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View Full Version : So which is your favorite Star Wars movie Now?



Tycho
05-20-2002, 12:04 AM
Alright, a lot of people have been suggesting a poll that ranks the Star Wars movies.

Well, it's going to be a little tougher than that! Maybe we'll have to do this brackett tournament style, but we're going to determine the Best, first.

So you can vote for only ONE - your current Favorite Star Wars movie out of five.

If we want to rank the movies, the winner of the title "Best Star Wars Movie Now" will drop out of the selection between the next 4. Then we'll obviously learn which one is second best and so on.

However, this poll will provide a great forum for comparing each of the movies with one another (something I haven't seen started on these forums yet, but that is predictable, sooner than later anyway).

So vote for your favorite and tell us why you think so!

Wonderboy
05-20-2002, 12:37 AM
I rank them in the following order (least to fave):

5. Return of the Jedi
4. The Phantom Menace
3. A New Hope
2. The Empire Strikes Back
1. Attack of the Clones - Yup, it's my favorite :happy:

I'm 28...saw "A New Hope" in the theater the day it was released in 1977. My mom took me to see it 17 times in the theatre. She saved all of the ticket stubs...man I have a great mom!

plo koon 200
05-20-2002, 12:44 AM
This poll was though. AOTC has the most plot and action of them all. Yet it only leads up. The Phantom Menace has some plot but a lo of talking and annoying things. Yet it is a good intro to the story. ANH introduced Star Wars and has many famous lines. Yet the most important events take place in the next two movies. EMPIRE has little plot yet the best scene. But with JEDI everything comes full circle and the balance is made. I vote JEDI for best because it ends the story near perfectly. I also do not mind Ewoks and it was also the first Star Wars movie I saw. I think many younglings who have just started seeing Star Wars will like AOTC the most.

quigon_jimm
05-20-2002, 12:51 AM
OK, in order, my favorites go as follows:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. Attack of the Clones
4. New Hope
5. Phantom Menace

Tycho
05-20-2002, 12:54 AM
You might state your age and what movie you saw first (example: A New Hope in 1977) and then which one you liked best.

That's not a bad idea.

Darth Knight
05-20-2002, 12:57 AM
Here is my order. One being my favorite and five the least favorite.

1-The Empire Strikes Back
2-A New Hope
3-Attack Of The Clones
4-The Phantom Menace
5-Return Of The Jedi

Darth Knight
05-20-2002, 01:02 AM
The first one i saw was Star Wars " A New Hope" when i was 6 years old back in 1977.

stillakid
05-20-2002, 01:08 AM
I voted ANH. I saw it first in 1977 when I was about 8 years old.

It's disturbing and disheartening to see such low numbers for ANH. Empirically speaking, ANH is a much stronger film than the others when you look at it's positive attributes across the board. Plot, character development, pacing, dialogue, humor, direction, fx, art direction, sound... There may be specific examples in the other films that may be better, but in terms of "scoring" the film on the whole, ANH far and away is a more solid effort. And besides, it is ANH that is the cause for the rest of the films and the cause for fans in the first place. Without ANH, none of the others would have been made. It can't possibly be so bad as to score just above TPM. That's just crazy. Well, Bush got elected too, so there's no accounting for rational thought. ;)

corporal AMF
05-20-2002, 01:30 AM
I'm with you stillakid.....I voted for ANH...it's like a highschool girlfriend..I was 5 years old when I saw it...and if you give me the option to see in my life only one SW movie I'll choose ANH...I know other movies are more complex, darker, but ANH is a world in itself....a lot of innocence, a lot of growing up......we all could have lived with only that StarWars film...

DarthJdog
05-20-2002, 01:31 AM
My favorites... 1 being the Best 5 being the least favorite....

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Attack of the Clones
3. Return of the Jedi
4. A New Hope
5. The Phantom Menace

Why? because Empire strikes back had such a big BOOM throughout not only the begining of the movie, but towards the middle, and the end. So what does that mean? It held my interest throughout the whole movie! Attack of the clones would of been my favorite if there was more Jedi involved. Lucas did not really touch up on the Jedi, its like i had a glance of all of them. Another thing about the movie is with Anakin. He should of been in there longer with the 2 sabers fighting, but within 5-6 seconds his hand was cut off! How depressing, a whole 5 seconds with 2 light sabers. I thought it would be a lot better if the Jedi's were shown more and the duel between Dooku and Anakin (2 light sabers) was longer. Perhaps I will get to see Luminara Unduli for more then 2 seconds in the third film =\. We'll see what happens.

-Jaydog

corporal AMF
05-20-2002, 01:32 AM
I mean the pool is about my favourite, not the one which I found it's the best
Still don't know why ANH has so little votes:confused:
Maybe this poll should've been made two months ago , or in a couple of months, whent all the hype about AOTC is gone...so the vision is more clear

Steingrabber
05-20-2002, 01:33 AM
I have to say my favorites fall in this order:

1. Attack of the Clones-IMHO the most dramatic of the films. Made me cry, I'll admit it. Also, the most fun, extremely visual, and far-reaching in the grand scheme of things. Hayden was awesome, Ewan IS Obi-wan, and Natalie is perfect. 3PO and R2 felt sooooo classic "Oh! Idiot!", "For a mechanic, you do an excessive amount of thinking!". I could go on and on!

2. The Empire Strikes Back-Smooth and beautiful. Difficult to decide between this and AOTC, but Empire never touched me the way Ep2 has. Also changed my favorite line of dialogue, unforgivable. "Bring my shuttle."

3. A New Hope-It started it all, and has some of the greatest moments in the saga. Too many to list!

4. Return of the Jedi-Has its good moments, but too many elements I could do without.

5. The Phantom Menace-Not a bad film, but not a great film either. I don't hate Jar Jar, but I didn't really CARE about anyone in the film. So many things could have been done better.

I really hope Episode III will end up the champ. I can't believe some of the reviews for Ep2 saying there aren't any memorable lines and that the script and the acting are bad. Another comment I keep hearing is that "this is a movie for the fans"...and this is supposed to be a BAD thing??!! Ha! Thank Gawd!:D

CaptainSolo1138
05-20-2002, 01:46 AM
The first SW movie I ever saw in the theater was ROTJ. I remember this so well cause I was terrified of Yoda ( I was three!! Lay off !!:D ) From favorite to least favorite, my list is:

*The Empire Strikes Back
*Attack of the Clones
*A New Hope
*Return of the Jedi
*The Phantom Menace

I didn't put AOTC first for one reason: You know how when you get a new toy and it's the best thing in the world and then two weeks later you don't touch it? That's how I feel about AOTC. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome movie. I just think that when the novelty wears off, it might drop a spot or two. Heck, TPM was my favorite movie three years ago
:rolleyes:

netsolo
05-20-2002, 03:09 AM
1- ESB
2- AOTC
3- ANH
4- ROTJ
5- TPM

I guess that's saying a lot for AOTC and as to how much I enjoy this film! :)

CooLJoE
05-20-2002, 03:50 AM
23 here. I saw the original SW movies first on VHS. Then again with the THX VHS, then saw the first 2 SEs the first day and saw ROTJ SE the 2nd day. I've even seen all 3 SEs on VHS before Phantom. You could say I was VERY MUCH hooked on SW.

Saw TPM first showing and again the opening day. And between then and AOTC I saw the SEs all over again about 2 times and have watched TPM DVD about 4 times. I've seen AOTC 2 times now (first showing and again opening day) and will be seeing it this thursday for a 3rd time.

After all that, here is my list in order:

1. Empire Strikes Back - What can I say, great action scenes (AT-ATs rule!), first time Luke finds out about Vader being his father, losing his hand, poor Han in carbonite. Just overal awesome.

2. Attack of the Clones - Much like ESB (flows kinda like ESB, except it has the battle at the end) the scenes were awesome, Anakin loses an arm, Boba's origin, start of the empire (though not called empire yet), basically the first storm troopers (which just rule!), and the seeing Anakin being torn between hatred and obediance (dark side begins).

3. A New Hope - The beginning of the whole SW series. Not in story order, but in order of being released. Its what brought thousands+ into an incredible story and world.

4. The Phantom Menace - Start of Anakin, Pod race was cool, Qui Gon Jinn's death (which is unfortunate), Trade Federation's start into what becomes the Clone Wars.

5. Return of the Jedi - Still a good movie, but it lacked some of the things the other movies had. Ewoks were a bit cheesy, but also a nice addition to the movie. The beginning was probably the best part of the movie, as well as the fight between Vader and Luke and the demise of the Emperor.

plasticfetish
05-20-2002, 06:01 AM
Hmmmm ...

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Attack of the Clones
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace.

I use 2 basic standards in ranking these movies.
First, how excited was I to see it (when it was released in the theater) before, during and after.
Second, how badly or how often would I like to watch it again (on video or whatever).

I was 8 or 9 when A New Hope (then just Star Wars) came out ... I can remember distinctly the world before there was a Star Wars and I can remember specifically why and when everything changed. The humor, the characters, the action and very importantly the overall look of the movie. It was high tech ... but, it all seemed to make sense. Not to mention, you could carry the characters from the movie around in your pockets.

To this day I think A New Hope is a cool looking movie.
The reasons I vote Empire Strikes Back as my favorite, have a lot to do with how great ANH was before it. The anticipation for that second movie was intense ... I can remember being ready to burst before it started and it held me all the way through.
The end of the movie ... the duel between Luke and Darth Vader, I would say is my favorite scene in any of these movies.
Attack of the Clones had me in much the same way. I wanted to like this one, as we all did, and it held me in much the same manner all the way through.
The Return of the Jedi? A great one for many reasons ... but, maybe my hysteria had been dulled a little by my ensuing prepubescent snotty attitude ... or maybe because later I became so sick of seeing Ewoks on TV specials. (I remember the Wookie special from the '70s ... Wookie Christmas? Were do we rank the TV specials?)
The Phantom Menace comes in last for most of the obvious reasons. It seems to lag behind, but not by much. I enjoy watching the movie on tape, it's good science fiction and good fun .... and that's what it's all about.

Quite-Gone Jim
05-20-2002, 08:29 AM
I had to vote ANH. I saw it in the summer of '77 when I was 2 and a half. Seeing this movie is the earliest memory I have (I'm getting sentimental in my old age).

Empire is a close second. Nothing can top the surprise of learning Vader is Luke's father. Plus the acting (while still not great) was a bit better than Clones.

Attack of the Clones is my number 3. The first hour, the acting is pretty bad, but it does improve. I like the story a lot, and yoda just kicks butt.

Return is fourth. The story tied everything together and wrapped things up nicely.

Phantom just sucked. While I know there was a lot of setup that needed to happen, there just wasn't enough going on to keep me interested. Watch the very boring invasion, take a nap, watch the exciting pod race, take a nap, watch the final duel.

George will really have to screw up Episode III (Fall of the Jedi?) to be worse the Phantom.

Dak Powers
05-20-2002, 08:31 AM
To 3 of you (may be more) - TPM over ROTJ?! What on Earth is wrong with you?!

Quite-Gone Jim
05-20-2002, 08:35 AM
I had to vote ANH. I saw it in the summer of '77 when I was 2 and a half. Seeing this movie is the earliest memory I have (I'm getting sentimental in my old age).

Empire is a close second. Nothing can top the surprise of learning Vader is Luke's father. Plus the acting (while still not great) was a bit better than Clones.

Attack of the Clones is my number 3. The first hour, the acting is pretty bad, but it does improve. I like the story a lot, and yoda just kicks butt.

Return is fourth. The story tied everything together and wrapped things up nicely.

Phantom just sucked. While I know there was a lot of setup that needed to happen, there just wasn't enough going on to keep me interested. Watch the very boring invasion, take a nap, watch the exciting pod race, take a nap, watch the final duel.

George will really have to screw up Episode III (Fall of the Jedi?) to be worse the Phantom.

lunchymeatball
05-20-2002, 08:39 AM
1 Empire
2 New Hope
3 AOTC
4 Jedi
5 TPM
Everyone I talked to thought TPM was good when they left the cinema.
As time goes on then you can truly see which one is great which is why AOTC will have to be mighty special in 5 yrs to surpass the legendary first two.
(Jedi really gets on my nerves so I put AOTC before it out of spite:evil:

Wookie Boy
05-20-2002, 10:17 AM
I never saw any of the original trilogy in the theatre as a kid ( I am now 29). And I had not actually seen any of the films completely until I was 21 at a charity screening when a local theatre showed all 3 back to back to back (plus a drink and popcorn for $10:) ). I saw both E1 and E2 at the midnight showing. It is obvious to me that A New Hope is by far the best movie. George does an excellent job with characterization and story in this movie. If not for the great job that George did on A New Hope, then you would not even care about the characters and there would be no other Star Wars movies. My favorites:

1. A New Hope
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. Attack of The Clones
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Return of The Jedi

It is tough to say that Empire or AOTC is better than the other, but that is how I am leaning right now. TPM and Jedi are a toss up. I gave the nod to TPM because going into the Death Star again is just not all that imaginative and of course the Ewoks weren't all that cool. Plus the battle at the end of TPM is fantastic!

bigbarada
05-20-2002, 11:02 AM
1. AOTC - what I always imagined a Star Wars film should be. However, I wouldn't recomend this as the first SW film for someone who has never seen any of them since the rest would be so visually disappointing. However, if I could only watch one SW film, this would be it. (29 - my age when I first saw it)

2. ESB - I never saw this one in theaters, but on video in 1986. By then the hype was dead and my interests had shifted to GI Joe toys. My first impression was "that was it?" After so many years of reading the story and hearing about how great it was, I was very let down by the actual film. Still, the Battle of Hoth kept it from being a complete disappointment. I rank it as #2 because it is the one movie from the OT that I can watch again and again without getting tired of it (especially with the excellent SE changes - enhanced Hoth battle, opened up Cloud City and the addition of Vader's Shuttle).(13)

3. ANH - The first time I saw this one was it's network TV debut on CBS in 1983. I was blown away. The only reason this one rates so low is it's recent tendency to act as a sleeping pill when I watch it now.(10)

4. TPM - The first SW film I watched on opening day. Totally blew me away in the theaters and I still enjoy watching it at least once a week. It ranks so low because of obvious, but minor IMO, editing flaws and wooden acting. The podrace is still as exciting as ever, though.(27)

5. ROTJ - The only SW film to completely let me down on just about every level. I watched this on the same day I saw ESB for the first time. I was so bored during my first viewing that I kept getting up to go to the bathroom or make a sandwich. The only redeeming factor was the final battle. However, this is the only OT film that I have actually seen in theaters. I caught the last showing of the SE version in 1997 after returning from Bosnia. I was even more bored with it that time, and the SE changes actually managed to lower my opinion of the movie. Again the only redeeming factor is the final battle.(13)

Anyways, that's my list. I tried not to write a novel; but I just have too much to say about SW films. There should be no right or wrong answers in this poll. It's all about personal preference. My brother ranks ROTJ as his favorite and ESB as the worst of the films, so be it. Who am I to say he is wrong for choosing what he likes?

Empirically speaking, yes, ANH has all the necessary elements to make it the best of the films; but that doesn't change the fact that it puts me to sleep everytime I watch it now. The Godfather is considered one of the greatest films of all time and I have watched it ONCE. Sure it was good, but I never want to have to sit through that movie again. So how good can it really be?

Mandalorian Candidat
05-20-2002, 11:03 AM
I think I'm probably the last one to show up at the party, since I just saw AOTC on Sat. I've stayed away from the discussion of the movie until I saw it just because I didn't want to hear about any more damn spoilers.

I've now seen all 5 movies in their original order of release. I saw the OT starting when I was 7 all the way through ROTJ right before I turned 13.

I'm still mulling over how AOTC fits into the quality (or lack thereof) of the other movies so I'm going to do this a little differently. I felt that AOTC lacked so much in the first part of the movie, i.e., dialogue, wit, plot (to an extent), acting, so I have to split it up into two halves. I really didn't like it that much until the scene where Dooku questions OB1 on Geonosis, then it got really good really fast. Therefore, I'm going to rate the movies based on the two halves of AOTC...

First half
1) ESB
2) ANH
3) TPM
4) ROTJ
5) AOTC

Second half
1) ESB
2) ANH
3) AOTC (I would say just a tad lower than ANH)
4) TPM
5) ROTJ

I will say that my opinion may change after I see the movie again. There was a lot to take in for seeing it the first time and my views of the movies have changed over time. I think once the final chapter is released, we'll see the bigger picture and maybe appreciate some of the "slower" parts of the movies more.

ces
05-20-2002, 11:19 AM
This is a hard vote. For me AOTC and ESB are pretty much tied. They are both incredible movies. I think the pacing of Empire is a little better, and I loved the cliffhanger ending. I remember after seeing it how hard it was to wait those next three years for ROTJ. AOTC was so much more exciting. Much better battle scenes and MORE YODA! In the end I place ESB just above clones because it left me really wanting to see the next installment.

My list
1) ESB
2) AOTC
3) ANH
4) ROTJ
5) TPM

P.S. I think all of the Star Wars films are great. I saw ANH in 1977 when I was 5. (The sad thing is now I am horrified when somebody brings a 5-year-old to the movies and sits them next to me.)

underdog25
05-20-2002, 11:26 AM
I will probably be the only one to admit that I voted for TPM over everyother movie. I am 28 now and have seen all of the movies when they first came out. I can remember sitting in the front row of a crowded movie theater to watch ANH and how my neck hurt from looking up at the screen. We waited all afternoon to get into the movie theater to see ESB. I had to see ROTJ in LA (the state) because in central PA they didn't show it because of some big reason which eludes me at this time. TPM was in KS. We waited all day in line and were #2:-) AOTC was in MD. All were great and very tough to decide. I looked at it two ways. The first is from a 4 to 6 year old point of view and which movie was the most eye catching from that point of view. From that point of view the old 3 are just old movies. TPM is the most current and had alot of great scenes, from the 4 to 6 year old point of view. How funny was Jar Jar? How cool was the pod race? How about the final battle? Darth Maul? Very cool picture. I am sure that AOTC will over take my choice but not until I see it a few hundred time:-)

Wonderboy
05-20-2002, 11:59 AM
Dak Powers: Yup, I rank TPM well over Return of the Jedi. TPM might of had JarJar, but at least there were no wookies doing the Tarzan yell...need I say more???

bigbarada
05-20-2002, 12:09 PM
Kudos to underdog25 for having the guts to say that TPM is his favorite. Good to see that some people are voting for how they feel and not how they think they should vote. I know I ranked TPM as #4; but I completely respect your opinion and don't let anyone tell you that you're wrong for it.:cool:

ROTJ suffered from a lack of imagination IMO. Like TPM, it was essentially a remake of ANH; but TPM managed to pull it off while ROTJ fumbled in parts. Again, just my opinion.

drewsj1
05-20-2002, 12:12 PM
1. Empire
2. Jedi
3. New Hope
4. Clones
5. Menace

AOTC was good, but nothing compares to Empire

bigbarada
05-20-2002, 12:26 PM
It seems that someone is stuffing the ballot box to put the OT on top. ANH just gained like 40 votes in the last few minutes.

Amanamike
05-20-2002, 12:52 PM
It's disturbing and disheartening to see such low numbers for ANH. Empirically speaking, ANH is a much stronger film than the others when you look at it's positive attributes across the board. Plot, character development, pacing, dialogue, humor, direction, fx, art direction, sound... There may be specific examples in the other films that may be better, but in terms of "scoring" the film on the whole, ANH far and away is a more solid effort. And besides, it is ANH that is the cause for the rest of the films and the cause for fans in the first place. Without ANH, none of the others would have been made. It can't possibly be so bad as to score just above TPM. That's just crazy. Well, Bush got elected too, so there's no accounting for rational thought.


I totally agree with Stillakid. This is the only movie that could stand alone with out needing sequels. For its time it far outpaced any other movie to come out around it. Star Wars nowadays has much stiffer competition with great Special efects in alot of movies. If A New Hope was the only Star Wars movie to ever come out it could have held up its own story and never need any other movies. Empire Strikes Back even could not do that. If the first movie was ESB we would have all been sitting there going, "WTF??" We woulda been lost. This is the base from which all the rest came to us and in sense we need to put this movie in different class all its own. And I noticed most people still rank Return Of the Jedi last. I can understand this but It did have what I consider the best space battle of all time. I hope the next movie Ep3 can do something to out do that. That would be the icing on the cake!!!! But one thing, we are all very lucky to have all these movies to choose from. Thanks George!!!

JEDIpartner
05-20-2002, 01:34 PM
As a STAR WARS fan since July 1977, I have managed to live without getting TOO caught up in the hype of all the sequel/prequel releases. I have been a spoiler junkie since the day I laid eyes on some Ralph McQuarrie production paintings in the front of STARLOG Magazine back in 1979.

After having seen the newest film, I would have to say that I like it the best. There were such long stretches of "quiet" in the film that helped the plot advance "thoughtfully". This hasn't happened since ESB, yet I feel that the "quiet" portions were better executed here. So with that said, on with the ranking.

1. AOTC (just a tad above ESB!)
2. ESB
3. ANH
4. TPM (yes, really... I totally GOT the set-up aspect of this film)
5. ROTJ (It was because of those pesky little Ewoks. Cute, but TOO cute)

browndroid
05-20-2002, 01:38 PM
AOTC!!
esb
rotj
anh(close race between rotj and anh)

Magic-Middle
05-20-2002, 02:13 PM
I picked Return of the Jedi probably because that was the age I was first able to go to the movies and fully understand the wonders of a Star Wras movie. I have always liked the fact that this movie had an ending and brought many years of excitement to conclusion. Now I did see the first two movies when they were out but did not really understand everything as I was 4 and 8 at the time. I am probably one of the few people not annoyed to no end by the ewoks. Having always been a fan of mythology I can understand the little guy overcoming the giant. I found the final battle on endor and above endor to be very visual. The movie in itself was vivid with color between Jabba's palace and the final battle scenes. My favorite action figure was a result of this movie - The emperor's Royal Guard, it was the second round of Luke & Vader's lightsaber duel and showed just how dark the Emperor was.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I liked this movie best.

yngadult
05-20-2002, 02:58 PM
From favourite to least liked:
1. ESB
2. ANH
3. AOTC
4. ROTJ
5. TPM

I'm 32 and saw ANH in Hong Kong when it first came out. I still remember my first thoughts when I saw the movie for the first time. For example, I wondered if the Jawas were Jedi's when they first appeared because I knew from posters that Jedis had brown robes similar to what the Jawas wore. When Luke appeared for the first time on the farm, I looked for a light saber on his belt, not realizing that he receives it later from Ben.

I was a fan of the Empire because I thought the Stormtroopers looked cool as did the intimidating fleet of battle ship grey destroyers. I recall seeing the Stormtroopers on sale before I knew anything about the movie. I bought them because they looked so cool. I bought Boba Fett before I knew anything about him also because he was cool looking.

ESB got my vote because there was so much action and the introduction of cool figures like Boba Fett & the Snowtrooper. It was cool to me that the Empire won that round as well.

ROTJ & TPM were my least favourite because of Ewoks and Jar Jar respectively. I must say however that the music in TPM was one of the best and Darth Maul was very cool.

AOTC was great, but, the actor who played Anakin either had a bad script, or his acting was poor. I could not see how Amidala would fall in love with a homicidal psychotic. Their connection spoiled the movie for me because it didn't sit right. Anyone in the mental health profession would find his behaviour...concerning.

Needles
05-20-2002, 03:09 PM
Heres my favorites in order

1.Attack Of The Clones
2.Return Of The Jedi
3.A New Hope
4.The Phantom Menace
5.The Empire Strikes Back

I pretty much fell asleep during a viewing of Empire

sunblind
05-20-2002, 03:20 PM
1. AOTC: why?
Yoda. Clones. Mace. Darker Anakin.

2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Star Wars
4. Return Of The Jedi
5. Phantom Menace

Tycho
05-20-2002, 03:34 PM
Just for those concerned about 'ballot stuffing' here.

Since this poll began, Empire took the lead, followed by AOTC. We don't need any ballot stuffing going on, and it hasn't influenced anything.

It seems ANH and ROTJ are splitting their votes in an evil fight for 3rd place. But they are not necessarily there. They might be fighting for 2nd place, or 4th and 5th - this poll won't tell you that.

All this poll is so far telling us is that ESB seems to be the majority's preference. A new poll I'll do later will give all the "next-best" movies a fair shot, by pitting them TPM, AOTC, ANH, ROTJ all against each other. By declaring Empire a winner and taking it out of the mix, people will be free to vote for their "second-favorite." In other words, ESB fans have not had their chance to show their next order of preference. Yet they do seem to be a solid voting block, so Empire fans are definitely influencing things, as that's where the majority is voting.

Note, that's NOT my personal preference, but it was very close for me between Empire and Clones. But I chose Attack of the Clones. It is the most compelling storyline of all of them to me, very quickly followed by Empire. They are both such good movies. AOTC was definitely George's best directing. (Kershner did ESB and did it brilliantly!)

wedgeA
05-20-2002, 03:44 PM
1) Empire- nuff said about this masterpiece. Personally, the first SW film I saw in a theatre (age 6).

2) A New Hope- Gl really captured lightning in a bottle here. The final Death Star trench run is still exciting after many viewings.

3) Attack of the Clones- The most visually ambtious SW film, also, here GL really evolves his storytelling, ababoning the B&W narrative structure (ie good guys vs. bad guys).

4) Return of the Jedi- Great beginning, weaker middle (Ewok Village) However, the ending redeems the movie, the greatest space battle ever, Vader's redemption, and one of the greatest closing scenes, actually improved by the special edition. The addition of Luke shaking Wedge's hand was probably one of the best additions in the SE's.

5) The Phantom Menace- Although it is last on the list, I think it is an underrated film. Provides a good set up for the saga, and the action in the end is solid. Does not deserve the trashing it gets from the fans.

JangoTango
05-20-2002, 03:45 PM
I must agree with the majority that l've seen so far...

best to worst:

1. ESB
2. AOTC*
3. ANH*
4. ROTJ
5. TPM

*I have foreseen that these two will switch places after the newness of AOTC has worn off, although l have now seen it 5 times, and it keeps getting better every time l see it!!

The acting in 'Clones' was, for the most part, 'mildly horrible', but hey, do we go see these with hopes that someone will win best actor next march? I think not. The acting of the peripheral characters and CGI characters far outshone that of our trio of heroes.
Can't wait for III!!!

also- l don't know where hasbro saw him in the movie, but if anyone saw the 'Nikto Jedi' (aka future pegwarmer) in this movie, please, please, please tell me where?

Wookie Boy
05-20-2002, 04:38 PM
I couldn't find Nikto either and I will look hard tonight when I go see it again. But I disagree about the acting. Ewan and Sam do a great job as well as Natalie. Hayden's acting was the only one that was suspect. But I think he did well all things considered.



Originally posted by JangoTango
I must agree with the majority that l've seen so far...

best to worst:

1. ESB
2. AOTC*
3. ANH*
4. ROTJ
5. TPM

*I have foreseen that these two will switch places after the newness of AOTC has worn off, although l have now seen it 5 times, and it keeps getting better every time l see it!!

The acting in 'Clones' was, for the most part, 'mildly horrible', but hey, do we go see these with hopes that someone will win best actor next march? I think not. The acting of the peripheral characters and CGI characters far outshone that of our trio of heroes.
Can't wait for III!!!

also- l don't know where hasbro saw him in the movie, but if anyone saw the 'Nikto Jedi' (aka future pegwarmer) in this movie, please, please, please tell me where?

DarthBrandon
05-20-2002, 04:50 PM
Number one is Empire cause it still rocks from start to finish.
Number two is Attack of the Clones ( Yoda, Clones, Darker plot)
Number Three is ANH the one that started it all ( Good starting Point)
Number four ROTJ cause I thought there was too many Ewok scenes.
Number five TPM way too much Jar Jar but I still enjoyed the film from a kids point of view.

All and all this is how I think the majority of this thread is going to go with ANH fighting with ROTJ for third spot. I may be wrong but that's my opinion.

Darth Spectre
05-20-2002, 04:51 PM
My favorites in order:

1) ESB-The deepest and most shocking of the movies to date. The Vader revelation alone makes it the most powerful. Ep III still has the chance though to equal it though I think.

2) ANH- Still works well, started the whole series and whets your appetite for more.

3) AOTC- Good plot, the showing of Anakin's duality (FINALLY) and great special effects. Dialogue was hard to take between Anakin and Amidala though at times.

4) ROTJ- Still find it hard to believe Vader would come back to the light just for a son he never knew, especially after wiping out most of his brothers-in-arms and betraying his mentor. And those damn Ewoks.

5) TPM- Darth Maul was cool, so was the final light saber duel. Anakin was too young and Obi-Wan was seriously underused.

Rogue II
05-20-2002, 05:31 PM
1. ESB - I thought it was great, even though the drive in started it a little early and some of the hoth scenes were a little hard to see. But I am glad they did start it. I was 7 years old and another 15 min would have been an eternity.

2. ANH (almost #1)-Ahh, to be 4 years old again. Saw it at a drive in theater. Fell asleep when the Falcon escaped the Death Star. When I woke up, my mom told me, "Luke Skywalker flew his ship and blew up the planet." Ended up seeing it again in the theater and stayed awake for it.

3(T). ROTJ/ATOC: I have to see ATOC a few more times before I can say I like to more than ROTJ. ROTJ: Loved the begining, wished the Battle over Endor was better. ATOC: Now we know why Luke called Yoda a "Great Warrior." Battle of Genosis seemed more like a video game than a movie.

5. TPM - I've actually started to like it more lately. The fight between Qui-Gon, Obi-Won and Darth Maul was the best duel in any of the movies so far. The CGI and Jar Jar got annoying. If I was 7 years old, I would have liked it a lot more.

Darth Grifter
05-20-2002, 05:33 PM
The first Star Wars that I saw in the theater was the SE of ANH. When I was younger, my parents didn't like to take me to the theater so...I had to wait until I was in high school to get the full experience of Star Wars in full effect. I had seen all of the movies on VHS and the TV specials all the time when I was little, however, I didn't get the theater experience until I was in HS. I have experienced most of these movies in the theaters with my closest friends and they have all have become near and dear to me heart. Maybe that's why I subscribe to this site and find myself looking for everything Star Wars that I can lay my hands on. ;)

So, the list as per me:

1) AOTC - The Yoda battle, epic fight scenes, evolution of so many favorite characters, and Anakin's darker side (FINALLY). I also feel that this movie, lyrically and musically brought back so many images from my other favorites that I had to vote it top because of the memories and loves that it invoked. I admit fully that it is still in the "New Toy" phase; however, when you look at the revalations made in this movie that are things you always wondered about during the first three, so much more makes sense and is now in my sense memory to think about.

2) ESB - Ok, so yeah, the separation between AOTC and ESB is very slim in my mind; yet the scope of AOTC nails the top spot on my list. ESB has the father / son lightsaber battle, the father / son relationship revealed...and Jedi training...wow!!!

3) ANH - The father of all movies. The beginning of everything that is great about the series. I find myself longing for the classicness of this movie; however, it doesn't have the draw as either AOTC or ESB.

4) TPM - Yes, I am placing this above ROTJ. I liked Phantom Menace for the value of returning me to the universe that expanded my imaginative universe as a kid and then again as a teen. I feel that in many ways it is an inferior movie, however when you think that this IS the beginning. This is the Way everything started...Palpatine taking control, a small planet at the center of everything, a young boy found to be the chosen one, and finally the invention of the double-sided lightsaber. Despite Jar Jar and the Medichlorians bulshevic, it is still a good movie.

5) ROTJ - Placing this movie at #5 doesn't mean that I don't like it and that I don't still watch it all the time. However, it does mean that I got sick of the constant reminder with Ewok TV specials and EWOK movies and EWOK, EWOK, EWOK...It does have great aspects such as the final Father / Son duel and the respect paid by Luke towards Vader with the proper burial...However, I think the constant Ewok-ness wore on me more than anything that Jar Jar could have ever thought about. Plus, TPM has the Podrace. ;)

So, here's my list and most of my reasons. I find myself defending the bottom two more in my mind than anything else and I don't know why...but oh well. This ranking doesn't negate my utter love and respect for this series in every facet and every means. :happy: <--Satisfied Grin...

SithDroid
05-20-2002, 06:21 PM
I voted ESB as my favorite. AOTC is a close second, but the "love" stuff is what hurt it, it just slowed down the movie and made parts of it boring for me, while I could easily watch ESB all day long and not get tired of it, so ANH wins over AOTC. Here is my ranking of the films.

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Attack of the Clones
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace

muskrat
05-20-2002, 07:25 PM
my rankings:

1. Empire Strikes Back - most telling, really expands the universe for the first time, bad guys win..who doesn't like that

2. A New Hope - got us all hooked..enough said

3. Attack Of The Clones - for the first time in 20 years I felt like I was watching a Star Wars movie again, awesome visuals..better story, even though the critics are blasting the love story, i say good for lucas, dont bore me with romance, i can get that anywhere. Just give me what i want....Fights and mandalorian armor

4. Return Of The Jedi - too many muppets, cool visuals, great ending battle sequence (probably the best so far IMO)...but too many muppets

5. The Phantom Menace - Just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie, great looking, I understand what lucas was trying to do, it was a basic intro of characters, as in a novel the first chapters are always dull but they are needed to establish what is to follow, but still not the same feeling, but i dont hate like so many others did

well there is my list..maybe and hopefully that will change May 25th 2005....see you then........

plo kloon
05-20-2002, 09:02 PM
I didn't vote on this one,because I love them all!!I'am an avid fan of star wars I have all the movies(that is all 4).I watch all the specials that are on T.V., I go to the conventions,And I collect star wars merchandise.I just can't get enough star wars!!

JediTricks
05-20-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
...we're going to determine the Best, first.IMO, "best" and "favorite" are not synonymous - especially here. I feel that ESB is the best Star Wars film, but ANH is my favorite and thus got my vote since the topic isn't "Which is the BEST Star Wars movie?".

IMO, this poll isn't really an accurate test of people's true opinions on the matter because Ep 2 is still new to them; I think it'd take at least a few weeks to really have a solid opinion set in. Make it interesting, redo the poll in a month or 2 and see how the results come out.

Imperial Monarche
05-20-2002, 10:20 PM
Ok, it goes like this-
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Attack of the Clones
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace

Reasons-
1. The Empire Strikes Back- the best movie ever made. truly a classic. first of all, the best (maybe not visually pleasing) action sequences of the whole saga. from the attack on hoth to the asteroid field chase to the escape from cloud city. next, the best locations. hoth was ok, but dagobah and cloud city are my two favorite planets in the star wars saga. then, the acting and dialogue are classic. then, the costums are the best. ok, i know i'm rambling bout this, so i'll end with this, the reason this is the best movie- the lightsaber battle between Luke and Vader in the end, it gives me chills everytime. especially when Vader says, "The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."

2. Attack of the Clones- visually the best, and the second best story, next to Empire and the best love story next to Han and Leia, well the only love story. Anakin's performance completely convienced me that he was a good kid gone bad eventually. obi wan was great too and the lightsaber battle reminded me so much of empire's the way they were fighting in the shadows and only the blades gave off light. the only thing i didn't like was the beginning, it just jumped in too quick. other than that, perfect star wars, especially the Death Star at the end. it also got back to the original star wars methods of staying in one scene for more than just five minutes.

3. A New Hope- it started it all and showed us a different universe. even though it can get a little slow, at times, the fight to get out of the Death Star is wonderful. and, who can argue with how cool the cantina is and the battle of Yavin.

4. Return of the Jedi- this one tends to be on the slower side, but still an excellent movie. the final battle is probably the best battle of the whole saga so far. the lightsaber battle, while not as good as ESB or ATOC, it still has impact, especially when the Emperor shoots off electricity from his hand (another scene in AOTC that gave me chills when Dooku does the same)

5. The Phantom Menace- even though the celebrated worse film of star wars, my reasons for it being my least favorite are because it didn't feel like a star wars film. jar jar was, sorry, funny. anakin, even though a terrible actor, was cute. the action sequences were good, but not long enough. the lightsaber battle was awesome, but again not long enough and Darth Maul seemed to remind me of a ballot dancer and these are the reasons why that movie was good, but it wasn't like a star wars, or traditional. the scenes shifted to quick and it seemed like a kiddy movie. obi-wan and qui-gon were the only thing like an original star wars and i thought the story was great, like the way they set up for Palpatine to take over.

those still happen to be my top 5 favorite movies.

LusiferSam
05-20-2002, 11:14 PM
Ok here's my list:
1. Return of the Jedi
2. Star Wars
3. Attack of the Clones
4. Phantom Menace
5. The Empire Strikes Back

SW and ROTJ are in a real close tie for first place for me. But ROTJ saw the only one of the original trilogy I saw in theaters when first came out. I saw SW in a re-release and all of them for the SE release. AOTC has much better story then TPM, but the TPM has the best lightsaber duel (sorry the Jedi rescue is not a duel). The ESB duel is great and so is the AOTC duel, but nothing to the TPM one. I never liked ESB all that much. It's a great movie and I enjoy it, but some one had to be last.

Wolfwood319
05-20-2002, 11:27 PM
1. ESB
2. ANH
3. AOTC
4. TPM
5. ROTJ

ROTJ used to be my favorite as a kid. Now the only part I like is the Luke/Vader duel at the end. The rest is a little too cheesy for me now. I give a nod to AOTC for the most complex story though. But of course TPM helps that, where as ANH was written to stand alone.

I see TPM, AOTC, and SW3 each as 1/3rd of a story, whereas ANH is one story together, and then ESB and ROTJ are 2 halves of the last story.

bigbarada
05-21-2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks
IMO, "best" and "favorite" are not synonymous - especially here. I feel that ESB is the best Star Wars film, but ANH is my favorite and thus got my vote since the topic isn't "Which is the BEST Star Wars movie?".


I agree, best brings up an entirely different set of criteria. I chose my favorite at this time, which has a tendency to change; but given the amazing scope of AOTC, I doubt it will change very soon.

If I was choosing the best Star Wars movie then ANH wins hands down simply because it did everything right and is the reason that every other Star Wars movie exists. However, I credit ESB with making Star Wars a phenomenon. If ESB was terrible, then ANH would have been considered simply a fluke and largely forgotten in the anals of movie history.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I agree, best brings up an entirely different set of criteria. I chose my favorite at this time, which has a tendency to change; but given the amazing scope of AOTC, I doubt it will change very soon.

If I was choosing the best Star Wars movie then ANH wins hands down simply because it did everything right and is the reason that every other Star Wars movie exists. However, I credit ESB with making Star Wars a phenomenon. If ESB was terrible, then ANH would have been considered simply a fluke and largely forgotten in the anals of movie history.


I agree entirely. The sophomore effort is generally the key to anyone's success. ANH caught everyone off guard and did something that no one had ever done on film before. If Empire had wavered even a little bit, the success would have been as fleeting as a Frankie Goes to Hollywood Reunion Tour.

Looking at it this way, I can't really point to a "favorite" film as each of them have elements that I really like, and each have elements that I believe could be better.

The Tatooine sequence in ANH does drag a bit, but after Mos Eisley the pace is perfect.

I've always believed that the Hoth battle could have been much much better than it was, but the movie was saved by the Luke/Vader duel.

The entire first half of ROTJ was nothing more than an Expanded Universe story blown up onto the big screen, but once we're past that and back into the real story, I enjoy everything put in front of me, including the Ewoks.

TPM. Well, TPM was like the bastard child who almost made it. All the elements were there to make it a great movie, but they were just jumbled up into an incoherent mess. However, on the positive side, the production design was new and interesting and the final lightsaber fight was incredible.

AOTC doesn't have the heart of any of the OT films, but the political intrigue that it tries to introduce is worthy of notice. It is a little cheesy in ways that don't compare to any of the other SW films, but it's action sequences are compelling enough to live up to Lucas's mantra: "Faster, more intense!" He is quoted as saying once that he keeps the action moving fast enough that the audience won't notice that the characters aren't drawn well enough. Something like that anyway. The problem is that the audience has grown up and has grown more savvy. We can't be fooled anymore by rapid editing and a furious pace (well, some of us anyway :rolleyes: )

Tycho
05-21-2002, 01:58 AM
I am agreeing with JediTricks:

the poll is good for now though. 'Favorite' does imply what we are caught up in the moment with.

Right now, ANH is the last movie I want to watch (save for the fact that the Hasbro movie makes me want to watch ANH again already). Sometimes that movie is my favorite. It usually is Empire, but sometimes it has been Jedi.

AOTC is my current 'favorite.'

JediTricks, I think we should wait about a YEAR after the DVD release of AOTC. THEN see what everybody says is the BEST SW film.

Right now, we are all caught up in the moment, so follow the poll question as it is written, and choose your favorite.

Think of it as "which SW movie can you watch over and over again right now?" - and get the most entertainment out of it.

I also like seeing Vader at the Emperor's side in ROTJ, that you don't get in any other Classic Trilogy movie. So sometimes I pop Jedi into the VCR to recapture that moment.

Let me clarify, I pop the ROTJ video tape in the VCR. Putting your Jedi action figures in there will probably break the machine. SSG strongly discourages that. Kit Fisto's tentacles might get caught on something and then you won't be able to watch any of your OT movies...

That would be bad, wouldn't it?

stillakid
05-21-2002, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Tycho

Think of it as "which SW movie can you watch over and over again right now?" - and get the most entertainment out of it.


I've found that to make TPM go down easier, it helps to watch the CBS Holiday Special straight through without bathroom breaks (to puke). Nothing helps make bad writing look better than worse writing.


Originally posted by Tycho

Let me clarify, I pop the ROTJ video tape in the VCR. Putting your Jedi action figures in there will probably break the machine. SSG strongly discourages that. Kit Fisto's tentacles might get caught on something and then you won't be able to watch any of your OT movies...

That would be bad, wouldn't it?

LOL!!!!!

bigbarada
05-21-2002, 10:27 AM
If I am to use Tycho's criteria (which movie I can watch over and over again right now) then the rankings change:

1. AOTC
2. TPM
3. ESB
4. ROTJ
5. ANH

What can I say, I'm a sucker for a pretty picture.:)

Pendo
05-21-2002, 03:07 PM
Although AOTC was a great movie, TESB is still by far the best of the trilogy!!! It has everything:
action,
romance,
strong plot,
great characters,
etc...

My movie ranking is:
ESB
ANH
AOTC
ROTJ
TPM

PENDO!

stillakid
05-21-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Pendo
Although AOTC was a great movie, TESB is still by far the best of the trilogy!!! It has everything:
action,
romance,
strong plot,
great characters,
etc...
PENDO!

...except that it isn't a stand alone story. ANH has everything you describe plus the added benefit of not needing anything else to prop it up.:)

Pendo
05-21-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
...except that it isn't a stand alone story. ANH has everything you describe plus the added benefit of not needing anything else to prop it up.:)

True, but ANH needed to introduce all the characters. In ESB, most of the characters have been introduced so the story can develop further without needing to introduce everyone again.

Also, I don't connect with ANH the same way I did ESB. I wasn't a Star Wars fan until I'd seen ESB, my first thought of ANH was that's rubish (putting it mildly). It wasn't until I saw ESB that I really liked Star Wars so it'll always have a special place in my heart :).

PENDO!

mark2d2
05-21-2002, 03:31 PM
1) Empire Strikes Back (This one will never be beat. Flawless.)
2) A New Hope (Nobody forgets their very first time. So much fun!)
3) Attack of the Clones (Spectacular return to form by Lucas! Bravo!)
4) Return of the Jedi (Yep, those Ewoks really are starting to Grate . . . )

and lastly WAYYYYYYYY down at the bottom

5) The Phantom Menace (Yikes! What happened? Pretty much the only thing I like is the Senate. And --- of course --- Amidala's wardrobe . . . )

stillakid
05-21-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
1) Empire Strikes Back (This one will never be beat. Flawless.)


Flawless? Umm....

mark2d2
05-21-2002, 04:19 PM
From the stand point of a writer, this film never falters. The dialogue is sharp. I challenge you to show a bad line of dialogue.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2
From the stand point of a writer, this film never falters. The dialogue is sharp. I challenge you to show a bad line of dialogue.

This is why the term "creative differences" came into being. :)

From another writer, ESB could have been much better than it was. In particular, the Hoth battle sequence. Instead of engaging the audience emotionally in full blown conventional warfare, we are left instead to listening to Luke talk to himself for 10 minutes. Lines like, "Stay tight and low" "Watch that crossfire boys" etc drones on and on with little to no "chatter" from the rest of the pilots.

For a specific example of poor dialogue, Dack tells Luke, "Luke, I have no approach vector, I'm not set." Luke replies, "Just hang on Dack. Hang on and get ready to fire that tow cable." Huh!? The kid just got done telling Luke that he had no coordinates to make a successful shot. Luke ignores him and tells him to get ready to fire anyway. What's that all about?

The bigger issue is in regards to the way the entire sequence was directed. As I mentioned, instead of engaging us emotionally, the events transpire on the screen as if it were a dispassionate newsreel. Not a big coincidence being that director Irwin Kershner is a Canadian. If you know anything about the Canadian film style, it is typically of the documentary tradition. That's what he gave us. What would have made it far better would have been an awesome ground battle. They went to the trouble of setting up WWII trench style warfare but didn't utilize it. Imagine swarms of Stormtroopers jumping into the trenches engaging in hand to hand combat. Lots of wide lenses to put the audience in the action. Instead we got Luke talking to himself.

But to be fair, I think that the best moment in the entire saga comes in Ep V. When Yoda explains the Force to Luke after he fails to bring up the X-Wing. That entire scene is stunningly beautiful. The set dressing, the music, the cinematography, the writing. If anything was flawless, that scene was it. And the topper was Yoda's final line, "That is why you fail." The music swells up into the Imperial March and we're out. Awesome. But all that will change now with the Midichlorian's in the picture. sigh.

mark2d2
05-21-2002, 05:07 PM
Luke is making a mistake in battle. It . . . uh . . . happens all the time.

Actually, I think most of the things you find missing are due to Lucas --- and not Kershner. (Lucas was constantly complaining about the budget.) Besides, there would be no logic in having the troopers storm the trenches. The AT AT technology reigns supreme and obliterates the Rebels before such a move is necessary.

At any rate, you're pretty much alone on this issue. Check the poll.

JediTricks
05-21-2002, 07:34 PM
I think by the time the DVD is out, most folks will have already made up their minds. If anything, asking the question again right before the DVD release is probably going to be the best way to do judge the film ON IT'S OWN MERITS rather than relying on cut-scenes, documentaries, and commentary tracks explaining what they meant to do in this scene or that.


Stilla, I have a question for you, are you "emotionally invested" in either Ep 1 or Ep 2? I notice that you have a lot to say - and especially discuss - about those 2 even though you come down on them in more general terms (and I'm not arguing here, just asking). If so, are you invested in their reflection on the original trilogy, or are you actually invested in the films themselves? I mean, a lot of folks could pick ID4 apart on the forums, but don't because the film has no real meaning to them.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I think by the time the DVD is out, most folks will have already made up their minds. If anything, asking the question again right before the DVD release is probably going to be the best way to do judge the film ON IT'S OWN MERITS rather than relying on cut-scenes, documentaries, and commentary tracks explaining what they meant to do in this scene or that.


Stilla, I have a question for you, are you "emotionally invested" in either Ep 1 or Ep 2? I notice that you have a lot to say - and especially discuss - about those 2 even though you come down on them in more general terms (and I'm not arguing here, just asking). If so, are you invested in their reflection on the original trilogy, or are you actually invested in the films themselves? I mean, a lot of folks could pick ID4 apart on the forums, but don't because the film has no real meaning to them.

Interesting question. Hmm? At this time, I'd have to answer "no," I don't feel emotionally invested in Ep I or II. I don't feel like they were written to allow for that kind of "feeling." I get the sense that GL felt the need to "deliver" a significant amount of setup information and either forgot to or didn't know how to construct the stories in a way that involved the audience in something other than an intellectual level.

Is this viewpoint a reflection of the original trilogy? I have no option but to answer yes to that, as I have seen the original movies. There's no way to somehow block out my "feelings" about those movies completely. I can separate the specifics of plot structure, the elements that are used to create the story, and the directorial style used to evoke varying responses from an audience and critique them individuallly (good or bad), but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't comparing each film against all of the others. That goes for OT films against each other, not just prequel films vs OT.

This is a major epic and for a writer to keep the ducks in a row isn't an easy task. One of my favorite examples of a rousing continuity success is the Back to the Future Trilogy. What a mess that could have been, but I presume through meticulous writing, it all held together perfectly.

The OT films did that as well. Not a bad effort considering that each script was written as needed, not all at once. Shoot forward 20 years and Lucas has been away from his notes for awhile. From a writing/continuity standpoint, he put himself at a distinct disadvantage by starting in the middle because things that might make the "prequels" better, could ruin the "later" films that have already been made. Had he begun at Number 1, the "Original Trilogy" films would be vastly different from what we grew to love.

As you've mentioned, AOTC is too new for me to judge it on that level. I wanted to like TPM because I loved the OT films so much, but I was forced into an intellectual evaluation because it failed to draw me in emotionally. AOTC is riding the line for me at the moment, but I've only seen it twice. There's A LOT going on onscreen. I need more time...

Did that answer the question? I'm not sure...

JediTricks
05-21-2002, 10:46 PM
I think you've answered that just fine. I asked because for me, even though I've yet to see Ep 2 again (too broke), I don't even feel invested enough to really discuss or argue the film at all - not even invested in its role in the whole saga. You might notice that my Ep 2 forum posts are fairly low in number, when I read that section, I don't even feel like jumping into conversations or arguments about it now that I've seen it. I noticed you still really post quite passionately about both prequels even though you seem to dislike them as SW movies, and was wondering if you and I differ in that respect.

stillakid
05-21-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
I think you've answered that just fine. I asked because for me, even though I've yet to see Ep 2 again (too broke), I don't even feel invested enough to really discuss or argue the film at all - not even invested in its role in the whole saga. You might notice that my Ep 2 forum posts are fairly low in number, when I read that section, I don't even feel like jumping into conversations or arguments about it now that I've seen it. I noticed you still really post quite passionately about both prequels even though you seem to dislike them as SW movies, and was wondering if you and I differ in that respect.

Funny you asked that question today. Just a few hours ago, it occurred to me that I really haven't much more to say about AOTC. I got my bitcin' out about the corny Dawson's Creek dialogue, the weird pacing, and the strange plot holes. Then my thoughts drifted over to the whole Sypho Dyas (sp?) question, which appears impossible to answer until 3 years from now. The only place to go is into speculation about what could occur in Ep III and more importantly (to me) what I'd like to see happen in III. But I did that as well. I liked Tycho's outline for the most part. We've been through TPM already, and I think I've already talked about the stuff that I did like in AOTC.

I realized that there seems to be a dead-end as far as Prequel discussion goes. I was just considering hanging out in the Toys forums for awhile until something new and unexpected hits me. Until then, I'm getting a bit weary of looking at these stories with such a fine toothed comb. It's a bit exhausting. It's time to devote more energy into my own work so that perhaps one day I can have my own devoted fans rip me to shreds. ;)

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
But to be fair, I think that the best moment in the entire saga comes in Ep V. When Yoda explains the Force to Luke after he fails to bring up the X-Wing. That entire scene is stunningly beautiful. The set dressing, the music, the cinematography, the writing. If anything was flawless, that scene was it. And the topper was Yoda's final line, "That is why you fail." The music swells up into the Imperial March and we're out. Awesome. But all that will change now with the Midichlorian's in the picture. sigh.

That's the "time to go make a sandwich" scene for me. Totally boring. The Force never really interested me as a kid, I was much more interested in Han and Chewie's adventures.

I was never emotionally invested in the whole Jedi/Luke's Journey aspect of the OT at all, it was all rubbish to me. In fact I hated Luke as a kid. Which is why I think the whole midichlorian thing is really no big deal and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the saga one bit.

I do agree with your points about the Hoth battle centering too much on Luke. AOTC is the way to do a giant sweeping ground battle.

Wolfwood319
05-22-2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


That's the "time to go make a sandwich" scene for me. Totally boring. The Force never really interested me as a kid, I was much more interested in Han and Chewie's adventures.

I was never emotionally invested in the whole Jedi/Luke's Journey aspect of the OT at all, it was all rubbish to me. In fact I hated Luke as a kid. Which is why I think the whole midichlorian thing is really no big deal and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the saga one bit.

I do agree with your points about the Hoth battle centering too much on Luke. AOTC is the way to do a giant sweeping ground battle.

I was the same way. My favorite aspects of the OT were the adventures of Han and Chewie, and scenes like the cantina, Jabba's Palace, etc., where we got glimpses of the seedy underworld/crime world of the Empire-era Star Wars.

Its only now, with the prequels and their vast numbers of Jedi, that I'm interested in the Force, Jedi, etc.

I always thought that the Hoth battle was a little too centered around Luke, but then again, so does the whole movie (practically.)

I'm actually starting to like the prequels more now than the OT. I watch TPM and then AOTC back-to-back, and get much more of a "feel" for the whole setup. Again, there are problems with filmaking when you "Know" you have 2 more movies to do as well, so the story really is split in 3 parts. But now we have 2 out of 3, and new questions are being asked, and the story is developing much more complex than I had originally thought.

The whole Palpatine/Senate/Sith/"playing both sides" aspect of the films are really starting to become my favorite part of the whole saga.

stillakid
05-22-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


That's the "time to go make a sandwich" scene for me. Totally boring. The Force never really interested me as a kid, I was much more interested in Han and Chewie's adventures.

I was never emotionally invested in the whole Jedi/Luke's Journey aspect of the OT at all, it was all rubbish to me. In fact I hated Luke as a kid. Which is why I think the whole midichlorian thing is really no big deal and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of the saga one bit.

I do agree with your points about the Hoth battle centering too much on Luke. AOTC is the way to do a giant sweeping ground battle.


I absolutely love the "time to go make a sandwich" critique! It totally gets the point across in plain ol' language.

That should be a thread of it's own. Not just for SW films but for any movie. What scenes or whole movies are good for getting a sandwich in the kitchen?

Your outlook on the Luke storyline is interesting (considering that that was what the OT mostly centered on). What was it then about SW that drew you in?

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 12:30 AM
I love how the sides aren't evenly divided between good and evil in the PT. We have many different factions all working for and against each other. The whole "political turmoil" aspect of the PT makes it much more interesting to me than the OT.

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by stillakid



I absolutely love the "time to go make a sandwich" critique! It totally gets the point across in plain ol' language.

That should be a thread of it's own. Not just for SW films but for any movie. What scenes or whole movies are good for getting a sandwich in the kitchen?

Thanks, maybe I should coin that phrase. Okay, maybe not.:) If you want to start a thread based on the "sandwich" phrase, be my guest.


Originally posted by stillakid

Your outlook on the Luke storyline is interesting (considering that that was what the OT mostly centered on). What was it then about SW that drew you in?

The action figures. Seriously. I collected the toys for about five years before I ever saw any of the films. Which is why the OT was such a disappointment to me as a kid. After so many years of anticipation, anything would be. In fact seeing ROTJ for the first time was the last nail in the coffin for my Star Wars fanaticism. By then I had already moved on to GI Joe and watching that movie just reinforced the idea that I had made the right decision. The OT films were always substandard to me, which is why I am so delighted by the direction the PT is taking.

2-1B
05-22-2002, 03:30 AM
I completely agree with JT that we can differentiate between "best" and "favorite". I'd say Empire is probably my choice as "best", while Clones is far and away my favorite! :)

No, that has nothing to do with its newness. I came out of TPM thinking it was fun but I never considered it as having "favorite" potential. Now Clones is a different story, I was drawn in immediately by Ewan and Hayden and I've never been so emotionally invested in a SW film.

stillakid - Dawson's Creek dialogue? Couldn't comment, never watched that show. ;)

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 04:33 AM
Like Caesar, I walked out of my first viewing of TPM thinking, "That was pretty good, I like it; but ESB is still my favorite so far."

With AOTC I walked out thinking, "Now THIS is a Star Wars film!" Ep2 blew me away far beyond what I expected and I guess I now know how many felt walking out of their first theatrical viewing of ANH or ESB. AOTC is my favorite, not because it is the new kid on the block, but because it has everything I ever wanted to see in a SW film. The acting was nowhere near as bad IMO as your typical teen flick (Scream, 13 Ghosts, IKWYDLS, Fast and the Furious, A Knight's Tale {ughh, what a horrible piece of crap that was}).

stormie
05-22-2002, 01:08 PM
ANH is my favorite without a doubt. I couldn't even begin to rank the other four (haven't seen AOTC yet), since they all have their good and bad, time-to-make-a-sandwich points. ;)

For me, ANH is filled with youthful optimisim, new worlds and adventures, and a live-by-the-seat-of-your-pants drama the other films just don't have. Best part of the movie for me? Luke's instant transformation from boy to man as he looks away from his surrogate parents' charred bodies, only to force himself to look again and remember what has happened.

Lord Tenebrous
05-22-2002, 02:19 PM
(Based on first version of the each film)


1. Empire. It was bold, it expanded on the original, and it didn't have a Hollywood-style ending. Leia and Han played a very strong contrast to the skilled-but-confused Luke. We end up feeling bad for them all, in different, wonderful ways.

2. A New Hope. It was a nice opening chapter into the universe. Sparse, but imaginative, fun, but dramatic. But it still needed to be tighter, in some scenes the drama is lost when, as the scene progresses, you realize that a Stormtrooper really can't hit a target.

3. The Phantom Menace. Set out to make characters that conflicted against our views of the originals. To center a movie around a child is danger enough, but Lucas actually managed to turn a social outcast into a hero...and make it believeable. Qui-Gon is the rogue this time out, something he seems to take a great pride in.

4. Return of the Jedi. The movie is great until Han is unfrozen. Then it becomes a series of clean-cut conclusions and revelations. The Emperor is the standout here, and Han and Leia still give good performances.

5. Attack of the Clones. Sort of like watching a CG reel in between stage performances. Mostly cold, but some highlights, like Dexter Jettster and Taun We.

JediTricks
05-22-2002, 05:13 PM
Stilla, isn't that a weird feeling? I mean, with Ep 1, I could be on the forums discussing different aspects of it for HOURS at a time even though I knew from the first midnight showing that I didn't like it. But with Ep 2, I don't feel like there's much drawing me in or anything worth discussing (beyond the Sifo Dyas issue, which you'll notice, I did indeed post on in there :D)... and it's like a burden on my SW fandom to have little or no connection to this film.

stillakid
05-22-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, isn't that a weird feeling? I mean, with Ep 1, I could be on the forums discussing different aspects of it for HOURS at a time even though I knew from the first midnight showing that I didn't like it. But with Ep 2, I don't feel like there's much drawing me in or anything worth discussing (beyond the Sifo Dyas issue, which you'll notice, I did indeed post on in there :D)... and it's like a burden on my SW fandom to have little or no connection to this film.


I talked to my neighbor last night about the movie for a little bit. He was quite impressed with every aspect of it. When I brought up my concerns, he looked at me as if I were a) nuts and b) as if I were being too overcritical of the entire thing. I suppose that's possible. But I'm starting to feel that "burden" as well. It is a weird feeling.

You brought up Independence Day before. I don't feel any need or desire to tear that apart despite it's obvious plot holes and other conveniences. I love it nonetheless.

I think that I'm critical of the Prequels because I expect a certain level of quality from this saga using A New Hope as the baseline for comparison. It only seems fair, being that it is the first one out of the gates and it set the tone for what a "Star Wars movie" should be. I keep reading other comments from SSGer's saying how AOTC is what they always thought a Star Wars movie should be. Seems kind of strange to me. That's like saying that if DaVinci started drawing cartoons after everything else he did, then cartoons are what you always thought a DaVinci should be.

AOTC is different. It's a Star Wars movie for sure. It's got the stuff that looks like Star Wars in it and some of the characters hearken back to the beginning. But using A New Hope as the standard, AOTC doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie for some reason that I can't put my finger on. Perhaps it's because Lucas managed to make us care about Luke, Han, Leia, Chewy, the Droids, and Vader in the OT while in the midst of telling us a story that was larger than any single one of them. TPM and AOTC somehow aren't getting to the heart of the characters in a way that makes me want to care about them. The individual stories are getting lost amidst a cascade of galactic events. Even the love story, in which he pulled the two characters out of the flow of the plot, fails to convince me of their emotions for one another.

Over the course of three movies, the attraction between Han and Leia was evident and I actually cared about their feelings. In fact, most of the attraction was portrayed almost entirely in just one of the films, that being ESB.

We've seen Anakin and Padme now in two movies and despite GL's efforts, I'm not "feeling" the romance the way I did with Han and Leia.

Beyond a superficial kind of "excitement" at seeing the action scenes, ships flying around, guys shooting each other, lightsaber fights (all of that is very cool), but TPM and AOTC aren't quite drawing me in the way the OT did.

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Stilla, isn't that a weird feeling? I mean, with Ep 1, I could be on the forums discussing different aspects of it for HOURS at a time even though I knew from the first midnight showing that I didn't like it. But with Ep 2, I don't feel like there's much drawing me in or anything worth discussing (beyond the Sifo Dyas issue, which you'll notice, I did indeed post on in there :D)... and it's like a burden on my SW fandom to have little or no connection to this film.

Honestly I am not really surprised by your reaction, JT. In fact I kind of expected it. In any case, no offense, but it sounds like more of a personal issue than any fault of the movie.

BTW, I just checked out you webpage for the first time. Awesome EP1 wallpapers! Especially for someone who didn't like the movie.;) Any chances on you making some EP2 wallpapers? Especially an opening crawl one? That would be cool.

Here's a Battle of Geonosis wallpaper I made based on screenshots from the last trailer. I used Microsoft Paint so there are no special effects or anything. What do you think?

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


That's like saying that if DaVinci started drawing cartoons after everything else he did, then cartoons are what you always thought a DaVinci should be.


Who knows? Maybe if DaVinci actually did draw some cartoons then I would actually like his work.:) As it stands he was definitely not the most talented of the artists from the Renaissance days IMO. I liked Michealangelo's work better, but even his work was not as good as other less reknowned, more talented artists.

Tycho
05-22-2002, 07:59 PM
Stillakid, we finally disagree on something again, LOL. (maybe have different interpretations on it is a better way of putting it though...)

I think the fact that the story about Luke, Leia, and Han seemed larger than any of them was because we are seeing that story unfold now.

We are seeing movies about things that Luke, and Leia, and to a large degree Han, know nothing about. They were never told this, but were just discovering clues on it - some that Luke had to give up his whole right hand for.

In fact, none of them ever really learn how Palpatine climbed to power (unless Leia learned that from her adopted father). And if the larger story is how Anakin and Padme came to love each other, and everything that was good about it was twisted to turn Anakin evil, than they (Luke and Leia) certainly know nothing about that. Han wouldn't either.

But some of that is echoed in the prequels though: Anakin and Padme have no idea that Palpatine is manipulating everything. If anyone does learn, it will be Padme. I don't know if Anakin ever figures it out. He might buy some line of Palpatine's that the Sith are instruments of justice. Who knows? Whatever Anakin learns, it will be too late for him to turn back until Luke enters his life.

But the characters are still a part of a larger wolrd. Only Luke and Leia take their first steps towards enlightenment. LOL, following the Battle of Endor, when Han's kissing Leia, we know that HE still doesn't have a clue about any of it! Too funny.

But maybe I caught on to something there?

Nice pic BigBarada :D - thanks for sharing.

JediTricks
05-22-2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
You brought up Independence Day before. I don't feel any need or desire to tear that apart despite it's obvious plot holes and other conveniences. I love it nonetheless.Heh, sorry about that, first film that popped into my head that doesn't have a big web following. I actually enjoyed it on the "popcorn" level quite a bit, but I generally don't really feel the desire to discuss the film at all.


Originally posted by stillakid
I keep reading other comments from SSGer's saying how AOTC is what they always thought a Star Wars movie should be. Seems kind of strange to me. That's like saying that if DaVinci started drawing cartoons after everything else he did, then cartoons are what you always thought a DaVinci should be.I wish I were as articulate about this as you, that is an excellet point and I totally agree.


Originally posted by stillakid
AOTC is different. It's a Star Wars movie for sure. It's got the stuff that looks like Star Wars in it and some of the characters hearken back to the beginning. But using A New Hope as the standard, AOTC doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie for some reason that I can't put my finger on. Perhaps it's because Lucas managed to make us care about Luke, Han, Leia, Chewy, the Droids, and Vader in the OT while in the midst of telling us a story that was larger than any single one of them. TPM and AOTC somehow aren't getting to the heart of the characters in a way that makes me want to care about them. The individual stories are getting lost amidst a cascade of galactic events. Even the love story, in which he pulled the two characters out of the flow of the plot, fails to convince me of their emotions for one another.

Over the course of three movies, the attraction between Han and Leia was evident and I actually cared about their feelings. In fact, most of the attraction was portrayed almost entirely in just one of the films, that being ESB.

We've seen Anakin and Padme now in two movies and despite GL's efforts, I'm not "feeling" the romance the way I did with Han and Leia.

Beyond a superficial kind of "excitement" at seeing the action scenes, ships flying around, guys shooting each other, lightsaber fights (all of that is very cool), but TPM and AOTC aren't quite drawing me in the way the OT did. I'm starting to put my finger on what feels so different about AOTC, let me try to express it here. 2 issues you just brought up are the 2 reasons that come to mind actually:
1) The "love story" is just not convincing, it's written like a Wal-Mart romance mini-novel (the women in my family read and write all sorts of romance novels, I try to avoid at all costs :D) - these 2 characters have NOTHING in common beyond a few days of light interaction when they were kids and then BOOM, they're falling in love. No real reasons, it just happens so it can be convenient to the plot.

2) The OT and even TPM told the story from the individual characters persepctive, we were more like a holocam droid following a group of people throughout galactic events. AOTC has less of this, it's more about showing the galactic events than the people living through them. The speeder chase is a good example of this, in ROTJ, we follow Luke and Leia as they have dialog about the situation and then when Leia gets lost, we see the concern Luke has for her. In AOTC, the focus is more on the traffic and environment than the characters, and we never really see reactions of the characters; instead we just fly the "camera" around the CGI city and briefly look at the aliens noticing the chase.

It's the same issue in the Geonosis battle, we get to see a lot of troops and big ships and masses of troops, but we rarely get in close to the main characters and how it's affecting them.

This also taints my opinion of TPM's final saber battle. In the first saber battle, QGJ vs DM in the Tatooine desert, you get a better sense of how this battle is affecting Ani and how concerned and confused Qui-Gon is, yet in the last saber battle, there seems to be nothing but sabers clashing until the end - no dialog, no look of nervousness on Maul's face as he starts to lose ground, no yells of intention to put the Sith lord off his guard. This is what I mean by "hollow", there's too little personal attachment, too little simple honest context.



Originally posted by bigbarada
Honestly I am not really surprised by your reaction, JT. In fact I kind of expected it. In any case, no offense, but it sounds like more of a personal issue than any fault of the movie.I don't think it's a "personal issue" the way you mean, I think it's more a fault of Lucas' massive change of perspective over the past 20 years - the prequels, and Lucas' vision, no longer seem to represent what Star Wars was about when it was created. Lucas' mantra used to be that special f/x should only be a tool to tell a story, but he doesn't seem to feel that way any more, and he certainly doesn't spout that opinion like he used to.


Originally posted by bigbarada
BTW, I just checked out you webpage for the first time. Awesome EP1 wallpapers! Especially for someone who didn't like the movie.;) Any chances on you making some EP2 wallpapers? Especially an opening crawl one? That would be cool.

Here's a Battle of Geonosis wallpaper I made based on screenshots from the last trailer. I used Microsoft Paint so there are no special effects or anything. What do you think? Glad you like my wallpapers, I made them before Ep 1 actually came out, when I still had hope for the film. :crazed: I found some really nice trailer stills and was able to cut them up nicely, and found a spoiler of the opening crawl and made that by hand (using the originals as a guideline and a very blurry video tape of the Ep 1 opening crawl from some commercial). The opening crawl one was VERY difficult to make because of the colors and shapes of letters, but I still get a lot of compliments about that series even today (and a LOT of requests for classic trilogy versions, which if I ever get time and some good vidcaps of, I will definitely do).

I have less free time than I did 3 years ago, and so I don't really do wallpapers anymore. I did a few from Ep 2 when the official site first had new images up on their main page, but then they went and did official versions and the film's title was confirmed to be different from what I thought, so I threw in the towel. With the QT trailer still out there, I probably will end up doing a "crawl" series along with the OT ones I mentioned above, but I need to get a little more on top of things before I do.

Your wallpaper is pretty cool, though I'm so nerdy about things that I'd have spent hours editing those SW.com logos out if I had made it. :D It definitely speaks volumes about the battle and Geonosis itself, and probably lends itself to the "color" of the film (slightly more rusty than the tan of ANH). One thing I'd suggest is leaving a little more open space for desktop icons to go so you don't end up just covering up the pictures.

bigbarada
05-22-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Your wallpaper is pretty cool, though I'm so nerdy about things that I'd have spent hours editing those SW.com logos out if I had made it. :D It definitely speaks volumes about the battle and Geonosis itself, and probably lends itself to the "color" of the film (slightly more rusty than the tan of ANH). One thing I'd suggest is leaving a little more open space for desktop icons to go so you don't end up just covering up the pictures.

I had thought about trying to edit out those logos but didn't have the programs necessary to accomplish it without doing it one pixel at a time. Which would have been too much like work.:) I hadn't really thought about the empty space for desktop icons ( I usually only keep 7 or 8 icons on my desktop, never more than ten or one vertical row); but I do appreciate the suggestion.

Tycho
05-22-2002, 10:46 PM
JediTricks, I totally disagree that AOTC was less personal story telling.

In the speeder chase for example, we learn that Anakin has better knowledge of the city than Obi-Wan does, and better foresight - he knows exactly where Zam will be.

We know he doesn't feel there's time or it's necessary to explain everything to Obi-Wan. He just agrees with him, tired of a debate, than jumps out of the speeder in mid-air.

You see this proven in front of the bar. Obi-Wan gives him a ton of criticisms and instructions, and you can see Anakin's heard it before, he's just agreeing so Obi-Wan will stop the lesson as quickly as possible.

The love story and the experiences of Anakin and Padme during "agressive negotiations" as well as that of Mace Windu even, and a certain bounty hunter, are focused on during the Arena Battle. Then in the ground war after that, it is personal when Padme falls out of a gunship, because Obi-Wan and Anakin get lucky and spot Count Dooku on his speeder rushing towards his ship hanger.

It seems I've countered your points.

see3poman
05-22-2002, 11:39 PM
I think it's sooo cool that AOTC is such a fan fave! Finally we have the movie that we've been waiting 19 years for! I loved AOTC! Saw it opening day, and going back tomorrow for a second course. TPM was a bore! It had a few good points, but didn't compare in style and heart and acting to the original trilogy.
So why is Jedi getting such low votes? It's a great flick! 'Cmon the Ewok's are not that bad. I'd take a couple dozen Ewok's over Jar-Jar anyday. And of course ESB is getting the most votes.
It's a kick *** movie! Could be the perfect movie. I don't think George Lucas could have directed it. I think George, whom I worship, as we all should, gets a little too slapstick at times. His directing is a little light, where Kirshner kept the tone of Empire more serious, which was what it needed. Ok, so what gives with ANH??? This is the one! The original! One of the greatest movies of all time! Even though George f____d up the special edition by changing the Han/Greedo scene, this movie rocks!!!
I guess generation XYZ or whatever is maybe too young to appreciate a movie from 1977? I saw it opening day, and then many times after that. The lines around the block, and the sold out shows for months and months that summer of '77 is a testament to Star Wars ANH. Maybe those that rate it below TPM need to see it again? MTFBWY!

stillakid
05-23-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
JediTricks, I totally disagree that AOTC was less personal story telling.

In the speeder chase for example, we learn that Anakin has better knowledge of the city than Obi-Wan does, and better foresight - he knows exactly where Zam will be.

We know he doesn't feel there's time or it's necessary to explain everything to Obi-Wan. He just agrees with him, tired of a debate, than jumps out of the speeder in mid-air.

You see this proven in front of the bar. Obi-Wan gives him a ton of criticisms and instructions, and you can see Anakin's heard it before, he's just agreeing so Obi-Wan will stop the lesson as quickly as possible.

I don't see it that way, that he was merely agreeing to shut Obi up. There is a distinct pattern throughout the entire movie of Anakin whining and complaining, but somehow "knowing" that Obi Wan is right. This doesn't speak to the film's personal nature so much as offering another example of how erratically Anakin's character was drawn.

Using an example like this one and justifying the lack of interactive dialogue as just one of the characters not wanting to continue talking about it doesn't hold water when a writer should be making the character's motivations crystal clear. Anakin's thoughts could be interpreted in the way you describe if pressed to make a case for defending the film, but upon watching what actually transpires on screen, that's not what is going on at all. The personal interactions have to stop at some point in order to keep the very full plot moving. There just isn't time to develop those relationships and churn out all of the setup information necessary. GL wasted two hours of potential time that he could have used to feed the audience some of this setup (with TPM), so he's stuck having to cram it into the remaining 4 hours or so at the expense of having time to properly make us care about any of the people caught up in the sprawling events.



Originally posted by Tycho

The love story and the experiences of Anakin and Padme during "agressive negotiations" as well as that of Mace Windu even, and a certain bounty hunter, are focused on during the Arena Battle. Then in the ground war after that, it is personal when Padme falls out of a gunship, because Obi-Wan and Anakin get lucky and spot Count Dooku on his speeder rushing towards his ship hanger.

Where was Anakin's undying devotion in the Droid Factory conveyor belt sequence. Not once did he look around to see how his "love" was faring. Yeah, he was busy trying to save his own butt, and that is exactly the point. A guy who is that in love won't just be a fair weather gentleman. It's easy for him to show concern in the gunship because he's got nothing else to do but hang on until the thing lands. If not for R2, Padme would have been encased in molten steel and Anakin would never have known what happened to her, nor did he seem to care...not until it was convenient for the story anyway.


Originally posted by Tycho

It seems I've countered your points.

Dodge, parry...:Pirate:

Tycho
05-23-2002, 12:59 AM
I think George MEANT it to look like Anakin was too busy saving his own butt on the conveyor belt and then didn't know where Padme had fallen. In fact, neither of them knew what they were doing - almost like the Classic Trilogy characters.

They were going to search the whole civilization down there until they found Obi-Wan. That's all they knew.

So while he's looking around for her, he gets knocked down and gets his arm welded into something that is eventually cut down, along with his lightsaber.

Plus he can't save Padme if he's dead himself.

Counterpoint. Check.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I think George MEANT it to look like Anakin was too busy saving his own butt on the conveyor belt and then didn't know where Padme had fallen. In fact, neither of them knew what they were doing - almost like the Classic Trilogy characters.

They were going to search the whole civilization down there until they found Obi-Wan. That's all they knew.

So while he's looking around for her, he gets knocked down and gets his arm welded into something that is eventually cut down, along with his lightsaber.

Plus he can't save Padme if he's dead himself.

Counterpoint. Check.


That comparison would work fine, except that it doesn't. :) When our heroes in ANH get split up, it is Luke (who is the love interest in that one) that is paired with Leia. Had Luke been separated from Leia instead, I would expect that he then would have expressed concern for her while running through the halls with Han or Chewy. If that hypothetical happened, then the comparison would be valid. However, Anakin's entire story in AOTC is almost exclusively about his "love" for Padme. In fact, he was reluctant to even go on the rescue mission in the first place. So in this one instance, when his own life is on the line, he doesn't take notice of her at all. Now, I'm not suggesting that his part should have been written with him cutting himself free and then saving her. I'll I'm asking is that he at least look around for her...call out her name in concern...anything that speaks to his supposed unparallelled devotion to her.

checkmate

Tycho
05-23-2002, 01:21 AM
From that last couple of sentences on, I actually agree with you.

Well argued, Sir.

I wondered whether Anakin would cut his own arm off to go save her - but he didn't have his lightsaber free anyway, plus I'd read the spoilers that Dooku cuts it off anyway. (and we'd seen trailers with Anakin using 2 lightsabers - or it was Lucasfilm behind the scenes stuff...I forgot)

Tycho
05-23-2002, 01:28 AM
By the way, she married Anakin, but I DO NOT think Padme loves him actually. She told him what he wants to hear when she thought they might die.

He took that the whole 9 years, even if HE knows she doesn't really love him, too.

I don't think I posted my whole theory on that part. It was in a private e-mail to a friend, but that part isn't private, so I could put it up.

Later, as Padme has kids with Anakin, maybe she learns to love him, or worse, maybe the tragedy is also that she never really does.

That too is interpretation, but if I got it straight, then that too explains some of the acting.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
He took that the whole 9 years, even if HE knows she doesn't really love him, too.


Thanks for that. But, like I say, I could be wrong...I'm making this up as I go. ;)

I didn't understand that sentence from above. Could you clarify please?

It's an interesting thought, that she doesn't really love him, but what would the motivation for that be? Does it contribute to the story in any meaningful way?

stillakid
05-23-2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by mark2d2
Luke is making a mistake in battle. It . . . uh . . . happens all the time.

Actually, I think most of the things you find missing are due to Lucas --- and not Kershner. (Lucas was constantly complaining about the budget.) Besides, there would be no logic in having the troopers storm the trenches. The AT AT technology reigns supreme and obliterates the Rebels before such a move is necessary.

At any rate, you're pretty much alone on this issue. Check the poll.

So you're proposing that the purpose of the Hoth Battle was to show how fallible Luke is? I suppose it could be construed that way, with him crashing and all. But fallible is one thing, him coming off as inept is another.

Not being on set, it's impossible to say, but from having worked in blizzard and cold conditions like they did, I can say from personal experience that it does effect what ends up on film. It is really really difficult to do anything in that kind of weather, much less shoot a movie. So having the battalions of Stormtroopers in a nail-biting invasion sequence would have been quite a task. However, the movie is weaker because of it, in my opinion, and disqualifies it from being judged as "perfect." ;)

As far as the AT AT technology goes, that appears to be the worst kind of attack the Empire could have launched against that particular base. Aside from the ION cannons, the only gun emplacements the Rebels had were fixed in a horizontal position, ready for a ground attack. And the tow cable strategy would have rendered the AT AT's useless eventually...if only imperfect Luke with kung-fu grip would have realized it sooner. The Empire could have easily dropped a massive squadron of TIE's and TIE Bombers to the surface and laid waste to the entire installation much faster.

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 02:28 AM
I also don't think that Padme is really in love with Anakin. "In lust" would be a more accurate description. It fits her character perfectly that she wouldn't recognize her own emotions. She was elected as Queen at a very early age and thus would have to learn to suppress any emotion she was feeling to keep from showing weakness to her political opponents. Anakin is the first person to make her feel this particular way, so it's understandable that she mistakes it for love.

Just the impression I got from watching the film.

TIE Fighters or Bombers couldn't be used on Hoth. Remember Peitt saying "Commscan is detecting an energy field, it is strong enough to deflect any bombardment"?

Just my opinion again, but I felt Leia's declaration of love was a little more forced than Padme's. Throughout ESB Leia is insulting and condescending with Han, then suddenly with one kiss in the Falcon all that changes? Padme was very fond of Anakin as a kid, and it isn't too hard to believe that she felt a spark when seeing him again on Coruscant. Especially after seeing how much he had grown. You might say she felt a twinge in her loins.;) Anyways, Padme has probably never felt so intensly attracted to anyone as she does to Anakin. Why would she still be interested in him after he admits to slaughtering the Tuskens? Why do women fall in love with bank robbers and murderers? I think it was his dangerous streak that turned her on. She came from the flacid, peacful world of Naboo, not hard to see how she would become attracted to such a unpredictable, dangerous personality as Anakin.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada

TIE Fighters or Bombers couldn't be used on Hoth. Remember Peitt saying "Commscan is detecting an energy field, it is strong enough to deflect any bombardment"?


From space. That meant that the Destroyers couldn't pull into orbit and fire from there. In the same way the ground attack could land and fire at the base, once an air assault penetrated the boundry of the energy field, they would have been able to destroy anything they wished.

mark2d2
05-23-2002, 03:16 AM
Stillakid, you obsess over things in ways I don't understand.

I'm not saying that the entire battle was to show how inept Luke was. I'm merely saying that the lines you brought up as not making sense --- can, in fact, make perfect sense. Luke is not perfect. Here he makes a mistake in battle and has overconfidence in his abililities. Dack is telling him that he is not ready and Luke could care less. He KNOWS that with his knowledge of the force he'll be able to sense when Dack shold release that tow cable . . . But he doesn't count on the fact that they might get shot . . .

Again, this is a minor point. But it is this type of laying and texturing that is missing in ALL the other films.

I just think that as a whole, the writing in ESB has yet to be equalled.

2-1B
05-23-2002, 03:28 AM
stillakid and Tycho, I disagree with both of you on the scene outside the nightclub. :) Anakin was not being whiny at all, just very eager to do the right thing. No, I do not think Anakin was just trying to tell Obers what he wanted to hear; it's just that he was so caught up in the moment of catching this assassin that he was being hasty in not really incorporating his master's lessons.

I think the love story is believable. I do think Padme loves Anakin. I know the love story has been accused of being "rushed", and while I understand why some people might come to that conclusion, I think "abridged" is a better description. George is kinda clunky in his editing this way, I do see onscreen the main steps of the progression of their love for each other - but it goes from step to step without truly flowing.
It works for me. :)

stillakid
05-23-2002, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by mark2d2
Stillakid, you obsess over things in ways I don't understand.


I'm trying to get to the bottom of that myself. :) But it is the tiny annoying details that can make or break a screenplay. One misplaced word can change everything.


Originally posted by mark2d2

He KNOWS that with his knowledge of the force he'll be able to sense when Dack shold release that tow cable

Where did you get that from? That isn't alluded to at any point in that sequence. If maybe he had uttered some line like, "Don't worry, Dack, I'll help you" or something less cornball, then it might work that way. But he doesn't imply that that is what he is thinking.




Originally posted by mark2d2

I just think that as a whole, the writing in ESB has yet to be equalled.

Yes, as a whole, the writing is far better in individual circumstances than the others. As a whole, ANH was a better film than the rest have been. As a whole, on a superficial level, the action sequences in AOTC appear to be better than any of the others. Point being, not a one of them has equalled the overall quality of ANH, but all of them have positive aspects (some more than others) that can be appreciated for what they are.

Somebody mentioned that they liked ESB because it had a non-Hollywood ending. That's all fine and good, but just how satisfying would that ending have been if there had been no resolution in a follow-up film? ESB is a great film, no doubt about it. But it requires a lead in and and a follow-up to make it's story a complete one. ANH is self-contained and includes all the best aspects of quality storytelling. (Using that line of reasoning, it's safe to say that AOTC is probably a self-sufficient movie as well, seeing that practically none of the information we received in TPM is necessary to follow the story.)

stillakid
05-23-2002, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
stillakid and Tycho, I disagree with both of you on the scene outside the nightclub. :) Anakin was not being whiny at all, just very eager to do the right thing. No, I do not think Anakin was just trying to tell Obers what he wanted to hear; it's just that he was so caught up in the moment of catching this assassin that he was being hasty in not really incorporating his master's lessons.

I think the love story is believable. I do think Padme loves Anakin. I know the love story has been accused of being "rushed", and while I understand why some people might come to that conclusion, I think "abridged" is a better description. George is kinda clunky in his editing this way, I do see onscreen the main steps of the progression of their love for each other - but it goes from step to step without truly flowing.
It works for me. :)

I agree entirely with you except that he was being both whiny and hasty.

And I'm with you on the love story. I can't see any benefit in having her not really being in love with him. This isn't that deep of a storyline that GL would delve into something other than a standard boy meets girl thing. Clunky is a good way to describe the editing of the entire movie and it unfortuately leaked into the Anakin/Padme affair. But it doesn't work for me as well as I wish it would. :)

2-1B
05-23-2002, 04:21 AM
Well, my friend - be glad then that Anakin's outburst of "I've heard this lesson before ! ! !" was cut from the Nightclub exterior scene! :D (it was shown in the trailer, kinda volatile sounding ;) )

More about the love story:
See, 3 years ago on the day of the TPM release George was already saying that the next one is a love story set against the Sith's attempts at gaining power. And that was the status quo for some time . . . until recent interviews a few months before the film's release in which he claimed it was more of a "love haiku". And I think that's pretty accurate. Maybe he should have underplayed what is onscreen and not show a full trailer called Forbidden Love.

Again, I loved Hayden and Natalie in these scenes, so this is not a personal complaint - but maybe George could have given them a little more time to blend the stages of their romance instead of showing the defining moments . . . Padme's family scenes would most likely help out some in that respect. :)

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 04:25 AM
Stillakid, I think your career in movies is preventing you from really being able to enjoy these films. They're not meant to be scrutinized so thoroughly; they're live-action, Saturday morning cartoons. In any case, I don't know of any movie that doesn't fall apart under your "one misplaced word can change everything" attitude. Reading your comments makes me glad that I have no interest in the film industry. I enjoy watching movies and want to continue to enjoy them. And ANH wasn't so good that all the other movies deserve to be ripped apart for it. There are plenty of nonsense lines and inconsistencies in that film if you really want to go digging for them. However, I don't. I prefer to just sit back and see it for what it is.

Anyways, I'm not terribly attached to my "Padme/lust" theory so I don't mind it being shot down. It's just something that popped into my head while watching the movie for the first time. Who knows maybe I'll stick with it, maybe I won't?

stillakid
05-23-2002, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Stillakid, I think your career in movies is preventing you from really being able to enjoy these films. They're not meant to be scrutinized so thoroughly; they're live-action, Saturday morning cartoons. In any case, I don't know of any movie that doesn't fall apart under your "one misplaced word can change everything" attitude. Reading your comments makes me glad that I have no interest in the film industry. I enjoy watching movies and want to continue to enjoy them. And ANH wasn't so good that all the other movies deserve to be ripped apart for it. There are plenty of nonsense lines and inconsistencies in that film if you really want to go digging for them. However, I don't. I prefer to just sit back and see it for what it is.



You could be right. Perhaps I am "ruined." But ruined from what? From opening my eyes to see what lies beneath the glossy surface? Is remaining naive to the intricacies of story somehow preferable to studying the detail and looking for a deeper appreciation and understanding of what the filmmaker was trying to say? These weren't meant to be as illogical as a Saturday morning cartoon (ie, Wile E Coyote getting squashed by a steamroller) or as cheesy as classic B-movies, but they apparently were intended to embody the fun we felt from watching them while utilizing the best kind of fictional writing that modern authors can muster. The irony is that I am seeing these films for what they really are, not what I want them to be.

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Is remaining naive to the intricacies of story somehow preferable to studying the detail and looking for a deeper appreciation and understanding of what the filmmaker was trying to say?

Sure why not?;) Actually I can relate to your problem on one level. I have studied comic book art for over 15 years now and have begun to develop my own drawing style. However, the downside is that I can never look at the art in a comic with that wide-eyed childhood wonder again. I'm always picking other artist's work apart in order to figure out what they were trying to accomplish by using that close-up or this "camera" angle. So because of this, my enjoyment of comics is nearly non-existent nowadays.

Star Wars is the last bastion of my childhood that I haven't allowed to be tainted by adult sensibilities. I'm not worried about what GL is trying to say in his movies, because he has stated time and again that he isn't trying to say anything. He's just having fun and I am more than willing to go along for the ride.

When Ep3 is released and it is all over then I will move on with the rest of my life and close this chapter. Until then I just want to enjoy it. Is that so hard to understand?

stillakid
05-23-2002, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


Sure why not?;) Actually I can relate to your problem on one level. I have studied comic book art for over 15 years now and have begun to develop my own drawing style. However, the downside is that I can never look at the art in a comic with that wide-eyed childhood wonder again. I'm always picking other artist's work apart in order to figure out what they were trying to accomplish by using that close-up or this "camera" angle. So because of this, my enjoyment of comics is nearly non-existent nowadays.

Star Wars is the last bastion of my childhood that I haven't allowed to be tainted by adult sensibilities. I'm not worried about what GL is trying to say in his movies, because he has stated time and again that he isn't trying to say anything. He's just having fun and I am more than willing to go along for the ride.

When Ep3 is released and it is all over then I will move on with the rest of my life and close this chapter. Until then I just want to enjoy it. Is that so hard to understand?


Not at all! I can relate to the comic book thing, but from the other side. I've never been a real comic book reader, but I was "attracted" to Danger Girl (hmm, wonder why? :cool: ) I loved it. Every part of it. So I asked a friend of mine, who is a huge huge comic book fan and artist to look at it. He HATED it. Tore it apart in ways I hadn't even dreamed of. No matter. I still enjoy it "for what it offers me." Now I'm starting to sound like you! :eek: :D Anyway, the postlude of story is that I asked that guy to show me an example of something that he thinks is really great. I'm still waiting for it, but I'm willing to hear him out. Will it change the way I view Danger Girl? Maybe, but I try to be open and understand what he's saying in hopes that maybe I can appreciate "comic books" on an entirely different level rather than just going ga ga over the sexy babes.

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Not at all! I can relate to the comic book thing, but from the other side. I've never been a real comic book reader, but I was "attracted" to Danger Girl (hmm, wonder why? :cool: ) I loved it. Every part of it. So I asked a friend of mine, who is a huge huge comic book fan and artist to look at it. He HATED it. Tore it apart in ways I hadn't even dreamed of. No matter. I still enjoy it "for what it offers me." Now I'm starting to sound like you! :eek: :D Anyway, the postlude of story is that I asked that guy to show me an example of something that he thinks is really great. I'm still waiting for it, but I'm willing to hear him out. Will it change the way I view Danger Girl? Maybe, but I try to be open and understand what he's saying in hopes that maybe I can appreciate "comic books" on an entirely different level rather than just going ga ga over the sexy babes.

I don't like J. Scott Campbell's artwork on Danger Girl, either. He obviously learned to draw solely from aping other comic artists and never really took the time to study anatomy himself.

I will provide an example of what I consider great comic art. :) From a totally cool book called HeroBear and the Kid. Enjoy!:cool:

stillakid
05-23-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


I don't like J. Scott Campbell's artwork on Danger Girl, either. He obviously learned to draw solely from aping other comic artists and never really took the time to study anatomy himself.

I will provide an example of what I consider great comic art. :) From a totally cool book called HeroBear and the Kid. Enjoy!:cool:

That was pretty good. I had trouble reading the words with the lower resolution problems, but the art was good. A vastly different style than DG. I thought that the people in DG were "accurate"(?), at least in terms of a kind of, I don't know how to put it, a "sexual realism." (if that makes sense) In other words, they all seem anatomically correct.:confused:

SithDroid
05-23-2002, 12:48 PM
I like J. Scott Campbell's artwork. I've followed him since his days on Gen 13. Granted some of it is a little unrealsitic, but then again these are comics and almost everything in them is unrealistic. By the way stillakid I read Danger Girl also, supposedly there is a movie on the way. I think they are trying to get Sean Connery to be in it.

Other artists I admire are Michael Turner, Todd McFarlane, and Joseph Madierua. I mainly got into Madiera when he started on X-Men, plus I really like his Battle Chasers series (which he NEEDS to start getting out again) even although Red Monika is OVERLY EXAGERATED if you know what I mean. Followed Michael Turner since his days on Witchblade. McFarlane I got interested in during his days on Spider-man. There are other artists I admire, but to many to list. These are the main ones though.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

Darth Bezelbub
05-23-2002, 01:40 PM
Myself personally I can respect that many fans want to know what they, and others think is the best movie, :confused: in a order, but I look at it as if you had 5 kids could you SAY which is your favorite, NO. Myself I like them ALL, equally. I was never that impressed/shocked that Luke's father was Vader at the end of "Empire." But I can respect the fact that other fans want to rate them.

I liked:

Jar Jar :)

Jake Lloyds "Anakin Skywalker" :happy:

The Ewoks ;)

Muppets in all the movies :cool:

The Names of The Last Two Movies "The Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones" :p

bigbarada
05-23-2002, 03:37 PM
I agree, Bezelbub. Ranking the movies is really kind of stupid, as is trying to determine the fan favorite with these easily corrupted polls. Didn't anybody else notice how ANH and ROTJ matched each other vote for vote from single digits all the way up to 115? Looks like a blatant example of tampering to me. Too bad some fans are so invested in the OT, and only the OT, that they can't stand the idea that other fans like the prequels better. Maybe I should flood the poll to give TPM a better standing than 17 votes.:rolleyes:

No offense, SithDroid, but I really am not too impressed with any of the artists you mentioned. They all have a quality of sameness to them. My favorite artists: Mike Kunkel (Herobear), Jeff Smith, Alex Ross, Mike Allred, Mike Mignola, Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. Although I must give credit to Todd McFarlane and Jim Lee for getting me interested in comic book art in the first place, but I must say, fame has made them lazy.

Darth Bezelbub
05-23-2002, 04:45 PM
I am glad you agree with me bigbarada. It's in some ways its a neat poll, but every body from Big Star Wars Fans ------ entertainment time passbyers, most likely to has some problem with each(all the movies).

Some people have a problems with the script, the dialoge, the aliens, sterotypes, what does and doesn't belong in each movie, I could go on and on...

I mean one of my favorite movies is "Dawn of the Dead" my only real problem with it is one thing that is inconsitant in the plot. That is after(all the people who haven't see it might not know what I'm talking about) Peter and Roger are in the basement of the slum building the one legged priest says that another part of the basement is where the dead are stored. Next the S.W.A.T. team begins to bang on the boaded up wall; then the next thing all those Zombies :dead: just rush past them. :confused: They just passed up on a free meal with out any explaination in the story. I would have to say it IS practially flawless other than that.

And I think that TPM didn't have anything wrong with that movie. Zero, Zip, Zelch!

I just hope Lucas creates Episode III the way HE wants it to be, and isn't affected by what SOME fans say or complain.

plasticfetish
05-23-2002, 05:38 PM
Your criticism of the poll in general is understandable ... I originally took this to be a more subjective sort of thing ... not so much detail and criticism based. Kind of a way to gauge peoples gut feelings about the movies ... after all any kind of ranking or criticism is going to be based on peoples opinions and interpretations of what they see ... there's no real science to this.
But ... I will admit I have enjoyed (in my quiet lurking here kind of way) reading the critiques and all of the theories, etc.
It reminds me of how we picked apart the original 3 when I was younger ... and even once theorized that maybe this "Boba Fett" will end up being Luke's father in ESB (hah).

Besides, what else is there to do until the next movie comes out?

and ... OK ... Darth Bezelbub ( I reach over and pull my DVD of "Dawn of the Dead" out from under its friend "Texas Chainsaw 2" ... quickly skipping to that scene ) yeah ... that bit is weird, I never noticed before. I would say maybe they wheel forward on momentum alone and seem to go after the cops on the stairs ... but, for the most part it just seems like we're missing something that got edited out there. That whole scene is weirdly edited (and I'm watching the director's cut) but, I always thought that sort of thing made Romero's movies even more freaky.
Love that movie. Got to meet Tom Savini at a Godzilla convention a while back (?) ... couldn't think of anything to say besides "I love your zombies." Duh.

And now back to a galaxy far far away.

stillakid
05-23-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by SithDroid
I like J. Scott Campbell's artwork. I've followed him since his days on Gen 13. Granted some of it is a little unrealsitic, but then again these are comics and almost everything in them is unrealistic. By the way stillakid I read Danger Girl also, supposedly there is a movie on the way. I think they are trying to get Sean Connery to be in it.


I'd heard rumors about a movie. I just hope that the actresses that get cast don't get all prudish and ruin the primary selling point of the franchise.:kiss: (the way the screwed up Witchblade) If I see a screen version of Danger Girl, I don't expect to see an "adaptation." I want to see smokin' hot babes in skin tight and next to nothing outfits fighting to keep the world safe from master criminals. :)

Wolfwood319
05-24-2002, 12:20 AM
After subsequent viewings of AOTC, it is now my favorite of the saga. Its the most entertaining film in the saga, for me anyway. Lucas seemed to finally present the Star Wars universe the way he's wanted to from the beginning.

I never liked Campbell's artwork or any of his own stories. I also don't like any of Joe Mad's post-marvel work. Books like Witchblade, Gen 13, Danger Girl, Battle Chasers, etc. are the books in which contributed to the decline of the industry, IMO. (Besides that early 90's period.) The over sexualization of the genre in general is what really started to plague the industry.

Aled Ross is really good, (kingdom come is outstanding.) I love the roughness of Frank Miller's work on DK, Sin City, 300, etc. I like art in comics to be pretty straight forward for the most part though. McFarlane is about as fancy as I like to get, for the most part. His work on Spidey was good, and then of course the original Spawn I liked. Nothing over dramatic that distracts from the overall book.

Tycho
05-24-2002, 01:13 AM
To answer some concerns, but inform all of you of the administrative decisions behind this poll, I state the following:

1) I got a lot of mail and requests asking for this poll. It was a little silly to me, but that's why I ran it. Hey, let's have fun! See what the passions of the moment do to SW fans at the time of a new movie release.

2) I realize all it can do is tell us the single most-often favored film; it statistically DOES NOT RANK all the other movies.

Remember a majority of the people voting in this poll voted for ESB, right? That doesn't tell us at all what THEIR second-favorite is.

3) To rank them, I will have to put up a new poll:

Which is your favorite movie out of:

1) TPM
2) AOTC
3) ANH
4) ROTJ

[please don't respond to this as it won't serve any purpose until we can tally results].

But therefore it does not matter if people cheated on the poll and made a challenge match between ANH and ROTJ. They weren't in direct competition with one another when most of the people went for Empire.

4) Cheating is stupid. Sure people can hack a poll - so go hack Hasbro's and make Reikeen win. It honestly doesn't make a difference if "A Night at the Roxbury" beats every Star Wars movie on an SSG poll. Furthermore, unless everyone (with different log-ins) was posting that 'Roxbury' was the best, then we'd know it was tampered with anyway.

Enough individuals voting for ESB posted their reasons why, I think that since the posts and the votes outnumbered all the other movies, we can validate Empire.

But if cheaters are not the least bit curious what is the favorite movie out there, then they are wasting their time here. If someone floods all the votes for 'The Mask' or whatever, then they should KNOW what is going to happen: The Mask is going to win. Well, DUH-huh!

Why don't they watch how all the fans that come here vote and learn something they did not know?

Lasers and Gamorreans, if you have time to waste, why don't you waste it standing in Wal*Mart until they stock the toy isle and you'd have Han, Chewie, and Pilot Obi-Wan Kenobi right now, instead of providing us with a great argument that you have no social skills and feel uncomfortable in public?

If you can't afford the figures, why don't you get a job, or work a second one? No one here is thankful that your mom pays for your internet service provider. [the cheaters that is]

In any case, why don't you learn some self-confidence. If your favorite movie is "The Little Mermaid" and you're the only one in the poll defending it, Get A Pair! The only criteria is whether YOU like it enough to give it your one singular vote. If no one else, or a minority of others pick your choice, you should be thankful that only you and a few others have that refined of taste. You enjoy what you enjoy. Geeze. Be proud of yourself. You guys who cheat are the same people who go up to the cash register with your Star Wars figures, see a pretty girl checking your merchandise out and LIE and say it's for your little brother, or your nephew! When she says she works for the Children's Fund and thinks that's sweet that you're nice to little kids and she wants to come over and visit your place, what are you going to do? Run home and try to fit the Royal Starship, your vintage Death Star and Tyderium Shuttle, plus the Falcon, AT-AT and 500 action figures all in the same closet before you invite her in your room? (at mommy's house?) Have some pride: don't like her or anyone else more than you like yourself! And don't think that you are less worthy of a fan if "Titanic" is your favorite film and it doesn't win some SSG fan poll.

If I haven't been blunt already, I will be now. If you are old enough to be an original CLASSIC FAN, you should have grown into adulthood where it counts by now. Your self-concept should be where it's at so that if one or both prequel movies rate better than ANH or ROTJ, you should still be able to live with yourself.

And if you're not an adult, re-read what I wrote and think about what kind of adult you want to grow up to be.

Bottom line: I'll run run-off polls to rank the films. If "Paper Dolls" wins, I could care less. I honestly do like Attack of the Clones as my favorite SW movie - and I am in my mid-twenties - and saw ANH in the theaters when it was first released. And I'm not still living in 1977, with my parents, and my self-concept does not revolve around what people who still are think about me!

I voted "Clones!" and I'm proud of it!

mark2d2
05-24-2002, 01:23 AM
Whew, Tycho. What brought that on? You seem a bit wound up . . .

SithDroid
05-24-2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
I'd heard rumors about a movie. I just hope that the actresses that get cast don't get all prudish and ruin the primary selling point of the franchise.:kiss: (the way the screwed up Witchblade) If I see a screen version of Danger Girl, I don't expect to see an "adaptation." I want to see smokin' hot babes in skin tight and next to nothing outfits fighting to keep the world safe from master criminals. :)

I agree.

Tycho
05-24-2002, 02:13 AM
Mark2D2:

It's just that I work hard to read your e-mails, debate which will make interesting polls, and try to come up with a few myself.

I had the Skiff vs. the AAT Tank poll messed with in the Battle of the Machines, likely only because a superior vehicle from TPM was going to pile on a Classic craft.

So I'm just trying to do a good job for you guys, and one person, or a minority of users mess it up for everyone else.

BigBarada was right to be frustrated about that too -as he regularly participates in the Battle of the Machines and recognizes it too.

Then we dealt with the Sketchtrooper's sudden surge in votes that one single night over at Hasbro's site.

So it just spoils it for the rest of us if somebody cheats. Empire clearly won this poll. I will start another one now for those subscribed and interested in this thread to try and rank the movies.

2-1B
05-24-2002, 02:16 AM
Tycho, I haven't felt you this tense since, well since we fell into that nest of Gundarks! :D

Hey, I'll be here for 3 years "defending" AOTC as my "favorite." :happy: I'll probably lock horns here and there with some of my fellow forumites, and it'll be more fun that way! :)

I like the idea of a run-off poll, that should be fun. I predict ESB will finish 1st (already has), and TPM will finish 5th. But the other 3 - I'm not confident in where they will fall. When can we start?

mark2d2
05-24-2002, 02:21 AM
Indeed it is very lame that these polls are always hacked. I don't get it actually. It's like I guess some people really do have "nothing" to do.

I'm still annoyed about that lame-o concept trooper's alleged victory.

Tycho
05-24-2002, 02:31 AM
Ceasar, we just started.

Empire is firmly entrenched in its victory as SSG readers' favorite film and we have enough posts in this thread to prove it.

Now AOTC, ROTJ, ANH, and TPM will square off on their own, and all you Empire fans can vote for your favorite movie out of those.

Well, here we go again!



[by the way, should I close this thread? Or can you guys not move your discussion over to the new poll with 4 movies in it? - your choice and I'll go with what you want]

2-1B
05-24-2002, 03:01 AM
I vote "close it" only because those of us who are actively following the voting will be heading first to the "second place" thread to cast our votes, and we can continue there. I'd rather have one thread open than have to follow two lines.

Undoubtedly, more posts in the new thread will cause discussions pro and con so we may as well proceed from there.
But if you do leave this open, I'll still check it out . . .

mark2d2
05-24-2002, 03:12 AM
I agree close the poll!

I predict the following results . . .

1) Empire
2) A New Hope
3) Attack of the Clones
4) Return of the Jedi
5) The Phantom Menace

Actually, those are my picks. For the masses I predict that A New Hope will fall down a notch as Attack of the Clones Rises up to the coveted second place slot . . .

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 03:59 AM
First off, I don't think this thread should close at least until the poll is over. Secondly, I think we need to remember that we can let others post their opinions without this instant-message style back-and-forth posting.



Originally posted by Tycho
JediTricks, I totally disagree that AOTC was less personal story telling.

In the speeder chase for example, we learn that Anakin has better knowledge of the city than Obi-Wan does, and better foresight - he knows exactly where Zam will be.

We know he doesn't feel there's time or it's necessary to explain everything to Obi-Wan. He just agrees with him, tired of a debate, than jumps out of the speeder in mid-air.

You see this proven in front of the bar. Obi-Wan gives him a ton of criticisms and instructions, and you can see Anakin's heard it before, he's just agreeing so Obi-Wan will stop the lesson as quickly as possible.

The love story and the experiences of Anakin and Padme during "agressive negotiations" as well as that of Mace Windu even, and a certain bounty hunter, are focused on during the Arena Battle. Then in the ground war after that, it is personal when Padme falls out of a gunship, because Obi-Wan and Anakin get lucky and spot Count Dooku on his speeder rushing towards his ship hanger.

It seems I've countered your points. Well, you've given counterpoints to my points, but I don't think they're entirely valid. I guess this does say a lot about why you like the EU more than the films though - I think you read more into little things than what the films actually put up there. Also, I think you expect more subtlety to be properly read from the audience than can be expected. We "learned" that Ani knew more about the city? I don't remember learning that until you spelled it out for me just now. It's the same with "the love story" and the following of characters throughout the final battle. You clearly are reading a lot into Ani's actions, but I don't see all this in there, I got very little out of what you read volumes - perhaps you read the book beforehand? I will give you that once Obi-Wan and Ani start yelling at each other in the Gunship, it gets personalized for a second, but even the saber battle is simply actions without clear subtexts (beyond the PAINFULLY superficial "stop the badguy").

Tycho
05-24-2002, 04:51 AM
JediTricks, I commend you on some very thoughtful insight into something I'm surprised I didn't know more about: ME!

You've probably hit the nail right on the head (mine in this case) as to why I like the books so much. The depth etc. and though I have not yet read the novelization to Episode 2, (it's on my To Read Shelf right now, but I'm into some of those short stories like Boba Fett's post-AOTC as we speak), I wanted to see what I'd get from reading the screenplay (from spoiler sites) and then just the comic (based only on the screenplay with no interpretation to the extent of a novel).

But I still do not "just watch the movie" and take everything literally at face value - like you suggested. I am always looking for something with deeper meaning - clues to things that helped me theorize Han is a Clone of somebody (not Jango obviously) and so on.

Stillakid makes the point that the movie of this type should SHOW us EXACTLY what each frame is intended to.

But I cite Palpatine as an example. He is supposed to be a mystery with only interpretation left open to him.

Does anybody believe he sincerely wants to relinquish emergency powers when this crisis has abated? Well I heard him say that. We don't know that he's already evil and plans to become the emperor. They didn't come out and show that. Why doesn't he take down his hood when he's with Dooku? They could show the audience that way.

OK, Anakin's character development is arguably different. It's not supposed to be a mystery. He wears his heart on his sleave. I saw stuff deeper into him, and Padme's supposed feelings about their relationship, etc. Maybe I'm reaching, or maybe, if Palpatine can have subtext, so can a lot of other stuff.

But JT, your insight into me is right on. Wow! I've been psychoanalyzed. If you could just work out the Mouse Droid thing, you could finally 'explain me' to our viewing audience.

BTW, any of you guys sniff the massif yet? Sniff that dog! Yeah! There is clearly the smell of a successful online purchase at Wizards/starwars.com! And it came in fresh Fed/Ex packaging - stronger than incense and lasts longer!

Grif
05-24-2002, 10:39 AM
I saw A New Hope first and I don't know how old I was. Anyway here they are :
5. The Phantom Menace
4. A New Hope
3. Return Of The Jedi
2. Attack Of The Clones
1. The Empire Strikes Back

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:25 AM
I have an idea that is "hack proof." Don't rely on click voting, rather if someone feels strongly enough to vote for anything one way or another, they should be motivated enough to post a reply to the thread in clear English. This reduces the results to a hand-count, but unless one person registers with a multitude of screennames, the poll will then be relatively safe.

bigbarada
05-24-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
I have an idea that is "hack proof." Don't rely on click voting, rather if someone feels strongly enough to vote for anything one way or another, they should be motivated enough to post a reply to the thread in clear English. This reduces the results to a hand-count, but unless one person registers with a multitude of screennames, the poll will then be relatively safe.

Sounds good to me, if Tycho wants to keep the click voting system then simply put a disclaimer in the first post of every poll stating that if you don't post in the discussion your vote will be nixxed in the event of a recount.

It's like the click votes are the popular vote and we (the ones who participate in the discussions) are the Electoral College.:)

Tycho
05-24-2002, 04:34 PM
I've been suggesting that in the solution to the Battle of the Machines Fight 13 (skiff vs. tank)

That's the same thing with these movie polls. But there's several things here, Empire has far more write-ins than any other movie in this thread, plus the votes. So that one's safe to call.

Next, if someone wants to mess with the poll so the next closest movie, Clones, wins, they'll waste the time to do that something like 200-300 times? Geeze. What a lot of time that person must waste on the particulars of their psychosis! So we're ok here with Empire garnering the majority of the vote, and we just watch the rest of them as this progresses.

Right now, Clones has the votes and the posts for the fans' 2nd choice (in the other poll I mean)

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 06:26 PM
Tycho, I think we'll have to call it a draw on the AOTC issue. :D


Originally posted by stillakid
I have an idea that is "hack proof." Don't rely on click voting, rather if someone feels strongly enough to vote for anything one way or another, they should be motivated enough to post a reply to the thread in clear English. This reduces the results to a hand-count, but unless one person registers with a multitude of screennames, the poll will then be relatively safe. I think that would be "poll proof". ;) I dunno if the system can do this on its own (limit posts in a thread to 1 per person), so if the system can't then it'd require close moderation. Of course, that would sorta negate all those voters who AREN'T registered on the forums, but who knows, maybe that'd work. the thing of it is though, that like Tycho mentioned about skiff vs tank, not everybody is reading those sections and some folks just want to click a button and leave, not type an answer - so that will affect the responses you get. Ideally, when version 3 of these forums comes out, the "who voted" system could return and it could automatically track and display who voted.

stillakid
05-24-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Tycho, I think we'll have to call it a draw on the AOTC issue. :D

I think that would be "poll proof". ;) I dunno if the system can do this on its own (limit posts in a thread to 1 per person), so if the system can't then it'd require close moderation. Of course, that would sorta negate all those voters who AREN'T registered on the forums, but who knows, maybe that'd work. the thing of it is though, that like Tycho mentioned about skiff vs tank, not everybody is reading those sections and some folks just want to click a button and leave, not type an answer - so that will affect the responses you get. Ideally, when version 3 of these forums comes out, the "who voted" system could return and it could automatically track and display who voted.


Like I said, anyone who feels strongly enough to vote should have the motivation to explain why they voted one way or another.

This is endemic of our voting system in this country anyway. People choose candidates based on "emotion" or at the very least, an uninformed opinion. The electoral college is there because there is an assumption that the voters aren't capable of really choosing the best option, whether it be an issue or a candidate. As I grow older and watch various elections and see the seemingly odd choices that get made, it becomes obvious that most voters do not take the time to study the issues or the candidates and make votes based on, well, very little. If we had to take a quiz before we stepped into the little booths to prove that we were educated about the issues that we were about to approve or disapprove then maybe some real and positive advances in our society could take place.

But perhaps that's too much politics for these polls. After all, they're just toys. :)

bigbarada
05-24-2002, 07:21 PM
We have enough problem getting people to vote in the US as it is, forcing them to study for a test before they can vote will cause the majority of people to simply not vote. How accurate can an informed election be, if it only accounts for 1% of the population?

stillakid
05-24-2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
We have enough problem getting people to vote in the US as it is, forcing them to study for a test before they can vote will cause the majority of people to simply not vote. How accurate can an informed election be, if it only accounts for 1% of the population?


The alternative is having 99% of the ignorant voting? It's a tough choice, but I'd rather have those that care enough about what's going on taking the time to visit a polling place and vote. It is a serious responsiblity and priviledge and not enough people use it responsibly. For those that don't vote, or things aren't going your way, it should be an incentive to read up on the issues/candidates and work to affect change.

bigbarada
05-24-2002, 10:47 PM
The system works better than it has in the past. Originally only white male land owners were allowed to vote and even then only about 10-15% of the people elligible to vote actually voted.

I would prefer the system we have now than having a priviledged minority deciding everything for us. What about single parents who work two jobs and don't necessarily have the time to do extensive research on the candidates? Are you saying that they should lose their right to vote simply because they are trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their family's heads?

Besides who would make up this test? And how would we know that it wasn't biased towards one political party over another? Any organization or system run by humans will inherently become corrupted, thus you have to look ahead and not rely on the average politician (or person in general) to just do the right thing.

In any case, I agree with you on one point. Any election system that is responsible for Clinton getting elected to two terms needs an overhaul.:)

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada
The system works better than it has in the past. Originally only white male land owners were allowed to vote and even then only about 10-15% of the people elligible to vote actually voted.

I would prefer the system we have now than having a priviledged minority deciding everything for us. What about single parents who work two jobs and don't necessarily have the time to do extensive research on the candidates? Are you saying that they should lose their right to vote simply because they are trying to put food on the table and keep a roof over their family's heads?

Besides who would make up this test? And how would we know that it wasn't biased towards one political party over another? Any organization or system run by humans will inherently become corrupted, thus you have to look ahead and not rely on the average politician (or person in general) to just do the right thing.

In any case, I agree with you on one point. Any election system that is responsible for Clinton getting elected to two terms needs an overhaul.:)


Actually, I had our last stolen election in mind when I wrote that. :) I couldn't believe it when the first Bush was elected...but two of them?!

Anyway, a basic quiz on what the issues are wouldn't be too difficult. Besides, you're suggesting that people who are basically clueless to what they are voting for should go ahead and vote anyway. ???? What do you do, just start punching random holes?

When I show up to a booth and see just one candidate on the ballot, I don't automatically punch the hole for them if I don't have a clue as to who they are. Would you recommend to high school students who haven't studied for the SAT to go ahead and take it anyway if they haven't studied for the past 4 years? 50-50 that they choose the right answers, I guess, but it's not an indication of how intelligent they are, just how lucky they got.

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by stillakid
Would you recommend to high school students who haven't studied for the SAT to go ahead and take it anyway if they haven't studied for the past 4 years?

That's how I took the ACT and I scored a 27 which I assume is pretty good, I got a full-term 4-year scholarship at the school of my choice out of it.:cool: To bad I was in the Army and it expired.:cry:

Do you really think we should have had Michael Dukakis as president in 1988? Anyways, I don't think anyone goes into the polls totally ignorant, although some to tend to vote primarily along their party lines. People who don't care enough to pay attention to the campaign usually don't care enough to vote either. In any case, I am 29 and I have never voted in a presidential election. I always somehow managed to be stationed overseas during elections and never got my absentee ballots in on time. Maybe next time.

Personally, I didn't like either of the candidates for the last election; but Bush showed himself to be a strong leader in a crisis like 9/11 so that's why he would get my vote if he ran again.

My criteria for the previous candidates revolved around their plans for military spending. Clinton wanted to freeze the yearly military pay raises (which are used to counter inflation) but Bush didn't. So, if I had a chance to vote in 1992, I would have definitely voted for Bush on that issue alone. In any case, we all know who won (not because Clinton was the most popular, but because Perot split the vote three ways) and the military lost their pay raise. After Clinton realized that the militaries morale was at a record peacetime low, we all hated his guts and each branch was losing thousands of people every month, he had to bring back the pay raises and even had to add a little extra to sweeten the deal. We still hated him anyway.

In the next election I plan to vote for Bush if he runs again, unless he manages to keep screwing up with the whole Israel/Palestine problem.

stillakid
05-25-2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada


That's how I took the ACT and I scored a 27 which I assume is pretty good, I got a full-term 4-year scholarship at the school of my choice out of it.:cool: To bad I was in the Army and it expired.:cry:

Do you really think we should have had Michael Dukakis as president in 1988? Anyways, I don't think anyone goes into the polls totally ignorant, although some to tend to vote primarily along their party lines. People who don't care enough to pay attention to the campaign usually don't care enough to vote either. In any case, I am 29 and I have never voted in a presidential election. I always somehow managed to be stationed overseas during elections and never got my absentee ballots in on time. Maybe next time.

Personally, I didn't like either of the candidates for the last election; but Bush showed himself to be a strong leader in a crisis like 9/11 so that's why he would get my vote if he ran again.

My criteria for the previous candidates revolved around their plans for military spending. Clinton wanted to freeze the yearly military pay raises (which are used to counter inflation) but Bush didn't. So, if I had a chance to vote in 1992, I would have definitely voted for Bush on that issue alone. In any case, we all know who won (not because Clinton was the most popular, but because Perot split the vote three ways) and the military lost their pay raise. After Clinton realized that the militaries morale was at a record peacetime low, we all hated his guts and each branch was losing thousands of people every month, he had to bring back the pay raises and even had to add a little extra to sweeten the deal. We still hated him anyway.

In the next election I plan to vote for Bush if he runs again, unless he manages to keep screwing up with the whole Israel/Palestine problem.

You've taken the time to research the candidates enough (at least on the issues that you care about) to make an informed choice. Not everyone does. The classic example is of women voting for Kennedy because he was cuter. :rolleyes: Do we really need that kind of nonsense if it can be avoided somehow?

Not to digress too far, though I know we have :sur:, but the Israel/Palestine thing is one of those no-win situations, especially for the U.S.. I don't care who is in the White House, this is a big problem and there will be no easy way out of it unless Israel and the Palestinians work it out on their own. It doesn't seem likely and they will only manage to drag other nations down with them.

In regards to Bush Sr., I was taking a Sociology class in college at the time, and the professor wrote the names of every one of the candidates on the chalk board who were running. I don't know if you remember that particular election, but there were literally something like 50 guys running that year. Unbelievable. Anyway, he asked us to rank them in order of who we thought was most likely to be elected. Dead last on my list was George Bush. It was unfathomable to me that the American public would vote this rich scheming clod into office. Shows you what I know. But then again, this whole Florida debacle goes to show you just how little power the people have when it comes down to it.

So, in a vain attempt to bring this full circle :rolleyes:, Hasbro doesn't have to listen to any of us at all. Perhaps it is they who are stuffing the ballot box because they've already decided who they want to make. Offering a vote only gives the illusion that the fans are involved. Pure conjecture, but a distinct possibility nonetheless.

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 01:10 AM
Good segue to bring us back on topic.;)

I don't really trust Hasbro's intentions behind those Fan Choice polls either. I also really don't beleive that so many people want a concept Trooper over the Dignitary or Rieekan.

People who flood polls really do have nothing better to do.

I'm not going to go into my thoughts on the Israel/Palestine issue, but it is important to me how the US handles it as in how uninvolved we stay. I really don't want to see us get involved in another Bosnia, Kosovo or even worse, Vietnam.

mark2d2
05-25-2002, 03:38 AM
I'm with you, Stillakid. I can't believe I've had to live through two Bush presidencies. Egads.

Sadly, Palestine and Israel are both psychotically determined to win. And foolishly convinced that God/Allah is on their respective sides. The only real hope for peace is if they just wipe each other out and then the rest of the world can go in and pick up the pieces. Seriously, there never has been and never will be tranquility in the middle east. Religion consistently brings out the wackos of each and every faith. And frankly, I'm more than a little sick of it. Let them kill each other all they want. I simply can't care anymore. Enough! They're all behaving like a bunch of spoiled whiney children fighting over what is nothing more than a gigantic sandbox.

Seriously, we should just stay the heck out of there.

plasticfetish
05-25-2002, 05:09 AM
Who is this Bush guy? Is HE going to be in Episode 3?



Sorry.

"there never has been and never will be tranquility in the middle east ... Seriously, we should just stay the heck out of there."

Too late, we helped build Israel after the war and we've been pumping money into the Arab nations for decades as well ... these people had nothing before 1945 and for better or worse, we helped make the situation what it is. A strange parallel to the whole conflict in Episode 2? (nah ... that's too obvious.)

"I couldn't believe it when the first Bush was elected ... but two of them?!"

People love sequels. The poll for this forum supports that.

"Do you really think we should have had Michael Dukakis as president in 1988?"

No. But, imagine how cool it would have been to have had a first lady that drinks rubbing alcohol.

"but Bush showed himself to be a strong leader in a crisis like 9/11 so that's why he would get my vote if he ran again."

Strong? He gave a speech, he handed the ball to his advisors and he seems to do a great job of looking more and more exhausted as the weeks roll by. The guy hasn't and will not do squat as long as Darth Chaney tells him to keep his mouth shut.

It's all good drama though and we love good drama. There should be a forum where we relate current events to StarWars movies. It would be funny and pathetic at the same time.

Tycho
05-25-2002, 06:55 AM
Whoa, are we way off topic. I go away for one day and...

Now I want to talk about the Middle-East problem, too.

Some history: Palestine was conquered by the United Kingdom or English Empire before or during WWII. Of that much I'm not sure of.

In it was the ancient boundaries of Israel, holy to all 3 major world religions, as each subscribes to the Old Testament.

That should describe how Jews were given that land.

However, Jews that accepted Christ became Christians, and they would think that this means that they are the same people as the Jews, but rather the descendants of enlightened ones, I suppose. In any case, today, many Christians don't attack Jews, just wait for their chance to convert them.

Now the Arabic peoples leave something of a mystery to me. They are not of the last Hebrew Tribes (traditional Jews measured by Jewish descent), they are of a different race and speak a different language. Somewhere back in history, somebody introduced them to the Old Testament, and the New Testament, too I guess. But they believe Jesus was a prophet, not part of the Holy Spirit. And next they believe Mohammed was a later prophet that gave them their last instructions on how to live in God's proscribed manner. Well, where did they hear about God from? They are not Hebrews, nor the descendants of Christian coverts whose ancestors were light-skinned Jews. Now Iranian Muslems are "Aryan" or lightskinned. Are they a break-away tribe of Judeao-Christians who then spread the Muslem faith? So they originally used conversion tactics and didn't require control over lands deemed holy sites as long as they were able to practice their faith. As didn't Islam spread before the Jews lost control of Israel the first time?

So were the Jews attacked first? And by the Muslems? Then they captured the Holy Land and in the Crusades the Christians fought since they were more organized in Europe than the refugee Jews. OK, great. But I don't know if they captured Palestine. Maybe Nazi Germany did many centuries later, and England took it away from them.

Whatever, it seems that the Arabs made the first hostile moves, and history recorded that. Then the Jews were dispersed all over Europe and Russia, and different Christian states attacked the Arabs since their culture was not rooted in just the traditions of the Old Testament that Christians also looked to, but in all kinds of new interpretations - like adding Mohammed to this whole mix. Whatever the case, perhaps the Nazi's got a hold of the land next, but England ended up with it.

When it was discovered what the Nazi's were doing to the Jews, England decided that the world needed to make reparations to the Jews and what society and prejudice had done to them. Plus prejudice remained and many in Europe who didn't want to kill the Jews, wanted anyone different from themselves to go someplace else. (Imagine a bunch of HotWheels collectors deciding to post in our forums). So England ceeded Palestine and gave it to the Jews. There were many Hebrew descended Jews living there still, weathering whoever was in power, but many white Jews from Europe and Russia started emigrating so they could live in a society that embraced and accepted them. (Imagine if we got a Wal*Mart that turned the 2nd boys' toys isle from HotWheels into a second row of Star Wars, and they no longer carried those cars, just so we could have a store free of most scalpers). Well, nobody asked the Arab peoples living there for permission. They haven't liked the Westerners since the Crusades, not to mention as time has widened the cultural gap. They're regarded as more primative, superstitious 3rd World states without the enlightenment of democracy and religious freedom as well. And they know and resent that. They don't look at the fact that they kicked the Jews out of there originally. But they resent the West, Christians mostly, trying to take back the land forever after.

Once they decided Israel's Jews were too beaten of people to defend themselves and they tried to sieze control of Israel. Great Britain and the United States through strong public support for the under-dog, Jewish emigrants, armed, trained, and continued to supply support for Israel in the interests of world justice to Jews. That part worked. In short time, the Jews had organized themselves into one of the world's strongest militaries. They fought everyone out of their country and siezed new territories to protect their borders. Like us seizing Tiajuana to stop illegal immigration. Now the Jews said they were keeping the territories they won for the injustices they suffered. The Palestinian people, speaking a bit of a different language than each other idividual Arab state, and having some differences in Muslem sects in their religion, were cut off, kept in the crossfire. With no real army, as England had them subjugated before, they resorted to guerilla warfare (terrorism). Our George Washington was considerred a terrorist in 1776 back in England. Victory changes terrorists into patriots. Luke Skywalker was a terrorist to the Galactic Empire, a government born out of Palpatine's legitimate election.

Now, once someone in your family is killed - your wife, girlfriend, child, especially, you want revenge. You kill someone else's child. They might get a little mad about that. There are generations of families over there who remember injustices like these that affected them personally. They cannot be made to forget and they will tell every generation in their family down to their great grandkids who will obviously be living up to 150 years from now if their grandparents haven't been born yet.

Want to solve the Middle-East crisis? Create a Palestinian State out of Israel's captured territories no matter what Israel protests. Put a United Nations (that means US) peace keeping force in a neutral zone between countries, and have strict restrictions on travel just like the Berlin wall. For the next 150 years, if you enlist in the US military, you will spend 1 year of your first 4 on the Palestinian border, no exceptions.

We have the responsibility because we already propped up Israel and want our oil from Arabic states. We also have the power to do this (with our military). Or they can complain that we don't do it, and they can blow up our buildings and spread anthrax. Is it caving in to terrorism to resolve this by force over there? Or is it wrong to solve our problem while creating world justice? What would Superman do? Well, the US, UK, etc. are Super-Powers. The Bat Signal is on, where is Bruce Wayne?

Now, respond if you need to, but keep it in mind new folks may still want to come in here and talk about Star Wars. They are welcome to do so and should feel free to interrupt. I don't feel cause to move or relocate part of this thread when everyone logged into it that has continued to participate here WANTS to talk about the Middle-East. There's no harm in letting a discussion, just like a conversation, go its natural course. Just keep it in mind that this thread belongs to Star Wars fans, not just us on the UN Peace Delegation.

Post on!

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 02:50 PM
Small note about the origins of the Arabs, well according to Christian, Jewish AND Muslim geneologies the Arabs are descendents of Ishmael, Abraham's son to his consort Haggar. The Jews are the decendents of Isaac, Abraham's son to his wife Sarah. Isaac and Ishmael were half-brothers, but Sarah convinced Abraham to get rid of Haggar and Ishmael. Thus they were cast out into the desert and the rest is history.

This is from the geneological listings in the Bible, so take it how you will; but this is one of the few things that Jews, Arabs and Christians all agree on together and when was the last time you heard of not two, but three major religions agreeing on anything?

mark2d2
05-25-2002, 03:05 PM
" . . . when was the last time you heard of not two, but three major religions agreeing on anything?"

Um . . . how about how they all pretty much unilaterally despised homosexuals and just loved putting us to death? Thank God that belief is finally going by the wayside.

Organized Religion has always been little more than a plot to control the masses. "Suffer now and paradise eternal will be yours!" Whatever. It's really best I don't get started on organized religion. My views are not very kind to say the least.

JediTricks
05-25-2002, 04:10 PM
DID I YET MENTION THAT ANH IS MY CHOICE FOR "FAVORITE STAR WARS FILM"?

At the risk of editorializing, these other issues are why we have a MISC section... it's in 'Revelations' people! (sorry, I had a Kent Brockman moment)

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by mark2d2

Um . . . how about how they all pretty much unilaterally despised homosexuals and just loved putting us to death? Thank God that belief is finally going by the wayside.


That's actually not true for the Arab world where it's considered a sin to have sex with a woman out of wedlock; but having sex with other guys doesn't count with them. Ask people who have been in Saudi Arabia from the military. It's actually considered normal. It's the same in Egypt. American snipers have reported seeing Saddam Hussein with male lovers many times. Why we have snipers watching Hussein bumping uglies through their crosshairs and not blowing his brains out is beyond me.

Tycho the military is already stretched out enough when you take into account Bush Sr.'s drawdown, Clinton's demoralization of the armed forces and sustained presences in Korea, Saudi, Kosovo and Bosnia. Commiting troops to enforce an Israel/Palestine border will overtax an already straining military. Besides Israel is still an ally and they are protecting themselves from terrorism the same way we did after 9/11. You say history rewrites the terrorists as patriots, well then I guess that makes the 9/11 hijackers patriots and us the evil empire that must be brought down for the betterment of humanity.:rolleyes:

plasticfetish, in my military leadership training we learned that there are three main types of leadership: participatory, delegative and authoritative,

Participatory is the "lead by example" or "I won't ask you to do anything that I wouldn't do myself" attitude of leadership. It tends to be the most popular with subordinates because the leader is down there in the figurative mud, getting his/her hands dirty like everybody else. Captain Kirk is an example of a 'participative' leader.

Delegative is the method of assessing the problem, listening to the opinions and points of view of appointed "leiutenants" and then deciding on the correct course of action. It is also delegating authority down to subordinates and spreading out the responsibility evenly, although the leader has final say on the course of action. It is especially effective in training 'young' leaders. Captain Picard is an example of a 'delegative' leader.

Authoritative is the "do as I say, not as I do" method of leadership. There is no room for debate, what the leader says goes. Even if it is the wrong decision and everybody below him/her disagrees with the decision. Understandably it is the least popular form of leadership but yields the fastest results, since there is no debate involved. Darth Vader is an example of an 'authoritative' leader.

What's the point of all this? Well, Bush Jr. is obviously a delegative leader given the way he handled the 9/11 crisis. I find this an admirable trait since delegative leaders tend to not be 'glory-hogs' and spread the praise out among their subordinates. However, a good delegative leader will take full blame when things go wrong. Not saying Bush has the qualities; but his leadership style is delegative, and that is based on his personality and knowledge.

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 05:07 PM
BTW, AOTC is still my favorite, but I'm thinking I should have voted for ANH as my OT favorite instead of ESB. Oh well, se la vi (or however you spell it):)

stillakid
05-25-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by bigbarada

You say history rewrites the terrorists as patriots, well then I guess that makes the 9/11 hijackers patriots and us the evil empire that must be brought down for the betterment of humanity.:rolleyes:


To them (the other guys), they are. The US hasn't been a saint performing good works throughout it's history. Animosity was bound to build up and come back around to bite "us" in the behind. While the ideals that are the foundation of this country are admirable and to be protected at all costs, I get the sense that other people's look at our lavish and wasteful lifestyles with disdain. From that perspective, perhaps our "downfall" would be to the betterment of mindkind or the worldwide "society" at large just so long as the ideals of freedom and democracy could remain alive and well at the same time.

Had we turned from our isolationist stance and approached other nations in a more "neutral" stance, siding with no one in particular, but always doing the "right thing" based upon the ideals our own country was founded on, then maybe this planet would be a better place right now. But instead, when we have oil barons becoming Presidents and making political and military decisions based on their own stock options, then the whole system is at risk of collapsing.

And I still like ANH best. ;)

Tycho
05-25-2002, 05:45 PM
As to Star Wars, I'm not sure what you're saying BigBarada. Clones is your favorite, right? Well it's still running in the second poll as Empire looks to have an untoucable lead.

Clones is my favorite too. So I've voted for it twice now, as probably you did.

Each poll is only asking you to vote for your favorite movie out of the choices presented. The combined polls will rank them for all the fans. But you're all welcome to post your individual rankings as many have done.

Obviously Empire isn't yours or my favorite (though it's a close call for me - my favorite Classic film very often - though now I'm liking Jedi...:rolleyes: )

Anyway, I have to vote Clones so long as it's one of the choices. If it comes down to ANH, ROTJ, and TPM I'll have a tougher choice. Right now I think I'd go for ROTJ.

Meanwhile, as to the leadership examples - that was very effective demonstrations! (Kirk, Picard, Vader) I've read the Marine Corps Officer Training Manual. I very much wanted to be a Marine and serve my country like my father did as a Naval Officer. A surgery I had when I was 11 years old (open heart / lungs) prevents me from being accepted in the officer program (for which I academically qualify) and the enlisted program - all while I am physically fit enough to make PT qualifications - I went through (ok - possibly a lighter strain requirement) for police employment and I passed. (No I'm not a cop - that's on hold because my civilian contracting career / budding political career seems to have jump started and I'm a redevelopment specialist in very deep in a big project that will really help my community. And NO - it's not the San Diego Padres stupid ballpark project - there was nothing wrong with our old stadium - I've seen plenty of games there!)

But back to the military - and the world economy for that matter. We sell exports internationally. We are already in the business of world policing. Let's expand our employment, skills training, and the teaching of the social norms expected of a soldier and a gentleman and let's grow our military. Besides being a better prepared nation with higher morale, let's make our military service an international export. If we compose the bulk of the UN peace-keeping forces, lets tax them for it. Let the Palestinian and Israeli governments be contracted to us for oil, food supplies, civilian services like dry cleaning uniforms to everything they can do, and should want to do, to keep us there and safeguarding their borders for the next 150 - 200 years until the most mature generation has forgotten about the blood feuds from family members that have been killed.

Like I said: Anakin went out and avenged his mother. If he thinks Padme and his unborn child are killed, he'll turn into Darth Vader eventually, trying to avenge them but mistakenly taking it out on Obi-Wan.

If some terrible injustice was done to his great-great-great Grandmother that he never knew, I doubt that would be enough to turn him into a vengeful reaper of death. How many of you think life was always fair to your ancestors? Those of you who are black, have you tried to find the actual decendants of the slave masters who might have beaten your great-great grandmother and kick the tar out of them? It gets a bit ridiculous. There are more civilized reparations that can be made, and you are more emotionally detached and able to accept them, because your ancestors are from the past, and not as much a part of your immediate family as those you knew in your lifetime. However, in Asian cultures, honoring one's ancestors was very important, so a blood feud history might be even harder to erase with time. But the point is, eventually it will be. Meanwhile, neutral soldiers can keep the peace and these people apart. Sooner than later, we'll have Romeo and Juliette stories with happier endings, and societies might heal. It will take more than 100 years though.

But all that is better than an alternative with rogue Arab states trying to punish us for supporting Israel, or NOT intervening more when we are capable of it, or for just being Western and publishing Hustler instead of forbidding Sesame Street and only allowing the Koran. And meanwhile, in an arms race they develop nuclear weapons and biological ones to use on each other, or in terrorists' ill decisions to retaliate against the United States. I live in San Diego - a major military installation - mind you. We have nukes pointed at us right now. It's not a comforting thought though you live life not really thinking about that anyway. Besides, in the event of a nuclear blast here - the Iraqis will never get my Star Wars toys! That's what's important, right? :D

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 06:11 PM
Stillakid, you're talking about "reciprocity" and you're right, the US hasn't done a very good job of that, so it's understandable why much of the world resents or hates us.

As for resentment between ancestors: My entire family on my father's side was killed off in the Holocaust (I'm half Jewish), but I went to school with a guy whose grandfather was a Nazi. I felt no animosity towards him for that, aside from the fact that he WAS a total prick. If his personality had been better, then I don't see why we couldn't have been friends; but he was a stanch racist and hated anyone with Jewish lineage, so that put a end to that.

Earlier I was just stating that if I was to rank the movies now, they would go something like:

AOTC
ANH
ESB
TPM
ROTJ

With ANH getting bumped to number 2, as I mentioned before AOTC has greatly enhanced my enjoyment of ANH.

If you want me to rate which film is the BEST in terms of critical acclaim and movie history, then they go:

ANH
ESB
AOTC
TPM
ROTJ

All in all, just my opinion again. I know ANH gets the top spot, but the rest are up for interpretation.

mark2d2
05-25-2002, 06:42 PM
BIg Barada --- I don't quite know where you've been getting your info about the Arab nations on their views of homosexuality --- but they directly contradict all of my research. Egypt in particular has been making big news lately about how they've been rounding up gays and sentencing them with insanely harsh prison terms. If not in fact death.

All of my Travel Guides are quite explicit about the dangers of being "out" in these nations.

As far as Saddam and his many males lovers -- well, that's certainly news to me. Frankly, it sounds more like more lame b.s. homophobic propoganda. Us Gays are always getting saddled with the blame for these totally psycho dictators . . . Last Spring we supposedly spawned Hitler . . . And military sources regarding gay stuff is not exactly known for being trustworthy . . .

Anyway --- Empire Strikes Back is still the best!

bigbarada
05-25-2002, 06:56 PM
I think being exclusively gay is still banned in Arab countries but being heterosexual while still having sex with other males is just not talked about. My brother did say that he was offered sexual favors in exchange for giving an Egyptian soldier a ride off post, while he was stationed in Saudi; but that could have been just that one individual. I have talked to an Air Force sniper who says that he witness Hussein with one of his boyfriends; but I didn't even know the Air Force had snipers. Anyway, all my info can be dismissed as hearsay, since I don't have any firsthand experience and never read about it in any books so feel free to disregard.

A great, big, fat NEVERMIND.:)

ScarletX
05-27-2002, 08:40 PM
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Attack of the CLones
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace

oh yeah, i'm 27yo..... saw most of the series overseas!

Tycho
05-27-2002, 09:11 PM
Thanks for participating guys. It looks like Empire Strikes Back really has a special place in the heart of the fans!

EPISODE FIVE has now officially won the SirStevesGuide Fan Favorite Movie Pick!

If you feel inclined to further discuss The Empire Strikes Back, you are welcome to do so here or in our film section under The Original Trilogy.

Meanwhile, if you click above in our Polls section, we are busy determining all of your combined votes for the next favorite Star Wars film as supported by SSG readers.

Vote for

TPM
AOTC
ANH
or
ROTJ

over there, under "Empire Won: Now which is your next favorite SW movie?"

There are at least 150 readers subscribed to this thread, many who requested a run-off tournament, and so it is going. So far, only about 30 people have voted. Similar to this poll, AOTC is still a leader by a large margin. But now fans of the Empire Strikes Back will be free to choose amongst the 4 remaining films and add their votes to determine the next favorite.

So go on over there, check it out, and have a good time!

-Tycho

Deoxyribonucleic
05-30-2002, 10:05 PM
My favorite in order as appears...

1. ESB
2. SW ANH
3. ROTJ
4. AOTC
5. TPM

I just can't shake the magic of the original trilogy!

:D

sir wilbur copeland
05-30-2002, 11:35 PM
Could someone please tell me how Empire rates #1? Has anybody here seen the other movies?

#1 - Attack of the Clones - after three viewings it's won my heart
#2 - Jedi - so much story so much action
#3 - Hope - The Original
#4 - Phantom Menace - Good Backstory
#5 - Empire - Totally awesome, but far from the top!

stillakid
05-30-2002, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by sir wilbur copeland
Could someone please tell me how Empire rates #1? Has anybody here seen the other movies?

#1 - Attack of the Clones - after three viewings it's won my heart
#2 - Jedi - so much story so much action
#3 - Hope - The Original
#4 - Phantom Menace - Good Backstory
#5 - Empire - Totally awesome, but far from the top!

Could someone tell me how AOTC rates #1? Hasn't anyone here seen ANH? ;)

2-1B
05-31-2002, 02:41 AM
LOL, sir wilbur - I think the whole point of this poll is for ESB fans to tell others why that film rates #1, it's for AOTC fans to tell others why that film rates #1, it's for ANH fans - well, you get my point! :D

sir wilbur copeland
05-31-2002, 08:40 AM
Thanks Caesar. You know, my whole family are star wars fanatics, and my brother and i have been arguing. He said that most serious star wars fans thought ESB was the best, and I was like "that's not true ...that's impossible" - He showed me this online poll which shaped up much like this one. So I went looking for a poll where the real Jedi voted and found this one and it was exactly the same. Go figure!

"You're all clear kid, now let's blow this thhing and go home!"

2-1B
02-01-2009, 04:33 PM
View Poll Results:
Which is your favorite Star Wars movie Now?

The Phantom Menace 23 1.32%
Attack of the Clones 568 32.66%
A New Hope 170 9.78%
The Empire Strikes Back 807 46.41%
Return of the Jedi 171 9.83%

Tycho, can you please change my vote to Revenge of the Sith?

Thanks. :)

Qui-Long Gone
02-03-2009, 10:22 PM
I guess I over thought AOTC because none of the Prequels - at least to me - are better than the originals.

1. Empire (although when I was a kid I hated that film, mostly because I didn't understand the drama going on between the characters).
2. Jedi
3. New Hope
4. Sith
5. Clones (barely)
6. Jar Jar's adventures (see forum name for reasons I like this movie)

Jargo
02-05-2009, 12:14 PM
1. Rotj
2. Anh
3. Tpm
4. Aotc
5. Ros
6. Esb
-7,000,000,000. Cw

Slicker
02-05-2009, 12:17 PM
You can really tell how dated this thread is when AOTC is the 2nd mostest favoritest movie.


It's good to see you got in on this poll, Jargo. And that's to mean this thread and is in no way indicative of sexual preference.;)

Jargo
02-05-2009, 12:23 PM
just poll dancin for ya's.