wanting to tell Luke that HE was responsible for his father's death, and blaming it on a visible figure of the Dark Side.

This can't be corrected in the OT - it's part of the storyline through ROTJ. But I think "the new audience" will dismiss it as Obi-Wan feeling guilty and not telling Luke the truth for that reason - not suspecting Luke's father is still alive until the Cloud City confrontation.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 06:03 PM
do you think we might have a separate and new forum in between episode III (no spoilers) and episode III (spoilers) named episode III (speculations)? that way the hardcore no spoilers people will be cool, and the people that like to speculate, but not spoil will be cool, and the people that like to speculate and spoil will be cool...

that way everybody's cool.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 06:05 PM
i have had the thought that han was a clone... gives a whole new twist to his last name: he is one of a million clones, and his name is solo...

Tycho
05-21-2002, 06:29 PM
That's where my speculation started from, that and Han's arch-enemy Fett and his ship name:

Slave 0NE and Han SOLO

I don't think it was coincidental. Furthermore, perhaps Jango didn't even call his ship Slave-One, but Boba did - after he saw how the clones were going to be used.

But Han wouldn't be used that way and escaped all that - then found brief 'honor' in the Imperial Navy. But he was to be expelled for the Chewbacca incident and could only sink lower to working for the Hutts. Then he messed up even with the Hutts.

Boba despised him and finally got the chance to do something about it, once Han was out from under Jabba's protection.

Plus Han made Boba fail all those years ago - in front of Tarkin (?) and Vader!

There's a price to be paid.

"But stupid grudges and worthless arsenols are no match for just one good blaster at your side - plus a big Wookiee pal definitely helps!" - Han Solo

He also said "$#@#!! Fett" but we couldn't print the full content of that quote here. :D

JediTricks
05-21-2002, 06:39 PM
Ok, what the heck? This is supposed to be a poll about how folks feel about "Episode II - Attack of the Clones", is that topic so fragile that it has to be supported by the group's anticipation of another film?

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 06:44 PM
so, yeah, there's so much stuff to fill in btwn the OT and the NT, that i think the NT will actually have to be a quadridgy, and we will see digitally changed episode numbers... get used to

episode v, a new hope
episode vi, the empire strikes back
episode vii, return of the jedi

seriously, though, to put in everything they need to put in, it will have to be four hours long (the number keeps going up...)

okay, so we don't need to see vader kill ALL the jedi, but it is necessary to get the point across that this is the balance prophecy is true, and so all the jedi but two will be killed.

we need some sort of back story on han

we need the confrontation btwn obi-wan and vader

we need the birth of the twins (not necessarily both shown, stillakid - i do like the idea of keeping the secrets of OT, i just don't see that happening)

I need to see the sith initiation (i just think that would be too cool...)

and i really think we need to see anakin take on the name of vader. i think it's really important to his character, and something would be lost without it.

so, anyway, what about the new forum idea, huh, huh?

Rogue II
05-21-2002, 06:45 PM
4 Questions.

Episode III should take place 18-20 years before ANH and 2-3 years after ATOC?

How old is Luke in ANH?

In the OT, does Vader know he has a son before Luke destroys the Death Star?

So we most likely won't see Vader in his full black armor. But Anakin should cross to the dark side and cease being Skywalker and become Darth Vader. I also doubt we will see Han Solo.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 06:46 PM
sorry tricks, we all just kinda got on it... we would like to move it somewhere...

Tycho
05-21-2002, 06:52 PM
Well JT, first we might need your help moving a lot of this speculation to a new thread if enough people here chime in for that. (I left it up to them, though disagree with moving it myself in a previous post I hope you saw).

In the meantime, before that is settled, anyone can discuss E2 here. That IS the topic.

But it while it stands alone as a movie better than ESB - it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be continued (could've been the 1st SW movie in some ways), Clones' job as a picture is to make you desire to want to see more.

Ultimately it is concluded in a film called Return of the Jedi, but didn't you leave the theater wanting to see more?

(and thanks - YOU are getting us back on topic, JT)

I want to know what will the Jedi do because Anakin married. Was he saying he was quitting, or will they keep it a secret, or will he try and create the Jedi Reformation?

What is the Republic going to do with all those clones and that "neat-o" looking stuff?

Can we see Yoda take on Spiderman? How will he fair against Godzilla? Could Yoda have raised the Titanic? What's THE MASTER going to surprise us with next?

Obviously I'm interested in the love story and in Master Yoda, as well as the fate of the Republic.

That makes it a good movie. If I wasn't interested, why should I care about 4-5-6 (if I were viewing these as a 6 part show of a 12 hour movie?)

Tycho
05-21-2002, 07:11 PM
Oh, right now ONLY Darthvyn and Stillakid have chimed in to say they think the E3 speculative portion of this thread should be moved.

But Rogue 2, Caesar, and more are still participating and found the topic interesting because it is here. And yeah, LOL - Stillakid, I think you did start this, so it's your baby too. But it is staying interesting by being here. In the E3 section, this threads "twin" is not getting as many visitors.

Rogue 2,

E3 could be anywhere between 2-4 years after AOTC.

If 2 years, Luke is 20 in ANH, if 4, then he is 18 in the BofYavin.

We never find out in a MOVIE, how Vader learns he has a son - and that his son blew up the Death Star. Vader could let Obi-Wan live purposely to protect his son so that Luke would not be brought down into the shame and evil that his father was. There COULD be a situation where Vader meets Obi-Wan. It wouldn't change our plot point too much, but they might meet and NOT fight. It would be wierd, but also explain why Luke retains the name Skywalker. Vader knows, but never expects to see his child or Obi-Wan again. He forgives Obi-Wan for saving the life of his son and pledging to protect him, but Obi-Wan "should not have come back!"

There's always that possibility leading Obi-Wan to know "He's more machine than man, now. Twisted and evil."

However, this can sort of make sense. Vader knows Obi-Wan tried to save him before the lava. Vader sees some of what is going on in the galaxy, and though he thinks he lost his wife, he knows that Obi-Wan tried to make things up to him by saving his son.

"The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin had any offspring, they would be a threat to him. So you were hidden from your father when you were born."

Thus implying even if Palpatine turned on Vader and tried to force information from him about his son, Vader wouldn't have known where they had gone. Obi-Wan just knew that Vader hated Tatooine and wouldn't want to go back there looking - unless some idiot stole the plans for the Death Star and was flying past that rock trying to flee the Dark Lord's star destroyer.

"Idiot" reminds me - what are R2 and C-3PO doing in all this?

I think they eventually wind up in Bail Organa's service, or lost so they can have their EU adventures in the cartoons. And THEN by coincidence wind up in Bail Organa's service (unless they were always trying to get back there to find Padme? It just took them years because no one would help droids - well after the Trade Federation?)

Anyway, in the COMIC "Vader's Quest," Darth learns that Luke blew up the Death Star. Then he starts his hunt for his son.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 07:44 PM
I suggested moving the posts out of guilt for starting this line of discussion in the first place. But, to support leaving it here, I'd say that it is more accessible and more to the point, a discussion about the plot elements in AOTC naturally leads to a review of what has come before and speculation about what is to come. In fact, if there ever was an argument for maintaining the "sanctity" of the OT this is a prime example of just how integrated the individual films are within a much bigger plot structure. You knock one domino down and more are bound to fall. Lucas drops a new element (Midichlorians) or a character (Sifo Dyas) into the mix and the discussion naturally crosses the borders into the other movies. So, if the necessities of the Forum Rules demand that portions of the discussion be moved elsewhere, then who am I to argue. But I think that there is argument there for both sides.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I thought of something else that needs to work with the OT:

If we never see Anakin become Vader, which I think we won't, then when Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father was killed by a pupil of his, we'll all know he's lying right there. But if you were watching the "12 hour movie" for the first time, you might dismiss this as guilt - Obi-Wan not wanting to tell Luke that HE was responsible for his father's death, and blaming it on a visible figure of the Dark Side.

This can't be corrected in the OT - it's part of the storyline through ROTJ. But I think "the new audience" will dismiss it as Obi-Wan feeling guilty and not telling Luke the truth for that reason - not suspecting Luke's father is still alive until the Cloud City confrontation.


I brought this problem up some time ago. There is a way around it, but I'm afraid that it may be too late for Lucas to save the situation. All we have to do is SEE Obi Wan teaching other students at some point. Perhaps even in emulation of Yoda's "young one's" scene. With that bit of info on screen, Old Ben's words in ANH won't necessarily give away the secret. It's a difficult line to get past for sure, but it can be done.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 07:48 PM
well, we know by episode iv, that r2 and 3p0 are owned by "captain antilles." if this is wedge, or bail we don't know. antilles seems to be the "jones" of the star wars galaxy. but it doesn't seem to me that they belong to bail organa.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 07:57 PM
is it possible to form a new forum of episode III speculations? i would be okay with this just being a new thread in one of the III forums that exist already, but i tend to not like spoilers, and just would like to speculate, but it has been voiced that some die hard non spoilers don't even like to speculate, so i think this would be a good solution.

otherwise, would anyone mind me starting a speculation thread in the episode III non-spoilers section?

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 07:58 PM
oh, dude, tycho, i didnt' realize you already had...

Tycho
05-21-2002, 08:02 PM
I made that thread over there just for you Darthvyn. But I suspect it will first go in circles with what is happening here until they all catch up with one another. Ultimately I'll have to stop participating here and in the non-spoiler one, or at least won't be able to contribute spoilers I learn of. Hmmm. I've even considered going spoiler free. Anyway, on to the droids...

Yes Darthvyn, somehow the droids follow Padme and then her heir, Leia.

They are at least around when Leia needs to become a hologram so she can make a VHTF action figure. :D

But I think if the Droids cartoons count (there is a Galactic Empire already existing in them so it is not Pre-TPM) then they must be lost and trying to find their way back to survivors of their 'family.'

I just don't know how to use them in Episode 3. Artoo will probably be Anakin's astromech in the close-to-the-opening starfighter fight. Padme sends him with her husband, I'm sure.

"We'll be safe. We have R2 with us!"

Maybe R2 and 3PO track the Mandalorian Clones who capture Padme and that is how they contact the Jedi (trying to contact Anakin - who they don't know is already 'dead' and instead getting Obi-Wan. OR Palpatine has Anakin's transmitter and tells the Jedi to go while "Sidious" orders Boba Fett to have a few surprises waiting for them. None of them expect the interference of the future Han Solo.

OK - that makes sense. The droids always get bit parts and do little things. But I'm reaching. Help me here.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 08:08 PM
seeing as though almost every victory for the "good guys" in star wars can be traced back to r2, we need him to be in it somehow... i think maybe i'll start posting inthis place... (http://sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8719)

stillakid
05-21-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I've even considered going spoiler free.

C'mon, join us. It's fun!



Originally posted by Tycho

I just don't know how to use them in Episode 3. Artoo will probably be Anakin's astromech in the close-to-the-opening starfighter fight. Padme sends him with her husband, I'm sure.

"We'll be safe. We have R2 with us!"

Maybe R2 and 3PO track the Mandalorian Clones who capture Padme and that is how they contact the Jedi (trying to contact Anakin - who they don't know is already 'dead' and instead getting Obi-Wan. OR Palpatine has Anakin's transmitter and tells the Jedi to go while "Sidious" orders Boba Fett to have a few surprises waiting for them. None of them expect the interference of the future Han Solo.

OK - that makes sense. The droids always get bit parts and do little things. But I'm reaching. Help me here.

Considering the R2 had absolutely ONE purpose in AOTC, that was to save Padme from being encased in molten steel (and at a time when Erratic Anakin somehow wasn't concerned about her for once), you could invent just about any half-conceived idea to include the Swiss Army Knife and get away with it. 3PO just took Jar Jar's place as the Jester, so the same goes for him as well.

JediTricks
05-21-2002, 09:53 PM
I'm not going to give this thread or its posts the heave-ho, but I'm also not going to suggest that we add a THIRD Ep3 forum either. Perhaps we could add a sub-section to non-spoiler Ep3, but you guys would have to successfully campaign that one in the Comments/Suggestions section first.

Tycho
05-22-2002, 06:42 PM
Something I just read in the new Insider's interview with George Lucas concerns me - and I'll add this information to the other 2 threads.

Lucas said that Darth Sidious can't just train another Sith Lord from his childhood like Darth Maul. He specifically sought to corrupt and turn a trained Jedi Master in order to turn Anakin. Lucas said that very specificially that Sidious is using Dooku to turn Anakin.

I once speculated that Dooku was Anakin's father. That there was no immaculate conception. Episode 2 would seem to confirm the latter. I'd guessed that Shmi would have told her son in her death scene and that the revelation would come there, sort of mirroring what happened in Empire. Then a situation would arise where a repeat of a theme in ROTJ would happen and it would play out "then strike him down and take your father's place at my side!"

Rather than see that directly in AOTC, we saw Dooku tempt Obi-Wan, "Join me and take your Master's place at my side" -referring to the dead Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan would not turn, but everyone (Tyranus/Dooku and we can assume Sidious/ Palpatine) now knows how volatile Anakin is. Plus if they've learned he's married, as Palpatine surely will, they will know how to get at him - through Padme, and to a lesser extent, through Obi-Wan (since Anakin rushed to rescue him). Of course Obi-Wan and Padme will be used as pawns in the Sith's attempt to turn Anakin, just as Han and Leia were used to lure Luke.

But why is Dooku specifically important in this? It could be so simple as to spark dissent concerning proceedure between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but it doesn't seem there needs to be any outside influence to do that, LOL. However, a focal point for Anakin's hatred if Dooku's soldiers are blamed for killing Padme? In my story, Dooku was the bait to take Anakin away from Padme's side so that Separatist forces could get to her while Anakin was engaged, lured by the chance to kill Dooku. Since Sidious is really manipulating these things, it makes some sense. Dooku might care less about Anakin, but he's not calling the shots anyway.

But could Dooku be Anakin's father? I made an effective case for that before but dismissed it because it was not revealed in Episode 2. I'll rehash those arguments in a minute, but here's some things that have to be added if it's possible.

1) Dooku doesn't know who Anakin Skywalker is, by name. He left before Obi-Wan returned with an apprentice, but he knew who Qui-Gon's apprentice had been. (Maybe they are going to CGI insert Dooku into Qui-Gon's funeral scene in TPM?)

2) Dooku might have had an illicit affair, like son - like father, but never knew that Shmi was pregnant, or believed she was dead and Palpatine discovered the truth about the whole affair when he researched Obi-Wan (because of Maul and Anakin), learned about Qui-Gon, which led him to Dooku where he made some amazing connections that even the audience hasn't yet. Remember, Palpatine knows everything. More than we do, at any rate.

3) Dooku doesn't know he was fighting his own son in Clones, nor does Anakin know about his father. This could be discovered after Anakin kills Dooku, or in between movies one of them learns the truth. Midichlorians and inherited skills and powers becomes validated through this.

4) Even if Anakin learns the truth, just as Luke Skywalker did, his father is guilty of trying to horribly kill his love interest (Padme - while Vader threatened Leia, even before Luke knew she was his sister, but perhaps that's the crux of the difference in why Anakin turns, and Luke doesn't - to protect the other sibling, who would have all the same powers and abilities Luke does - but is clearly not following the path to darkness. Anakin is alone. It's interesting why George makes Leia the sister and doesn't give the hero the girl in the end, right? Han could have been killed off.)

So the point is, Anakin knows and chooses to kill his own father. Like his mother once said, paraphrased, "[He] was no father. [He didn't] carry him. [He] didn't raise him." Dooku was not a part of Anakin's life, but he would destroy Obi-Wan and Padme - and Anakin's unborn child(ren) so Anakin has to hate him like he hated the Tusken Raiders who took his mother from him.

Perhaps Aurra Sing was hired to protect Anakin, because Dooku knew her and of her abilities. Another tie-in.

In my old story outline for this part (which like I said, I dismissed because no information about Episode 2 confirmed this and you think Shmi would have said something, or Dooku would have known he had a son???) but the plot points were something like this:

Dooku would be expelled from the Jedi Order.

They kept it a secret (him and Shmi)

Because he was a Jedi, his family was targeted by enemies (possibly) and his girl's parents were killed and she was sold into slavery with her 3 year old child (Anakin).

Dooku believed they were dead.

He told no one of this.

Qui-Gon was not his apprentice at this time:

1) Anakin was 9 in TPM, so when he was born that many years prior to that, Obi-Wan (24 in TPM) would have been 15. Jedi are apprenticed at age 13. So Obi-Wan would be with Qui-Gon, 35 yrs old then.

Therefore Qui-Gon would probably have been a Jedi Knight for 10 years beyond the time he'd trained with Dooku. Qui-Gon would have no knowledge of what his former master was doing, save for running into him on occasion at the Temple, and maybe they wrote each other.

2) Dooku would not have told Qui-Gon that he messed up with Shmi. They were keeping it a secret, right?

3) If he loved Shmi, and they were intimate, he would have told her about the life of a Jedi - about Qui-Gon Jinn, his one-time apprentice.

4) Shmi would know exactly WHO Qui-Gon was when her son brought him home from Watto's shop that day before the podrace. So when Anakin won his freedom, that is the reason she let her only son leave with Qui-Gon, Jedi Knight or not. (I mean don't the Jedi have to go through some kind of legal adoption process anyway?) So while Qui-Gon didn't know who Shmi was, there was something familiar to him about Anakin - well, duh: he was his former master's son.

But why would George make no mention of this in Episode 2 if it was true? That part of the plot is moving slower than ANH-ESB, when Vader was trying to kill Luke (in his TIE fighter) and didn't know he had a son. It's true these revelations would take 10 seconds during Episode 3, but the guilt and reprocussions could manifest themselves in a black mask! Hmmmm.

It makes you think. E3 would then really be a sensory overload!

Tycho
05-22-2002, 11:39 PM
We have a new problem here. Part of it has to do with a hole in my Han Solo is a clone theory, so bear with the analysis of that until we get to a hole in the whole prequel's FACTUAL continuity as established by TPM and AOTC!

Yup.

This has to do with exactly who Darth Tyranus is and how long he's been working with the Sith. I think I've uncovered evidence that he had to be there BEFORE Darth Maul was killed.

More than 2 there are - from a certain point of view...

take a bite into this - think about the implications not just for Han, but for Dooku. This could help speculation on Sifo-Dyas possibly, too (though I've yet to see how).

Here it is:


There's the idea that a lot of the Stormtroopers from the Classic movies are enlisted, volunteers, and forcibly recruited from across the galaxy.

Maybe the best of the best are still Clones, but that doesn't mean that they are from Han's template either. He STILL could be a Clone made back in the days 29 years before ANH.

Hmmm. Which means either Han had growth acceleration, or there was another cloning project going on at the same time as Kamino's, because Han couldn't possibly have been grown AFTER the Jedi took command of Kamino's Republic Clones. He looks way older than 22. If there age acceleration is geometric, that could solve this problem.

Anyway if Boba was started perhaps 2 years before TPM, Han had to be started about 3 years after TPM. But Jango would still be the donor, alive and well then....

So, 3 years after Maul died, did Palpatine tell his new apprentice Dooku, that in 'x' amount more years, he (Dooku that is) would need his own clone army? So Dooku got one going for the Separatists?

Also, something else doesn't make sense. If Tyranus replaced Maul, but recruited Jango Fett "on one of the moons of Bogden" a long enough time ago for Boba to be at least 12 in AOTC (no growth acceleration on Boba), than Tyranus was involved in this thing BEFORE Darth Maul died!

Interesting. Very interesting. Or the Clones were unrelated to the Sith plot until Palpatine found out about them after Maul died. But I doubt that. Palpatine's role is to know everything....

Hmmm. A new puzzle we have here, regardless if Han is or is not a Clone....

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 04:28 AM
I have yet to figure out why you are so attached to the idea that Han Solo is a clone. There is nothing in the movies that even hints at that. I know you have used Boba Fett's vendetta against Solo as the basis for your argument. However, the personal grudge between him and Boba doesn't exist outside of EU. There was never any indication that Boba Fett was interested in Han beyond the bounty Jabba and the Empire had placed on his head.

Tycho
05-23-2002, 05:54 AM
BigBarada, what you said is true.

All of it.

I guess I just think it's an exciting idea - the Fett / Solo nemesis, and it could possibly work.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
BigBarada, what you said is true.

All of it.

I guess I just think it's an exciting idea - the Fett / Solo nemesis, and it could possibly work.

I was intrigued at your hypothesis regarding the name "solo" and it's connection to the whole clone idea. I wonder if GL thought that far ahead or if it was just a name to "subconsciously" signify his general attitude toward life. (shrug) At this point, who can tell?

JangoTango
05-23-2002, 12:17 PM
Tycho- loved most of your speculation, however, I must agree with BigBarada on the Solo issue.
I think if we get the chance to see him in Ep 3, it will be a small cameo. Say, sitting at a corner table in a club on Coruscant or Corellia, perhaps playing a "card game" with Lando and Chewie??

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
BigBarada, what you said is true.

All of it.

I guess I just think it's an exciting idea - the Fett / Solo nemesis, and it could possibly work.

I guess we all have our own takes on the backstory of many characters. Look on the bright side, Ep3 probably won't provide any plotpoints to contradict your theory.:)

I agree with stillakid, the name Solo was probably just intended to give some insight into Han's personality. Although the name Solo did exist when Han was the main hero of the story. But Boba Fett didn't exist at that point so that shoots down the idea of a connection. (Darth Vader's original role in the films was to be a bounty hunter and mercenary, but when GL decided to make him a Sith Lord, he had to create Fett to fill the mercenary slot. Another reason for me to believe that Darth was originally Vader's first name, not a Sith title.)

Mad Slanted Powers
05-24-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Something I just read in the new Insider's interview with George Lucas concerns me - and I'll add this information to the other 2 threads.

Lucas said that Darth Sidious can't just train another Sith Lord from his childhood like Darth Maul. He specifically sought to corrupt and turn a trained Jedi Master in order to turn Anakin. Lucas said that very specificially that Sidious is using Dooku to turn Anakin.



I read this differently. Here is the quote from the article "... he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way." I think it is more to establish the point that a Jedi could be turned, and not necessarily that Dooku was being used to turn Anakin. However, using Dooku to turn Anakin is certainly a possibility.

Tycho
05-24-2002, 12:24 AM
True his quote isn't exactly specifying characters, Posty, but who else could he mean? Sifo-Dyas to turn Dooku? Maybe. But it's pretty late to be introducing more characters and the end result of this whole thing is that Anakin must be turned to the Dark Side.

It would serve no point to turn Marvin the Martian now. The story's too busy with loose ends to resolve already, that this better mean it's about Anakin (the quote). Now we already have Sifo-Dyas to take care of in Episode III. And he needs a backstory while he's supposedly already dead?

Nah. George meant Anakin. Had to be.

Would you agree?

2-1B
05-24-2002, 01:24 AM
I think George meant Dooku. After TPM, Anakin must look like a pretty good future Sith with all of his potential. By using Dooku for a decade, he keeps his plan moving (even more efficiently than could have been achieved with Maul) until Anakin can be turned. Killing Dooku will give him immediate gratification and the sense of power. His agressive feelings and hatred will make him powerful . . . powerful enough to take down the same guy who kicked his behind a few years earlier. :)

Mad Slanted Powers
05-25-2002, 01:16 PM
This is to clear up any confusion about what I was trying to say. I think the point in the article was that by showing that a former Jedi like Dooku could turn to the Dark Side establishes the possibility that Anakin could be turned. Sidious may use Dooku just like Vader was being used in ROTJ, or he may use a different method that doesn't require Dooku.

Mad Slanted Powers
05-25-2002, 01:30 PM
I think Han Solo will be too young to appear in Episode 3 playing cards with Lando and Chewie. If Episode III is 20 years before ANH, then he will be somewhere around 5-10 years old, as he is only about that much older than Luke. If I remember correctly from the A.C. Crispin Han Solo Trilogy, Han is about 17 or 18 at the beginning, which is about 10 years before ANH. This would make him 7 or 8 in Episode III. Even disregarding this or any other EU stories, he still wouldn't be much older than that.


Originally posted by JangoTango
Tycho- loved most of your speculation, however, I must agree with BigBarada on the Solo issue.
I think if we get the chance to see him in Ep 3, it will be a small cameo. Say, sitting at a corner table in a club on Coruscant or Corellia, perhaps playing a "card game" with Lando and Chewie??

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 04:12 PM
At this point I'm a little worried that GL will add Han into Ep3 and basically screw up all the history written for him in the two Han Solo trilogies. I guess I can understand what the Boba Fett fans where complaining about. Although the novels aren't too clear on Han's early years, but he did run into his cousin on Corellia; or someone who claimed to be his cousin. In any case, if Han does show up then it will most likely be nothing more than a cameo and shouldn't screw up too much (unless he shows up in the Jedi Academy with a lightsaber).

stillakid
05-25-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
At this point I'm a little worried that GL will add Han into Ep3 and basically screw up all the history written for him in the two Han Solo trilogies. I guess I can understand what the Boba Fett fans where complaining about. Although the novels aren't too clear on Han's early years, but he did run into his cousin on Corellia; or someone who claimed to be his cousin. In any case, if Han does show up then it will most likely be nothing more than a cameo and shouldn't screw up too much (unless he shows up in the Jedi Academy with a lightsaber).

I'm a little lost on Han's age, but he doesn't appear to be old enough in ANH to justify putting him in Ep III as anything other than a small kid. If Luke was about 20 in ANH, Han appears to be early to mid thirties or so? That would make him around 10ish at the time III probably happens. :confused: And certainly, I can't imagine anything his character could contribute to the advancement of the plot. He was introduced in ANH because the heroes needed to get from point A to point B. He took a liking to the heroes (and the damsel in distress) so he stuck around.

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 05:18 PM
Using the timeline GL gave us, Ep4 takes place 20 years after Ep3 and Han is around 29-30 in Ep4. Thus he would be 9 or 10 in EP3. Oddly enough, Han's story in the AC Crispin novels begins when he is about nine, if I'm not mistaken, and the rest of his past is somewhat hazy to him. Hmmmmmmm......

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the novel, but maybe GL instructed Crispin to leave everything that happens to Han before 9 as hazy and still a mystery. Hmmmmmmmmm.......

:confused:

Tycho
05-25-2002, 05:41 PM
Obviously I have Han being a trained Clone child in my take. So he could contribute in a minimal way just as the young Boba Fett turned on Slave One and fired its guns at Obi-Wan to help defend his father.

Han on the other hand, will help Padme, and ironically, his future wife (though the 10 year old Clone would have no clue as to that)

Han can 1) open a door 2) smuggle someone guns 3) tell them how to escape 4) distract Boba Fett or whoever's in charge.

He will be disobeying orders. Why? He's a rebel. True to the bone, and most ironic as in ANH and ESB he won't admit it because he doesn't know himself that well. His love for Leia and his friendship with Luke will change him - the impact the Jedi Twins have on the enemy-turned-hero. Classic mythology.

As to the Expanded Universe and exactly what is in

a) A.C. Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy (Paradise Snare, Hutt Gambit, Rebel Dawn) - the best SW books EVER!

b) Brian Daley's Han Solo Adventures (Star's End, HS's Revenge, and The Lost Legacy)

and

c) Darko Macan's comic "Chewbacca"

and

d) an off-shoot reference in Christine Kathryn Rusch's
"The New Rebellion"

these are the facts (and I've read them all 3 times or more!):

They will not negate any Clone theory:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Denn Solo fled Corellia's core systems (Corellia, Drall, Selonia) to make a life for himself and his wife Mrs. Gamma-Solo. There may have been a blood feud within the family, due to relations to Solo-the-Black, a known pirate and murderer.

Corellians take family EXTREMELY seriously. One is terribly loyal to one's house and family. If Solo The Black became the leading patriarch, and Denn was his cousin or brother or something, not supporting the crazy pirate could have merited a death sentence- a blood feud WITHIN the Solo family!

Denn and Grandma Gamma-Solo left Corellia and lived on a farming colony world. A raid by PIRATES there split the two of them up. To protect their children, they separated. Denn and the son were never seen again.

The mother (Grandma Gamma, and the daughter, Tion, returned to Corellia, while presumably the Solo's enemies pursued the direct blood relative, Denn). Tion was raised in the Gamma household and married a merchant captain named something-Sal. He died under dubious conditions later on. They had one son - Thrackan Sal-Solo.

If Han did NOT have growth acceleration, and he is 29 in ANH, then the disappearance of Denn must have happened approximately 30 years before before TPM. Then his son would be about 30 during TPM (Denn would be 60 if still alive). Han was born 3 years after TPM if he is NOT a Clone. Approximately 30 years after that (The Empire Strikes Back time), Han's father would be 60 and Denn (if still alive) would be 90.

Maybe the father was a mercenary and survivalist who gave himself up for genetic cloning for money to survive - just like people dontate blood or plasma.

In my version, Han was a rebellious Clone who disobeyed an immoral order - to kill a woman with newborn children! Regardless of whether he's still a child - approximately 11 years old at that point - I doubt most of you killed pregnant women, or women and children, and especially at 11 years of age!

For disobeying orders and making an early enemy out of Fett (then 16-17 and with a huge chip on his shoulder - not to mention dead padawan's braids), Han had to run away.

As a youngster, he lived off of begging and digging in garbage cans on the streets of Corellia. No doubt, if a Clone Warrior with survival training, he lasted longer than most kids would have.

Pirate Captain Gariss Shrike found him begging. Shrike offered him a job (slavery basically) on his freighter barge where Shrike kept stray children he used as pick-pockets and whatever else he pimped them for. He was an evil man given to gambling and drinking etc. He had teamed up with a Wookiee outcast who was blamed for crimes he didn't commit and exiled from Kashyyk along with his wife, Dewlanna, who served as Shrike's cook. She took an instant liking to the little kid she called Han and his sense that beings should be treated with justice. She taught him to understand the Shryywook language of Kashyyk and stayed aboard when her husband was killed so she could protect Han from Shrike who beat him. Shrike also used Han's abilities as a pilot (Clone training?) to make his race speeder bikes. Fearing a beating, in one such instance, Han sort of improvised (cheated?) and nearly fatally injured a rival (like Sebulba) who was named Dengar. Dengar later had bionic surgeries to fully recover and he became an Imperial soldier and then a bounty hunter.

Han ran away from Shrike when Dewlanna was killed trying to protect him. He swore he'd help another Wookiee to repay her.

Han fell in working for the Hutts and fell in love with one of their slaves and ultimately killed a Hutt (a rival of Jabba's) when he robbed the Hutt and escaped with loot, a stolen ship, and his girlfriend, Bria Tharen. He was going to marry her and use fake records to join the Imperial Navy. She left him and joined the Rebel Alliance.

Han became an Officer training in a class with the future Baron Soontir Fel, an academy friend of Han's. He graduated first in his class and was honored by Tarkin on a political tour of the campus. Han won command of a TIE wing and protected the Empire's mercantile interests on the Outer Rim. He was already 23 years old.

Meanwhile, Chewbacca had been in love with a Wookiee female named Mallatabuck who secretly loved Chewie. She became a school teacher while Chewie was becoming an engineer. When Malla and her children she instructed were taken by Trandoshan slavers (Bossk's species) Chewie ripped the lizards apart limb by limb until he found her. He took one of their ships and swore he'd bring home all of the missing Wookiee children. He waged a bloody one-man-war against Trandosha and rallied other Wookiee warriors to his cause. He even went to the Core to testify in the Senate against Trandoshan slavery practices. When that failed, his methods and his men became more violent. Citing that the Wookiees were animals and the Trandoshan "merchants" needed protection, they asked the Empire to protect them. This unofficially allowed the Empire into the slave trade.

Lt. Solo's TIE wing caught site of Chewbacca's 'terrorist ship' attacking and cripling a Trandoshan freighter. Chewie had already boarded the Trandoshan ship and killed all of its crew by the time the Imperials were within range. Chewie ordered the older Wookiees and the women to fly his ship away, while he used the Trandoshan freighter's weapons to distract the Imperials. He was no match for a whole squadron of TIE Fighters and a Nebulon Frigate. He was the only person aboard when Lt. Han Solo took him prisoner. Han was 23 years old and in line to be promoted to Lt. Cmdr.

Less than a year later, Han caught site of what had become of Chewie, being beaten and ready to turn on his Imperial masters and be killed for ripping them apart. Han remembered his promise to Dewlanna and helped Chewie do it. Chewie escaped and Han was captured, beaten, tortured, court-martialed and had his pilot's license revoked. He was turned out on the streets and trying to commit suicide by cheating at gambling with very dangerous types when Chewbacca decided Han "had won that hand" and no one wanted to argue with a very angry Wookiee. Chewie thought he owed Han, but also thought Han was a pathetic child (Chewie was 194 years old afterall). Chewie worked to straighten out Han's life, but they needed to work and Han didn't have a license. Jabba owed him and was fond of the boy who had taken out a rival Hutt at only age 19. You know the rest of the story - save for one fact: Boba Fett was also working for Jabba from time to time - AND the rival faction that wanted Han (under a different name) dead for killing a Hutt (a relative of Durga the Hutt's). JABBA PAID Boba Fett to leave Han alone! If Fett touched Han, he would die, not Solo!

But business is business and you know the rest.

NOTHING SAYS HAN can't also be a CLONE WARRIOR! It all jives if you take the EU in or discard it.

EU that negates anything that would become cannon IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE PUBLISHED!

So the EU is legitimized since there is only one continuity and the films are part of it.

Furthermore, purists who state only the movies are cannon, while they can be called correct from a certain point of view, will not see films come out that negate the EU.

Even the Fett - Jaster Mureel thing was just resolved! See your comic book store NOW and on the shelves you will find Jango Fett #1. This is not the Jango Fett TPB. This is a single thin issue to be continued next month.

In it, you'll learn that Jaster Mureel saved Jango Fett's life and Jango adopted him as sort of a hero / father figure when his own father was killed on Concord Dawn. He kept the Mandalorian armor of Jaster when Jaster was likely killed as the Jedi wiped them out for crimes they didn't commit. Boba, Jango's son, donned Jaster's armor to honor the man who saved his father, so he could be someone his father would be proud of.

The EU holds. People who tell creative stories and make them mesh should be appreciated and applauded, and Han can and probably will be a Clone!

Beast
05-25-2002, 05:58 PM
Only problem I see with the whole Han clone theroy Tycho, is because the Kamino cloners state that the Clones are bred and trained to follow orders. And in the visual dictionary, it says that the clones are inspected at every stage of life to identify those who have drifted from the standard. Aberrant clones are given extra conditioning to regulize them. It also says that the clones don't have normal personalities. So Han doesn't really fit the pattern. He only would if he was an unaltered clone like Boba, but then who would order him? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 06:08 PM
I have the two Han trilogies, but thanks for pointing me in the direction of more stories of Han's past.:) The only bit of EU I really subscribe to and hope doesn't get contradicted.

Interesting analysis, and it pretty much shows that having Han be a clone will do little to his story; but I still doubt it will happen.;)

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 06:12 PM
Not to totally shoot your point down, Jar Jar; but remember when Taun We said that the Ep2 clone army was the finest they had ever created? Implying that they had created others before? Maybe growth acceleration and indepency-inhibitors weren't possible in previous batches and the clones of Jango represented a significant technological advance. Geez, I can't believe I am helping argue Tycho's Han/Clone theory.;)

Tycho
05-25-2002, 06:17 PM
This is reaching, but what if Boba Fett did? Boba has no family, his father was his only influence. And Boba cannot be cloned because of what we'd guess would be genetic degradation.

That would explain why a 10 year old Han could have been left in charge. But Han wouldn't be a little brother, or even 'a son' to Fett. He's from a different genetic background anyway, and he was given an immoral order! Fett didn't create that order, but he heard it from Tarkin or even Darth Sidious personally. He would not question that. Plus his heart is twisted and perhaps he could kill a mother and newborns - or hoped his obedient prodigy would save him the trouble. But Han would not obey that order!

That is reaching too far I think, but Fett is nearly 20, so he could have children - some of us do in our 20's. (not me personally) However, with growth acceleration, Fett would have a 5 - 10 year old son (half his age) in half the normal time. But then again, do you see that guy caring for a baby the way his father did for him?

Ohhh. But if Han betrayed him, it would go even deeper than what we thought! Wow!

E2 is about betrayal:

Han to Fett?
Palpatine to the Republic
Palpatine to Dooku
Dooku to Palpatine
Anakin to Obi-Wan
Mace to the Jedi?
JarJar to Padme (in E2 actually, but rectified in E3 with his sacrafice)

and the last one Anakin doesn't see:

Palpatine to Anakin

Wow! It fits a theme.

stillakid
05-25-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Only problem I see with the whole Han clone theroy Tycho, is because the Kamino cloners state that the Clones are bred and trained to follow orders. And in the visual dictionary, it says that the clones are inspected at every stage of life to identify those who have drifted from the standard. Aberrant clones are given extra conditioning to regulize them. It also says that the clones don't have normal personalities. So Han doesn't really fit the pattern. He only would if he was an unaltered clone like Boba, but then who would order him? :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Did that actor get paid each time his "image" shows up onscreen? ;)

Tycho
05-25-2002, 06:19 PM
I also like BigBarada's idea that maybe Han comes from an older template. Save for the fact that he is younger than Fett....

Tycho
06-05-2002, 04:34 PM
OK - new proof E3 will NOT show us Anakin getting into the Vader armor - NO SPOILERS - everything's still speculation at this point, BUT LOGIC IS A POWERFUL ALLY!

OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

JangoTango
06-05-2002, 11:42 PM
Tycho, as you quoted ANH:

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father."


I must add my arguments for us getting to see Vader in his suit at the end of III.

I think that this quote, if you take it in the context of Obi-Wan's character, shows that Obi must now take it upon himself to reveal info to Luke on a "need to know" basis. As the [later added] title suggests: "A New Hope". That new hope is in fact Luke, and in order to keep his mind clear as he begins his much-too-late Jedi training, he needs to be protected from anything that might lead him to the path his father chose. If it was revealed right away that Vader is Luke's father, then Luke might seek him out to find out what happened, and then he'd be toast. Ben reveals only what is necessary to Luke to protect him. As we see in ROTJ, Ben still 'believes' that Vader did kill Luke's father "from a certain point of view". Obviously Yoda's interests were the same as Ben's, because he is very reluctant to tell Luke the truth also.

As for my speculation for episode III, I think Anakin will still be under Obi-Wan's guidance, perhaps with ep III beginning with his completion of the trials. (Episode III starts 4 years after Clones, from what I've read). He will soon be found out as Padme delivers, revealing to the Jedi order that he has married and created offspring. THEN they will expel him, causing him to go to Palpatine for any 'help' or 'advice' he may be able to give him. Palpatine will then somehow reveal himself to Anakin as Sidious, and ask Anakin to join him as his right arm, together ruling the galaxy. Palpatine will then lead Anakin to believe that the Jedi have killed his wife and child (no one will know there's two except Yoda and maybe Bail Organa, Plo or Ki-Adi; Obi Wan cannot know of Leia (see ESB, "that boy was our only hope", "no, there is another..."). Anakin will complete his fall, and begin hunting the Jedi for murdering his child and wife. This is when he will fight Obi-Wan and fall to the pit.

I think episode III's final 1/2 hour will play out with Obi's defeat of Anakin and Sidious rescuing Anakin; Bail returning to Alderaan with Leia and secretly meeting with leaders of the impending Rebellion; Obi taking Luke to Tattooine, and dropping Yoda off on Dagobah on the way--with some dialog about how he'll return with the boy 'when he's ready'; and perhaps Gov Tarkin, maybe Motti and some of the regional Governors meeting with Sidious on Coruscant, a scene in which Sidious introduces his new 'Aide' or 'apprentice' Darth Vader--who will perhaps stand in Mas Amedda's place in the now Imperial Senate. :cool:

All I know is that George will once again be genious as he was with Clones and all the tie in's.

And as for continuity, I will still have my kids watch it in its original order IV-VI, I-III when they are old enough.

I also think that when the droids' memories are purged, that will serve as the true 'breaking point' between the two trilogies.

"I dunno, I'm makin' this up as I go.";)

stillakid
06-06-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
OK - new proof E3 will NOT show us Anakin getting into the Vader armor - NO SPOILERS - everything's still speculation at this point, BUT LOGIC IS A POWERFUL ALLY!

OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

I second this motion. Not that it's necessary because it's the ONLY logical plot that can occur without absolutely destroying every plot twist that currently exists in the OT.

If, as a fan, you're interested in cheap adrenaline thrills, then ask George to throw Hayden in the mask.

However, if you want a 6 part saga that makes an attempt at being cohesive, then the Obi/Ani fight MUST end with Anakin APPEARING to die but being inconclusive. Period. End of discussion.

Needles
07-08-2002, 12:02 AM
ep2 10/10
my favorites in order
EP2
EP6
EP4
EP1
Ecant wait till ep3 should be good,most likely it'll be awesome!:D

Needles
07-08-2002, 12:14 AM
heres better proof Tycho
Two years after Attack of the Clones, Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala are married, The Republic is at war with Count Dooku's Confederacy of Independent Systems, and Darth Sidious is preparing to make the final move that will ensure him control of the galaxy. With it's nearly endless supply of clone soldiers, the Republic is gaining ground against the Confederacy. Determined to avoid defeat, Dooku places a bounty on the Jedi Knights, who have already come under fire from the Republic itself. When Anakin turns to the Dark Side of the Force and joins the genocidal purge, Obi-Wan Kenobi must fight to protect Padme and her children as he heads toward a tragic showdown with his former pupil.

I got this from www.moviedatabase.com
hope this is good!

Needles
07-08-2002, 12:16 AM
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Natalie Portman .... Senator Padmé Amidala-Skywalker
Hayden Christensen .... Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
Ian McDiarmid .... Supreme Chancellor Cos Palpatine/Darth Sidious
Samuel L. Jackson .... Mace Windu
Christopher Lee .... Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus
Frank Oz .... Jedi Master Yoda
James Earl Jones .... Voice of Darth Vader
Jimmy Smits .... Senator Bail Organa
Anthony Daniels .... C-3PO
Kenny Baker (I) .... R2-D2
heres returning cast,oh yeah Anikan wont be in the vador suit till end of movie.

Tycho
07-08-2002, 12:36 AM
Very interesting Needles! It conflicts with some spoiler information that I've read, in an extemely unimportant way really.

But the idea that Anakin joins Dooku is interesting. I never thought of that one. I doubt it, but it's creative so let's give moviedatabase.com some credit for that.

Anyway, welcome to the forums Needles. We're glad to see you here! :)

Needles
07-08-2002, 03:58 PM
thanks!

Needles
07-08-2002, 11:01 PM
i was just reading some reviews on the han solo in EP3,I think that if George puts him in then EP3 would have to be about 20 years later making Anikan 40 years old,and in the plot summary form Movie database,it says that Anikan was the former pupil of Obi-Wan making the movie to take place any years after EP2,but Anikan has children that are about 3 years old,how long in their marriage were they childless?but if Luke and leia are about 3 Han would hafta be about 10-15,it would make no sense,but we dont know much about Hans child hood,or how long he new Chewie,so I think George wont care about the han solo book series and put him in.Ive spotted many many mistakes in the old trilogy,because of EP1,but I havent seen the oringinal trilogy in months,so I could be wrong about the mistakes I have found,but anyway George should have no complaints or arguements about having Han in EP3,they may even show Solos Corellia in EP3.

jet chan
07-09-2002, 07:05 PM
:crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :crazed: :D :D :D :D :D :D :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: i'll have to see it several more times to deside if i like it or not(hint,hint)

Nebulaz
07-11-2002, 02:50 AM
Enjoyed every moment, lightsaber fights were awesome.

MFH
07-12-2002, 08:33 PM
AOTC is great!!! A huge improvement over TPM.