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bigbarada
09-13-2001, 11:56 PM
At TF.N they have an article in which GL describes how he created the midichlorians to restore the idea of the Force back to how he originally concieved it. He says that it was always meant to resemble genetics more than spirituality. He also says that it's unfair to judge the matter until everyone has seen Ep2 and 3.

Thoughts? Truth or revisionist history?

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=12274

Eternal Padawan
09-14-2001, 01:48 AM
"And Greedo was always supposed to shoot first..."

This is clearly revisioninst history because I have a taped PBS special with Bill Moyers where "GL" is talking about religion as metaphor in his Star Wars Trilogy after Phantom Menace came out...and he was still calling the Force a nondenominational "higher power" So either he's bunk, or he's senile. And I read a cool interview on www.thedigitalbits.com where they are talking to everybody at Lucasfilm from Georgie on down about the DVD. Anyway, he said he used to surf the net all the time, but got sick off all the BS and negativity so now he doesn't. Pretty cool.

JediTricks
09-14-2001, 12:57 PM
That's not the first time Lucas has done this, trying to change history to fit his events. I think he feels like since he has ultimate control of a company, that he has the right to change the past of that company and its products.


I don't believe Uncle George on this one for a second.

stillakid
09-14-2001, 02:14 PM
Well, obviously it's revisionist history. If he wants to produce some old notes or an old draft of the story that proves that it was an old idea then fine. Otherwise, all the evidence points to the contrary.

What's more interesting is that our messages actually seem to get through the castle walls. Who knows which messages or threads that he ever read or when, but clearly enough people bagged on the Midichlorians that he recognizes the need to address the issue. Too little, too late I think. But, whatever.

2-1B
09-16-2001, 01:49 AM
I was hoping the topic would be ignored in the next two films, just to keep it from getting even more goofy. Guess not!

bigbarada
09-16-2001, 09:58 PM
I've never really had a problem with the midichlorians, since the Force was never really the most interesting aspect of SW to me. I've always liked the battles and the vehicle designs and the costume designs best. Plus, I would prefer that further explanation be given to them rather than just abandon the idea, leaving TPM flapping in the wind. If GL says he wants the Force to mirror genetics then fine, it's been no secret that Luke was never just your average farmboy. Plus if you look at most mythology, the hero is very rarely an average Joe. Some of the most popular mythological characters are so much more than human. For instance: Hercules-half god/half human; Thor-god; King Arthur-divinely appointed king. Even modern mythology, comic book heroes, very rarely start out as average humans. So, if GL feels the need to rewrite history, as it seems, then let him do it. It's his story and we expect him to craft it as best he can so if he must muck with the pre-established elements then let's just hope the finished product is worth it.

stillakid
09-16-2001, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
It's his story and we expect him to craft it as best he can so if he must muck with the pre-established elements then let's just hope the finished product is worth it.

Though I'll agree to disagree on Luke being more than human as we saw him in 1977, I'll give a "here, here" to the above portion ... primarily because we have no choice. He has no choice but to give a really really good explanation of these things and just a wee bit more magic so that we "complainers" can find some way to weave the ridiculous idea into the original trilogy as we know it...that is to say, unless he decides to CGI Midis into the DVD releases of the original trilogy.

Suffice it to say, he wrote himself into a corner, thought we'd be stupid enough to not notice, and is fighting his way back out.

bigbarada
09-16-2001, 10:16 PM
If you look at ANH all by itself and with no knowledge of any other episodes or SE's, then yes I understand how he could be an average, highly-gifted farmboy. However, in ESB once we saw him use the Force to pull his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave, then everyone knew there was something special (almost para-normal) about him.

stillakid
09-16-2001, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
If you look at ANH all by itself and with no knowledge of any other episodes or SE's, then yes I understand how he could be an average, highly-gifted farmboy. However, in ESB once we saw him use the Force to pull his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave, then everyone knew there was something special (almost para-normal) about him.

But that was after he received some rudimentary training from Ben. I'm sure that some others will have more "detailed" information regarding the span of time between ANH and ESB, but the assumption (I believed) has always been that he trained on his own for that period. Aside from the fact that he actually had success in telekinesis, all we knew back then is that he was "strong with the Force" and that he had a crash course in how to use it. This doesn't necessarily imply that he was really that much more special than anybody else. He just had the desire and motivation to learn where others didn't.

The only loophole might be that "strong with the Force" thing, but again, precedent was set that the Force was a mystical energy field surrounding and created by ALL living things. This would imply that anybody has access to it if they wanted. For an unknown reason, some people had more access than others. This could be construed as a door for the Midichlorians to step through, however any reasonable storyteller would hardly forget to drop such an important element into the plotline when any sort of teaching went on. There was plenty of opportunity to mention these things in ANH, ESB, and ROTJ and not once was there even a scant hint of them. Any suggestion to the contrary, even by the creator, is crazy.

Put it this way: if he did intend them all along, that makes the original trilogy a poorly told story because he left such an important element out. If he didn't invent them until the late 1990's, then that makes TPM a poorly told story as it conflicts with the original precedent. Either way, he screwed up somewhere.

JEDIpartner
09-17-2001, 02:09 PM
He can say whatever he wants to. It's his story. Like BigBarada, I never thought the Force was all that important to me. I mean- yeah... it is the basis for the heroes' power in the OT and NT, but that was not the primary aspect in why I enjoyed these films. Besides... I just ignore the midichlorian thing and move on.

THE Slayer
09-29-2001, 09:45 PM
AS Stated earlier it is "his" story so you can't debate him on it. It's whatever he wants it to be. And I think TK would strike anyone as just a little paranormal, and beyond genetics,, if I had TK it doesnt mean my kids would neccesarily.

If midiyaddas do sorround all living things, then you're right in thinking that everyone could get in tune with them, but's it's more logical to have a few people be in tune with them. Just like how some people are more open minded than the rest.

Eternal Padawan
09-30-2001, 01:58 AM
No one is debating whether or not it's "HIS" story, but whether his story is the same story he's been telling all along, or if he keeps changing his story as he goes...I think it's the latter. First off, the "Force" was "God", now the "Force" is a "genetic Virus" and it always has been. That is simply not true...no matter how many times GL says it is....

stillakid
09-30-2001, 11:03 AM
Here here.

I'm willing to run with the scientific explanation of the Force itself if you take a kind of Hindu look at it. The basic belief (pardon me for taking a broad sweeping look at it) is that some entity, God or whatever you want to call it, was the "singularity" or "mass" that IS/WAS everything that is. If you subscribe to the Big Bang Theory, then that singularity was/is "God" and it, for some reason, decided to essentially blow itself into trillions of tiny bits which became everything that we see around us. Cars, animals, us, planets, fire, Star Wars figures, space and time itself, AND consciousness itself all were one until the "event" which separated it all. When Star Wars came out in the Seventies, philosophers were all over the idea that the Force reflected the belief systems of many religions which subscribed to this idea that God is part of everything. With that in mind, it takes just a little leap to accept the idea that somebody might find a way to actually control "the Force" enough to move stuff around and "see" things in the future or across space and time.

What isn't believable is that tiny little bacterium can float around somebody's body to let them talk to the Force in a way that other people can't. That idea wasn't brought up in the Seventies and doesn't belong now.

JediTricks
09-30-2001, 12:28 PM
I still say Qui-Gon got it wrong and Midi-chlorians are a bodily reaction the Force, like white blood cells to an illness - with WBCs, the more you have, the sicker you are usually - but like WBCs, there will be exceptions to this rule to let some folks slip through the cracks.

THE Slayer
09-30-2001, 05:31 PM
So let me see if i'm still on the same page.
If you're in tune with the force you just have more midi's than the average joe. Joe still has midi's but either not enough to recognize the force, or he doesn't get midi's till he gets the force??

bigbarada
09-30-2001, 06:00 PM
The basic idea is, you have people and you have the Force. There's no way for either to communicate except thru these little organisms which somehow link people to this vast energy field called the Force. The Midichlorians are not a virus and they're not intelligent, they just provide a link to the Force, nothing more. I know Qui-Gonn said they continually speak to their host, but I think he was oversimplifying it. He was trying to explain the concept to a 9 year old after all. So the number of midichlorians in your body determines how in tune you are to the Force itself. IMPORTANT NOTE: MIDICHLORIANS ARE NOT THE FORCE, JUST A LINK TO THE FORCE.

It's really a simple concept, and one that's not hard for me to accept. But then again, the Force and the Jedi were never the most interesting parts of the OT to me. I was also never interested in the quest of Luke Skywalker, since there were always much cooler characters in the background to be interested in. So, to me, the introduction of the midichlorians is almost a non-issue.

JediTricks
10-01-2001, 09:14 AM
Slayer, my page says that the Midis have nothing to do with communicating with the Force, they're just a byproduct of having the Force. It's basically a vice-versa of the explanation we were given in Ep 1.

stillakid
10-01-2001, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Slayer, my page says that the Midis have nothing to do with communicating with the Force, they're just a byproduct of having the Force. It's basically a vice-versa of the explanation we were given in Ep 1.

Sort of like Force-exhaust?;)

evenflow
10-01-2001, 10:58 AM
Can't agree with him. I like it as a spiritual aspect.

Eternal Padawan
10-01-2001, 12:07 PM
I agree with JT's assessment. For instance Cracker Farm Boy takes it upon himself in a determined way to "learn about the Force" so he begins training like mad. (Something we can all do if we put our minds to it) Eventually the force becomes strong in him and the Midichlorians sit up and take notice (as does the Emperor) and start hanging out in his bloodstream. Cracker Slave Boy, on the other hand, was ALREADY strong in the force so he already had Midichlorians hitching a ride by the time "Venerable Jedi Knight" found him and took the MC Count.

So everybody does NOT have a set amount of MC in their bloodstream and this determines whether or not they can be Jedi. If you want to be a Jedi and study hard enough, the MC will eventually show up at your door asking to be in your bloodstream...

However. Since the discovery of the MC connection to the force, the Jedi began using it as the ruler to decide which six month olds were good strong candidates for Jedi Training. Basically not giving them a CHOICE in the matter (if you were raised from infancy to be a brick layer chances are you'd be a brick layer where as if youd grown up normally you might have become a concerto pianist). This, in my opinion, is the downfall of the Jedi Order. Relying on infants who may or may not want to be Jedi when they grow up, rather than well informed older people who make the consious EFFORT to become Jedi by choice. It's kind of like joining the army. Volunteers are much more desirable than conscripts or draftees. And that's why the Jedi Order collapses by Episode III...

stillakid
10-01-2001, 05:41 PM
Everybody here knows my position on the MC pretty well by now, but I'd just like to go on official record that once again, the MC are the stupidest things ever concocted for this storyline and, really no offense to anyone, but the rationalizations for their existence and how they are supposed to work are treading on paper-thin ice. It's just a bad concept from start to finish and no matter how hard any of us try to shoehorn it into the existing story, it'll never work. The Force was set up as a spirtitual entity and all one had to do was to "feel the Force flow through you" to make it work for you. MC's just were not part of the equation that Yoda or Old Ben taught Luke. GL is going to have to use some of that CG magic to re-edit EP1 if this is ever going to make sense.

ThomasLane
10-01-2001, 07:41 PM
I think midichlorians are just a practical joke that Yoda and Mace came up with to put one over on Padawan Qui-Gon. I can picture as Qui-Gon leaves the council chamber, Mace and Yoda, looking at each other with a grin and a wink... Jedi Master. Yeah right!

Of course, the rest of the council would have to be in on it too, or else they were just all meditiating, contemplating their own interpretation of what "The Force" is...

JediTricks
10-02-2001, 11:58 AM
Stillakid, very interesting, "Force exhaust", that does seem to give the Midis a little too much interaction for my tastes, as if Midis were a byproduct of the Force, but if you get more general, then sure, that's basically it.


EP, I really like your last paragraph about the fall of the Jedi Order once they became too rigid in their testing and their choices of Jedi candidates.

JediCole
10-03-2001, 06:25 PM
This is what it all boils down to folks, when it comes to midichlorians. When the subject was first brought up on screen, and later explored for Anakin's benefit (and that of a confused audience), the idea of midichlorians seemed tacked on. It was as if the influence of Star Trek The Next Generation with its quantifiable explanations of all things (seemingly) impossible had crept into the Star Wars canon. It seems as if Lucas felt he had to explain the comfortably mystical powers of the Force with the existance of a bridge that could be measured in a blood test!
The problem isn't so much that the midis are a bad idea, per se, it is more that, after three entire films that take place AFTER the events in EI, there inclusion comes right out of left field! Magic 8 Ball didn't see that one coming!
GL has thrown a curveball. It is as if all that came before (and technically after) is of no consequence. The midis serve only to strip away all of the appealing fantasy and mysticism of an otherwise mechanical/technological universe. Suddenly that "ancient religion" is little more than a techno-deism not unlike the worshipers of the All Powerful Bomb in Beneath the Planet of the Apes! Episodes IV-VI are rich in the mysteries of the force, the power an adept can weild, the former status of a long-held religion. It is all there, in tiny doses that add up to enrich the Star Wars Universe. Then in comes the technological, biological explanation of the Force, out of the blue and flushes all of the facination out of the whole concept. Granted, there is a distinction between the midis and the Force propper, but their presence is awkward and unnecessary. Did Vader have a midichlorian counter built into his TIE Fighter?

stillakid
10-03-2001, 07:15 PM
Excellent, JediCole! I particularly like how someone has finally managed to weave the word "flushes" into this discussion. It belongs somehow.

Lobito
10-04-2001, 07:15 PM
Qui Gonn's explanation to Anakin, is just the same explanation OB1 gave Luke in ANH, with the inclusion of the midichlorians. OB1 never told Luke about the midi's cuzz he already knew he was strong with the force. Remember that OB1 gave Qui Gonn the scale of Luke's father midichlorians.

Anyway...the latest Jedi Force Files from the POTJ line shows how strong with the force is that character. It would be interesting to see the scale for all the Jedi Council members.:eek:

stillakid
10-05-2001, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Lobito
Qui Gonn's explanation to Anakin, is just the same explanation OB1 gave Luke in ANH, with the inclusion of the midichlorians. OB1 never told Luke about the midi's cuzz he already knew he was strong with the force. Remember that OB1 gave Qui Gonn the scale of Luke's father midichlorians.



Really, now. I must have missed that pre-Phantom Menace literature with that information in it. I vaguely recall, way back in 1983, thinking to myself that Obi Wan was leaving out the Midichlorian connection. It's all coming back now...yeah, that's it...:rolleyes:


Once again, you can't back up a false proof with itself. In other words, to "prove" that Midichlorians were meant to be a part of the story all along, you can't quote The Phantom Menace as part of the evidence. It's like defining a word with itself. There is absolutely positively never ever and never will be any evidence to suggest in the slightest that Midichlorians existed anytime in any Star Wars incarnation before The Phantom Menace was poorly concocted and foisted upon us.

Lobito
10-08-2001, 03:55 PM
Well that depends...just read the title of this thread, Gl said MC was the idea all along, as a jury u can say thats no evidence, but the truth will always stay with GL, so i guess we'll never know.

stillakid
10-08-2001, 04:56 PM
OJ said that he didn't kill anybody, either.

Point being is, his statement came after his reading of posts just like these on the internet. I believe that instead of admitting to a mistake (and unable to retract it anyway), he has no choice but to say something like that and scramble to write himself out of a corner.

Rollo Tomassi
10-08-2001, 06:46 PM
What? OJ who? Did I miss something??











MMph.(snicker) Mmmmph...BWAHAHAHAHAHAA.

Oh.Hoo hoo. Wheeeee..(wipes tear from eye) ohboy.. that was a good one. Whew...

Lobito
10-08-2001, 07:41 PM
O.J.Simpson.

We will never know the truth behind that one either...;)

stillakid
10-08-2001, 09:19 PM
Did anybody bother to check his DNA for midichlorians?

JediTricks
10-09-2001, 11:04 AM
Lucas has released a lot of his prior notes about his ideas on Star Wars and NEVER was there anything about Midichlorians that I, nor any other fan I know of, have heard about.

stillakid
10-09-2001, 11:33 AM
I want to go out trick or treating as a Midichlorian. Do you suppose there are artist conceptions somewhere to build from?:rolleyes:

JediTricks
10-10-2001, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
I want to go out trick or treating as a Midichlorian. Do you suppose there are artist conceptions somewhere to build from?:rolleyes: Just buy a bunch of that "Nickelodeon Floam" toy and glue it to your clothes. ;)

Eternal Padawan
10-30-2001, 08:39 AM
So I was looking through the Episode 1 Scrapbook looking for the Jedi Council member rotation breakdown and came across THIS on page 13...

George Lucas on the Force

"The Force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was a basic idea common to all religions and common to primitive thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality. I believe in God and I believe in right and wrong. I also believe that there are basic tenets which through history have developed into certainties, such as 'thou shalt not kill.' I don't want to hurt other people. 'Do unto others...' is the philosophy that permeates my work."

Then there's a nice little shot of Georgie next to a camera. Ahhh, that's nice. hmmmmmmm...what's missing in that little quote there?? OH! ANY MENTION OF MIDICHLORIANS!!!!! Yeah. That's what I thought. And this is in an Episode I book. So Midichlorians were the idea all along...since about two months ago!!!:rolleyes:

stillakid
10-30-2001, 09:07 AM
Exactly. They became the "idea all along" when he realized that the audience wasn't as dense as he thought.

AxA
10-31-2001, 08:41 PM
I've been away from this forum for a couple of months and am glad to be back.

What a great thread here. I'm in agreement with the majority of those that believe that the "midichlorian gamble" was not only a mistake but detrimental to the Star Wars mythos.

I distinctly remember the feeling I had when sitting at the movie theater and hearing Qui-Gon giving that explanation to Anakin: It was a kick in the stomach. The magic was taken from the series and placed on a petri dish...

Eternal Padawan
11-01-2001, 08:28 AM
Welcome Back AxA!

It's not so much the Midichlorians themselves that bother me (Although they suck). It's Georgiekins saying that 'since the beginning' (Around 1974 when he started writing it) Midichlorians were the idea behind the Force. The man is just shoveling the BS.

Obi-Don
11-01-2001, 10:52 AM
Lets look at it this way. Maybe GL is tring to say that everyone has them but only a few has enough to be highly tuned to the force. One thing that comes to mind is the way Han gets these bad feelings about things or as he says luck.Maybe he has some midis but not enough to tune him in to the force. Like some people have a natural skill in music or math,flying and so forth. Either way I thing we could have done without the midi. thing all together. I don't even think about it to much just enjoy the stories and fill in the blanks with my own thoughts on what happened and whats going to happen.

AxA
11-02-2001, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the welcome, guys!

I have to admit that I, too, have tried to ignore the "midi" issue the last time I saw TPM (just a few days ago) and you know what?

It worked!

Though this only shifted the bad taste from the midi's to yet another issue that has also bothered the heck out me:

The immaculate conception...

Now these same midichlorians are doing double-duty as sperm...


But the bottom line is that GL couldn't care less about what the fans have to say. Even with the HUGE anti-Jar-Jar reaction, he went ahead and included him in E2. I only hope it's a MUCH shorter part...

JediTricks
11-02-2001, 12:34 AM
Welcome back AxA!

I dunno if you saw my theory on Midichlorians and the Anakin conception (as well as why Qui-Gon didn't disappear), but if not, I have thought a way around these Ep 1 points without changing what we saw on screen:

---Midichlorians---

My theory is that midi-chlorians do not create the Force nor a way to communicate with the Force, but instead are the RESULT of Force-ability within a user. They don't do ANYTHING like what Qui-Gon was talking about, instead they're just an indicator of something else: the more that show up in your bloodstream, the more you're touched by the Force. (This way, Qui-Gon was kinda like one of those folks from the middle ages who thought that bleedings could heal mental illnesses.) This would work kind of like how a bloodtest can indicate how ill you are based on your white bloodcell count; but if someone has a special condition like some sort of midi-chlorian inhibitor or simply less midi-chlorians in general, they would not show up in their bloodstream but they could still have a strong connection to the Force.

This could explain away how Dark Jedi and Sith don't get found at a very young age by the Jedi order, though I'm not saying every Force user without a high midi-chlorian count MUST be evil, just that it's not likely they'd be trained in the light side.

---Anakin's Father---

Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi knight who doesn't always follow the code, learns about the prophecy of the son of suns (perhaps born of starstuff, midichlorians - I tossed this in from no source BTW), and gets wrapped up in the concept of the boy who will bring balance to the Force. Qui-Gon does a lot of societal research about the galaxy - planets, customs, politics, etc. - and eventually zeroes in on the Outer Rim, then goes to Tatooine where he finds an unknown lass (Shmi) and decides to make a play to get her knocked up. Then the Jedi, in disguise, clouds her mind and beats a hasty retreat. Almost as soon as Qui-Gon returns to the Jedi order, he's given a new padawan learner, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the teaching of this youngster the ways of the Force distracts Jinn from concentrating on his real son until he is sent to Naboo (Tatooine being in a straight line between Coruscant and this Naboo), where he sabotages the Queen's starship, let's his apprentice "find" Tatooine as a safe haven, and manipulates the situation to make sure he gets the ship to this planet and even parks the royal starship near the city where his slave woman was last. These actions cause his path to make a hard detour towards the dark side, and his ability to join with the Force at death is cut off by his self-serving deeds.

---

My theories may seem pretty far-fetched, but until the last few minutes of ESB, nobody would have ever guessed that Darth Vader was Luke's father! These aren't the twists that the audience will expect, yet they salvage the saga pretty nicely from the stuff in Ep 1 without ripping the whole thing to pieces.

AxA
11-03-2001, 12:05 AM
Hello JediTricks!

Great deductions. I really like your definition of midichlorians. While I hadn't read you earlier postings on the subject, I can see your opinion here and it really does sound reasonable to me as well.

So the midichlorians are a "by-product", if you will, of one's usage of the Force? So the more you are attuned to the Force, the higher the midi count. I like it.

That would also explain OB1's statement that Anakin's count was "...even higher than Master Yoda's..." Yoda seems to be hanging out comfortably in his chair, most of the time, while Anakin is constantly using the Force, even without really knowing about it's existence. As a matter of fact, he doesn't have to "try" or "concentrate" on the Force but rather, it comes naturally to him.

And you may be onto something regarding it's "registering" or rather "not registering" on those walking on the Dark Side. Remember that Yoda stated that the Dark Side was NOT stronger, but easier. Perhaps it's this being attuned to the Good side that elevates or encourages the growth of the midichlorians...

Your theory regarding Qui-Gon does not appear far-fetched at all to me. The part that made me go "hmmm" was your idea that Qui-Gon was slipping towards the dark side due to his actions and thus looses connection with the Force enough to lose to Maul. That idea is facinating.

I like to take it a step further and throw in my observations based on your idea above:

1. Qui-Gon seems to always be out of step with the Council.
2. When questioned by Anakin if he was a Jedi (after spotting the light saber), he countered with, "What if I KILLED a Jedi and took his saber?" Kind of a dark answer to give a young 9 year old, don't you think?
3. He quickly dumps OB1's training in order to take on Anakin as his Padawan. Telling the council that OB1 is ready; give me the kid...
4. Upon arriving on Tatooine, tells OB1 to make sure that no communications are made (no chance of being found by even the Senate..)
5. His final words are for OB1 to promise to train Anakin.
6. The obvious lack of "dissappearance" when he dies.

The only other option to the above that I could bring up would be to say that Qui-Gon was a clone. Here's why:

1. Always out of step with the Council...
2. Everyone senses the danger in Anakin except for Qui-Gon (as stated by OB1)
3. Qui-Gon does not sense anything strange (at first) upon their arrival at the Federation command ship (while OB1 does)...
4. Has to meditate during the lull of his fight with Maul. At first it seems appropriate but he appears to get beaten rather quickly after the resumption of their battle. (ok, I may be stretching it with this one...) :)
5. His obvious lack of "dissappearance" when he dies.

Sorry for the long post but it's really a great discussion going on here.

JediTricks
11-03-2001, 09:22 AM
AxA, glad you liked my midichlorians theory, I hope that either Lucas goes with something similar OR at the very least he doesn't reinforce the idea in the next 2 prequels, so the idea can be spread. ;)

You pretty much got the concept on the nose, I think even Lucas' talk about "mitochondria" being the idea behind the concept helps out the "caused-by" or "by-product" theory.

I never liked that Obi-Wan comment about the count being higher than Yoda's, was Lucas trying to say that Anakin actually converses with the Force more than the little green guy, even though he's not a trained Jedi and doesn't know it; and we can prove this with raw numerical counts? I prefer my version where it means what Yoda says, it's how much the Force flows through a person, whether they channel it or not, if the Force is flowing through them, the Force will cause the bloodstream to have more midichlorians.

That's an interesting idea about the Dark Side of the Force "masking" the midis they create in a person, so they can't be counted. I was going for a more HIV style explanation, where the Force user who isn't found at an early age because they have a biological error that causes their bodies to not produce midichlorians even though the Force flows through them. My idea sorta had it that Yoda and Obi-Wan worked together to have this happen in Leia and Luke at birth so if the Empire did a random test for midis, they wouldn't find any. However, your idea - while not affecting Luke and Leia as children - feels more natural with the ways of the Force in the classic trilogy, where bad is bad and good is good with the Force and there's little confusion. It'd be great to expand upon both these ideas in EU or Fan Fic and see where each path ends up. The one thing I see the "darkside masking" thing not working in though is Anakin, though perhaps THIS is the balance of the Force and Anakin and Luke ultimately both bring balance!

Your "darkside reasons" for Qui-Gon dancing on the Force-fence - towards the dark side but still within the light - are great! I especially liked number 2, I thought it was a great Qui-Gon answer, but not something we'd expect from a true-blue Jedi, like Obi-Wan... Hey, I think I just got some reasoning for the saber blade colors! ;)

Your "darkside reason" #4 though, that is pure Machiavellian genius, I never put that together but it makes sense! Sure, Qui-Gon had a good enough (and obvious) reason not to let them communicate off-planet, but to also keep Obi-Wan from talking to the Jedi Council or the Senate... that is a GREAT line of thinking, I love it! Qui-Gon seems to be all about duality, and this would follow his path of duality perfectly, I only wish I had been the one who thought of it. :D

I don't know if I could accept Obi-Wan's tutor as a clone simply for the fact that Obi-Wan came out a fantastic Jedi knight and I don't think a clone could pull off that type of educating, but that could EASILY change in Ep 2 or 3 though I won't say more here because this section is spoiler-free, but those films will shape that concept.

stillakid
11-03-2001, 10:27 AM
While, um, interesting, it's all way too complicated and convoluted to be useful. You'd be giving GL far too much credit for being so complex. SW has always been a classicly simple story of good vs evil. We know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. We have the young knight in training having to enter the dragon's lair to rescue the fair princess. In saving the kingdom from the wrath of the devil, the knight saves his father from the eternal flames of hell.

The introduction of Midichlorians was/is nothing more than a "bonk you over the head" plot device that GL thought up so that Qui Gon would have a tangible "thing" to point to proving that Anakin had some Force ability (take a breath...and continue) because the Pod Race device failed to be a convincing method to do this and the dinner table conversation was nothing more than talk.

The character of Qui Gon was pointless from the get-go and his only purpose was to die. Everything he ever did, short of being run-through by Maul, could have and should have been done by Obi Wan. GL needed to show Maul killing someone in a dramatic way, so inventing another Jedi to be the sacrificial lamb seemed to be the way to go. Having him be nothing more than a lackey to Obi Wan would have put him into the familiar Star Trek yellow-shirt guy who is destined to die, so to avoid that stereotype, Qui Gon became "the main guy." It was dumb and created tons of continuity problems much like the Midichlorian concept.

There isn't precedent for a complicated reason for Qui Gon or Midi's. GL is insightful, but not that complex of a writer.

AxA
11-04-2001, 11:27 PM
Perhaps we're all just giving GL more credit than he deserves regarding intricate plot lines, but it sure is fun trying to formulate "some" logic to his madness... :D

Stillakid, your thoughts about Qui-Gon being only "Sith-fodder" is actually quite interesting as well. But I think that GL really does have more plans for Qui-Gon...

I wish to go on record and say that I have truly tried NOT to obtain any information on the new film other than what is "officially" released. No spoilers for me this time. I think that it literally "spoiled" E1 for me. Info-overload caused me to keep spotting each scene in E1 that had been previously viewed a hundred times in the trailers...

Jedi-tricks, with the above in mind, I'm going to stick to my "Qui-Clone" hypothesis. Qui-Gon's actions and remarks were many times "un-Jedi-like" (or at least as far as we've been exposed to so far). A clone would be a copy of the original but with some type(s) of flaws that had crept in during the cloning process. Perhaps degradation of the genetic and/or "Force" material(s)? That would explain Qui-Gon's unorthodox remarks and actions.

I'm going to go further out on a limb and throw out another of my wacky hypothesis's (spelling?):

So what if in E3, our heroes were to run into the "original" Qui-Gon? Either seduced by the Dark Side or a prisoner of Palpatine? Imagine OB1 having to fight not only his Padawan but his Master as well, if Qui-Gon were to have fallen???

As shocking as hearing Vader say, "...I AM your father...", wouldn't having Qui-Gon tell OB1 "....You don't know the POWER of the Dark Side..." be just as powerful?!

GL has already stated that he wished to have the Prequel trilogy symbolically follow the the flow set by the original trilogy. So having the "mixed-feeling" battle between OB1 and his mentor and student (Luke/Vader) , plus having Qui-Gon make the same statement that Anakin/Vader would later make to his own "son" would be pretty mind-blowing, in my opinion.

I eagerly await your thoughts on this one... ;)

The 'Xir
11-05-2001, 03:34 PM
I haven't read this entire thread but read the 1rst and last page and got the overall feel for what's being said, and as usual I gotta be the odd-man out! Let's just say that I find your lack of faith disturbing!!!
I'm sorry but you guys can't hold Lucas to such black and white scrutinity, you can't! I'd love to see you guys write something and have someone stand over your shoulder every minute and go over every last detail with a fine-toothed comb! And if they did guess what, your story would have huge holes too! Why, because writting and drama in paticular isn't soley based on the details of the story! Drama is just that, Drama(emotion) it is more suggestive than detailed, sometimes you have to read inbetween the lines!
Now, I don't know when Lucas came up with this Idea for Midichlorians, but I really don't care either! Hearing Interviews that he has done, yes he stated that Midichorians were an Idea he had from the begining, however he never said they were fleshed out in any form or that he had written them down, it was just a concept he had in the back of his mind of an ASPECT of the Force that he'd like to explore, but he wanted to concentrate on the religious and mythical aspect of the force in Ep 4-6! Just like he had the basic Idea for the backstory but they weren't fleshed out entirely either, obviously! So now in the new movies he's able to go back and explore, fleshout, and come up with ideas about the midichorians! It's creative writting, it's a process, so let the man work it out and by the end of EPIII; if you still don't like it, then SW can be tainted in your eyes for the rest of your lives! Personally, I like to just get caught up in the fantasy of it all, but if I feel up to it, in my next post I'll try to address some of the more detailed issues and scenes in TPM & OT you guys pointed out, as to hopefully show you a different look as to why the Midichlorians might not be so bad and why the Force HASN"T lost it's mysticism! ThanX cya!

stillakid
11-05-2001, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by The 'Xir
I haven't read this entire thread but read the 1rst and last page and got the overall feel for what's being said, and as usual I gotta be the odd-man out! Let's just say that I find your lack of faith disturbing!!!
I'm sorry but you guys can't hold Lucas to such black and white scrutinity, you can't! I'd love to see you guys write something and have someone stand over your shoulder every minute and go over every last detail with a fine-toothed comb! And if they did guess what, your story would have huge holes too! Why, because writting and drama in paticular isn't soley based on the details of the story! Drama is just that, Drama(emotion) it is more suggestive than detailed, sometimes you have to read inbetween the lines!
Now, I don't know when Lucas came up with this Idea for Midichlorians, but I really don't care either! Hearing Interviews that he has done, yes he stated that Midichorians were an Idea he had from the begining, however he never said they were fleshed out in any form or that he had written them down, it was just a concept he had in the back of his mind of an ASPECT of the Force that he'd like to explore, but he wanted to concentrate on the religious and mythical aspect of the force in Ep 4-6! Just like he had the basic Idea for the backstory but they weren't fleshed out entirely either, obviously! So now in the new movies he's able to go back and explore, fleshout, and come up with ideas about the midichorians! It's creative writting, it's a process, so let the man work it out and by the end of EPIII; if you still don't like it, then SW can be tainted in your eyes for the rest of your lives! Personally, I like to just get caught up in the fantasy of it all, but if I feel up to it, in my next post I'll try to address some of the more detailed issues and scenes in TPM & OT you guys pointed out, as to hopefully show you a different look as to why the Midichlorians might not be so bad and why the Force HASN"T lost it's mysticism! ThanX cya!


There are currently around 13 billion threads and responses (a little exaggeration, but you get the idea. Check the old forums for a complete listing.) that "explore" the Midi's and irrefutably support the notion that a) Midi's were just recently dreamed up and b) that they, in conjunction with other elements of TPM, harm the continuity of the Star Wars story.

I really can't fathom the notion that an audience should summarily disregard the details when evaluating whether a story has been well told or not. The totality of anything is made up by a sum of it's parts, whether it is an automobile, pop tart, human being, or a story. If the details are flawed, then so too will be the bigger picture. Those interviews you speak of only came about as a result of discontent after the release of TPM. Had there been just one hint of Midichlorians at any point in the last twenty years, then your argument and his would have validity. But as the facts stand, GL is making this up as he goes and in the face of discontent he is performing damage control to the best of his abilities.

Yes, we have to live with the Midi's. Will they be further "explained" (read: rationalized) in EP 2 and 3? We all hope so, but it will take nothing short of a miracle, and maybe some 11th hour re-editing on the Classic Trilogy DVD release, to shoehorn Midichlorian's into the story that we all know and love. I mean, if w h i p p e d - soccermom Spielberg can digitally remove the guns from ET, then Lucas can surely insert Midichlorian's throughout EP IV,V, and VI.

Vader: "The Midichlorians are strong with this one"

Yoda: "The Midichlorians surround us, penetrate us, bind the Universe together"

Obi Wan: "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them. Listen to your Midichlorians"
Han: "Midichlorians? Ha, I call that luck"

Emperor: "He has grown strong with the Midichlorians"

Luke: "The Force?"
Ben: "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. Well, that and the Midichlorians in your blood."

Everybody: "May the Force be with you...only if you have a high enough Midichlorian count, that is. For the rest of you, you're screwed."

bigbarada
11-05-2001, 07:36 PM
Geez, I can't believe I started this thread. I for one am still holding out on the idea of midichlorians. I do remember GL mentioning them in a pre-Ep1 release interview thus I was not so shocked by them when I heard them mentioned in the movie. In fact the way he described them in that interview, they actually seemed like a good idea. I've read all the points made as to how they ruin the OT, but I'm sorry I just don't agree.

snakeplkn
11-05-2001, 08:52 PM
Stillakid, that's some serious smack. Those quotes are great, it just proves how much trust can someone really put in Lucas.

By the way, if E.T. is going to get its guns removed (I really don't remember the scene where 'lil ET takes out his AK-47) does Indy now not shoot the swordsman in Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Snake Plissken
"A little human compassion"

JediTricks
11-06-2001, 10:45 AM
AxA, I think if we met an "alternate" Qui-Gon, it would kinda cheapen the whole film of Ep 1 (even further :D) unless there was some explanation as to how Qui-Gon was "replaced" right before his death in Ep 1 and the ep 3 Dark Qui-Gon was the same character we met in Ep 1 who trained Obi-Wan and Anakin. In other words, dead Ep 1 Qui-Gon was only a clone from the point of the final Jedi duel and the real QGJ was locked away after the final planning of the big battle. The reason is, even if this is the "original" QGJ or a "clone" QGJ, the impact will be softened when we all realize that we NEVER knew this character, and neither did Anakin or Obi-Wan.


Barada and Xir, I think you guys will need to produce solid proof of pre-'97 Lucas mentioning anything that was similar to the current concept of midichlorians because nobody else I know has heard of this.

stillakid
11-06-2001, 12:07 PM
I still sense doubt out there. :p

I got to thinking more about this after I submitted the last post and I really believe that my last "quote" says more than any long disertation ever could in proving my point that Midichlorians are bunk:

Everybody: "May the Force be with you...only if you have a high enough Midichlorian count, that is. For the rest of you, you're screwed."


In the Classic Trilogy, anybody and everybody had a shot at "having the Force be with them." Everybody said it, and everybody seemed to mean it. The audience got the distinct idea that for anyone who was willing to follow the rules (relax, calm, think happy thoughts, whatever..) they too could have a certain amount of control over the Force and have the Force conversely control their actions.

NOW, that just ain't so. You gotta have a certain number of bacterium in your bloodstream or nadda. You could relax, concentrate, listen as hard as you possibly can for what those little buggers are saying to you, but if they're not there, it just ain't gonna happen...ever. You must have Midichlorian's in your system to make the Force work for you. Luke, Obi Wan, Leia, Yoda, Anakin/Vader, Emperor, etc. all are super-human. Everybody else, well, they're just lowly humans like the rest of us.

Jedi-ism is no longer a religion...it's a medical condition. The Midichlorians aren't spiritual mediums...they're an alien life form...a parasite even. Not only that, much like in ALIEN, they have the ability to impregnate a host and create life. Yes, the Force and Midichlorians are separate entities, I get that. That's why Vader is able to choke poor Motti from across the room. But presumably, Vader's Midi's were what made it possible for Vader to "connect to" the energy that surrounds us and binds us together. Without the Midi's, no choking, no moving stuff around. If you don't have Midi's, no amount of training or belief will ever let you be a Jedi...ever.

Midichlorians are a mistake. Period. He f'd up and now has no choice but to write himself out of a corner somehow.


(Oh, and the ET thing: the cops used to point their guns at the kids who are on their bikes as they fly into the air. That'll be gone in the rerelease. And, yeah, it has been mentioned as a joke that he'll go into Raiders and take out the shooting of the sword-wielding Arab. This is what happens when filmmakers have kids. We get Greedo shooting first, Ewoks, and Jar Jar Binks.)

bigbarada
11-06-2001, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Barada and Xir, I think you guys will need to produce solid proof of pre-'97 Lucas mentioning anything that was similar to the current concept of midichlorians because nobody else I know has heard of this.

Actually the interview I read was from early 1999, I guess GL knew the midichlorian idea would be a little hard to swallow for some fans.

Stillakid, no matter how much you believe it, saying the inclusion of midis into the trilogy is a bad idea is still just your opinion. It's not a fact. I don't really hold with the idea that Luke was ever portrayed as average in the OT. It was always obvious to me, even when I was a kid, that he was special in some way, maybe even super-human. The midichlorians just reinforce that idea, that's why I see nothing wrong with them.

As we are learning nowadays with genetics, what you are biologically born with has a lot to do with what you end up doing for the rest of your life. As I've mentioned before, can any kid off the street play basketball like Michael Jordan? No, absolutely not. Something in Jordan's genetic make-up just makes him better than most anyone else. Does this discourage kids from seeing him as a role model? Not really.

Can any kid who studies hard be as smart as Albert Einstein? Or Steven Hawking? No. It always has been clear that some people just seem to have more of 'something' than anyone else. This abundance of 'something' makes them better at whatever it is that they do. In Star Wars these 'somethings' are called midichlorians. Simple.

stillakid
11-06-2001, 05:56 PM
Your argument of that certain special "something" goes right to the heart of what I've been saying all along. I'll be the first one to agree with you that all human beings have different abilities enabling them to accomplish different, and sometimes wonderful, things.

However, the primary and excrutiatingly massive difference here is where that difference comes from. With the science we have at hand, we can surmise that Michael Jordan's talents as well as Steven Hawking's talents come from the generic label: "genetics." Some people write better than others. Some draw, sculpt, argue, love, drive, invent, calculate, etc. better than others. Why? For lack of a better label, genetics. Something in each one of us predisposes us to be better at one thing than someone else. Of course, in turn, they are better at something that we aren't so great. That's us...

What about the Midichlorians then? They're not a genetic entity. TPM defined them as separate organisms that live in the bloodstream...symbiotes. They are not human or part of the human genome. They are parasites living off of a host. And again defined by TPM, only a few select beings are "fortunate (?)" enough to have Midichlorians in their bodies. Why them? We don't know yet, and may never know. That's up to GL. But the point here is that they are not available to everyone, which does indeed equal super-beings. I'm using GL's definitions here. I'm not making this up myself. A+B=C here.

So what about Luke being special? Sure, of course he stood out as special. By 1981, just about anybody paying attention could tell that Luke could "feel" the Force more than others around him. That wasn't strange, though. Up to that point, we had every reason to believe in the Force as a mystical energy field created by all living things. Mainly because it was a line in the movie. We also had reason to believe that Jedi was a religion ...for the same reason. There were no hints, intimations, or allusions that a Jedi had to "talk to" or "listen to" little alien bugs in their bodies. Look, if I want to talk to God or a spirit or a ghost of my dead grandfather, I haven't been taught to go to the middle-man symbiotes in my bloodstream first. There hasn't been a religion yet that has relied on middlemen to get to the spirit world.

Aha! you say...this is just a story and GL is free to do whatever he wants to. Absolutely, I reply...however, every great work of fiction has always grounded itself in truths that are familiar to it's audience. The original trilogy accomplished that very feat on every level. TPM, sadly, did not. GL has diverted the classic mythology into something resembling a dungeons and dragons lore, with magic crystals and microscopic beings. This isn't the story that earned him the praise so long ago. It has become something quite different, something not quite Star Wars.


But the action figures are still cool! :D

AxA
11-06-2001, 07:21 PM
(Disclaimer: The following is just one man's opinion and not necessarily the opinion of this forum, website or Star Wars fans everywhere...)

I'm in total agreement with Stillakid here, in regards to the midi's. He's destroyed the magic and mystery regarding the Force and has made it something antiseptic.

Just as stillakid stated earlier, the introduction of the midi's has forever altered every spoken line regarding "The Force" in the original trilogy.

Was this GL's intent? Who knows.
Did he have this all planned out before TPM? Definitely not.

In my opinion, the ONLY author that has meticulously created a fantasy world/universe in which just about "every" detail has been planned with continuity ahead of time has been J. R. R. Tolkien, with his life-long works which include "The Lord of the Rings." And before anyone responds with, "...but he had a lifetime to work on it...", just remember that GL had almost "20 years" to digest the impact of his initial work and come up with a prequel story, of which he has stated that he had the working details a long time ago...

I guess that with the "Attack of The Clones", we may see the Sith trying to clone "midichlorians" and create and/or perpetuate their line. This could be the reason why the Emperor in ROTJ is so darn powerful. He appeared to be invincible inregards to Force powers. It took him getting blindsided by Vader/Anakin to be destroyed.

Finally, in regards to genetics and the Michael Jordan / Stephen Hawking examples stated before, I believe that it's not a true comparison to the midi's. As stillakid mentioned, the midi's are nothing more than parasites and why one person would have more, if any, than another person has yet to be explained. But the real difference is the following:

- Even if one has never been exposed to basketball or mathematics, (yeah, I know, but bear with me here...) if given proper training and practice, one can at least, in some capacity, become a reasonably good B-ball player and/or mathematician.

-on the other hand, without the midichlorians, no matter how long or hard you try, you won't be able to move a feather with the Force.

BigBarada, this has been a great thread. It's provided intelligent and mature discussions about a new aspect introduced into the SW Universe. Whether one is bothered or not by this new aspect, you'll have to admit that it has permanently altered this same SW Universe. Some, like myself, believe that the alteration has been for the worse. Others may disagree. Either way, it's fun to be able to share one's opinions in this great forum provided.

bigbarada
11-06-2001, 11:54 PM
Qui-Gonn: "They are a microscopic organism that resides in ALL living cells."

This means that everything living has midichlorians: people, aliens, animals, plants, one-celled-amoeba. Thus the idea of someone getting left out in the cold with no midichlorians is disproved by Qui-Gonn's statement.

Comparing the midichlorians to parasites is inaccurate also. Parasites leech from their host while giving no benefit whatsoever, in fact most parasites cause harm to their hosts. Midichlorians were clearly described as 'symbiotes,' which means that both organism and host benefit from the union.

The 'Xir
11-07-2001, 05:44 AM
DAMN BB beat me to it!

There's no way I can address all the issues here in one post but:

Still-a-kid you have the right to your opinion, but I suggest you form one when all the facts your basing it on are right! And BB bringing up the Qui-Gon quote from SW:EpI "The Phantom Menace" is exactly right!!!!!

Just to reiterate:
QG,"Midichlorians are microscopic life forms within ALL LIVING CELLS, and we are symbionts with them"
ANI, "the're inside me?"
QG, "Inside your cells yes! "they continually speak to us, and tell us the will of the Force"

Sorry SAK, your just wrong! Your opinion isn't wrong but what your arguing about is!

And to help clarify, if you go back to my other post, I wasn't saying that the details of the story should be disregarded, but that you can't scrutinize the details so closely, because in drama the details are put in place with the anticipation that one will use there own imagination and intuition to draw different conclusions guided by those details but to eventually come to the same result! And I was just voicing that I thought alot of you guys we're just crucifying GL and TPM for every little damn thing that didn't make sense to you or you didn't like or whatever, but as I have said, that's wonderful you feel that way, but tough it's his story and you can't criticize him for that!
That quote, above is another perfect example of what I'm talking about. I don't remember who it was but someone had some ridiculous argument way back when, about how stupid the idea was that Midi's actually would be talking to the Jedi! :rolleyes: I just had to leave that one alone! :)

SAK- wasn't Christ(technically) a middle man for Christianity between the word of God and us down here on Earth! What about Shaman in Indian cultures between the spirit world and the tribe? I know what your gonna say, well that's not the same as what George is trying to say with Midchlorians, but you know what...it is! Forget writting and drama as I've talked about before, Religion HAS metaphors(as someone mentioned either in this thread or another) and writting has metaphors! What about the bible? Isn't that (technically) a middle man device to communicate the word of god to us? Like teh Midi's would communicate the "way of the Force". So look at it that way what if Midichorians are like the bible? Now does the bible destroy the power or mysticism of Christianity, NO and neither does Midi's to the religion of the Force!

AxA- Welcome back, but I gotta say you also R SOOOOO wrong! This however being about Tolkein, If I had a dollar for everytime any of his books having to do with Middle-earth have been revamped, reworked, and rewritten I could retire!!!! Even with all the SE's to the trilogy, Lucas isn't even close to Tolkein in that regard! His books have so many holes and mixed information that swiss cheese couldn't even compete for the title! Now, IN NO WAY am I saying that his books are crap, they're not! They are by far one of the best Fairytale series ever created! However, they are so packed with names and information and what-not that even he couldn't keep track of them all!!! I even remember reading that his son had to gather his fathers notes and rewrite or make a supplement to the books after his father had passed away, or else things would have just not made sense!!!

and JT- If you go back and read, I never said there was proof of the midichlorians or Lucas mentioning them! I said that just like Ep1-3 were an idea in the back of his mind, Lucas stated that the midichorians were also in the back of his mind as an idea he wanted to explore! To be honest, I'll even go as far as to agree with you all that the name Midichlorians probably never existed before and were just recently made up! But, once again this is the criticism I have of alot of you guys taking everything that George does or says as black and white and getting on his case about it! 'Cause he's saying that it's the idea of midichorians he always had and wanted to explore, but all you guys hear is that OOHHHH!!! he always had Midichlorians in his notes or the script for the OT and now that he's brought it in to the new movies it's destroyed the mysticism of the force and what the Force was all about wah wah wah! Come on Guys give the guy a break and stop taking everything so critically! It's Fantasy! Geeezz!

All I can say Is God I hope he explains it fully in Ep2 and 3!

BIG Barada- you Da'man keep up those positive thoughts we're gonna need 'em to get through these next two episodes!!
;) :rolleyes:
ThanX, if you read all the way though this! Your all cool people for that! ;) :D MTFBWY...Always! The 'Xir

stillakid
11-07-2001, 11:11 AM
Sorry, you're still wrong. I'll give on the Midi's being in every bloodstream over in that galaxy a long time ago, but that doesn't change the basic argument one bit. Say, for instance, that poor Porkins wanted all his life to be a Jedi, but because of his pitifully low Midichlorian count, he never could. Instead he ended up becoming a flaming gas ball.

Once again, go back to everybody's thought process back in the 70's and 80's when Midi's weren't yet a glimmer in GL's mind, and Luke was someone we all could realistically aspire to be like. He was just a normal boy with big dreams...like a lot of us. Now we are told that it wasn't his internal drive, fortitude, perserverence, or innate talents that found him fame and fortune...

...no, he only achieved great things because of a high parasite count (yes, parasite does not necessarily mean a bad thing although it frequently connotes that thought), something that poor Porkins or you or me could never be blessed with (although I hesitate on using the word "blessed" because of it's connotations, and use it here lightly.) It is an advantage given to Luke, Anakin, the Emperor, etc., but quite unlike inborn skills like drawing or painting, things that can be practiced until a certain level of greatness can be achieved. The argument still holds quite firmly.

I haven't read the JRR Tolkien novels, but in defense of AxA's point, try reading the DUNE series. Each subsequent book has held (pardon the pun) religiously to the continuity that has been set up by all the previous works. It is possible to do in such a large epic. In contrast, Arthur C Clarke made a distinct point at explaining that his third book of the 2001 series was NOT meant to maintain the continuity of the previous works. He had "elements" that he wished to explore that he knew would screw with the continuity, chose to do it anyway, but issued a disclaimer beforehand. GL could have done the same thing instead of thinking that we'd all fall in behind the flawed thinking.

And yes, you can scrutinize details closely and should. You draw conclusions based on them, as we have seen here. A well told story will have such solid water-tight details that the myriad imaginations of the audience can only lead to one possible conclusion. In contrast, as in the TPM, weak poorly designed details will cause confusion and lead to a variety of conclusions, none of which can ever seem right because they conflict with other things in the story.

No, Christ was not a middleman for Christianity. How about you checking out your facts first? The Holy Trinity expresses the idea that The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit were one. Shaman are not middlemen, they are messengers and representatives if you will, of God. No modern form of religion, anyway, claims that you need to look to a single individual in order to get to God. The tenants of religion are the path.

You proved my point once again by labeling the story "Fantasy." It used to be a solid story of well told fiction and is degenerating into a D&D fantasy.

Your own arguments are based on pure emotion and lack the details that you fondly ignore. While passionate, you fail to persuade.

JediTricks
11-07-2001, 11:17 AM
barada, as per your response to my "produce solid proof" comment, NOTHING lucas could say after '97 would make me believe he always meant to have Midichlorians be part of the concept of the Force. It's too easy (and too much like Lucas) to simply say "heh heh, I always meant to do that", like with the 9 episodes issue.


I will say that the idea of the Force in the classic trilogy was portrayed as being something most anybody could obtain if they simply had the desire to. Luke is clearly shown as a gifted child, but even if a gifted child can read at an 11th grade level, nearly any children can learn to read. Luke's line to Leia in ROTJ, "the Force is strong in my family..." makes it seem as if his relatives are just stronger with it than other families.


As for this "a midi-chlorian resides within each living cell" stuff, that doesn't even make sense by Ep 1's own dialogue! Qui-Gon Jinn asks Obi-Wan for a Midichlorian count in Anakin's blood count, so are we supposed to assume that Anakin's blood has more CELLS than other blood? Is this a midi count, so Anakin has 20,000 midichlorians within each bloodcell? Friggin' Lucas should have left the science to Trek, he's never had a good grasp of it (good thing he went to USC ;) sorry Trojans) and this one is far too technical for his simple style of storytelling IMO.


originally posted by The 'Xir
SAK- wasn't Christ(technically) a middle man for Christianity between the word of God and us down here on Earth!I'm not SAK, but not according to the words of Jesus himself, he was just teaching the way of peace, NOT a religion. As for Lucas trying to relig-ize the Force with this explanation, see my previous paragraph - Lucas should have left the cellular aspects out of it, he was in over his head IMO and it HURTS THE STORY.


This thread is under the assumption that Lucas did indeed claim he always had Midis in mind. I cannot find one SHRED of proof of this, and that is where the issue becomes simple "black and white". He's jerking Star Wars around with this midi thing and I honestly don't believe he EVER really thought about this being a realistic part of the saga before 1997. Lucas has produced an awful lot of his own saga pre-production notes, art, and other concept stuff and NEVER did it appear anywhere, nothing even similar, yet now he's saying "oh, I was thinking about it the whole time"? He thought about an awful lot of stuff that didn't make it into the saga the first time around that we DO know about, so the question is, how come this now-major element of the Force (the heart of the saga) has NEVER cropped up before '99? I don't think it's unfair to question Lucas on this, and I don't see why any similar comment is treated as blasphemy, as if Lucas could speak no untruth. To ask a question in response to a line from Star Trek 5, "why shouldn't I ask the almighty for his ID? He expects me to follow his lead as divine direction, why shouldn't I have some confirmation of his identity before I turn over full belief? Did not this same God tell us to not worship false idols?" (heh, sorry McCoy, it had to be done).

JediTricks
11-07-2001, 12:21 PM
More changes:

---
"My midichlorians have a very bad feeling about this!"
---
"I have felt him, my master."

"Strange that I have not... perhaps I should have my midichlorians looked at."
---
"Luke, you must go to the Dagobah system, there you will find Yoda, the Jedi master who counted my midichlorians."
---
"I can't understand how we got by those troopers. I thought we were dead for sure."

"The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded. In this case, my high number of midichlorians were able to tell his lower number of midichlorians that his brain should follow everything I say to the letter. There's more I could tell you about this, such as how Toydarians and Hutts react, but that can wait for another lesson; we've got plenty of time to discuss such things."
---
(Luke views Vader cutting down his mentor, Ben Kenobi)

LUKE: NO!!!

LEIA: Come on! It's too late Luke!

HAN: Blast the door kid!

BEN'S VOICE: Run Luke, run!

LUKE: What the hell was that?!?

BEN'S VOICE: That was your midichlorians reverberating the voice being spoken by the energy field created by the one you call Ben's midichlorians. They're giving you sound advice since clearly you're unable to save yourself - and thus the midichlorians within you - without a familiar etherial voice telling you what to do.

LUKE: Holy crap! Does this mean I no longer have to make any decisions myself? That'd be awesome! Hey, can I talk to the midichlor-whatevers that formed the energy fields from my Aunt and Uncle's bodies? I'll show them who has to stay on one extra season!

BEN'S VOICE: They weren't really your Aunt and Uncle, but that's unimportant right now.

LUKE: Whoa whoa whoa! What are you talking about?

BEN'S VOICE: Just get in the danged pirate ship!
---

stillakid
11-07-2001, 02:15 PM
LOL. I really needed that JT! Damn funny and right on the mark too. :p

I just cannot fathom how anybody can't see how ridiculous this whole Midi thing is. Your own "quotes" go right to the heart of it. Even if GL did have this in mind back in 1975, then that makes the Original Trilogy in error. The OT and the New Trilogy have now become mutually exclusive. They can't both be right.

bigbarada
11-07-2001, 02:23 PM
I still think you guys are totally overreacting to this whole midichlorian thing. Star Wars was never meant to be torn apart and scrutinized peice by peice. Scientifically, Star Wars has never made any sense; but it's not supposed to.

You also should come to grips with the fact that some of us have no problem with the concept. Some of us actually LIKE the idea of midichlorians in the story. This doesn't make us any less or more Star Wars fans. They don't ruin the saga to me at all, in fact I always thought they added kind of an interesting twist to the otherwise bland concept of the Force.

And if midichlorians have ruined the saga where you cannot enjoy it anymore then I'm sorry, but that's not my fault.

The 'Xir
11-07-2001, 05:53 PM
Hear Hear BB! Yeah I don't no what to tell you guys! Because it works for me, in other words I get what Lucas is trying to say! You guys seem to be looking at it in a diffenert light, that to me makes absolutely no sense! I mean I understand where your trying to go with it, but I just don't agree.
LOL actually this just reminded me of the cut scene of Anakin and Greedos fight, and QG's lesson to both the kids! So oh well, we're just gonna have to accept that we share different views about this, and I'm sorry if I in anyway took it to far, but I was hoping you could see my light! I actually kinda feel sorry for you guys, 'cause it really sounds like you haven't or won't be able to enjoy the film/s because of this!
I just hope that one day you'll be able to see what I and BB have been talking about, because I don't see any mysticism lost within the Force! And belive me, I in no way am saying that any of the films are perfect, or that Lucas shouldn't be questioned AT ALL, but I think I've been able to read inbetwen the (hypothetical) lines of the movie and just see it in a more constructive or positve way I guess!
I just wish you guys were along for the ride, because to me, even the Midi's have been that same fun and mystical SW experience that has always been attached to the movies! :)

MTFBWY...ALWAYS!!! The 'Xir

AxA
11-07-2001, 07:29 PM
Is this a great thread or what?!

Ok, let me begin with a response to Xir and some of the statements that he's made:


1) "...because in drama the details are put in place with the anticipation that one will use there own imagination and intuition to draw different conclusions guided by those details but to eventually come to the same result!"

I have to disagree here. How can a writer, director, storyteller NOT have a plan in how his story will be developed, revealed and understood? I can't imagine any of the above voicing the opinion, "Oh, I don't care what you think of the first 2 hours of the book/story/film. All I'm interested is that you figure out at the end that the butler did it...." Are not the best "who-done-it's" those that are intricately planned and lead the reader specifically here and there, only to get wholloped at the end with the truth?

2) "And I was just voicing that I thought alot of you guys we're just crucifying GL and TPM for every little damn thing that didn't make sense to you or you didn't like or whatever, but as I have said, that's wonderful you feel that way, but tough it's his story and you can't criticize him for that!"

Ok, it IS his story about that doesn't give him the freedom to have inconsistencies in the story and NOT have his fans question them. We all agree that the Star Wars phenomenom has inspired and affected all of us in at least a tiny way. So when that same phenomenom begans to show cracks, it's our right as "fans" to question what is going on.



3) SAK- wasn't Christ(technically) a middle man for Christianity between the word of God and us down here on Earth! What about Shaman in Indian cultures between the spirit world and the tribe? I know what your gonna say, well that's not the same as what George is trying to say with Midchlorians, but you know what...it is! Forget writting and drama as I've talked about before, Religion HAS metaphors(as someone mentioned either in this thread or another) and writting has metaphors! What about the bible? Isn't that (technically) a middle man device to communicate the word of god to us? Like teh Midi's would communicate the "way of the Force". So look at it that way what if Midichorians are like the bible? Now does the bible destroy the power or mysticism of Christianity, NO and neither does Midi's to the religion of the Force!

Whoa! where do I begin with this one?! I won't question your faith, my friend, but speaking as a Christian, you are incorrect. Christ was not a "middle man" but is God incarnate. Though I believe that Christ lives in me, you wouldn't be able to measure Him with a blood test. Let's move on.

You may be closer in regards to the Shaman but I don't have enough info on this one, so I'll reserve comment.

4) AxA- Welcome back, but I gotta say you also R SOOOOO wrong! This however being about Tolkein, If I had a dollar for everytime any of his books having to do with Middle-earth have been revamped, reworked, and rewritten I could retire!!!! Even with all the SE's to the trilogy, Lucas isn't even close to Tolkein in that regard! His books have so many holes and mixed information that swiss cheese couldn't even compete for the title! Now, IN NO WAY am I saying that his books are crap, they're not! They are by far one of the best Fairytale series ever created! However, they are so packed with names and information and what-not that even he couldn't keep track of them all!!! I even remember reading that his son had to gather his fathers notes and rewrite or make a supplement to the books after his father had passed away, or else things would have just not made sense!!!"

Ah, but are you a fan of Tolkien's works? Those revamped, reworked and rewritten books are actually the notes, outlines and storys "edited" by his son, Christopher Tolkien. J.R.R. Tolkien not only did his homework in regards to "The Lord Of The Rings", but he actually created historys, Languages, and the "creation" of that universe! Those books you've seen over the years have been his son's compilations of his father's work notes and their publication to the fans that have "wanted MORE". They are not meant to be read the same way as LOTR but as what they initially and always were: working notes FOR the LOTR. If you were to purchase the latest version of the LOTR today, you would be getting the exact story that was initially published in the late 50's / early 60's and with each subsequent re-print. I'm a huge fan of Star Wars, but trust me on this one- it can't hold a candle to the world created by Tolkien.

-Note: Justakid, I too read Dune and consider it one of the best Sci-Fi stories ever written (up there with Asimov's "Federation" series)

5) "...But, once again this is the criticism I have of alot of you guys taking everything that George does or says as black and white and getting on his case about it! 'Cause he's saying that it's the idea of midichorians he always had and wanted to explore, but all you guys hear is that OOHHHH!!! he always had Midichlorians in his notes or the script for the OT and now that he's brought it in to the new movies it's destroyed the mysticism of the force and what the Force was all about wah wah wah! Come on Guys give the guy a break and stop taking everything so critically! It's Fantasy! Geeezz!"

Let me ask you question: After viewing "Return of the Jedi", weren't you a little bothered with the whole "love triangle" thing in the first two movies? -after finding out that Luke and Leia were siblings?? Yeah, GL had that all planned out from the beginning as well....

Peace,

bigbarada
11-07-2001, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by AxA
Let me ask you question: After viewing "Return of the Jedi", weren't you a little bothered with the whole "love triangle" thing in the first two movies? -after finding out that Luke and Leia were siblings?? Yeah, GL had that all planned out from the beginning as well....

Peace,

Ooooooh, as stillakid can tell you the whole Luke/Leia brother/sister revelation is a BIG sore spot for me. I felt, after that revelation, the same way you guys feel about midichlorians. However, after a few (try 10) years I was able to reluctantly accept them as twins. So, in a way, I sympathize about the midichlorians.

The Force was always the least interesting aspect of the saga to me. I was always a little uncomfortable with it's religious overtones. So the de-mystifying, so to speak, of the Force was actually a welcome change to the saga.

Everyone involved in this discussion is undoubtedly a Star Wars fan (being this passionate about the midis pretty much requires it); however it is obvious that we all have certain aspects of the story that are more or less important to us. Speaking for myself, I can honestly say that the inclusion of midichlorians has no effect whatsoever on my enjoyment of Star Wars.

I totally believe that the actual midichlorians, as we heard of them in EP1, is a fairly recent addition to the saga. Having written stories myself, I realize the frustration of an idea taking over a story before you realize the idea wasn't what you had envisioned in the first place. I believe GL's idea of the Force was maybe less mystical than how it turned out on screen. If he feels the need to ground the idea a little in actual measurable fact in order to tell his story about Anakin, then so be it. I'll wait until I've watched all movies together to pass judgement on the whole midichlorian idea. Until then I just want to bask in the wonder of being smack dab in the middle of a new Star Wars trilogy. Something we will likely never experience again for the rest of our lives, so why ruin it?

BTW, I do enjoy these discussions, they help me to realize why I enjoy Star Wars so much in the first place.

The action figures, of course!!!:D

stillakid
11-07-2001, 11:36 PM
As BB can attest to, I've stated just about all my arguments several times over, so there isn't much more to say. I would like to go on record as having nothing against a storyteller introducing new exciting elements to a running tale. However, it is vitally important that those new elements mesh perfectly well with every previous word written in relation to the story. That's the whole beef with Midichlorians. If they worked, I'd be fine with it. But they don't, plain and simple. To deny that is to ignore the facts in front of you.

The love triangle thing never bothered me because it was completely plausible within the story that had been written thus far. By the same token, I don't buy the character of Qui Gon because he takes away all the actions that were previously set up as to be Obi Wan's. It's all about the setup and how a storyteller unfolds his tale. GL started telling this thing a long time ago and has a responsibility to remain true to the continuity that he, Huyck, Katz, Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kasdan, and (the writer of ROTJ escapes me at the moment, sorry) set up. When he failed to do so in TPM, many people called him on it. When he realized that he didn't slide a fast one over on us, he felt the need for damage control. There really is no other reasonable explanation for such sloppy storytelling.

The 'Xir
11-08-2001, 03:19 AM
Oy-vey!!!! I have not succumb to rebutting everything in this thread, because I also have debated and expressed my Ideas on this thread all the way back since 1999 when I first joined this site, so don't think that my not challenging you to the letter has anything to do with me not having good arguments against, because I do have a challenge to everything you've said, well almost everything you've said, 'cause obviously not everything you have said is **beeeep** ;) I'm just tired of repeating myself, and having to defend this movie! Just ask JT...oh I miss our little debates! :cool:
No the brother/sister thing never bothered me, because when I first heard it, I was like NO WAY, it was the revelation of it, the excitement, a new twist ,it was like hearing Vader was Luke's father, ok maybe not as good as that ;) but it was exciting!

Let me say this!: When I watch these movies now, I go in with a TOTALLY open mind, no matter what I've heard before hand! The first viewing I let the shock value do it's thing! Then upon second viewing I try to catch things I might have missed along with trying to understand what Lucas is trying to express through his story/art that might have been shocking to me originally! I guess you could say I give him the benefit of the doubt, but I never dismiss anything right away as crap!
Ex) The one thing I'll admit, when I first saw TPM, my only initial reaction that was somewhat less than favorable was the many coincidental-like events that took place! eg)The bigger fish, and Anakins' adventure to the control ship! However I thought to myself, what a minute If I call myself a SW fan then I have to believe in The Force, and the pre-destined events that go with it!Knowing they where heavily pressed upon IN THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY!
// HS-There's no mystical energy field controling my destiny// hehehe yeah right!
So after I thought about it I could accept those seemingly random/lucky/happen-stance events in TPM!

So like I said I never dismiss anything right away as crap, and so when it came to the midichlorians, actually I had more of an accepting response to them then I did the whole fate thing(such an established mechanisim in the SW universe) if you can believe that, I looked at it as a new peice of information I wasn't privy to before! Since we don't have a FULL explanation of them yet I just tried to understand it as best as possible(reading between the lines), even if it meant inventing ideas myself to explain how they might coincide with the Force(which wasn't too difficult to do)! So like I said when I watch these movies, to me it's like taking the peices of the puzzle that are given to me and trying to peice them together! Now You think that puzzle has peices missing, I don't! Because although it takes details to make up the entire picture, the person viewing that picture has to lend his own ideas to it to try and figure out what the artist is trying to say with the picture!
The best example of this that I can think of that portray's what I'm talking about, is you know those funky pictures that are of nothing, but once you squint your eyes a picture within the picture appears? Well, that's the same with any writting, story, poem, movie, song, painting, drawing, sculpture, any form of art!!!! All the peices are given to you, and you have to take them and try to figure out the meaning or message within the picture including the meaning within the details of the picture! Sometimes pictures are just what you see, and other times they are metaphors or obscure references to other meanings and the artist let's you figure it out for yourself! That is why I say, I think you guys look at these movies and take what's in them as too black and white, your to quick to judge in other words!
When you watch these movies try to understand what Lucas is trying to accomplish or get across!
It's almost funny, because what I've just said makes it sound like I go through every detail of this movie and try to read to much into it, but I don't, for me I still call it fantasy, and it comes to me much easier than I make it sound. Yet when I hear you guys talk it sounds like you are the ones that get hung up on the details! Go figure!
If you'd like an example of what I mean, I know most people here don't like the dinner scene in TPM, yet I feel I understand it perfectly, and it makes absolute sense to me within the context of the movie and story! If you don't get it or just don't like it, I will define that scene for you if you want, as I understand it in my next post! Just say the word! :) :D :cool:

JediTricks
11-08-2001, 05:26 AM
Ok gang, we've gotten so far away from "were they in Lucas' mind all along" that I have to try to redirect the discussion back to that. However, I'm not gonna close the thread over the discussion at hand, I'm just now saying we should try to stay on target.

Me, I think Lucas wanted Ep 1 to stand alone TOO MUCH while still having the ability to "wink wink" (as opposed to the Law & Order sound of "bink bink") at the original trilogy, and as a stand-alone movie, the midichlorians would be fine. HOWEVER, as a new element to the saga, I do not believe they work within the confines of the story as a whole as they stand; this is why I've rewritten them in my mind to have it that Qui-Gon doesn't understand the midis at all (just like he's all hepped up on the "Living Force", another left-turn-at-Albuquerque element to the saga) and he's got their existance totally wrong - you can see that theory in my earlier posts. I honestly don't believe the midis are something gnawing away at Lucas since his USC days, I think they're something he thought up while reading to his kids from one of their science books about mitochondria in '98.

---

YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? And well you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life Midichlorians create it, make it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us... via the midichlorians. Luminous beings are we they, not even this crude matter.

---

stillakid
11-08-2001, 11:20 AM
I'll hang with JediTricks on this one (looks like it's just you and me), although I'm not prone to inventing my own reasons for story elements. I prefer to listen to what the writer and director has to say at face value and decide whether or not they've told a good story.

JT is right... at face value, TPM does not hold up on it's own. It's own dialogue contradicts itself. The repeating fish monster scare thing is silly and stupid, the obvious foreshadowing of market woman is lame, the "let's talk about the plot" dinner sequence is classic novice writing, and there are countless other moments that make TPM a poor effort in and of itself.

When stacked up against it's predecessors, it only gets worse. Not only does it not have the quality characters and plot development of the first 3 films, but it goes out of it's way to contradict information that we was set up so solidly beforehand. I've heard the classic excuse that "it's the first movie so he had a lot to set up" too many times. A New Hope was the "first" film and had to set up that universe and managed to do so while still telling a fantastic story. The Universe was already set up, so claiming "first film" is no excuse.

I'm willing to give any story the benefit of the doubt and take my time in evaluating it if I believe that I'm missing something. My own posts on this subject didn't begin for months, perhaps a year or more, after the film was released. These aren't knee-jerk emotional reactions that I've been dishing out. I've taken the time to think through the various ramifications and possible outcomes of the TPM decisions that were made. The conclusions were bleak and the only possible explanation to the initial question is that George Lucas did not think up Midichlorians until sometime in the mid to late '90's and dropped the concept into the story without fully recognizing their full impact.

I would not be surprised one little bit if he was holding out on the DVD release of the original trilogy because he knows full well that he will have to go in to the soundtrack or make CGI changes that will include references to things like Midichlorians, Qui Gon, and any other folly elements that will get dropped into the saga all willy-nilly from here on out that contradict the original story. Hang on to those original VHS copies of the OT...you won't see those versions ever on DVD.

AxA
11-09-2001, 09:18 PM
Jedi Tricks is right, the thread has drifted a little from it's original posted question... (though it's been a good one!)

I'm going to make this one my last post on the subject.

"GL says midichlorians were the idea all along."

-I think we can all agree during the writing of the first trilogy, midi's were not even a glimmer in GL's mind. I think he can totally leave out any more mention of the little critters in the next two films and not risk a conflict inregards to a smooth transition to Episode IV.

Now if only he'd do the same with Jar-Jar..... ;)

stillakid
11-09-2001, 09:32 PM
I don't think that we drifted off the topic at all. It's one thing to state an opinion either way, but inevitably it will be questioned and be asked to back up any assertions made. Your own statement that "we can all agree" will undoubtedly be countered by somebody out there (although I happen to agree with you). It has always seemed painfully obvious that GL is lying or something about Midichlorians being the idea all along, but putting that kind of opinion out there begs for some proof. I feel that I and others here have offered up mountains of evidence to support the claim, but somehow that kind of defense appears to some as drifting from the topic. Not at all. I appreciate the desire to micromanage threads and keep them on very narrow avenues, but without some leeway no meaningful discussion or exploration can ever take place. We'd be trapped in superficial exchanges forever:

SomeBody: I think Maul is better than Vader.

Reply: Oh yeah, well, I think Vader is better than Maul.

Somebody Else: Well, you're both wrong.

Reply: How come?

Somebody Else: I'm not allowed to tell you. That question isn't the topic of the thread.

Somebody: Oh, yeah, well...you're a dumb dumb



So you see, we've all been participating quite well instead of languishing in grade school banter. Cheers!



PS. GL is full of it.:rolleyes:

AxA
11-10-2001, 10:22 AM
Good Point, stillakid.

I stand corrected. (and in the process make THIS post my last one on this thread... :D )

JediTricks
11-10-2001, 11:41 AM
It's the moderator's job to try to keep a thread on topic. Since this section has no moderator at the moment and we had stopped discussing the idea that Lucas created the Midis years and years ago and were simply discussing the midis themselves, I thought it'd only be fair to the thread's author to try to keep it on target. I'm not saying "don't discuss the midis", I was just trying to remind us posters that there was a point to this thread beyond "are the midis good or bad". I guess my words sounded too harsh, as if "YOU MUST TALK ABOUT ONE THING ONLY", but it was only meant as a gentle reminder of the original topic. Clearly, we've built up quite a discussion about the midis themselves, and I'm not trying to put the kybosh (sp?) on that because - let's face it - I'm one of the top offenders in that department. ;)

bigbarada
11-10-2001, 03:06 PM
I've pretty much said all I can say about midichlorians for now. I honestly think GL has something surprising in store for us on the subject of midichlorians in Ep2 or 3. If he's ever been consistent about anything it's plot twists.

The 'Xir
11-11-2001, 05:32 AM
Hhhmmm....

Well let me just say, one thing that makes me..me is that I don't believe in absolutes! I like to be open minded, and in debates I always try to see things from the other person's point of view!!!
For example I've gotten into many(live) discussions with people where I totally agree with what they are saying, but I always try to point out ways to rationalize why the other arguement might be reasonable, and when people can't see those Ideas like I do, I end up defending, not the other view but the fact that the other arguments are possible!!So like I said somewhere before, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt! Call it respectful, call it a flaw of mine, but it's just something I do! So I always try to see things in a different light!

However, on the other hand when I'm sure of something oohhhh can I be ever so adament about an issue!

So when it comes to the Midi's, if you look at the posts of mine before, I admitted that I don't know when Lucas came up with this Idea, all I said is that It could have been a thought(side of the Force), in the back of his mind that, he always wanted to explore! Doesn't anyone here, have thoughts or Ideas that they don't share with anyone, but just because you haven't written them down anywhere, doesn't mean you haven't thought about it!
I was going to go somewhere else with this also but, it's 5am and I'm half drunk, so I forgot!...anyways...

JT - sorry man but I got to point this out! I love your last tag line/signature, 'cause to me that proves a point of mine! Now maybe your just having fun, messing around or whatever, but that line to me just is blaringly obvious that you and probably the other Midi haters, just don't get them yet! You haven't figured them out!
Personally, I see what was said about them In TPM, as all you need to know in order to understand them! MIDICHLORIANS DO NOT CREATE THE FORCE, NOR ARE THEY THE FORCE IN ANYWAY!
This is why the MYSTICISM IS NOT LOST WITH THE INTRO OF MIDI'S, because the Force is still the Force, it's just that Midi's are force sensitive and help The Force user, who has capabilities of his own, harness and channel the force!

I think what Lucas is trying to get across, is more of a metaphysical side of the force, not so much genetics! Meaning when Yoda says to Luke you have to let the Force flow through you.
Luke is opening himself up and totally aware of his entire body's being, and functions! Now the Midi's are stated as being organisims with in us and we are their host! Then If they are Force sensitive and we are symbionts with them, then a Jedi uses HIS powers to get more intouch with that organisims(the Midi's) sensitvity to the Force!

Now what I think Qui-Gon is eluding to("without the Midi's we would have no knowledge of the force"), that hasn't been described yet, so we'll have to be patient and wait and see, is that We or Jedi can still be Force Sensitve on our own, but without these symbionts we wont know how to fully use, develop, or understand the Force and it's many aspects!

I know I'm probably way off base and all :rolleyes: , but these are my drunken thoughts for the evening/morning at 5:28am and now I'm going to bed! :) Peace! :D

JediTricks
11-12-2001, 03:22 AM
Xir, seriously, lay off the booze. ;) I was trying to shoehorn in Midis to a Yoda comment... kinda like how Lucas is trying to shoehorn them into the entire Star Wars mythos. :evil:

The 'Xir
11-13-2001, 01:31 AM
I figured that you we're just having a little fun and all, but I know how people think and some people out there would take your little "bit o' wit" to heart, so...you know me ;) I can't let that happen, so of course I gotta argue the matter :D **BUUURRRRPPPP** Xcuse me :sur: :stupid: :p :dead: :zzz:

chewie
11-24-2001, 12:51 AM
The whole idea of a "force baby" as Anakin I think causes the most contention. Lucas for some reason wanted to make Anakin a pure creation of the force, but instead of just keeping it an immaculate conception, he brings about the notion that the physical midichlorians somehow fertilized Shmi.

Making Anakin semi-godlike (as much as a force/midichlorian explaination will aloow), and having him basically become the Star Wars version of the anti-christ was totally unecessary other than to make Anakin's fall potentially seem more tragic. That's the only reason that the midichlorian explaination exists. This plot device has already served its purpose, but is now part of the canon of how the force operates. For a few minutes of conversation in ep1 was it really worth it to make ep4-6 totally oblivious of this notion?

Han's referral to the jedi way has being a "hokey" religion is now also wrong. Nobody would bother to train to become a jedi unless they had enough midichlorians to be able to use the force. So jedi can now be assumed to be a bunch of genetically gifted individuals, rather than a bunch of extremely religiously devoted people that also gained the use of special abilities from attempting to become more in tune with what surrounds them rather than already being born with the ability. I doubt there's a single member of the Jedi Council that has so low a midichlorian count that they cannot use the force that well. They wouldn't be there if they weren't "born" to be there. Which is the problem with midichlorians.

stillakid
11-24-2001, 01:16 AM
I still like to refer back to JT's "quote" about the Emperor needing to have his Midichlorian's checked after he doesn't "feel" Luke's presence the way Vader does. If anything dis-proves the validity of Midichlorians, that exchange does. In the "canon" of the original trilogy, Midichlorian's cannot exist. Just can't.

Oh, and I never jump into an argument that I haven't looked at from all angles. Doing that dooms you to failure. Ask any lawyer. They only ask questions on the stand that they already know the answer to. The only possible explanation for the introduction of Midichlorian's was as a cheap ill-concieved plot device to "prove" that Anakin had Force ability. Now the rest of the films have to continue on that path to justify their initial foray into the saga. Of course there is that impending wall somewhere around A New Hope, but the DVD release will undoubtedly take care of that small problem.:crazed:

Wolfwood319
11-24-2001, 04:11 AM
I think that midis were GL's way of explaining how the force exists. He may not have specifically thought of midis, or genetic, living organisms, but he did at least want some way of explaining the force.

About halfway through this thread there were posts made that said something along the lines that when ANH first came out, Luke was presented as a regular Joe that we can all aspire to be. Now, however, with the inclusion of midis, GL's saying that not everyone can be what Luke is, and not everyone can aspire to be Jedis, no matter how hard they tried.

I for one thought that about the Jedis from when I first saw the film. You have to be strong in the force to train to be a jedi, and midis are one way that GL uses to measure how strong in the force someone actually is.

If you look at all the SW movies as a hole, there are a lot of things that don't quite fit.

1. The 2 droids that encompass the rebels entire hope just happen to be purchased by the son of the second in command to the ruler of the galaxy.

2. When the DS reaches Yavin, it circles Yavin to get at Yavin 4, where all it had to do was blow up Yavin and be done with it.

3. Somewhere between ANH and ESB, Vader finds out that the guy who blew up the DS just happens to be the son he never knew he had. Never is this explained anywhere, not even SOTME.

4. Luke just happens to rescue a princess out of an imperial space station, that just happens to be his sister. Which is hinted at in ESB, but then told in ROTJ. This throws the whole love triangle aspect out the window.

5. My personal favorite; on Jabba's sail barge, Luke gets shot in his hand when his arms are raised above his head, by a guy that's standing no more than 3 feet away from Luke. Then he stops, and waits for Luke to grab his hand, turn towards him, and waits for Luke to strike him down.

These are just examples, but what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of things in SW movies that need to be taken with a grain of salt. To single out midichloreans and say that the OT doesn't hold up anymore because of them is a bit much.

Someone mentioned how much Tolkien changed things around, but yet his books are still considered the best of the 20th century. Theres nothing wrong with a story teller adding elements to his existing story for his own idea of what HIS story is. He may not thought of Midichloreans specifically by name back in the beginning, but it no one can say that he did not have a preconceived explanation of what the force is.

I really don't see how midichloreans cannot exist in the OT. I've seen those movies dozens of times since I've seen TPM, and I have no problem with the concept that midichloreans are present, just not talked about.

They're just movies people, try not to lose any sleep over them.

JediTricks
11-24-2001, 07:17 AM
Wolfwood, on a point by point comparison of things that you say don't quite fit, you've found MINOR elements (a gas giant almost certainly would be unaffected by the Death Star's superlaser, which would then need another 24 hours to recharge; Luke becomes a major Rebel hero and his last name is "Skywalker", obviously it wouldn't be THAT hard to figure out who the kid was; Lucas likes to use coincidences), however Midichlorians are a newly-added gigantic element of the entire underlying theme of the Star Wars saga, the Force - these 2 issues are NOT the same.

stillakid
11-24-2001, 01:22 PM
1. The 2 droids that encompass the rebels entire hope just happen to be purchased by the son of the second in command to the ruler of the galaxy.

Not out of the question. Obi Wan hid Luke with his brother, Owen, and purposely stayed nearby to await the time when Luke would be strong enough to carry on the fight and also to protect the boy until he could be trained. If there is an "unlikely" coincidence, it begins earlier on the Tantive IV when Leia chooses R2 to carry the message down to the surface. If you can get past that, everything else makes perfect sense.

2. When the DS reaches Yavin, it circles Yavin to get at Yavin 4, where all it had to do was blow up Yavin and be done with it.

This was a question posed some time ago to someone at Lucasfilm. The answer that came back was that while the Death Star was powerful, Yavin was too bit to destroy with that version of the Death Star. Not to mention that blowing up a planet that size might very well have destroyed the Death Star in the process. It is completely understandable that the Death Star had to circle the planet.

3. Somewhere between ANH and ESB, Vader finds out that the guy who blew up the DS just happens to be the son he never knew he had. Never is this explained anywhere, not even SOTME.

We don't know that Vader doesn't know about his children. What is clear is that he foresake everything in order to follow the Emperor. It is entirely conceivable that the Imperial spies found out who fired the fatal shot and reported back to the Emperor and Vader. In pre-TPM writing, GL and Kasdan gave the audience some credit and didn't feel the need to hammer the audience over the head with such obvious plot points.

4. Luke just happens to rescue a princess out of an imperial space station, that just happens to be his sister. Which is hinted at in ESB, but then told in ROTJ. This throws the whole love triangle aspect out the window.

In classic lore, the hero has to enter the dragon's lair to rescue the fair princess. Standard mythology there. As far as them being brother and sister, sure it is convenient, but not out of the question. No continuity is destroyed. In fact, the story is made even more secure and hole free as we know that Anakin and Amidala had twins, who Obi Wan split up to protect them. Introducing a new major character in ROTJ or a later episode who would be Luke's sibling would be loose and not very efficient writing. The love triangle was an aside in A New Hope. Luke's lustful interest clearly started waning once he began serious training as a Jedi.

5. My personal favorite; on Jabba's sail barge, Luke gets shot in his hand when his arms are raised above his head, by a guy that's standing no more than 3 feet away from Luke. Then he stops, and waits for Luke to grab his hand, turn towards him, and waits for Luke to strike him down.

No argument here. The entire Jabba barge fight is silly. The lightsaber loses its ability to slice through things and alien beings. There are a lot of conveniences taken throughout ROTJ, most notably when the Ewoks manage to quickly knock out armor clad Stormtroopers with little rocks. While this stuff is silly, it really in no way is a major continuity problem within the series. Just simplistic ways to move the plot forward without introducing significant obstacles for the heroes.

The Midichlorians, on the other hand, alter the entire idea of what the Force is, how it is used, and who can do it. There are hundreds of bloopers and happy coincidences within the three first films, but none so terrible that they cause continuity concerns for the rest of the series.

Wolfwood319
11-24-2001, 02:17 PM
I didn't mean for the comparisons I make to be compared to the midichlorean deboggle, I'm just saying that if you look at the entire series of films, from one movie compared to the next, that a lot of things just need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Sure my examples aren't debated as midis are now, but think of what these forums would be talking about if it existed in 1983.

I personally didn't like the midi concept, but I liked the fact that they did try to explain what the force is, all genetics aside.

If GL says that he had midis in mind from the beginning, so be it. Its his story to tell. Now 25 years later, he decides he wants to add in new elements to his story, so be it. Who are we to tell GL that his concept of Star Wars is wrong.

stillakid
11-24-2001, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
Who are we to tell GL that his concept of Star Wars is wrong.

Um, paying customers. :rolleyes:

Wolfwood319
11-24-2001, 05:45 PM
If you don't like it, don't buy it.

JediTricks
11-26-2001, 02:15 AM
I don't get this, why would we need explanation on how the Force works? We got that in ANH and ESB, does Lucas not appreciate the way that was laid out? I mean, Obi-Wan introduces us to the Force in a very mystical way in ANH, and Yoda takes us through the philosophical and pratical elements in ESB - why isn't that enough? We read fantasy stories all the time of gods and magical heroes and whatnot; do we need to know how Zeus' powers affect the air to cause lighting from his hands? Or are we supposed to be unable to fathom the Force unless it has a technical jargon explanation behind it? Do you NEED to know how photons don't have gravitational effect to see them in action? Sure, we could try to theorize that photons have no Higgs elements surrounding them and thus, have no weight even in heavy-gravity atmospheres, but that doesn't really add anything to your use of a lamp, does it?

stillakid
11-26-2001, 02:36 AM
Don't buy it, huh?

I see you don't own your own business. It's clear that Lucas was aiming for the lowest common denominator with TPM. "Artists" do this for only one reason: to attract as many paying customers as possible. It's understandable after he dumped over one-hundred million of his own money into it. It's completely natural that he'd want as many people to see it as possible.

Yes, he did make his money back on TPM. Because it was good? Nope. Because it had a terrific lead in: a trilogy of films that have held up for over twenty years. The audience was built in. The problem now is that after disappointing so many people, can he attract those casual fans who make up the vast majority of ticket buyers? He's always got us, the "true fans" who spend time writing silly opinions on chatboards, but will the standard moviegoing audience forgive him enough to shell out their money again. Who knows? I don't, but despite his insistence that Midi's were part of the story all along plus any other defensive manuevers that he's attempted concerning TPM, he obviously took some heed from the backlash and brought in some help to write Attack of the Clones. (thank god)

After dropping another hundred million +, and after hearing so much negativity regarding TPM, he should be interested in doing whatever is necessary to attract all those that he disappointed. That's simple economics, not my opinion.

Wolfwood319
11-26-2001, 02:49 AM
Oh I agree completely on that last statement.

But from a personal financial standpoint of GL, he's only doing these movies for the story. The hundred mil he spent on TPM was a drop in the bucket for him.

And as for casual film goers? I don't think that AOTC will get the big numbers that TPM got from a box office point of view, because it isn't the "new star wars movie" anymore, instead its the "next/newest star wars movie."

But GL himself said that each new movie will make less then the previous one. Of course he also said that it wouldn't live up to the hype either, but that's another story....

stillakid
11-26-2001, 11:02 AM
I think that that has been our underlying point all along: it didn't have to be that way. With just another rewrite and some honest advice from any qualified screenwriter, TPM could have been just as good as any of the other films and quite possibly better. All the elements were there for an amazingly successful project, but it doesn't take a lot of error in a film for it to be a disappointment to the audience. He came very close to creating a near-perfect film, but there's just enough wrong to turn off a lot of people. Based on what you said, it sounds like GL is trying to drive the audience away. He expects it to happen so he's not putting in much effort.

Of course the other problem has to do with adversity. Most filmmakers (and other artists for that matter) do their best work when pressure is applied against their efforts. The movie JAWS is a good example. The plan was for the shark to be seen a whole lot more than it is. Because it just wouldn't work right, it ends up being this mysterious idea for most of the movie. Instead of a blood and gore film, it turned out to be more of a suspense-thriller that excited audiences more that Spielberg or the studio could have ever expected.

Lucas now has all the power and resources that anyone could ever ask for. There is no one to stand in his way or tell him that he's doing it wrong. Sure, it's pure creative freedom...the thing that all artists long for. But precedent shows us over and over again that the struggle to create is part of the process and typically results in a much better result.

George can do whatever he wants. The question is, should he?

Wolfwood319
11-26-2001, 01:58 PM
Its funny when you talk about GL's writing and directing. To this day, GL has directed only 4 movies, not counting AOTC. So I hardly think he is a proven director.

The big thing here though is the screenplay. As with ANH, TPM's screenplay was all written by him. The difference between TPM and ANH is that in 1976, GL was still an unknown who got good actors to star in his movie. The actors would constantly change dialogue on a whim, or suggest to GL a better alternative. A lot of what made ANH good was the actors doing.

Now come to 1998, Star Wars is one of the biggest pop culture icons out there. GL is revered as a God by many. He hires a lot of well known actors. But this time around, the actors don't change dialogue, or suggest new ideas, because its such a big production(compared to ANH) and no one wants to second guess GL.

With AOTC he has brought in some help, just like he did with ESB (even though he is still directing AOTC) and he seems to have gotten on the right track. Hopefully AOTC will be better, and from the trailers, it does indeed look better.

stillakid
11-26-2001, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Wolfwood319
The big thing here though is the screenplay. As with ANH, TPM's screenplay was all written by him.

That's almost true. If you've ever read any of the drafts that GL wrote on his own, you'll see how terrible they are. Really bad. The basics of the story are there, but it took a couple of his friends, Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, to give the thing a polish. They smoothed out the plot and added punch to the dialogue. By the time production rolled around, the screenplay was in shootable shape.

A read of TPM and taking a look at what ended up on screen smacks a lot of those initial drafts of A New Hope. The curious question is why he reverted back to going it alone on TPM. He had help with Empire (Leigh Brackett, Lawrence Kasdan) and Jedi (Lawrence Kasdan) as well, but for some reason felt that he wouldn't need it for TPM. I have to believe that he's seen the error in judgment since he's hired writer Jonathan Hales for Episodes II and III. Maybe Hales can help get George out of the corner that he's written himself into.

For more information on any of those writers, go to www.imdb.com.

Allie Fox
12-17-2001, 02:14 PM
I have to say in Lucas' defense that HE did 95% of the writing on ALL scripts. The original Star Wars script was touched up by Huyck and Katz but no more than a few lines of dialogue here and there.

Leigh Brackett was givin free reign to script Empire but died immediately after finishing the first draft (actually it wasn't even fully complete then). Almost all of what Ms. Brackett wrote was discarded and Mr. Lucas did a complete re-write. Mr. Kasdan was brought in to review and touch up the script the same way the the Huyck/Katz team did. Ms. Brackett was given a credit out of respect.

Mr. Kasdan was retained to script Jedi but as a script doctor more than the primary writer.

As for Phantom Menace, we see Mr. Lucas writing the script in one of the earlier films posted at the official site. It was started much like the other three scripts, in long hand on a yellow legal pad.


STILL, this doesn't apply to the topic at hand. In reading the earlier drafts of the original film's script, the evidence is VERY circumstantially leaning toward the midi-chlorians being a new development.

Someone mentioned LAWYER. My feeling is that if we presented this evidence in a criminal case, Mr. Lucas would be aquitted; meaning the midi-chlorians might be new but there just isn't enough evidence to prove it.

However, in a civil case. . .

"GEORGE!!! You got alot of splainin' ta dooo!"

I also wonder what "normal" people think of the midi-chlorians? As a bunch of lifeless nerds who obviously have nothing better to do than debate the reason a padawan wears a braid on a particular side of their head I sometimes wonder if we delve just a little too deep. :sur: Are we fans to the point that we can no longer enjoy these films at face value? If midi-chlorians are never mentioned again, are there going to be generations of viewers walking around going, "huh?" That's unlikely. If there is too much of an issue made then Star Wars will be a footnote in film history as one of the greatest money making film series ever.

But I think WE FANS (the lifeless nerds. . .) want more. We want Star Wars to be as responsible as a piece of fine literature. Maybe we are the scholars of tomorrow. Analysts like those who look into Alighieri, Shakespeare and Goethe. Maybe the posts we post today might be the historical debate looked at in centuries to come. One might hope!

Midi-chlorians or not Star Wars is destined for greatness in one medium or another.

But why can't it be both. . .:crazed:

stillakid
12-17-2001, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Allie Fox
I have to say in Lucas' defense that HE did 95% of the writing on ALL scripts. The original Star Wars script was touched up by Huyck and Katz but no more than a few lines of dialogue here and there.

Leigh Brackett was givin free reign to script Empire but died immediately after finishing the first draft (actually it wasn't even fully complete then). Almost all of what Ms. Brackett wrote was discarded and Mr. Lucas did a complete re-write. Mr. Kasdan was brought in to review and touch up the script the same way the the Huyck/Katz team did. Ms. Brackett was given a credit out of respect.

Mr. Kasdan was retained to script Jedi but as a script doctor more than the primary writer.

As for Phantom Menace, we see Mr. Lucas writing the script in one of the earlier films posted at the official site. It was started much like the other three scripts, in long hand on a yellow legal pad.


The amount of reworking that anyone did is open for debate until one of them steps forward. Regardless, a great man once said that "writing is rewriting." Clearly Lucas concocted the fundamentals of the story and may have laid out the basic plotlines, but I'd be more than happy to send anyone copies of the original drafts of ANH which are nearly incomprehensible. It is a miracle that anyone saw the potential in it based on those scripts. And a special thank you to Ralph McQuarrie.

The "minor" rewriting by Kasdan and others can make all the difference in the world. As I've said before, I think that TPM is almost there. He almost had a good story. All that was needed was that editor's touch from any number of his friends and/or co-workers much like he has done for every other screenplay that he has produced.

Lucas has a grand imagination for certain, but that doesn't make him a great writer. You're shortchanging Huyck, Katz, and Kasdan's contributions as simply changing a line here and there. H and K redid almost all the dialogue for ANH and if you've read any of Kasdan's other fine works, you'll see his vast influence in ESB and ROTJ. More than just a little tinkering as you imply.

And, yes, I've talked in brief with "non-SW geeks" about the Midi thing. The consensus I've gotten is that it didn't seem to make much sense to them so they more or less ignored it. They recognize it as a problem but don't care enough to give it more thought than that. So, the underlying issue in your question is, no, we aren't reading more into the Midi-concern than is there. Midi's suck, they don't belong, they were a mistake, everybody knows it. Some choose to ignore it but that doesn't change the basic fact.

bigbarada
12-18-2001, 01:38 AM
Lawrence Kasdan wrote the entire script for ESB, GL and Irvin Kershner helped revise it.

I was disappointed to read in the Annotated Screenplays that most of the best lines from ANH weren't written by GL.

Stillakid, I do agree that TPM could have used at least one more rewrite to streamline it a little better. However, I still hold out that the midi thing has a purpose other than for GL to say, "Hey, I can be scientific!" Although that is a distinct possibility.

I've inadvertantly created a bunch of midi-haters in my casual SW fan friends. Once I bring up some of the arguments against midis discussed here they agree all too easily. However, I will be the stubborn jack:eek::eek::eek: and continue to hold out for Ep3.

JediTricks
12-18-2001, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
And, yes, I've talked in brief with "non-SW geeks" about the Midi thing. The consensus I've gotten is that it didn't seem to make much sense to them so they more or less ignored it. They recognize it as a problem but don't care enough to give it more thought than that. It's the same with me and my discussions with 'non-geeks', they didn't like it, they didn't get it, and so they actively forgot it instead of caring about the issue. How many major elements of ANH and the Star Wars Saga are as "forgettable" to the regular audience of 1977 and beyond as these Midis? Honestly, I can't think of ONE. People seem fascinated by "The Force" from the original saga, X-wings capture their imaginations, as do landspeeders, lightsabers, Lando, Yoda, Jawas, Ewoks and even Leia's hairstyles have captured the majority of general audiences where Midichlorians have not. Where R2-D2 and C-3PO have become part of our culture, midi-chlorians have become a selectively-forgotten tarnish on the Star Wars logo.

Hence, I spread my message that QGJ was all mixed up about Midis so that someday, midis won't end up the tarnish that Jar Jar was. ;) :crazed:

Rollo Tomassi
12-18-2001, 08:58 AM
And Jar Jar has two more movies and two more chances to redeem himself...:p




and/or die.;)

stillakid
12-18-2001, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
And Jar Jar has two more movies and two more chances to redeem himself...:p

and/or die!

SithDroid
01-11-2002, 03:41 PM
The midichlorian thing does not make any sense. Qui-Gon described it to Anakin as "microscopic lifeforms that reside within all LIVING cells". The key here is living. If something is destroyed, let us say to make plastic, then the cells are no longer living. And if the midichlorians talk to each other and tell each other what to do, then the "Force" should only be able to work on organic or living material. Hence the Jedi's being able to use the Force to grab their Lightsaber is totally false. I'm just trying to look at it from a scientific point of view. That is why I never liked the idea of the whole midichlorian thing. It's not consistent with science. George should have just left it as Yoda originally explained it in ESB. So far the prequel is turning out to have more holes in the plot than a piece of swiss cheese. I only notive these inconsistencies in the scripts because I write stories myself and continuity is always on my mind. Anyone agree here?

bigbarada
01-14-2002, 11:08 PM
Once upon a time, George was replacing the light bulb in his bathroom and he slipped and bashed his head on the sink. Suddenly, a vision came to him of millions of microscopic life-forms inhabiting all living cells. He thought to himself, "What a great way to describe the Force! Gene Roddenberry would be so proud!"

So after many years of trying to make them fit into his prequels storyline, he simply settled with the "talking" idea. Because these movies are for kids and we all know how stupid kids are. Then a tiny hint of doubt began tugging at his mind, "What will all the adult fans who grew up with the series think of this?"

This doubt stuck with him for months until he read, in magazine articles and interviews, how he is such a genius and the magic of creativity just flows through him like so many bad burritos. So he thought to himself, "If they think I'm a genius now just wait until I unveil my microflourian theory!" (for you see it was exactly 22 minutes before he decided to call them midichlorians, then hexoglorans, then pentoclogdils, then tiny lil' Jedi makers, then eventually right back to midichlorians.)

So, with his confidence renewed, George sat down and began rewriting the script to Ep1 this time with his wonderful new, "everybody will be in awe of my ponderous brain" midichlorian theory. The rest is history, until George decides to rewrite it again.

:rolleyes:

mabudonicus
01-15-2002, 01:20 PM
Firstly, BBs theory best explains the mediclorients( I still thought he just copped it from X-files). And Jeditricks' last post is perfect- gl has no problem retroactively fleshing out films, so let the whole ridicloriands thing be swept under the carpet as the reason why QGJ was not looked upon very highly by the Council.
"Your master he was, but wrong about the force was he .Humour him we did,but save him we could not.Speak of the medichlorians ever again you musn't!!" Yoda to Obi wan,AOTC
This solution takes care of the whole mess!! Wooooo!!

El Chuxter
01-15-2002, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
How many major elements of ANH and the Star Wars Saga are as "forgettable" to the regular audience of 1977 and beyond as these Midis?

"The Emperor has disbanded the Senate" was a throwaway line to most audience members in 1977. Until the Emperor actually appeared in a major role in ROTJ, the few folks who thought of him (outside of hardcore fans) thought of him only as "that ghost guy from Empire."

Defend the midichlorions I do not. A bad idea they may now seem, but until we see how they play in the next two movies, so hateful of them we should not be.

Besides, until Uncle George disproves it conclusively, I go with JT's idea that Qui-Gon was backwards on how midichlorions were used to measure Force potential*.

* - Besides, they're no dumber a way to detect Force potential than those stupid paddles Luke uses in the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

SithDroid
01-15-2002, 03:45 PM
Yes, but does anyone have a reply to my whole previous statement that I said which is below. If you can give me an explanation, then I'd love to hear it.



The midichlorian thing does not make any sense. Qui-Gon described it to Anakin as "microscopic lifeforms that reside within all LIVING cells". The key here is living. If something is destroyed, let us say to make plastic, then the cells are no longer living. And if the midichlorians talk to each other and tell each other what to do, then the "Force" should only be able to work on organic or living material. Hence the Jedi's being able to use the Force to grab their Lightsaber is totally false. I'm just trying to look at it from a scientific point of view. That is why I never liked the idea of the whole midichlorian thing. It's not consistent with science. George should have just left it as Yoda originally explained it in ESB. So far the prequel is turning out to have more holes in the plot than a piece of swiss cheese. I only notive these inconsistencies in the scripts because I write stories myself and continuity is always on my mind. Anyone agree here?

Perhaps I should be a script consultant for Lucasfilm.

SithDroid
01-16-2002, 05:56 PM
Also one other thing I was thinking about recently. If indeed it is true that GL is going to mess around with the OT to fit the whole midichlorian thing in, I have an easier solution. Instead of messing with the OT and having tons of fans upset with it, why doesn't he just make a Special Edition of TPM. The scenes where they discuss midichlorians can be cut easily.

The first time midichlorians are mentioned is when Qui Gon is cleaning Anakin's cut. He then sends it away to Obi-Wan to be analyzed. This whole scene can be cut and not detract from the story. We've already heard Qui-Gon talk about how he feels the boy is special and that's all we need.

The second time it is mentioned is when Qui-Gon says to the Jedi Council that the boy has the highest concentration of midichlorians that he has ever seen. A quick editing of the scene could fix that, or why not just schedule a pick up shooting to rework something so minor. It would take a 1/2 a day at most to fix it.

The third time it is mentioned is when Anakin asks "I heard Master Yoda talking about midichlorians. I was wondering what are midichlorians." This whole scene can be cut and re-edited. It is an easy fix.

Those are the only three times, at least off the top of my memory, where midichlorians are mentioned. It would be extremely easy to fix those. Anyone agree? It seems like a less of a hassle than messing with the OT. Plus I think that if he did mess with the OT then fans would be outraged. By fixing TPM the fans would be pleased because there would be no mention of them and the OT wouldn't be touched. Anyone think I should pitch this idea to GL?

bigbarada
01-16-2002, 07:58 PM
It would be much easier to remove midis from Ep1, especially since all the actors are still alive and only a few years older. Easy enough to redub some dialog and maybe reshoot a scene or two. However, the chances of this actually happening are about nil.:(

Allie Fox
02-15-2008, 04:51 PM
Does everyone still feel the same about midi chlorians?

:hurt:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-15-2008, 06:24 PM
I don't know if this has been alluded to in this thread (I'm not going to reread it all), but in Making of Star Wars, there's a 1977 interview with Lucas in which he mentions midi-chlorians. No revisionism, no mistakes. Look it up if you want to.

Wait, here's the text for you, from page 353 of the hardback edition:

"The Force is really a way of feeling; it's a way of being with life. It really has nothing to do with weapons. The Force gives you the power to have extrasensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things. It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells."

2-1B
02-15-2008, 07:03 PM
I love midichlorians.

JediTricks
02-15-2008, 08:36 PM
I don't know if this has been alluded to in this thread (I'm not going to reread it all), but in Making of Star Wars, there's a 1977 interview with Lucas in which he mentions midi-chlorians. No revisionism, no mistakes. Look it up if you want to.

Wait, here's the text for you, from page 353 of the hardback edition:
It has been, and is still in question at this point IMO. Are you sure it's from a '77 interview? The book plays fast and loose with interview dates, that's why I am questioning it.

Rocketboy
02-15-2008, 11:08 PM
I love midichlorians.Me too! I loves me a big bowl of 'em with milk every morning!*









*It's part of a balanced breakfast!

stillakid
02-15-2008, 11:20 PM
Me too! I loves me a big bowl of 'em with milk every morning!*









*It's part of a balanced breakfast!

Interesting idea. Kellogg's could have "MidichloriOs" with a "dark side" in chocolate and a "light side" sugar coating. Mmmmm!

Mr. JabbaJohnL
02-16-2008, 01:07 AM
It has been, and is still in question at this point IMO. Are you sure it's from a '77 interview? The book plays fast and loose with interview dates, that's why I am questioning it.
I'll say it again, that the page before it states that the interviews in that section were conducted on three days in July and August 1977. I know the rest of the book is kind of loose with that but it explicitly states the dates for this part.

bigbarada
02-16-2008, 02:14 AM
I'll say it again, that the page before it states that the interviews in that section were conducted on three days in July and August 1977. I know the rest of the book is kind of loose with that but it explicitly states the dates for this part.

I'd chalk that up to either a misprint or revisionist history. I don't trust any information about the "making of" Star Wars written after 1994. Lucas changes his story too much and takes more and more credit for himself and gives less and less credit to the real creative geniuses behind Star Wars (Johnston, Tippet, McQuarrie, Jamero, etc).

JediTricks
02-16-2008, 05:55 PM
First time I've seen comment about that. It's extremely odd that it only appears in the hardcover and hasn't come up before.

Jedi_Kal-El
02-16-2008, 06:34 PM
Interesting idea. Kellogg's could have "MidichloriOs" with a "dark side" in chocolate and a "light side" sugar coating. Mmmmm!

Mmm Mmm Mmm, Choco sugar coated MidichloriOs. Delicious. :thumbsup:

Devil King
02-16-2008, 10:23 PM
Midichlorians in the hands of a guy that has owned the liscensing and sequel rights since 1977, seems pretty-damed unlikely.

He changes his story more than a witness if the first 2 hours of JFK.

stillakid
02-16-2008, 10:57 PM
Mmm Mmm Mmm, Choco sugar coated MidichloriOs. Delicious. :thumbsup:


I like to begin my morning with a bowl of C3PO's then a slice of wheat toast (with butter) and end with a bowl of MidichloriO's*. It makes me feel like I can take on the whole Universe. :love:



*part of this complete breakfast.

El Chuxter
02-18-2008, 11:43 PM
He changes his story more than a witness if the first 2 hours of JFK.

I like that analogy.

In other words, he changes his story more than Vanilla Ice talking about the "Suge Knight Incident." (Watch him on Behind the Music if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

stillakid
02-19-2008, 12:06 AM
History is written by the victors. I'd say that #64 on the Forbes list of Billionaires has us all beat. :whip:

JediTricks
02-19-2008, 12:40 AM
#86 last year. Quick, get David Geffen (#52) to change the story!

JON9000
02-19-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm not in love with the concept of midichlorians, but it is amusing to watch those who hate the concept of midichlorians covering their eyes and refusing to believe that they can no longer dismiss it as "retconning". Read 'em and weep, party people.

Good find, JJL.

El Chuxter
02-19-2008, 04:24 PM
I'd still want to see some independent corroboration that the interviews were from the 70s, which shouldn't be too hard.

Independent evidence (meaning actual LFL info from the 70s that was located and put online by someone not connected to Lucas) that the Stormtroopers were intended to be clones is out there. So where's the evidence that the midichlorions have been around all along?

I'm not saying it's not right, or that the evidence doesn't exist, but I find it a little surprising that it's not accessible online via scans from the original, or something.

Droid
02-19-2008, 05:41 PM
I frankly don't care what terrible ideas Lucas had in his head since the '70's. He actively chose not to put those terrible ideas into the original trilogy - or maybe someone convinced him not to put them into the original trilogy. If there was such a thing as the midis, Ben or Yoda would have mentioned them in the original trilogy. That is all there is to it. And even in AOTC or ROTS, we didn't get any new information about them. It was much speculated in this thread - and I always thought - it would turn out that the mids were attracted to Force users, not that it caused the Force or that they were needed to use the Force. But by the end of ROTS, the Yoda and Obi-wan of the prequels would have put just as much faith in the midis as they did in TPM.

Why didn't they do a midi count to see if Luke or Leia had a higher midi count? If the mids are so important, why wasn't that said on screen?

Why didn't the Emperor order that all newborn children would have midi tests and those with high counts would be killed?

No, it was a terrible idea and doesn't match up with the original trilogy.

Of late, it is clear that Lucas feels as though he has never had a bad idea and that any time he didn't use one of his ideas he felt it should be saved for later, or that some bad guy studio or friend of his wouldn't let him use his bad idea so he saved it to use later as revenge for the time he couldn't use his bad idea.

Maybe he always had the idea for the midichlorians. So what does that make the prequels - the stuff that wasn't good enough for the original trilogy?

JON9000
02-19-2008, 06:04 PM
Maybe he always had the idea for the midichlorians. So what does that make the prequels - the stuff that wasn't good enough for the original trilogy?

No, it means that the first four films in order of release all expand our knowledge of the nature of the force.

ANH: the force is an energy field, has a light and dark side

ESB: the dark side of the force comes from passion, the good from calm, turning to the darkside is forever.

ROTJ: oops, you can be redeemed from the darkside!

TPM: the point of human/force interaction is through a particular sub-cellular process- a particularly high count of these little guys correlates to higher force sensitivity. God forbid the prequels should change your view of "the force".

Is that concept really so much more horrible than "being good at the force is like being good at basketball"?

Oh, and who knows, maybe they did do all that stuff you mention. It just wasn't shown in the movie because it wouldn't have really advanced the plot. That's just what the ROTS coda needed:

"Gee, Yoda, we should test them for Midis and herpes!"

Sheesh.

JediTricks
02-19-2008, 06:05 PM
I'd still want to see some independent corroboration that the interviews were from the 70s, which shouldn't be too hard.It gets a little harder when the interviewer died in the '70s. :ermm:


Independent evidence (meaning actual LFL info from the 70s that was located and put online by someone not connected to Lucas) that the Stormtroopers were intended to be clones is out there. So where's the evidence that the midichlorions have been around all along?

I'm not saying it's not right, or that the evidence doesn't exist, but I find it a little surprising that it's not accessible online via scans from the original, or something.Yeah, that's where I'm at too.



I frankly don't care what terrible ideas Lucas had in his head since the '70's. He actively chose not to put those terrible ideas into the original trilogy - or maybe someone convinced him not to put them into the original trilogy. If there was such a thing as the midis, Ben or Yoda would have mentioned them in the original trilogy. That is all there is to it. And even in AOTC or ROTS, we didn't get any new information about them. It was much speculated in this thread - and I always thought - it would turn out that the mids were attracted to Force users, not that it caused the Force or that they were needed to use the Force. But by the end of ROTS, the Yoda and Obi-wan of the prequels would have put just as much faith in the midis as they did in TPM.That's a good point, Lucas had a lot of ideas that he threw out, doesn't make 'em golden. Still, this one feels phony baloney, so I'm waiting for more evidence.

El Chuxter
02-19-2008, 06:08 PM
A transcript originating from somewhere other than LFL's vaults is plenty of corroboration for me. I thought the thing about clones was a recent phenomenon, until I saw the 1979 (?) Stormtrooper poster that said the same thing. (Of course, it also mentioned them retiring to some out-of-the-way world, which has yet to be brought up again.)

Devil King
02-19-2008, 06:18 PM
Like most people, I grew up wanting to know more about the clone wars that had been mentioned in ANH. But, one of the few things I think make sense about the prequels is that Stormtroopers are clones. But I think it would have made more sense if both sides of the war were using clones. (I'm not down with the brightly coloured, more advanced technology that is everywhere in the prequels though. That **** is for the birds.)

CropDuster
02-21-2008, 09:39 AM
Face it, people. When he changes his story you must unlearn what you have learned. Logic and sense matter not.
GL is master of his domain.

El Chuxter
02-21-2008, 09:42 AM
Does that mean he won the contest? :lipsrsealed: