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Beast
05-19-2002, 12:36 AM
Good Lord, is this gonna be brought up ever time a new movie is released. Lucas just can't win, and it's getting really sickening to have to read this BS everytime. I mean seriously, what is Lucas supposed to do, never hire anything but white actors to do voices or play the bad guys? I mean for cripes sake, the most evil person in the entire saga is a crusty old white Emporer. Take a read of this stuff from the Detroit News. Link to the article online, as well as pictures and contact info: http://www.detnews.com/2002/entertainment/0205/18/d01-492788.htm

Critics say 'Clones' has racial stereotypes:
By Michael H. Hodges / The Detroit News

George Lucas, sometimes accused of reinforcing racial stereotypes with his movies, has done it again, according to critics.

Latino critics in particular charge his latest Star Wars epic, Episode II: Attack of the Clones, toys with American paranoia about Mexican immigration with its cloned army of swarthy lookalikes who march in lockstep by the tens of thousands, and ultimately end up serving as Darth Vader's white-suited warriors.

Modeled on bounty hunter Jango Fett, the clones, we're told, are genetically modified for docility and obedience. The breeding project, conducted by long-necked aliens who look like refugees from Close Encounters of the Third Kind, takes place on the planet Kamino -- soundalike for the Spanish word "camino," which means "road" or "I walk."

Temuera Morrison, the actor who plays Jango, is a New Zealander of Maori descent. But that didn't get in the way of some members of an eight-person Detroit News panel assembled to review the film.

"He looked totally Latino," says Martina Guzman, a Detroiter who's managing a State House election campaign.

And his kid," says Wayne State history professor Jose Cuello, referring to the young Boba Fett, "looked even more Latino."

It reminds Cuello a little bit of "those Reagan ads in the 1980 campaign, that suggested if Nicaragua went communist, you'd have wild-eyed Mexicans with guns running across the California border."

A flabbergasted Lucasfilm spokeswoman, Jeanne Cole, says "This is the first we've heard of this. Star Wars," she says, "is a fantasy movie filled with creatures and aliens from all different planets and universes and galaxies. There is no basis for this."

Lucas was in Cannes and could not be reached for comment.

The celebrated mythmaker has been through what some might call the p.c. mill before.

In 1999, a furor erupted over The Phantom Menace's Jar Jar Binks, a floppy-eared alien whom some read as a sort of Stepin Fetchit by way of the West Indies.

"Everyone I've ever spoken to says there's a Rastafarian element to his speech, his walk, and in his 'dread' ears," says copy editor Robert del Valle, who was on The News panel with Guzman and Cuello.

But such allegations were dismissed as "absurd" by Lucas in a Thursday interview published in the Washington Post. "People say, 'He sounds Caribbean.' Well, he doesn't. He's a complete invention. It's a different language. Just because he speaks with that accent doesn't mean it's a racial stereotype."

The interview did not address the clone issue.

A somewhat muted Jar Jar makes another appearance in Clones, but it is the dark-skinned Jango-copies that seem to have caught some audience members' attention this time around.

Still, not everybody's buying it.

Harry Knowles, on-line film reviewer and author of Ain't It Cool: Hollywood's Red-Headed Step-Child Speaks Out (Time Warner), says the whole Jango ethnic premise is "reading racism into something that's not there -- it's just in the minds of the viewers. It's like calling Jar Jar racist when all he is is Bullwinkle."

The Jango dispute surfaced in internet chat rooms devoted to Star Wars days before the movie's release, says panelist Gary Anderson, the artistic director at Detroit's Plowshares Theatre and longtime Star Wars student and critic.

If the planet name "Kamino" caught some Latinos' attention, three Arab-Americans on The News' panel seized on the fact that Jango's son calls him "Baba."

"I frankly think the bounty hunter is Arab," says college counselor Imad Nouri of Royal Oak.

"He's basically a terrorist," explains Nouri, "and 'baba' is Arabic for 'father.' "

Such allegations have a long history in that galaxy far, far away. A number of observers noted that the 1977 original was, at least at the human level, an all-white party -- looking, in Anderson's words, "like the Ku Klux Klan's fantasy of the future."

The only exception was Darth Vader's basso-profundo voice, supplied by African-American actor James Earl Jones.

Which leads to all sorts of ironies, intentional or not: Darth Vader has a black man's voice when he's bad, but in Clones -- before Anakin Skywalker does the Darth-thing and defects to the Dark Side -- he's a white guy, played by Hayden Christensen.

The big question lurking beneath all this ethnic deconstruction: Could any of this possibly be deliberate?

For their part, The News' panelists were divided.

"The plot is so superficial," says Cuello, "I don't think they could possibly have any deliberate intent about manipulating images."

Like almost everybody who commented on Lucas, Anderson doubts there's anything malicious going on.

"If your entire world perspective is based on 1950s TV and films, what do you expect?" he asks. "Garbage in and garbage out."

For her part, Guzman was astonished that, given the Jar Jar flap, Lucas didn't scrutinize everything a little more critically this time around. "He's been criticized before," she says. "So he had a choice."

It's not that she's opposed to Latin-looking baddies per se. She just wishes the occasional swarthy good guy would get as much on-screen time as the villain.

"Jimmy Smits had all of two lines in the whole movie," Guzman says. "And Samuel Jackson had like five. Then there's the bad guy."

For pop-culture professor Robert Thompson at Syracuse University -- who has yet to see Clones -- the issue boils down to whether Lucas really wanted to tweak Anglo fears.

He's inclined to say no, attributing Lucas' occasionally confusing choices to "a certain degree of cluelessness. Look at Jar Jar Binks. The moment that guy comes on the screen, you wonder what in the world they were thinking. This isn't 1957. Didn't anybody say, 'Have you paid attention to what this guy is doing?' "

The sad thing, he says, is that the Star Wars saga is also "about tolerance and dignity. But then you've got this 'camino' thing, which sounds a little creepy, and swarthy people who march in uncountable masses."

Thompson calls the imagery in Star Wars a "great big Rorschach test, not just for the people who watch the movies, but for Lucas himself." With the latter, that leads him to two possibilities.

"One is that this is coming out of the id of the creator without translation -- a West Coast fear of the Latino population in America." (Lucas grew in the 1950s in Modesto, Calif., the agricultural town immortalized in American Graffiti, and one visited annually by thousands of migrant workers.)

The second hypothesis, he notes, is that it's all deliberate -- a way to prompt deep emotional response in audiences by probing "a phobia that's afoot in America. And that's the scarier interpretation."

Or, as some argue, perhaps it's all stuff and nonsense.

Knowles at aintitcool.com keeps emphasizing on the fact that Temeura Morrison, the actor who plays Jango, is Maori.

When asked how audiences are supposed to know that, he says, "How can you tell? You stay for the end credits. Is his name 'Raul Julia?' No."

But even if Jango was meant to be taken as a Latino, others just don't see a problem.

"At least we're in the picture," says Hollywood producer Michael Gonzalez with a laugh.

"I mean, what did we have before -- Lt. Torres on Star Trek? It's just a movie," he says. "It's just fun. And you're going to hit a stereotype one way or another. At least we get some screen time."

In any event, Guzman doubts most Hispanics will notice, if only "because they're so used to seeing images like that of themselves -- little dialogue, always being the bad guy. It's going to take the intellectual community to call Lucas on what he's doing."

Latinos are now the nation's largest minority. But box-office analyst Adam Farasati -- who argues Hollywood rarely takes minority concerns into consideration -- doesn't see any collateral damage to the film's profits.

"The only real issue is that Attack of the Clones is one of most anticipated movies of all time," he says from RealSource's Los Angeles office.

"And beyond that, any type of media attention -- even negative -- really just creates more hype for a film that has hype coming out its ears."

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Hasbro'sBountyHunter
05-19-2002, 01:16 AM
Don't these people realize it's just a movie? What ever happened to just enjoying a film?

SithDroid
05-19-2002, 01:18 AM
No kidding. I mean this is ridiculous. They are upset about the clones looking like they are possibly of Latino decent. Yeah, but look at Jimmy Smits, he is a SENATOR for Gods sake. Is that not enough and he is actually Latino. It is just a movie people. Is Lucas supposedly racist with the aliens as well? Some of the Jedi are also played by people of different ethnicities: Mace Windu, Adi Gallia, Luminara, Eeth Koth, etc.. I get tired of all of this complaining all the time, not just in the SW movies, but in life in general. I love the USA and I find it to be the most accepting country on the entire planet. What other country has such a wide diversity as the US? If you don't like the country you live in then I suggest you move.

Dark Knight
05-19-2002, 01:18 AM
Good Lord, is this gonna be brought up ever time a new movie is released. Lucas just can't win, and it's getting really sickening to have to read this BS everytime. I mean seriously, what is Lucas supposed to do, never hire anything but white actors to do voices or play the bad guys? I mean for cripes sake, the most evil person in the entire saga is a crusty old white Emporer. Take a read of this stuff from the Detroit News. Link to the article online, as well as pictures and contact info: http://www.detnews.com/2002/enterta.../d01-492788.htm

Critics say 'Clones' has racial stereotypes:
By Michael H. Hodges / The Detroit News

George Lucas, sometimes accused of reinforcing racial stereotypes with his movies, has done it again, according to critics.

Latino critics in particular charge his latest Star Wars epic, Episode II: Attack of the Clones, toys with American paranoia about Mexican immigration with its cloned army of swarthy lookalikes who march in lockstep by the tens of thousands, and ultimately end up serving as Darth Vader's white-suited warriors.

Modeled on bounty hunter Jango Fett, the clones, we're told, are genetically modified for docility and obedience. The breeding project, conducted by long-necked aliens who look like refugees from Close Encounters of the Third Kind, takes place on the planet Kamino -- soundalike for the Spanish word "camino," which means "road" or "I walk."

Temuera Morrison, the actor who plays Jango, is a New Zealander of Maori descent. But that didn't get in the way of some members of an eight-person Detroit News panel assembled to review the film.

"He looked totally Latino," says Martina Guzman, a Detroiter who's managing a State House election campaign.

And his kid," says Wayne State history professor Jose Cuello, referring to the young Boba Fett, "looked even more Latino."

It reminds Cuello a little bit of "those Reagan ads in the 1980 campaign, that suggested if Nicaragua went communist, you'd have wild-eyed Mexicans with guns running across the California border."

A flabbergasted Lucasfilm spokeswoman, Jeanne Cole, says "This is the first we've heard of this. Star Wars," she says, "is a fantasy movie filled with creatures and aliens from all different planets and universes and galaxies. There is no basis for this."

Lucas was in Cannes and could not be reached for comment.

The celebrated mythmaker has been through what some might call the p.c. mill before.

In 1999, a furor erupted over The Phantom Menace's Jar Jar Binks, a floppy-eared alien whom some read as a sort of Stepin Fetchit by way of the West Indies.

"Everyone I've ever spoken to says there's a Rastafarian element to his speech, his walk, and in his 'dread' ears," says copy editor Robert del Valle, who was on The News panel with Guzman and Cuello.

But such allegations were dismissed as "absurd" by Lucas in a Thursday interview published in the Washington Post. "People say, 'He sounds Caribbean.' Well, he doesn't. He's a complete invention. It's a different language. Just because he speaks with that accent doesn't mean it's a racial stereotype."

The interview did not address the clone issue.

A somewhat muted Jar Jar makes another appearance in Clones, but it is the dark-skinned Jango-copies that seem to have caught some audience members' attention this time around.

Still, not everybody's buying it.

Harry Knowles, on-line film reviewer and author of Ain't It Cool: Hollywood's Red-Headed Step-Child Speaks Out (Time Warner), says the whole Jango ethnic premise is "reading racism into something that's not there -- it's just in the minds of the viewers. It's like calling Jar Jar racist when all he is is Bullwinkle."

The Jango dispute surfaced in internet chat rooms devoted to Star Wars days before the movie's release, says panelist Gary Anderson, the artistic director at Detroit's Plowshares Theatre and longtime Star Wars student and critic.

If the planet name "Kamino" caught some Latinos' attention, three Arab-Americans on The News' panel seized on the fact that Jango's son calls him "Baba."

"I frankly think the bounty hunter is Arab," says college counselor Imad Nouri of Royal Oak.

"He's basically a terrorist," explains Nouri, "and 'baba' is Arabic for 'father.' "

Such allegations have a long history in that galaxy far, far away. A number of observers noted that the 1977 original was, at least at the human level, an all-white party -- looking, in Anderson's words, "like the Ku Klux Klan's fantasy of the future."

The only exception was Darth Vader's basso-profundo voice, supplied by African-American actor James Earl Jones.

Which leads to all sorts of ironies, intentional or not: Darth Vader has a black man's voice when he's bad, but in Clones -- before Anakin Skywalker does the Darth-thing and defects to the Dark Side -- he's a white guy, played by Hayden Christensen.

The big question lurking beneath all this ethnic deconstruction: Could any of this possibly be deliberate?

For their part, The News' panelists were divided.

"The plot is so superficial," says Cuello, "I don't think they could possibly have any deliberate intent about manipulating images."

Like almost everybody who commented on Lucas, Anderson doubts there's anything malicious going on.

"If your entire world perspective is based on 1950s TV and films, what do you expect?" he asks. "Garbage in and garbage out."

For her part, Guzman was astonished that, given the Jar Jar flap, Lucas didn't scrutinize everything a little more critically this time around. "He's been criticized before," she says. "So he had a choice."

It's not that she's opposed to Latin-looking baddies per se. She just wishes the occasional swarthy good guy would get as much on-screen time as the villain.

"Jimmy Smits had all of two lines in the whole movie," Guzman says. "And Samuel Jackson had like five. Then there's the bad guy."

For pop-culture professor Robert Thompson at Syracuse University -- who has yet to see Clones -- the issue boils down to whether Lucas really wanted to tweak Anglo fears.

He's inclined to say no, attributing Lucas' occasionally confusing choices to "a certain degree of cluelessness. Look at Jar Jar Binks. The moment that guy comes on the screen, you wonder what in the world they were thinking. This isn't 1957. Didn't anybody say, 'Have you paid attention to what this guy is doing?' "

The sad thing, he says, is that the Star Wars saga is also "about tolerance and dignity. But then you've got this 'camino' thing, which sounds a little creepy, and swarthy people who march in uncountable masses."

Thompson calls the imagery in Star Wars a "great big Rorschach test, not just for the people who watch the movies, but for Lucas himself." With the latter, that leads him to two possibilities.

"One is that this is coming out of the id of the creator without translation -- a West Coast fear of the Latino population in America." (Lucas grew in the 1950s in Modesto, Calif., the agricultural town immortalized in American Graffiti, and one visited annually by thousands of migrant workers.)

The second hypothesis, he notes, is that it's all deliberate -- a way to prompt deep emotional response in audiences by probing "a phobia that's afoot in America. And that's the scarier interpretation."

Or, as some argue, perhaps it's all stuff and nonsense.

Knowles at aintitcool.com keeps emphasizing on the fact that Temeura Morrison, the actor who plays Jango, is Maori.

When asked how audiences are supposed to know that, he says, "How can you tell? You stay for the end credits. Is his name 'Raul Julia?' No."

But even if Jango was meant to be taken as a Latino, others just don't see a problem.

"At least we're in the picture," says Hollywood producer Michael Gonzalez with a laugh.

"I mean, what did we have before -- Lt. Torres on Star Trek? It's just a movie," he says. "It's just fun. And you're going to hit a stereotype one way or another. At least we get some screen time."

In any event, Guzman doubts most Hispanics will notice, if only "because they're so used to seeing images like that of themselves -- little dialogue, always being the bad guy. It's going to take the intellectual community to call Lucas on what he's doing."

Latinos are now the nation's largest minority. But box-office analyst Adam Farasati -- who argues Hollywood rarely takes minority concerns into consideration -- doesn't see any collateral damage to the film's profits.

"The only real issue is that Attack of the Clones is one of most anticipated movies of all time," he says from RealSource's Los Angeles office.

"And beyond that, any type of media attention -- even negative -- really just creates more hype for a film that has hype coming out its ears."




What a load BS!!!!!

DarthBrandon
05-19-2002, 02:09 AM
Star Wars is not RACIST, get a grip people who have nothing better to do with their lives than complain about pure bs.

That's my opinion on this crap.

hamsterboy
05-19-2002, 02:21 AM
I think people are reading too much into it. Funny thing is,they say us fans have no life,what about these jerks who nit-pick at everything?

2-1B
05-19-2002, 03:49 AM
The only color that matter$ to George i$ green. ;)

That accusation should not be thrown around like that, especially in this case where the factual inaccuracies are obvious.
What an ignorant thing to say about Morrison, Logan, and Taylor.
They claim Tem Morrison looks Latino. But does his accent sound Latino? Nope.

Jar Jar a few years back - what a slap in the face those accusations were to Ahmed Best. Jeez, the guy comes in to do a silly performance and bring some life to the character, only to have Lucas painted with that brush. As if Ahmed is an idiot who could be duped. Like he said, "Jar Jar is a seven foot orange spacefrog." :D

187-Maul
05-19-2002, 07:14 AM
Just some load of BS ! Just some news/companies trying to draw attention by reporting something about SW

JetsAndHeels
05-19-2002, 08:47 AM
Total Crap. The more I read that article the angrier I got. Star Wars is a fantasy/sci-fi film. George Lucas is in the business of telling stories, and these stories involve many different characters who are different colors, species, races, etc.
To have someone make another accusation is just ridiculous.
Now I am wondering what EP3's racial issue will be. I am sure some loser will find a problem with it and complain. Three words for you people who make these accusations-Get a Life!!

Pendo
05-19-2002, 08:50 AM
Star Wars is nowhere near being racist. The closest Star Wars is going to get to being racist is Palpatine's hatred of aliens, which is a plot point, it's to make him more evil.

It really P***es me off with all this racist b:eek:ll:eek:cks. If anyone's being racist it's the writers of the news report for interpreting it that way.

PENDO!

DeadEye
05-19-2002, 09:53 AM
Pendo...b*ll*cks? What is that? I'm not familiar with British profanity...maybe PM me and let me know. ;)

Kuzu
05-19-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Pendo
Star Wars is nowhere near being racist. The closest Star Wars is going to get to being racist is Palpatine's hatred of aliens, which is a plot point, it's to make him more evil.

It really P***es me off with all this racist b:eek:ll:eek:cks. If anyone's being racist it's the writers of the news report for interpreting it that way.

PENDO!


:mad: I strongly agree. and It isn't Lucas thats being racist it these Doofnuts,how can a moive with blue,pink,green,red, orange,black,wight,even poka dot people be racist.I thinck these people just want to sue and get rich.PITAAAFUL:(

InsaneJediGirl
05-19-2002, 04:29 PM
Do these people have lives?Show me any Starwars film and I can clearly see it isnt racist.Its just a MOVIE.Very pitiful that movies have to be picked apart and described as racist.Whats next,"The Lion King" for only having Lions as rulers?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mylow thehutt
05-19-2002, 04:35 PM
I think they closed down the E-mailes,bet the fans got the best of them,HAHAHAHA dumb fools.:p :p

Dryanta
05-19-2002, 07:31 PM
I think pendo makes a very good point about the racism on the part of the critics.All them seem to see is white.And when they do see something other than white they find fault.Get over it.LFL should now subject them selves to hiring quotas?
Here are some of my bigotted views about all the films to date.In Ep1 a swoop biker swerves into a Ronto and almost injures a innocent jawa.In ep2 Anakin hops on a chopper swoop and then goes and commits mass murder.I as a biker am being descrimnated against.Bikers are being pertrayed as inconsiderate,mindless murders.
Oh here's another.Mos Eisly in a "retched hive of scum and villainy'
It's a truck stop!!HAn and Chewie a smugglers.They're truck drivers!!I am a truck driver and am being descrimnated agianst by this potrayal.
And another,the only two taller than average characters in the OT are Vader and Chewie.A mass murdering villain and "A big furry oof"Well thanks again I'll taller than average and I'm being blah blah blah.
You get the idea.If you choose to be an over sensitive idiot then you can invent things to bother you or sling empty accusations about.I tend to think the PC crowd is spending their lives doing just that.

bigbarada
05-19-2002, 08:51 PM
I think what irritates these critics most is that Lucas isn't even listening to them. They can't stand to be ignored so they just shout louder with ever increasing stupidity. Lucas doesn't need them since he doesn't rely on any studio or skittish board of directors for his money. Thus he does what we all should, ignore them.

So if latinos, arabs, indians, blacks, orientals, etc. are all off limits for movie villians, then that means that we can only have heterosexual, male, white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed bad guys in movies? Um, now who is it exactly that's being racist here?

Dryanta
05-19-2002, 08:55 PM
uhmmm... BigB.you just described me.
;)

bigbarada
05-19-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
uhmmm... BigB.you just described me.
;)

AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! Everybody run! He's gonna get us!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

:D

Dryanta
05-19-2002, 09:24 PM
That is my whole point.:) Do any of us dare say or do anything?
P.C. crap is just ridiculous to me.If you look hard enough and read what you want into it,then everything can be discrimination.

bigbarada
05-19-2002, 09:46 PM
So, let me get this straight, having Temura Morrison play a bad-a** bounty hunter and a model for the perfect soldier in Ep2 is racist. HOWEVER, having Temura play a drunken, wife-beating, deadbeat, screaming maniac in Once Were Warriors isn't?:stupid:

Some examples of how PC thinking has gone too far:

On some college campuses, laughing out loud is either banned or strongly discouraged as someone walking by can think he/she/it is being laughed at and take offense.

In the military, a husband and wife are not allowed to talk affectionately to each other in public because someone might eavesdrop and be offended.

Lions, tigers and just about any predator are now considered "specieist" since they kill other animals for food, thus implying that they have more right to live than their prey.

:stupid:

Speaking for America, are we now to rewrite our consitution to state that we have the freedom of speech, as long as we don't offend anyone?

I think someone forgot to tell those moronic critics that reality is not PC.

master jedi
05-19-2002, 10:06 PM
I'm sick and tired of people saying star wars is a racist thing. Anything could be regarded as being racist.

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 12:41 AM
This thread and website are number-ist. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s hogging all the fun. As an advocate of the digits 2 thru 9, I find this entire binary digital system archaic and degradatory...



;)

Arrogant Arse
05-20-2002, 09:51 AM
If I were British, I'd be mad as hell that all the main Imperial Officers, Piett, Veers etc. in the OT are British. That portrays the Brits as evil imperialistic conquerors.

Okay, so "the sun never set on the British Empire" but they wern't led by the Devil.

(Insert Prince Charles joke here)

Starfig873
05-20-2002, 10:00 AM
The good thing is, we all know this isn't true. And so I say sit back and laugh your butts off! :D
The second I started to read that article I began to laugh, how can one not? It's so full of crap. :)

I'm happy these people are finding some "importance" in their lives by ripping through a movie for racism. Silly, sill, silly. :)

Eternal Padawan
05-20-2002, 11:14 AM
I especially enjoy how their own ignorance is the basis for their argument. Their preconcieved stereotypes of how people look is what makes it racist to them.

"Temeura and Daniel are New Zealanders of Maori descent."

"Well, I don't know nothin' 'bout no "moorie" but they LOOK Messican...and that's racist in my book."


Chumps.

BanthaPoodoo
05-20-2002, 11:36 AM
I think it's funny how the Arab community is saying that Boba (as in bow-buh) is an arab terrorist.......... LOL :)

Hello, it's pronouced Bow-buh not ba-ba as in Ali Baba.........

These folks need to get a life & a grip on the situation. Always trying to start something!!!!!!

Too funny.........

bigbarada
05-20-2002, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Arrogant Arse
If I were British, I'd be mad as hell that all the main Imperial Officers, Piett, Veers etc. in the OT are British. That portrays the Brits as evil imperialistic conquerors.



But the British are evil! EVERYBODY knows that!:p

And liquor was invented to keep the Irish from conquering the world (the same could be said about American Indians).;)

Alright, just kidding and for the record only people of the races mentioned above are allowed to be offended by those remarks.

In any case, I'm part English and Irish and Cherokee, along with many other races (Swedish, French, Russian, etc); but primarily Jewish. Wanna hear some good Jewish jokes? So would I? You got any?:D

Even though the opposite is true with me, people who live in the US are allowed to be racist, bigoted bastards. It's a fundamental part of our Constitution to not squash anyone's opinion no matter how backwards it might be.

Mandalorian Candidat
05-20-2002, 12:21 PM
Did I just miss something here? Is it a slow news week or something? Did all the problems in the Middle East just go away? Did AIDS, cancer, cystic fibrosis, and e. coli infestation in Jack in the Box hamburgers just get taken care of?

Holy freaking crap! What a bunch of whiners. Well, I guess it's their right to make ludicrous accusations just as much as it's Lucas' right to put Jar Jar in the movie. I think banding one's opinions around like this without any valid proof to back it up just makes a mockery of the 1st Ammendment.

pthfnder89
05-20-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by BanthaPoodoo
I think it's funny how the Arab community is saying that Boba (as in bow-buh) is an arab terrorist.......... LOL :)

Hello, it's pronouced Bow-buh not ba-ba as in Ali Baba.........

These folks need to get a life & a grip on the situation. Always trying to start something!!!!!!

Too funny.........

THANK YOU BanthaPoodoo! I think that ticked me off more than anything because it's even more ridiculous than claiming Temurra Morrison is Mexican just because he looks vaguely Mexican.

This also shows how little attention these "film critics" paid to the movie. They said that Daniel Logan was the one who called Jango "baba". Obviously he never said that; they are totally mistaking where Jango calls Logan by his name, which we know is obviously is Boba.

Gotta love how they have to invent "facts" in order for the movie to fit their own racist theories. :rolleyes:

mylow thehutt
05-20-2002, 06:45 PM
just got back from that web site,and i sent my own comments to them.HEHEHE:evil:

JediDan
05-20-2002, 07:04 PM
Why don't they bicker about us "honkeys.";) The Emporer is white, Vader is white, Tarkin, Dooku, all white. Looks to me that all the real mean ugly people are all whites. If anybody is to complain it should be the white folk. Heck even the stormtroopers outfits are white. So now it's kinda sounds like Lucas thinks whites are bad people. LOL, take that you stupid critics. :P

vulcantouch
05-20-2002, 07:17 PM
not really; why should it bother me if someone raises issues which are far from, uh, black & white? ;) if it's a waste of time, it's theirs to waste, no one's forcing the restuvus to lissen. but if said foul-criers are onto somethin (as they kinda are re gungans), what are we so ascared of? no one with a clue would seriously accuse lucas of being racist, just of being embarrassingly out-of-touch from the culture at large. surrounding yerself w/yesmen on yer isolated, thousands-acre ranch'll do that to ya :p
anyway, as a mongrel whose ingredients are similar to bb's, i think the implication that the fetts are mexican is supercool :cool:
as for mexiclones? with That armor on, they look more like Attack of the Fightin Whites (http://www.fightingwhites.org/) to me :D
btw, everyone knows that badass low-rider sebulba was a VaTo, ese :evil:
vt
now playing: wall of voodoo, "mexican radio"

SWAFMAN
05-20-2002, 07:35 PM
...sounds like Lucas is pretty sensitive to this type of criticism:

Mr. Lucas expected a one-hour love letter and a wet kiss in return for the access CNN was allowed (http://www.emonline.com/insider/052002insider.html)

JediTricks
05-20-2002, 09:54 PM
"Only (VT) could be so bold!" as to bring up that gungan racism thing here. :D

This thread is movin' to the Ep 2 section.

jawaboy
05-20-2002, 10:36 PM
They were talking about this on O'Reilly Factor tonight. The critic didn't have much of a case at all. He sounded like an idiot. He said Jango Fett "resembled a person from a third-world country," which to me sounds like a racist remark! And to think, the bad person in the film was a white guy, not an hispanic! None of the hispanics interviewed even saw the comparison and thought it was ridiculous.

Anyways, you'll be happy to know that this loser got his butt kicked by O'Reilly and looked like a MinorMoff Idiot. Nobody is buying this PC garbage.

RooJay
05-20-2002, 11:10 PM
I for one AM latino, and while I don't look like the stereotypical version of a latino I am HIGHLY offended that anyone (be they white, black, asian or latino themselves) would infer that latinos are indistinguishable from the maori people just because of similarities in skin color or features. Any latino that makes inferrences such as this should be ashamed of himself. Accusations such as this only have any validity at all if Lucas' were in fact a racist. I do not, for even a second, believe he is! Anyone who is able to draw similarities between racial stereotypes and ANY characters in Star Wars is reading WAY too much into it, and is simply drawing conclusions based on their own predjudices. I have watched TPM MANY times and have never seen anything in Jar Jar's look, expressions, mannerisms, speech patterns, or anything else that remind me of any African-American that I know, or even any black stereotypes for that matter! He's intended to represent an alien creature and nothing more.
I am familiar with the spanish word "camino", as I am familiar with it's similarity in sound to the name of the planet "Kamino". I do not, however, see any other similarities beyond that. Also, if I'm not mistaken the natives of the planet Kamino seem rather gentle and noble, and are obviously quite advanced in terms of technology and culture. Why do none of these people draw associations with those concepts? Why have none of these people pointed out how the Empire, the main villains in the original trilogy, seems to be made up completely of older, WHITE men? Even Palpatine himself, the ULTIMATE villain throughout the Saga and the mastermind controlling all of the events in the story, is an older, well-to-do WHITE man? Within the context of the story, Palpatine/ Sidious is the Devil himself! The very epitome of evil! Are Lucas' detractors implying that he hates EVERY ethnicity? Why aren't they saying such?
I disturbs me to no end how accusations like this can occur in today's world when there is so much REAL injustice going on that people seem to have no trouble turning a blind eye to.

Obi-Don
05-21-2002, 01:23 AM
If people would just watch the movie. You would see that there is no racism any where in the movie. My GOD there are people of all colors and aliens of all kinds as Jedis and such. Come on people get a life,will you.

JEDIpartner
05-21-2002, 09:08 AM
Hey! Let's get a bunch of dark haired, dark eyed caucasians to get really deep tans and stick them in a movie as bad guys! I'll bet these same clowns would say that they are Mexicans or Arabs! Cool! Hey! Their last names are O'Toole, Hopkins and Whaples! Did you notice???? No! Of course not! You've got your own racist agenda and you can't see past it because you think everyone is like you!

This is exactly what the problem is. People are projecting their own racist tendencies on others. Yeah... tell me that people who aren't white don't have racist thoughts against other ethnic groups.

Get Real.

JEDIpartner
05-21-2002, 12:43 PM
...okay- that and we ALL know that people from Detroit have issues! ;)

El Chuxter
05-21-2002, 03:28 PM
Y'know, it actually offends me that critics would be so racist as to impose their own little agendas on this movie. It shouldn't, I know--VT's right about it being their time to waste--but, dammit, this level of ignorance really annoys me!

And no one has complained yet about the nasty Geonosians talking like characters out of The Gods Must Be Crazy. Oh, crap--I think I just gave 'em an idea!

billfremore
05-21-2002, 03:43 PM
This is just another fine example of how wonderfully sensitive our whole world has become.

I'd better be careful, I may offend someone by saying that.

Pendo
05-21-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by billfremore
This is just another fine example of how wonderfully sensitive our whole world has become.

I'd better be careful, I may offend someone by saying that.

That's REALLY offended me billfremore!!!!!



Only messin :D.

PENDO!

mark2d2
05-21-2002, 03:50 PM
Actually, it's not that the world is overly sensative --- it's just that everybody has an agenda to push. This is especially true out here in California. Where we are constantly bombarded by ridiculous stuff like this . . . .

JEDIpartner
05-21-2002, 03:54 PM
Oooh... I'll be in San Diego in a couple weeks. I'd better have my mouth sewn shut. ;)

RooJay
05-21-2002, 05:52 PM
These people made a point to bring up the clones in their rantings, but none of them points out that when we see the clones fighting, killing, and "marching in lockstep" they are ALL WHITE. What does that say about Lucas? Maybe he really hates white people? Does he wish he was pseudo-hispanic under his white skin? Does he wish he was like all other white people who are really KINDA mexican inside? What the...?!!

Lowly Bantha Cleaner
05-22-2002, 12:26 AM
Just take these accusations with a grain of salt. You can a hold a picture of a red ball up in there and tell the people you are holding a ball that is red and while 99.9% of the people agree with you, there are always an unwavering few who are convinced that it isn't. You can argue with them until your face turns blue, yet they may never change their feeling. Just accept the fact that there will always be a few naysayers no matter what. Don't let them stir you and don't let them steer or change your convictions.

DarthSetnom
05-22-2002, 12:49 AM
OK... I happen to LIVE in Mexico... being born in this country and seeing how the number of SW fans has increased in the recent years, I find it hard to accept the statements made by some people...

See more often than not, these "latino" (that word just shouldn't exist... it's not even right to call us that) organisations and groups who complain about racism in movies and TV series don't even relate to us who live in the Hispanic countries. They often treat us worse than white folks whenever we meet...

This SW thing brings back to my mind the "Speedy Gonzales" case when they wanted it to be banned from TV... they just didn't care that people here in Mexico like the damn mouse even though some of us think he's a bit annoying.

These movies are not about social comment, they're only meant to entertain people and sell toys and merchandise. And supposed to tell a story

Lman316
05-22-2002, 12:54 PM
No! I'm outraged. Star Wars has gone too far this time. Lucas is totally being racist towards..............astromech droids. Did you see all the work R2 was doing for Anakin and Padme? Huh, did ya? And they would just walk farther and farther ahead of him, letting him do all this work. And then, on Tatooine, when he shows up to tell them they have a message, they're appalled at the sight of him. This and not to mention all the work that R4 was doing for Obi-Wan. Yet the "patient" Jedi Master seemed a bit testy when he wasn't working fast enough! :mad:


Um...okay, now I might actually have more people mad at me, but I thought it was funny :D.
Anyway, I was really irritated to read that report and I too am tired of this. Yeah, I'm really sure that Lucas is going to waste all the money to produce a movie just to "hide" political and social messages throughout it. It's just a movie - it's there to tell a story (a dang good story, IMO). I just won't listen to slandering like that anymore. Almost anything can be considered racist - it all depends on how hard you're looking for it.
I remember once I was playing a game called No Mercy (it's a wrestling game of the former WWF). Anyway, there is an option to purchase merchandise for your "Creat-A-Wrestler" feature. You can buy shirts and moves and entrance apparel. Well, at the bottom of the screen for that, it says: "Hello,Sir. How Can I Help You Today?". Well, I jokingly told my brother that someone was going to get sued. "Why," he asked. "Well, I'm sure that some girls might be playing this game too."
It's not like that was intentional, and I'm sure that they weren't trying to be sexist. But probably someplace, someone complained about it.
I guess what it comes down to is this: If you don't like it, don't watch it (or play it...or read it....or look at it).

JediTricks
05-22-2002, 07:08 PM
Actually, Lucas has always had a little social commentary in SW on purpose, he just played it cool when he did it in ANH. The droids as 3rd-class slaves was always meant to be an issue - everybody but Luke treats the droids as tools rather than equals and 3PO spouts about this from time to time.

In Ep 1, the whole thing about the Gungans and Naboo not getting along was social commentary, it was so overt that I'm not even sure you could call it "thinly veiled".

Darth Sinister
05-23-2002, 02:00 AM
A bunch of guys dressed in white who eventually enslave the galaxy....Lucas should have known better. The next time I go to see AOTC and it gets the part at the end when they are blasting off I'm going to stand up and say "Don't trust whitey".

The PC world is pathetic......I'm waiting on the animal rights activists to show up protesting the treatment of Acklays.

I guess I need to be more sensitive......I'll work on it.

vulcantouch
05-23-2002, 02:36 PM
much as i'd like to take it, you give me too much credit; it doesn't take boldness to bring up the gungan issue, merely a cursory knowledge of film history & the world's cultures. anyone familiar with butterfly mcqueen (Gone W/the Wind), stepin fetchit and other shuckin & shufflin minstrel acts (or even spike lee's Bamboozled), Zulu (who also sported spears, long shields & featherdress), and caribbean and west indies patois and mannerisms, is only kidding themselves if they refuse to acknowledge what directly inspired gungan stylizations & jarjar antics. lucas clearly drew from these sources just as clearly as AOTC's droid rickshaw (accompanied by john williams' explicit chinoiserie) was an asian-derived transport, dexter's place is derived from mid-20th-century american prefab aluminum diners, coruscant has Metropolis roots etc.
the question is, was the cultural pillaging re gungans a clueless, tasteless and offensive resurrection and mixing of stereotypes, be they outdated or valid? personally i'm more intrigued by lucas' experiment (it says a lot about his insular, middlebrow outlook that the raising of questions re gungans took him by surprise) than offended, but i can still acknowledge that there's plenty of gray in this area. so those who instantly denounce all the foul-criers strike me as either overly defensive, lacking a sense of history or a bit of both.
i agree some of the foul-criers are too touchy about this. but some of you automatic-refuters are just as touchy. y'all remind me of trekkies who have some inexplicable vested interest in thinking themselves more "evolved" than, say, wrestling fans :rolleyes: lighten up, knee-jerks on both sides; we're in a period of transition re race perceptions, so stay loose, frosty & adaptive or you'll end up lookin like a photonegative of the shrill demagogues on the other side you claim to oppose :p
vt

Croaker
05-23-2002, 02:54 PM
A few comments about that article

As someoen else pointed out if that critic can't notice the difference between A Maori and latino - then in effect they are saying that all dark skinned people look the same!

What they failed to notice:
Boba Fett is probably the most popular character in the SW universe. Why complain when he turns out not to be white?

It has been pointed out to me that the hat that Watto wears in Ep II makes him look more jewish. Funny that they did this because they were accused of such racism before. (Me, i thought he sounded Italian in TPM, but hey...)

The biggest discovery of Ep II - if the clones are the same ones that become the stormtroopers (as we assume) then it quite a shock to find that the Stormtroopers are not white! That seemed to be one of the strong anti-racism commentaries of the OT. that the Stormtroopers and empire (Nazis) were the bad guys.

So, I do believe that this specific article which started this thread is way off base but I do believe that TPM was a pretty badly racist movie.
I remember leaving the theatre thinking "oh my god, did he do that on purpose. I hope it's only because he's so isolated he has no clue of the outside world and noone had the guts to tell him what he had done."

RooJay
05-23-2002, 10:12 PM
Regardless of Lucas' inspirations for the Gungan race, and I am not so blind (nor am I too stupid) as to not have seen and understood those inspirations (and I tend to resent the notion), Jar Jar is, nor can it be said that he appears to be, representative of his race as a whole. Yes, their culture seems to have been inspired in some ways by certain carribean cultures. Their physical characteristics obviously were not. The Gungan race (excluding Jar Jar)seemed to me to be every bit as noble and cultured as the affore mentioned Kaminoans. The Gungan race in general seemed to me to be shown in a rather positive light. Jar Jar was intended to be a comical character, not as a caricature of any terrestrial race. Anyone who feels otherwise is obviously reading much more into the character than they should admit to. I'd also like to ask why anyone thinks that if Lucas truly were a racist he would so blatantly display any perceived biases on screen for everyone to see and scrutinize?

Deoxyribonucleic
05-23-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Good Lord, is this gonna be brought up ever time a new movie is released. Lucas just can't win, and it's getting really sickening to have to read this BS everytime. I mean seriously, what is Lucas supposed to do, never hire anything but white actors to do voices or play the bad guys? I mean for cripes sake, the most evil person in the entire saga is a crusty old white Emporer. Take a read of this stuff from the Detroit News. Link to the article online, as well as pictures and contact info: http://www.detnews.com/2002/entertainment/0205/18/d01-492788.htm



I suggest everyone follow this link because there is a section for replies to the Detroit Newspanel about this ridiculous story. I sent a reply and the more of us who do it, the more those narrow-minded fools will realize they stuck their BIG feet and their BIG mouths that they can't seem to keep SHUT long enough to enjoy a good movie when one stares at them in their ignorant faces!!!

Darth Nihilus
05-24-2002, 02:42 PM
With regards to TPM, I don't believe that Lucas was being racist so much as he was guilty of stereotyping. It was also heavily evident in Episode 2.

However, these comments with regards to AotC is bloody ridiculous. If these Lobbyists view a character based only on the colour of their skin, then it is they who are guilty of racism. They completely ignore the character's accent, the actor's background. They classified him according to his outward appearance and that is racist.

RooJay
05-24-2002, 03:04 PM
Stereotyping is racism. What stereotyping did you see in Attack of the Clones?

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by vulcantouch
Re: jt: "'Only (VT) could be so bold!' as to bring up that gungan racism thing"

much as i'd like to take it, you give me too much credit; it doesn't take boldness to bring up the gungan issue, merely a cursory knowledge of film history & the world's cultures.I disagree, some may recognize those same issues, but few will bring it up here on these forums anymore - there often returns a HUGE backlash response from those who either don't know the stereotypes that you referenced or don't see them in Jar Jar and they can be quite angrily vocal in opposition. I think you are probably the only forumite who would bring it back up anymore. Look at RooJay's post #53 here (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=92144#post92144), he's not even a tenth as up-in-arms as other posters have been on this issue in the past, yet a lot of posters no longer have the desire or fortitude to face that sort of thing from a dozen different sides anymore.

2-1B
05-25-2002, 04:23 AM
Hey guys, 3 years ago when the "Jar Jar thing" came up, I tried following the issue pretty closely. I certainly didn't have a problem with people raising the issue with Lucas, but it did kinda bother me that Ahmed Best was neglected for the most part. The fact that he denied those charges were often too easily dismissed by some whose agenda it seemed was to show Lucas as completely insensitive. I hadn't thought about the issue for some time, until a few weeks ago while reading an article in Entertainment Weekly #654 on the upcoming AOTC release. I'd like to quote it here, and if you have comments I would appreciate them. :)


And as for the much-loathed Jar Jar, both Lucas and Best dismiss the character's critics as either Internet grouches or cynics who can't stomach the cutesy humor. Best, who is African-American, was especially bugged by the racism charge leveled against Jar Jar, whose antics had some screaming Stepin Fetchit. "There were absolutely no intentions of the character being perceived that way", says Best, adding that the inspirations were Buster Keaton and Jerry Lewis. "People ask me, 'Did you know it was going to be this way? Why didn't you stop it?' I didn't stop it because there was nothing to stop." Regardless, Jar Jar has only a few brief scenes in Attack of the Clones. But his diminishment, says Lucas, was not influenced by audiences.

Personally, I do think Lucas is ultimately responsible for what he shows in the films, but what would you say to Best? Is he to blame for being "ignorant" of how the character would be perceived? Or even worse, are we to accuse him of "ripping off" those stereotypes?

I'm not afraid to discuss these things, I missed out on the debates JT mentioned but if any of you have comments I would be eager to hear them. :)

Darth Nihilus
05-25-2002, 10:31 AM
Stereotyping isn't necessarily racism only if you choose to view it that way. Dexter was a stereotype of the greasy diner chef, his waitresses were portrayed like the rollerblading drive-through waitresses of 60's movies. That's what I mean, these characters aren't designed to proffer a subtext on their kind in general so much as they are rehashed portrayals of what's been seen in many previous movies. That's the difference between stereotyping and racism.

RooJay
05-25-2002, 04:38 PM
JediTricks, I'm going to try really hard not to see your last post, which sites mine as an example to support your views on Jar Jar, as an insult. It sounds a bit to much like an insinuation that I am not intelligent enough to recognize the issues. My views on the issue are every bit as valid and thought out as anyone else's.

RooJay
05-25-2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Darth Nihilus
Stereotyping isn't necessarily racism only if you choose to view it that way. Dexter was a stereotype of the greasy diner chef, his waitresses were portrayed like the rollerblading drive-through waitresses of 60's movies. That's what I mean, these characters aren't designed to proffer a subtext on their kind in general so much as they are rehashed portrayals of what's been seen in many previous movies. That's the difference between stereotyping and racism.
We are referring to RACIAL stereotypes like those Jar Jar, Watto, and now the Clones are being accused of representing. They are indeed racist.

2-1B
05-25-2002, 11:28 PM
2 examples of problems I have with the broad brush of racial stereotypes:

Watto - Is he a Jewish stereotype or an Italian stereotype? Or both? (I've heard him described as both, but never by the same accusers)

Jar Jar - Is he a Black stereotype or a gay stereotype? Or both? (I've heard him described as both, but never by the same accusers)

RooJay
05-26-2002, 04:54 AM
Or are they neither, but merely characters meant to represent only themselves and their particular standing within the confines of Lucas' galaxy?

therock0603
05-26-2002, 02:36 PM
Stupid fools. I'm not saying this to insult all people of a race, just the certain ones that scream about stuff like this....these people are just lazy people who use their status as a minority to ***** and complain. All their crying and screaming about racism in such bs situations just makes some people hate them. They bring it on themselves.

vulcantouch
05-26-2002, 03:03 PM
. . .cuz from the failure of your response to get specific it's obvious you didn't even bother to Read, let alone consider, my prev post on this thred :rolleyes:
i spose i can understand; it's more exhiliarating to whip oneself into an ignorant, righteous lather & charge in half-cocked, rather than acknowledge an issue's complexity and proceed with the nuance that's called for, isn't it?
either way, i'd suggest gettin yer kicks some other way; a pov that hasn't done its homework doesn't deserve to be respected. thus, i Don't respect it :p

jt: "a lot of posters no longer have the desire or fortitude to face that sort of thing from a dozen different sides anymore"
-i see what you mean ;) luckily, vt has the merciless battle-zest of a droideka, the dispassionate surgicality of ig88 and the stubborn endurance of bantha stink, so Bring The Dogpile On, i prefer a good fight to all the *****footin around :D ;)
vt

therock0603
05-26-2002, 03:38 PM
Uh, vulcantouch, I wasn't commenting on you. The world goes around the sun, not you. I was making a comment of the stupidity of the people who get worked up about such things. "funny you should mention lazy" my butt, I read the entire article which started this thread. It's bs. And there is no "complexity" to the matter of crying and complaining about bullcrap racial stereotypes such as these. It's bs, that's all there is to it. If one sits around and complains about things that are obviously not racist or stereotypical, then they are stupid idiots who have nothing better to do. It's an overstatement and an undeserved compliment to say that the workings of the minds that think this crap up are "complex." Oh my God....Count Dooku is evil and he's white. How dare they insult my race. Woah, hold on a second, his lightsaber is red and that happens to be one of my favorite colors! They've gone too far now. lol...just think about it, it's BS!!!

vulcantouch
05-26-2002, 03:49 PM
-trying to put words in my mouth And evade the issue? :rolleyes: i didn't Say you were "commenting on me"; what i said was that You Haven't Done Your Homework :zzz:

"I read the entire article which started this thread"
-and, just as i suspected, None of the commentary it has sparked. thanks for verifying :happy:
vt

therock0603
05-26-2002, 03:57 PM
Uh....hmmmm.....you were telling me that I obviously failed to consider your response. I wasn't considering it cause I didn't read it. My comments are based on the stupid people who spur such articles into existence. It's a load of crap. The reason he named the planet Kamino was because of his extreme interest in cars. Not because it's similar to the Spanish word "camino" meaning "I walk." Oh, for goodness sake....I used the English word "a" in this post about stupid people crying "Wolf!!!" That word is quite similar to the Spanish word "a" meaning "to." Geez, I must be making a racial stereotype. These people need to pull their heads out of their butts and complain about more important matters like having too many pickles on their hamburger or something like that. A matter such as that definitely deserves much more attention than this.

jjreason
05-26-2002, 04:06 PM
People who are looking for racism, sexism or any other "ism" can misinterpret anything they put their minds to. By entertaining these arguments (publishing them in major newspapers or putting them on tv) we only breed more of them. I personally think these people are taking the movies the wrong way, but neither I nor anyone else can change their perceptions. Only they see the movie the way they do. We have to tolerate it and try to explain our points of view to clear up their misconceptionsbut we may not be able to, no matter how much we try. It's wrong to cast blame and try to "make" people see things differently, it only paints us (the fans) with the wrong brush. Sometimes people need to agree to disagree and get on with their lives. They can go watch whatever movies they want, and leave Star Wars to us.

vulcantouch
05-26-2002, 04:07 PM
. . . then why did you even bother to VenT about it in the first place? i'll tell you why: Cuz You Enjoy Venting Mindlessly. so if You get to vent mindlessly, why should you begrudge the kamino-jango foul-criers the same mindless enjoyment? :crazed:
had you bothered to read our discussion, you'd know i agree w/you re the kamino-jango issue. the gungan issue is another matter, cuz unlike Some people, i take these issues on a case-by-case basis instead of making sweeping, one-size-fits-all, Lazy VerdicTs such as "this entire issue is bs" :p

"I didn't read it"
-thanks again, but no need to belabor the obvious ;)
vt

therock0603
05-26-2002, 04:55 PM
Yes, exactly vulcantouch. I was wanting you to ask me why I even bothered to vent about it. Because their side of the issue doesn't deserve attention. It shouldn't be publicized. It shouldn't have a voice in our government. The only way to fight it is to speak out against it and stop handing them our rights on a silver platter. All these people crying about unequal rights have more than we do. They just keep gradually taking away the rights of whites. We should all be equal. You're also sitting there at your computer discussing this in your bombastic language, trying to make everyone feel inferior to you. And another thing that really makes me mad about Star Wars. Why isn't planet Earth included? Why must he discriminate against the species of our planet? Oh....wait, I know. Because it's filled with so many people complaining about things that are manufactured by their own minds. At least the people of Naboo had a legit complaint....their planet was invaded.

therock0603
05-26-2002, 05:05 PM
Also, I must add this. The reason these stupid stereotypical cries of "wolf!" shouldn't be published is because it further divides the people. People like this are full of lies. They claim to fight for equal rights, but they already have them. What they really want is supremacy, and no race deserves that.

therock0603
05-26-2002, 05:09 PM
And, vulcantouch, if you're so concerned with the issue at hand, why not lay off the personal assaults on me and get back to the issue. This is a debate, not a death match.

JediTricks
05-26-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
I'm not afraid to discuss these things, I missed out on the debates JT mentioned but if any of you have comments I would be eager to hear them. :) I have saved some of my older comments from when the Jar Jar issue first came up, here are some:
---
Looking for a perfect example of the "Jar Jar" stereotype character in an old Hollywood film? Go watch the 1941 Humphrey Bogart classic "High Sierra" and watch when Bogie gets to the secluded mountain camp. The stereotype character in question is "Algernon", the camp porter played by character actor Willie Best who was in over 100 films playing another role in "the shuffling, illiterate, superstitious porter, stableboy, chauffeur and the like (which) served only to bolster Hollywood's then-unchallenged stereotype of the black male as somehow sub-human." (Source: IMDB)"

When I read Jar Jar's dialogue on TFN a few years ago, just read the words they had snuck out, I knew what I was reading because I had seen it before in films like High Sierra and countless others, and was mortified that this {racial} stereotype characterization which I had thought and hoped we as a society had finally put behind us had come rushing back, only this time hidden behind an alien mask.

I'm gonna close with George Lucas's first words of dialogue for Jar Jar that were edited out of the film along with the whole "clam eating" scene, the dialogue can be found being parodied in the Mel Brook's film "Blazing Saddles" (1974):
JAR JAR: Hey, hep me! Hep me!!!
---


Originally posted by RooJay
JediTricks, I'm going to try really hard not to see your last post, which sites mine as an example to support your views on Jar Jar, as an insult. It sounds a bit to much like an insinuation that I am not intelligent enough to recognize the issues. My views on the issue are every bit as valid and thought out as anyone else's. I said you weren't 1/10th as "up-in-arms" about the issue as many forumites whose posts can fall under the heading of "quite angrily vocal in opposition" to this topic, how is that an insult? Because you wanted to take it that way? I don't know why you saw it as you did, but the words are CLEAR so I think you need to re-read - unedited - what I typed (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=92932#post92932).


Hey "therock0603", please try to keep your posts down to 1 or at most 2 in a row, and 2 is reserved for LONG posts that are to 2 different people or something, not just some additional thought that pops into your head 3 minutes later - that's what the "edit" button is for.

therock0603
05-26-2002, 07:56 PM
It's not like Lucas said "Hey, drag your feet so we can be racially discriminating." Ahmed Best did it all on his own and Lucas liked it and just offered a few suggestions. You'd know this if you've watched the making of Episode I documentary on the dvd. I'm tired of people with nothing better to do than to accuse a movie like this of being racially stereotyping. And sorry my messages didn't fit into your standards. I'll go stone myself now.

JediTricks
05-26-2002, 08:39 PM
You know, as moderator, I could have simply deleted your multiple posts as "post-padding", but I thought I'd give you an informal warning rather than delete your posts or threaten you with suspension. I mean technically, that "thumb up your..." comment you just made should get you an automatic administrative warning, but I don't want to have to go down that avenue.

As for the DVD, I don't have it, I only have to go on what Lucas said in articles and wrote in the script before he hired Ahmed Best to come in and do only the motion-capture/rehearsal work for Jar Jar. (Best was brought on to do Jar Jar's voice only after Lucas & co heard him doing a version during rehearsal)

vulcantouch
05-26-2002, 10:56 PM
it's a Total nod to bill cosby's "my-bee fay-beece" dental novocaine gag ;)

"This is a debate, not a death match"
-curious how quickly an intellectual thug cries uncle when given a taste of his own medicine :rolleyes: i'm just following yer lead; and let's face it, with your choices of word and phrasing ("Stupid fools", "lazy people", "***** and complain", "crying and screaming" etc), your intent to pound opposing views into submission is clear. so why cry foul when the contest doesn't go your way?

"lay off the personal assaults on me"
-oh Please: if i Were assaulting you personally you wouldn't be able to type a response :evil: my "assaults" (more accurately, my counterassaults) are only as "personal" as you feel the need to take them.

"You're also sitting there at your computer discussing this in your bombastic language, trying to make everyone feel inferior"
-yeah, it's like you have a Twin, isn't it? :D better make room, cuz you ain't alone on this playground no more :p

"it further divides the people"
-division and unity are neither good nor bad; it depends on the context. there is a time & place for both.

"their side of the issue doesn't deserve attention. It shouldn't be publicized"
-ironic then, that you fall so easily into the trap of giving their claims more attention than they'd ever get unopposed :rolleyes: only when there's a shred of weight should a claim be acknowledged & dealt with. otherwise, being ignored is all it deserves.

"these stupid stereotypical cries of 'wolf!' shouldn't be published"
-are you now advocating suppression of certain povs? if so, it would seem Someone here needs a reminder of the american value of Tolerance-
vt

therock0603
05-26-2002, 11:53 PM
Ok, back to what I was saying earlier. I never personally assaulted you. I was following YOUR lead because you're the one who keeps quoting my messages and making comments on them. You're not even discussing the idea at hand. And of course I'm gonna assault the views of the people crying about stereotypes because they have nothing better to do. Do you see me accusing Toy Story of racial stereotypes? It's stupid. And yes, I am saying that certain povs should be suppressed. If it's a legitimate complaint such as a person not giving someone a job and they know for a fact that it is because of their race etc. then that's fine. But stretching things out of proportion like this is ridiculous. Any person in their right mind would think it's stupid. Lucas named the planet Kamino after the car, not to make fun of Mexicans. The guy who played Jango Fett is not a Hispanic and neither are the clones. If anything, they should be happy that someone that looked Hispanic was used as the base for a clone. It should be an honor to them that someone would want to replicate someone that looked (note: only looked) Hispanic. I mean, come one, they're going to complain no matter what you do. If all the clones had been white, then they'd say that Lucas was being racist by portraying all the good guys as a bunch of whites and not including minorities in the group. It's ridiculous. Tolerating this stuff does not make the nation balanced. It's like tolerating suicide bombers running at the nation's capital. All we're doing by tolerating them is letting our society crumble and fall to their knees. Everyone should stop complaning about racial rights and stop crying for supremacy, while claiming to only be asking for equality, which they have far surpassed.

2-1B
05-27-2002, 01:17 PM
VT, I also thought of the Cos and his novocaine bit from "Himself". I agree that these things should be looked at case by case, for example I immediately discarded the Jango/Clones issue. But there seems to be more to the JarJar issue, unintentional or otherwise . . . although I do not buy into the criticism of him as a gay stereotype.

JT, thanks for those thoughts, I'm going to the video store today and will seek out "High Sierra" to have a look for myself.
I'm certainly aware that those old racial stereotypes exist in movies, I'm just not sure how much of it comes out in Ahmed's performance. Good point about George having wirtten the stuff before he brought in Best, I guess JJB isn't as much a creation of Best's as I would like to think. :(

I'll be back later . . .
:)

therock0603
05-27-2002, 02:15 PM
Has it occurred to any of you that maybe he is emulating these old movies such as High Sierra, but because he likes them? Just like that freakin Kamino issue...he named it after the car, not the Spanish word. He could have done this stuff with Jar Jar because he likes the old movies, not to stereotype a race.

Croaker
05-27-2002, 03:35 PM
Hmm... I like those old movies where blacks are only shown as dumb sidekicks and slaves...I'd better do that in my movie...

I don't think that argument holds much water therock0603

therock0603
05-27-2002, 03:42 PM
Uh...yeah it can, Croaker. He could've grown up watching those kinds of movies. If so, then they are probably a comfort to him and provide fond memories. I liked the Huck Finn movie we watched in my English class where the slave was portrayed as uneducated and stupid. I liked that character, not because I thought it to be true but because he was a good, funny character. I'm not racist though. If he grew up watching these movies as an innocent child, then they are innocent to him. He's not like "oh yeah....I remember those movies where the black man was a total jacka**....gosh, let me portray my character like that to offend everyone!" There have been plenty of movies where whites are portrayed as stupid or retarded. Seen Rainman? I don't accuse the director of trying to say that all white people are retards. Where are the complaints about Keenan and Kel? Kel is a total idiot and always messes everything up for Keenan. He's black too, but it's not trying to say that all blacks are stupid. Geez.

Croaker
05-27-2002, 04:00 PM
Saying that racism was ok in the past and that you remember it fondly is not an excuse to keep it in practice or use it in new movies.

I agree that he may not have done it intentionally but that still doesn't mean that it's right.

therock0603
05-27-2002, 04:27 PM
But don't you see? He's not using racism. He's using the mannerisms of the characters in older movies which he found funny and put them in a new character. He's remembering the character fondly, not the race. That's like saying that any stupid character in a movie, even if he is white or whatever, is being racist towards blacks because they had similar characters in older movies. You couldn't even accuse him of racially stereotyping the Gungans because he provided contrasts. The rest of them were fine in the head. Jar Jar was the only dip of the group, therefore singling it to an individual and not a race.

RooJay
05-28-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I said you weren't 1/10th as "up-in-arms" about the issue as many forumites whose posts can fall under the heading of "quite angrily vocal in opposition" to this topic, how is that an insult? Because you wanted to take it that way? I don't know why you saw it as you did, but the words are CLEAR so I think you need to re-read - unedited - what I typed (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=92932#post92932).


The part of your post that I felt insulted at was your presumption that my view is wrong simply because I don't see the issue as you do. In my mind there is no possibility of "not seeing" Jar Jar's stereotypical, racist characteristics because for me they simply do not exist. If there is nothing there for me to see in the first place then how can I be missing it?

RooJay
05-28-2002, 06:56 PM
The accusation of racism can only be intelligently applied to characters such as Jar Jar, who are not human and who only SUBJECTIVELY apply to human characteristics, if we know for a fact that this was the intent of that character's creator. We DO NOT know this for a fact in Lucas' case. That point can easily be argued either way. Indeed, it can be argued that Jar Jar exhibits characteristics of SEVERAL distinct human races. In that case, which race is he a stereotype of? As I've stated before, he certainly doesn't look black to me.

JediTricks
05-29-2002, 12:24 AM
VT, get this, I don't think I've ever seen that Cosby routine, my sister is big on the Cos but not me.


Originally posted by Caesar
VT, I also thought of the Cos and his novocaine bit from "Himself". I agree that these things should be looked at case by case, for example I immediately discarded the Jango/Clones issue. But there seems to be more to the JarJar issue, unintentional or otherwise . . . although I do not buy into the criticism of him as a gay stereotype.

JT, thanks for those thoughts, I'm going to the video store today and will seek out "High Sierra" to have a look for myself.
I'm certainly aware that those old racial stereotypes exist in movies, I'm just not sure how much of it comes out in Ahmed's performance. Good point about George having wirtten the stuff before he brought in Best, I guess JJB isn't as much a creation of Best's as I would like to think. :(
I agree about that "case by case" thing, I read the Jango/Clones/Latino case and didn't see any truth to the claim. Same with this JarJar/Gay thing, I simply don't see it at all, but that doesn't mean that ALL claims are false.

Glad I could give you a good film example (plus, it's not a bad film either, so even if you don't see what I'm getting at, you get a cool Bogie film :D) and I'm extra glad that you are taking the time to look at my "evidence" first, you are probably the first person I know to take the time to do that. Thank you for taking the time to put in that effort.


Originally posted by therock0603
Has it occurred to any of you that maybe he is emulating these old movies such as High Sierra, but because he likes them? Just like that freakin Kamino issue...he named it after the car, not the Spanish word. He could have done this stuff with Jar Jar because he likes the old movies, not to stereotype a race.
- Actually, yes that has occurred to me and I can even see it being a possibility. However, it wouldn't change the fact that he's using a racist stereotype, it would only change the issue of whether it was intentional or not. If you made a film with the character you based off of Slave Jim from Huck Finn, you may not know your character is racist, but that doesn't change the fact that the racism is there. Inherent or not, racism hurts us all.

That El Camino issue doesn't entirely fly with me though since the El Camino wasn't out when Lucas was a kid, it came out when he was 21 ('65). It's possible, but Lucas always seemed to me like a '40s and '50s Hot Rod fan. Of course, why using the Spanish word "Camino" which means "Road" or "Way" would be racist by itself seems ridiculous to me as well - Lucas has used non-English words in his films many times, can't see why this would be the offensive one.


Originally posted by RooJay
The part of your post that I felt insulted at was your presumption that my view is wrong simply because I don't see the issue as you do. In my mind there is no possibility of "not seeing" Jar Jar's stereotypical, racist characteristics because for me they simply do not exist. If there is nothing there for me to see in the first place then how can I be missing it? I see, but I think you're misinterpretting my earlier comment. I was saying you see no racist stereotype in this character, not that you don't see the inherent racism in this character. There's a big difference unless you're saying that racist stereotypes don't exist at all in ANY movies.

therock0603
05-29-2002, 01:00 AM
My point is that although he's based off a character that has been used for racial stereotypes, you still can't accuse Lucas of using these stereotypes when putting the funny characteristics into an entiredly new fictional character that he invented. He invented Jar Jar and then used the characteristics that make people laugh (or hate him for being so stupid and useless).

2-1B
05-29-2002, 02:29 AM
JT, no luck with High Sierra at the vid store, it's a pretty mainstream place that has little in the way of old flicks, so it might take a little more digging for me. I pulled out my Rolling Stone '99 "Jar Jar Superstar" issue (great article in general on Ahmed Best). Relating to this topic, he only addressed the accusations that Jar Jar was a Jamaican stereotype . . . but that doesn't really account for the U.S. stereotypes that some films showed long ago. Hmmm, I'm sure you read the article at TFN today about Sam Jackson's take on these allegations.

Ahhh, I really recommend "Bill Cosby Himself". I think it was filmed in 1984, so growing up I saw it on occasion and always loved it. It was just on HBO again, and I still laugh at alot of the stuff. I can't believe I don't own a copy! :crazed: He's touring this fall, doing a show near here - I plan to attend. :happy:

JediTricks
05-29-2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by therock0603
My point is that although he's based off a character that has been used for racial stereotypes, you still can't accuse Lucas of using these stereotypes when putting the funny characteristics into an entiredly new fictional character that he invented. He invented Jar Jar and then used the characteristics that make people laugh (or hate him for being so stupid and useless). Hmm, well since we DON'T know his motivations, we CAN accuse Lucas of using those stereotypes, we just don't know if those accusations are TRUE. If Lucas can't see the inherent racism in the characters he'd be basing his new characters in part or whole off of, he'd be blind to a cultural dillemma and thus indirectly furthering its propogation - so he'd still wear some blame even if it wasn't his intention to further that negative stereotype.

---

Caesar, sorry to hear you struck out with High Sierra. I actually had not read that article on TFN till I read your comment about it. Sammy may believe that, but I hadn't even HEARD Jar Jar when I first noticed the racism in his dialogue (I read it off TFN) so I can't blame Best's ethnicity on my opinion.

As for the Cos on HBO, what do I look like, a millionaire? ;) All kidding aside, I pay $43 a month for BASIC cable and have no interest in dropping another $20 on HBO, even if for "Himself" (which, now that I think about it, I remember not seeing on HBO when I did have it, more than 10 years ago... oh god I'm old! :D). Seriously though, I'll try to catch it next time it's on basic or in the video store.

therock0603
05-29-2002, 12:44 PM
The characters themselves are not racist. But the race in which they used these characteristics was considered racist by some. But they use these idiotic qualities all of the time in movies. There are dumb white people, as well as other dumb people of other races in movies. It's not racist for using qualitites in a character to make him look idiotic just because they have already been used in a black man in a movie. That's ridiculous.

vulcantouch
05-29-2002, 03:19 PM
then you win a jellllowwww pudddding poppppp, frozthen puddding on a sthtick :p
spekin of puddin pops, i too don't see the gay jarjar thing. gay3po, on the other hand. . . :sur:

rock: "We should all be equal"
-so you acknowledge no difference between what Should be and what Is? and even if you do, would your unquestioned self-confidence on this issue have us believe you have an accurate view of how things are not equal, and that you know exactly what should and should not be done or thought about it? :rolleyes:

"He's not using racism. He's using the mannerisms of the characters in older movies which he found funny"
-so you acknoweldge no difference here between Conscious Intent and Result? then how bout this: a robber holds yer mama at gunpoint. cop vt aims his gun and Intends to shoot the robber, but instead hits yer mama. you're not gonna be upset wth me just cuzza the Result are ya? after all, i Intended to do right :rolleyes:

"You're not even discussing the idea at hand"
-at times i am discussing the Way we discuss the issue rather than the issue itself, yes. but don't tell me you don't understand this to be necessary at times, cuz you've been doing the same- behold:

"I never personally assaulted you"
-yet another evasion :rolleyes: i never said you did (nor would i care if you had, cuz unlike you i can take it as Well as dish it out and don't go outta my way to take this kinda thing personal anyway) and it's not the point. the point is that you've not hesitated to "personally" (as you use the term) assault anyone advocating notions you dismiss. what does it matter that those advocates don't happen to be here to read your insults? if you can "personally" assault them, why is it somehow unfair if i Follow Your Lead and do the same to you?
what you are attempting to accuse me of is Ad Hominen arguing, i.e. attacking the person rather than his arguments. but in Your ad hominem attacks you understand, as i do, that there is often little difference between attacking a person and their arguments. after all, if a person is promoting suspect arguments, what does that say about him? thus, pointing out said flaws doesn't exactly Compliment him, does it?
i also notice that, much like the extremists on the Other end, you're quite fond of trafficking in the charged term "racism", attempting frame the issue in such a way as to trick people into thinking the issue is black & white: Either Star Wars Is Racist Or It Isn't. which hopes to leave people little choice: they must either completely agree or completely disagree with you. knowing few would do the latter, you hope to trick them into dismissing this issue entirely.
well, nice try :p
let's spell this issue out in terms even rock might grasp: imagine if you will, a nation much like ours, but in which blacks were the majority and whites were the minority. imagine also this nation has only recently emerged from a hundreds-years long history of legally-sanctioned oppression (which has both national and international roots) by these blacks of these whites. imagine also this dominant black society giving rise to a writer/director- we'll call him George Blackas- who creates a hugely popular sci-fi trilogy. then in 1999 his fourth film premieres, in which he featured an alien race we'll call the Honkans. among the characteristics of the honkan race are: they wear wooden shoes, berets and kilts; drive volvos, watch Friends, square-dance and wrestle alligators; barbeque in their backyards, eat strudel, drink wine coolers and chew tobacco; and listen to jimmy buffett and frequent the Hard Rock Cafe :p
clearly, george blackas borrowed & mixed the characteristics of the honkan race from a wide variety of cultures (french, scottish, australian, german, swedish, dutch, redneck & bruce-willis-wannabes) not on pure aesthetic whim but because they all had one thing in common: All Of Them Are White. so, if it would be understandable that said white minority, coming freshly off several centuries of institutionalized disparity, might have a variety of reactions (ranging from shrugs to suspicion to outrage) to this overly-obvious allegorical mixing to create a subhuman "buffoon/cannon fodder" race (in TPM only droids and gungans were allowed to be shown dying in significant numbers), why is it not understandable that in our own society people might have a variety of reactions to the gungans, cobbled together as they were from zulu, caribbean, american slave & minstrel cultural stereotypes, all of whom only have in common their Blackness?
you can try to dismiss the above analogy on the basis of its hypotheticality, but in doing so you are willfully ignoring the lingering, valid insight it contains.
debate is combat, the combat of ideas, opinion, rhetoric. as a combatant you share with me a taste and talent for blunt, decisive declarations. but as i said, you don't do your homework. you open fire without checking your targets. which is why i've proclaimed you a thug rather than, say, a ronin. you fight here not to further clarity, or balance, or skill. you fight self-indulgently, for the momentary rush of adrenalin, to aggrandize yourself. and it shows in your result: unresearched, overly-obvious conclusions, lazy overgeneralizations, a pathological fear of ambiguity.
a ronin, by contrast, does not allow such ambiguity- however large and turbulent it may loom before him- to scare him into reactively assuming a mirror-image posture of the extremists on the other side, thereby contributing only stridency, noise, smoke and heat (and no light) to the battle. he stays loose & frosty, and maintains a detached view of the entire spectrum of opinion. he then evaluates that spectrum clinically, percieving what is valid and invalid in each band, and understands how the outer bands might come into being despite their obvious flaws. he steps around the trap of helping perpetuate those outer bands by reacting reflexively against them. he further accepts ambiguity by acknowledging areas in which he may lack sufficient personal understanding. if, after doing all that, he still has something to say, only Then does he speak. as a result, his words serve clarity, not mere rhetoric.
not everyone is a ronin, though in your unquestioned self-confidence you certainly fancy yourself one. you tolerate sloppiness in your own method but not in others'. a ronin, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. like i said, we're in a period of transition re these issues, and a ronin understands that sloppy rhetoric by non-ronins is a vital part of that transitional process.
but when a non-ronin portrays himself as a ronin, it's the duty and right of a true ronin to cut off that fraud at the knees. nothing "personal", Shorty :p

"yes, I am saying that certain povs should be suppressed"
-the hysteria and hypocrisy behind this statement speak for themselves-
vt

therock0603
05-29-2002, 04:19 PM
He didn't give the entire Gungan race the qualities that stereotypers saw in blacks long ago. He gave an individual those qualities which are not discriminatory in any way. If I didn't make good grades in school and I was puzzled over the subject of the name of onion rings, I wouldn't be offended by a character having these qualities in a movie. I wouldn't say "oh goodness, they're being racist against whites by portraying one character with the qualities that exist in a small amount of whites (as well as a small amount of hispanics, blacks, asians, etc.). I could claim that Jar Jar was using a racial stereotype against whites because I know someone who acts like that. I could claim the same for any other race. And Vulcantouch, you're saying that I'm assaulting the opposing povs, but so are you. You tell me that I'm wrong, and then accuse me of being unfair and telling you that you are wrong. You're just as sure you're right as I am. And your comparison of what I said to you shooting my mother is in no way the same as the situation at hand. If people are going to be offended by something like that, then it's their problem. There is no good reason to be offended. I know plenty of blacks who don't go around crying about this kind of crap, and I can say much for their character. They are good people who also think stuff like this is bull. The thing is, racism is blinding. If you support stupid claims of racial stereotypes, then you become blinded by it and think everything is racist. Hell, the ones that cry "Racism!" are usually the ones that are the most racist, and will find any reason to hate whites and whoever else has a color to their skin that they do not approve of. Speak of hypocrisy. I look forward to the day when cries of "Racism! Discrimination! Stereotype!" that are lies are ignored just like the little boy who cried "Wolf!" If you choose to believe these lies, you might as well go get ripped off by some phony psychic. I look forward to the day when I see some of you on TLC shows that shows that feature instances of people falling for fraud such as "World's Most Astounding."

RooJay
05-29-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I see, but I think you're misinterpretting my earlier comment. I was saying you see no racist stereotype in this character, not that you don't see the inherent racism in this character. There's a big difference unless you're saying that racist stereotypes don't exist at all in ANY movies.

Fair enough. A simple misunderstanding. Part of the reason why I was trying not to take it as an insult. I wasn't absolutely certain of your meaning.

darthvyn
05-29-2002, 08:01 PM
i love the fact that they are reading in to boba's name, that was created like, 20 years ago, and saying it's racist now. that's some planning on lucas' part, if he really is a racist... they didn't even get his name spelled correctly. i hate all reporters, news casters, and especially weathermen (i know they didn't really have anything to do with this, but why don't you hate them too???)

Master Goeweins
05-29-2002, 11:13 PM
This point is almost a complete waist of time. I think that I just lost ten minutes of my life that I can't get back, just from reading that article.
Anyone that has any true worldly culture would be beyond this.
Jango is Mauri. The actor was in one of the greatest independant films about the Mauri people, Once Were Warriors.
Jar Jar depicting an entire race? Wow... that's pretty ignorant, does that reporter represent their entire race? Scary.
Darth Vader's voice being black only to find out that there's just an angry white man hiding inside? Maybe Lucas used James Earl Jones just because his voice had presence. Possibly ignoring race altogether by casting a black actor to voice a primary character, even though the character was white.
Man... these people need to move out of their small, secluded worlds and catch onto a world that is getting bigger than their small minds.

May the Force be with them, 'cause their brains sure aren't...

therock0603
05-30-2002, 12:18 AM
Exactly. Thank you Master Goeweins.

vulcantouch
05-30-2002, 12:23 AM
-indeed; the difference is i ain't hypocritically cryin like a baby about it :p

"(you) then accuse me of being unfair"
-unfair? show me where i said that :rolleyes: what i'm accusing you of is Hypocrisy- of expecting your opponents to show you certain niceties while you do not show them the same :p

"You're just as sure you're right as I am"
-indeed; the difference is I've Done My Homework (unlike you; did you actually Read my prev. response? damned if i can tell, since you've made Zero specific response to any of its points :rolleyes: ), so my confidence has a much sounder basis :cool:

"He didn't give the entire Gungan race the qualities that stereotypers saw in blacks long ago. He gave an individual those qualities"
-i must say, you're quite adept at and insistent on continuing to miss (or evade) the point, even After i've connected the dots for you (See Prev. Post, ahem ahem) :rolleyes:
vt

therock0603
05-30-2002, 01:02 AM
I don't expect you to show me any "niceties." When did I say that? And yes, I read your response, but the reason I'm not making direct references about it is because I have a point I'm trying to make, rather than just making comments on all your comments like you are doing with me. I did my homework too. I was raised by a family with open minds. I've learned not to be blinded by racism. I am neither racist nor a crier or a supporter of false cries of "racism!" I have also learned to consider certain points. When I first read the thing about Jar Jar, I thought "hmmm...I guess that could be right." I continued to think about it and consider the point and then a day or two later, I thought "well you can't claim that because of [the point that I've been making this entire time which you fail to consider]." I've got an open mind. I consider people's opinions or suggestions and form my own opinion. I'll think "that's a good point," but later after thinking through it I'll understand that there are plenty of other explanations for such a thing, rather than going the easy way out and accusing it of containing stereotypes. And I'm not alone in thinking this... just read Master Goewein's post. Didn't see you make any of your smarta** comments on him.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by RooJay
Fair enough. A simple misunderstanding. Part of the reason why I was trying not to take it as an insult. I wasn't absolutely certain of your meaning. :cool: I honestly had no idea it was even open to an alternate interpretation until your last post, I'm glad we could clear that up. I'll try to be more clear in the future.


Originally posted by darthvyn
i love the fact that they are reading in to boba's name, that was created like, 20 years ago, and saying it's racist now. that's some planning on lucas' part, if he really is a racist... they didn't even get his name spelled correctly.
Yeah, that "Boba/Baba" one didn't seem to have any validity at all, seems like a snap-judgement there. But, maybe it's more obvious how that could be if you're from that part of the world. I dunno, they didn't bag on Ponda Baba though. :D


Originally posted by therock0603
I've learned not to be blinded by racism. I am neither racist nor a crier or a supporter of false cries of "racism!"
Some might suggest that one be not only not blinded by racism, but also not blind to it. Hitler had blinded the rest of the world to his anti-Jew rhetoric before the start of WW2, for a long time, people didn't even believe the stories coming out of Europe about how the Jews were being persecuted. It took brutal, shockingly-accurate photographic footage to convince most of the world that Hitler and his German ubermunsch had performed such evil destruction upon the Jews - and even to this day there are those who say it didn't happen. I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing here TheRock, I'm just pointing out that a blind eye to the propogation of racism, hatred, evil of any kind, is a dangerous thing and a tool for the evil to use against us all.

I don't seem to be able to convince you that Jar Jar has racism as part of the basis for his character, but if you ever see the film "High Sierra", watch for the example I sited with an open mind.

billfremore
05-30-2002, 08:38 AM
I found this rather interesting...

Jackson defends Lucas and STAR WARS choices
Thinks flap over Jar Jar is stupid

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dateline: Thursday, May 30, 2002

By: CHRISTOPHER ALLAN SMITH
By: News Editor
Source: Associated Press


Samuel L. Jackson is finally stepping into the Jar Jar Binks war, three years after the obnoxious Gungan first tripped across the screen before viewers of STAR WARS EPISODE I: THE PHANTOM MENACE.


In fact, Jackson, one of the most visible and influential African American actors working today, thinks armchair critics (the vast majority white) generated the racial controversy surrounding Jar Jar because Ahmed Best (the gait and voice of Jar Jar) is African American.


''I thought it was pretty stupid,'' Jackson told the Associated Press. ''The fact that Ahmed was doing that character may have sent people to that place. But people want to find things, or they want to assign things to everything. And that's not always necessary.''

Dryanta
05-30-2002, 10:27 AM
Good morning Guys,
I have posted here before.but the conversation seemed to be some what more general at the time.
I have tried to read up and get caught up.
I am no expert in these matters.I have lived in Maine most of my life.The only contact I have had with any other race other than my own has been in driving truck all over the country.
I am no fan of the PC mindset.I find political correctness as a different attempt to censor and be bigotted.Tolerance in it's modern use is a bit of a misnomer as well.If you think PC then you're OK.If not then then your intolerant.How tolerant is someone who calls some one else intolerant?See what I'm trying to say.Around and Around we go.If you agree with me then you are a good person,and intelligent.If not then you are some how less enlightened.
Seems pretty two faced to me.
I guess my point is this,If GL is a racist and blatently or covertly puts these ideas onto film,why is it that is wrong?Is he not granted the same free speech the rest of us are?I'm not saying he is.And I have done no real study into the gungan issue.And I also have not read the article that started this thread.I didn't give it enough credibility to read it.May be that's a mistake.
Tolerance is a joke,it defeats itself by declaring someone as intolerant.
The hyper sensitivity we find in the world is reall silly.I can find any number of things to be offended about at any time.
I should file suit against anyone who tells a blonde joke.I am blonde.And so are my wife and four daughters.Oh,now that I mention it don't tell any sexist jokes around me either because as a married man with a mother,two sisters and four daughters you'll offend me.No tall jokes,No truck driver jokes,no biker jokes.
But I am tolerant to everything that I am and do.Just not you and yours.
I don't know if I'm making any sense to you all.I am trying.In this day and age the cry of racism is almost always founded on the racism of the crier.But they are politically correct and tolerant?Again self defeating.
If you want to be racist,sexist,and any other bigoted mindset you can think off then that is your right.If you think it's wrong ,as I do,How can we say so with out being intolerant?Are these people less deserving of tolerance than anyone else?
Sorry to open a potential can of worms but I guess I felt I needed to point out the real idiocy and hypocricy I see in the whole issue.and in myself

therock0603
05-30-2002, 05:05 PM
The reason most didn't believe what was happening in Europe with Hitler was because they didn't want to believe that someone could be killing people so senselessly. No one even knew the extent of it until the Allies came upon the concentration camps after defeating the Germans. Other Germans who claimed to know nothing about it were just afraid of the wrath of Hitler. This situation is entirely different. No one is going around killing mass amounts of blacks because of racism. There are actually hardly any murders based on race anymore. These people are claiming to be discriminated and stereotyped by stupid characters such as Jar Jar Binks and that is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not blind to racism one bit. I have an open mind, as I said. If I knew that there were people killing others based on their race, I would be extremely mad. But this is not a legitimate complaint. Just a bunch of people sitting around on their butts, watching Jerry Springer, and complaining that a Gungan symbolizes them. They're stereotyping themselves.

I'd also like to make a comment on what Dryanta said...about people being two-faced. It's like some of the stupid liberals in Congress right now, criticizing Bush for not doing anything about the warnings he had that Middle Easterns were going to fly planes full of bombs into buildings. How is he supposed to do anything? They get warnings like that all the time that end up not coming about. Clinton got those warnings in 1999 and he did not do anything, and no one criticized him, just because nothing happened. But if something does happen, then Bush is suddenly to blame? How was he supposed to know that these "planes full of bombs" were going to be passenger planes? The only way he could even come near preventing these attacks would be to keep a close eye on Middle Easterns. Had he done that, the liberal democrats would have criticized him and accused him of discriminating against a certain race. So there is nothing he could have done. And when something happened, the liberals blamed him for not doing anything. They are two faced.

Jedi Clint
05-30-2002, 06:37 PM
Please keep it on topic. This thread will be closed if it strays too far!

therock0603
05-30-2002, 08:00 PM
That is on topic. Liberals are the ones who push for all the ridiculous PC stuff, and my example shows that they have proven themselves two-faced in other ways, not just in the PC matter.
So if anyone wanted to say "What they are doing with PC is not two-faced. They are not two-faced at all," then they already have another example of their two-faced actions.

RooJay
05-30-2002, 08:30 PM
Here's something interesting (and quite funny!) that these people neglected to mention (please keep in mind that I'm posting this for the humor, and not to add fuel to the fire!): "Boba" is the female vernacular of the spanish word for someone who is mentally handicapped. Many of Boba Fett's detractors (...and no, I'm not one of 'em) have pointed out how he seems pretty mentally deficient and has a tendency to scream like a girl!:crazed:

therock0603
05-30-2002, 08:57 PM
Hahaha. That's hilarious. You better build up your defenses because I sense an assault by an "army of swarthy lookalikes" whining about stereotypes. I've got my fort built and my archers on the lookout.

Jason B
05-30-2002, 09:29 PM
I haven't read any of this thread, but I will, I can't at the moment, downloading stuff chews up bandwidth on dial-up. :(
Honestly, I don't care that the P.C. people are complaining about it. All that it shows is how stupid they are, and how much they really need a life. I'm assuming someone posted the thing from the Detroit news? If not, tell me and I'll post it. It really is a stupid article, and it shows just how little sense it makes, and how stupid these people are.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Dryanta
I guess my point is this,If GL is a racist and blatently or covertly puts these ideas onto film,why is it that is wrong?Is he not granted the same free speech the rest of us are?I'm not saying he is.And I have done no real study into the gungan issue.And I also have not read the article that started this thread.I didn't give it enough credibility to read it.May be that's a mistake.First off, this thread is set off by a very interesting article that I don't think has any real validity, but it says a lot about "PC/racial hypersensitivity" as it deals with Ep 2, and you may want to give it a read. However, I want to balance that out by stating that I believe not all cries of racism are the result of hypersensitivity, and I think it'd be stereotyping to say they are.

Now to what I found interesting enough to hit the "quote" button under your post Dryanta, whether it's "wrong" of George Lucas to use racist stereotypes in his movies:

It's his "right" to do or say whatever he wants in his films, absolutely. However, I think it'd be extremely wrong of him to not only deny there may have been some influences (or a direct intent to do so), but to then claim that and aim the film and any racist characters to the next generation with such power. That sort of irresponsible behavior would be propogating hatred onto impressionable young people who shouldn't be exposed to the cruelty of racism at such an early age without understanding why racism is wrong.

Ultimately, since I don't know Lucas' true motives, I may believe Jar Jar is the product of racist stereotypes, but I can't speak to Lucas' intent. However, it sickens me to see racism creep its way back into our society this way, Star Wars is very powerful and commands a lot of attention, while I don't believe it should be used unjustly as a springboard for personal agendas of those who are quick to point fingers, I also don't believe it should be so quickly dismissed if there is evidence that shows claims to be true.

---

BTW, please take Clint's post seriously, let's stay on topic with this thread or it will be closed. This also goes for personal attacks, they're not welcome parts of this discussion - if you can only fight with someone and cannot discuss the issue, then your platform is too weak and you should save your comments until your head is cooler.

therock0603
05-30-2002, 11:25 PM
I don't believe all cries of "racism" are false or because of hypersensitivity. But I do believe the majority of them are now. I wouldn't even give them the compliment of hypersensitivity. People who make false claims or accusations are just stupid, low-down, lazy people. And as to Lucas's right...yes, it is legal and he can do that. Burning crosses is legal because it is a symbol of one's feelings, and freedom of speech cannot be constitutionally suppressed. But it would be morally wrong, in my opinion, to do such a thing, although I do not believe Lucas is doing such a thing. He is in the crossfire of these lazy people with nothing better to do. And yes, Vulcantouch, I did say that people's freedom of speech cannot be legally suppressed. But I think they should be honorable enough and have enough integrity to not make these false claims for money, or whatever the motivation.

The Chosen One
05-31-2002, 01:13 AM
I personally don't believe there is meant to be any racism in Star Wars. But my friend was pretty ****ed off with Episode I. He is Asian and he thinks the Neimodian's (Nute Gunray...just in case...) are racist to asians. He say's they have big eyes....which kinda look like some Japanese Animation...and that they're accent sound's asian.

Dryanta
05-31-2002, 07:41 AM
Morning all,
I agree with you JT.It is wrong to use an influence such as Star Wars to push a steroetype of any kind.And I also agree that not all claims of discrimination are the result of hypersensitvity.
I see the empty claims as a major detraction from the real and genuine problem that does still exist.That is ultimately what bothers me the most about the PC bit.It hinders real progress,and drags the issue down to low levels of common sense.
I have four children,two of which have been in school for some time now.The third starts Kindergarten in the fall.While it would be wrong for GL or any other movie maker to use that kind of influence on children.Some teachers do the same thing.But most of their actions are "pro" PC so no one dares say anything.I do and have.And they are plenty of other Movie makers that load their product chok full of stereotypes but they are seen as positive so it's a good thing.I really don't know how to make the ultimate point I would like to.
Until the day comes when we longer even notice that some one is a different color then it will always exist.Some cling so desparately to their racial heritage that they lose sight of the much broader issue of being Human.Not white,black,red,purple whatever.We share a common history,it's a small planet.
That is the hypocracy I spoke of finding in myself in my previous post.

vulcantouch
05-31-2002, 01:17 PM
. . .just like when japanese civilians yell in dubbed godzilla movies ;)
speaking of incompatible speech, does anyone else smell a contradiction in the following two statements?
rock, post 110: "yes, Vulcantouch, I did say that people's freedom of speech cannot be legally suppressed"
rock, post 78: "yes, I am saying that certain povs should be suppressed"
-let's give rock the benefit of the doubt and assume he simply didn't use the edit button in time to clear up what is, at best, a mere error in phrasing and, at worst, self-serving hair-splitting worthy of any washington lawyer :rolleyes: meanwhile, i await rock's attempt to explain away this apparent contradiction :)

"complaining that a Gungan symbolizes them"
-again, you are oversimplifying the issue, just as your extremist opponents on the far side do. i again suggest you read thru post 92 Carefully.

"I'll think 'that's a good point,' but later after thinking through it I'll understand that there are plenty of other explanations for such a thing"
-and then, you immediately throw out the initial explanation in favor of those other, less uncomfortable explanations. that's the difference between you & me: i don't allow discomfort with ambiguity to push me into prematurely ruling something out. i am capable of considering incompatible notions simultaneously.

"I don't expect you to show me any 'niceties.' When did I say that?"
-when you whined "lay off the personal assaults on me" (and in all subsequent repetitions of the same complaint), your hypocritical expectation to be treated with kid-gloves is clear. "c'mon, show a little Backbone!" -jock to indy, ROTLA :)

"the point that I've been making this entire time which you fail to consider"
-don't Tell me i've failed to consider your point, Show me i have :rolleyes: specify Which point and how i've neglected it.

"the reason I'm not making direct references about it is because I have a point I'm trying to make, rather than just making comments on all your comments like you are doing with me"
-"just"? how disingenuous: anyone reading my posts can see for themselves i'm not Just dealing with your points. i'm also making my own. if i can do both, why can't you? it couldn't be because you're Unable to respond to my points directly, could it?
besides, sometimes refutation and point-making are inseparable; not that i expect an habitually bivalent thinker like yourself to acknowledge that :rolleyes:

"Didn't see you make any of your smarta** comments on him"
-"smarta** comments"? like the man at the hardware store sez, "the right tool for the right job" :D what you call my "smarta** comments" are a Perfect tool for puncturing the glib, strident, intellectually lazy, puffed-up, oversimplifying overconfidence anyone would sport in response to an issue as nuanced as this :cool:
and why should you care if i'm focusing my fire in your direction? what's the matter? you're not starting to feel. . . Discriminated Against, are you? :rolleyes:
no matter. to answer your question: by refuting you i also refute those who express the Exact Same Points you express, thereby maximizing the discussion's focus and efficiency. but you may still wonder, why you and not one of them?
as i've said, you share with me a talent for blunt, decisive declarations. in other words, you express yourself effectively- more so than your fellow dittoheads here. which makes you the big doggy on the "this entire issue is bs" block.
as in prison and everywhere else, one picks one's battles. if he wishes to save himself unnecessary trouble, a new inmate immediately goes after & takes down the biggest dawg on the cellblock, which decisively demonstrates his supremacy to all onlookers. then, until an even badder dawg comes along (That'll be the day :happy: ), all subsequent skirmishes are inconsequential and do not threaten him- or, in this context, his arguments :)
so if anything, you should be Flattered that i've singled you out for toppling :happy: but if you'd rather feel picked on (or Discriminated against), i spose i can't stop ya :rolleyes:
but now that i have toppled you (or rather, your pov), i imagine every future point you'll make has already been dealt with in my prev. posts here, and since Unlike Some People i loathe repeating myself unnecessarily, i spose i'm done for now- barring, of course, any future quips from you or others here which just Beg for a delish "smarta**" rebuttal courtesy. . .
vt ;)
p.s. to dry: "Tolerance is a joke"
-occasionally; but it's also the best expression we'll ever have of the american ideal of plurality. it is the neutral middle-ground between approval and intolerance :)

therock0603
05-31-2002, 02:37 PM
It's called recanting my previous statement. That's why I said "Yes, Vulcantouch, I did say...." to point out to you that I was taking back my previous statement. I believe that we can't suppress people's freedom of speech, but when it's on a ridiculous issue such as this, they should have the integrity to keep their mouths shut about it because it's not something a real man would complain about.

Deoxyribonucleic
05-31-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by therock0603
I don't believe all cries of "racism" are false or because of hypersensitivity. But I do believe the majority of them are now.

WHOA! I can't believe people actually FEEL this way! No WONDER America is where it still is concerning racial issues...in the DARK AGES!

Example 1: When 9.11 occurred and "Americans" went around beating up people with Turbans or people who "looked" Arab???

Example 2: The abolition of Affirmative Action

Example 3: First hand experience of racism being very pervasive in this country as I am white and my partner is African American/Native American and I see people treating us differently one, because we are a "mixed" couple and two, how my partner is mistreated without the "mixed" attribute coming into issue; especially by middle-aged white men who grew up in the 50's and 60's and were intolerant of Civil Rights. Thank the maker for the Warren Court or we would probably still be in the DARK AGES.

Example 4: As mentioned above, The Warren Court and it's constitutional interpretations and rules of law bringing about Civil Rights was ONLY 40 years ago and this country is well older than that and ONLY 40 years ago America decided to "give" minorties their "INHERENT RIGHTS"....COME ON....let's get with the picture here and realize that racism IS VERY PERVASIVE in this country as of TODAY and is NOT getting any better soon UNLESS people stop making statements as quoted in the beginning of this post!!!!!

therock0603
05-31-2002, 06:16 PM
Most of your examples are of real racism. This Star Wars stuff is just a bunch of whining prisses. I don't go around beating up Arabs, because that is indeed racism. All of Civil Rights movement was necessary, but it doesn't need to continue. Affirmative Action does need to be abolished because it has surpassed providing equality, and instead is just plain unfair now. I could have a 3.9 GPA and a black man could have a 2.7 and he'd get in just because he was black. That is not fair. That is not promoting equality. They need to do away with knowing race altogether and get students and hire workers based on abilities and not the required percentages of races. There is a black man in Congress right now who is pushing for this. He's saying that when people are hiring for a job or going over student records, they shouldn't know the race and instead should allow entry or hire based on skills and all. Affirmative Action was needed at one time, but it is being taken advantage of and it is giving certain races superiority, when the programs were established to provide equality.
The reason America is still where it is concerning racial issues is because people are continue to complain when they have nothing to complain about. Do blacks and minorities not realize that they have the advantage now? Do they not realize that they are far past being equal to whites? They continue to push for crap like this while they are still superior to us as far as rights are concerned. And the government and society keep providing them rights. Well since they have all of their rights that are necessary already, you may ask "Well where do they find these extra rights?" They find them in the rights of whites. They take our rights away and give them to minorities, and instead of thanking anyone, they continue to cry and whine for more. It's a good thing I'm not trying to get into a college that has a strict admittance policy, because I probably wouldn't get in cosidering I'm white. It's all reverse discrimination now. It's about time whites start speaking up about having their rights taken away and being victims to this reverse discrimination. These hypocrites continue to ask for equal rights, but are really snickering because they know that they are superior.

2-1B
06-01-2002, 12:38 AM
No one's taking your rights away rock, that's a myth being perpetuated to frighten white people into a backlash against nonwhites. Yours is not the first rant I've heard on this subject, I'm sure it won't be the last. They are trying to make the same argument regarding the rights of gay people, and it appears to be working since alot of people are too "frightened" to see the situation clearly. Classic means of division, it seems to work on alot of people. Many times I've heard people on edge about 'minorities getting so many breaks' . . . I think they are secretly worried about an America that is not predominantly white. They are fine with limited advances, but God forbid someone else really excel. I noticed the same scare tactic in people talking about how 'whites are not even the majority anymore.' Uhhh, true when you lump every person of nonwhite ethnicity into one monolithic super-minority group, but it's intellectually dishonest. America has a history of doing that, just look at the political nature of the term "white". Fine by me if the pendulum swings in the other direction for awhile. :)

vt, I can't decide if I want the pudding pop or the roll of Kodak film -- how did that Cosby spoof on Simpsons go . . . "let me tell you 'bout Jello pudding - no, let me tell you 'bout Kodak film" :p

JT, I watched Bill Cosby: Himself again last night, and the biggest praise I can give it is that it made me laugh as a kid (released in '83, I saw it a few years after) and it makes me laugh as an adult. That's good comedy! :D

Deoxyribonucleic
06-01-2002, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by therock0603
Most of your examples are of real racism. This Star Wars stuff is just a bunch of whining prisses. I don't go around beating up Arabs, because that is indeed racism. All of Civil Rights movement was necessary, but it doesn't need to continue. Affirmative Action does need to be abolished because it has surpassed providing equality, and instead is just plain unfair now. I could have a 3.9 GPA and a black man could have a 2.7 and he'd get in just because he was black. That is not fair. That is not promoting equality. They need to do away with knowing race altogether and get students and hire workers based on abilities and not the required percentages of races. There is a black man in Congress right now who is pushing for this. He's saying that when people are hiring for a job or going over student records, they shouldn't know the race and instead should allow entry or hire based on skills and all. Affirmative Action was needed at one time, but it is being taken advantage of and it is giving certain races superiority, when the programs were established to provide equality.
The reason America is still where it is concerning racial issues is because people are continue to complain when they have nothing to complain about. Do blacks and minorities not realize that they have the advantage now? Do they not realize that they are far past being equal to whites? They continue to push for crap like this while they are still superior to us as far as rights are concerned. And the government and society keep providing them rights. Well since they have all of their rights that are necessary already, you may ask "Well where do they find these extra rights?" They find them in the rights of whites. They take our rights away and give them to minorities, and instead of thanking anyone, they continue to cry and whine for more. It's a good thing I'm not trying to get into a college that has a strict admittance policy, because I probably wouldn't get in cosidering I'm white. It's all reverse discrimination now. It's about time whites start speaking up about having their rights taken away and being victims to this reverse discrimination. These hypocrites continue to ask for equal rights, but are really snickering because they know that they are superior.

I sense bitterness and fear in your answer! I think that if you were a minority you would NOT feel the way YOU do now! But each to her/his own and may the gods be with you when you are a MINORITY!

Jedi Clint
06-01-2002, 02:04 AM
Fine by me if the pendulum swings in the other direction for awhile.

IMO that is a formula for failure in regards to human equality. The ideal of equality is far too important (in the United States especially) to allow our focus to be diluted by such attitudes. We know what comes of putting importance on the color of our skin. If we are going to eliminate that stigma from our daily lives, then it must be completely eradicated.....no pendulum. All human beings are extemely complex creatures. It is sad that any of us would choose to quantify ourselves primarily by such a small and relatively insignifigant portion of our genetic composition. I fear the majority of our population regardless of their skin pigmentation, puts entirely too much emphasis on outward appearance. We're never going to change if our focus remains where it is.

JediTricks
06-01-2002, 04:17 AM
First, this thread is dangerously close to being closed because it's barely in sight of the original topic.

Second, when you close your eyes to the racism that is still around you, you are helping that racism continue. If anybody here thinks that "all things are now equal" for non-white races in the US, they need to delve deeper into the damned issue because they're dilluting themselves and furthering our country's failure in this department - issues of poverty, poor education, unsafe housing and neighborhoods, poor health care, and a welfare system that simply keeps to the bare minimum instead of giving a realistic a leg up.

Look at the Census (http://www.census.gov) data, the problems may be getting better in some areas, but even still, non-whites certainly aren't doing as well as whites, look at the poverty issue alone, it's not that disgusting "blacks are just lazy" crap that was around and so popular less than 50 years ago, it's that the black community has had less than 50 years of real civil liberties in this country and things are still not "equal" for them. You look at the data and tell me how the largest non-white races have it BETTER than whites in the US, how about even equal. I've known probably hundreds of "non-whites" that work their asses off to make minimum wage because the education system failed them and they don't have the life skills to get better jobs, and most of these people WORK for their tiny amount of money - they ride the bus every day for 3 hours, they bust their backs for hours on end at humiliating, demeaning jobs just to make a pittance to create a better life for their children and the system doesn't reward them for this, it helps keep them down; they pay their taxes and try to make a community and our system hasn't done enough to recognize that, not by a long shot.

The reason America is still where it is concerning racial issues is because the it's still a problem, it's not being fixed right.

vulcantouch
06-01-2002, 12:21 PM
-ah, i see; instead a real man's complaints would go something like "vt, lay off the personal assaults on me, wah wah waaaahhhhh" :cry: ? :rolleyes:

"It's called recanting my previous statement. That's why I said 'Yes, Vulcantouch, I did say....' to point out to you that I was taking back my previous statement"
-you say this as though it would be perfectly obvious to anyone reading your posts.
since you refuse to do the homework of reading My posts carefully, perhaps you'll try re-reading your Own posts. maybe then you'll see why i'm now wondering if i should take back my remark about you expressing yourself clearly :rolleyes:

"they have all of their rights that are necessary already"
-leave it to rock to miss (or obscure) the point; abstract Rights are no longer the issue here- actual Advantages and Disparities are.

"people are continue to complain when they have nothing to complain about"
-yeah, you're right, non-whites have Nothing to complain about: america's all hunky-dory & perfectly fair for them now :rolleyes:

"I could have a 3.9 GPA"
-you Could, but why do i get the feeling you Don't?
not surprisingly, i never hear anyone whine more about the 100% unfairness of affirmative action than mediocre whites, since it's made them have to Exert themselves and compete for a change :rolleyes:
vt

therock0603
06-01-2002, 07:43 PM
Actually Vulcantouch, I am going into 12th grade next year with a 3.8 GPA. I'm on the National Honor Roll now. To get into that, you have to be among the top 4.5% of high school students in America. I know plenty of extremely smart people who think that affirmative action is ridiculous. It makes more sense for someone with good grades like me to complain about this sort of thing, because in the end, my grades and good reputation might end up not mattering because my ancestors weren't discriminated against. And you've been criticizing me for misquoting you and saying that you never said some of the stuff I said you did....I never said "wah wah waaaahhhhh" as you quoted me as saying. Looks like someone made an error in quoting while mixed up in all their use of bombastic language. And I wasn't complaing when I said to lay off the personal assaults. That's called a request. And yes, a real man would ask someone to quit. But you didn't...you set the standard...so I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid saying crap to you. I'm sorry that your ears have been closed to all the unfairness spoken of because I know plenty of people who talk about it. I know blacks who think the same and criticize people complaining about stuff like this for their laziness. Even Africans see the blacks that complain about this kinda stuff as lazy.

vulcantouch
06-01-2002, 09:07 PM
oh Criminy, if yer sucha smart cookie cantcha tell when someone's Obviously jist crackin a lil Jokey-joke?? :D :rolleyes: :p :happy: :crazed: :evil: :stupid: ;)

"I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid saying crap to you"
-well Now we're getting somewhere :cool:

"I know blacks who think the same and criticize people complaining about stuff like this"
-indeed; a wide range of opinions (in the black community and the culture at large) re issues as complex as these is not only to be expected, it's Exactly What's Called For :)
vt

2-1B
06-02-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
IMO that is a formula for failure in regards to human equality. The ideal of equality is far too important (in the United States especially) to allow our focus to be diluted by such attitudes. We know what comes of putting importance on the color of our skin. If we are going to eliminate that stigma from our daily lives, then it must be completely eradicated.....no pendulum. All human beings are extemely complex creatures. It is sad that any of us would choose to quantify ourselves primarily by such a small and relatively insignifigant portion of our genetic composition. I fear the majority of our population regardless of their skin pigmentation, puts entirely too much emphasis on outward appearance. We're never going to change if our focus remains where it is.

Clint, I appreciate your view and respect your sincerity. But I'm worried that you might misunderstand my "pendulum" comment. I'm not advocating that white people should be oppressed for the sake of nonwhites. Rather, some of my fellow white Americans are clearly accepting of equality 'up to a certain point' as long as they retain their superiority in their own minds. So when I say I'm alright if the pendulum swings backward, I mean in the sense that some people could use a good shaking from their mindsets. Sorry if my post was confusing. :(

Yes, we are very complex . . . and I disagree with many people who claim we should just ignore skin color. WHY should we? Children ask questions based on their observations that so many people in this country look different. That's a good thing. "Truly wonderful the mind of a child is. --Yoda" That "wonderful mind" does not come into this world with prejudice. It's learned. The problem is not that "we" have put too much emphasis on our skin color, instead the problem is that historically as well as today others put too much emphasis on the skin colors of those they seek to demean and those they fear.

America the melting pot? No thanks, I'll pass. I want to see the differences in the appearances of my friends. It's in that sense that America succeeds, the fact that I can interact with so many different people, loving them not "regardless" of their ethnic/racial differences from me, but instead loving them partly because of their differences. I'm saddened that this is not the case for many others. :cry:

JT, your post was excellent, I hope more people stumble in here and read it. Very nicely done.

vt,

"-indeed; a wide range of opinions (in the black community and the culture at large) re issues as complex as these is not only to be expected, it's Exactly What's Called For"

Thank you, that is so true. It's too convenient for some people to point at a few other people they know of a particular race/ethnicity and justify their own opinions on the matter because those same few people agree with them. That should not be used as a springboard to label all people of that particular community as being in complete agreement.

I know we've gotten way off thread topic JT, but I'm glad I had the chance to pop back in one more time.
Take care everyone. :)

JediTricks
06-02-2002, 08:12 PM
Wow, thanks Caesar, I actually thought about pulling it when I wrote it because it's a bit further than I usually want to go.


As for America being the great melting pot no more, I think we, as a country, have brought shame our ancestors (and to our forebearers, but that's a different rant) who felt that America was great because it was theirs to mold into something where EVERYBODY is as different as they are the same - where those differences could be our strengths rather than our weaknesses. I think "the great melting pot" was supposed to mean not that everybody who comes to this country must become "vanilla", but that they come willingly to make something better for their families and by doing so add their distinct flavor to the rest of ours, thus creating something larger and better. Each and every human being is different, ideally we should be able to celebrate our similarities AND our differences at the same time rather than let those differences tear us apart - integration doesn't have to mean destroying one's cultural heritage, it should mean allowing others with different ideas and backgrounds be a part of a community. We're not "all white" or "all black" or "all catholic" or "all muslim" here, most immigrants that come here did so to become "all American".

RooJay
06-03-2002, 08:32 PM
I have a bit of a touching (AND telling) story to relate regarding race and how differences are viewed by children.

A friend of mine who happens to be african-american ended up having a discussion about race a few years back with her then 6 year old daughter. The talk occured as a result of an incident her daughter was involved in in her kindergarten class. Apparently another african-american student implied to my friend's daughter that she was inferior (more or less; not her exact words) due to the fact that she had darker skin. This left my friend's daughter feeling expectedly upset. After the customary school meeting with the parents of the other girl my friend decided to ask her daughter about race to see if she even knew the difference. She asked her daughter if she had any other black friends like her. Her daughter answered that she had lots of "black" friends, some "brown" friends, and even some "yellow" friends. My friend, being of the same mind as most of society, thought that this meant her daughter had some black friends, some hispanic friends, and some asian friends. She was a bit concerned that her daughter didn't seem to have any white friends. She was a bit surprised on a subsequent visit to her daughter's school when she asked her daughter to introduce her to her "yellow" friend and her daughter led her to a BLONDE haired, caucasian girl! My friend's daughter just assumed that all this talk of people of different color was supposed to be in regards to their HAIR color! The innocence of a child's mind in action.:)

2-1B
01-12-2008, 06:01 PM
Back on topic, for as much grief as GWLu took over Jar Jar, I guess the Jackie Robinson Foundation doesn't see that as The Flannel's legacy. :)

http://starwarsblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/jackie-robinson-foundation-set-to-honor-george-lucas/

They had that linked at TFN

Jargo
01-12-2008, 06:23 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WiloZd1H4ow&feature=related

El Chuxter
01-14-2008, 05:35 PM
You know who's really racist?

Slicker's Mom.

She charges minorities a dollar more for her services than she does white folks.

JediTricks
01-14-2008, 05:35 PM
Someone please explain how Lucas is making "significant commitments to advancing equal opportunity and improving the human condition." It must be the 2 black people in ESB.


So, slicker's mom charges them $1.01?

El Chuxter
01-14-2008, 05:51 PM
So, slicker's mom charges them $1.01?

I deliberately left that open to see how long it would be until someone pointed that out. :)

2-1B
01-14-2008, 06:00 PM
Someone please explain how Lucas is making "significant commitments to advancing equal opportunity and improving the human condition." It must be the 2 black people in ESB.

I think they mean in the realm of education, not crappy Sci-Fi flicks that will be gone from public consciousness a hundred years from now. :p

TeeEye7
01-14-2008, 06:31 PM
...must be the 2 black people in ESB.

I count three:

Lando

The Bespin security guard

Ice Cream Maker Guy



Slicker's mom also discriminates by not accepting American Express.

JediTricks
01-14-2008, 07:18 PM
I think they mean in the realm of education, not crappy Sci-Fi flicks that will be gone from public consciousness a hundred years from now. :pAaaand, where did he do this in regards to advancing equal opportunity? Oh, let me guess, he produced all those "The More You Know" PSAs for NBC?


I count three:

Lando

The Bespin security guard

Ice Cream Maker GuyThe last 2 are the same guy with different facial hair and costumes. ;) Yeah, you're right, that last one makes all the difference, we should all thank Dr. George Lucas King, Jr for that casting.

jediguy
01-16-2008, 12:08 PM
I wanted to post something about star wars being racist, but I don't think I am qualified now

my take on Jar Jar was that the world (universe) is full of all kinds of folks, some annoying and others not so much

I tell my friends who don't care for Jar Jar that his presence is one of tolerance and acceptance
some say 'star wars would be so much better without Jar Jar'
I tell them 'the bible would be so much better without Judas'

the whole Jango is hispanic thing is totally new to me, and I lived in the Detroit area when all of the prequels came out

I personally am a short skinny white guy
I rode the bus to work at McDonalds, and was the ONLY white guy on the bus
one day the bus driver pulled over and told everyone on the bus that he will not tolerate hearing comments about killing the white kid

racism will never go away until we are all one race
oh wait a minute, we are all one race
the HUMAN race

do you think we will win first place?
I don't even know what the prize is, a trophy or medal?