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Sidiously Darth
05-16-2002, 03:57 AM
the Jedi that Obi-Wan thought died 10 years before Ep. II? I can't remember his name.:frus:

Beast
05-16-2002, 03:59 AM
Sifo-Dyas.

Sidiously Darth
05-16-2002, 04:04 AM
Was it ever determined if that was the name Sidious used to get the clone army or was it Dooku? Lama Su mentioned that name as the person who ordered the clones but Jango's contact was Tyranus.

Jedi Clint
05-16-2002, 04:11 AM
He was an actual Jedi Master. He died around the same time TPM took place. He is NOT Palpatine/Sidious.

Sidiously Darth
05-16-2002, 04:14 AM
Yes, I understand he was a real person. But did he place the order for the clones, which Mace denies, or did Sidious or Dooku use his name as an alias?

Jedi Clint
05-16-2002, 04:21 AM
Good question.

Lord Malakite
05-16-2002, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Sidiously Darth
Yes, I understand he was a real person. But did he place the order for the clones, which Mace denies, or did Sidious or Dooku use his name as an alias?

The way Yoda and Mace were talking to Obi in the movie suggest that Sifo-Dyas died before the date that the order was placed. So it is assumed that either Tyranus or more likely Sidious placed the order.

2-1B
05-16-2002, 05:17 AM
True, Dooku could have easily impersonated Sifo-Dyas since he was a "Jedi" himself.

Pendo
05-16-2002, 05:09 PM
I would liked it to be more obvious who Sifo-Dyas was but it wasn't mentioned that he was Sidious. Also I don't remember it being revealed that Dooku is Darth Tyranus. Hopefully these will be covered in Episode III.

PENDO!

Darth Evil
05-16-2002, 05:20 PM
Dooku is revealed as being Darth Tyranus, Sidious refers to him as such when they meet at the end.

Pendo
05-16-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Darth Evil
Dooku is revealed as being Darth Tyranus, Sidious refers to him as such when they meet at the end.

Thanx, I musn't have been listening properly...:( I don't know how I missed that, I must just have forgotten.

PENDO!

Darth Evil
05-16-2002, 05:24 PM
Well, he says "Lord Tyranus", not Darth, but still...

DeadEye
05-16-2002, 05:35 PM
Well, what else would he be? "Mr. Tyranus"? :p

jawaboy
05-16-2002, 05:41 PM
It appears that the clone army was ordered BEFORE the events of TPM took place. So it would not have been Dooku who ordered the clones. It was either Sidious or possibly Maul who did it for him.

I remember something strange being said by Dooku about how the Sith's apprentice came to Dooku because he felt betrayed. Does anyone else remember these lines. Dooku said it to Obi-wan.

Beast
05-16-2002, 05:45 PM
He said the Neimodian Viceroy, Nute Gunray came to him and told him of being betrayed by Darth Sidious. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Vortex
05-16-2002, 05:50 PM
Taun We miss took Obi-wan for the order placer, so it could have been any rogue jedi. Maul, Dooku, Sidious...could have been a pawn under dark force control that issued the order...its all part of the mystery.

In the "Open Season" Jango Fett comic Dooku was the one responsible for finding the source of the clone army, so I think it would be safe to assume it was Dooku who originally placed the order.

Plus Sidious never gets his hands involved. He uses pawns to do his work, Nute, Maul, Dooku, Ville, Jar Jar, Anakin, Yoda...etc. so if they are caught, or something does happen the path back to him is hard to trace.

That's just my take though.

Vortex
05-16-2002, 05:51 PM
Whoops, personaly typo. It should be Dooku was the one responsible for finding the source FOR the clone army...try that, see it makes more sense...

I always got bad marks in english class.

Vortex
05-16-2002, 05:52 PM
Ahhh heck...ok, ok, bad spelling above again.

Who needs a decoder ring for my messages??? Anyone???

Beast
05-16-2002, 05:55 PM
One thing I thought was intresting, was when Dooku meeds Sidious in the secret Sith Hanger on Coruscant. It's pretty odd that if Palpatine is Sidious, that he would change into his Sith robes to meet him. It's not like he would be hiding his identity to Dooku. I know it was done to keep the audience guessing. Why not just go as he is, darn you Lucas...you are still leaving a big question mark as to whether Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Guess we will have to wait til E3, for that to be revealed. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Vortex
05-16-2002, 06:05 PM
Only 2 there are...to quote yoda.

Here's a brain frier...what if Sidious is Palpatine's mentor, and Palpatine was just using Dooku and Maul as knights on a chessboard or rooks, wouldn't that toss everyone for a loop? Not truely darksiders, just powerful strong pieces in a giant universal game of chess. Plus, in the OT do we really get a name to go with the title of Emperor? My memory might be failing me here, but I don't ever think anyone called him Emperor Palpatine. Hmmmmm...deception maybe?

pthfnder89
05-16-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
One thing I thought was intresting, was when Dooku meeds Sidious in the secret Sith Hanger on Coruscant. It's pretty odd that if Palpatine is Sidious, that he would change into his Sith robes to meet him. It's not like he would be hiding his identity to Dooku. I know it was done to keep the audience guessing. Why not just go as he is, darn you Lucas...you are still leaving a big question mark as to whether Palpatine and Sidious are the same person. Guess we will have to wait til E3, for that to be revealed. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Well he did the same thing in TPM when he was talking with Darth Maul on Coruscant. Presumab;y Maul knew who he was as well, so there's not much of a reason except to keep the audience guessing.

Runobot
05-16-2002, 07:12 PM
I am pretty sure that it was in ANH that they said when in a meeting on the Death Star that Palpatine has declared himself Emperor and dissolved the Republic...

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 12:16 AM
http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=85467#post85467

2-1B
05-17-2002, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by tjovonovich
Taun We miss took Obi-wan for the order placer

I think she only made the false assumption that he was there as a result of Sifo-Dyas. She wasn't surprised when Obi-Wan introduced himself to Lama Su. :)

Darth Pug
05-17-2002, 07:41 AM
Some theories I have:

Maybe Chancellor Palpatine is not Darth Sidious and is only controlled by him and the Sith.

Darth Sidious and Master Sido-Dyas sound pretty close? The same person?

Count Dooku (Darth Tyranus) had some kick *** powers for just a regular Sith Lord. He was more powerful than Darth Vader ever was (in any of the SW films), who is supposed to be the most powerful next to the Emperor.

Vortex
05-17-2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Runobot
I am pretty sure that it was in ANH that they said when in a meeting on the Death Star that Palpatine has declared himself Emperor and dissolved the Republic...

I thought Tarkin just bust into the room and said something to the effect of that's no longer a broblem, the emperor has just disolved the senate and then goes on about regional goveners controlling their systems...a.k.a the moffs.

I'll have to check, but I thought the 1st place I even seen/heard the name palpatine was in one of old EU books...but I could be mistaken.

good shot jansen
05-17-2002, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Darth Pug
Some theories I have:

Darth Sidious and Master Sido-Dyas sound pretty close? The same person?



nice observation dp! i like that! we don't have to worry about some unknown jedi who is so instrumental to the story with that theory.:)

until i know otherwise, that's the story i'm stickin' with! :D

IcebergSlim
05-17-2002, 09:27 AM
Because Sido Dyas is pretty similar to Sidious....

Darth Nihilus
05-17-2002, 10:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that they say Sifo in the movie - that's what it sounded like.

Lord Malakite
05-17-2002, 10:11 AM
Sifo-Dyas.

DahrJin
05-17-2002, 10:19 AM
At first it was Sido Dyas AKA Sidious. Who ordered the clone army. Then at the last minute it was changed to Sifo-Dyas. Why it was changed, who knows. Maybe Ol' George didn't want to give too much away.

2-1B
05-17-2002, 11:45 AM
But the Sido-Dyas name was either an error or prodcution change, since the name used in AOTC is Sifo-Dyas.

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 12:40 PM
This comes from the AOTC novel.

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"

It is clear that he was a Jedi Master. He was killed about the same time TPM happened......probably shortly before......maybe after. He is not Palpatine.

jawaboy
05-17-2002, 12:47 PM
Doesn't mean it isn't Palpatine.

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 12:52 PM
Do you mean that Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan all new Sifo-Dyas and Senator/Chancellor Palpatine, and did not know they were the same person?

good shot jansen
05-17-2002, 01:14 PM
hmmmm, he died at the same time as the phantom menace huh?

obi-wans diner friend made it clear that the kimono's only respond to those with deep pockets.

i'm sure the trade federation paid a handsome sum to sideous enablin' him to pay the price for the creation of the clone army. dooku told obi-wan that sideous double crossed nute and gang, i'm sure that's a reference to the money paid by the federation but they never got the results they were hoping for.

this now once again raises the question of sideous/palpatine, are they the same?

maybe sideous was syfo-dyas, and he staged his death to become sideous full time.

maybe sideous is in fact a changling (like zam), and is not only palapatine, but is also sifo dyas, and changed his apperance when he interacted with other people as sifo-dyas.

wow, the plot keeps getting more and more intriguing

i can't believe i have to wait another three years now!

Mace Windex
05-17-2002, 01:46 PM
Has anyone considered that Palpatine is using the name SIDIOUS as a word play on SYPHO DIAS? I was thinking that maybe he killed this Jedi himself and assumed the name.
From reading though it is noted that the Emporer was formerly Palpatine so there is no argument there. I have always wondered if one is the original and the other is a clone. The weird thing is that if Palpatine was a Jedi,Yoda would recognize him. So what gives? There is a lot that needs explaining.

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 01:55 PM
It really seems like no one has read the quotes I copied from the text of the AOTC novel.

good shot jansen
05-17-2002, 01:59 PM
actually it was those very quotes that you posted jc, that got me thinking! :eek:

more questions than answers this riddle does propose

El Chuxter
05-17-2002, 02:08 PM
Obi-Wan's discovery of the clone army and Yoda's subsequent use of them seems to have been completely unplanned by whichever of the two Sith placed the order. So, um, what was the original plan for their use?

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 02:14 PM
The plan was to kill Amidala (the leader of resistance to the military creation act) and pass the bill through the senate.

GSJ,

I don't see how the information in the text that I posted allows for the interpretation that Sifo-Dyas was anyone the audience alread knows. Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan knew him, and they aren't drawing those conclusions.

Perhaps it is because I don't buy into Palpatine and Sidious being different people.

BespinRunt
05-17-2002, 05:05 PM
>>Yoda's subsequent use of them seems to have been completely unplanned by whichever of the two Sith placed the order>>

I don't think so. If you acept that Palpatine *is* Sidious, then the Dark Lord's machinations are far more complex.

Now, understand that Sidious/Palpatine/Emperor is either a former Jedi... or at least is learned in their ways (he uses force lightning and can forsee the future). Begin to contemplate a Senator who forsees the rise of the Chosen One. He begins dealing with the Trade Federation to attack Naboo, knowing the Queen will end up on Tatooine, and bring the Chosen One to the Jedi. His two personas allows him to fight on both sides, manipulating both to his ends.

Sidious screwed the Trade Federation in Episode 1, right? He promised them Naboo, and the taxation of trade routes... instead the got the shaft, and were exiled or something. So they run to the Jedi-dropout Dooku, who promises them revenge on Amidala. But Dooku is actually Maul's successor, Tyranus. So Sidious has still got Gunray and the Trade Federation guys playing his game, tey just don't know it. To that end, Sidious is playing up the rade Federation, Dooku, and the Droid Armies as the "bad guys"... but they're all his pawns!

On the other hand, Sidious has also gone ahead (with Tyranus' help) with a clone army on Kimino. His other identity, Palpatine, uses the Seperatist Movement (created by his own "bad guy" his own pawns) to give himself total power, and the right to use his clone army to defeat the supposed threat. The Clones, the Seperatists, and the wars are an excuse for Sidious to become Emperor, and all of the double talk by Dooku (pretending not to know Gunray's enemy Sidious) is there to throw the Jedi for a loop (which has ben sucessful thus far).

Palpatines playing the galaxy like a fiddle, using his Dark Side powers of Force dampening to keep the Jedi from discovering his tricks.

This truly is the darker of the two Trilogies. And damn interesting when you start pulling all the strings of Epiosde 1 and 2 together...

RooJay
05-17-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by El Chuxter
Obi-Wan's discovery of the clone army and Yoda's subsequent use of them seems to have been completely unplanned by whichever of the two Sith placed the order. So, um, what was the original plan for their use?
Umm...but I thought EVERYTHING was going according to Sidious' plan...

darthvyn
05-17-2002, 09:28 PM
okay, if you're trying to take over the galaxy, do you make a huge rigid plan that everything must fall into place, or do you go with the flow, feel things out and use every possiblilty to your advantage?

he also says everything is happening as he has forseen, not as he planned.

mabudonicus
05-17-2002, 09:54 PM
IMO, sidious is seefo dayus or whatever. Imagine- if he is more powerful with the force, he could hide facts better than the Jedi can now "divulge" them. He "died" to get free, dooku walked out. Who's the more "secret"? No one on the council suspects. Think to one of the last scenes, where mace and yoda assure obiwan that dooku was telling him lies. What was THAT supposed to mean?? They are ignorant and dismissive of something that we believe to be fact, by and large (ps- I don't read anything SW, just the films) WOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 10:05 PM
So Obi Wan just doesn't catch that the Supreme Chancellor used to be Jedi Master Sifo Dyas?

mabudonicus
05-17-2002, 10:24 PM
Sure, it makes sense. Imagine that , maybe , he had surgery, or was a shapeshifter or some such thing. Then Imagine that his power to cloak his identity is more powerful than the abilities of those trying to discern it, or "penetrate" the cloak... it makes sense, from a certain point of view, especially with the way the clone army somehow served palpys rise to power so well.......

Jedi Clint
05-17-2002, 10:53 PM
So did Senator Palpatine get plastic surgery around the same time as TPM (when Obi Wan remembers that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas died)?

chewie
05-17-2002, 10:57 PM
I seriously don't think that Palpatine used to be a jedi going by the name Sifo-Dyas. I also don't think that George intends on having Sifo-Dyas and Sidious being incredibly coincidental names. I think that Palpatine/Sidious took the name of the dead jedi and made it his own sith form. There's enough time gap before episode I to have this happen if Sifo died before the events of the movie. Perhaps Sifo-Dyas was a victim of Palpatine's that Palps took special interest in. Anyway, it won't be a silly or nonsensical reason for Palpatine to be using a similar name to an apparently real dead jedi.

Wild speculation on my part here.... Could be that Sifo-Dyas was Palpatine's old jedi master before Palps flunked out of jedi academy. Now nobody knows if Palpatine was ever recognized as being force sensitive, but the jedi probably would have found him as they do other potential jedi.

QLD
05-18-2002, 01:08 AM
I had Sifo-Dyas once, man that took forever to get rid......what? Jedi???!! Ummm.....yeah, THAT'S WHAT I MEANT! He is an odd character that guy...*sweats nervously*

JediDan
05-18-2002, 12:06 PM
I think Darth Sidious is Palpatine's alter ego. SO they are the same. And I also think that Palpatine (Sidious) ordered the clones 10 years ago. See it's all so easy. :D Everything is working as planned for Palpatine.

mabudonicus
05-18-2002, 12:16 PM
Yes.... I just realised- what if seefo dais' last act was to play the ultimate jedi mind trick, and mass suggest to the whole coucil that, 1- he never looked like "palpatine", and 2- He died, they buried him, case closed.
He could have planted the false memories at any time. Think total recall, as even the Jedi seemed kind of foggy on the events, IMO.

JediTricks
05-18-2002, 03:59 PM
I'll buy that the name "Sypho Dyas" (yeah, I know, misspelled, but I'm trying to be semi-phoentic) was used by either Dooku or another agent of Sidious/Palpatine to place the order for the clones. I can picture Dooku pretending to be Sypho just to convince the Kaminoans of a noble intent. I can even buy that Dooku is also the one that erased Kamino from the maps of the Jedi library.

I just wish, if this is the case, that Lucas had added a line to make this clear - either in the map scene with Yoda or during Obi-Wan's conversation about the name being used. One stinkin' "Hmm, perhaps another was using his identity to fool them" would have sufficed.

Jedi Clint
05-18-2002, 05:12 PM
In the novel, they made it really clear that Sypho-Deeus (that is how I thought I heard it was pronounced....perhaps we are actually pronouncing it the same way JT) was a former Jedi Master known to Obi Wan, Yoda, and Mace to have died around the time TPM took place. It seems that they cut a lot from the film to keep it around the same length as the other four. The prequel trilogy seems to have much more story to tell than the OT, but it still has approximately the same amount of time to tell it. The implications of the late Jedi Master's involvement remains consistent between text and screen because the the major plot points are still presented in the movie. I definately agree that a little more exposition would have helped the film. Look no further than this topic as proof of that. There is mystery surrounding Sifo-Dyas, but it has nothing to do with his identity.

Jango (under the OWK lie detector) said he was commissioned by Tyrannus. Lama Su said that Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself (once again under the OWK lie detector).

Here is my guess:

A human male (with good manners ;) ), dressed in Jedi robes and brandishing the Republic checkbook, shows up on Kamino claiming to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (I doubt they asked him for ID), and tells them to use Jango Fett as the template for a clone army. He will be back in around ten years when they are ready.

I have no idea who killed Sifo-Dyas or why. I do see there being three distinct possibilities:

1. He could have been wrapped up in the plot with Dooku and Palpatine, and destroyed by one or the other when the deal went sour. He was used by the Sith in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

2. He was killed by one of the 2 previously mentioned Sith specifically for his identity in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

3. He could have been murdered for a completely unrelated reason while on assignment, and it was simply his name that was used by his Sith imposter in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

JediTricks
05-18-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Sypho-Deeus (that is how I thought I heard it was pronounced....perhaps we are actually pronouncing it the same way JT)Yup, "sigh-fo dee-yus" is how I meant it, but that looks silly. ;)

Funny, one of my chief complaints is that the first half of the film is far too much expositive dialogue, yet it's missing this small element and now I'm asking for that. Such is life.

Lman316
05-20-2002, 09:52 AM
This was something I've been thinking about since I've seen the movie and I think that I have a good idea on who did.
It's been a few days since I've seen it, and some dialouge was muffled for me because it was just so LOUD, but here is what I got.... Apparently, there was a Jedi who had authorized the making of this clone army about ten years earlier. But the Jedi that the Kaminos mentioned had died before that (is that correct? I thought I heard Obi-Wan say that). And on top of that, someone deleted Kamino from the archives - Yoda (or perhaps Obi-Wan) says that only a Jedi could delete such information.
So, who do you think could have done that? If someone asked me, I would give the answer of Qui-Gon Jinn (if it really is, and someone knows this, please don't confirm it. If it isn't, please don't confirm that either, lol - I'm just speculating here :D).
The reason I made this connection was because of what Dooku had said to Obi-Wan. That Qui-Gon knew of the corruption in the senate and he would not have stood for how bad it had gotten.
I don't know. I could be completely wrong, but if it was Qui-Gon, it might somehow tie into why he didn't disappear in The Phantom Menace (and if someone knows why he doesn't disappear and it's related to Episode 3, please don't relay that info here, lol).
Thoughts?

stillakid
05-20-2002, 09:58 AM
I'm working on this problem too. There was a name that kept popping up that I can't remember, but they made a big deal out of the guy and it being 10 years previous. That would put it right at the time of TPM as I understand the timeline. So, who died in The Phantom Menace who would have placed an order for the army? Or is this a tangent piece of information never meant to connect to any of the onscreen dots?

Fixer
05-20-2002, 10:25 AM
I think Dooku did both (placed the order and deleted Kamino from the database). He left the Jedi order 10 years ago (just after TPM), at the same time Sifo-Dyas died. My guess - Dooku was responsible for Sifo-Dyas' death, deleted Kamino from the archives, then under the assumed name, placed the clone army order. He then started the seperatist movement. Busy guy.

Lman316
05-20-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Fixer
I think Dooku did both (placed the order and deleted Kamino from the database). He left the Jedi order 10 years ago (just after TPM), at the same time Sifo-Dyas died. My guess - Dooku was responsible for Sifo-Dyas' death, deleted Kamino from the archives, then under the assumed name, placed the clone army order. He then started the seperatist movement. Busy guy.

Not to say you're wrong (and I'm not saying that, so please don't yell at me :cry: ), because like I said, I really don't know. But if it was Dooku, wouldn't that have made him part of the Dark Side back then? And with current Sith rules in place of there being only two, it might not have happened. Because there was already Maul and Sidious.
But it is something to think about.

Lord Tenebrous
05-20-2002, 11:16 AM
Well, there's always the remote possibility that Dooku and Qui-Gon were both behind it.


But I guess we'll have to wait and see.... :)

The Overlord Returns
05-20-2002, 11:30 AM
I'd say it's more likely that Palpatine/ Sidious was behind the clone order. However, it is entirely possible that Dooku was leaning toward the dark side before actually leaving the order. He could have been in league with sidious shortly after Mauls death. Before leaving the order, he would be able to delete Kamino, and have the order placed under a dead jedis name.

Kamino seems to keep itself at a distance from the republic, sort of like a star wars switzerland.

2-1B
05-20-2002, 12:11 PM
I vote Dooku. :)

As Tyrannus, he recruited Jango for the job, so he had knowledge of what was going on. He probably left the Jedi Order after Qui-Gon's death and passed himself off as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans.

Jedi Clint
05-20-2002, 12:19 PM
It was most likely Dooku. The exact time the order was placed is never given, nor is Sifo-Dyas date of expiration. Both events happened around the time TPM took place. It could have been before, after, or during for all we know.

saladin
05-20-2002, 02:51 PM
i think sifo was sidiouses master, sid killed him and because he had maul in the wings and befoir that sifo placed order for the clones. Plalp was in the senayte for a while he wasn't brand new. he then went along and tricked every in saying ys to him being supreme chancelor and the clone atrmy.

bobafett07728
05-20-2002, 03:21 PM
I am pretty confident that Dooku placed the order for the clones, and told them his name was Sifo-Dyas. The Kaminos took it as the truth, because of the large amount of money, and believed that a Jedi Master called Syfo-Dyas placed the order. This would explain why Jango was recruited by Tyrannus, and not someone called Syfo-Dyas. Also, the Kaminos aren't really on top of things as far as identities go. They knew Obi-Wan is a Jedi by his wardrobe, but that is all they know about him. Obi could have said he was Master Jedi Bob Barker, and Lama Su would have been like. . ."Oh. . .nice to meet you Master Jedi. . ." and the movie would have went on uninterrupted. As long as they are getting paid, and the person looks like a Jedi, the Kaminos could care less. The whole army is created so that when Palpatine/Sidiuos gains power he has a grand army, and can dispose of the Jedi. Anyway. . .that's just my two nickels.

aikman
05-20-2002, 03:32 PM
This is it
sidious/sifodias , remember this is just from memory from 10 years ago, names are close, its sidious all right
RE:
Sidious and Master Sifo-Dyas sound pretty close? The same person

Jedi Clint
05-20-2002, 03:34 PM
Nope.....not the same person. I've presented evidence to support that statement in this topic. Give it a read.

aikman
05-20-2002, 03:38 PM
Sifo dias was a jedi that supposedly died 10 years ago, or, how about this:
Sifo dias was a jedi, faked his death 10 years ago , turned into darth Sidious

Jedi Clint
05-20-2002, 04:02 PM
If that were true aikman then why don't Obi Wan, Mace, or Yoda realize that their Chancellor is also former Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? They all knew who he was. The answer is that the mystery surrounding his involvement in the clone's creation has nothing to do with who Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas really was. It has to do with who passed themself off as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans. If Darth Tyrannus/ Count Dooku hired Jango to be the template for them, then it is probable that he is the one who assumed his former Jedi associate's identity to order the clones.

RooJay
05-20-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
1. He could have been wrapped up in the plot with Dooku and Palpatine, and destroyed by one or the other when the deal went sour. He was used by the Sith in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

2. He was killed by one of the 2 previously mentioned Sith specifically for his identity in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

3. He could have been murdered for a completely unrelated reason while on assignment, and it was simply his name that was used by his Sith imposter in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.
Either (or all) of these is probably true.

Sidious and Palpatine ARE the same person. No matter what philosophy you subscribe to, either they are one person or two separate clones of the SAME person, they are in fact the same guy.

Sidious and Dooku were obviously in league with each other around the time of TPM; either before, during, or after. Just because he might not yet have been a Sith (Sidious and Maul having been the two) doesn't mean Palpatine couldn't have been working with him.Sidious had Dooku delete all record of Kamino from the archives before Dooku left the Jedi order.

Dooku, using his Sith monniker Tyranus hired Jango Fett (which Jango tells Obi Wan in the movie) under the order of Darth Sidious, whom we KNOW personally picked Fett (which is exactly what he told Lama Su).

Sidious, either using the name Sifo-Dyas or using the actual Jedi named Sifo-Dyas as a patsy placed the order for the clone army.

Whether Sidious has had everything planned out or just FORESAW some of it, it's all part of the plan now (By the way, I'm pretty certain he says that all is going according to his PLAN in the movie). He very OBVIOUSLY planned on creating a clone army, planned on using Dooku to help him do so, and planned to make it look like the Jedi were responsible for it's creation.

I'm also fairly certain that the creation of the clone army will lead to Civil war between the Republic and the Separatists, which is exactly what is happening in the film. The Republic will be fighting the Clone War against the armies of the Separatists.

sith_killer_99
05-20-2002, 07:05 PM
Actually, Tyranus placed the order for the clones, he told them it was for Sidious, and the Kaminoans (having bad hearing) thought he said Sifo-Dias.

hehehe

sith_killer_99
05-20-2002, 07:59 PM
But seriously, a few FACTS.

Darth Sidious=Emperor Palpatine. Was NOT trained as a Jedi. Manages to conceal his Dark-side nature from the Jedi, EVEN Yoda.

Darth Tyranus=Count Dooku. Former Jedi Master, Yoda's old apprentice, Qui-Gon's old Master.

Sifo-Dyas=LEADING member of the Jedi Council. Died 10 years ago, BEFORE the order for the clones was placed. Was well known by Yoda and Mace.

My theory is this:

Dooku recruited Jango, and placed the order for the clones, under the name Sifo-Dyas.

Palpatine/Sidious used the Trade situation to set-up the Seperatist movement and made Count Dooku the figure head. Having a former Jedi Master lends credit to the cause. He then gets Dooku to stir up animosity on one side while secretly creating a Clone Army for the Republic. He uses the situation to get Emergency Powers.

By initiating a War he was able to gather more power for himself. This will eventually lead to his becoming Emperor.

Also, I believe that we will eventually see the Seperatist Movement transformed into the Rebel Alliance.
I also believe that clones will be banned after the clone wars. Here's how and why. Kamino will be destroyed in the war. All future attempts will turn out badly. In the Zahn novels (yeah, yeah, I know....It's NOT cannon. blah blah blah) cloning WAS banned. We see that cloning techniques result in UNSTABLE (insane) individuals. There were some successes but NEVER to the level achieved on Kamino. For this, and other reasons, I believe that cloning will be banned in the movies as well as the novels.

Dryanta
05-20-2002, 08:22 PM
Hey all,
Here's my attempt at explaining my ideas on this.Be patient i'll try to make it clear.
I think Syfo-Dyas is a red hering.At least on the SIdeous thing.IMO Palpatine and Sideous are the same person.No clones or anything same guy.
Now I take myself back to EP1 real quick.Obi wan said to Qui Gon"Don't defy the councel,not again"hmmm.To me this seems like a line that may be more than just establishing a history of rebellion.What defience?
Now I jump a head to ep2. Why is the time frame of the order placement so important to Yoda and Mace?
The force is out of balance.Not only because of the unequal ratio between jedi and sith but because the Jedi counsel has become as bad as the senate.
If what Dooku told Obi WAn is true about Qui Gon,who's to say he wasn't already active with Syfo Dyas in some kind of difience and covert action against the Jedi counsel?If they believed they were corupted by something they could have easily banded together.Of course being used by Sideous.Maul destroys the connection in killing Qui Gon.Syfo Dyas is disposed off somehow.
I hope I'm making some kind of sense here.If Syfo dyas and Qui Gon were under some either some heavy discontentment with the counsel or deception could have easily ordered the clones and erased the map of Kamino.Maybe they thought the army would be needed to over throw a corrupt Jedi counsel.Not the republic itself.
Now if I'm understanding this right,Jedi take on padawans when they are children.Dooku was Qui Gon's master.Now how about this,Dooku is actually under cover in a personal attempt to root out the sith and avenge the death and deception of his "son"?
He definately seemed pained with putting Obi WAn and Anakin down.And did not deal fatal blows to either.When I think it would have been very easy for him to do so.Not with Yoda mind you but with the other two definately.I don't think Dooku is the second sith."There can only be two" IMO Anakin is the apprentice sith and has been since Maul died.After seeing ep2 we can all see he has been groomed and "trained" per say by Palpatine since EP1.So if there are only two Dooku either has an apprentice or is not what he seems to be.
I think Dooku is under cover,Anakin is the second sith,Syfo dyas was a real separtist jedi along with Qui Gon,and they started the whole thing,strings on all being pulled by Sideous,Who BTW is one and the same as Palpatine.
Make any sense at all?

aikman
05-20-2002, 08:51 PM
Well, in 10 years a lot of things can change (appearance/disguises).
The problem is we dont know how he supposedly died.
They said it was a jedi that did it so that either implies

A)Dooku ordered it while he was a jedi(and thus was in concert w/ the sith)
B)Sidious(possible DYAS alter ego)
C)Qui gon(was a troublemaking padawan of Dookus)
D)Maul(was a jedi and working for sidious at the time)

Im sure the emperor is sidious, although I sure am troubled by Tyranus having the force lighting. Emperor palpatine was the only one we have seen with it so far...

re:
If that were true aikman then why don't Obi Wan, Mace, or Yoda realize that their Chancellor is also former Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? They all knew who he was. The answer is that the mystery surrounding his involvement in the clone's creation has nothing to do with who Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas really was. It has to do with who passed themself off as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans. If Darth Tyrannus/ Count Dooku hired Jango to be the template for them, then it is probable that he is the one who assumed his former Jedi associate's identity to order the clones

aikman
05-20-2002, 09:03 PM
Sure my theories are out there but we need to try to go on what facts we know...which isnt much
1.A jedi Sifo Dyas placed the order 10+ years ago
2.Sifo Dyas led the jedi council 10+ years ago
3.Yoda and Mace knew Sifo Dyas
4.Sifo Dyas supposedly died 10+ years ago somehow
5.Dooku was a jedi but isnt anymore (why/how is not known)

Jedi Clint
05-20-2002, 09:25 PM
A) You got it! Dooku is the prime suspect.
B) There isn't any way that Palpatine/Sidious was a former Jedi Master known to Obi, Yoda, and Mace. Did he go to Kamino in Jedi garb and order clones under the deceased Jedi Master's identity? Hmmmm.
C) Qui Gon posed as Sifo Dyas? Hmmmm again.
D) Maul posed as Sifo Dyas? Hmmmmm one more time.


I'm not quite sure where you are going with this:

"Well, in 10 years a lot of things can change (appearance/disguises). "

Palpatine would have had to under went serious reconstructive plastic surgery prior to our seeing him in TPM in order to be Sifo-Dyas. Did he get reconstuctive surgery when "Sifo-Dyas" died (according to Obi Wan, Mace, and Yoda)? If so that is about the same time he took the Chancellor seat or shortly before it. It just doesn't work. Sifo Dyas was a Jedi Master known to Mace, Yoda, and Obi Wan. He was not Palpatine/Sidious. That guy has enough alter-egos. ;)

DarthBrandon
05-20-2002, 11:05 PM
Too confusing for me to even attempt to speculate anything.
Good luck trying to figure it out, I'll wait till Episode III.

Amanamike
05-21-2002, 12:34 AM
heres something esle to throw nto the loop.... Yoda sensed the dark side in Dooku, but never sensed it in Palpatine. Why??? How can he sense one but not the other??? hmmm. I also think Dooku is not a sith but a user of the dark force. He usually goes by Count not Darth. Maybe Sidious has him thinking he is a sith but he is more a pawn. And my other question is how come Obi Wan didnt put 2 ands 2 together when he sees that Jango is the person they use to make the clonnes, yet he helps dooku who is in charge of making the droid army??? Whats up with that?? These 2 forces were supposed to combat each other yet Jango was on both sides of the fence. Im looking at Mace to be the bad *** in all of this. he had to kill Jango to keep the investigation off him. He also knew that Jango played both sides of the fence too Im sure.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
If that were true aikman then why don't Obi Wan, Mace, or Yoda realize that their Chancellor is also former Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas? They all knew who he was. The answer is that the mystery surrounding his involvement in the clone's creation has nothing to do with who Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas really was. It has to do with who passed themself off as Sifo-Dyas to the Kaminoans. If Darth Tyrannus/ Count Dooku hired Jango to be the template for them, then it is probable that he is the one who assumed his former Jedi associate's identity to order the clones.

I think you're on the right track. I say it that way because there's no way to know for sure yet.

In any case, what nobody has come right out and said yet (as far as I can tell) is that Palpatine/The Emperor/Sidious (c'mon, it's not that big of a mystery) is/was a Jedi or at the very least had Jedi powers.

Whatever the mechanics of the situation, Palpatine "fell" to the dark side without anyone noticing and installed himself into the government. Presumably, as Darth Maul's case illustrates, a Sith doesn't need to be part of the Jedi order first.

So, let's assume that pre-TPM sometime, a lone Sith is searching for an apprentice and happens upon Palpatine. He is corrupted and realizes that the Jedi are too engrained in the Republic government to overcome simply. It will take corruption from the inside out to reestablish Sith control over the Force and the Galaxy.

He finds a peaceful system, out of the way, to enter into the government. It's basically off the map, so he won't be noticed. This is where the Prelude to the Star Wars novelization picks it up. He "causes himself to be elected" head of the Republic and declares himself Emperor.

Now, in that process somewhere, his original Master dies somehow at sometime. This is where he recruits Darth Maul.

Now, depending upon when Palpatine's Master died, there are two distinct possibilities:

1) Palpatine's Master was named Sypho-Deeus and he was involved with the plan from the start but died of some unknown (to us) cause before it was completed, or

2) the more likely scenario, Sypho-Deeus is the "bad" pronunciation by aliens of Sideous, which Palpatine would have called himself to them.

Oh, and Dooka? He is simply a temporary Sith replacement for Maul until Palpatine can "recruit" Skywalker. Palpatine, being the master manipulator, exploits Dooka's gullibility and other skills for his own advantage at this point in his game. Nothing more. Nothing less.

2-1B
05-21-2002, 01:29 AM
Amanamike, re: "sensing" Dooku and Palpatine -
Yoda claims the Dark Side is hard to see, and that's clear in the fact that Palpatine takes control under their watch. But Dooku is actively using the Dark Side in the encounter with Ani/Obi/Yoda . . . that's a plausible explanation, huh? :D

Hmm, as for the Jango thing . . .
Well, Jango said he "was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of Bogden." We as the audience know Tyrannus is Dooku, but it does still seem that Obi-Wan should have made the connection since Fett was in Poggle's booth during the execution scene. Obi-Wan could assume Jango is there on a different bounty, but that's pure imagination on my part.

Jedi Clint
05-21-2002, 02:19 AM
Stillakid,

I don't know how much of this topic you've read. In the post you quoted, I was simply entertaining other ideas about who Syph-Deeus was. It appears to be impossible for Sifo-Dyas to be anyone that the audience has already been introduced to.

There is mystery surrounding Sifo-Dyas, but it has nothing to do with his identity.

Jango said he was commissioned by Tyrannus. Obi Wan Kenobi knew Master Sifo-Dyas and that he died about 10 years ago.


Here is my guess:

A human male (with good manners ), dressed in Jedi robes and brandishing the Republic checkbook, shows up on Kamino claiming to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (I doubt they asked him for ID), and tells them to use Jango Fett as the template for a clone army. He will be back in around ten years when they are ready.

I have no idea who killed Sifo-Dyas or why. I do see there being three distinct possibilities:

1. He could have been wrapped up in the plot with Dooku and Palpatine, and destroyed by one or the other when the deal went sour. He was used by the Sith in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

2. He was killed by one of the 2 previously mentioned Sith specifically for his identity in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

3. He could have been murdered for a completely unrelated reason while on assignment, and it was simply his name that was used by his Sith imposter in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.


This comes from the AOTC novel.

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"

good shot jansen
05-21-2002, 07:30 AM
the things that keep bugging me are lines like;


"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"


under the impression? that's about as wishy-washy a line as you will find anywhere. da heck does under the impression mean anyway. either he was killed almost 10 years ago (another wishy washy estimate of time there), or he wasn't. a jedi master is not some annonymous back room employee. the death of someone as prominent as a jedi master, should be revered and remembered in better terms than "i was under the impression". and definately in more exact terms than "i was under the impression that he died before almost 10 years ago":rolleyes:

prior to this obi-wan says;

Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death

if he knows his death was untimely (again, da heck does that mean?), then he should know when sifo-dyas died, not "under the impression", particularly since he was "killed", it's not like he untimely died of high cholesterol, he was killed, and the killing of a jedi i'm assuming is not a common place occurance.

earlier in this thread i had posted something to the effect of sideous/palpatine possibly being a changeling (ala zam wessel), this is a new type of alien, introduced to us in aotc. that's the only reason i tossed out the possibility of the sideous/sifo-dyas connection. any discussion about surgery and the like is nonsence i agree, but a changeling? that adds a whole new dimension to the art of deception and disguise :eek:

george definately has something under his sleeves, and will indeed drop a huge bomb along the lines of vader being lukes father in episode III. what it might be is tough to see.......the dark side is.............

stillakid
05-21-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Stillakid,

I don't know how much of this topic you've read. In the post you quoted, I was simply entertaining other ideas about who Syph-Deeus was. It appears to be impossible for Sifo-Dyas to be anyone that the audience has already been introduced to.

There is mystery surrounding Sifo-Dyas, but it has nothing to do with his identity.

Jango said he was commissioned by Tyrannus. Obi Wan Kenobi knew Master Sifo-Dyas and that he died about 10 years ago.


Here is my guess:

A human male (with good manners ), dressed in Jedi robes and brandishing the Republic checkbook, shows up on Kamino claiming to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas (I doubt they asked him for ID), and tells them to use Jango Fett as the template for a clone army. He will be back in around ten years when they are ready.

I have no idea who killed Sifo-Dyas or why. I do see there being three distinct possibilities:

1. He could have been wrapped up in the plot with Dooku and Palpatine, and destroyed by one or the other when the deal went sour. He was used by the Sith in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

2. He was killed by one of the 2 previously mentioned Sith specifically for his identity in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.

3. He could have been murdered for a completely unrelated reason while on assignment, and it was simply his name that was used by his Sith imposter in order to frame the Jedi for initiating the creation of the clone army.


This comes from the AOTC novel.

"The name, known to Obi Wan as that of a former Jedi Master,"
"If it was indeed Sifo-Dyas that commissioned an army of clones, then why hadn't Master Yoda or any of the others said anything about it?" Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death, but would he have acted alone on an issue as important as this?"
"The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started 10 years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they are mature and quite ready for duty."
"A bounty hunter named Jagno Fett," Lama Su offered without any hesitation. "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas hand picked Jango himself."
"Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us Jedi could only lead an army of life-forms."
"He took a deep breath, wondering how Sifo-Dyas, how any Jedi, could have so willingly and unilaterly crossed the line to create any army of clones."
"Sifo-Dyas. Isn't he the one who hired you for this job?"
"Never heard of him," Jango replied, and if there was a lie in his words, Obi Wan could not detect it.
"I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."
"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"
"No", Mace answered without hesitation, and without even looking to Yoda for confirmation. "Whoever placed that order did not have the permission of the Jedi Council."
"A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. Why would Sifo-Dyas........"
"When placed this order was, may provide insight,"


Yeah, I read that, but I don't see the problem in my theory based on the above. What am I not seeing? It seems HIGHLY unlikely that Lucas would (if he has any story sense at all) introduce a brand new major character in the Third Act of the Prequels. So Sypho Dyas almost certainly has to be somebody major who is already established.



Originally posted by good shot jansen
the things that keep bugging me are lines like;


"Yes Master, they say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"


under the impression? that's about as wishy-washy a line as you will find anywhere. da heck does under the impression mean anyway. either he was killed almost 10 years ago (another wishy washy estimate of time there), or he wasn't. a jedi master is not some annonymous back room employee. the death of someone as prominent as a jedi master, should be revered and remembered in better terms than "i was under the impression". and definately in more exact terms than "i was under the impression that he died before almost 10 years ago":rolleyes:

prior to this obi-wan says;

Sifo-Dyas had been a powerful Jedi before his untimely death

if he knows his death was untimely (again, da heck does that mean?), then he should know when sifo-dyas died, not "under the impression", particularly since he was "killed", it's not like he untimely died of high cholesterol, he was killed, and the killing of a jedi i'm assuming is not a common place occurance.

earlier in this thread i had posted something to the effect of sideous/palpatine possibly being a changeling (ala zam wessel), this is a new type of alien, introduced to us in aotc. that's the only reason i tossed out the possibility of the sideous/sifo-dyas connection. any discussion about surgery and the like is nonsence i agree, but a changeling? that adds a whole new dimension to the art of deception and disguise :eek:

george definately has something under his sleeves, and will indeed drop a huge bomb along the lines of vader being lukes father in episode III. what it might be is tough to see.......the dark side is.............


And it is precisely for the above reasons that there is a problem in figuring this out. The "timeline" places the order at exactly the period of The Phantom Menace. As GSJ points out, it seems unlikely that a Jedi Master's death would be so insignificant. Perhaps to Padawan Obi Wan, but when Yoda heard the name, you'd expect him to recognize it and begin an investigation or something. But nobody jumps at the information in any way which is the problem.

It makes no sense whatsoever, unless Sypho Dyas wasn't a true Jedi at all, but rather a Sith. Following the logical path of information that we already know, Palpatine (who is Sidious for certain) has Force powers that the Jedi doesn't know about.

Knowing that, he either practices Force stuff as a hobby or he is a Sith.

Knowing that he "becomes" the Emperor that we all are familiar with, we can surmise that he is a Sith.

So, jump back ten years and the only two Sith are Sidious and Maul. Chances are, the Kamino's wouldn't mistake Obi Wan for Maul, so a more human looking figure would have visited Kamino to place the order for clones. Sidious/Palpatine.

Knowing what we know about his expert political manuevering, it is likely that he would have put his galactic plan into motion years earlier, perhaps with the help of his own Master.

Unless GL pulls a brand new character out of the woodwork in Ep III, there is little doubt that Sifo Dyas is Sidious just the way Louis Cypher was, well, I don't need to spell that one out. :)

Jedi Clint
05-21-2002, 11:46 AM
I am not suggesting that he will pull a new character out in E3.....he did it in AOTC. If it were a fake Jedi that placed the order for the clones....then they aren't implicated in secretly bypassing the senate on the hotly debated issue of creating a clone army. There is distrust being set up between the Jedi and the Senate. If Sifo-Dyas weren't a real Jedi, then they have a great excuse.....they were being framed. This way, yes they are being framed, but they have no excuse.

How do we know that they didn't instantly start an investigation into their former Jedi's involvement in this mess?

Where does the information that Jedi don't have untimely death's very often come from? There is always a possibility that they will get wasted when they go out on a mission. Obi Wan is a Master Jedi, and he nearly got wasted on his mission to Kamino.

Palpatine may have posed as Sifo-Dyas in a trip to Kamino 10 years prior, but it wasn't his alter ego. I doubt the character will ever be mentioned in E3.

The Kaminoans do not mispronounce anything else I heard them say. Did Obi Wan sound wishy washy when he told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas died? Was it ever mentioned "There is no Jedi by that name."?

The Jedi are being framed for starting the clone wars, which will devastate the galaxy. One of their own placed the order for the clones, and they made the first strike against the opposition led by a former Jedi.

bobafett07728
05-21-2002, 12:17 PM
I agree with JediClint. There will be no new character introduced. Syfo-Dyas is just a name. . .no more. . .no less. It was the name of the fallen Jedi Master that someone (IMO Dooku, but possibly Sidious) used to place the order for the clones. We don't need to know about Syfo-Dyas because HE didn't have anything to do with the order, or the Dark Side. He died before it all, and his name was used as a disguise. Maybe some comics, or other EU, will go into the Jedi Master Syfo-Dyas story, but otherwise, I don't think his story is necessary in the current trilogy. His name was used. . .and that is all we need to know about him.

mabudonicus
05-21-2002, 12:23 PM
Gotta agree with GooD Shot. "under the impression". In one of my earlier posts in this thread, I mentioned that the Jedi were EXTREMELY vague about any details surrounding "seefodayous". Saying "under the impression" seems to suggest an obvious lack of memory, shared by even the most powerful Jedi. Notice how no-one thought to look up any back story on "seefo", just to get the dates straight?? Seems to me, anyways, like someone made it so they
1- just don't really recall any details at all concerning what exactly happened in that time frame (10 yrs ago)
2- can't even effectively THINK about such things.
Could this 2 points indicate some kind of "force hypnosis", or suggestion of some kind?? I think the bomb will be that , in some kind of flash back sequence, obi wan will realize that he knew palpy all along, and he'd just been made to forget.............

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint

The Jedi are being framed for starting the clone wars, which will devastate the galaxy. One of their own placed the order for the clones, and they made the first strike against the opposition led by a former Jedi.


That's the question, isn't it? Who was the "Jedi" that did it? If it was a Jedi at all. Unless this is another example of George's less than adequate storytelling style, I base my ideas on the reasoning that this Sipho Dyas isn't just a throwaway character device that will never come up again.

Also that such a major player wouldn't appear so late in the game. But even if you believe that he would, it still wouldn't make sense in light of the idea that there are only two Sith at a time (assuming that a true Jedi wouldn't betray the Republic like that without becoming a Sith himself, which leads right back into what I'm getting at).

So, if it's one of the Sith and it was 10 years ago, then the most likely candidates for placing the order are Sidious, Maul, or Sidious's master (if it was pre-TPM), or Dooka (if post TPM).

However, it couldn't have been Dooka, as he clearly isn't dead and Obi Wan was "under the impression" that Dyas had died. Obi verbalizing that assumption leads us to believe that the name, Dyas, was well-enough known even for a Padawan to recognize, but somehow, and seemingly conflicting, not well enough known for Yoda to know instantly who this Dyas was and the supposed nature of his death.

There seems to be conflicting information happening which is making this mystery difficult to unravel.

2-1B
05-21-2002, 12:38 PM
There are thousands of Jedi. They don't all know each other personally, so when Obi-Wan says he was under the impression he was killed a decade ago it's probably because he didn't know Sifo-Dyas personally. He likely never even talked to the man.

Remember that Qui-Gon died around the same time. If his former master Count Dooku left the order in anger and joined with Sideous, he was most likely the man who ordered the clones.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
There are thousands of Jedi. They don't all know each other personally, so when Obi-Wan says he was under the impression he was killed a decade ago it's probably because he didn't know Sifo-Dyas personally. He likely never even talked to the man.

Remember that Qui-Gon died around the same time. If his former master Count Dooku left the order in anger and joined with Sideous, he was most likely the man who ordered the clones.


I may be incorrect, but isn't it logical to assume that the Jedi Council would know the names of all of the Jedi and what happened to them? They don't just leave or die without notice. It's that seeming lack of knowledge by Yoda or anyone else in power about this guy that creates the problems. Remember, these guys are chock full o' Midichlorians, superhuman, so we are led to believe that they have powers beyond mere mortals such as ourselves. Simply forgetting about a Jedi and his fate seems to be an unlikely turn of events for beings as powerful as those that sit on the Council.

Jedi Clint
05-21-2002, 12:44 PM
Do the Kaminoans know (or give a hoot) who the robed Jedi really is? Obviously not. The only reason we know the name Sifo-Dyas is implicated in this mystery at all is because the Kaminoans told Obi Wan that the former Jedi Master ordered the clones. Of course Obi Wan knows Dooku isn't dead.......he knew Sifo-Dyas was though. The reason he says "under the impression" is because he is getting conflicting information from the Kaminoans.

Jango told Obi Wan that he was recruited for the job by Dooku/Tyranus. Dooku was obviously part of the plot from it's conception. He supplied the template.

How do we know that Yoda didn't recognize the name Sifo-Dyas? Just because he didn't jump up and down and shout "I know him!
I know him!"? Where are you getting this idea that the higher ups don't know who he was?

The lack of detail surrounding this part of the plot ties directly into the mystery of the Sith which was started in TPM, continues through AOTC, and comes to light in E3.

2-1B
05-21-2002, 12:50 PM
stillakid,
I was talking about Obi-Wan, who is not on the Council. He's busy running around with his padawan solving border disputes and other problems.

Sure, the Council should know Sifo-Dyas, and I don't get the impression from AOTC that they fail to recognize the name. Their general indifference to the name suggests to me that his death was not mysterious; the real mystery is why an order was placed in his name.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Do the Kaminoans know (or give a hoot) who the robed Jedi really is? Obviously not. The only reason we know the name Sifo-Dyas is implicated in this mystery at all is because the Kaminoans told Obi Wan that the former Jedi Master ordered the clones. Of course Obi Wan knows Dooku isn't dead.......he knew Sifo-Dyas was though. The reason he says "under the impression" is because he is getting conflicting information from the Kaminoans.

Jango told Obi Wan that he was recruited for the job by Dooku/Tyranus. Dooku was obviously part of the plot from it's conception. He supplied the template.

How do we know that Yoda didn't recognize the name Sifo-Dyas? Just because he didn't jump up and down and shout "I know him!
I know him!"?

The lack of detail surrounding this part of the plot ties directly into the mystery of the Sith which was started in TPM, continues through AOTC, and comes to light in E3.


Ok, so let's assume that Dooka arrives on Kamino and greets the aliens. Let's also assume that it was he who deleted the records from the archive. What motivation would Dooka have for giving the Kamino's a false name? He's already hid the system from view, so he (he thinks so anyway) is safe from discovery while the plot is hatching. The only one with true motivation for identity deception is Palpatine who obviously also uses Sidious for his closest friends. Would he use a third psuedonym? That also doesn't seem so likely, but it is still more believable that Palpatine would hide his identity to the Kamino's than Dooka would.

And just because Fett was recruited by Tyrannus, doesn't automatically mean that it was Dooka who placed the order. The plan could have easily been conceived pre-Dooka just as easily as during his time with Sidious.

Plus, yes, it does matter that Yoda didn't react to the name. It's a pivotal reaction that didn't happen...unless it's Yoda who is part of the plot. But, because of what we know about him in the OT, that seems highly unlikely.

But then again, the Jedi give the audience the impression that Dyas was a known character and that he did, at least, appear to have died ten years previous. That would explain Yoda's lack of reaction, as he would naturally concur that the guy did indeed die.

So if this Dyas was a real and separate person and not a psuedonym of Palpatine, Maul, Dooka, or anyone else alive in AOTC, then it had to be Palpatine's own Master, who would have been alive just prior to TPM before Palpatine had to recruit a new Sith (Maul).

Keep in mind, this plot to overthrow the Republic was already in motion by the time we joined the story in TPM so the pieces of the puzzle to make it happen would have been concocted years earlier by Palpatine (a younger man at the time) and someone else...

...his master. The details of who that guy could have been are pure conjecture, but conceivably he was a known Jedi by the name of Dyas who everyone would be familiar with but not special enough to take extra notice of. He would have worked in the background, plotting to overthrow the Jedi and take control of the Republic.

He recruits Palpatine at some point and seeing the big picture, knows that he probably won't live long enough to see the plan through to it's conclusion. Before dying, he heads to Kamino to place the order for clones. Whatever the case, he dies somehow. It doesn't appear to matter how at this point.

This leaves Palpatine holding the bag. He recruits Maul and we pick up the story with TPM. Maul dies unexpectedly and Palpatine realizes the need for political brains more than muscle, so he recruits Dooka.

The Kamino plan was in place but the host hadn't been chosen yet. Palpatine somehow comes up with this Fett guy and orders Dooka to contact him and make a deal. We pick up the story with AOTC.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:11 PM
This reminds me of playing CLUE when we were younger. (Maul did it in the study with a double-bladed lightsaber)

(on second thought, what a great idea for a spinoff Star Wars game, like they did for Monopoly!)

Jedi Clint
05-21-2002, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
This reminds me of playing CLUE when we were younger. (Maul did it in the study with a double-bladed lightsaber)

(on second thought, what a great idea for a spinoff Star Wars game, like they did for Monopoly!)

It was actually Colonel Mustard in the Senate with the tidlywinks! :p

I mentioned earlier that I believe Dooku used the dead Jedi's name to frame the Jedi for instigating the clone wars.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint


It was actually Colonel Mustard in the Senate with the tidlywinks! :p

I mentioned earlier that I believe Dooku used the dead Jedi's name to frame the Jedi for instigating the clone wars.


While that is entirely plausible (the Dooka thing, not the Tidlywinks...but then again, maybe that too), it would be a far stronger story if the Dyas name wasn't just a random dead guy that Palpatine dug up. Seeing as how Lucas likes to connect the dots (Leia is the sister, Fett has a history, etc), I'd like to believe that this Dyas character had a deliberate hand in what was going on under the authority of his name (whether it was a psuedonym or not). With that in mind, all roads lead back to Palpatine's own master, who was (had to be) a known Jedi and died ten years ago (or so, before Maul*). Unless Lucas isn't connecting the dots and the name is just random for the sake of framing the Jedi, this seems to be the only solution to who this Dyas is.



*This just occurred to me. Following the mythology of the Sith that Lucas has explained, there are only two Sith at any given moment because of the nature of their arrogance, greed, etc. Their own shortcomings determine that there can only be two at a time, a master and an apprentice. Once the apprentice becomes strong enough (and arrogant enough), the natural course of action for Sith is to take over by destroying the Master. Palpatine would have reached this point sometime and made the move to take over. One of two things must have happened: 1) he killed his master himself and then recruited an apprentice, Maul, or 2) Palpatine recruited Maul and as part of his training, had Maul kill Palpatine's Master, Dyas. This would jive with Maul's presence in the TPM and support his discussion with Palpatine on Coruscant. "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi." This sounds an awful lot like a relatively new recruit anxious to push the plans forward (sounds like Anakin, doesn't it? :) )

No goofy flashback sequences will explain this, but there may be some kind of Holo recording or something that could be used as an information-giving story element for Ep III.

aikman
05-21-2002, 02:08 PM
Ok
Palpatine placed the order 10 + years ago in the name of a jedi he knew was dead (probably killed after he didnt join him)

Palpatine take the same darth sidious as a homage to sifo dias (sounds too close for me)

Puts tyranus in charge of the clone army and keeps his anonymity

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 02:48 PM
i feel that the sith are cool with the fact that they will eventually be overthrown by the younger, hipper darths as long as the way of the dark side continues... that's why at the end of jedi, palpatine and vader are both trying to turn luke against the other, but they aren't fighting each other directly... (until vader does, of course, but that's because he comes out of the darkness and therefore is not working to continue the dark side.) that's why it nearly always takes two jedi to fight one sith. in menace, we see qui-gon and obi-wan against maul, in clones, we see obi-wan and anakin against tyranus, although because of his lack of knowledge and his impetuousness, anakin pooches the whole deal by charging in without obi-wan, and in jedi, we see a newly turned vader and luke against the emperor. any jedi over sith victory always seems to need twice as much jedi as sith. any one on one duel, and someone's losing a hand.

Fixer
05-21-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I'll buy that the name "Sypho Dyas" (yeah, I know, misspelled, but I'm trying to be semi-phoentic) was used by either Dooku or another agent of Sidious/Palpatine to place the order for the clones. I can picture Dooku pretending to be Sypho just to convince the Kaminoans of a noble intent. I can even buy that Dooku is also the one that erased Kamino from the maps of the Jedi library.


That's exactly the supposition I made in another post. However, I'll add that I think Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas specifically to take his name as an alias. Can you say "identity theft?" Probably using Sifo's credit cards and making "976" calls on his phone, too. Those Sith are evil, people!

DarthMaulSithLord
05-21-2002, 07:42 PM
There are two options (1+2) coming and both will result in the same ending, which we will call B for now.

1.
Let's go back 19 years. Sifo-Dyas is a powerful Jedi in the Jedi Council. After some sort of internal conflict (in his mind), Dyas gets corrupted by the Dark Side of the Force.

Explanation:
As we have seen in AOTC, Yoda was tapping into the Dark Side of the Force when he heard Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Vader beathing and felt that Anakin was in agony. Yoda is very strong, old and wise and thus can withstand the seductive powers of the Dark Side.

So Sifo-Dyas does the same almost two decades ago and goes to far. He awakens his worst feelings and becomes a Sith in secret. Or maybe he did it because he could ensure a balance in the Force by doing this? Anyway, he searches for an apprentice and, because he wants to train him as a Dark Jedi, seeks his patron in the outer rim territories. After some searching he stumbles upon Palpatine. Sifo-Dyas corrupts him and trains him in the ways of the Force in secrecy.

Years go by and Palpatine's powers are growing. Sifo is fearing that Palpatine is stronger than he had imagined and expells him from the Jedi Academy. Palpy, enraged by this, returns to Naboo and works his way up the ladder.........

2.
It's 30 years into the past and Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas is the leading member of the Jedi Council and takes on a new apprentice. The apprentice is called Palpatine. Or he had a name change later on. Anyway, Sifo trains him and learns that, while he is growing more and more powerfull, is also getting restless and overconfident. The traits of Jedi on their way to the Dark Side of the Force. Sifo fears that this will lead to a conflict and expells the young Jedi from the Academy. Enraged by this, the young Jedi flees and is engulfed with hatred for the Jedi. He returns/goes to Naboo and plans to get his right and get revenge against Sifo-Dyas for expelling and mistreating him. Sifo-Dyas is worried that his failure will become public and deletes all the info about his young padawan.

He works his way into the Naboo royalties, probably using his new alias, Palpatine.

B
A large number of years (8-10) pass and Palpatine AKA Darth Sidious decides it's time for him to act and takes on an apprentice of it's own. He trains Darth Maul and while he works his way up, plans what he is going to do in the coming decades. maybe seen as the chosen one by Sifo-Dyas, Palpatine sees himself as the person that will bring balance to the Force. At the time of TPM, Sidious/Palpy decides the time is ripe and assassinates Sifo-Dyas with the help of his apprentice. "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will hav revenge". Hmmmm....

After successfully killing Sifo, Sidous sets his plan in motion: He employs the help of the Trade Federation in attempt to stand out to the Republic. Uses Sifo's name and resources to order a clone army and last but not least seduces Count Dooku (possibly with the wrong means) by joining him. He probably knew Darth Maul would fail, but coulden't care less since his goals were already achieved and Dooku was much more of use to him (he was more powerful). So in TPM, Palpatine becomes the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and is almost where he wanted to be. His next goal is to erradicate all of the Jedi. Dooku is busy creating a seperatist movement and Sidious/Palpy uses this to gain power over a huge army. An army that will turn itself against the Republic and wipe out all Jedi. Now in AOTC, we saw that Palpy has gained interest in Anakin Skywalker. "I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi" So, again, Palpy is switching apprentices. Maybe he had known it all along? Maybe he even made Anakin? He could've done it to Shmi and used his Sith powers to make her forget what had happened? Ok, that last thing was a longshot i know.

Hope i made some sense. this was just coming out of my head, so i'll have to think it over myself. Maybe it will hit me in the morning.

:)

jawaboy
05-21-2002, 07:52 PM
Sifo Dyas was actually Darth Sidious' master and he was betrayed and killed by Sidious.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by jawaboy
Sifo Dyas was actually Darth Sidious' master and he was betrayed and killed by Sidious.

That's the way I'm leanin'.

sith_killer_99
05-21-2002, 09:46 PM
Count Dooku and do do (sounds too close to me).

Darth Tyranus and Tyrannosaurus (Rex) (sounds too close to me).

Sidious and Sifo Dyas?

Yoda and Yogurt?

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon?

Han Solo and Ham Sandwich?

Leia and Lay ya?

Amidala and I'm a doll ah?

:crazed:

2-1B
05-22-2002, 02:40 AM
It's my pure speculation that Sidious had no master, but if he did we will not see any reference to it on screen. :)

aikman, regarding the name Darth Sidious - I think it's more a play on the word insidious, just like the other darths of maul, tyranny, and invader. :)

stillakid and Jedi Clint, you're both wrong. It was Professor Plum in the Bedroom with the Candlestick. :D

Jedi Clint
05-22-2002, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
stillakid and Jedi Clint, you're both wrong. It was Professor Plum in the Bedroom with the Candlestick. :D

*snaps fingers* DAMN! ;)

mrmiller
05-22-2002, 02:21 PM
Hows this for an idea- of course its just the way my crazy brain works.

Sifo Dyas was secretly a sith, planning to overtake the republic. His apprentice was Palapatine, who he trained in secret (duh.. he was secretly a sith). He uses his apprentice to infiltrate the senate, at the same time Palapatine gets his own ideas on how to rule the republic. Dyas goes ahead and orders his clone army and erases all information from the Jedi library. Palapitine finds a strong young jedi/padwain, Maul, and then assassinates Dyas and takes on his new apprentice. After mauls untimely death, Palapitine hears of a Jedi (dooku) who has left the council due to his conflicting beliefs. Palapitine then approaches Dooku and recruits him as his apprentice praying on his distrust for the way the republic is run.

This would be sort of in league with the OT in how Vader wanted to take Luke on and overtake the Emperor, or how the Emperor wanted to get Luke right after he had defeated Vader and was vulnerable. Again, just my crazy rant. I just enjoyed the thread so much I had to put my 2 cents in. BTW- it was Miss Scarlet with the rope in the bedroom- too bad it was a tragic bondage accident.

=MATT=

Lman316
05-22-2002, 07:24 PM
I don't know if anyone else made this connection (there was a lot of text in these replies and dagnabit, I'm just too impatient to read it all - although I'm sure there are a lot of good points. Fallen to the Dark Side, I have) but Dooku/Tyranus asked how the Jedi came up with an army so quickly. He asked that right after the clone army arrived, when he was in that "command center" thing, with the hologram of the Death Star.
I do understand that Dooku's ways are all about deception and such, as Master Yoda had mentioned. But, I don't see why he would keep his own allies out of the loop. It might make sense that he would keep the Geonosians out the loop, making chaos and whatnot, but what if he really didn't know about it? If he didn't, then it would have to be someone else entirely, and that's why I'm still sticking with Qui-Gon....for now.

Mandalorian Candidat
05-22-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Lman316
This was something I've been thinking about since I've seen the movie and I think that I have a good idea on who did.
It's been a few days since I've seen it, and some dialouge was muffled for me because it was just so LOUD, but here is what I got.... Apparently, there was a Jedi who had authorized the making of this clone army about ten years earlier. But the Jedi that the Kaminos mentioned had died before that (is that correct? I thought I heard Obi-Wan say that). And on top of that, someone deleted Kamino from the archives - Yoda (or perhaps Obi-Wan) says that only a Jedi could delete such information.
So, who do you think could have done that? If someone asked me, I would give the answer of Qui-Gon Jinn (if it really is, and someone knows this, please don't confirm it. If it isn't, please don't confirm that either, lol - I'm just speculating here :D).
The reason I made this connection was because of what Dooku had said to Obi-Wan. That Qui-Gon knew of the corruption in the senate and he would not have stood for how bad it had gotten.
I don't know. I could be completely wrong, but if it was Qui-Gon, it might somehow tie into why he didn't disappear in The Phantom Menace (and if someone knows why he doesn't disappear and it's related to Episode 3, please don't relay that info here, lol).
Thoughts?

First off, I'm sorry to be coming into this discussion so late. I've only read about 1/4 of these posts since they all seem to repeat what someone else has said, but I'm surprised so many people haven't thought about Qui-Gon placing the order.

Doesn't it make some sense that he could be this Syphilis Jedi Master guy? He died 10 years before, and hasn't been around since to check up on the army's progress. He's Dooku's old padawan and is sure to have some of the same feelings and opinions as Dooku. Why couldn't he have placed the order, possibly at the behest or suggestion of Dooku, for a future conflict? He was picked by Jedi Council to assist the Naboo in EP1, so it's likely he has a strong desire or aptitude in helping the Republic to stay stable.

I think he could have been in league with Dooku, before Dooku went rogue, without going over totally or even a smidgen to the Dark Side. Dooku acts like he's doing something good for the Republic and recruits his old padawan and confidant to help him while clouding his mind at the same time.

Plus, the Kaminoans could logically have realized that OB1 was a Jedi there to get the army. Doesn't he look somewhat like Qui-Gon by now? Maybe they thought due to his looks that he was the guy who placed the order.

Anyways, I guess we can argue this to death. This was my first impression upon hearing about this unknown Jedi so it's just stuck with me. I don't remember all the details about him from the movie, by my thought was that it could only have been Qui-Gon.

Lman316
05-22-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat


First off, I'm sorry to be coming into this discussion so late. I've only read about 1/4 of these posts since they all seem to repeat what someone else has said, but I'm surprised so many people haven't thought about Qui-Gon placing the order.

I have. I've said it twice :D. And that's who I'll probably stick with until I see Episode 3 and it proves me otherwise :happy:.

derek
05-22-2002, 10:09 PM
i've just read through all the posts concerning this subject, and Lman 316 hit on something i have been thinking:

1: dooku was suprised that the republic was able to amass an army so quickly.

2: jango said he was recruited by a man called tyranus, but does that mean it was dooku who recruited him? i know sideous called dooku tyranus, but is that how the trade federation and others know him as? or if dooku did recruit jango, did dooku know what for?

3. is it possible dooku does not know sideous is palpatine? he pretty much told obi-wan everything about darth sideous. why wouldn't he go ahead and tell him palpatine is the sith lord? since dooku was trying to recruit obi-wan and over throw sideous, it would of been easier to tell him the whole story about palpatine. why didn't he?

4: is it possible dooku had no knowledge of the clone army being created? is dooku being used by sideous like he is using everyone else? i do think sideous had to have a master, and this sypho-dias seems like a likely candidate. if not, how could someone like palpatine become a dark master on his own? wouldn't he need at least some guidance in the ways of the force?

stillakid
05-23-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by derek
i've just read through all the posts concerning this subject, and Lman 316 hit on something i have been thinking:

1: dooku was suprised that the republic was able to amass an army so quickly.

2: jango said he was recruited by a man called tyranus, but does that mean it was dooku who recruited him? i know sideous called dooku tyranus, but is that how the trade federation and others know him as? or if dooku did recruit jango, did dooku know what for?

3. is it possible dooku does not know sideous is palpatine? he pretty much told obi-wan everything about darth sideous. why wouldn't he go ahead and tell him palpatine is the sith lord? since dooku was trying to recruit obi-wan and over throw sideous, it would of been easier to tell him the whole story about palpatine. why didn't he?

4: is it possible dooku had no knowledge of the clone army being created? is dooku being used by sideous like he is using everyone else? i do think sideous had to have a master, and this sypho-dias seems like a likely candidate. if not, how could someone like palpatine become a dark master on his own? wouldn't he need at least some guidance in the ways of the force?


Thank you Derek for laying that out so nicely. We can conjecture that it was Palpatine's master (and it might have been), but it most likely wasn't Qui Gon, Palpatine, Dooka, Mace, or anyone else alive on screen. The variety of dialogue from varying characters doesn't support any of those choices.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by derek
i've just read through all the posts concerning this subject, and Lman 316 hit on something i have been thinking:

1: dooku was suprised that the republic was able to amass an army so quickly.

2: jango said he was recruited by a man called tyranus, but does that mean it was dooku who recruited him? i know sideous called dooku tyranus, but is that how the trade federation and others know him as? or if dooku did recruit jango, did dooku know what for?

3. is it possible dooku does not know sideous is palpatine? he pretty much told obi-wan everything about darth sideous. why wouldn't he go ahead and tell him palpatine is the sith lord? since dooku was trying to recruit obi-wan and over throw sideous, it would of been easier to tell him the whole story about palpatine. why didn't he?

4: is it possible dooku had no knowledge of the clone army being created? is dooku being used by sideous like he is using everyone else? i do think sideous had to have a master, and this sypho-dias seems like a likely candidate. if not, how could someone like palpatine become a dark master on his own? wouldn't he need at least some guidance in the ways of the force?

1. Dooku was ACTING for the benefit of Poggle and Nute. He knew all about the army he and Sidious had created for the Republic (and eventually the Empire).

2. Dooku (as Tyranus) recruited Jango on the moons of Bogden. Jango knows what's going on as far as the Clone Army is concerned. He may or may not know of Sidious' involvement, but he knows Dooku and Tyranus are the same guy.

3.Dooku knows Sidious is Palpatine. He drops just enough information to Obi Wan to get the Jedi suspicious of the senate. This will come back to haunt them when the "benelovent" Chancellor reveals that the "evil" Jedi are spying on the senate and in fact one of their own (Sifo-Dyas) ordered the clone army 12-14 years ago (as of Episode III). Palpatine will make it seem like the Jedi were making a bid for power and order thier purge.

4. Dooku/Tyranus knows what his master is planning, but he doesn't know all of it. I think Sidious is maneuvering things so that Anakin will replace Dooku as his apprentice and Dooku will find out too late that Sidious is using him as a pawn and a scapegoat much in the same way he is using the Jedi. As for Sidious' master. It is NOT Sifo-Dyas. My theory goes a little something like this: Cos Da**** was a Jedi apprentice at the temple who was never picked to be a padawan at the requisite age of thirteen. As such, he joined the agri corps and was shipped off to a agriculturally rich planet: Naboo. There he was approached by a Sith Lord named Darth________ (it's not really relevant) and trained as a Sith Lord. Darth________ coming from a long line of Sith Lords already has many elements needed to take over the Galaxy in place, including favors owed to him by the Trade Federation and other Business Guilds. Now he needs a political figure inside. So he begins to train the newly renamed Cos Palpatine as a junior legislature. Darth Sidious is crated. Palpatine decides to stay in government far longer than other Nabooians (an oddity on that world) and eventually becomes senator for Naboo and the surrounding systems. After the death of his master, he finds an infant Zabrak and raises him to be Darth Maul. He then manipulates events chronicled in the Prequel Trilogies (and acompanying EU fiction) to become Emperor Palpatine.

And for those of you confused by the whole Sifo-Dyas thing, here is a short timeline of events:


Jedi Master and PROMINENT Council Member Sifo-Dyas is killed.
The events of The Phantom Menace take place. Darth Maul is killed.
Darth Sidious, needing a new apprentice (and not wanting to raise another from birth, the impatient codger) approaches Count Dooku.
Count Dooku accepts, goes to Kamino and orders the clone army posing as Sifo-Dyas, returns to the temple and erases Kamino from the records, then leaves the order and dissappears for ten years.
Ten years later, the events of Attack of the Clones take place.


In conclusion, Sifo-Dyas has no relation to Sidious and/or Tyranus (other than being a contemporary of Tyranus at the Temple.)

stillakid
05-23-2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan


1. Dooku was ACTING for the benefit of Poggle and Nute. He knew all about the army he and Sidious had created for the Republic (and eventually the Empire).

Conjecture. While he clearly is involved in the plot on some level, there is nothing to support the idea that he was acting when he delivered that line of dialogue. In fact, he always actually told the truth, even to Obi Wan, about the Senate being taken over by the Sith.


Originally posted by Eternal Padawan

2. Dooku (as Tyranus) recruited Jango on the moons of Bogden. Jango knows what's going on as far as the Clone Army is concerned. He may or may not know of Sidious' involvement, but he knows Dooku and Tyranus are the same guy.

And...? That has nothing to do with who placed the order in the first place.



Originally posted by Eternal Padawan

3.Dooku knows Sidious is Palpatine. He drops just enough information to Obi Wan to get the Jedi suspicious of the senate. This will come back to haunt them when the "benelovent" Chancellor reveals that the "evil" Jedi are spying on the senate and in fact one of their own (Sifo-Dyas) ordered the clone army 12-14 years ago (as of Episode III). Palpatine will make it seem like the Jedi were making a bid for power and order thier purge.

Sure, the Emperor may be trying to frame the Jedi, but none of us can know that for sure at this point. Ep III hasn't been written yet.


Originally posted by Eternal Padawan

4. Dooku/Tyranus knows what his master is planning, but he doesn't know all of it. I think Sidious is maneuvering things so that Anakin will replace Dooku as his apprentice and Dooku will find out too late that Sidious is using him as a pawn and a scapegoat much in the same way he is using the Jedi. As for Sidious' master. It is NOT Sifo-Dyas. My theory goes a little something like this: Cos Da**** was a Jedi apprentice at the temple who was never picked to be a padawan at the requisite age of thirteen. As such, he joined the agri corps and was shipped off to a agriculturally rich planet: Naboo. There he was approached by a Sith Lord named Darth________ (it's not really relevant) and trained as a Sith Lord. Darth________ coming from a long line of Sith Lords already has many elements needed to take over the Galaxy in place, including favors owed to him by the Trade Federation and other Business Guilds. Now he needs a political figure inside. So he begins to train the newly renamed Cos Palpatine as a junior legislature. Darth Sidious is crated. Palpatine decides to stay in government far longer than other Nabooians (an oddity on that world) and eventually becomes senator for Naboo and the surrounding systems. After the death of his master, he finds an infant Zabrak and raises him to be Darth Maul. He then manipulates events chronicled in the Prequel Trilogies (and acompanying EU fiction) to become Emperor Palpatine.

Who knows about the rest of your story, but the Emperor is expertly playing all sides against each other. The mechanics of how he is doing it will hopefully be revealed in Ep III, but it still doesn't show us definitively who Dyas is.


Originally posted by Eternal Padawan

And for those of you confused by the whole Sifo-Dyas thing, here is a short timeline of events:


Jedi Master and PROMINENT Council Member Sifo-Dyas is killed.
The events of The Phantom Menace take place. Darth Maul is killed.
Darth Sidious, needing a new apprentice (and not wanting to raise another from birth, the impatient codger) approaches Count Dooku.
Count Dooku accepts, goes to Kamino and orders the clone army posing as Sifo-Dyas, returns to the temple and erases Kamino from the records, then leaves the order and dissappears for ten years.
Ten years later, the events of Attack of the Clones take place.


In conclusion, Sifo-Dyas has no relation to Sidious and/or Tyranus (other than being a contemporary of Tyranus at the Temple.)

Conjecture. We don't know who Dyas was, whether he was prominent or not. Sidious needed Dooka's help at some point, but it is undetermined if Dooka is a replacement for Maul or simply another pawn. Dooka did approach Fett, but we have no idea, beyond the name Dyas, who actually ordered the clone army.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 02:08 AM
He is totally acting. The same way he's acting when he tells Obi-Wan "Oh no my friend. There's been a mistake. A terrible mistake. They've gone to far. This is madness!" Complete ham.

True enough. One of Sidious' other pawns could have made the order. But why (in film terms) have two or three different guys running around when one will do? The simplest explanation: Dooku ordered the clones, erased the planet, and left the order. The complicated and irrelevant explanation is that Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones for Sidious, was killed by Maul, or Dooku, or Sidious. Then someone called Tyranus, either Dooku, or Maul or Sidious or Sifo-Dyas or a fourth person hired Jango. Why bother with all that extra confusion? It serves no purpose in the movie. This isn't the Usual Suspects you know. Everybody knows who Keyser Soze...er, Palpatine is.


Actually, since Yoda and Mace and Obi-Wan referred to Sifo Dyas as a Jedi Master that is NOT conjecture.

Dooku IS Maul's replacement AND a pawn...

Since Jango was hired by Tyranus and Sidious refers to Dooku as Tyranus THAT is not conjecture. Unless...


Assuming there are two Tyranus, we would also have to assume the Lando Han is talking about is a different one that meets them on Bespin. The Jabba that places the bounty on Han's head is different from the one that we meet in ROJ. The son of Skywalker that vader and the Emperor are looking for is NOT Luke. The Obi-Wan Tarkin refers to is NOT the same Ben Kenobi that is helping Luke. Anakin Skywalker WAS a navigator on a spice freighter and had no relation to Darth Vader. All of this is conjecture in the OT. or it's not.

2-1B
05-23-2002, 03:10 AM
Dooku also was acting when he told Kenobi, "there are no bounty hunters here I assure you, the Geonosians don't trust them." A complete lie! :D

Dooku = Tyrannus = clone orderer
We're digging too deep here. In the movie Obi-Wan learns that Jango was recruited by a man called Tyrannus. At the end of the film, as Palpatine commends Dooku (wouldn't Palps be ****ed if Dooku wasn't supposed to get squashed by clones?) he calls him Tyrannus. The audience now knows who placed the order and who he was working for. The characters do not.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Dooku also was acting when he told Kenobi, "there are no bounty hunters here I assure you, the Geonosians don't trust them." A complete lie! :D

Dooku = Tyrannus = clone orderer
We're digging too deep here. In the movie Obi-Wan learns that Jango was recruited by a man called Tyrannus. At the end of the film, as Palpatine commends Dooku (wouldn't Palps be ****ed if Dooku wasn't supposed to get squashed by clones?) he calls him Tyrannus. The audience now knows who placed the order and who he was working for. The characters do not.

We ARE digging to deep. I guess what's obvious to me isn't obvious to others. It's not that serious. If others have different theories (Like Sifo-Dyas and Sidious being the same guy) more power to them. It's just a film. I'm off to speculate about Episode III. Ta.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 09:56 AM
I hope Dryanta doesn't mind, but a portion of his poem from this thread( http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8691 ) seems fitting to end this speculation:


Originally posted by Dryanta
I found Sifo Dyas,
Not meant to start trouble.
Sorry to say it guys,
It's an empty bubble!!;)

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 10:01 AM
Right on, stillakid. Right on.

So....what's Mas Ammeda's deal? Does he know what Palpatine has planned? It seems pretty convenient when he brings up Senator Amidala's name at the meeting to grant the Chancellor emergency powers. Is he just a dolt, or is he a playah in all this?;)

Croaker
05-23-2002, 10:12 AM
Yoda, Mace and Obi all knew of a Jedi named Sifo Dyas (or Cypher Diaz as I imagined it spelt when I saw the movie).
Obi probably didn't know him personally, but Mace and Yoda would have.
So this Jedi is killed more than 10 years ago.
Someone places an order in his name after his death. this could be Dooku or palpatine. Doesn't really matter.

Jango is recruited by Tyrannus about 10 years ago to start the cloning. tyrannus is Dooku - this is said in the movie.

that all seems simple enough. There are only two confusing issues here.

1. Dooku is associated with Darth Sidious (the overseer of this plan) ten years ago when maul was still alive. That means that he was just a ****ed off jedi who was dealing with the other side and Maul and Sidious were the sith (He would have become a full fledged sith after maul's death)
or
there were three sith at the time. Maul, Tyrannus and Sidious.

2. the name Sifo-Dyas is startlingly close to Sidious. Now the chances that they are the same person are small.

I did like the idea that someone put forth that Palpy was a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas who faked his death and planted some kind of Dark side hypnotic suggestion for people to not be concerned (hence no investigation etc.).
Now the only problem with this is that he would have had to have been Senator Palpatine at the same time and he couldn't have been a Jedi master and senator at the same time and keep everyone fooled. Not enough time in the day to be a good jedi, an evil jedi and a senator.
Same type of objection to S-D being Sidious's master. I don't think that the sith are hidden in the jedi order. They are a separate order. And if he was that makes FOUR sith 10 years ago (Sifo-Dyas, Sidious, Tyrannus, Maul)
It does make sense however that fallen Jedi could become sith though. (like dooku)

Another idea problem. Sidious could have made up a jedi name that was a derivative of his, but Obi, Mace and Yoda all recognize the name Sifo-Dyas as a real guy who lived in the past. So this is bunk.


So it does seem as if Sifo-Dyas was a real guy, separate from Sidious, Dooku (or Qui-Gon in some theories).
Someone used his name shortly after his death to order the clone army - the Kamians wouldn't have known the difference.

this does seem odd that this plot twist would be introduced - with some Jedi that we'll never meet.
So, yes, there may be more going on here.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 11:12 AM
From interviews with George Lucas in Insider #60, Sidious contacted Dooku to be his new apprentice after Maul got diced.

And since Sifo-Dyas was a COUNCIL MEMBER and he wasn't in The Phantom Menace, he must have died before the events of Episode I. Now it's quite possible that he was mixed up with Sidious and Maul and Maul killed him, but thats irrelevant. The clone order was placed AFTER he died, because Obi Wan says as much in the film. Whether Maul posing as Sifo-Dyas or Dooku posing as Sifo-Dyas, or Sidious posing as Sifo-Dyas ordered the clones is also in question.

Is it safe to assume A SITH (whichever one) posed as Sifo-Dyas and placed the clone order? Does it really matter which one? Then Tyranus hired Jango to be the clone template and also deleted Kamino from the archives.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Croaker

or
there were three sith at the time. Maul, Tyrannus and Sidious.




And it's my understanding that there can only be 2 Sith at a time. So assuming that Tyrannus is a Sith, then the above can't be true and Tyrannus became part of the Sith Order after Maul got split in two.

All that is for certain is that Dooka/Tyrannus hired Jango to be the host. That isn't an indication that it was Dooka who placed the order.

And seeing that Palpatine's MO is to keep his hands clean and get others to do the dirty work for him, it is unlikely that Dyas is Sidious or used the Dyas name himself to frame the Jedi.

So Dyas is either:

A) Sidious's Master who was a Sith in secret while serving on the council (in the same way Palpatine is a Sith in secret while serving as Chancellor)

B) Maul, who used the Dyas name while placing the order.

C) Dooka who used the Dyas name while placing the order.

Because we don't have any information on how this Dyas died, if the answer to the question is either B or C, then it could be surmised that Maul or Dooka had a hand in killing Dyas so they could use the name safely.

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 11:37 AM
If Sifo-Dyas was Sidious' master than there would have been three sith lords since Sidious raised Maul from an infant and Sifo-Dyas only died ten years ago. So I don't think SD was a sith but rather an unfortunate Jedi who slipped on a banana peel and died.

Then Maul or Dooku (I say Dooku) realized they could use his name to place the order without any one ever sniffing around since he was dead. Maul might have killed him (remember Dooku wasn't involved with the Sith at this point if SD died before TPM as Obi Wan intimated) but whether he killed him or not doesn't really have any bearing on the events of AOTC.

Mandalorian Candidat
05-23-2002, 11:38 AM
It looks like everyone has some convincing arguments, but my first impression was that Qui-Gon had a hand in it and it was really apparent to me that it was him and noone else. I don't know if this tidbit will develop into anything bigger in EP3, but regardless I think we can all agree that this was excellent writing on Lucas' part. If we're endlessly debating this alarming chain of events then he did a good job.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
If Sifo-Dyas was Sidious' master than there would have been three sith lords since Sidious raised Maul from an infant and Sifo-Dyas only died ten years ago.

That info isn't in any of the films? :confused:

Eternal Padawan
05-23-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


That info isn't in any of the films? :confused:


:confused: Which info? What?

Sidious has an apprentice named Darth Maul in Episode I.
Sifo- Dyas died ten years ago.
I suppose you could argue that immediately after SD died, Sidious rushed out and found Maul and trained him in a few weeks, but in actuality as stated in Star Wars Insider #60 Sidious raised Maul from birth and after he died he needed to find a replacement apprentice and didn't want to raise another one, so he contacted Dooku. That's straight from George's lips in an interview in the mag.

Rogue II
05-23-2002, 12:09 PM
So supposedly, sneaky Sith Siduous secretly set-up some Jedi so his side stood supreme.

or something like that

Croaker
05-23-2002, 01:40 PM
I agree that it was dooku who used the name to order the clones.
This would have taken place very shortly after the events of TPM.

And it means that Sidious' master died many, many years before.

vulcantouch
05-23-2002, 03:27 PM
adding a sifo-dyas character from out of nowhere dilutes the story's impact, i agree. also, having him be a third pseudonym for either sidious or dooku seems similarly dopey. which, assuming lucas will avoid either storytelling crutch, leaves the most intriguing possibilities raised by yall here:

theory: sifo was sid's master
relevant strength: nothing directly contradicts it
relevant weakness: since only 2 sith there can be at once, this requires that sid must've been able to keep his training of/existence of maul secret from sifo for several years, cuz no way could maul be that good without Years of training (i.e., sid didn't just recruit him when sifo died). then maul & sid killed sifo.

theory: sifo was quigon
strength: explains his "blind" advocacy of the future vader
weakness: supported mainly by timing, and kinda seems a stretch of the character

theory: sifo was yoda
strength: intros fatal, obiwan-like flaw & future regret into yoda's character; rounds him out nicely
weakness: seems a stretch

theory: dooku's conducting a rogue infiltration of the sith, not joining it
strength: explains his apparent ambivalence, and neatly allows sid to discover this & replace dooku with anakin when the time's right
weakness: requires that dooku have donnie brasco syndrome; otherwise, his handing over the ds plans to sid seems a bit extreme for a double-agent :rolleyes:

one thing's for sure: sid was never a jedi, cuz aside from the recognition factor, being a jedi And a politician's way too much for anyone's plate :p
also, jeffrey "50's robot" tambor of the techno union will have a hand in vader's bionic transformation :evil:
vt

DaneSolo
05-23-2002, 05:49 PM
I interpreted the puzzle this way:
Sypho (or Sypher) Dyas was recruited by Dooku, who at the time was still a Jedi who was becoming disillusioned. Although Sidious had a Sith apprentice--Maul--there can still exist dark Jedi. Sidious, obviously used Maul to the end, perhaps forseeing his quick demise and knowing he needing to allign a new apprentice--Dooku. Dooku lured Sypho Dyas into this secret plot. Sypho ordered the Clones without the senate or the Jedi council's knowledge. Once this was accomplished Dooku (or maybe even Maul) killed Sypho Dyas to cover their tracks. This may explain why there is a non-Master-level Jedi on the council--Ki-Adi Mundi.
Just my take on the whole conspiracy thing.

scruffziller
05-23-2002, 07:11 PM
The biggest trick the Emporer ever pulled was makeing us think he's not behind it all. None of us realize how powerful the emperor is. Only he could will the force over such great distances. Do you really think all this that has happened is by accedint. Think this, I do not. The emperers plan is comeing together perfectly. Dooku is the Emperors chump. He's just useing him to do his bidding. The Emperor plan is so complex it is near impossible to see. It would not be confusing the figure out that he was controlling everything.


(this basically explains Palpy) i didn't write the above

stillakid
05-23-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan



:confused: Which info? What?

Sidious has an apprentice named Darth Maul in Episode I.
Sifo- Dyas died ten years ago.
I suppose you could argue that immediately after SD died, Sidious rushed out and found Maul and trained him in a few weeks, but in actuality as stated in Star Wars Insider #60 Sidious raised Maul from birth and after he died he needed to find a replacement apprentice and didn't want to raise another one, so he contacted Dooku. That's straight from George's lips in an interview in the mag.

You said that Maul was raised from birth by Palpatine. That information isn't in any of the films. If it is important enough to be a determining factor in creating a plot twist, then it should be on camera. If we are to start taking extraneous information into consideration, then we have to also assume that Mace Windu used to be a Jawa before becoming a Jedi. :)

In any case, I hadn't heard that Maul birth thing so if true, it completely changes everything I said. Oh well. Gotta wait for Ep III or another issue of Insider where George prints the stuff he meant to put in the movie but forgot.:rolleyes:

mrmiller
05-24-2002, 08:46 AM
Who says that Maul's species doesn't reach adulthood in 10 years? 10 years is quite a long time, and a lot can be learned/taught. I still like my prevoius thoughts the Sidous/Palapitine was Dyas apprentace who kills him and then takes Maul on. (page 7 post 105)

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=90807#post90807

=MATT=

Rogue II
05-24-2002, 09:13 AM
I don't its matters if he raised him or not, as long as he trained him. Look how fast Luke learned and he didn't have much training with Ben or Yoda.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Rogue II
I don't its matters if he raised him or not, as long as he trained him. Look how fast Luke learned and he didn't have much training with Ben or Yoda.


It matters in terms of the scenario that I hypothetically invented to explain who Dyas is. If Maul has been a Sith for 20 years or more, then it is more unlikely that Dyas was Palpatine's Master. But I was basing my conjecture purely on the information that was delivered in the movies. Extraneous character information like that coming from "expanded universe" material throws all bets out the window (nice mixed metaphor! Oh well.)

Jedi Clint
05-24-2002, 10:59 AM
The point in using Sifo-Dyas' name is to frame the Jedi for starting the conflict that devastates the Republic.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
The point in using Sifo Dyas name is to frame the Jedi for starting the conflict that devastates the Republic.


That may be true but it will only be useful as a plot tool if there is some kind of "trial" in Ep III in which the Kamino's are asked to testify. Otherwise, that info will just be between the Kamino aliens, Obi Wan, and the Jedi Council and thereby useless as a framing tool.

Jedi Clint
05-24-2002, 11:28 AM
The senators will want to know how this clone army came to be created for the Republic. It doesn't matter whether that info appears on screen in E3.

Rogue II
05-24-2002, 11:30 AM
I'll buy your story, but I don't think there has to be a trial. Palpatine could just blame the Jedi for the war. We know George Lucas bases his stuff off of myths and history. Hitler blamed the Jews for WWI and lots of Germans followed him.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
The senators will want to know how this clone army came to be created for the Republic. It doesn't matter whether that info appears on screen in E3.


:eek: :confused: :eek: Not onscreen? Then how do we know that they know? Will there be an supplementary information sheet available on the way in to the theater for all the stuff he didn't fit into the actual movie?:confused:

Jedi Clint
05-24-2002, 12:05 PM
Did Luke give his saber to the troops that captured him on Endor, or did they have to take it from him? It doesn't matter. The end result was evident to the audience. The trusting relationship that the Jedi have with the Republic will be irreparably damaged by the Sifo-Dyas issue. We use our imagination to figure out exactly how that happens.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Did Luke give his saber to the troops that captured him on Endor, or did they have to take it from him? It doesn't matter, the end result was evident to the audience. The trusting relationship that the Jedi have with the Republic will be irreparably damaged by the Sifo-Dyas issue. We use our imagination to figure out exactly how that happens.


But that only works because we see the lightsaber with a) the officer in the shot and b) with Luke in the shot. Not so difficult to piece together.

Intangible political maneuvering is something else entirely. The knowledge of the name, Dyas, isn't a tangible smoking gun that can be assumed to be known by anyone except by those the audience actually sees learning about it.

Think of it this way: If, in Ep III, we see Palpatine in front of the Senate suddenly announce this information to everyone before we see the Jedi tell him, it is safe to assume by everyone, that Palpatine is in on the plan. Of course we know that is true, but the Jedi don't...yet. Unless, of course, Palpatine intends on revealing himself to the Jedi at that point, the Jedi will have no idea that Palpatine is an evil bastard until later on sometime.

The point is that if the Dyas name is brought up by anyone other than the Jedi or the Kamino's, then the Jedi will know that that source is part of the plot. We HAVE to see either the Kamino's or the Jedi tell the Senate or the Chancellor in order for the 'Framing" plot to succeed.

Of course, if the Chancellor gets up in his little pod and uses the information to frame the Jedi, it'll be his word against theirs. (in that circumstance, the Jedi would know without a doubt that Palpatine is a Sith and that could instigate the war against the Jedi!) I don't think we have enough information at this point to accurately discern how loyal the Senators are to either one of them. Cloudy the future is.

maulreborn
05-24-2002, 05:57 PM
PALPATINE is a Darth Sidious clone whos was made without his dark skills to hide his presence from the Jedi

Jedi Clint
05-24-2002, 06:18 PM
Except not.

jjreason
05-24-2002, 06:51 PM
I think we'll find out that Sifo-Dyas did place the order for the army. This could have happened under the auspice that it was authorized by the Jedi council and he was acting in good faith, or through him being in league with Palpatine. One would need some kind of Jedi ID to authorize such a thing. Not that Palpatine couldn't get one faked...
Maybe Palpatine was having "tryouts" for apprentices to see who would do his bidding more suitably and used Dooku and Sifo-Dyas (and others?) to help him lay more of the foundation for his coup.
Sifo-Dyas would have been killed shortly after making the order by someone working for Palpatine - used and then discarded. To prevent anyone finding out about the clone order and it's source. Dooku may have had Sifo-Dyas' confidence as a trusted comrade and if so could have used him easily in this manner on behalf of Palpatine.
I hope they do reveal what happened as this is one of the real mysteries of AOTC.

Eternal Padawan
05-25-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Except not.

Exactly. I wish all this Sidious and Palpatine clone nonsense would go away.

RooJay
05-25-2002, 03:20 PM
Jedi ID?! Sith Apprentice try-outs?!

Rogue II
05-25-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
Jedi ID?! Sith Apprentice try-outs?!

I can just see it now:

Pan to Royal Palace audatorium
Palpatine: Next!
-Skinny guy wearing a bow tie moves to center stage
Palpatine: Name?
Sith applicant: Paul Rue...Uhhh....Darth Pee-Wee
Palpatine: Ok, lets see what you got.
Sith applicant: Ok....THE STARS AT NIGHT ARE BIG AND....
<Palpatine uses the Force to choke applicant>
Palpatine: Next!

jjreason
05-25-2002, 05:45 PM
You guys are harsh....I mean he could have been "courting" more than one possible apprentice, coddling each one and keeping them unbeknownst to the others. A Sith network if you will. Palpatine is obviously a master of manipulation, who knows if Sifo-Dyas could resist? Not us, not yet. He could have even set up a showdown between Dooku and Dyas to see who would fill the spot. Hopefully we'll find out what DID happen (so I can be proven right!!! ; ) )

Rogue II
05-25-2002, 09:26 PM
Here is the way I see it. I don't think Sifo Dyas ever saw or talked with any Cloner. Someone was posing as him...but who?

stillakid
05-25-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Rogue II
Here is the way I see it. I don't think Sifo Dyas ever saw or talked with any Cloner. Someone was posing as him...but who?


SOLVED! :D LOL

RooJay
05-26-2002, 04:48 AM
I'm sorry jjreason. I hope you don't think I was trying to make fun of you at all. I just thought that was an interesting choice of words. In a sense, I agree with you completely! I think Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi who may have been taken in by Palpatine as a pawn. I believe the REAL Master Sifo-Dyas probably did have ties to Sidious, and probably worked for him, but I'm not so sure I can believe that he was a Sith or that he even knew what Sidious really was before he lost his life. I'm pretty much convinced that Palpatine's manipulations crept deep within the Jedi order. I think he may have several unwitting Jedi pawns. Dooku was certainly one (he even became Sidious' apprentice!), Sifo-Dyas seems likely to have been one, and I'm beginning to think Qui-Gon might actually have been an unkowing pawn of the Sith! Maybe Dooku was right, at least in part. Maybe Qui-Gon would have joined him. Maybe Qui-Gon might've seen that restoring order to the Galaxy would've been a worthy cause to achieve through whatever means necessary. Maybe. I'm opening up a whole new can of worms here though (and possibly insighting an argument that either neither have the patience for, nor think is important enough for my time!). I'm not saying Qui-Gon would necessarily turn to the Dark Side, or that he'd knowingly work for the Sith, but I think it's possible he may have been a pawn in Palpatine's grand scheme. Maybe things really can be going all as Sidious has forseen! Maybe. Guess we'll have to wait and see!;)

Eternal Padawan
05-26-2002, 08:37 AM
What? Where is this Qui Gon theory coming from? Did I miss something?


originally by jjreason
Sifo-Dyas would have been killed shortly after making the order by someone working for Palpatine - used and then discarded. To prevent anyone finding out about the clone order and it's source. Dooku may have had Sifo-Dyas' confidence as a trusted comrade and if so could have used him easily in this manner on behalf of Palpatine.

Except Sifo-Dyas died before the order was placed. Obi-Wan says so in the film. So whoever placed the order was merely using SD's name. Maybe it was Maul or Sidious, but more likely it was Dooku.

It doesn't explain how SD died, but I think that's irrelevant. He died before the events of Phantom Menace and Ki-Adi- Mundi took his place on the council.

jjreason
05-26-2002, 02:44 PM
Obi Wan says he's "of the understanding" the SD died near that time, doesn't he? Not exactly written in stone.
We do know that Tyranus contracted Fett to be the clone source, so the odds are on him placing the order as well. Why get more than one set of hands dirty? Again, this has become a hot topic to say the least, and it's one I hope they "officially" deal with in the next movie. The good thing is we only have 2 years, 11 months and 3 weeks to wait.....

JediTricks
05-26-2002, 06:24 PM
Just because Lama Su thinks Sifo Dyas was on the council doesn't make it so. There's no reason to believe that piece of information is accurate.

jjreason
05-26-2002, 07:15 PM
I was just looking in the novel of AOTC for any more info. After Obi Wan reports back to Yoda and Mace, Yoda suggests to Mace that they need to find out exactly when the order was placed to solve the mystery of who placed it. Yoda even states that SD would have had to die (read in here: be killed by Palpatine's agent) shortly after placing the order, if he in fact did place it. In case anyone with any pull is reading, this NEEDS to be solved in epIII.

Jedi Clint
05-26-2002, 08:28 PM
Yoda didn't say SD would have had to die shortly after placing the order in the novel so far as I remember. He did mention the other portion of what you posted. I previously posted every reference to SD from the novel in this topic....like page 3 or so.

jjreason
05-26-2002, 10:45 PM
Pg. 237 "When placed, this order was, may provide insight" Yoda said and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed the order right before he died.

I guess that much is true. Yoda does not say those words, it's Salvatore's interpretation of what Yoda's thinking at the time he's talking to Mace. Still no closer to the truth.

Jedi Clint
05-27-2002, 12:32 AM
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought I had been pretty thorough in my book quoting:

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=86754#post86754

I didn't go check that page, but I'll take your word for it :). Thank you for adding that extra info. I guess my m.o. was to take what the characters said about SD from the novel, and I missed a couple of the little bits that R.A. added. It kind of supports a theory I have on the subject. I think Dooku timed SD murder and the order close together in a way that would make it impossible for those who would eventually investigate the events to pin down exactly what happened and when.

Eternal Padawan
05-27-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Just because Lama Su thinks Sifo Dyas was on the council doesn't make it so. There's no reason to believe that piece of information is accurate.

He doesn't think SD was on the council, he asks if he is still a leading member. But yeah, I guess whoever placed the order gave Lama Su that info, so it origins are suspect. But Obi Wan didn't argue the fact which makes me think it's accurate. And since the only two members to be replaced on the council since were Yareal Poof and Yaddle (replaced by Coleman Trebor and Shaak-Ti), SD must've been replaced prior to TPM. In the Episode I Visual Guide, it says Ki-Adi-Mundi is a recent addition to the council. I liberally put two and two together. It sounds a little more plausible than Sifo-Dyas being a council member AND a Sith Lord. Or (heaven forfend) QUI GON JINN putting in the clone order...I'm still not getting that one.

Laserbrain
05-27-2002, 02:24 PM
Has anyone questioned how exactly Palpatine gained knowledge in the Force? Being a politician he spend his youth preparing for that role, much like Padme'. Also notice, that Palpy never used a lightsaber. He was not a Jedi. Dooku made a strict differentiation between knowledge of the Force, and skill with a lightsaber during his duel with Yoda. Palpatine was instructed in one but not the other.

It was stated in TPM that if Anakin were born within the Republic he would have been screened for a midiclorian count, they would have discovered that his count was off the charts, and raised in the Jedi Temple. A minimum midiclorian count is necessary to channel the Force to the extent a Jedi needs to. If Palpatine was born with the midiclorians he would have been taken away from his family and raised a Jedi.

This suggests that Palpatine was all of a sudden Force sensitive. Can midiclorains be synthesised?

Then begs the question, who trained Palpatine to be a Sith Lord?

Croaker
05-27-2002, 02:30 PM
You've got a point there.
It implies that Palpatine was not born on Naboo, or was somehow able to cloak his ability from a remarkably young age.

And he would have been trained by the previous Sith Lord. Someone I don't think we'll ever hear about since he was likely long dead before the events of TPM.

Laserbrain
05-27-2002, 02:54 PM
Incase the linking was vague, we know that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who did bad things.

What is a Jedi Master who does bad things? He is a Sith.

I think Sifo-Dyas is the original Sith Lord who trained Palpatine in the ways of the Dark Side. Then Palpy killed Sifo-Dyas just before TPM, taking his place and continuing Sifo's plans for a clone army.

Darth Maul would have had to learn his skill with his double-bladed lightsaber from a Jedi, suggesting that Sifo-Dyas instructed him. We know this because the two apprenteces Palpy took on after Maul, Tyrannus and Vader, were already Jedi and knew how to use the blade.

Palpatine is a politician, not a Jedi. What happens when a politician becomes a Sith?

Daaa-daa-daaa-dut-daa-daa....

(sorry for the mispellings...)

Croaker
05-27-2002, 02:56 PM
How do we know that he did bad things?
In the movie it is implied that he died BEFORE the order was put through, meaning that someone impersonated him.

And if Sifo was the sith lord and he trained Sidious as well as Maul that leaves the problem of having three sith at once.

darthvader92
05-27-2002, 05:31 PM
Sypho-Dyas is Palp alter-ego.You have to think there is more sith than 2.Which brings me to this.Palp and Mace are the sith.Dooku is trying to destroy the sith from within.Reason why I say Mace is..... that he had the chance to end the Clone Wars before they began by killing Dooku.He went after Jango.Anankin only listens to him and Palp too.But the kicker will be...he was the one that earsed Kamino from the archives.

Rogue II
05-27-2002, 06:25 PM
Geez Darthvader92, you are way out there.

Palpatine and SD are not the same person. SD was on the Jedi council the same time Palpatine was a member of the Senate. At best, Palpatine(aka Darth Sidious) used Sifo-Dyas' identity to order the Clone Army. If it wasn't Palpy, it was most likely Dooku or Darth Maul. Either way, Palpatine was behind the creation of the Clone Army. Since he framed the Jedis by using Sifo-Dyas' name he will be able to blame the entire Clone War on the Jedi and will proceed to exterminate them. Very similar to what Hitler did to the Jews, eh?
Mace is not Sith. He went after Jango because Jango was trying to BBQ him. Either Palpy or Dooku must have erased Kamino from the database. Obviously, the Jedi cannot see the dark side. How many times have the Jedi been around Paply and don't notice anything funny? So one of the Sith could have waltzed in and changed the archives.
I get this feeing that Lucas will never explain how Palpatine got his Sith powers.

Laserbrain
05-27-2002, 08:33 PM
I think Sifo-Dyas was the one who erased the records from the database when he ordered the clone project. I think he trained Palpatine and learned the rule of the Sith the hard way. It has be established in the E1 novel that Palpy was born and raised on Naboo and was not Force sensative. The only answer to this reasoning is that Palpatine was somehow injected with midiclorains.

With all the cloning going on, ya never know...

It has also been established by GL that all the ideals in Episode 1 were purely symbolic. Especially this "Chosen One" deal. What did Shimi tell Qui-Gon about Anakin's father? She said, "There was no father. I carried him, gave birth to him, and rasied him."

Now what's on everybody's mind these days that can account for that sort of thing?

I'm reasonably certain Anakin is a clone. ;)

Jedi Clint
05-27-2002, 09:43 PM
Where was it established that Palpatine A) wast born on Naboo, and B) wasn't force sensitive in TPM novel? If I am wrong I will admit it, but I don't remember either bit of info ever being mentioned. Injected with midichlorians? Where is the precedent for that established? I am willing to bet that the only clones in the SW saga wear white armor. All this cloning around is getting out of hand.

Beast
05-27-2002, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
I am willing to bet that the only clones in the SW saga wear white armor.
Mwahahaha, you lose! Unless Boba Fett's armor all of a sudden gets a white paint makeover in the archival versions of the OT. Pay up, my friend. :)

Sorry, I couldn't help being a smartarse. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jedi Clint
05-27-2002, 10:11 PM
:D :D I admit defeat, but I revise my statement as well:

I am willing to bet that the only clones in the SW saga wear white armor....except Boba Fett. ;)

Rogue II
05-27-2002, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
:D :D I admit defeat, but I revise my statement as well:

I am willing to bet that the only clones in the SW saga wear white armor....except Boba Fett. ;)

I agree with you, but I don't believe that all Stormtroopers were clones either, but that's a completely different discussion.

jjreason
05-28-2002, 01:15 AM
Wow. That post about Ani being a clone chilled me down to the marrow. That would be the kicker that would nearly outdo "Luke, I am your father." Im figuring on a honking big surprise in EpIII, and boy that fits the bill. Damn spoilers.....

Amanamike
05-28-2002, 02:38 AM
Here are my 2 cents again.


1. Anakin cant be a clone because clones grow ata faster rate, and Anakin is growing normally according to his age.

2. Mace Windu is definitely a bad guy. Just loom at him in every scene in the movie the way he looks nervous or guilty. And besides George Lucas had him in his original plans for the Prequels when he first thoughtup the idea of Star Wars and his Mace back then turned bad. So I am totally in the Mace=Sith mind set. here are some examples of what I saw.

- His look of "uh oh hes catching on to something" everytime yoda talks to him.

-His purple lightsaber. When you mix a blue lightsaber(jedi) with a red lightsaber(sith) you get purple.

- When Mace is around Yoda, Yoda always has clouded vision. He saw more when he was meditating alone until Mace walked in and it was cut off. When Yoda fought Dooku when Mace wasnt around he sensed the dark side in him. But when Maced is around he cant sense anything. Mace wanted to tell the senate that their vision is of no use right now. Why?? like Yoda said, "Give them the advantage that will"

- Mace knew that Yoda wanted Jango captured and brought before the coucil for questioning. So i believe this is why he wanted to kill him so bad in the arena. I know it looked like it was cause Jango tried to roast him, but that was just a ruse. Mace was hell bent on killing Jango...revenge??? Isnt that a sith trait to go after someone?? That looked like he wanted to kick his ***,he was relentless.

- Mace is the closest thing to Yoda and on the council has the second most power. Anakin said it himself. Who else could cloud Yodas vision. When Mace talks to Yoda, he always asks him, "what is it??" like he cant sense it too.

-also on another theory note, Dooku seemed stunned whn he saw the clone army. He had no idea what they were doing or where they came from. When he and his other leaders were watching the battle from the Holonet thing. He couldnt believe what he was seeing. So I believe Mace ordered the clones under Sifa Dyas name and Dooku was in charge of getting the other half of Palpatines plan up,with all the droid army. I believe Dooku was kept in the dark more than we think. Ive watched the movie 4 times now, and Im certain that there is more to Mace Windu than we are seeing. There are even little things about him in Episode 1 that seem weird too, like his quick to jump on finding outwho the mysterious sith was before Yoda could get a word in edge wise.


These are just my opions, but Im willing to bet money on Ep 3 that he is a bad guy and not what we see him as. He has to act good around everyone else or he would be seen as a sith. Its the same with Palpatine, he acts like he cares and wants no part of a war but accepts it as a burden and will change things back quick. Mace is just as deceptive in his speaches.

2-1B
05-28-2002, 03:27 AM
Mace begged George for his purple lightsaber, suggested by Nick Gillard. So I don't believe the color has anything to do with George's plans for the character.

They didn't need to question Jangers anymore (about the attacks, the clones are a different aspect) since Obi-Wan "solved" the mystery of who was behind the attacks. I don't believe Mace's slaying of Fett was a coverup of anything.

There is absolutely no way that Dooku does not know of the clone army, unless he has Alzheimer's and forgot that he recruited Jango Fett as a clone template. And since the plan was to start a war (as confirmed by his meeting with Sidious) he had to know the clone army existed.

Laserbrain
05-28-2002, 03:27 AM
Anakin being a clone is the only explanation possible, unless one believes in the boogedey-boogedey man ;)

If Shimi, being the good mother (Padme' being the bad), had lied to Anakin all these years, she at the least would have said, "Ani, you're a clone of Dart...". Instead, she told the truth, omitting a few tidbits, and her last words were "I love you."

If that leap of logic is accepted, then you can assume that midiclorians can be manipulated. Why else would they be in the story anyway? It nearly goes against everything laid down in the OT. I believe GL wants a mechanical connection to the Force for a reason.

If midiclorians can be put into a clone, why couldn't they be put into a senator? If Palpatine was born with as many midiclorains it would take to do the things he has done, he would have been raised to be a Jedi.

Rogue II
05-28-2002, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by Laserbrain
Anakin being a clone is the only explanation possible, unless one believes in the boogedey-boogedey man ;)


I have 2 explanations other than the clone theory:

1. Well, ever hear of a Jedi Mind Trick? Some Jedi/Sith could have said to Shmi, "You will give me some sweet lovin' and not remember it."

2. I hate to bring religion into this, but.....ever hear of the Virgin Mary? The Jedis profitized about the one who will bring balance to the force...wasn't there something similar that happened, oh, about 2002 or so years ago? George Lucas does like to use Historical and Mythical stories in his movies.

Besides, what would the logic be of planting a clone in a woman who was to become a slave and then stick her on place like Tatooine?

How much longer until Episode 3?

Eternal Padawan
05-28-2002, 09:43 AM
Here's my theory why Palpatine could have had force training, again...As for Sidious' master. It is NOT Sifo-Dyas. My theory goes a little something like this: Cos Da**** was a Jedi apprentice at the temple who was never picked to be a padawan at the requisite age of thirteen. As such, he joined the agri corps and was shipped off to a agriculturally rich planet: Naboo. There he was approached by a Sith Lord named Darth________ (it's not really relevant) and trained as a Sith Lord. Darth________ coming from a long line of Sith Lords already has many elements needed to take over the Galaxy in place, including favors owed to him by the Trade Federation and other Business Guilds. Now he needs a political figure inside. So he begins to train the newly renamed Cos Palpatine as a junior legislature. Darth Sidious is crated. Palpatine decides to stay in government far longer than other Nabooians (an oddity on that world) and eventually becomes senator for Naboo and the surrounding systems. After the death of his master, he finds an infant Zabrak and raises him to be Darth Maul. He then manipulates events chronicled in the Prequel Trilogies (and acompanying EU fiction) to become Emperor Palpatine.

Futher expanding on that. Sifo-Dyas might have recognized Da**** (now Palpatine) from his days at the temple, when they were both training together. Palpatine might have approached him about being a Sith accomplice and he was forced to kill SD when he turned him down. Or he just didn't want to be connected to the temple, so he had him offed. But that's all EU...

darthvyn
05-28-2002, 11:10 AM
count dooku is feigning ignorance about the clones to his confederacy "allies." he knows all about the army, because he is working with sidious, and at the end tells him "good news, war has begun..." not "hey, who were all the stormtroopers with jango's mask and what were they doing there?" he knows... remember, they are both working together to bring the galaxy into conflict. when is the chancellor most powerful? in times of emergency and strife. the more crap that happens, the more powerful he becomes. paplatine is playing the republic and this new confederacy like an 80's double necked guitar...

Croaker
05-28-2002, 11:18 AM
I love your choice of name in that explanation
Cos Da****
Cause Da sh*t
Cause the sh*t

Nice.

Rogue II
05-28-2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
count dooku is feigning ignorance about the clones to his confederacy "allies." he knows all about the army, because he is working with sidious, and at the end tells him "good news, war has begun..." not "hey, who were all the stormtroopers with jango's mask and what were they doing there?" he knows... remember, they are both working together to bring the galaxy into conflict. when is the chancellor most powerful? in times of emergency and strife. the more crap that happens, the more powerful he becomes. paplatine is playing the republic and this new confederacy like an 80's double necked guitar...

I agree with darthvyn and Eternal Padawan.

The only people leading double lives here are Dooku and Palpatine. Not Mace, Not Qui-Gon.

Not everyone in Star Wars is a clone. Boba Fett, yes. The clone troopers, obviously. Anakin/Vader, no. Han Solo, Lando, no way (sorry, had to throw those 2 in there).

Amanamike
05-28-2002, 12:04 PM
All I can say is We'll see!" I know Mace is a bad guy just watch im. And I know he befgged lucas for the purple lightsaber, but if you know what Lucas is like, he never does anything with out giving it a reason in his movie. Thats what he said.

Jedi Clint
05-28-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Croaker
I love your choice of name in that explanation
Cos Da****
Cause Da sh*t
Cause the sh*t

Nice.

Dag Nabbit! I had been waiting for that name to come up again, so I could point out the exact same thing!!! ;) I believe that is from an early version of ANH that George wrote. I think it was intentional.

Jedi Clint
05-28-2002, 12:22 PM
I've seen nothing to even remotely suggest that Mace is a bad guy.

Rogue II
05-28-2002, 12:29 PM
Well, red and blue do make purple, but I can't see Mace turning to the Dark Side. Granted, he is one bad mother <insert Shaft theme song here>. But the color of his lightsaber is not evidence of his betrayal. I don't see anything else that makes me think he is going to go Sith either. He will die as a Jedi.



Is it 2005 yet?

aikman
05-28-2002, 01:13 PM
Anakins a clone.
Cloned from the emperor, who has a large midichlorian count id wager being the most powerful sith in the galaxy.

ep III:
Sidious: "Anakin I am your father"

Laserbrain
05-28-2002, 01:30 PM
About Mace, something that's been brought up is how easily he took out Jango Fett. The Obi-Wan/Jango fight would have had the exact same outcome if they had fought on a flat, open area and it wasn't storming.

*********************************
Besides, what would the logic be of planting a clone in a woman who was to become a slave and then stick her on place like Tatooine?
*********************************

Stemming from my clone deduction, I'd say Shimi sold herself into slavery to escape who ever was using her as a lab rat. As for who's clone he is, I'd say it's Dooku, so Plapatine can do his "now destroy your father and take his place at my side" thing.

And of course, Anakin does so, which makes Luke's decision to do the opposite all that more powerful...

Amanamike
05-28-2002, 04:04 PM
Aikman, who ever said Emperor had a large midichorian count?? No one. From what we know, which we dont he might just be an average jedi.

darthvader92
05-28-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Amanamike
Here are my 2 cents again.


1. Anakin cant be a clone because clones grow ata faster rate, and Anakin is growing normally according to his age.

2. Mace Windu is definitely a bad guy. Just loom at him in every scene in the movie the way he looks nervous or guilty. And besides George Lucas had him in his original plans for the Prequels when he first thoughtup the idea of Star Wars and his Mace back then turned bad. So I am totally in the Mace=Sith mind set. here are some examples of what I saw.

- His look of "uh oh hes catching on to something" everytime yoda talks to him.

-His purple lightsaber. When you mix a blue lightsaber(jedi) with a red lightsaber(sith) you get purple.

- When Mace is around Yoda, Yoda always has clouded vision. He saw more when he was meditating alone until Mace walked in and it was cut off. When Yoda fought Dooku when Mace wasnt around he sensed the dark side in him. But when Maced is around he cant sense anything. Mace wanted to tell the senate that their vision is of no use right now. Why?? like Yoda said, "Give them the advantage that will"

- Mace knew that Yoda wanted Jango captured and brought before the coucil for questioning. So i believe this is why he wanted to kill him so bad in the arena. I know it looked like it was cause Jango tried to roast him, but that was just a ruse. Mace was hell bent on killing Jango...revenge??? Isnt that a sith trait to go after someone?? That looked like he wanted to kick his ***,he was relentless.

- Mace is the closest thing to Yoda and on the council has the second most power. Anakin said it himself. Who else could cloud Yodas vision. When Mace talks to Yoda, he always asks him, "what is it??" like he cant sense it too.

-also on another theory note, Dooku seemed stunned whn he saw the clone army. He had no idea what they were doing or where they came from. When he and his other leaders were watching the battle from the Holonet thing. He couldnt believe what he was seeing. So I believe Mace ordered the clones under Sifa Dyas name and Dooku was in charge of getting the other half of Palpatines plan up,with all the droid army. I believe Dooku was kept in the dark more than we think. Ive watched the movie 4 times now, and Im certain that there is more to Mace Windu than we are seeing. There are even little things about him in Episode 1 that seem weird too, like his quick to jump on finding outwho the mysterious sith was before Yoda could get a word in edge wise.


These are just my opions, but Im willing to bet money on Ep 3 that he is a bad guy and not what we see him as. He has to act good around everyone else or he would be seen as a sith. Its the same with Palpatine, he acts like he cares and wants no part of a war but accepts it as a burden and will change things back quick. Mace is just as deceptive in his speaches.


I'm with you on this Amanamike.I believe Mace is the sith.Everytime I watch the movie I see it clearer.

Amanamike
05-29-2002, 08:25 PM
I know thats what has happened to me. Everytime I watch it Iget drawn more and more to Maces looks and his actions. I know George has something up his sleeve no this character. I guesss we can party in 3 years when we are right!!!

Amanamike
05-29-2002, 08:30 PM
Also I just realized something else.... When Obi wan arrived, Taun We said she was expecting him. Expecting Obi Wan??? Why Obi Wan?? If Syfa dias was the orderer, why would he send Obi wan and tell them he was coming?? It had to be Mace cause he knows alot more of what Obi wan is doing all the time. Come on you guys wake up and smell the coffee, this is it Mace is a sith. I cant believe you dont see it. I guess Mace has clouded your vision as well hey??? See?? Get it he coulds our vision too, we cant see it. Its a sign. Quote me when Im right thats all I ask.

Jedi Clint
05-29-2002, 08:33 PM
LOL! Perhaps it is the sneaky way he didn't do anything to even remotely suggest that he had anything but the Jedi's (and Republic's) best interests at heart. That Mace......so good he's bad. :rolleyes:

They were expecting a representative from the Republic, a Jedi, because it was approximately the time the Kaminoans gave the Jedi and Republic (represented by Sifo-Dyas) for the completion of the order they placed 10 years earlier.

Rogue II
05-29-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Amanamike
Also I just realized something else.... When Obi wan arrived, Taun We said she was expecting him. Expecting Obi Wan??? Why Obi Wan?? If Syfa dias was the orderer, why would he send Obi wan and tell them he was coming?? It had to be Mace cause he knows alot more of what Obi wan is doing all the time. Come on you guys wake up and smell the coffee, this is it Mace is a sith. I cant believe you dont see it. I guess Mace has clouded your vision as well hey??? See?? Get it he coulds our vision too, we cant see it. Its a sign. Quote me when Im right thats all I ask.

One of us sees that seen the wrong way. I took it that Taun We was expecting someone(not necessarily Obi-Wan by name) from the Republic to inspect the army they were building. They aparently had been working on the army for 10 years without a visit from the customer, they assumed someone would come check up on their order. Remember, they were about to give up on them showing up.

Rogue II
05-29-2002, 08:39 PM
yeah, what Jedi Clint said.

Really, Mace Windu is a good guy.

Laserbrain
05-30-2002, 12:57 AM
I'm convinced Mace is a good guy til the end. The end remains to be seen, I expect him to be killed off by a teenaged Boba Fett in defense of the Republic and all that is right and just in the universe.

However....

Anybody see Unbreakable? Sam Jackson has played good guys that are revealed to be bad guys in more than one movie. It's almost his calling card, almost his "I'll be back."

But I still don't think Mace is a bad guy...

jawaboy
06-01-2002, 10:39 AM
That's too funny, Palpy raising Maul!

I can see him hiding in his Coruscant bachelor's pad with a black and red baby with horns trying to change diapers and get feedings in. I'm REALLY sure no one would have noticed him carusing around the senate halls with a Sith baby carriage.

"Aww, is that Sith baby yours? You must be sooo proud! Can I hold him?"

Darth-AWT
06-01-2002, 02:14 PM
I have read as much of this thread as I care to, so what I say here may have already been proposed. If so I appologize. Also many of my ideas are based on things that are not canon (at least I don't know if they are or not) so feel free to point out anything that conflicts with the films.

My opinion on the mystery of Sifo-Dyas and the turn of Dooku:

Dooku is a powerful Jedi-Knight, who does not like the way the Republic is degenerating.
Years before the events of Ep1 he begins study of the old Jedi ways. Being a very trusted Jedi, he is allowed access to all of the Jedi Archives. Deep in the Archives, hidden from all but a select few are the Sith Holocrons (maybe there is just one?). Dooku uses the Holocron often, seeking knowledge from ages past, Convienced that his power and wisdom of the Jedi Arts will not allow him to fall victim to the DarkSide.
Palpatine/Sidious being the all powerful SithLord he is, can sense these DarkSide tremors in the Force.

Skip ahead a few years:

Qui-Gon and Maul are killed, Palpatine/Sidious needs an apprentice, Dooku wants nothing more to do with Jedi. Dooku see's the same inaction in the Jedi Council that he has watched in the senate for many years. He leaves the Jedi, and returns to his homeworld. Gaining the rank (Count) and wealth of his family.
Palpatine/Sidious is quick to contact Dooku. He knows the Jedi Master has a great intrest in the Sith, so he makes him an offer.
Palpatine/Sidious will train Dooku in the Sith arts, and will also work to destroy the coruption in the senate. To do this he needs to create fear in the senate, he must make them give him more power, without making them suspiscous. Together they create a plan. They will set in motion events that will lead to war.
Palpatine/Sidious tells Dooku of Kamino, and how it could serve them, but it must be made so the Jedi do not find out about the plan. Dooku tells Palpatine/Sidious that he knows the perfect person to be the host of the Clone army, and that he (Dooku) can hinder the Jedi from finding out about the plan.

Dooku has no problem gaining access to the Jedi Archives, but unknown to him, someone has seen him sneaking in. Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas watches Dooku. He thinks the Ex-Jedi is up to somthing, and he wants to gain as much information as possible before going to the Council.
Dooku erases Kamino from the Archives. Knowing this would keep the planet from showing up for any Jedi missions. Next Dooku begins his hunt for the bounty hunter Jango Fett. Before he finds him he is confronted by Sifo-Dyes. Dooku can not let Sifo interfere, so he kills him.
Dooku reports to Palpatine/Sidious what happend. Palpatine/Sidious is pleased, and tells Dooku that he is now a Sith Lord, and names him Darth Tyranaus. Dooku finds Jango and introduces himself as Tyranaus. Once Jango agrees to payment, Dooku sets off for Kamino. Once there he introduces himself as Sifo-Dyas.
He also leaves specific instructions for the Kamino's not to contact anyone in the Republic, or the Jedi Order. And that someone would be along in the next few years to check on progress and take possesion of the army.

From here Dooku heads back to his homeworld to set up the next part of the plan.


I'm sure many of you can shhot this down with movie facts, so lets hear it :)

Croaker
06-02-2002, 08:38 AM
Darth-AWT -- sounds pretty good. The only real piece of speculation there is that Dooku killed Sifo. But that doesn't contradict what we know, so --cool.
Seems like the basic plot we've come to agree on (well some of us) with a little more detail.

Imperial Monarche
06-05-2002, 10:14 AM
I know this has probably been brought up before, but who is Master Jedi Sipher Diaz that was supposedly the one that ordered the Clone Army built? Was this name just used as a front for Sideous cuz Diaz died around the time the army was ordered to be built?

chris
06-05-2002, 10:59 AM
Sypho Dias was a jedi master who died around the time of TPM. I believe Ki-adi-mundi was the one who replaced him on the council. The fact that he was the one who supposedly ordered the army will probably be explained in E3, but the most likely explaination is that Sideous or Dooku just used his name as an alias to order th clones. Only time will tell...

LTBasker
06-05-2002, 11:39 AM
I'm guessing it could've been one of the "lost Jedi" who wasn't all too happy about Dooky's plan and so he ordered the Clones for the Jedi to use. I'm guessing that since Dooku seemed suprised about the Clones on Geonosis.

saladin
06-05-2002, 01:22 PM
I don't think he was on the council chris they never state that and Ki-Adi takes the place of another jedi that i can't think of his name but used 2 lihgtsabers and was preatty young. I belive he was a normal jedi but he was sid's master, some how.

2-1B
06-05-2002, 01:39 PM
Dooku was not surprised about the Clones, he acted that way as part of the plan.

I agree that Dias probably never sat on the Council, Mace, Obi-Wan and Yoda confirm he was a Master, but never that he was a Council member - Llama Su was under the impression that he was.

Imperial Monarche
06-05-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by LTBasker
I'm guessing it could've been one of the "lost Jedi" who wasn't all too happy about Dooky's plan and so he ordered the Clones for the Jedi to use. I'm guessing that since Dooku seemed suprised about the Clones on Geonosis.

Dooku was prolly surprised that they knew about the Clones and they were usin them. He knew about the Clone production because Jango Fett said he was recruited, 10 years before, by a man named Tyranis- Darth Tyranis which is Dooku as a Sith.

2-1B
06-05-2002, 03:26 PM
Why would he be surprised that Palps is using them? Jeez, he's working for Palps, propelling his plan . . .

darthvyn
06-05-2002, 03:33 PM
he knows about the clones ("the force is with us my lord, war has begun...") he was feigning ignorance to show to his separatist "allies" that he was on their side. he wasn't surprised that the jedi were using the clones, as palpatine says all is going according to his plan.

and it's spelled sifo

scruffziller
06-11-2002, 12:21 PM
The speculation that is going on in my SW circle is that who Sifo Dyas was to Kaminoians was Dooku who took his alias and placed the clone trooper order. There was a Dark Horse comic issue that was printed with a story with the real Sifo Dyas in it and I was told he somewhat looked like the Kaminoians, but that might have been Yarel Poof he saw too.

corporal AMF
07-08-2002, 06:35 PM
HMMM-.....I believe that Mace could be Sifo-Dyas also.......:
Remember Dooku refering to Mace: 'my old Jedi friend', 'surrender and your life will be spared'.....--> Mace knew that the clone army was on his way as well as Dooku.....Yoda fight Dooku, not Mace.

What I feel:
GL has a surprise with Mace, don't know what it is, but I believe Sam Jackson can really put some talent in character, but Mace still doesn't convince me of being a hero (like QuiGon, Obi or Yoda).

I know a lot of people here believes Mace will finish as a good guy, but remember GL said Ep III will be darker (maybe it means not only Anakin will be bad, but someone else).

I'm with Amanamike in this question, there's something behind Mace......

Lobito
07-09-2002, 05:32 PM
Wow, it took me a while but i finally did it.

There are lots of opinions here and from all that i've read (all 14 pages) here's my opinion. Ok here goes:

Sifo-Dyas.-

This name surely looks familiar with Sidious, but as far as we are concern, thats it, just a resemblance.

In the movie OB1 finds that a former Jedi named Sifo-Dyas apparently placed the order of building an army of clones.

When OB1 sends his message to Coruscant (before he fights and pursues Jango) he tells Yoda and Mace Windu about the events in Kamino. He also says that he thought Sifo-Dyas had died several years ago (10???) implying that whoever placed the order of building the clone army used the name of Sifo Dyas knowing that Sifo was already dead.

Mace Windu and Yoda (i dont know if the entire Council...i dont remember if they were in that scene) understand what OB1 is saying (implying) and make no comment about Sifo-Dyas being dead, but instead Mace comments that the Council never approved such an act, (not the exact words, but something like that). He then tells OB1 to bring Jango to Coruscant for further interrogation.

Jango Fett escapes to Genosia and OB1 follows him discovering Count Dooku behind all the mess. You guys wouldnt think OB1 thought Jango and Dooku were old friends?? Of course not, he knew then that the name Tyranus, (which Jango said to OB1 was the one that hired him) belonged to Count Dooku who at the same time was the one that used the name Sifo-Dyas to hire the Kaminoans to bulid the clone army.

I N T E R L U D E

So Boba Fett is 10 years old in AOTC...he then might be 30 something in ROTJ right??

E N D O F T H E I N T E R L U D E

When OB1 is giving or sending his report to the Council, Mace is skeptical about the info, but they decide to go to Genosia and find out the truth.

So FOR ME its all to clear what happened there. I dont think Sifo-Dyas was a sith...nor was he Palpatines mentor. He cant be becuase at the time Sifo Dyas died, there already existed 2 siths. Thats the same reason Mace Windu also CANT be a sith. "Always 2 there are" a master and apprentice...no more, no less, now i dont like arguing with Yoda...:D

After Maul died Count Dooku took his place as the apprentice (a powerful one, showing more powers than Maul ever had, although i liked best the way Maul used to fight), the interesting part would be to know excatly when this happened. The way Palpatine and Dooku met, and 2nd the way Dooku was seduced. THERE IS A SCENE RIGHT AFTER DOOKU KICKS ANI'S BUTT, THAT U CAN ACTUALLY SEE DOOKU FEELING SORRY FOR HIS ACTIONS, have u noticed this?? But then Yoda arrives and they start fighting again. But make no mistake...Dooku is a SITH LORD, he used his sith powers in the fight and we see him at the end of the movie with Darth Sidious, which BTW calls him Lord Tyranus.

Another interesting part of the movie, is when Anakin is fighting the Tuskens u can hear a voice saying "Anakin, no!!" I dont know if Anakin heard that voice, but i'm sure Yoda did. Still they dont talk about this further in the movie.

Now Palpatine IS Darth Sidious, there is no clone thing, the same goes for Anakin. Well, maybe they are if the Green Goblin is involved in this film...huh??? No, not Yoda!!! But the Green Goblin...u know...Spidey!!!

I dont think Qui Gon was the one that erased the data, as i stated before (did i???) Count Dooku was resposible for it, (probably will have something to do right after he was seduced by Palpatine)...the truth is out there...in almost 3 yrs. we will find out.

Peace my friends!!


:) :D

Rogue II
07-09-2002, 06:58 PM
Has anyone ever determined when Dooku left the Jedi?

I think Lobito's post is one of the most logical posts we've had in this thread. I thank you Lobito.

Lobito
07-09-2002, 07:14 PM
Hey you are welcome my friend, and thanks for taking the time to read my post !!:)

Jedi Knightrider
07-09-2002, 07:54 PM
It's very sound, except for the fact that I don't remember any time that anyone other than Sidious referred to Dooku as Tyranus, so Obi-Wan doesn't know that to be his "sith name." I don't think that he put together the fact that Jango went to Dooku's planet because Dooku was also the one who hired him. They must realize that something is up after Jango is DEFENDING Dooku, but not necessarily that Dooku is Tyranus. After all is said and done, they probably falsely "realize" that Dooku is the Dark Lord behind all this. Perhaps they believe that Tyranus and Dooku are the two sith lords at this point.

However, I still am not sure of Dooku's intentions. I am not convinced that he is pure evil. As I posted elsewhere -

To me, it seems like Dooku's motivations are the most unknown, and it seems that they could be one of three things:

1 - He really did join with Sidious intending to destroy the sith from the inside

2 - He really did join with Sidious intending to destroy the sith from the inside, BUT got too corrupted by the power and started to go along with the whole "take over the galaxy" shtick, OR,

3 - He was totally lying to Obi-Wan about destroying the sith, and only wanted his help in destroying Sidious, so HE could take over the galaxy, in keeping with the treacherous mentor/apprentice rivalry in the sith

Lobito
07-09-2002, 09:22 PM
However, I still am not sure of Dooku's intentions. I am not convinced that he is pure evil. As I posted elsewhere

I know what u mean my friend, as i posted earlier, Dooku seems a little sorry for beating Anakin and OB1, but the fact remains that he is a sith, although Vader was a sith also when he converted back to the light side. The answer is out there...in EP III.

:) :D

RooJay
07-10-2002, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by Rogue II
Has anyone ever determined when Dooku left the Jedi?

As stated in the film, Dooku left the order shortly after the Death of Qui-Gon.

RooJay
07-10-2002, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Knightrider
It's very sound, except for the fact that I don't remember any time that anyone other than Sidious referred to Dooku as Tyranus, so Obi-Wan doesn't know that to be his "sith name." I don't think that he put together the fact that Jango went to Dooku's planet because Dooku was also the one who hired him. They must realize that something is up after Jango is DEFENDING Dooku, but not necessarily that Dooku is Tyranus. After all is said and done, they probably falsely "realize" that Dooku is the Dark Lord behind all this. Perhaps they believe that Tyranus and Dooku are the two sith lords at this point.

True. It is also known to Obi Wan and the Jedi Council, that Jango is a Bounty Hunter and mercenary of some repute who is willing to sell his services to anyone who can meet his price. It's not entirely impossible to believe that the Jedi merely assumed he had taken a second, seperate job as Dooku's bodyguard; although this seems highly unlikely in my opinion.


However, I still am not sure of Dooku's intentions. I am not convinced that he is pure evil. As I posted elsewhere -

To me, it seems like Dooku's motivations are the most unknown, and it seems that they could be one of three things:

1 - He really did join with Sidious intending to destroy the sith from the inside

2 - He really did join with Sidious intending to destroy the sith from the inside, BUT got too corrupted by the power and started to go along with the whole "take over the galaxy" shtick, OR,

3 - He was totally lying to Obi-Wan about destroying the sith, and only wanted his help in destroying Sidious, so HE could take over the galaxy, in keeping with the treacherous mentor/apprentice rivalry in the sith

I'm betting on all of the above.

Rogue II
07-10-2002, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Lobito


I know what u mean my friend, as i posted earlier, Dooku seems a little sorry for beating Anakin and OB1, but the fact remains that he is a sith, although Vader was a sith also when he converted back to the light side. The answer is out there...in EP III.

:) :D

Ok, this might be a little out there:

Maybe before ATOC, Dooku used his powers to see the future. He is powerful and if he is part of the Dark Side, his visions won't be clouded. He knows what will happen to Anakin and that it could spell Dooku's own demise.

Jedi Knightrider
07-10-2002, 09:51 AM
You're right, that is out there. However, not out of the question. More likely, though, Sidious has forseen this, not Dooku. There's some speculation about this in Ep 3 (no spoilers) but, it seems to me that we're going to see Dooku reveal his true intentions, and if they truly are to destroy the sith from the inside, Anakin will probably brashly destroy this opportunity. The way I see it happening, I think Obi-Wan will begin to believe what Dooku told him about Sidious, and Anakin will come in too late to realize, Lightsaber swinging.

JediDBM
01-12-2003, 02:50 PM
I know that I did not spell that correctly, but in Attack of the clones, the cloners and Obi-Wan Kenobi talk about a Master Cypherdious, does anybody know anything about him? Was he somewhere else in the story line, a book or something? Or was that just a name that George Lucas came up with to add to this storyline?

QLD
01-12-2003, 03:16 PM
Master Syphallis is just a name that they used for the movie, that I am sure eventually, someone will focus an EU book around.

2-1B
01-12-2003, 03:18 PM
If anybody knows about Syphallis, its Quite-Ron Dong !

Jedi Clint
01-12-2003, 04:22 PM
This thread contains ample discussion of the issue.

The link below has a slightly more official take on the issue as well. http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15425

Pendo
03-23-2003, 06:13 AM
I think we can all agree that Sidious was Sifo-Dyas in Episode II, but we also know that Sifo-Dyas was once a real Jedi.

Do you think Sifo-Dyas really died and Sidious took his identity, or is it possible that Palpatine/Sidious WAS Sifo-Dyas, faked his death, and uses the force to block himself from the Jedi?

Your thoughts?

PENDO!

Anakin2121
03-23-2003, 07:56 AM
I'm not sure who he was -- but when Obi-Wan mentioned him, Yoda and Mace Windu gave each other a concerned look.
If I remember correctly, earlier drafts of the script named him Sido-Dyas -- and that is most obviously a "Stretching" of the name Sidious. If you asked me, anyway. :)

scruffziller
03-23-2003, 09:22 AM
I think Palpy just used his name because obviously it couldn't be him unless he changed his looks somehow. But I'm sure Palpy has been in politics a while in which lots of people knew they coexisted. Because really how would the Kaminoans really know any better. Kind of like politicians using dead peoples names to cast votes. Maybe Sifo Dyas was a Jedi becoming a darksider, dies at about the time of EPS 1 (which seems a little convenient :eek: )inhabits senator Palpy or maybe Palpy is a clone of the original and the darkside essense is inhabiting his body. We know that Palpy has had himself cloned many times. It is a little EU there but who knows.

dr_evazan22
03-23-2003, 05:57 PM
My thinking is that it was Dooku who acted as Sifo Dyas to place the clone order. How would the Kaminoans know it wasn't really Dyas but Dooku? (Although Lama Su does say that Sifo was a member of the JC) Afterall, it was Dooku/Tyrannus who hired Jango.

That time frame is about the same as Dooku's leaving the Jedi, also. And he probably changed the records at the library before he left.

Kidhuman
03-23-2003, 06:18 PM
All the Kamino's know ids what they were told. They filled an order placed by Sifo-Dias. Lama-Su is the only one who could make the connection. I believe that Sidious/Palpy is Sifo-Dias. They could have used his name for all we know. Anyway just my 3 cents

JediTricks
03-23-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by dr_evazan22
My thinking is that it was Dooku who acted as Sifo Dyas to place the clone order. How would the Kaminoans know it wasn't really Dyas but Dooku? (Although Lama Su does say that Sifo was a member of the JC) Afterall, it was Dooku/Tyrannus who hired Jango.

That time frame is about the same as Dooku's leaving the Jedi, also. And he probably changed the records at the library before he left. That's my take on this as well. I figure that Sifo Dyas was a Jedi who was either killed by Dooku or died mysteriously before the Kaminoans' timeline, and after erasing evidence of his plans, Dooku pretended to be him when he first visited the cloners. Of course, this gets a little confusing when you take into account the Sith code of there being only 2 because when the order was initially placed, Sidious' apprentice was Maul, not Tyranus. But I'm sure that's just a clerical error. ;)

I wish Lucas had given more OR less of this Sifo Dyas issue during Ep 2 - "more" to give the mystery more clues and more weight to the overall story, or "less" to simply not make it such a sore thumb when it stands out in the already-complicated plot.

Darth Trymybestus
03-24-2003, 04:09 PM
I think this issue is pretty simple really. Sifo-Dyas was obviously a Jedi and when he died, Dooku or Sidious ordered the Clone Army in his name. And 20 plus years later the Army shot up a Sandcrawler with deadly accuracy! :)

mini-rock
03-24-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
I think we can all agree that Sidious was Sifo-Dyas in Episode II, but we also know that Sifo-Dyas was once a real Jedi.

Do you think Sifo-Dyas really died and Sidious took his identity, or is it possible that Palpatine/Sidious WAS Sifo-Dyas, faked his death, and uses the force to block himself from the Jedi?

Your thoughts?

PENDO!

I think Sideous pretended to be Sifo-Dyas and ordered the Clone Army from the Kaminoans, and had Tyrannus/Dooku recruit Jango. Now whether or not Sideous killed Sifo-Dyas may not be revealed at all, but I think he was already using Dooku while he was still a Jedi, even while Maul was still his apprentice, and had Dooku do all he needed before leaving the Jedi Order.:)

DarthChuckMc
03-24-2003, 09:11 PM
My money is on Dooku posing as Syfo-Dyas.
Here's how I picture it going down.

Dooku: "Greetings. I am Jedi Master Syfo Dyas from the Jedi Council on Coruscant. The council has sent me to request the creation of a Clone Army for the Republic. We will provide a man to use as the template for the cloning process."

After the schmoozing, Dooku/Syfo says: "Expect my return to check on the progress of the army."

Taun We said in AOTC "We were beginning to think that you weren't going to come."

They were expecting someone, but Dooku/Syfo never said WHEN he would be back, just to expect his return to check their progress.

After placing the order, Dooku returns to Coruscant, erases Kamino from the Archives (or before he left), and joins Sideous to begin training in the ways of the Darkside.

TheDarthVader
03-25-2003, 12:06 PM
Sounds good to me. I also believe Dooku is Syfo-Dyas. Palpatine wanted Obi-Wan to find the Kamino saber dart so that he would go there so the Kaminoians would not suspect anything was wrong (because a jedi had not been back to check up on the progress). Can't figure out why Dooku wouldn't go back to check on things...ah! to pose as though syfo-dyas was dead...because then kenobi might have been able to figure out that Syfo-Dyas was Dooku.