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Jonna
05-17-2002, 10:13 AM
What was that about? :crazed:

Did you notice things in AOTC that seemed to make no sense??? Not to bash the film or anything, but I noticed some odd things and was wondering if anyone else did also.

When Amidala is fighting the 4-eyed cat and it scratched her back, what the hell happend to the bottom of her shirt??? There were claw marks strait through her shirt, which showed where the contact was, but then why would pieces of her shirt be missing at all and at a different place no less. Not to complain, I have no problem with a little flesh. It just struck me as odd.:D

Croaker
05-17-2002, 11:42 AM
Yeah, all of a sudden her sleeve was gone!

Jonna
05-17-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Croaker
Yeah, all of a sudden her sleeve was gone!

Yes, my girlfriend caught the the sleave part but I didn't see it. She started laughing and saying "Oops there goes my shirt, oops there goes my sleave, oops there goes my pants"!!!!!:crazed: :crazed:

Beast
05-17-2002, 11:57 AM
The Nexu has 3 claws on each paw, 2 of the claws scratched her back, the other 1 only snagged part of her shirt, and ripped it off as he fell back. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

pthfnder89
05-17-2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The Nexu has 3 claws on each paw, 2 of the claws scratched her back, the other 1 only snagged part of her shirt, and ripped it off as he fell back. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

This may not count but I just thought it was funny how easily Padme jumped onto the Reek. I can accept Anakin and Obi Wan doing it easily (although the special effect still looked fake) but it seemed like Padme just lept off of a twenty foot pillar and *poof* she lands sitting perfectly behind Anakin without even a grunt. I really laughed at that. :)

Jonna
05-17-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by pthfnder89


This may not count but I just thought it was funny how easily Padme jumped onto the Reek. I can accept Anakin and Obi Wan doing it easily (although the special effect still looked fake) but it seemed like Padme just lept off of a twenty foot pillar and *poof* she lands sitting perfectly behind Anakin without even a grunt. I really laughed at that. :)

I just cringed when she did that. I was thinking how much it would hurt me.:frus:

greedo
05-17-2002, 12:55 PM
She may not be able to have children now for a couple of episodes..lol

It will take the force to get her prego...

Pendo
05-17-2002, 01:08 PM
Maybe Anakin used the force to help her land safely on the Reek.

PENDO!

bobafett07728
05-17-2002, 01:13 PM
I thought it was utterly hillarious when she fell out of the Republic Cruiser, and laid on the ground motionless. The Clone Trooper comes over and asks if she's OK. . .and POOF. . .she gets right up, says "Yes", and runs off with the Trooper. UH. . .What the heck was that?

Jonna
05-17-2002, 01:20 PM
That was GREAT! You gotta love SW acting.

QLD
05-17-2002, 01:24 PM
But sand is soooooo soft and comfy! :D

JEDIpartner
05-17-2002, 03:08 PM
She was busy drying off... like she did on Naboo when she was a kid!

JEDIpartner
05-17-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Jonna
Did you notice things in AOTC that seemed to make no sense???

There are plenty of things in MOST movies that make no sense. Do you get out much? :crazed: Hahahaaaa... Just kidding.

Seriously though... who cares? It's a movie. Don't concern yourself with such details. Sit back, relax and enjoy the show! :happy:

Jonna
05-17-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr


There are plenty of things in MOST movies that make no sense. Do you get out much? :crazed: Hahahaaaa... Just kidding.

Seriously though... who cares? It's a movie. Don't concern yourself with such details. :

Acctually I find it amusing to notice all the details and little glitches in movies. There is no need to have additude. It is just my opinion and if it bothers you, don't read it.:p

JEDIpartner
05-17-2002, 03:57 PM
It doesn't bother me... note the smilies...! :D

Jonna
05-17-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by JEDIpartnr
It doesn't bother me... note the smilies...! :D

WORDS HURT!!!!!:cry:

Now look what you've done! My arm is severed!!!:eek:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
05-17-2002, 04:47 PM
Was the "Are you okay?" "Yes!" part a joke? Everyone laughed, I didn't think it was that funny.

Jonna
05-17-2002, 04:51 PM
It was not the line that was funny, but the fact that she seemed either hurt or unconscious in one scene and in the next was all ready to go and get some Snoopy Snow Cones.

Battle Droid
05-17-2002, 05:46 PM
Shouldn't he have ran into the Super Battle Droids when he was going thru the tunnel?

Unless there were alot of tunnels or a secret passage way that the Droids came thru.

Beast
05-17-2002, 05:50 PM
The Geonosian hives, are similar to the giant ant hill formations that can be found in Africa. They have criss crossing passages and tunnels all over the place. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

artdoesart
05-17-2002, 05:53 PM
not sure if this is illogical......

but i thought having anakin riding the [dinosaur] turtle in the grass fields on naboo with padme was a bit ridiculous. not only did it look fake as hell, it was pointless.. sometimes i think lucas just does stuff because he can.. not really giving it any thought or not.. i mean there are much more simplier ways for anakin to roll in the hay with padme then going through that CG blunder..

but don't get me wrong i loved the movie.. but i am being fair.. i actually saw a lot of illogical parts however, the good far exceded the bad...

Battle Droid
05-17-2002, 05:54 PM
I thought he might could've sensed them coming as well.

artdoesart
05-17-2002, 05:55 PM
test

DeadEye
05-17-2002, 05:57 PM
I doubt he could have sensed it...life creates the Force...and droids are not alive. ;)

Battle Droid
05-17-2002, 05:59 PM
Well sensed thier movement or whatever.

RooJay
05-17-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Jonna
It was not the line that was funny, but the fact that she seemed either hurt or unconscious in one scene and in the next was all ready to go and get some Snoopy Snow Cones.
Maybe she woke up.

RooJay
05-17-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by artdoesart
not sure if this is illogical......

but i thought having anakin riding the [dinosaur] turtle in the grass fields on naboo with padme was a bit ridiculous. not only did it look fake as hell, it was pointless.. sometimes i think lucas just does stuff because he can.. not really giving it any thought or not.. i mean there are much more simplier ways for anakin to roll in the hay with padme then going through that CG blunder..

but don't get me wrong i loved the movie.. but i am being fair.. i actually saw a lot of illogical parts however, the good far exceded the bad...
I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about that scene. It looked quite good to me. I've seen much, MUCH worse CG effects in movies that no one seemed to mind as much. I thought it turned out looking pretty good.

Dryanta
05-17-2002, 07:27 PM
The part of the scene where Padme get up that bothered me is see said" We need to get to that Hanger"
How did she know they went to hanger.Judgeing by the length of the ride she couldn't see it.I enjoyed the movie and could really care less though.It's Str Wars guys!!!

tagmac
05-17-2002, 07:44 PM
I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about that scene. It looked quite good to me. I've seen much, MUCH worse CG effects in movies that no one seemed to mind as much. I thought it turned out looking pretty good.

Yeah, like the Scorpion King at the end of "The Mummy Returns." Worst CGI I've ever seen in years.

As for that scene, I don't think it was a case of Lucas overdoing CGI. Like most guys, Anakin was trying to impress Padme by climbing on the beasts back, then pretending to get hurt. It is to remind us that Anakin is still human, and still just a kid in love.

Sith Vicious
05-17-2002, 08:04 PM
Personally, I find Jar Jar ending up as a senator to be completely nonsensical. Yes, he was a war hero, but give me a break.

The threepio/Owen Lars connection bugs me also. I know protocol droids are common in the SW universe, and ANH took place a long time after AOTC, but I wish Lucas would leave out the unneccessary previous connections. I guess I wouldn't recognize my first car if I saw it 20 years later, but how could you forget that threepio voice?

Beast
05-17-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Sith Vicious
The threepio/Owen Lars connection bugs me also. I know protocol droids are common in the SW universe, and ANH took place a long time after AOTC, but I wish Lucas would leave out the unneccessary previous connections. I guess I wouldn't recognize my first car if I saw it 20 years later, but how could you forget that threepio voice?
That's most likely a standard male translator droid voice. So, alot of them probably sound alike. Except of course, TC-14 who was programmed with a feminine voice. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

chewie
05-17-2002, 08:14 PM
The thing I found most lacking in the movie was the fact that they showed ALL that clone creation stuff, but absolutely no mention or brief glimpse of any shipyards, construction, or training areas with the many vehicles and starships the clones used. Its implied (I'm assuming), but to see all that clone stuff, and not see hide nor hair of any of the Republic armory until it comes crashing down into the arena is a bit off-putting to me.

Sith Vicious
05-17-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

That's most likely a standard male translator droid voice. So, alot of them probably sound alike. Except of course, TC-14 who was programmed with a feminine voice. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

It's possible, although we don't really have enough information in the movies to tell either way. Like I said there are plenty of reasons why Owen doesn't recognize threepio, or Obi-Wan doesn't recognize R2 in ANH, but I still find it bothersome.

Sith Vicious
05-17-2002, 08:21 PM
I also found the senate scene a bit illogical/confusing. Did it only take one senator's motion to give Palpatine his emergency powers, or had some kind of vote just taken place? If it only took one senator, that seems a bit unbelievable.

Beast
05-17-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Sith Vicious
I also found the senate scene a bit illogical/confusing. Did it only take one senator's motion to give Palpatine his emergency powers, or had some kind of vote just taken place? If it only took one senator, that seems a bit unbelievable.
No, Jar Jar Binks was serving as the voice for Padme and Naboo while she was gone. Naboo is well respected, and had previously been against the Military Creation Act. Once Jar Jar asked that emergancy powers be given to Palpy during the crisis..most of the Senate agreed. Not to mention, alot of the Senators that were against the Military Creation Act, were absent from the Senate, due to the fact they had left the Republic to join Count Dooku and the Sepratists. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Sith Vicious
05-17-2002, 08:37 PM
I guess that makes sense, but it didn't look like anything formal took place. Just several groups of senators applauding Jar Jar's speech and then a cut to Mace and Yoda. I would've liked to see some kind of vote take place.

Beast
05-17-2002, 08:50 PM
There is a voting panal in the senate box, so they most likely voted yes as they were cheering the speech. Or voted no, when they were booing it. It's not like they have to have each Senate box declare "Yea" or "Nay". :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
05-17-2002, 09:01 PM
How long would that take? Jeez, I sat down to watch Clinton's impeachment vote and the balloting took forever.
Now multiply that by thousands and . . . well, it makes sense they would use electronic voting. It does seem a bit rushed, but it gets the point across. Remember, they had already been debating the separatist / army of the republic before the events on screen. Frankly, I think the "voting" in AOTC is more plausible than the vote to oust Valorum in TPM. :)

Jason B
05-17-2002, 09:19 PM
the only thing i didnt really like is that Pame seemed to forget the she had deep slices in her back. think about it. you just got sliced in the back by a lion. (i know, that creature was bigger than a lion.) then, you fall out of a helicopter, and you land on your back, and roll for a while. do you know how much sand would get into the wound, and how painful it would be? and she just gets up, and runs away. oh well, its just a movie. :D

mabudonicus
05-17-2002, 10:10 PM
I thought that the way they completely cut out any mention of "medicloriansts" was pretty odd...... I mean, they were a pretty important deal, right?? I was waiting for mace or yoda to say the word when they were discussing their waning force powers, you know, I feel like I only have HALF of my original complement of MIDACLEERAYANS... I can't BELIEVE gl left them out!!!!

SithDroid
05-17-2002, 10:41 PM
Please don't bring them up, they DESERVE to not be mentioned.

The only part I didn't like was how Anakin tells Padme that he killed all the Tusken Raiders including the women and children. Nothing turns women on more than a killer. :D It just didn't make sense.

stevenmh
05-17-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
The only part I didn't like was how Anakin tells Padme that he killed all the Tusken Raiders including the women and children. Nothing turns women on more than a killer. :D It just didn't make sense.

I agree. One question I found myself asking during the movie...what exactly is it that Padme finds so irresistable in Anakin....the whining, the mood swings, or the outbursts of rage? Doesn't seem like the type of guy a woman falls for, especially not one with the leadership qualities that Padme showed in EPI. It almost seemed like her maturity level decreased with 10 years of age.

Other than that, I didn't like the way Dooku had so much mouth. Nice thing about Maul was that he just got down to business without wasting any time talking about it. You pull out your lightsaber and ignite it, and there's not too many ways it can be taken. But for some reason Dooku felt it necessary to announce the lightsaber duel with Yoda before getting down to it. Seemed kind of goofy. I also didn't understand why he blabbed to Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious.

chewie
05-17-2002, 11:14 PM
Heheheh. Yeah Dooku is a talker, isn't he? :)

The explanation to Obi-Wan was done to convince Obi-Wan further that nothing was wrong with the Republic. By telling the truth to Obi, he knew that it would not be accepted, and even more outright rejected as a thought than if he had never brought it up. Now he did lie a bit in his speech to Obi-Wan, such as saying that Jango wasn't on Geonosis. He also failed to mention to Obi that he too was a sith dark lord in league with Sidious. :)

The little bit of exposition at the end with Yoda apparently was Dooku's way of honoring Yoda's power and experience by letting him know what he was about to do.

Beast
05-17-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by chewie
Heheheh. Yeah Dooku is a talker, isn't he? :)

The explanation to Obi-Wan was done to convince Obi-Wan further that nothing was wrong with the Republic. By telling the truth to Obi, he knew that it would not be accepted, and even more outright rejected as a thought than if he had never brought it up. Now he did lie a bit in his speech to Obi-Wan, such as saying that Jango wasn't on Geonosis. He also failed to mention to Obi that he too was a sith dark lord in league with Sidious. :)

The little bit of exposition at the end with Yoda apparently was Dooku's way of honoring Yoda's power and experience by letting him know what he was about to do.
The explination is there, so incase Obi-Wan survives, he will go run and tell the Jedi Council. And they are gonna start keeping an eye on the senate at the end of E2. So, Palpatine can always reveal that to the Senate sometime in E3, saying that the Jedi have been spying on the Senate, and maybe even manipulating the Senate. Using that to further discredit them, and perhaps even cause the Senate to fear and hate the Jedi. Just another cog in the evil plan. :)

I thought Dooku and Yoda talking so much, and showing each other up with their powers was because Dooku was once Yoda's Padawan. He's trying to show up the old man with his powers, and being really cocky about it. Of course Yoda just shrugs it off and shows him, that while Dooku is stronger then before, and filled with the Dark Side, he's not as powerful as ole Yoda. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

2-1B
05-17-2002, 11:53 PM
Vader was pretty mouthy too. ;)


I don't get the fascination with Anakin as a "killer". I thought it was well done, I thought the audience would be shocked yet sympathetic because of the circumstances. I know I would be tempted to kill my mother's torturers / killers after she died in my arms.

Padme falling for a killer?
I saw it as Padme seeing his heartache and feeling sympathy for him. She wasn't at the camp, she only heard his angry confession. And she just watched him bring back his dead mother's body.

I guess GL didn't dumb down the film enough. :rolleyes:

chewie
05-18-2002, 12:03 AM
Showing Anakin getting twisted enough to become Darth Vader is definitely tough for a kid's movie. Easing up on Anakin's motivations probably would have been a bad idea and made it seem as though he became a bad guy for little reason other than being truly evil. Showing a vengeful rage flowing within him at least makes him more human/understandable than the likes of Dooku and Palpatine who have no drive other than the search for more power.

Padme falling for such a wacky guy isn't that odd. Why do earth bound women stay with men who beat them? Convicted murderers have groupie women marry them while they're in prison. Cult leaders or other crazy members of earthly society seem to attract far more women than many like to think. I guess its that whole 'bad boy' thing.

Dexter
05-18-2002, 12:32 AM
Anakin is a ruthless, evil, child-killing murderer. I was SHOCKED that Padmie came over to comfort him, when she should have been repulsed. There's a huge difference between going after the male warrior Tusken Raiders, and going after their frail little motherly females. THEN, think about the difference between going after those weak women and their little children, who are happily playing with their Masiffs at the camp. For Anakin to slice and dice the children was sick and twisted and evil, regardless of any circumstances.

I'm surprised when Yoda found out about Anakin's little escapade he didn't kick his *** into oblivion.:evil:

Jedi Clint
05-18-2002, 12:52 AM
That camp of Raiders won't be murdering and slaughtering innocent moister farming men, women, and children any more.

2-1B
05-18-2002, 12:55 AM
I would have been tempted to kill the women too for allowing my mother to be tortured that way.


That camp of Raiders won't be murdering and slaughtering innocent moister farming men, women, and children any more.

EXACTLY. I thought it was established that the Tuskens are pretty bad folks to begin with, which would make Anakin's plight more relatable and tragic. I'm surprised that it's being seen as a black-and-white area of morality. :)

Battle Droid
05-18-2002, 12:58 AM
Little off subject, but were there any Bantha's at the Tusken Camp? I don't remember seeing any.

snakeplkn
05-18-2002, 01:12 AM
Illogic seems to have become Lucas' strong points considering the huge plot holes created by Episode I and II. Sure the original 3 had their share of problems, but nothing on the magnitude of present day.

---Padme falling in love with Anakin. Here is a young, smart, beautiful Senator, and the man she falls in love with is a whiner, throws tantrums, engages in genocide, and was reintroduced to him only a couple weeks ago. Based on Anakin's actions, there is nothing that should attract any "normal" woman.

---Death Star. Like in another thread, I don't understand why Darth Sidious doesn't immediately start building the Death Star. Since he and Count Dooku have already thousands of systems that hate the republic in their pockets, the resources are already at their disposal. Forget having to manipulate everyone, get the Death Star up and running and immediately begin destroying all opposition.

---Jedi intervention. Why do the Jedi come to save Obi-Wan knowing full well they are outmanned and outgunned. Mace Windu says himself that the Jedi cannot fight a war, yet here they go off against thousands of battle droids. It's a suicide mission that doesn't have to be. It would make more sense if not only the Clone Army arrived at the same time, but at least some of the Republic security forces.

---Yoda. Didn't say Yoda say "size matters not" but he has a hard time stopping the pillar that would crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. Like someone else mentioned, wouldn't it be smart to throw the pillar at Dooku's ship.

---Jango Fett. Like mentioned in another thread, Jango decides to jump down into the midst of the battle for no apparent reason. Wouldn't it be easier to stay up top and just snipe Jedi? I think Jango was really wasted. He should have killed several more Jedi making his death more meaningful.

---Padme's 2nd assassination attempt. If a droid can create a hole in the window for insects to get in, why not just throw another bomb and blow the bedroom sky high?

---Owen Lars and C-3PO. How many protocol droids do you think Owen will ever see living on Tatooine?

---Radar. Do both Coruscant and Geonosis lack systems to determine incoming ships? Obi-Wan just waltzes into Geonosis with zero opposition while Count Dooku uses the same ship he escaped with to enter Coruscant. Donít you think after Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all saw Dookuís ship leave, there would be a galaxy wide APB for his ship? It would as if Osama Bin Laden escaped from Afghanistan on his own personal jet and decided to land in Washington, D.C.

I could go on and on. The other movies have flaws, but not so glaring as to notice immediately. As for this rationale, "it's only a movie," I find that to be the worst excuse. I know it's only a movie, that's why I want to be entertained instead of being frustrated. Flaws, inconsistencies, and mistakes should not be ignored just because it's a Star Wars movie. The potential for greatness was squandered. All that was needed was a stronger script with better elements, watching out for continuity, and more developed characterizations.

Snake Plissken
"Call me Snake"

Obi-Wan-A-Bi
05-18-2002, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by snakeplkn
Illogic seems to have become Lucas' strong points considering the huge plot holes created by Episode I and II. Sure the original 3 had their share of problems, but nothing on the magnitude of present day.

---Padme falling in love with Anakin. Here is a young, smart, beautiful Senator, and the man she falls in love with is a whiner, throws tantrums, engages in genocide, and was reintroduced to him only a couple weeks ago. Based on Anakin's actions, there is nothing that should attract any "normal" woman.


I completely DISAGREE! I have seen many women simpathise with men who are opposites. They feel they can help/comfort them. It's very common. That's why the divorce rate is 50%+, because a lot of people make a lot of bad decitions out of "love". I'm sure she sees a lot of the young Anakin in him too.



---Death Star. Like in another thread, I don't understand why Darth Sidious doesn't immediately start building the Death Star. Since he and Count Dooku have already thousands of systems that hate the republic in their pockets, the resources are already at their disposal. Forget having to manipulate everyone, get the Death Star up and running and immediately begin destroying all opposition.


He just got the plans at the end of EPII, & I'm sure it will take time and resources to actually finnish it, It will probably be under construction in EPIII.



---Jedi intervention. Why do the Jedi come to save Obi-Wan knowing full well they are outmanned and outgunned. Mace Windu says himself that the Jedi cannot fight a war, yet here they go off against thousands of battle droids. It's a suicide mission that doesn't have to be. It would make more sense if not only the Clone Army arrived at the same time, but at least some of the Republic security forces.


Why do firefighters enter a burning building just to save your butt? Because that's what they have been pushed to do by this war. They knew thier best shot at defeating dooku & saving Obi-Wan was to defend themselves, they didn't go there to fight a war, there just happend to be one there when they arrived.


---Yoda. Didn't say Yoda say "size matters not" but he has a hard time stopping the pillar that would crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. Like someone else mentioned, wouldn't it be smart to throw the pillar at Dooku's ship.


He was drained from the fight, that's why he looked fatigued when he stopped it. But I agree, he should have thrown it on his ship, maybe the ship would have exploded. ;)



---Jango Fett. Like mentioned in another thread, Jango decides to jump down into the midst of the battle for no apparent reason. Wouldn't it be easier to stay up top and just snipe Jedi? I think Jango was really wasted. He should have killed several more Jedi making his death more meaningful.


Obviously Jango is not very smart, lost his head. ;)
Look at Anakin, he keeps disobeying Obi-Wan, that is really stupid to me.



---Padme's 2nd assassination attempt. If a droid can create a hole in the window for insects to get in, why not just throw another bomb and blow the bedroom sky high?


Good point, but that's what you get for (Jango) hiring a stupid assasin.



---Owen Lars and C-3PO. How many protocol droids do you think Owen will ever see living on Tatooine?


He probably never really paid attention since he was not really his anyway, 3Po belonged to Shmi.
But I agree that it's a big coincidence. :(



---Radar. Do both Coruscant and Geonosis lack systems to determine incoming ships? Obi-Wan just waltzes into Geonosis with zero opposition while Count Dooku uses the same ship he escaped with to enter Coruscant. Donít you think after Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all saw Dookuís ship leave, there would be a galaxy wide APB for his ship? It would as if Osama Bin Laden escaped from Afghanistan on his own personal jet and decided to land in Washington, D.C.


Could be banned just like cloned soldiers were, with all that traffic it would be hard to keep up with it all, may he used the force to block it. :)



I could go on and on. The other movies have flaws, but not so glaring as to notice immediately. As for this rationale, "it's only a movie," I find that to be the worst excuse. I know it's only a movie, that's why I want to be entertained instead of being frustrated. Flaws, inconsistencies, and mistakes should not be ignored just because it's a Star Wars movie. The potential for greatness was squandered. All that was needed was a stronger script with better elements, watching out for continuity, and more developed characterizations.

Snake Plissken
"Call me Snake"


I think Yoda acted the most out of charactor. Commanding armies, flipping all around at the end. :)

I would have thought Jango would have hidden a little better too, Obi-Wan was let right to him (after he found the planet, that is).

Obi-Don
05-18-2002, 06:01 AM
All in all its just some of GL's great editing. There will always be parts that are lefted out that leave you wondering. I liked the movie and feel it is the best so far.l

JediTricks
05-18-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by bobafett07728
I thought it was utterly hillarious when she fell out of the Republic Cruiser, and laid on the ground motionless. The Clone Trooper comes over and asks if she's OK. . .and POOF. . .she gets right up, says "Yes", and runs off with the Trooper. UH. . .What the heck was that? Yeah, that one is a very "illogical" scene for me too! In fact, the whole audience I saw it with made a lot of noises about that - totally out of left field, "I'm gonna lie here for no reason looking dead till someone walks up to me and asks how I'm doing".

Originally posted by Jonna
It was not the line that was funny, but the fact that she seemed either hurt or unconscious in one scene and in the next was all ready to go and get some Snoopy Snow Cones. An accurate description of how that scene played out, but is it really what Lucas had in mind?

BTW, I think it's kinda neat that you can still buy the Snoopy Snowcone Maker at TRU. That's the sign of a lasting "toy". ;)

---

Snake, buddy, you totally took it to the hoop on that post! (post 51 (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=87354#post87354)) Except for the bit about the Death Star (IMO, Palpy wanted to manipulate the public will into defeated weakness so they wouldn't fight back as hard), I think you got so much of the major stuff that was in my mind. Jango jumping into battle for no reason, what was that? Snake, that was an awesome post, I know a lot of folks will probably dump on you for it, but that was one of the most well-executed posts I've read in a while.

chewie
05-19-2002, 11:04 PM
A point about the pillar that Yoda had to hold up. If it was so hard for him to hold up with the force (with the obvious look of straining/concentration on his face), why not just grab the much less heavy fallen jedi and jerk them out of the way instead of trying to lift the pillar? Or even force push/pull the two out of the way.

Beast
05-19-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by chewie
A point about the pillar that Yoda had to hold up. If it was so hard for him to hold up with the force (with the obvious look of straining/concentration on his face), why not just grab the much less heavy fallen jedi and jerk them out of the way instead of trying to lift the pillar? Or even force push/pull the two out of the way.
It would have been even harder or impossible for him to split his concentration on grabbing the 2 Jedi's with the force and pulling them out from under the pillar before it dropped. As it was he only bearly caught the pillar in time anyway. His mind most likely just jumped to the thing falling. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 02:36 AM
After Padme gets swiped, you can see the shred of her shirt fluttering to the ground on the left side of the screen.

Thousands of ships fly into Coruscant each day. Whose going to notice one more? Besides, if you think about it, he had clearance from Chancellor Palpatine to land. Duh.

Mace and the other Jedi didn't know the battle droids were activated, only that there was a factory. If somebody told you that a tank factory was a hideout for a drug cartel, you wouldn't assume the cartel had a full armored calvary prepped to fight you. mace was prepared to fight Geonosians, who as he stated "aren't warriors"

Why would Owen recognize a piece of machinery that was hanging around the farm 20+ years ago? Do you remember a toaster you had twenty years ago? And with a different color scheme to boot.

Jango got overconfident after he took out Coleman Trebor and thought Jedi aren't so tough. Plus he was ticked that Mace had a saber to his throat. He clearly wasn't thinking...

2-1B
05-20-2002, 02:51 AM
At first I thought there was an issue with the Clone who hopped off with Anakin and Obi-Wan . . . where'd he go? Then I realized he fell off the platform.

Jango's such a dork, he should have left to find another bounty when things heated up. But he just HAD to hold that grudge . . .

snakeplkn
05-20-2002, 07:13 AM
I don't subscribe to equating C-3PO as a toaster, car or what have you. I think I would I remember if I had a toaster my stepmother had which could talk, do chores, make toast for me, and had a unique name like ToasterMaster-1054-B. Then if my stepbrother took away the ToasterMaster-1054-B for 20 years, I probably would forget it after awhile. But if I had happened to see it again at someone's garage sale, even if it's colour went from gray to gold, I would remember the previous toaster to some degree, especially if it called itself the same name.

My grandparents can still list every car they have ever owned, from the Model T onwards. Selective memory theory does not hold for me. Now if Obi-Wan erases some of Owen and Beru's memory, that will be a different story.

Snake Plissken
"Call me Snake"

leenovak
05-20-2002, 09:01 AM
Forgive me if this was brought up already, but reading this last page reminded me of it. About Padme falling off the gunship and all. Now, not only is it ridiculous she laid there motionless until the trooper came to her, but what does she say? She says "We have to get to that hangar!"

Now, after she fell, that ship chased Dooku's speeder for a long time....at a high rate of speed, they were miles and miles away from her...how does she know where they went?? Is she psychic?

Also, when her and Anakin receive the message from Obi-Wan, and they're in Padme's ship on tatooine. When Obi-Wan says "retransmit this message to Coruscant", she simply reaches over and presses one button. Then, to bring up a map, she presses the same exact button. Since when did they install the "miracle-working do everything" button on these ships? Why didn't she just reach over and press the "stop Dooku and Sidious' evil plan to destroy the Republic" button?

Last thing, whoever Jedi Sydo-Dyas is/was he's going to kick the Kamino's butt. He goes through all the secrecy of going there to order the army, erasing the system from the Jedi archives and the Kaminos just go and spill their guts about the whole plan to the first person that walks in the door? What's with that? Perhaps a simple "Greetings sir, what brings you here?" from Taun We when Obi-Wan lands would have been appropriate.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The Nexu has 3 claws on each paw, 2 of the claws scratched her back, the other 1 only snagged part of her shirt, and ripped it off as he fell back. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Are you watching that closely, or is this information in "extraneous" materials, or do you just make this stuff up? ;)

stillakid
05-20-2002, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

I guess GL didn't dumb down the film enough. :rolleyes:

Exactly the opposite with the prequels. In the interim between the OT and the Prequels, I think GL attended the Joel Schumacher school of beat-the-audience-over-the-head filmmaking. He simply doesn't trust that anyone will get subtlety and small nuances of character so he hits us with blunt hammer blows in order to get their individual points-of-view across. Anakin's "fall" to the darkside could have been a gradual process, led by Sidious. Instead, it's a process punctuated by wide mood swings and unmotivated rantings. Why is GL doing this? He has kids now and he doesn't want to believe that his own kids are grown up enough to "understand" adult themes and such.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 10:21 AM
Two things:

The first is the Death Star. We don't know yet when they start building the first one, but conceivably they have around 40 years or so to finish it in time for ANH. But the unfinished but nearly finished one in ROTJ gets built in the blink of an eye (relatively speaking). And the ROTJ one is supposed to be far larger than the first. So just how long does it take to build something like this?


And what is it with the swappable droid heads anyway? We saw 3PO's head circuits in ESB when Chewy reassembles him. There is no way that connection would mesh with the Battle Droid body (and visa-versa). Stupid gimmick for unnecessary cheap humor.

The Overlord Returns
05-20-2002, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by snakeplkn
Illogic seems to have become Lucas' strong points considering the huge plot holes created by Episode I and II. Sure the original 3 had their share of problems, but nothing on the magnitude of present day.

---Padme falling in love with Anakin. Here is a young, smart, beautiful Senator, and the man she falls in love with is a whiner, throws tantrums, engages in genocide, and was reintroduced to him only a couple weeks ago. Based on Anakin's actions, there is nothing that should attract any "normal" woman.

Have you NEVER known a woman to fall for the bad boy? That is exactly what happens here. Padme wants to mother, and care for the "tortured" Anakin. This is classic psychology.

---Death Star. Like in another thread, I don't understand why Darth Sidious doesn't immediately start building the Death Star. Since he and Count Dooku have already thousands of systems that hate the republic in their pockets, the resources are already at their disposal. Forget having to manipulate everyone, get the Death Star up and running and immediately begin destroying all opposition.

Clearly something the size of the Death Star would take a while to build, especially the first attempt at such a thing. Also, I'm sure Palpy wants absolute power, and would want the galaxy beaten into submission, so as not to let rise to some rebellion or something ; )

---Jedi intervention. Why do the Jedi come to save Obi-Wan knowing full well they are outmanned and outgunned. Mace Windu says himself that the Jedi cannot fight a war, yet here they go off against thousands of battle droids. It's a suicide mission that doesn't have to be. It would make more sense if not only the Clone Army arrived at the same time, but at least some of the Republic security forces.

The Jedi aren't just going to knowingly allow 2 of their order to be killed. Obviously they were hoping to get in and out reasonably quickly. Mace also seemed surprised at the amount of BD's Dooku had there.

---Yoda. Didn't say Yoda say "size matters not" but he has a hard time stopping the pillar that would crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. Like someone else mentioned, wouldn't it be smart to throw the pillar at Dooku's ship.

Again, Yoda had just been through a duel with Dooku and such. The little guy was tired. And he is 800 years old remember.

---Jango Fett. Like mentioned in another thread, Jango decides to jump down into the midst of the battle for no apparent reason. Wouldn't it be easier to stay up top and just snipe Jedi? I think Jango was really wasted. He should have killed several more Jedi making his death more meaningful.

It's apparent that Jango is only slightly less moronic than his little boy. Just be happy that Jango wasn't offed by a blind man with a stick as well.

---Padme's 2nd assassination attempt. If a droid can create a hole in the window for insects to get in, why not just throw another bomb and blow the bedroom sky high?

I think they were going for a more subtle apr\proach after the mass bombing attempt failed at the films opening.

---Owen Lars and C-3PO. How many protocol droids do you think Owen will ever see living on Tatooine?

Has it not occured to anyone yet that Owen knows that 3 po is, er, 3 po? This is a guy who's told as many lies as old Ben ever did!
He's a sneaky old coot, and he's trying to protect Luke from his father's fate. I doubt he's going to turn to luke and say, "hey, thats the droid your dad built 30 years ago!"

---Radar. Do both Coruscant and Geonosis lack systems to determine incoming ships? Obi-Wan just waltzes into Geonosis with zero opposition while Count Dooku uses the same ship he escaped with to enter Coruscant. Donít you think after Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin all saw Dookuís ship leave, there would be a galaxy wide APB for his ship? It would as if Osama Bin Laden escaped from Afghanistan on his own personal jet and decided to land in Washington, D.C.

I'd place a wager that bin Laden could fly his own personal jet into Washington, but thats a little off topic. Coruscant is a massive urban planet, the amount of traffic must be mind boggling. As for Obi wan, it's entirely possible they let him land, ala cloud city in esb.

I could go on and on. The other movies have flaws, but not so glaring as to notice immediately. As for this rationale, "it's only a movie," I find that to be the worst excuse. I know it's only a movie, that's why I want to be entertained instead of being frustrated. Flaws, inconsistencies, and mistakes should not be ignored just because it's a Star Wars movie. The potential for greatness was squandered. All that was needed was a stronger script with better elements, watching out for continuity, and more developed characterizations.

As for glaring plot holes, lets look at ESB. How exactly does the empire arrive on bespin before the falcon, let alone just before? A, the falcon takes off in the opposite direction of the fleet. B, it is tailed by Boba, but he'd have to first determine where they were going before radioing in the location. That makes absolutely no sense, and is just as glaring as anything mentioned above.

Snake Plissken
"Call me Snake" ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

The Overlord Returns
05-20-2002, 11:05 AM
Damn........thought I hit "edit"......

stillakid
05-20-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi

I completely DISAGREE! I have seen many women simpathise with men who are opposites. They feel they can help/comfort them. It's very common. That's why the divorce rate is 50%+, because a lot of people make a lot of bad decitions out of "love". I'm sure she sees a lot of the young Anakin in him too.

Star Wars movies aren't case studies or documentaries. While I enjoy seeing depth in onscreen characters as much as the next guy, this woman hasn't been painted as being one of these "fixer" type women at all nor is it an obvious or necessary part of her personality in terms of what is required to advance the plot. Yeah, women like this do exist in the real world, but this is a fictional story where it is frequently necessary to use more stereotypical archetypes than delving into the deeper recesses of human variety.



Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi

He just got the plans at the end of EPII, & I'm sure it will take time and resources to actually finnish it, It will probably be under construction in EPIII.

Maybe, but then how do they get DS II up and running so quickly?


Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi

Why do firefighters enter a burning building just to save your butt? Because that's what they have been pushed to do by this war. They knew thier best shot at defeating dooku & saving Obi-Wan was to defend themselves, they didn't go there to fight a war, there just happend to be one there when they arrived.
He was drained from the fight, that's why he looked fatigued when he stopped it. But I agree, he should have thrown it on his ship, maybe the ship would have exploded. ;)

He had enough energy to toss it forward, so it's just a matter of direction. Why does tossing it to the left take more energy than tossing it forward? Besides, it was he who said, "Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?" Whether it's a lightsaber or a pillar, Yoda should have had no trouble zinging stuff around.




Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi

Could be banned just like cloned soldiers were, with all that traffic it would be hard to keep up with it all, may he used the force to block it. :)

The Force isn't like that. We frequently see Jedi having to wave their hands around and stuff to "make it work." The Force gets way to much credit as the "scapegoat" or bridging element to cover for plot blunders.


Originally posted by Obi-Wan-A-Bi

I think Yoda acted the most out of charactor. Commanding armies, flipping all around at the end. :)

It did cross the line and just get plain silly there.

2-1B
05-20-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Exactly the opposite with the prequels. In the interim between the OT and the Prequels, I think GL attended the Joel Schumacher school of beat-the-audience-over-the-head filmmaking. He simply doesn't trust that anyone will get subtlety and small nuances of character so he hits us with blunt hammer blows in order to get their individual points-of-view across.

That's precisely the case with the Tusken slaughter, plenty of hammer blows to establish the gray area morality of killing them yet some people take the stance that Ani's a cold blooded killer.
Even with what was said and shown on screen, some people don't get it. :)


Anakin's "fall" to the darkside could have been a gradual process, led by Sidious. Instead, it's a process punctuated by wide mood swings and unmotivated rantings.

What unmotivated rantings? His whining at times is not "justified" to the audience, but it's not supposed to be. The scene with Padme about how he's grown up shows that he thinks he is further along than Obi-Wan, but we see he's clearly not. We do actually see motivations for his rantings.

I think it would be hard to show Sidious with a lot of influence because Obi-Wan would probably be around too much. I'm not certain how often they go off on their little missions . . .
Just my guess, but I think that Anakin's encounter with the Tuskens will stay with him and it will fuel his anger with the Jedi. The little nudging from Sidious in AOTC will possibly give way to a blatant capitalization on Anakin's fears / anger.


And what is it with the swappable droid heads anyway? We saw 3PO's head circuits in ESB when Chewy reassembles him. There is no way that connection would mesh with the Battle Droid body (and visa-versa). Stupid gimmick for unnecessary cheap humor.

I have a hard time with the head connections too, I did think of the ESB wirings when I saw the new kneck knob thing. :D

stillakid
05-20-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

What unmotivated rantings? His whining at times is not "justified" to the audience, but it's not supposed to be. The scene with Padme about how he's grown up shows that he thinks he is further along than Obi-Wan, but we see he's clearly not. We do actually see motivations for his rantings.

I think it would be hard to show Sidious with a lot of influence because Obi-Wan would probably be around too much. I'm not certain how often they go off on their little missions . . .
Just my guess, but I think that Anakin's encounter with the Tuskens will stay with him and it will fuel his anger with the Jedi. The little nudging from Sidious in AOTC will possibly give way to a blatant capitalization on Anakin's fears / anger.


The problem is that Anakin's whining stems from a sense that Obi Wan is "being unfair" and "holding him back." Yet we never ever ever ever ever see any examples of that. The kid is a student. Obi Wan is a teacher. Obi does scold Ani, but only after Ani steps over the line to suggest an investigation. Hardly an example of "holding him back." All the other examples are of Anakin being careless (ie, with the lightsaber) or rash (ie, rushing into the cantina, final battle, etc). Padme even tries to explain the teacher/student thing to Anakin and he remarkably answers "I know." Meaning that he understands that Obi is just trying to teach him and implies that he understands how irrational he's being.

But he still says, in a conflicting statement, that he is advanced beyond other Jedi. So, on one hand, he believes that he is ready to be a Jedi and in fact a better Jedi than everyone else, but at the same time he understands that he has more to learn and that Obi Wan is just trying to teach him. :confused:

Yeah, those conflict and are mutually exclusive...unless Anakin is bi-polar or a schizo or something. His mood swings aren't justified by Obi's actions or even Anakin's own beliefs. Maybe it's just that persistent case of Midichlorian's acting up again. :rolleyes:

2-1B
05-20-2002, 11:54 AM
You summed it up pretty well. :)
But I think that's exactly the point, when he does think and use his head he can see the reality. But Obi-Wan is not holding him back, so how can they show him doing the same?

His foolishness in attacking Dooku does go to show that he really is not ahead of Obi-Wan and the others. And allowing Padme to cover the cameras shows he's not always the brightest either.

The kid's got the tools, he has more potential than Obi-Wan. But without the proper training those tools can't be used to their greatest effect. So yeah, it makes sense that he's conflicted over his talents.

But when he gave in to rage he sure exercised a flawless mastery of the force. :crazed:

stillakid
05-20-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
You summed it up pretty well. :)
But I think that's exactly the point, when he does think and use his head he can see the reality. But Obi-Wan is not holding him back, so how can they show him doing the same?

His foolishness in attacking Dooku does go to show that he really is not ahead of Obi-Wan and the others. And allowing Padme to cover the cameras shows he's not always the brightest either.

The kid's got the tools, he has more potential than Obi-Wan. But without the proper training those tools can't be used to their greatest effect. So yeah, it makes sense that he's conflicted over his talents.

But when he gave in to rage he sure exercised a flawless mastery of the force. :crazed:



The more I think about it, it once again comes down to a single line of dialogue that screws everything up. After Padme tells him the "flaws" statement regarding Obi Wan, Anakin says, "I know." For this whole rash judgement thing to work, he shouldn't know. He shouldn't see that flaw in himself or admit that is there. Also, there is no prelude to his being "rash" in TPM. That sweet little kid never exhibit any signs of being so irrational in his actions. All of the sudden in AOTC, POOF! Anakin is running around half-cocked. Okay, so now he's a teenager, but then what was the point of TPM? As far as Anakin's character goes, the only thing we learn about him in TPM is that a) he exists and b) he is chock full o' Midichlorians. "A" provides the foundation for the existence of Luke and Leia later on and "B" provides the groundwork for Palpatine to take an interest in him. Beyond that, the character traits between TPM and AOTC don't mesh or support one another. Maybe that's what makes it so difficult to believe that Padme would have recognized Anakin after all that time. Not only did he not look anything like that little boy, but he didn't act like him either. Maybe if he said, "Yippee!" when they entered the room things would be different. :rolleyes:

2-1B
05-20-2002, 12:23 PM
Well, I do agree with you on the gap between TPM and AOTC. Awhile back I started a thread about my opinion that maybe the same actor should have played Anakin, maybe raise his age in TPM by a few years and then still have him believably that much older in AOTC.

So yeah, alot of the developments are off screen over a decade.

I'm not bothered by the "I know" line. As I watch it, it is actually bothersome because if he does know, I just want him to follow that thought because I like the character.
But 5 years ago when I was the character's age, I saw that same contradiction in many of my peers (and maybe myself a bit too :D). I found myself conflicted over what I feel vs. what I know.

pthfnder89
05-20-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Maybe, but then how do they get DS II up and running so quickly?
None (or few) of the "resources" that Dooku and Sidious have belong directly to them. They are leaders of several factions; the Banking Guild, the Techno-Guild, the Trade Federation. All of these factions would probably have to pool their resources in order to build a Death Star. And therefore they would want a part in its use. By waiting to build it until Palpatine has total control over the Republic, he alone gets to wield the Death Star and he doesn't risk one of the other factions using it agianst him.



Originally posted by stillakid
He had enough energy to toss it forward, so it's just a matter of direction. Why does tossing it to the left take more energy than tossing it forward? Besides, it was he who said, "Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?" Whether it's a lightsaber or a pillar, Yoda should have had no trouble zinging stuff around. The pillar wasn't that tall, if he was going to use it against the ship he would have to lift it up, then drop it. Otherwise he would just bang it against the side, probably not doing much damage and possibly dropping it back on the fallen Jedi.

He was also weakened by his use of the Force during the lightsaber battle. Obviously he needs the Force in order to strengthen him and allow him to perform those kinds of manuveures, and it's probably pretty taxing.
It's the difference between shooting a gun while you're standing still at a target range, and shooting one while you're running across a battle field, under fire.

Originally posted by stillakid
Quote:
I think Yoda acted the most out of charactor. Commanding armies, flipping all around at the end.

Originally posted by stillakid
It did cross the line and just get plain silly there.

How is this considered out of character? It seems like you're calling it "out of character" simply because it isn't what you have seen him do in previous movies. But if that's the criteria then living on Coruscant is out of character, as is leading the Jedi Council.

Why shouldn't he lead the Clone Army? Yoda and Mace head the Jedi Council, they are in charge of all the Jedi in the Galaxy. And the Jedi are the only Republic-wide peacekeepers. The Republic has no army and no experiences commanders, whereas Yoda, for hundreds of years, has been in charge of the closest thing there is to an Army in the Republic. ie: the Jedi. It makes plenty of sense.

JediTricks
05-20-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by leenovak
Last thing, whoever Jedi Sydo-Dyas is/was he's going to kick the Kamino's butt. He goes through all the secrecy of going there to order the army, erasing the system from the Jedi archives and the Kaminos just go and spill their guts about the whole plan to the first person that walks in the door? What's with that? Perhaps a simple "Greetings sir, what brings you here?" from Taun We when Obi-Wan lands would have been appropriate. An interesting point, I thought it was kinda weird too, but so much of their conversation was explaining... EVERYTHING... that I sorta forgot about the whole point. Taun We just starts blathering on and on and never stops.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
An interesting point, I thought it was kinda weird too, but so much of their conversation was explaining... EVERYTHING... that I sorta forgot about the whole point. Taun We just starts blathering on and on and never stops.

There's a lot of convenient "explaining" going on. When Obi Wan sneaks through the catacombs, the bad guys just happened to be talking about their nefarious plot at the precise moment he is listening. But then again, maybe Lucas is making a B-Movie on purpose?

mark2d2
05-20-2002, 11:24 PM
Isn't the Jedi who placed the order supposedly dead? Actually, I assume that it is ---- of course ----- Sidious himself. (Sydo-Dyas?!)

But getting back to Padme in the sand . . . .

Having seen the film three times --- I think that Lucas was going for a Luke calls out to Leia from the weathervane vibe. It cuts right from him writhing in abject agony to Padme suddenly waking up. It's as if she knows exactly where he is. "We've got to get to that Hanger!" Granted, this could have been made a little clearer. But that's the impression, I got. (Maybe the published script will clear this up --- or perhaps the novel?)

Part of the humor in the scene is that the Clone makes no effort what-so-ever to help her. Which I guess would make sense as he's only been brought up to fight, you know?

2-1B
05-20-2002, 11:31 PM
The "get to that hangar" line does seem odd because of how far the gunship should have been along.
But Dooku is obviously making an escape, and he's not going into space on his speeder. So it's logical that he was heading to a hangar, but when she says "that hangar" it's pretty convenient. Maybe she can see it from that far away? :D

Jedi Clint
05-20-2002, 11:36 PM
Sifo-Dyas isn't Sidious. Check out the Q and A topic on that character for a more elaborate explanation mark2d2.

DarthBrandon
05-20-2002, 11:52 PM
I personally did not find anything wrong with this movie it deserves an oscar for acting and all the other awards too.
Just kidding, but remember folks it's a kids movie and us older folks may or may not like things in the movie, but hey he can't please everyone.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by brandon
I personally did not find anything wrong with this movie it deserves an oscar for acting and all the other awards too.
Just kidding, but remember folks it's a kids movie and us older folks may or may not like things in the movie, but hey he can't please everyone.


That's not only a cop out to excuse bad storytelling, it's an insult to younger people. It's an assumption that they don't understand or appreciate a good story when they see it. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it's quite the opposite of your statement. Adults are capable of rationalizing anything for the sake of coming to any preordained conclusion that they wish. Kids won't do that. They like it or they don't. No excuses, no rationalizations. No, they won't get some of the finer points of political intrigue, but if the story is laid out well enough, they'll understand the broad strokes enough to appreciate the story. If the plot is confusing, a kid will never get it and say so, where an adult has the ability to invent conjecture that may or may not be true.

Happy Jedi
05-21-2002, 12:35 AM
Stillakid, Jar-Jar Binks was right! The Nexu claws tear Padme's sleeve off with the same strikes that inflicts cuts on her back. I watched it many times. It is so fast you must be prepared for it.

About the anology of Padme feeling the force on Anakin to know exactly where he is to Luke calls to Leia on the weather vane, Leia got plenty of midichlorian to feel the force, but Padme?? I am not so sure she can do that!

Did anyone moticed a guy that looks like Vader on the left bottom of the screen when Dooku tooks off with his speeder?

stillakid
05-21-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Happy Jedi
Stillakid, Jar-Jar Binks was right! The Nexu claws tear Padme's sleeve off with the same strikes that inflicts cuts on her back. I watched it many times. It is so fast you must be prepared for it.



I saw what happened in the movie. I wasn't disagreeing with him, I was just wondering how he knows the answers to every question asked? :)

Beast
05-21-2002, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Happy Jedi
About the anology of Padme feeling the force on Anakin to know exactly where he is to Luke calls to Leia on the weather vane, Leia got plenty of midichlorian to feel the force, but Padme?? I am not so sure she can do that!
Well, somthing that didn't carry over from the original script to the filmed versions is one of Yoda's lines to Padme after he expresses his gladness that she was not killed in the bombing. Most likely it was dropped from the final cut of the film, because it wasn't necissary to the story. It did pop up in the novel though.

Everyone moved to exchange pleasent greetings, and Yoda pointedly tapped Padme with his small cane.

"With you, the force is strong, young Senator," the Jedi Master told her. "Your tragety on the landing platform, terrible. To see you alive brings warm feelings to my heart."

So it appears that Luke and Leia get their connection to the force, from not only Daddy, but Mommy as well. I guess Lucas shouldn't have cut it from the movie. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Beast
05-21-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
I saw what happened in the movie. I wasn't disagreeing with him, I was just wondering how he knows the answers to every question asked? :)
Well, why do you think George Lucas likes Jar Jar Binks so much. ;) :D

2-1B
05-21-2002, 12:50 AM
Padme has midichlorians, just not as many as Anakin but probably more than Jar Jar.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

Well, why do you think George Lucas likes Jar Jar Binks so much. ;) :D

Because he helped sell 50 million in merchandise over the past 3 years. ;)

Happy Jedi
05-21-2002, 10:18 PM
Why Obi-wan called his droid R4?? That is a red R2 unit. R4 is supposed to have truncated conical head like the R4-E1 owned by Boshek and r4-M9 on Tantive IV.

I agreed with the observation on the all powerful one button scene. One button does it all. There is plenty of buttons on the console, but she has to press the same button to get the map and to retransmit the message.

I have reservation on the changeling thing. It is too Star-Trek like. We never know exactly the Padme on any scene whether she is a changeling or she is real Padme.

Another too Star-Trek like character is Sly Moore, in my opinion. I don't want to offend ST fans, but let SW be SW.

Darth Nihilus
05-22-2002, 09:33 AM
Yeah, I wondered why they bothered making Zam a shapeshifter if it didn't play at all in her few scenes.

As for Padme's attraction to Anakin, I will play devil's advocate here and say that this is explored in the novelisation. Most other guys see Padme as a politician (how they manage that is beyond me), she is not used to being looked at the way Anakin looks at her. It makes her feel feminine. But why she loves him is a mystery.

stillakid
05-22-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Darth Nihilus
Yeah, I wondered why they bothered making Zam a shapeshifter if it didn't play at all in her few scenes.
.


Watch the opening sequences of AOTC again. And then go home and watch the opening sequences of The Fifth Element. Right from the start with the tilt up into the planet, the similarities in production design are uncanny...including the "changling" and what she changes into.

I'd seen the blatant ripoff that Lucas did at the end of TPM (the dinosaur parade thing) but this is almost worse.

JediTricks
05-22-2002, 07:07 PM
Yeah, the 5th Element was definitely present in that speeder chase.

RooJay
05-22-2002, 10:00 PM
:rolleyes:

stillakid
05-22-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
:rolleyes:

You don't agree?


It's not really an "agree" thing or not. The proof is available for all the world to see. It just "is."

SithDroid
05-23-2002, 12:12 AM
I agree. that's all I could think about when I saw AOTC was that the speeder chase looked exactly like the 5th element.

Darth Nihilus
05-23-2002, 09:40 AM
Anakin and Padme meadow scene has been attributed to The Sound of Music

The Arena battle between the three prisoners and the creatures reminded me of Gladiator.

The Droid/Clonetrooper battle scenes were filmed in a style reminiscent of Saving Private Ryan.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 09:59 AM
I just want to go on record to say that his "emulating" of other filmmakers and storytellers doesn't really bother me. He's done this since ANH. It's an engrained part of what Star Wars is.

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 06:59 PM
I would totally agree with that Stilla, except that I'd add that FOR ME it's a little more jarring when it's recent films he's "borrowing from" because those films are still fresh in our minds and it detracts a little.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I would totally agree with that Stilla, except that I'd add that FOR ME it's a little more jarring when it's recent films he's "borrowing from" because those films are still fresh in our minds and it detracts a little.


Well, I, uh, was thinking along those lines, but I've been accused of complaining way too much, so I figured I'd truncate my argument. :)

He freely borrowed from 50's B movies and DUNE, for instance, but yeah, that Dinotopia thing (or whatever it was) at the end of TPM was bordering on just plain plagerism. The Fifth Element, um, imagery was a little disconcerting. I liked it, but just the fact that it was so blatant is disturbing.

Jargo
05-24-2002, 08:40 PM
Hmmm, Lucas based the whole Tatooine desert planet thing on DUNE way back when he created star wars. Homage to great visionaries is one thing but I'm taking your word for the 5th elephant thing as I've never seen that movie yet. What bothers me is the jokes. They seem more like jokes to humour Lucas than us the audience. The easter eggs are like little party tricks the ILM animators put in to make Lucas clap his pudgy little hands with glee rather than gems for us to relish. The cameos of Daniels and Best seem bitter tasting when I think that Kenny Baker should have been in there somewhere, They filmed in England at Elstree, Kenny could have done a cameo. That little guy in Palpatines office should have been Kenny baker unmasked. The cameos are all about twanging the inflated egos of people who should be deflated not lauded. Daniels and Best are so puffed up with ego they should by rights explode. I really didn't want to see their ugly mugs in close up shots. It was enough that they were actually seen in the shots without that. And what was the death sticks bit about? It went by so fast I thought it was a **** up take. What was the point of it exept to show Obi being able to do jedi mind tricks? We know he can use the force so why show it?
How come he doesn't use the force to get Zam to confess? Oh maxi big the Jedi! I think not if he can't get a dying alien to fess up. :rolleyes:

2-1B
05-25-2002, 02:44 AM
But, but, but Jargo, mind tricks don't work on Zam - only money.
Wait, that's Watto . . . :rolleyes: :D


When Anakin is walking through the Nightclub, there is a shot of him with the braid on the wrong side. I know it's minor, but it bugs me. It bugs me because George did it in TPM with Obers' braid and he joked about it on the commentary, giggling that his flipped shot backfired on him. So why let it happen this time? C'mon, there's digital alterations in just about every shot, am I to believe it would be too much to digitally clip the braid and put it on the other side ? If the shot was that much better with Hayden's face in reverse, then finish the job! :crazed:

JediTricks
05-25-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Well, I, uh, was thinking along those lines, but I've been accused of complaining way too much, so I figured I'd truncate my argument. :)

He freely borrowed from 50's B movies and DUNE, for instance, but yeah, that Dinotopia thing (or whatever it was) at the end of TPM was bordering on just plain plagerism. The Fifth Element, um, imagery was a little disconcerting. I liked it, but just the fact that it was so blatant is disturbing. I know exactly what you mean about truncating of your argument, it's a tough burden.

Dinotopia was "borrowed" from with the parade AND with Theed over the waterfall; when I first saw pics, I was absolutely shocked at how badly those were "borrowed".

As for the other instances of "modern borrowing", I've found that it's not just jarring as plagerism - though it is that too - but it's also a feeling of "just been there, just done that" for me. 5th Element is a movie that made visual wonder less than 10 years ago, so it's not very wonderous when Lucas simply copy/pastes it into his film.

RooJay
05-25-2002, 03:59 PM
Yeah! How dare George Lucas try to have a victory parade in his movie!:mad:
The only thing that could've made it more a rip-off of Dinotopia is if Lucas' parade had DINOSAURS in it!

Come to think of it Ferris Bueller's Day Off had a parade in it too!!!
Lot's of other movies have them too! WHat's the deal with everyone ripping off Dinotopia?!!

I also think George should've ditched the idea of a futuristic planet-wide city that he thought up way back in the seventies as soon as Luc Besson beat him to it!:rolleyes:

stillakid
05-25-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
Yeah! How dare George Lucas try to have a victory parade in his movie!:mad:
The only thing that could've made it more a rip-off of Dinotopia is if Lucas' parade had DINOSAURS in it!

Come to think of it Ferris Bueller's Day Off had a parade in it too!!!
Lot's of other movies have them too! WHat's the deal with everyone ripping off Dinotopia?!!

I also think George should've ditched the idea of a futuristic planet-wide city that he thought up way back in the seventies as soon as Luc Besson beat him to it!:rolleyes:


You really don't believe any of what you just said do you? It's not just A parade...it's THE parade lifted right out of the illustrations of the book. And there is a "dinosaur" in Lucas's "version" walking right down the middle of the road. How can you miss it?

And it isn't just the multi-leveled traffic, it's also the same opening shot as Fifth Element and the same kind of "changling" as the Fifth Element. The traffic thing is of course nothing new in and of itself. Blade Runner has some inference to it as well as Back to the Future II. But EP II's city looks curiously like the one in the Fifth Element. I got to wondering if they didn't just try to save money by re-using the already built 3-D computer models.

Borrowing a futuristic concept is one thing, but "cutting and pasting" it is something else.

SunCrusher
05-25-2002, 10:10 PM
If any of my points were mentioned, I'm sorry, I didn't see them.

I think c-3po overall was a major screw up. First, he just leaves tatooine with anakin and padme? Who's gonna work on the vaporators?? Then he tops that off with the whole head swapping scene. How pathetic.

I do think a few things you guys mentioned are ridculed too much. The scene where padme falls into the sand it logical and not funny at all. She doesn't just suddenly jump up. She does waken a little before getting up. Also, someone the scene where padme falls onto the creature in the arena without a noise. Actually, she does make a grunting noise, and she does react to the fall.

For some odd reason, it seemed like the whole movie was a blur. I've seen it twice, and it seems like after watching the movie I get the feeling I hadn't watched anything. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

stillakid
05-25-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by SunCrusher
For some odd reason, it seemed like the whole movie was a blur. I've seen it twice, and it seems like after watching the movie I get the feeling I hadn't watched anything. I don't know, maybe it's just me.


It's kinda like eating a Twinkie. It tastes good for a second but then you realize that all you ate was sugar. Then you need a drink to wash it down.

RooJay
05-26-2002, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



You really don't believe any of what you just said do you? It's not just A parade...it's THE parade lifted right out of the illustrations of the book. And there is a "dinosaur" in Lucas's "version" walking right down the middle of the road. How can you miss it?

And it isn't just the multi-leveled traffic, it's also the same opening shot as Fifth Element and the same kind of "changling" as the Fifth Element. The traffic thing is of course nothing new in and of itself. Blade Runner has some inference to it as well as Back to the Future II. But EP II's city looks curiously like the one in the Fifth Element. I got to wondering if they didn't just try to save money by re-using the already built 3-D computer models.

Borrowing a futuristic concept is one thing, but "cutting and pasting" it is something else.

I BELIEVE every last word of it, absolutely! The Naboo had just seen the defeat of their captors. They are a mainly metropolitan society, at least the portion of it (THE CAPITOL) that we see in the film. Ever notice how cities celebrate when they see their enemies defeated? THEY HAVE A PARADE. We even hade parades here, in our own country, to celebrate the end of World War 2! ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! It wasn't just our country either, but cities ALL OVER THE WORLD! Saying that Lucas should never have depicted a victory celebration in Phantom Menace (regardless of any similarities in the architecture or creatures native to that particular section of Lucas' galaxy) JUST because a SIMILAR celebration was used in a book is just plain foolishness! Please don't tell me that you know for a fact that the creators of Dinotopia weren't influenced in any details by Lucas and his Star Wars, or that they weren't influenced in any form by the same people that inspired Lucas. Dinotopia itself IS NOT an original concept. If you think you can be so much more creative than Lucas, then do it. Show us what you've got! Surely someone in Hollywood would be impressed by your creations. I'm DYING to see your films! Don't hold out on us. You seem to feel you've got what it takes to blow all of us jaded, cynical as all get out fans away with your writings...PUT OUT. Maybe you can win us over from the evil Lucasfilm Empire. You can take that as a challenge!

I also seem to recall seeing Ralph McQuarrie's Lucas requested designs and reading Lucas' own ideas for the city we see as Coruscant from sources known to have been created as far back as the mid-seventies. Blade Runner wasn't released until 1982. You don't think it's possible that the designers of that film and The Fifth Element might've been inspired by Lucas' designers? The Fifth Element is in itself a derivation of Star Wars, and was HIGHLY influenced by the story AND design Lucas created way back when Luc Besson was still probably in college! That movie's production designer Dan Weil was probably no older than high school aged; his first credited work was in 1986! Have you even seen the movie? In fact, if you were to change the names of some of the locations and tweaked the look of some of the tech, The Fifth Element could've BEEN a Star Wars movie!

Come back when you've got something SOLID to complain about.

JediTricks
05-26-2002, 06:20 PM
RooJay, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but are you HIGH ON THE CRACK?!? Here are 2 visual examples of the Dinotopia illustrations: Waterfall City (http://www.dinotopia.com/waterfall2.gif) - copyright 1988; and Dinosaur parade (http://www.dinotopia.com/paradea.gif) - copyright 1990.
Those came from these TFN articles about this issue:
http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=2731
http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=2809
http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=5607

In that 2nd article, it claims that Lucas had even seen all the Dinotopia designs for a possible Dinotopia film before Ep 1 began its design processes (and I've yet to find anything from Ralph McQuarrie or the other SW conceptual artists that match Theed or the parade).

As for The 5th Element, I won't debate that many films have had futuristic, colorful cities, but how many of them had airspeeder chases (especially "camerawork" and such) like those seen in 5th Element?

stillakid
05-26-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by RooJay


I BELIEVE every last word of it, absolutely! The Naboo had just seen the defeat of their captors. They are a mainly metropolitan society, at least the portion of it (THE CAPITOL) that we see in the film. Ever notice how cities celebrate when they see their enemies defeated? THEY HAVE A PARADE. We even hade parades here, in our own country, to celebrate the end of World War 2! ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! It wasn't just our country either, but cities ALL OVER THE WORLD! Saying that Lucas should never have depicted a victory celebration in Phantom Menace (regardless of any similarities in the architecture or creatures native to that particular section of Lucas' galaxy) JUST because a SIMILAR celebration was used in a book is just plain foolishness! Please don't tell me that you know for a fact that the creators of Dinotopia weren't influenced in any details by Lucas and his Star Wars, or that they weren't influenced in any form by the same people that inspired Lucas. Dinotopia itself IS NOT an original concept. If you think you can be so much more creative than Lucas, then do it. Show us what you've got! Surely someone in Hollywood would be impressed by your creations. I'm DYING to see your films! Don't hold out on us. You seem to feel you've got what it takes to blow all of us jaded, cynical as all get out fans away with your writings...PUT OUT. Maybe you can win us over from the evil Lucasfilm Empire. You can take that as a challenge!

I also seem to recall seeing Ralph McQuarrie's Lucas requested designs and reading Lucas' own ideas for the city we see as Coruscant from sources known to have been created as far back as the mid-seventies. Blade Runner wasn't released until 1982. You don't think it's possible that the designers of that film and The Fifth Element might've been inspired by Lucas' designers? The Fifth Element is in itself a derivation of Star Wars, and was HIGHLY influenced by the story AND design Lucas created way back when Luc Besson was still probably in college! That movie's production designer Dan Weil was probably no older than high school aged; his first credited work was in 1986! Have you even seen the movie? In fact, if you were to change the names of some of the locations and tweaked the look of some of the tech, The Fifth Element could've BEEN a Star Wars movie!

Come back when you've got something SOLID to complain about.

A little touchy aren't we?

The creator of Dinotopia was asked after Ep I came out about that parade scene. He said that he choked on his popcorn when that shot came up. Apparently you haven't seen the illustrations from the book which were created before TPM was ever on the drawing board. This isn't a "believe it or not" issue. It just is. Get mad at me or anyone else all you want, it won't change the facts. And by all means...chill.

I did say that the multi leveled traffic wasn't a new concept and in fact is present in at least one 1950's B movie (the title escapes me now), but you apparently haven't seen The Fifth Element either. That opening shot is exactly the same and the "changling" is the same kind of "lizard" creature. It could have been anything at all, but with the rest of the similarities between the films, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.

The Production Designer for The Fifth Element, Dan Weil, has been working since 1986, several years before the Star Wars Special Editions were released which hinted at any design concept for Coruscant. There is nothing in the original editions of Star Wars that suggested any similarity to be copied for The Fifth Element.

The earliest Production Design Credit for Gavin Bocquet, the designer for Episode I, was in 1990. He had been working for several years prior art departments as early as 1980. Gavin is also the designer for Episode II.

Besides, The Fifth Element was released in 1997...Episode I in 1999...we're talking about designs that weren't released until a week ago. So who copied who?


But why are you defending Lucasfilm so vehemently? Are they paying you or something? ;)

stillakid
05-27-2002, 10:40 AM
Re: Lucas confirms memory wipe... Post #2

Quote:
Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
From Dark Horizons...

Star Wars: Episode III: George Lucas spoke with "E! News Daily" where he was asked the question of why C-3PO doesn't recognise as Vader? Lucas's answer was exactly what many fans were guessing but at least now its confirmed: "Well, one, his brains have, his memory system has been erased and so has R2's. So, they don't remember anything from the first trilogy. I'm telling you something from Episode 3, but I shouldn't be telling you that, but I think most of the fans already know that". The bigger news of today though was MTV apparently re-iterated rumours that Natalie Portman has signed on to be a part of the new scenes being filmed for Episode VI: Return Of The Jedi - she'll shoot scenes during the production of Episode III which'll then be reinserted to the DVD release of 'Jedi'. Thanks to 'Kenobi' & 'SQ'.


Speaking of C3PO's brains, I was under the impression that they were not in his head, but in his chest. So when his head pops off in AOTC, not only is the neck interface all contrived, but he should've gone into a coma.


__________________

stillakid
05-27-2002, 10:41 AM
it got quiet in here didn't it :)

2-1B
05-27-2002, 11:01 AM
It's illogical that Threeps wonders aloud what happened to R2 since he's always getting into trouble. But never in TPM did 3P0 see R2 get into trouble, and when he says it in AOTC they had just been reunited.

Re: Dinotopia - is it only a book? I'm not familiar with it, did they make a movie too?

Padme in Episode VI ? This is madness. :crazed:

LTBasker
05-27-2002, 03:21 PM
Please NO Padme in ROTJ! That's just flat out wrong. Or if you must have her in it, please get a better actress to play her and just claim the changes were due to an accident between movies or aging. :D

I dunno if this was mentioned earlier or not (I don't think I could sit and just read 108 posts for one thread in a row to check it out) but anyone else notice Padme had blasters in her holsters when she was in the droid factory? They were secured in their holsters so they couldn't really fall out but she never used them to blast at Geonosians or factory machinery.

The 3PO part wasn't all that bad too me, the parts where he's getting tossed about by the droid and just happens to catch the edge of the container that droid is carrying and then just happens to stand correctly in order for a Battle Droid head to be put on him did kinda bug me though, and the cartoonyniss of the CGI also was kinda eh, but oh well.

Both of those Padme scenes also bugged me a little. IMO her and the clone should've actually gone rolling backwards by being pushed off the gunship and not really have anything stopping except for the ground but the forces pushing them backwards should've still been in effect when they hit the ground. Also when she landed on the Reek....if you landed onto a spine of a beast like that that was also ridged, I think you would do a little more than just grunt a little. ;)

RooJay
05-28-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


A little touchy aren't we?

Yes, I am. That's what happens when you attempt to insult my intelligence. You presume to be so smart that ONLY your argument has any validity?


The creator of Dinotopia was asked after Ep I came out about that parade scene. He said that he choked on his popcorn when that shot came up. Apparently you haven't seen the illustrations from the book which were created before TPM was ever on the drawing board. This isn't a "believe it or not" issue. It just is. Get mad at me or anyone else all you want, it won't change the facts. And by all means...chill.

I have seen the illustrations from Dinotopia. I own a copy of that book. I am well aware of the design similarities. I just fail to see this as a "rip-off". Are you saying that Lucas saw the designs from Dinotopia before sitting down to write Episode 1, and then sat down and wrote all of the Naboo sequences with the victory parade in mind? You failed to note many of the other points I made. The Naboo conduct their government from a city. Fact. The Naboo have just experienced a major victory. Fact. Cities have a tendency to celebrate victories with a parade. Fact. I just don't see as how this whole sequence of events could've been dictated by Dinotopia's parade scene. I don't see how you can contend that this was all set up just so Lucas could "steal" that parade image from the book.
You also failed to address the fact that, as I've said, Dinotopia is not an original concept itself. Anyone remember The Lost World? Land of the Lost? Jurrassic Park? DINO RIDERS? In case no one else has noticed, much of what we see in film today is derivative of other sources. That's just the nature of the beast. Any film you see nowadays will have scenes that have been inspired by other films and even books. If you really want to talk derivation how about Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress (1958) or Fritz Lang's Metropolis (1927)(there was a bit of Coruscant there too) or Frau im Mond (1929). The latter was the first film version of space travel, which technically makes all other science fiction films derivative of it! Even the first Star Wars was inspired by other sources. In a sense, that is what Lucas intended from the start. There is not a writer around today that can say that he has ever written anything that is totally original and not inspired by his own outside influences. Any writer who believes so is arrogant, uninformed, and a liar.[/B][/QUOTE]


I did say that the multi leveled traffic wasn't a new concept and in fact is present in at least one 1950's B movie (the title escapes me now), but you apparently haven't seen The Fifth Element either. That opening shot is exactly the same and the "changling" is the same kind of "lizard" creature. It could have been anything at all, but with the rest of the similarities between the films, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.

Again, another assumption that I have come to my conclusions without thinking or without the use of intelligent comprehension. I have indeed seen The Fifth Element. So many time in fact that I can act it out for you. Your argument is so airtight that no one else could possibly have come across a counter argument with any sort of proof or research? NOT HARDLY. The opening of Attack of the Clones is pretty much standard for Star Wars films. It could easily be said that the opening of The Fifth Element was "stolen" from the original Star Wars trilogy. ALL Star Wars films have opened with a shot of space panning towards a planetary body with a space vessel in orbit. The DIRECTION of the pan is of little consequence in my opinion, and upon proper reflection should be of little consequence in anyones opinion. The use of changelings is also incidental at best and has little or no bearing on the story. Many films prior to The Fifth Element have had alien changelings as characters. Do you truly believe that no other film should be allowed to use that concept? The Fifth Element did not even refer to it's aliens as changelings. I find that fact to be truly incidental at best in that film.


The Production Designer for The Fifth Element, Dan Weil, has been working since 1986, several years before the Star Wars Special Editions were released which hinted at any design concept for Coruscant. There is nothing in the original editions of Star Wars that suggested any similarity to be copied for The Fifth Element.

The concept for "Imperial City", what we now know as Coruscant was first suggested by Lucas in the rough draft of the script for ROTJ from February 1981 in which it is named "Had Abbadon, capital of the Galactic Empire". It is said to be completely covered by cities and shrouded in haze. Some design work for this concept was done by Ralph McQuarrie (Star Wars' ORIGINAL designer) as early as 1981. Much of what we saw in the Special Editions and in TPM and ATOC was designed by McQuarrie for the book The Illustrated Star Wars Universe, published in 1995, a full two years prior to the release of The Fifth Element in 1997.


The earliest Production Design Credit for Gavin Bocquet, the designer for Episode I, was in 1990. He had been working for several years prior art departments as early as 1980. Gavin is also the designer for Episode II.

Besides, The Fifth Element was released in 1997...Episode I in 1999...we're talking about designs that weren't released until a week ago. So who copied who?

As stated above, most of the design work that was done for Coruscant was by Ralph McQuarrie, whose earliest design credit was 1977. Those designs were then adapted by Gavin Bocquet.


But why are you defending Lucasfilm so vehemently? Are they paying you or something? ;)

I only wish they were paying me. I'd have loved to have been involved in TPM, AOTC, and Ep. 3. The reason I defend them is because I love Star Wars. I enjoy it immensely. Why should I not speak up in defense of my favorite films? Why not speak up when I have a valid opinion on the subject? Why are you criticizing Lucasfilm so heavily? Are you implying that I should refrain from speaking out simply because I DO support Lucasfilm? Are you saying that I shouldn't have a voice simply because my views are in opposition to yours?

Also, you don't seem to have taken note of my challenge. It still stands. If you really wnat me to not like Star Wars then do something yourself that will dazzle me so as to win me away from the evil that is George Lucas.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by RooJay

Why not speak up when I have a valid opinion on the subject? Why are you criticizing Lucasfilm so heavily? Are you implying that I should refrain from speaking out simply because I DO support Lucasfilm? Are you saying that I shouldn't have a voice simply because my views are in opposition to yours?

Also, you don't seem to have taken note of my challenge. It still stands. If you really wnat me to not like Star Wars then do something yourself that will dazzle me so as to win me away from the evil that is George Lucas.


First, the designs are still quite derivative of Fifth Element. Not because of any single one of them, but because of the pattern of several strung together.

Second, when the creator of Dinotopia himself takes issue with the use of similar imagery, one has to sit up and take notice.

Third, anyone can speak their mind at any time about anything. Not once have I suggested anything to the contrary. You offered up opinions without taking the time to add supporting material for them until now.

Fourth, as far as you challenge goes, it's a silly thing you ask and you know it. It's scarcely been a week since you threw down the gauntlet and asked me to whip up a 100 million dollar film and release it to theaters. :rolleyes: Get a grip on reality for a few seconds before posting again.

No one asked you to not like Star Wars. Similariites in design were brought into question, and you chose to defend them without adequate proof. No one is suggesting that George Lucas is evil either. I also mentioned previously that his work has always been derivitive of previous filmmakers, authors, and artists. It's what he does and he has freely admitted it in the past. The recent concerns by myself and others is the extreme similarity of derivation to the original works.

So, take the time to listen to what is being said and react accordingly. Unlock your doors. Nobody is out to get you. Nobody is out to get George. The world is fine. :)

PS. I am actively working to get in the position to "take up your challenge," though my efforts preceded your request by a number of years. I'll let you know when I get there. :)

RooJay
05-28-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by stillakid



First, the designs are still quite derivative of Fifth Element. Not because of any single one of them, but because of the pattern of several strung together.

...and I still contend that the designs of The Fifth Element are quite derivative of the original designs for Coruscant that pre-date them.


Second, when the creator of Dinotopia himself takes issue with the use of similar imagery, one has to sit up and take notice.

That still doesn't make it a rip-off in my opinion. If that were so then why has the creator of Dinotopia not sought financial compensation?


Third, anyone can speak their mind at any time about anything. Not once have I suggested anything to the contrary. You offered up opinions without taking the time to add supporting material for them until now.

On the contrary, I feel I have supplied more than adequate supporting material. In spite of the notion that you feel I haven't supplied such evidence until now, that still does not negate the existence of such. While you never suggested that I was not allowed to speak my mind (please note that even if you had, I would most certainly have done so anyway), you certainly strongly implied that only YOUR thoughts were well contemplated and valid, as you OFTEN have in past discussions. You have also often seemed to imply that you somehow are better equipped to judge the merits of the Star Wars films. Regardless of whatever kinds of education you have received, I assure you that you are not the authority, and that your views are no more valid than anyone else's.


Fourth, as far as you challenge goes, it's a silly thing you ask and you know it. It's scarcely been a week since you threw down the gauntlet and asked me to whip up a 100 million dollar film and release it to theaters. :rolleyes: Get a grip on reality for a few seconds before posting again.

:rolleyes:It is certainly not a silly thing I ask. For one, if you go back and read my previous post you will see that I simply stated how you had not addressed my challenge. Everyone knows that you haven't had enough time to produce. Insinuating that I don't only goes to prove how petty, blind, and immature you truly are. You didn't even comment on the subject. If and when the time comes that you have met my challenge I will then concede that you do indeed know what you were talking about. Not until then. I assure you, my grip on reality is quite strong and I'd even go so far as to say it's stronger than yours for none other than the fact that I realize that all popular media is at it's very nature purely derivative and totally subjective, and furthermore that popular film is indeed intended purely as "escapist fare".


No one asked you to not like Star Wars. Similariites in design were brought into question, and you chose to defend them without adequate proof. No one is suggesting that George Lucas is evil either. I also mentioned previously that his work has always been derivitive of previous filmmakers, authors, and artists. It's what he does and he has freely admitted it in the past. The recent concerns by myself and others is the extreme similarity of derivation to the original works.

As I've stated above, I feel I have supplied plenty of adequate proof. THAT ALONE is how I chose to defend my views. There have been "extreme similarities of derivation" from the beginning. Even in the very concept of the storyline. Even in the very layout of the story of the original Star Wars movie. I do believe I pointed that out as part of my argument.


So, take the time to listen to what is being said and react accordingly. Unlock your doors. Nobody is out to get you. Nobody is out to get George. The world is fine. :)

The same applies to you. My door is as open as my mind. Lucas is not trying to purposely smite your sensibilities much as you might feel that is the case. He just wants you to have fun and enjoy his story. You are right, the world IS fine, and there is always more than one side to every issue. Don't try to hide from that fact. Don't be ashamed to know that your thoughts are not the only truth. Don't be disappointed if it turns out that you are not always right. :) :happy:


PS. I am actively working to get in the position to "take up your challenge," though my efforts preceded your request by a number of years. I'll let you know when I get there. :)

Good for you. Meanwhile so am I. Won't that challenge be exciting! :D

Uncle Owen
05-29-2002, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Darth Nihilus
Yeah, I wondered why they bothered making Zam a shapeshifter if it didn't play at all in her few scenes.



I think this may have been off screen...They mention the bomb that blew up the ship was internal...so maybe Zam Planted it as a Naboo Pilot or something, perhaps before they left for Naboo...

Just a Guess,
Owen Out!!!:confused:

JediTricks
05-29-2002, 02:03 AM
I think Zam wasn't originally intended to be a shapeshifter at all, and ILM just threw it in at the last minute to make her more interesting. I didn't see any mention of it in the script.

Jargo
05-29-2002, 07:39 AM
Pretty pointless having Zam be a shapeshifter if the only thing that shifts is here face. You're gonna notice that someone's wearing a distinctive purple body suit no matter what they disguise their face as. They could have had it be a way for her to appeal more to human clients but that never even got considered even in the pathetic EU backstory that's been concocted for her. It's just a way for ILM to showcase their talents like many of the effects in the movie. They serve no other purpose. I actually think Leeana Walsman did a good job with what little she had to work with. I genuinely thought she looked terrified of the crazy Jedi stuck to the roof of the speeder as she tried to fly the thing and shake him off at the same time. But why did she creep up on Obi if she had a blaster? she could have shot him from several feet away. It was like she was waiting for him to swing round with that saber. Just the same way Jango conveniently waits for Mace to swing his saber in the arena. very bad editing. just a second or so cut would have made things seem faster. A different camera angle would have made the scenes more intense and added some real tension like there should have been. The way Lucas shot the arm severing made it seem really remote and I didn't feel anything from either Zam or Obi, got no sense of it meaning anything to either the story or the characters. And I guess the face change thing was thrown in at the last minute to liven up the cinematic experience of a really dull scene. Why didn't the two Jedi use a mind trick to get Zam to confess who her employer was? She was in a compromised position and weakened by the loss of her arm which would have made manipulating her mind that much easier.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 02:02 AM
Jargo, I *think* the idea is that Zam doesn't want to attract attention (especially Anakin's attention) when she kills Obi-Wan, but I didn't get that idea from seeing the film (I got it from the script), so better editing probably would have helped that concept come across.

However, I don't get that impression during Jango's death, the guy kinda backs off one step but doesn't really show any survival instinct or tiring, it just HAPPENS - it is one of the most pointless deaths in the epic story of Star Wars IMO, there's no direct logical chain of events that cause Jango's death.

Jargo
05-30-2002, 10:42 AM
But if Zam didn't want to attract attention why did she walk slowly and purposefully toward Obi with a blaster held out in front of herself? Y'tellin' me someone isn't going to see a chick in a purple catsuit holding a blaster and think there's gonna be trouble ahead? Where was the security in this club then? I thought there was supposed to be a scene involving Anakin and a bouncer. So what if they're jedi who take off the mad chicks arm, shouldn't there have been some sort of security check done just for the record? To make sure they are actually Jedi and have the authority to dismember at whim. The whole nightclub sequence was a total wasted opportunity to me. Lucas flubbed the chance to create something on a par with the original cantina scene and what do we get instead? A hamfisted anti drugs message and a scene that looks like the opening of an art gallery exhibiton. Yawn yawn yawn.... :rolleyes:

Jonna
05-30-2002, 10:49 AM
Wow, this thread got really out of control. Someone at work just mentioned something to me that seemed kind of funny. If Padme was in a big battle and then fell down a large hill, how is it that she didn't get a speck of dust on her pure white getup? I know it was ripped, but besides that it is super clean. Was the clone trooper that found her a former dry cleaner?

SunCrusher
05-30-2002, 12:38 PM
Well falling into sand doesn't necessary mean you'll get noticeably dirty. I can see how all the hits should took in the arena could have caused her to get dirty, however.

Master Goeweins
05-30-2002, 04:23 PM
Zam being a face shapeshifter dosn't do much for her other than maybe help her use a fake ID. But I think they put it in there to only make her all the more mysterious. She is the ESB Boba Fett for this movie. Only minutes of screen time and two lines, yet she is everyone's favorite.
And perhaps the Jedis could not use the mind trick on her because her mind was probably so panicked and all over the place from her arm being CHOPPED OFF!

And hey... Fifth Element being a rip off of Coruscant and Coruscant being inspired from Fifth Element... How about the fact that they both seem to have taken some pointers from Blade Runner. They both look like the city scenes in that classic. Including the pseudo Japanese neon signs. Either way... I love all three of those films. And it's good that artists can draw inspiration from each other and still give us different visions.

The only two things that really bother me are Padme's convenient and quick garment tears of the arm, midriff, and still managing to grab a set of claw marks all with one fell swoop. And Anakin riding that Naboo bovine thing... creepy.

My girlfriend laughs everytime she sees Padme's fall and rise in the desert sand.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Master Goeweins
Zam
And hey... Fifth Element being a rip off of Coruscant and Coruscant being inspired from Fifth Element... How about the fact that they both seem to have taken some pointers from Blade Runner. They both look like the city scenes in that classic. Including the pseudo Japanese neon signs. Either way... I love all three of those films. And it's good that artists can draw inspiration from each other and still give us different visions.





You're kind of right. :) On page 11 of The Art of Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones, Doug Chiang is quoted as saying, "We were going down to street level to see a Coruscant we'd never seen before. George threw down the gauntlet when he said it'd have to look better than Blade Runner."


There's no doubt that both 5th and Ep II derived certain aspects from Blade Runner. And it could be argued successfully that the "unattractive" future of Blade Runner was "inspired" by the used Star Wars Universe. Most sci fi, prior to ANH was very clean cut and Star Wars was a watershed event in terms of production design.

What's in question regarding the 5th vs Ep II controversy is the large number of very similar shots, not just the general concepts. Drawing inspiration from the past is a large part of how artists create. Outright copying isn't so cool.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by EMPEROR JARGO
But if Zam didn't want to attract attention why did she walk slowly and purposefully toward Obi with a blaster held out in front of herself? Y'tellin' me someone isn't going to see a chick in a purple catsuit holding a blaster and think there's gonna be trouble ahead? Where was the security in this club then? I thought there was supposed to be a scene involving Anakin and a bouncer. So what if they're jedi who take off the mad chicks arm, shouldn't there have been some sort of security check done just for the record? To make sure they are actually Jedi and have the authority to dismember at whim. The whole nightclub sequence was a total wasted opportunity to me. Lucas flubbed the chance to create something on a par with the original cantina scene and what do we get instead? A hamfisted anti drugs message and a scene that looks like the opening of an art gallery exhibiton. Yawn yawn yawn.... :rolleyes: Hey, don't blame me, I didn't write the scene. ;) I agree, the whole thing doesn't work too well for me either beyond the obvious "hey look, we're trying to recreate an Obi-Wan scene from ANH!" that they silently scream at the top of their lungs. With Zam creeping up on Obi-Wan, either the "shapeshifter" addition is supposed to explain how she gets lost in that crowd and then sneaks up on him, or it's just a poorly-directed scene.


Jonna, perhaps it's Padme's royal "no cleaning neaded" suit. :D


Goeweins, I'll give you that cinematically, both owe their dues to Blade Runner, but even Blade Runner wasn't an original sci-fi concept in this department IMO - I think it was just the first to excel here cinematically. My comment was that, to me, the speeder chase scene itself felt cinematically too similar to the 5th Element taxi chase scene; in the way it was shot, with the way the camera moved and how the characters were used.

I saw the film last Saturday evening, and the entire audience - at least 150 people - was laughing when Padme got up from the sand. There was so much laughter that I thought I had missed something, so I asked around and no, everybody I talked to was laughing at how badly the scene played out. It was just so overwhelming because when I first saw the film a week before that, it was met with only a few guffaws and disbelieving groans, but this was an entire theater erupting with laughter.

stillakid
05-31-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I saw the film last Saturday evening, and the entire audience - at least 150 people - was laughing when Padme got up from the sand. There was so much laughter that I thought I had missed something, so I asked around and no, everybody I talked to was laughing at how badly the scene played out. It was just so overwhelming because when I first saw the film a week before that, it was met with only a few guffaws and disbelieving groans, but this was an entire theater erupting with laughter.

It is a ridiculously acted and written scene. We cut to a shot of her lying inert on the sand and POOF! she wakes up. Not a groan of pain or anything, just POOF! awake so that she can give some expository dialogue that doesn't even make sense. Then she orders the clone trooper to hurry up and go get another ship (that's at least 20 miles away) then proceeds to run right on his heels. Had we continued with that shot, I have no doubt that she could have passed him easily and gotten to a ship herself.

As a big fan of Natalie Portman's work, I am really disappointed by what I saw in AOTC from her. She is capable of doing so much better. Perhaps it was the script or the lack of direction, or perhaps she really isn't that great of a SFX actress, but whatever the cause, it didn't work so well. She had a couple of moments where her talent shone through during the Anakin bipolar/romance sequences, but they were far and too few between.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 12:54 AM
I thought they cut away from her motionless and when they came back to the scene it was then that she got up (I do believe she groaned) and went into combat mode. But I'm not 100 % on that.

stillakid, are you serious in saying that Anakin's desire for her was bipolar, or are you exaggerating? Because I saw nothing bipolar in it, I believed he was full on lust to full on love with her.
Curious. :)

stillakid
05-31-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I thought they cut away from her motionless and when they came back to the scene it was then that she got up (I do believe she groaned) and went into combat mode. But I'm not 100 % on that.

I'll have to see again myself to be absolutely certain, but the way I remember was that she gets up really for no other reason than it was time to keep the movie going.



Originally posted by Caesar

stillakid, are you serious in saying that Anakin's desire for her was bipolar, or are you exaggerating? Because I saw nothing bipolar in it, I believed he was full on lust to full on love with her.
Curious. :)

No. I'm saying that his overall behavior in the story was bipolar. http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=88438#post88438

Specifically, in terms of his relationship with her, I found the entire thing to be incredibly forced. There was absolutely no real history between those two that would lead us to believe that they had been longing for one another all those years. TPM failed to set that up properly. Once we're into AOTC, her desire for him is unlikely in light of his bizarre mood swings. Maybe Lucas intended there to be a spark of love eminating from the screen, but I didn't buy it. I was suddenly in the middle of a Harlequin Romance novel, except that those take the time to establish a motive for attraction. AOTC did not.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 02:36 AM
Thanks. :)

Well, I think TPM does hint at Ani's crush for Padme, and she does tell him that her caring for him won't change. But obviously as they move on with their lives she is thinking about other things while he never lets go of his crush. The 10 year gap doesn't help the story in that respect though . . .
But mood swings? Maybe, but I don't think they are bizarre but rather quite natural. His mood may "swing", but his passion for Padme is quite constant.

I staunchly believe that some people are way too critical of the Anakin character and his "outbursts". I know of only one legitimate outburst, and that's after his mother's death. Make that 2, I forgot about Padme and her tumble from the gunship. Completely understandable. Then there is a situation below "outburst level", in which he whines to Padme about Obi-Wan. I like that it shows his strong desire for her to see him as a grown man, while he is acting the complete opposite. I've seen people do that in real life. And then there is the stuff between him and Obi-Wan . . . I didn't see any "outbursts" there, just flaring egos between a student and learner. That elevator scene is perfect in the sense that it shows they do respect each other but there's going to be some stiff moments.
All of the turmoil and the struggle within him, I don't like to see him labeled as bipolar. It suggests behavior of 'one way vs. another way', when I see so much more in the character.
He's got alot to deal with - his mother, his passion, his duties, his teacher, his abilities, his ego, that's quite a mixed bag. :cool:

JediTricks
05-31-2002, 02:58 AM
Stilla, I too wasn't impressed with her work in Ep 2, especially when I thought she did the best of all the actors in Ep 1. However, I don't think even bad acting can explain this scene, it just seems so whacked. I'll accept her running in the sand in high heels, but the way she's just lying there and then she pops up - it doesn't make sense.


Caesar, the shot goes off like this: we cut to Padme laying face down in the sand, she lays there for a few moments and a clone trooper runs up from the lower right of the screen and she turns around and pops up and utters a line like nothing happened to her at all even though she had been laying there for some time. It's just completely disjointed unless she's trying to lay still until help arrives, but if that's the case, nobody in the Vista theater last Saturday night saw any reason to believe that.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 03:08 AM
Face down? Hmm, I thought she was on her back . . . doesn't she moan though when getting up? I'm going again this weekend (of course :D ) and will examine further.

On a related note though, where did you think the clonetrooper came from? At first I thought he just conveniently came out of nowhere, but now I think it may have been that clone who fell out of the gunship with Padme. But the clone who fell looked dead when he landed; and that's when Padme' did her "stop, drop, and roll" down the hill. :crazed:

So whaddya think? Was the rescue clone dropped in out of nowhere or did the fallen clone "pull a Padme" and scamper down the hill after her?

Jargo
05-31-2002, 06:52 AM
I think the fact that Padme cannot in a million years know where they were heading and certainly not to a hangar is the most distracting aspect. They fly miles from the battle zone pursuing a madman on a scooter and he whizes off into the far distance with the cloneship following. how can Padme know where they are if she's been unconscious?
Acting aside, I think also that all the characters in these prequels stay way too clean. In the OT when characters got dirty they stayed dirty. Look at Leia's dress after she's been in the trash compactor - filthy. Padme stating clean is too ridiculous. Okay so it's dry sand she falls on but sand clings to clothing and her natural body moisture and perspiration would have made her jumpsuit wet with humidity and sand should have clung to it. There should also have been some kind of dirty marks on her suit from where she was lying. And no sand stuck to her back? hmmm.

Frankly this 5th element thing is puzzling when it's quite obvious that all movies have been using the designs from Metropolis freely and unashamedly. Bladerunner used the Metropolis influence, subsequent movies used bladerunner as influence. Lucas and team went back to Metropolis and even McQuarrie admits to being influenced by the designs from Metropolis. Fritz Lang did it first and did it better than than anything since. Coruscant is a pale imitation of metropolis.

I'm going to sit here and wait for the inter-continental guided missiles now. :D

Jedi Clint
05-31-2002, 01:03 PM
The way I remember the Padme in the sand scene is:

The scene cuts to Padme laying on her back in the sand. Her face is contorted and her head is slightly elevated. On the right hand side of the screen a Clone Trooper is walking toward her.

As the scene progresses Padme rises at a reasonable pace (she did not "jump up" IMO), her expression still showing discomfort, brushers herself off and talks to the clonetrooper. The Trooper asks if she is alright and suggests heading back to the base? She replies that they must get to the hanger.

I took her hanger comment as follows: Either she realized that Dooku was trying to escape (perhaps he was headed away from the battle and this was after the Republic had their opponents on the retreat) and figured he must have a ship located in a hanger in the direction they had been traveling. It appeared they were headed in a straight line. Or Padme was in touch with Anakin on a spiritual level and was given their location through psychic means. I'm leaning toward the former.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 01:13 PM
Jedi Clint, I agree that it's logical for her to assume Dooku was heading for a hangar since he was fleeing on a speeder . . . but the distance that they travel just feels way too long. Maybe if the Clone told her that they were heading for a hangar (since he might have communications in his helmet from the other gunship) it might have played out better.
But I think you're right about her not "popping up." :D

2-1B
06-01-2002, 11:31 PM
I watched it again, and the theory that she "Poof!" gets up has got to go. :D

Padme falls out, hits the sand, and rolls down the hill, coming to a stop lying face up while appearing unconscious. Cut to the Dooku chase and the screaming and yelling over going back for her, plus the arrival at the hangar and the encounter with Dooku. It's halfway thru the Obi-Wan vs. Dooku segment that the movie cuts back to Padme, still face up - eyes closed. She comes to, groans/winces/moans and slowly rises as the clone asks if she's alright. She whimpers a yes and then goes into General Padme mode, barking excitedly at the trooper. They run off . . .

But I still have no idea how the hell she knew to "get to that hangar." :D She made a good assumption though . . .

stillakid
06-02-2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
I watched it again, and the theory that she "Poof!" gets up has got to go. :D

Padme falls out, hits the sand, and rolls down the hill, coming to a stop lying face up while appearing unconscious. Cut to the Dooku chase and the screaming and yelling over going back for her, plus the arrival at the hangar and the encounter with Dooku. It's halfway thru the Obi-Wan vs. Dooku segment that the movie cuts back to Padme, still face up - eyes closed. She comes to, groans/winces/moans and slowly rises as the clone asks if she's alright. She whimpers a yes and then goes into General Padme mode, barking excitedly at the trooper. They run off . . .

But I still have no idea how the hell she knew to "get to that hangar." :D She made a good assumption though . . .

Okay, maybe the scene doesn't really play out like POOF! she gets up, but it sure feels that way. There is no story reason why she should just wake up at that moment other than the camera suddenly being on her. If the Clonetrooper had woken her or something. Speaking of that, where the Heck was he during the period of time when we are away watching the Dooka chase? Why does it take so bloody long for anyone to reach her? Was he knocked out too?

2-1B
06-02-2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Speaking of that, where the Heck was he during the period of time when we are away watching the Dooka chase? Why does it take so bloody long for anyone to reach her? Was he knocked out too?

I still haven't figured it out. Earlier in this thread I wondered if that was the same clone who fell out of the gunship with her . . . It could have been him (if she survived the fall, he must have! :D ) or someone from another ship. But if he was from another ship, I'd imagine there should have been more clones to her rescue. So for now I'll assume he was the same one in the gunship. :)

LTBasker
06-02-2002, 01:43 AM
Well considering she was wearing hardly anything and he fell a shorter distance and he's got that protective armor on plus he didn't go rollin' through the sand... My guess would be that he DID die just because he wasn't the "hero" gal with the tight suit. :p

Battle Droid
06-02-2002, 02:25 AM
What's up with the Destroyer Droids not having shields in the Arena?

LTBasker
06-02-2002, 03:42 PM
Maybe they figured they didn't need them, or they weren't installed yet.

Beast
06-02-2002, 04:09 PM
The shield also seem to restrict the movements of the droids, so that may be why they didnt have them in the arena. I think it's plausible, since in E1, that the droids stop moving when the shields snap on, and the shields drop, before they start chasing after Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

dr_evazan22
06-02-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
I doubt he could have sensed it...life creates the Force...and droids are not alive. ;)

This is a point that has kind of bothered me for a while.

If droids (and other "non-living" things, like rock) are not a part of the Force, then how is they can be affected by the Force? The whole midichlorian issue clouds this up a lot.

A long time ago, before there were the Prequels, I put a little thought (not a lot, just a little) into what the Clone Wars were about.

I hypothisized that the CW came about as a move for right-to-life/independence movement for clones, who would have been used in a similar fashion as droids.

Further, I thought that droids came in to a more general use. Then there is the issue of a droids place in the Force.
If a droid received regular memory wipes it would stay pretty much as an automaton w/ no personality.
As a droid went longer w/out a mem wipe it developed more of a personality, and even a certain amount of sentience.

R2 has a strong "presence" in the Force, in a similar way that Han has a strong presence.

This brings me back to Mace and the Super Droids. Why didn't Mace detect them? Don't Jedi have some kind of danger "Spider Sense"?

Jargo
06-02-2002, 05:54 PM
because as he states to Yoda, the jedi are losing their ability to use the force. he says it quite clearly and succinctly even adding that he should inform Chancellor Palpatine of this fact. I got that on my one and only viewing of the movie btw. :)

LTBasker
06-02-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
The shield also seem to restrict the movements of the droids, so that may be why they didnt have them in the arena. I think it's plausible, since in E1, that the droids stop moving when the shields snap on, and the shields drop, before they start chasing after Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. :)

Plus due to the confrontation with them and Qui & Obi on the Trade ship, since Qui & Obi ran maybe the Neimodians programmed them to not have to be as cautious around Jedi as they were then because the Jedi didn't want to take them on so while the Jedi were running it wouldn't take as long to roll up as it would with having to deactivate their shields and then rolling up.

JediTricks
06-02-2002, 07:31 PM
To borrow greatly from Yoda in ESB: The Force is an energy field that surrounds and penetrates the whole galaxy, life creates it and makes it grow, but it is not limited to existing in just living things. The Force is everywhere, in the rock, between the rock and the land, even in the land... but especially in the Force-user.

---

You know what small nit bugs me and sorta fits into this thread? That CG pear that Anakin moves with the Force - it not only looked terribly CG, but when Padme took a bite out of it, the whole thing was totally unreal. She doesn't move her lips around the food, she simply takes a small chomp out of thin air and a rather large, clean bite disappears from the pear. It isn't really "illogical" and has no bearing on the story, but it just reminds me that with all these special computer FX, things can still be just as unrealistic as they where puppets and miniatures.

Battle Droid
06-02-2002, 08:44 PM
It's pretty obvious that the jedi can still use the force, they do Force pushes in the Arena and Mace jumps into the Arena using the force, he couldn't live after a jump like that unless he was using the Force.

But I guess that's the Physical Force, not the Mental, or is it all the same?

2-1B
06-02-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
You know what small nit bugs me and sorta fits into this thread? That CG pear that Anakin moves with the Force - it not only looked terribly CG, but when Padme took a bite out of it, the whole thing was totally unreal. She doesn't move her lips around the food, she simply takes a small chomp out of thin air and a rather large, clean bite disappears from the pear. It isn't really "illogical" and has no bearing on the story, but it just reminds me that with all these special computer FX, things can still be just as unrealistic as they where puppets and miniatures.

A friend and I were in disagreement over that after a recent showing. It was way too fake for him, and while I agree that the bite feels "empty", at least they actually shoved the fruit in her mouth . . . so that doesn't really bother me. (JT, I'd say "chomp" is an accurate word here. :D ).

HOWEVER, I am bothered that Anakin cuts right down the middle, bisecting the fruit. But when he levitates it toward her, it's at most a third of the fruit, if not less. Maybe Hayden cut in the wrong place, they should have made sure to have him cut on the side. But since he didn't do it right, they should have placed the fruit on his plate unevenly. :)

stillakid
06-02-2002, 10:09 PM
Great idea, let's talk about the Force and the mechanics of it for a second! :)

Why do Maul, Dooka, Luke, and Yoda all have to stretch their arms out and "pull" or "push" at objects to make them move, yet Vader (in ESB) doesn't move a muscle before sending Luke out the window? He was tearing things out of the walls just like Dooka with nary a sweat (as far as we can tell ;) ).

And despite Yoda's beautiful soliloquey concerning the nature of the Force (in ESB), why are heavier objects more difficult to hold or move then lighter/smaller ones? Luke even says, "I can't, it's too big." Yoda replies, "No. No different. Only different in your mind." Yet the little guy nearly has a hernia holding that column in AOTC and again in ESB with the XWing.

Battle Droid
06-02-2002, 10:16 PM
Why do Maul, Dooka, Luke, and Yoda all have to stretch their arms out and "pull" or "push" at objects to make them move, yet Vader (in ESB) doesn't move a muscle before sending Luke out the window? He was tearing things out of the walls just like Dooka with nary a sweat (as far as we can tell ).

I guess Vader is just much stronger, and just has to think it to do it.



And despite Yoda's beautiful soliloquey concerning the nature of the Force (in ESB), why are heavier objects more difficult to hold or move then lighter/smaller ones? Luke even says, "I can't, it's too big." Yoda replies, "No. No different. Only different in your mind." Yet the little guy nearly has a hernia holding that column in AOTC and again in ESB with the X-Wing.

Yoda was wore out from his fight with Dooku.

scruffziller
06-02-2002, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by artdoesart
not sure if this is illogical......

but i thought having anakin riding the [dinosaur] turtle in the grass fields on naboo with padme was a bit ridiculous. not only did it look fake as hell, it was pointless.. sometimes i think lucas just does stuff because he can.. not really giving it any thought or not.. i mean there are much more simplier ways for anakin to roll in the hay with padme then going through that CG blunder..

but don't get me wrong i loved the movie.. but i am being fair.. i actually saw a lot of illogical parts however, the good far exceded the bad...
The Cgi may have been bad but him falling off of that creature was essential to the Anakin/Padme roll around in the meadow!
I think people are just not swallowing the fact that the individual we know as Darth Vader was a care-free happy pretty boy at one time.

stillakid
06-02-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by scruffziller

The Cgi may have been bad but him falling off of that creature was essential to the Anakin/Padme roll around in the meadow!
I think people are just not swallowing the fact that the individual we know as Darth Vader was a care-free happy pretty boy at one time.

The only reason a guy acts that goofy/stupid is to get into a chick's pants. That wasn't love onscreen. Closer to lust.;)

LTBasker
06-03-2002, 05:13 AM
Considering they pretty much kept acting like that even after the Tusken camp massacre.

Master Goeweins
06-03-2002, 06:03 PM
I agree with the pear biting sequence... it looked terrible. She took a bite and it kind of floated down her throat. Sometimes they just push things a little too far. And while I can't stand how bad it looked when Anakin fell off that bloated beast to roll with Padme in the grass, I did believe the intent in the storytelling. I just think that they push it.

As far as why Vader could just think to tear apart the walls and it took everyone else effort... Vader was the most powerful of them all. Yoda had to hide from him, Maul died easily by the hands of a then Padawan, Dooku already showed less than Yoda, and Luke wasn't even strong enough to finish the fight. If you can believe that Anakin surpasses everyone in midichlorians, then so is Vader.

notafinga
06-03-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Great idea, let's talk about the Force and the mechanics of it for a second! :)

Why do Maul, Dooka, Luke, and Yoda all have to stretch their arms out and "pull" or "push" at objects to make them move, yet Vader (in ESB) doesn't move a muscle before sending Luke out the window? He was tearing things out of the walls just like Dooka with nary a sweat (as far as we can tell ;) ).

And despite Yoda's beautiful soliloquey concerning the nature of the Force (in ESB), why are heavier objects more difficult to hold or move then lighter/smaller ones? Luke even says, "I can't, it's too big." Yoda replies, "No. No different. Only different in your mind." Yet the little guy nearly has a hernia holding that column in AOTC and again in ESB with the XWing.


Well Vader is moving his lightsaber to and fro, conducting the objects tearing off the walls and hurtling towards Luke like a fine symphony...

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 07:54 PM
Lust. A................................................. .................................................. ...........................BSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!

stillakid
06-03-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Master Goeweins
I agree with the pear biting sequence... it looked terrible. She took a bite and it kind of floated down her throat. Sometimes they just push things a little too far. And while I can't stand how bad it looked when Anakin fell off that bloated beast to roll with Padme in the grass, I did believe the intent in the storytelling. I just think that they push it.

As far as why Vader could just think to tear apart the walls and it took everyone else effort... Vader was the most powerful of them all. Yoda had to hide from him, Maul died easily by the hands of a then Padawan, Dooku already showed less than Yoda, and Luke wasn't even strong enough to finish the fight. If you can believe that Anakin surpasses everyone in midichlorians, then so is Vader.

Well, if we are to accept Midichlorian's as the reason for Ani/Vader's prowess, then he should not have lost the duel to Dooka. Yes, he's a newer Jedi etc etc, but if we are to fully accept that ridiculous concept of Midi's into the saga and use it as an explanation for Ani/Vader's superior abilities, then he should never lose a fight.

wedgeA
06-03-2002, 09:17 PM
Some comments:

TPM Anakin vs. AOTC Anakin- There is consistency between the two. In TPM, Anakin is irrational- his pod race plan is pretty wild, it's just that it was Qui Gon's only choice. He also rushes up to join the space battle, clearly in defiance. He is also very defensive about being a slave, and gets very touchy when Yoda discusses his mother. I think TPM laid ground work for the character he becomes in AOTC.

The Death Star: When building the first of anything, it takes a lot longer than to build replacements. Look at modern construction.

Yoda and the pillar: Remember in ESB, Yoda is Luke's mentor. He is not going to tell Luke "Yeah the ship is a lot bigger and harder to move", even if that is the truth. It would just re-enforce Luke's negativity and possiblity change the course of SW history. Good parents would never tell their children that they were dumb as wheat or ugly as a slug's *** even it were true, although it would be a lot funnier.

stillakid
06-03-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by wedgeA
Some comments:

TPM Anakin vs. AOTC Anakin- There is consistency between the two. In TPM, Anakin is irrational- his pod race plan is pretty wild, it's just that it was Qui Gon's only choice.

Not really irrational. Convoluted, definitely (see Rube Goldberg). But not irrational at all.


Originally posted by wedgeA

He also rushes up to join the space battle, clearly in defiance.

Did we watch the same movie? He didn't rush into battle. The ship took off by accident and flew there on it's own. The kid was goofin' off with the controls every step of the way and by pure LUCK managed to blow up the command ship. If it wasn't for "autopilot" he might have drifted in orbit for days.


Originally posted by wedgeA

He is also very defensive about being a slave, and gets very touchy when Yoda discusses his mother. I think TPM laid ground work for the character he becomes in AOTC.

That one tiny (poorly acted instance) was a dot in a sea of goody-two shoes kid stuff (remember: Yippee!) The groundwork necessary to establish Anakin's character in AOTC as well as the love affair between Padme and him was not properly or adequately laid down in TPM.


Originally posted by wedgeA

The Death Star: When building the first of anything, it takes a lot longer than to build replacements. Look at modern construction.


Perhaps, yet the Death Star II was supposedly twice (?) as large as the original. This would have necessitated all new plans to be drawn up and at least twice the time to construct once the plans were finalized. That is, unless they had twice as many workers, in which case it would have taken an equal amount of time to build, which is still longer than the saga timeline truly allows for. But, of course if they had 4X as many workers....


Originally posted by wedgeA

Yoda and the pillar: Remember in ESB, Yoda is Luke's mentor. He is not going to tell Luke "Yeah the ship is a lot bigger and harder to move", even if that is the truth. It would just re-enforce Luke's negativity and possiblity change the course of SW history. Good parents would never tell their children that they were dumb as wheat or ugly as a slug's *** even it were true, although it would be a lot funnier.

I don't believe that that is what Yoda was getting at. I'm willing to take his words and his actions at face value to accept both that a) size matters not, and b) sometimes it does. What he was saying was that a large object could still be moved, but you have to try a little harder. Not applying yourself will always result in failure. That was Luke's downfall. He didn't believe it, and as Yoda chastises him, he says, "That is why you fail." He didn't not tell Luke it was harder to move because of his negativity. Yoda didn't tell him that because it wasn't the point.

pthfnder89
06-04-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Well, if we are to accept Midichlorian's as the reason for Ani/Vader's prowess, then he should not have lost the duel to Dooka. Yes, he's a newer Jedi etc etc, but if we are to fully accept that ridiculous concept of Midi's into the saga and use it as an explanation for Ani/Vader's superior abilities, then he should never lose a fight.

I don't see that as necessarily being true. The way I look at it, Midichlorians are simply *potential* power. Without training they won't make him a powerful Jedi all by themselves. If that was true then he would hardly have needed any training at all.

Sort of like muscle builders. They could have pecs the size of small grapefruits, and that gives them an advantage in a fight. But a highly focused kickboxer or something could still defeat one in a fight because the bodybuilder doesn't have any fight training, he just has muscles.

Midichlorians give Anakin an advantage but sometimes there are more important things than that. (Although despite these reasons, I still don't think Anakin/Vader is necessarily the most powerful Jedi ever. )

As for Yodas slight lack of Force power compared to ESB there are a couple of possibilities.
A) He was partly concentrating on fighting as well whereas in ESB he was able to put all his concentration on the task at hand.
B) The Jedi in AOTC are having problems using the Force as well as they should because of the Dark Side rising in power. By ESB Yoda may have learned to get around that, or maybe the Emperor isn't mudddling with the Force as much or whatnot. It's hard to tell since they are so vague in AOTC.:)

pthfnder89
06-04-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks

---

You know what small nit bugs me and sorta fits into this thread? That CG pear that Anakin moves with the Force - it not only looked terribly CG, but when Padme took a bite out of it, the whole thing was totally unreal. She doesn't move her lips around the food, she simply takes a small chomp out of thin air and a rather large, clean bite disappears from the pear. It isn't really "illogical" and has no bearing on the story, but it just reminds me that with all these special computer FX, things can still be just as unrealistic as they where puppets and miniatures.

I'm glad that this bugged someone else too. I didn't mention it to my friends because they wouldn't care but everytime I see the pear sequence it just annoys me to no end.:rolleyes: It's funny how something that small can get your attention when it's done wrong.

wedgeA
06-04-2002, 01:32 PM
stillakid,

OK, I'll concede that point on the pod race, however

1) in the space battle, when r2 turns off the auto pilot, he asks Anakin to go back to Naboo, and he clearly refuses that option. Also, his actions in the fighter show that he is willing to defy orders for Padme. It is obvious that when Qui Gon told him to stay in the cockpit, he did not intend for Anakin to get involved at all. Also, it is established that Anakin's motivations for becoming a Jedi are misplaced (adventure, excitement, escaping a harsh life, etc). I would say that making Anakin so young in TPM was a problem, as it is hard to credibly establish later traits, especially the more sinister ones, but I would not say that they were non-existent.

2) As for the Death Star, until Episode III, there is no ultimate answer, but my theory would be that the Empire in ESB and ROTJ would have much more resources than the separatists.

3) As for Yoda, I agree with your point that you can move anything but the effort is greater, it was established in the film. However, there were many here who screamed contradiction, and in way they're right- either size matters or it does not, I don't see where you can say both are true. I just think that given Luke's personality, Yoda would have said this in order remove a roadblock in his mind (it's too big...).

wedgeA
06-04-2002, 01:32 PM
Oh and BTW, I did hate the C3P0 head switch, something best left for the Holiday Special.

Jonna
06-04-2002, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by wedgeA
Oh and BTW, I did hate the C3P0 head switch, something best left for the Holiday Special.

Ha! Did you see that special from the 70's. It was one of the worst things I have ever seen!:crazed:

wedgeA
06-04-2002, 02:45 PM
Jonna,

I got it on tape from a friend and I only got about half way through it, but I will finish it after I regain my strength. Words cannot express how bad it is, and after seeing it, I can see why Lucas abandoned the planet of Wookiees idea from ROTJ.

Beast
06-04-2002, 02:59 PM
WedgeA, just wait til you get to the part where Princess Leia sings words to the Star Wars theme. *shudder* If you're over 21, I suggest a stiff drink to help you thru that song. The cartoon is the only thing with any redeeming quality, and I wish Lucas would atleast stick it on a supliment DVD with the 2005-2006 release of the movies. :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

RooJay
06-04-2002, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by pthfnder89


I don't see that as necessarily being true. The way I look at it, Midichlorians are simply *potential* power. Without training they won't make him a powerful Jedi all by themselves. If that was true then he would hardly have needed any training at all.

Sort of like muscle builders. They could have pecs the size of small grapefruits, and that gives them an advantage in a fight. But a highly focused kickboxer or something could still defeat one in a fight because the bodybuilder doesn't have any fight training, he just has muscles.

Midichlorians give Anakin an advantage but sometimes there are more important things than that. (Although despite these reasons, I still don't think Anakin/Vader is necessarily the most powerful Jedi ever. )

As for Yodas slight lack of Force power compared to ESB there are a couple of possibilities.
A) He was partly concentrating on fighting as well whereas in ESB he was able to put all his concentration on the task at hand.
B) The Jedi in AOTC are having problems using the Force as well as they should because of the Dark Side rising in power. By ESB Yoda may have learned to get around that, or maybe the Emperor isn't mudddling with the Force as much or whatnot. It's hard to tell since they are so vague in AOTC.:)

Thank you! I concur. This IS the obvious, logical explanation.

2-1B
06-05-2002, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
WedgeA, just wait til you get to the part where Princess Leia sings words to the Star Wars theme. *shudder* If you're over 21, I suggest a stiff drink to help you thru that song. The cartoon is the only thing with any redeeming quality, and I wish Lucas would atleast stick it on a supliment DVD with the 2005-2006 release of the movies. :D


Regardless of your age, I suggest you throw down a few shots . . . hey, if you are old enough to sit thru that special, you're old enough to drink. :D

Although if you drink too much, you may actually like the show. :eek:

RooJay
06-06-2002, 02:58 PM
The bootleg copy I have also has a lot of WAY cool vintage commercials also! Yet another redeeming value for me!:happy: They're even cooler than the Special itself!

"TOBOR is ROBOT spelled backwards!"

Ah, how easy it must've been to sell things back in those days!

2-1B
06-07-2002, 03:26 AM
I never watched The Fifth Element, so the posts way back around pages 6 and 7 of this thread made me curious to watch it . . . and I have to say I'm not convinced that the similarities are obvious. There were 2 parts during Bruce's Taxi chase that reminded me of AOTC:

the way he weaves thru traffic for one shot reminded me of the speeders swerving to avoid the flames in AOTC, and

his downward descent thru traffic lanes was pretty similar.

But the few similarities are so minor that I can't honestly consider 5th E next time I watch AOTC. If anything, AOTC expands on those shots. Changelings? They seem to be a tired rehash in sci-fi, neither film in question did them with much conviction IMO.

I did catch a few things that reminded me of the OT, the female military lady with the hair buns and the way the 5th E floats out of the place in Egypt - reminded me of a Carbonite block floating thru Bespin. :happy:

But still, it was a fun experiment, although 5th E itself was not too engrossing for me. Bruce was good as Korben Dallas / John McClaine, Milla is super fine, Gary Oldman was great as usual, and Chris Tucker was irritating for the most part but he cracked me up once or twice. Oh! and I swear I heard a "Willhelm" in there ! ! ! :D (heading over to that thread now . . . )

Beast
06-07-2002, 03:32 AM
Well said Caesar. And for anyone intrested, multilevel flying traffic in a big city first appeared in a little German moving called Metropolis, back in 1927. :p So saying that Lucas was copying it from 5th Element is silly. More likely, since he is a big fan of older black and white sci-fi, comedies, and seriels, it was an omage to that film. After all, C-3PO was originally based on Futura (The Robot) from that film as well. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

stillakid
06-07-2002, 10:01 AM
Once more...once more...it isn't about any SINGLE shot, but rather a series of rather very very very similar shots, beginning with the opening shot of both films, that paint the picture. This may or may not be Lucas's doing, as his FX artists may have a considerable amount of leeway in designing the shots that make it to screen.



Oops, sorry guys. I've been facing the wrong way....and talking to a brick wall all this time. I'll turn around now...;)

Jonna
06-07-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Well said Caesar. And for anyone intrested, multilevel flying traffic in a big city first appeared in a little German moving called Metropolis, back in 1927. :p So saying that Lucas was copying it from 5th Element is silly. More likely, since he is a big fan of older black and white sci-fi, comedies, and seriels, it was an omage to that film. After all, C-3PO was originally based on Futura (The Robot) from that film as well. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Great, now I am picturing C3PO with Breasts. Thanks a lot!:mad:

stillakid
06-07-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Jonna


Great, now I am picturing C3PO with Breasts. Thanks a lot!:mad:

That's for Episode VII, when 3PO finally gets some. :crazed:

Beast
06-07-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Jonna
Great, now I am picturing C3PO with Breasts. Thanks a lot!:mad:
Well, Ralph McQuarrie's concept art of C-3PO was more female, and much closer to Futura from "Metropolis" then the final version. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jonna
06-07-2002, 01:37 PM
Alright, this isn't important enough to start a new thread over But I just wanted to know if anyone else thinks that Ki-Adi-Mudi is actually Sigmund Freud in disquise?

"Your thoughts dwell on your mother."

JediTricks
06-07-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
I never watched The Fifth Element, so the posts way back around pages 6 and 7 of this thread made me curious to watch it . . . and I have to say I'm not convinced that the similarities are obvious. There were 2 parts during Bruce's Taxi chase that reminded me of AOTC:

the way he weaves thru traffic for one shot reminded me of the speeders swerving to avoid the flames in AOTC, and

his downward descent thru traffic lanes was pretty similar.

But the few similarities are so minor that I can't honestly consider 5th E next time I watch AOTC. If anything, AOTC expands on those shots. See, those are the points I was talking about originally (though I see other similarities, I initially only mentioned this part), but for me, they were so striking because I had never seen anything quite like it cinematically that it was burned into my mind. Not only that, but since the film is fairly recent, it's not just a fuzzy background memory, it's REALLY clear stuff.

BTW, just to clarify my position on things, Lucas has said many times that ANH and SW in general are basically a "patchwork" of stories from other myths and films -- I have absolutely no problem with that, it's just when it's something very RECENT that I think there's something hinky about it.


Jonna, that's an Ep 1 question! :D But it would explain his rather... oddly-shaped head, I bet I know what Freud would say about that... AND THAT!!! Oh no, I'm caught in a Freudian-causality-loop! :crazed:

2-1B
06-08-2002, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Once more...once more...it isn't about any SINGLE shot, but rather a series of rather very very very similar shots, beginning with the opening shot of both films, that paint the picture. This may or may not be Lucas's doing, as his FX artists may have a considerable amount of leeway in designing the shots that make it to screen.

Oops, sorry guys. I've been facing the wrong way....and talking to a brick wall all this time. I'll turn around now...;)

Give me a pass for now on the opening sequences - I , uh, wasn't really attentive right at the beginning - I still have the tape and will rewatch the beginning.

No, no, I do understand that you think there's a lot of similar shots, I just went into it looking for similarities and didn't find as many as I was interpreting from those posts of awhile back. Literally, whenever a shot reminded me of AOTC I kept a checklist in my head . . . I admit to watching AOTC 13 times (so far ;) ) and I was surprised that more shots didn't jar my suspicions. But let me get back to ya on the opening shots. :)


JediTricks
See, those are the points I was talking about originally (though I see other similarities, I initially only mentioned this part), but for me, they were so striking because I had never seen anything quite like it cinematically that it was burned into my mind. Not only that, but since the film is fairly recent, it's not just a fuzzy background memory, it's REALLY clear stuff.

BTW, just to clarify my position on things, Lucas has said many times that ANH and SW in general are basically a "patchwork" of stories from other myths and films -- I have absolutely no problem with that, it's just when it's something very RECENT that I think there's something hinky about it.

Hey, I agree that the 5 years since 5th E are too close to be borrowing from, if that was the case. I considered your theory that they might have cut and pasted the building models . . . it's very possible (do you know what FX company did 5th E ? ), yes I can see that they are similar in height and feel. Although they both have a different look to me, Coruscant had a pretty sleek futuristic (even though it's in the past) look to it, but NYC buildings in 5th E, while futuristic, had some cool detailing that gave them an old city feel, much less sleek. I think the simplest way I can describe it is "brick vs. metal", if that makes any sense. :D

I'd be curious to hear any other similarities that you found. :)

stillakid
06-08-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

I considered your theory that they might have cut and pasted the building models . . . it's very possible (do you know what FX company did 5th E ? ),


I'd be curious to hear any other similarities that you found. :)

5th Element was Digital Domain and Vision Crew Unlimited. The trick would be trying to cross-reference all of the digital artists and supervisors to find anyone who worked on both films. But in the end, it is GL who approves the final composites and concepts.

I'm going to see Ep II again on Sunday with the kids, so I'll try to take some notes for specifics. :)

2-1B
06-09-2002, 08:43 PM
As promised, I rewatched that opening scene of Fifth Element and I also watched AOTC again today. Yes, they do feel similar in the fact that they both pan up and rotate to a new angle on the planet.

5th E pans up to Earth and turns 90 degrees, settling with the planet on the left. The ship of the protectors then enters the shot from the right, approaching the planet.
AOTC pans up to Coruscant, and essentially turns 180 degrees with the Naboo starships which enter from the middle.

The two shots have a similar feel, yet I think they are distinctive enough.

stillakid, were you able to see the flick again today? :)

stillakid
06-10-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Caesar


stillakid, were you able to see the flick again today? :)

Yes, I did. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I got to the theater (with the brood) with 20 seconds to spare. Whew. Got a shi**y seat too. But that close, I could really see the bad "noise" in a lot of the "blacks" during several sequences. I still haven't made it out to a digi screening yet. Sometime this week I hope.

pthfnder89
06-10-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Caesar

Hey, I agree that the 5 years since 5th E are too close to be borrowing from, if that was the case. I considered your theory that they might have cut and pasted the building models . . . it's very possible (do you know what FX company did 5th E ? ), yes I can see that they are similar in height and feel. Although they both have a different look to me, Coruscant had a pretty sleek futuristic (even though it's in the past) look to it, but NYC buildings in 5th E, while futuristic, had some cool detailing that gave them an old city feel, much less sleek. I think the simplest way I can describe it is "brick vs. metal", if that makes any sense. :D


I totally agree Ceasar. The buildings in 5th Element (one of my favorite films BTW:)) actually look very much like modern day New York, just scaled massively taller. And Ceasar nailed it right on the head with the "brick vs metal" comparison. The 5th E buildings look to me like they're made out of concrete and brick in some places (even though at that height brick *might* not be a good building material ;))

The Coruscant buildings have a very sleek futuristic feel. Especially some of the wierder shaped ones.

dirtybones
06-10-2002, 12:49 AM
Your all making somthing out of nothing, the movie was great for what it was. You to take it for what it is and not for what you what it to be. The story fits, and the story is told in the best way it should be, Lucas's way.

2-1B
06-10-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Yes, I did. Due to circumstances beyond my control, I got to the theater (with the brood) with 20 seconds to spare. Whew. Got a shi**y seat too. But that close, I could really see the bad "noise" in a lot of the "blacks" during several sequences. I still haven't made it out to a digi screening yet. Sometime this week I hope.

Ouch!
A few weeks ago we got there fairly late for a showing and were stuck in the very first row, in front of a pretty large screen. I know there have been some criticisms about how the backgrounds appear fuzzy around the characters . . . and while I could see that argument from my primo seats, I COMPLETELY got it while sitting there so closely. The first example that come to mind is Anakin in the Jedi Council, with the white light from the window giving that fuzzy look around his cloak. I'm assuming the DVD will be better in this regard, as I've heard (from Tycho, maybe?) that digital shots look better. Maybe that will be the case "noise" you saw? I hope so! :)

stillakid
06-10-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Caesar


Ouch!
A few weeks ago we got there fairly late for a showing and were stuck in the very first row, in front of a pretty large screen. I know there have been some criticisms about how the backgrounds appear fuzzy around the characters . . . and while I could see that argument from my primo seats, I COMPLETELY got it while sitting there so closely. The first example that come to mind is Anakin in the Jedi Council, with the white light from the window giving that fuzzy look around his cloak. I'm assuming the DVD will be better in this regard, as I've heard (from Tycho, maybe?) that digital shots look better. Maybe that will be the case "noise" you saw? I hope so! :)

The noise in the blacks was definitely not your standard film grain. I'm no engineer, but it looks like an artifact left over from the camera trying to "dig into" those dark areas. I'd seen a couple of 24P demo's (before AOTC came out) but hadn't noticed that problem. But the majority of the noise that I saw was evident in shots with either high contrast ratios or very low-lit sets (ie, the fireplace scene).

I've been told by those who have seen the digital that not only does that go away but the fx blend in much better as well. I can't wait to find out.

chewiegurl1138
06-10-2002, 10:57 PM
well, cosidering AOTC was a kick *** movie, the scene that mostly annoyed me was the frolic scene (aka the meadow scene with anakin and padme) that was just completely stupid! There was no point to it. :dead:

another thing that annoyed me was when anakin lands on the reek. I can live with padme's landing but anakin just lands on it and doesnt even twitch...He's the GUY for god's sakes!!!


The death star has been annoying me ever since i saw it... I know that EU stuff isnt canon but shouldnt they make it somewhat logical? First, admiral daala is the one who supposedly designs the death star (from Jedi Search) and now, the geonosians have the plans? One could argue that Daala still did it, but how if she was tarkin's lover and that was the only way neone would pay attention to her ideas? :confused:

I wont even get into the whole dinotopia/5th element crap bc I believe that GL is the greatest and EVERY SINGLE DIRECTOR COPIES OFF EACHOTHER! :sur:

Then there's the Padme fall in the sand... It is the funniest thing I have ever seen on earth... First she falls, OMG, right off a Vehicle that's going like more than 50mph and lands on the sand, rolls around and is supposedly knocked down. Then she miracously gets up and knows where anakin is? Then she runs off-->Which BTW is the funniest part of all...she looks constipated or something!

Newayz, that's my input for the day, tis late...i'm gonna go pop in star wars before i go 2 bed...all this thinking makes my head hurt

George is the best!!!!

LTBasker
06-10-2002, 11:31 PM
Powerful in the force, Anakin is. Powerful enough to protect his own midichlorians with the force he is. ;)

RooJay
06-11-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by chewiegurl1138
The death star has been annoying me ever since i saw it... I know that EU stuff isnt canon but shouldnt they make it somewhat logical? First, admiral daala is the one who supposedly designs the death star (from Jedi Search) and now, the geonosians have the plans? One could argue that Daala still did it, but how if she was tarkin's lover and that was the only way [no one] would pay attention to her ideas? :confused:


Actually, it was a guy named Bevel Lemelisk who designed the Death Star in the EU. I'm unclear as to what Daala's role in the Death Star's creation was, but who's to say that all of this didn't actually happen and the Geonosians just happen to be the guys contracted to build the thing? Besides George Lucas I mean. Until we see any of this happen on film the whole thing is fair game for us to imagine as we see fit in my opinion!

chewiegurl1138
06-11-2002, 10:51 AM
Well, Bevel Lemelisk was part of the team in the Maw Installation, led by Admiral Daala...but she's the one that came up with it, according to the book...w/e tis too confusing to think about.


Either way, the Death Star was Tarkin's idea, so maybe he IS behind all of this??? Maybe we WILL see him in Episode 3?!?!? :D

SunCrusher
06-11-2002, 11:29 AM
It has been confirmed by the producer (Mcallum? can't remember the name) that Tarkin won't be in the next movie, which doesn't make any sense to me. If I were Lucas, I'd at least try to make the movies relate if possible to the books.

Beast
06-11-2002, 11:47 AM
Suncrusher, McCallum doesn't know anything. He's always opening his lips and sticking his foot into his yap. He also has stated in the past that Boba Fett wasn't going to be in the prequels. Lucas himself said, that there is a possibility of cameos from Tarkin, Mothma, and Chewie, if he can slip them in, and not have them seem forced. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

pthfnder89
06-11-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by chewiegurl1138
The death star has been annoying me ever since i saw it... I know that EU stuff isnt canon but shouldnt they make it somewhat logical? First, admiral daala is the one who supposedly designs the death star (from Jedi Search) and now, the geonosians have the plans? One could argue that Daala still did it, but how if she was tarkin's lover and that was the only way neone would pay attention to her ideas? :confused:



I'm glad he ignored the EU origin of the Death Star. It was ridiculous and hopefully will be buried and forgotten. :)

Exhaust Port
06-11-2002, 11:56 AM
George Lucas has always said that he has the right to re-write the "history" set by the EU when he needs to. Some of the EU story lines are awful in my opinion would love to have them erased.

Master Goeweins
06-11-2002, 12:31 PM
I agree that some of the EU is just plain awful, Shadows of the Empire seemed more like a marketing ploy than anything that added weight to the original myth. But, there have been some really good things, namely in the novels. Aproaching Storm was a very nice small adventure that gave a little of a hint of things to come in ATOC, but Cloaked Deception was really good. And it had a younger General Tarkin in the mix. It was a story that gave huge insight into the master plan of Sidious. A great read for depth. I think after that storyline, GL could easily put Tarkin in Ep. III without it being pushed. Come on Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were barely in ATOC, but they were there!

RooJay
06-11-2002, 12:54 PM
Thanks JJB! I'd like to add to that what I have brought up a few times in the past, that McCallum has made several statements about what will and won't be in the movies that have turned out to be wrong. I remember that he had been rather adamantly stating that we would definitely not see Yoda fight in Episode 2! Thank goodness he turned out to be wrong on that point!;)

RooJay
06-11-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Master Goeweins
...Shadows of the Empire seemed more like a marketing ploy than anything that added weight to the original myth.

Amen to that! It's just really too bad the book was poorly written, the storyline was rather awful and poorly thought out, and all of the involved parties couldn't seem to agree on some of the details, seemed to get cold feet, and didn't seem to want to support the concept in the end! What might've been a pretty good event ended up a non-event, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the game, and the characters for the most part, and I certainly enjoyed the figures, even though Dash Rendar could've looked a bit more "Star Wars" to me, Prince Xizor didn't look a whole lot like the book described him, and Coruscant Guard Luke seem to come way out of left field for some reason! Don't even get me started on Snoova! Come to think of it, most of the figures kinda sucked too!

Master Goeweins
06-11-2002, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I think the the figures really sucked! The only thing good to even come from the Shadows catastrophe was Dash Rendar's ship the Outrider. Other than that... nada.

LTBasker
06-11-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by RooJay
Thanks JJB! I'd like to add to that what I have brought up a few times in the past, that McCallum has made several statements about what will and won't be in the movies that have turned out to be wrong. I remember that he had been rather adamantly stating that we would definitely not see Yoda fight in Episode 2! Thank goodness he turned out to be wrong on that point!;)

Wasn't it also said by McCallum (or someone) that Mace wouldn't be fighting either? Guess it was just a clone who lopped off Jango's head. :D

RooJay
06-12-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Master Goeweins
Yeah, I think the the figures really sucked! The only thing good to even come from the Shadows catastrophe was Dash Rendar's ship the Outrider. Other than that... nada.

I even think they seriously dropped the ball on the Outrider. What a disappointment that was! Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the one I bought, but it just could have been so much cooler! Easily!

DeadEye
06-13-2002, 08:51 AM
They cut out a lot of good fight scenes, especially the duels with good ol' Hertius. And AOTC is already the longest SW film of them all, and it was still packed to the brim despite all its cut scenes. So why waste precious screen time with:

-The picnic frolic?

-The stupid dinner scene with the flying fruit?

-C-3PO's head switch?

chewiegurl1138
06-13-2002, 09:39 PM
I agree...the damn frolic scene!!! AAAAAHHHHH!!!!

SunCrusher
06-13-2002, 10:11 PM
Episode 2 gets worse every time I think about it. Hmm, that's exactly what happened to me with Episode 1!

LTBasker
06-14-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by DeadEye
They cut out a lot of good fight scenes, especially the duels with good ol' Hertius. And AOTC is already the longest SW film of them all, and it was still packed to the brim despite all its cut scenes. So why waste precious screen time with:

-The picnic frolic?

-The stupid dinner scene with the flying fruit?

-C-3PO's head switch?

I agree. The main problem I have with the 3PO scene is it was way too "coincidental" and "kiddy."

It should've been more like:
3PO trips over a wire or something on the floor in the droid factory in which he falls and hits his head on a machine and he lays there decapitated when a "clean up" droid comes along and scans 3PO, not really being programmed to notice the difference from Battle Droid pieces that have fallen off the conveyor belts or out of the head bins and "alien" droids, the clean up droid picks up 3PO's body and it's head and puts them in the places they should be in. There could've also been some Battle Droid parts that had fallen into the aisle which 3PO was in to show that the clean up Droid was there to put that stuff back onto the conveyor belts and such.

Making it to where kids would laugh at the scene is ok, it's just it kinda ruined it from all that CGI that made it really too cartoonish.

As for the "flying fruit" scene, I don't get why they didn't just put a real piece of fruit on a green rod so that Portman could REALLY bite into it.

JediTricks
06-14-2002, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by DeadEye
They cut out a lot of good fight scenes, especially the duels with good ol' Hertius. And AOTC is already the longest SW film of them all, and it was still packed to the brim despite all its cut scenes. So why waste precious screen time with:

-The picnic frolic?

-The stupid dinner scene with the flying fruit?

-C-3PO's head switch? Yeah, I had similar feelings when watching it. In Ep 1, some scenes were trimmed down for a few precious extra seconds. In AOTC, stuff like seeing the oncoming CGI cartoon characters react to the speeder chase seemed like a waste of a few seconds; the 15 seconds (maybe more!) of watching the Royal cruiser fly through the clouds during its final approach to the landing platform seemed really unnecessary since it was originally supposed to have Palpatine watch the ship flying in but that part was cut; other stuff like that and what you described really seemed somewhat wasteful when so many other elements needed better focus IMO.

JediTricks
06-16-2002, 04:27 PM
As we earlier surmised here, Zam Wesell was not originally supposed to be a Clawdite shape-changer. According to sw.com, this change came well after principle photography had begun, and it required some pick-up shots to make this change. http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/clawdite/bts.html

(Also, what's with that different face on Zam here? http://www.starwars.com/databank/species/clawdite/eu.html )

2-1B
06-16-2002, 10:43 PM
Going off of JT's Zam info, did anyone else notice how when Anakin says "I think she's a changeling" his mouth looks and sounds like he is finishing with an "M" sound? I kept thinking that maybe he said "changeling, master" and they just poorly edited the "master" out of the final cut. Now I want to know if that scene was done before the design changes or if it's a pick-up shot.

Zolanders? As in, Derek Zolanders? :rolleyes:

DeadEye
06-17-2002, 08:47 AM
Well, it's Derek Zoolander, but the similarity is clear.

2-1B
06-17-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by DeadEye
Well, it's Derek Zoolander, but the similarity is clear.

Yeah, I know it has 2 "o"s. :rolleyes:

JediTricks
06-17-2002, 05:16 PM
Caesar, perhaps it takes seeing the film 16 times to notice that "m" sound. ;) J/k, but I didn't notice that.

The EU part of Zam's listing seems to have some stuff that appears to be pre-Ep 2 stuff in it, is it possible that Zolan and Clawdites came from EU and were added to Zam's character as a "nod&wink" a la the Outrider in ANH:SE? I don't know EU that well, that's why I ask.

OneArmedJango
06-19-2002, 05:01 PM
Hey this is the first time I've posted in this part of the fourms. Well I have to things to say.

1: I don't think that episode II was asbad as eps. I. This one had much cooler parts, like everything after the first half.

2: There were two lines that I just hate. When C3PO is in the arena and R2 gets his head. "Oh this is such a drag." that was so stupid. And also when C3PO says "Oh, I'm beside my self" in the arena.

Just wanted to jive my 2 scence.
-One

SunCrusher
06-19-2002, 05:03 PM
Lucas needs to stop with the pathetic humor and just write a good movie for episode 3. Of course from what i hear there will be no humor in episode 3.

LTBasker
06-19-2002, 05:10 PM
Sure there will, Portman will be "acting" again with green screen stages. :p

SunCrusher
06-19-2002, 05:12 PM
Ahaha, you never know, with Lucas he might make Padme completely computer generated :crazed:

BenQuad
06-21-2002, 08:02 PM
Don't you just hate it?........ I read through a 14 page thread and, after a six month+ absence from posting, can find nothing interesting/pertinent to add. :)

Ah bless.......its good to be back. :)

JediTricks
06-22-2002, 03:07 AM
You might even call that... "illogical". ;) :D

Darkross
01-31-2003, 10:45 AM
I know that there are several scenes in AOTC that don't make sense...however one in particular always stands out when I watch AOTC.

The Hangar Duel:

Anakin defends Obi-Wan with his green lightsaber...and then when Obi-Wan tosses his blue lightsaber to Anakin...he graps it in his left hand and ignites it and the battle ensues with Dooku. However if you watch carefully...in the midst of Anakin's twirling with both sabers...he ends up with the green lightsaber in his left hand not his right hand as previously shown. Now this scene is shot all together with no camera deviations...and Dooku destroys the green saber...and Anakin is left with only the blue lightsaber.

What the ??? Anyone else ever notice this?

Darkross
01-31-2003, 10:49 AM
Another thing that I noticed is why does Jango only have one blaster after the Kamino escape?

He clearly fires two blasters at Obi-Wan...and then must holter them when after he jets away from Obi-Wan and fires his backpack rocket at Obi-Wan. Jango does drop one blaster when fighting Obi-Wan...but when after Jango crashes...he picks up his fallen blaster and shoots at Obi-Wan...so when Obi-Wan kicks him off of the platform...did Jango's blaster fall off of the platform also? This seems to be the only explanation that I can see for this... any ideas?