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Tycho
05-21-2002, 03:51 AM
How about this:

The Clone Wars have raged on for 4 bloody years. The Jedi are overwhelmed and desperate.

Whole planets are being destroyed.

In retaliation for Palpatine's martial law, Naboo is completely destroyed. The Gungans are wiped out.

The Naboo contingeant on Coruscant is still strong, still fighting though.

Senator Padme Amidala is 9 months pregnant with her unborn children (or child if it is unknown that they are twins). In light of the Clone Wars, she refuses to settle down and just lay still while she feels responsible in part, having worked to defeat the Army Creation Act that led the Republic to war (versus a diplomatic solution) so she tries her best to set things right as a Senator and the last of the Naboo. Her whole family has been wiped out - killed when Naboo was ravaged, and the reason why the twins don't live with their grandparents.

Representative JarJar Binks' played the fool and authorized an army that started a war which eradicated his people. He too is trying to set things straight and is totally ostracized and loathed by Amidala. The bridge he created between the Naboo and the Gungans with her is totally in ashes. He is more annoying than ever, constantly trying to make it up to her and help her. Only for Padme, irritable, as she's pregnant, to be more annoyed with JarJar than the audience (if that's possible).

Meanwhile, to stay close to his wife, Anakin Skywalker, EX-JEDI KNIGHT has been made advisor to the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, another of the last of the Naboo. He defends the people left from the world he held most dearest. But he resents the Jedi who expelled him for breaking the code and his oath, and he learns to feel hatred for them for their keeping him from saving his mother. He fails to understand WHY they let Shmi have a life, as Anakin thinks only of himself, still the whiny, emotionaly immature child that wants everything.

The Jedi meanwhile continue to fight for the Loyalists (including Bail Organa, an ally of Palpatines) against the Rebel Separatists. They command the Clones and Obi-Wan is made a General. But they are getting slaughtered. Having seen the Clone Troopers' superiority in a fight, the Separatists commission their own Clone Army funded by Count Dooku. They get a new donor who looks a lot like Harrison Ford. The orphaned Boba Fett needs to survive and takes command of these Clones to fight the perverse Republic that turned his father's clones against them and enslaved them to the Jedi. He dons Jaster Mureel's old armor - the man who Jango told his son about - the one who had saved Jango's life long ago. And Fett fulfills his father's destiny and leads an army of Mandalorian Clad Clones into battle. The Jedi and Republic Clones are getting slaughtered!

The Separatists have advanced to the Galactic Core and a great battle is being fought on Alderaan!

An urgent message from Obi-Wan Kenobi calls back to Coruscant and Palpatine's office: "Anakin Skywalker, years ago you served the Jedi Order as my Padawan. Now I beg you for your help in my struggle against the Separatists..."

Smug that 'OK, now he's NEEDED,' the greatest of all Jedi leaves Coruscant to fight his way to his former master in a pitched Starfighter battle that shows that Anakin is indeed the best Starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

Anakin rejoins his former Master and Anakin proves that he has not stopped learning about the Force. He has studied forbidden knowledge of the Dark Side from Sith artifacts that have fallen into his hands through his benefactor, Palpatine. With his newfound powers combined with Obi-Wan's, they duel and destroy Count Dooku! Before he dies, while he's fatally wounded, Anakin runs off when a transmission comes through by a desperate Padme Amidala!

The Trade Federation and Techno Union cower in light of these events, but the Mandalorians won't give up!

In a stealth strike on Coruscant, they hit the capital and capture the Loyalist Party leaders: Bail Organa, JarJar Binks, and the pregnant Padme Amidala! It is a spectacular mini-battle that pits the Chancellor's Royal Guards against the Mandalorians! But the Guardsmen are defeated, though they buy time for Palpatine to escape to a secret underground bunker in the firey bowels of Coruscant!

They are taken away as prisoners of war and held at some other location. Perhaps a conquered Corellia?

Meanwhile, as Dooku dies, he says he had joined the Sith to destroy them from within, but failed. He says all the lives lost in the Clone Wars would have been worth it if by going along with everything, he'd stopped the birth of a new age of evil and a Sith Empire, but he failed. He tells Obi-Wan that Palpatine is the real Dark Lord of the Sith. Perhaps he carries a holo-transmission to "prove it."

But the Mandalorian Clones have suffered severe losses too. Their youngest soldiers, some of them but only 11 years old, are needed to guard the prisoners while the adults do the fighting.

Anakin rushes back to Coruscant and security forces send him to Palpatine. He tells him that his pregnant wife and child / children were killed in the attack while Anakin was away helping Obi-Wan.
He tells Anakin that the war is going far too badly for the Republic and even Dooku's death won't make a difference against the Mandalorian Clones. He says that is because they are being led by the Jedi who concocted this whole thing as a conspiracy with Dooku so that they could sieze power. The Jedi High Council has been manipulating everything and Obi-Wan was blind if he could not see it. Everything he advised Anakin on led the younger Jedi astray and he was unwittingly a part of this whole thing.

Meanwhile Obi-Wan goes back to the Jedi to tell them what he's learned. He is instructed to find his former padawan as they will need everyone's help, especially if the boy really could be the Chosen One. Obi-Wan traces Anakin to the molten depths of Corusant and finds Palpatine!

He claims the Chancellor is the Dark Lord of the Sith and must be destroyed. Anakin blames him for Padme's death and the deaths of his unborn children and his mother, 4 years ago. He will not let Obi-Wan kill Palpatine, the last of those who have been good to him. And he thinks Obi-Wan is crazy - Palpatine is not the Dark Lord of the Sith. But Obi-Wan moves to fulfill his mission and Anakin's emotions come to a boil. The two square off and fight - Master vs. Former Apprentice. All of Anakin's rage surges, but his will to live is sapped, tears fall as he accuses Obi-Wan of preventing him from saving Padme. Anakin swears he himself is a failure and doesn't deserve to live, but he will make Obi-Wan pay for what he's done first. But his emotions do not allow him to concentrate, and the teary-eyed youth gets hit by Kenobi's saber again and again! Across the face, in back of the head. But Obi-Wan fights to defend. When Anakin loses his concentration, he falls over the edge, his arm cut off perhaps, and holding on with the other arm. His lightsaber slides away on the ground.

Obi-Wan rushes forward to save Anakin, forgive him for his mistakes. He offers Anakin his hand, but Anakin refuses to take it. Anakin loses his grip and falls plunging toward the lava! Obi-Wan wipes away tears and picks up Anakin's fallen saber - all he has to remember his former padawan by.

Obi-Wan turns, but Palpatine has escaped!

Meanwhile, Boba Fett moves to the forward command and confronts the late-Dooku's second in command - a traitorous Republic commander Tarkin. Tarkin receives orders from Darth Sidious, knowing he has lost Lord Tyranus to the Force. They will make a treaty with the Separatists to end this war, but the Loyalists must die. Alderaan must completely disarm and surrender to the Separatists so they can safely return to their systems, but their will be a new Empire born out of the rejoining of the Rebel systems and the Old Republic - one Sidious 'has assurances will be accepted by the war weary public.' Palpatine will preside 'benevolently' over a more direct, authoritative government that will allow the Separatists to remain in power and control their special interests to their own advantage. Tarkin accepts these conditions if he will gain power. Fett feels betrayed, but he's young and has no one else to pay his way in the galaxy. He is ordered to Corellia to kill the Loyalist prisoners.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan returns to the Jedi and tells some of them of the tragedy. His wounds severe, he cannot go on the rescue mission when intelligence learns that the Loyalists are still alive and being held prisoner.

Just then Chancellor Palpatine comes on the air and says the Jedi are responsible for the war. They took command of the Republic's Clones and Dooku led the rebellion. On top of that, Obi-Wan Kenobi just tried to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor and slayed Anakin Skywalker, Alderaan's hero and the Chancellor's protector, in the process. The Jedi must be purged and the Senate is completely corrupted, the Loyalists having been killed and the rest remaining suspect. He will push for a bold, new offensive against the Jedi, this will destroy their control over the Clones and end the war. He calls for all the Jedi to be lynched basically.

The Jedi assigned to the rescue mission must move quickly, because if saved, they can provide testimony to the Jedi's innocense!

Meanwhile, the orders come down to Corellia to kill the prisoners. A young Clone guarding them is in command and knows Fett is arriving soon. Padme has just given birth, and prior to the order, with no reason not to, the young Clone helped the Loyalists give her the medical attention necessary for the children to be born. Now he is ordered to simply kill them all!

He can't. He disobeys orders and tells them he'll provide them with a means of escape, weapons, etc. Padme asks why, and the young Clone says "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?"

They flee as Boba Fett arrives. Bail Organa grabs a blaster and defends Amidala, as JarJar pleads with her that it's not his fault. Bail and the young Clones are going to be quickly over-ran when the Jedi arrive!

Mace Windu commands them. Boba Fett recognizes this Jedi in particular! It's personal, but he makes a note that he has another score to settle with that young Clone who disobeyed his orders, too!

The Jedi and Mandalorians now fight it out! The Knights get to the Loyalists, then split up when Mace realizes that they have the children of Skywalker! If Anakin is dead, perhaps the children will bring balance to the Force? Mace will lead Fett away from them! To do so, he plays upon Boba's unprofessional hatred and Fett makes the mistake of going after Mace while Padme gets away. Mace allows himself to get cornered because it draws Fett after the target he's been longing for. But Mace is no longer there - he closes his eyes and disintegrates! Becoming one with the Force!

Meanwhile, Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon get Padme, Bail, and JarJar out of there. The young Clone is advised to run away and he does so. But where are the Jedi going to run to?

On Coruscant, the Jedi Temple is under attack! It's lynch mobs and police alike! Obi-Wan battles his way out of there and tries to get the Jedi children to safety. Yoda flees quietly in another direction, but senses a grave disturbance in the Force.

Anakin's body is on a ledge he fell on, just above the lava. He is NOT in the lava, but the heat is burning his skin and the air is (figuratively) setting fire to his lungs. He cries out in pain for Padme and collapses - we presume he's dead. A shadow falls across the body. Cut the scene.

Palpatine proclaims the main body of the Separatist forces are caving in without their Jedi commanders. He says they will sign a treaty to be under direct control of a New Order - one with the strength that can handle their dissent, and he will serve as an Emperor in a new government that will unite the galaxy to rebuild itself into a new golden age. A new Senate will retain power to one day restore the Republic when all the rebellions are put down, but meantwhile, someone the galaxy cantrust, Palpatine of course, will command over the reconstruction of this new galactic unity. Tarkin signs a treaty with him and is made a governor over the Separatists on the Outer Rim.

The new Emperor appears with a new Enforcer at his side - a persecuted Sith Lord, Darth Vader. The Sith were responsible Force-users the Jedi killed off or horribly maimed and betrayed because the Sith represented Order, but one where the Jedi would hold no power. Without Lord Vader, Palpatine proclaims, the Separatists would not have been convinced to surrender.

Meanwhile, Yoda meets Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, and the loyalists. He learns of the survival of the children of Skywalker and hears a final transmission recorded earlier by Mace. Yoda reconsiders the Prophesy. Bail insists on getting them to Alderaan, but the Core is blockaded. They have to take the Corellian Trade Route which runs out past Dagobah. There they will split up if followed. Yoda sends a transmission to Obi-Wan, only informing him of a rendezvous point.

Boba Fett, frustrated, begins to track them. Through Tarkin, Vader learns of his employ. Vader is obsessed to learn what happened to the Jedi on Corellia, as they must be destroyed - Palpatine convinced him so. When he meets Fett, he wants to kill him for what he presumes they did to his wife. But as Fett pleads for his life, Vader is intrigued to learn that the Jedi came there to protect a pregnant Senator and that they were rescued - the Mandalorians did not kill them as Palpatine 'mistakenly' thought. So Vader forces Fett to work as a hunter, tracking them. Slave-One picks up the trail and calls Vader in to Dagobah. They land with troops and begin to search the swamps. Fett waits in space, hoping for payment for his services.

The Jedi must split up again. Yoda and Plo Koon will stay behind while Ki-Adi Mundi gets Padme, Bail, JarJar, and the baby twins to safety as Darth Vader stalks them through the swamps. Yoda had stressed that the twins could hold the Chosen One and they must be split up so that at least one of them could survive.

Padme won't abide JarJar, so she and Leia go with Bail Organa. JarJar goes with Ki Adi Mundi.

Plo Koon is wounded and give into his fear and uses the Dark instincts native to his species. A spectacular battle begins but Plo ends up defeated and dies in the tree cave, while Yoda with superior skills, had took on all the Clone Troopers that Vader had commanded. When Vader returns from that awesome fight with Plo Koon, he finds the Loyalist ships gone, and assumes other Jedi that LEFT, killed the Clones.

Vader too leaves - to hunt them down!

Yoda remains behind. No ship is left to take him away. But he was shocked to observe Darth Vader from afar - there was something very familiar about him!

"Hmmm." Yoda says.

Meanwhile, Boba Fett detected the two Loyalist ships leaving Dagobah and chose to follow one. It's Ki Adi Mundi's. They are attacked and Ki has to land. The two of them must split up again, and Ki tells JarJar to take the baby and make sure he can get it to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

At the spaceport, Ki Adi Mundi prepares to slay Boba Fett, but instead of Fett, he faces Darth Vader! You know the outcome!

Obi-Wan Kenobi gets an urgent message pre-recorded from Ki-Adi Mundi. Kenobi has gotten some children to safety and told them to hide, make whatever life they can, remember to use their abilities for good, but never let on to anyone that they were ever Jedi, or they would be caught and put to death!

So Obi-Wan tracks Ki-Adi Mundi's signal to not Ki, but JarJar, who has a baby who he's told is the Son of Skywalker! Obi-Wan knows what THEY must do, when Ki-Adi Mundi's signal is traced - by Boba Fett! Knowing that he could never make things up to Padme for helping start this war, JarJar will help save her son by leading Fett away. It is assumed that the loyalist party that Vader is looking for is this one, as witnesses tell Fett that one of them had a baby! Fett tracks the signal to a ship (JarJar's) and destroys it as it takes off! (JarJar is totally blown to pieces!) Vader arrives on the scene and yells he wanted them alive! (Fett did have orders to kill them though) Vader turns to Fett and says "No disintegrations." Fett is stiffed by a curiously grieving Darth Vader, but threatened when he asks for payment that he will be paid by Vader sparing his life. Weary from his battles the Dark Lord returns to his new Master, Palpatine.

Padme, Bail, and baby Leia arrive on Alderaan. On this war ravaged planet that is being forced to disarm, rebuild, and repair, they stare up at the stars and wonder what the future will hold.

On a distant planet, circling two of those stars, Obi-Wan takes the baby Luke to the only living relatives he knows survived - Anakin's step-father and his family. But Cliegg has died from his wounds and Owen now runs the family farm with his young wife, Beru. They take the child from the Jedi, and following Owen's experience and character estimation of Anakin, tells Obi-Wan to get out of there and never bring his troubles back.

Obi-Wan Kenobi walks away, unable to stop the suns from setting.

The end.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 06:22 AM
Some other thoughts came up to add in to this - with some explanations for it. See what you think. Here it is:

Nothing is yet a spoiler or confirmed. No story or script yet exists for Episode 3. In the spoiler section I reposted this storyline so we can add or 'correct' stuff as we learn more, closer to 2005. In the meantime, I tried to be logical.

But I have no idea if Corellia is going to be in the film. When Padme is presumed dead, she and the loyalists have to be taken somewhere. And if Han Solo is ever established this early, he must somehow betray Boba Fett. Since Han thinks he's Corellian, it was a good place to start. He'll only get that bit part.

But one thing we've heard is that E3 is about betrayals. Fett and Han I just brought up. But perhaps Bail Organa starts to keep secrets from Palpatine - another betrayal. If Corellia is involved, the Senator Garm Bel Ibis could work into the picture - as this was TOLD to Timothy Zahn - that the origins of the Alliance were Corellia, Alderaan, and Chandrilla (but I still haven't worked Mon Mothma into this yet). Maybe Mace is still a betrayal, but his chance is thwarted unintentionally by a vengeful Boba Fett, who decides to strike just when it's lucky for Padme.

There are plenty of other flaws in my story I'm sure I or you all will find, but I think we need to see Alderaan at some point to care about it. I think Dagobah and Tatooine must be seen, but briefly. Coruscant is obvious. Why the twins aren't raised with Padme's family must be cited (though it could be just to protect her family by letting them believe she'd died - though that seems more cruel than leaving them dead - as well as Naboo). Corellia is the real question. I just threw it in there. I like the idea that they are moving the action into the Galactic Core Worlds though. The other movies take place on the Outer Rim or the Mid Rim.

The other thing is notice the big battle is at the beginning of the film. There are plenty of lightsaber duels and stalkings going on later, but the pace is slowing down and getting more personal so it can blend better with ANH. It will have a VERY ESB feel to it though. Finally, the Dagobah swamp is so dark and eerie, it makes sense that Vader should be stalking and doing his killing there.

If Padme kills herself towards the end of this movie, like the Romeo and Juliet theme I discussed earlier in another post in this thread, that could happen as a way for Bail Organa to escape and Padme just fakes she has her baby, while Bail actually does. She doesn't exactly commit suicide, someone else pulls the trigger, blows up her ship, or whatever - but it is presumed she had a child with her by the bad characters. Maybe, to keep Leia being a sister a surpirse for ROTJ, Bail and Padme split up, and his carrying Leia is NOT shown, and it is made to look like he possibly died too - and Padme, with an empty bundle - is killed next. Then when Yoda says in Empire "no - there is another" we are still confused WHO he means (if you pretend you haven't seen ROTJ yet).

Last but not least, Vader stalking through the dark mysts of Dagobah's eerie swamp trying to find out what happened to Padme is also paying tribute to Dracula, who searches for Elizabeth, his lost love. The only thing is will Vader want her to see him like that?

Another thought is that there could be two Vader costumes in E3 (maybe). One that does not look totally evil, but will appear that way for the Plo Koon fight. Then when he's sure he lost everything, when he returns to Palpatine, he puts on the 2nd outfit, the one we are all familiar with.

I'd rather not complicate things like that with the costumes.

But one last thing - in Empire, when Vader stalks after Luke, hunting him across the galaxy - it picks up right where he left off hunting for Padme - across the stars.

And when Luke encounters Vader on Dagobah in the vision sequence, we all will remember how fatal that was for Plo Koon!

Eternal Padawan
05-21-2002, 09:26 AM
I like the Mandalore/Royal Guard skirmish idea.

I think (as implied in AOTC) the Death Star will be under control of the Separatists and they'll destroy Palpatine/Amidala's home planet of Naboo. Nute gets his revenge, and the Emperor (secretly)destroys all his former ties.

I like the idea of Dooku being good, and trying to destroy the Sith from within. Perhaps Yoda sent him in undercover because as his former Padawan, he was the only one he trusted. Sidious gets wind of this betrayal and has Anakin and Obi Wan destroy Dooku, setting up Vaders rise to the station of Apprentice.

I also have to say, working young Solo into the film without even mentioning his name might work, but I think Lucas would have to ham-handedly whack the audience on the head with it. "Look! Han Solo! He's a little boy!" If that were true, during the escape/rescue sequence, the little boy would have to free a Wookiee and then... actually, leave Han Solo out of the film.

Tycho
05-21-2002, 09:47 AM
Han doesn't meet Chewbacca until he is 23 years old and an Imperial Officer (TIE Pilot).

Lucas would point to it on the Official Website that this IS Han.

Casting Harrison Ford as the aged mercenary that the Separatists decide to clone would also do the trick. Ford once said he'd do a cameo as a relative of Han's. Here's the chance. He's George Lucas' friend anyway.

I don't think the Death Star will be built during the Prequels. It hasn't been tested until it destroys Alderaan. They say so in Episode Four anyway. We might see it under construction.

I NEVER implied Count Dooku was a good guy. He is not. He is corrupted by the Dark Side. He was not sent by Yoda to infiltrate the Sith, that might have been his unorthodox plan on his own, he might have wanted to be on the winning side, he might plan to off Sidious and become the Dark Lord himself, thus he sends Obi-Wan after Palpatine, or he might just be jealous and as he dies, he doesn't want Palpatine to have it if he can't - or if he was betrayed by Palpatine. Obi-Wan is one of the best Jedi's capable of stopping him, so Dooku chooses to con Obi-Wan into being his instrument of revenge and poor Obi-Wan cuts down his own former padawan in the twisted scheme of things.

Darth Ovori
05-21-2002, 04:43 PM
It still does'nt explain how Anakin becomes the greatest fighter pilot during the clone wars...

Tycho
05-21-2002, 05:13 PM
Well, in my story, close to the beginning, Anakin has to fight his way past the blockade of Alderaan in order to join Obi-Wan and face Count Dooku.

So if no pilot could run that blockade, save for one ex-Jedi punk with a bad attitude and a pregnant wife at home, I'd say he handled all the circumstances well and Obi-Wan could use that as a measure of Anakin's skill as a pilot (besides off-screen adventures for the EU). Obi-Wan would still take pride in his student to tell his son that "dad was the best."

This brings up another thing. If we never see Anakin become Vader, which I think we won't, then when Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father was killed by a pupil of his, we'll all know he's lying right there. But if you were watching the "12 hour movie" for the first time, you might dismiss this as guilt - Obi-Wan not wanting to tell Luke that HE was responsible for his father's death, and blaming it on a visible figure of the Dark Side.

This can't be corrected in the OT - it's part of the storyline through ROTJ. But I think "the new audience" will dismiss it as Obi-Wan feeling guilty and not telling Luke the truth for that reason - not suspecting Luke's father is still alive until the Cloud City confrontation.

A'Sharad Hett
05-21-2002, 06:49 PM
My thoughts lately have focused on the dark cave in ESB on Dagobah, something must have happened there. I was always thinking it would be a Jedi battle. Something like, Vader vs Windu, Ki, and Plo. That'd be cool, it would show how good Vader is really supposed to be.

Darth Ovori
05-21-2002, 06:55 PM
I hope we will see Anakin become Vader, cause then it will leave a gap with the prequels...

I mean has stated that the OT was the back story of Anakin... And the prequels is about the story of Anakin becoming Vader, explaining why he turned to the dark side...

If we don't see him turn and become Vader, and it's left that he dies then it's pretty pointless... from a point of view...

Tycho your story is a nice work...

But I still do feel we need to see Anakin become Vader...
It would be cool to see him go berserk and develope his hate before donning the dark helmet...

Tycho
05-21-2002, 07:20 PM
When he thinks he lost his wife and unborn child, he goes beserk on Obi-Wan who has come to kill the Supreme Chancellor. I thought I gave him cause enough.

Did you notice I had Plo Koon dying at the hands of Vader in the tree-cave on Dagobah?

Was that enough?

Rogue II
05-22-2002, 07:07 AM
Whatever happened in that cave on Dagobah had to be bad. Someone evil must have died there. Didn't I read in Zahn's trilogy that there was still a dark side shadow where the Death Star II was destroyed around Endor's moon? So, something similar happened on Dagobah. I think your Plo Kloon idea might work.

Darth Ovori
05-22-2002, 10:29 AM
Sorry Tycho, I meant to say how I hope it will happen in the movie...

Tycho
05-22-2002, 06:39 PM
Something I just read in the new Insider's interview with George Lucas concerns me - and I'll add this information to the other 2 threads.

Lucas said that Darth Sidious can't just train another Sith Lord from his childhood like Darth Maul. He specifically sought to corrupt and turn a trained Jedi Master in order to turn Anakin. Lucas said that very specificially that Sidious is using Dooku to turn Anakin.

I once speculated that Dooku was Anakin's father. That there was no immaculate conception. Episode 2 would seem to confirm the latter. I'd guessed that Shmi would have told her son in her death scene and that the revelation would come there, sort of mirroring what happened in Empire. Then a situation would arise where a repeat of a theme in ROTJ would happen and it would play out "then strike him down and take your father's place at my side!"

Rather than see that directly in AOTC, we saw Dooku tempt Obi-Wan, "Join me and take your Master's place at my side" -referring to the dead Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan would not turn, but everyone (Tyranus/Dooku and we can assume Sidious/ Palpatine) now knows how volatile Anakin is. Plus if they've learned he's married, as Palpatine surely will, they will know how to get at him - through Padme, and to a lesser extent, through Obi-Wan (since Anakin rushed to rescue him). Of course Obi-Wan and Padme will be used as pawns in the Sith's attempt to turn Anakin, just as Han and Leia were used to lure Luke.

But why is Dooku specifically important in this? It could be so simple as to spark dissent concerning proceedure between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but it doesn't seem there needs to be any outside influence to do that, LOL. However, a focal point for Anakin's hatred if Dooku's soldiers are blamed for killing Padme? In my story, Dooku was the bait to take Anakin away from Padme's side so that Separatist forces could get to her while Anakin was engaged, lured by the chance to kill Dooku. Since Sidious is really manipulating these things, it makes some sense. Dooku might care less about Anakin, but he's not calling the shots anyway.

But could Dooku be Anakin's father? I made an effective case for that before but dismissed it because it was not revealed in Episode 2. I'll rehash those arguments in a minute, but here's some things that have to be added if it's possible.

1) Dooku doesn't know who Anakin Skywalker is, by name. He left before Obi-Wan returned with an apprentice, but he knew who Qui-Gon's apprentice had been. (Maybe they are going to CGI insert Dooku into Qui-Gon's funeral scene in TPM?)

2) Dooku might have had an illicit affair, like son - like father, but never knew that Shmi was pregnant, or believed she was dead and Palpatine discovered the truth about the whole affair when he researched Obi-Wan (because of Maul and Anakin), learned about Qui-Gon, which led him to Dooku where he made some amazing connections that even the audience hasn't yet. Remember, Palpatine knows everything. More than we do, at any rate.

3) Dooku doesn't know he was fighting his own son in Clones, nor does Anakin know about his father. This could be discovered after Anakin kills Dooku, or in between movies one of them learns the truth. Midichlorians and inherited skills and powers becomes validated through this.

4) Even if Anakin learns the truth, just as Luke Skywalker did, his father is guilty of trying to horribly kill his love interest (Padme - while Vader threatened Leia, even before Luke knew she was his sister, but perhaps that's the crux of the difference in why Anakin turns, and Luke doesn't - to protect the other sibling, who would have all the same powers and abilities Luke does - but is clearly not following the path to darkness. Anakin is alone. It's interesting why George makes Leia the sister and doesn't give the hero the girl in the end, right? Han could have been killed off.)

So the point is, Anakin knows and chooses to kill his own father. Like his mother once said, paraphrased, "[He] was no father. [He didn't] carry him. [He] didn't raise him." Dooku was not a part of Anakin's life, but he would destroy Obi-Wan and Padme - and Anakin's unborn child(ren) so Anakin has to hate him like he hated the Tusken Raiders who took his mother from him.

Perhaps Aurra Sing was hired to protect Anakin, because Dooku knew her and of her abilities. Another tie-in.

In my old story outline for this part (which like I said, I dismissed because no information about Episode 2 confirmed this and you think Shmi would have said something, or Dooku would have known he had a son???) but the plot points were something like this:

Dooku would be expelled from the Jedi Order.

They kept it a secret (him and Shmi)

Because he was a Jedi, his family was targeted by enemies (possibly) and his girl's parents were killed and she was sold into slavery with her 3 year old child (Anakin).

Dooku believed they were dead.

He told no one of this.

Qui-Gon was not his apprentice at this time:

1) Anakin was 9 in TPM, so when he was born that many years prior to that, Obi-Wan (24 in TPM) would have been 15. Jedi are apprenticed at age 13. So Obi-Wan would be with Qui-Gon, 35 yrs old then.

Therefore Qui-Gon would probably have been a Jedi Knight for 10 years beyond the time he'd trained with Dooku. Qui-Gon would have no knowledge of what his former master was doing, save for running into him on occasion at the Temple, and maybe they wrote each other.

2) Dooku would not have told Qui-Gon that he messed up with Shmi. They were keeping it a secret, right?

3) If he loved Shmi, and they were intimate, he would have told her about the life of a Jedi - about Qui-Gon Jinn, his one-time apprentice.

4) Shmi would know exactly WHO Qui-Gon was when her son brought him home from Watto's shop that day before the podrace. So when Anakin won his freedom, that is the reason she let her only son leave with Qui-Gon, Jedi Knight or not. (I mean don't the Jedi have to go through some kind of legal adoption process anyway?) So while Qui-Gon didn't know who Shmi was, there was something familiar to him about Anakin - well, duh: he was his former master's son.

But why would George make no mention of this in Episode 2 if it was true? That part of the plot is moving slower than ANH-ESB, when Vader was trying to kill Luke (in his TIE fighter) and didn't know he had a son. It's true these revelations would take 10 seconds during Episode 3, but the guilt and reprocussions could manifest themselves in a black mask! Hmmmm.

It makes you think. E3 would then really be a sensory overload!

Eternal Padawan
05-22-2002, 07:38 PM
Without even some kind of subtle (or not so subtle) hinting from George in Episode II. (A double take from Dooku or something when he sees Anakin) I don't think there will be any revalatory scenes like in ESB (how can you top it?, any attempt would be ham handed and futile and obvious) I think the reasoning behind luring Dooku to the dark side is to give Anakin a precedent when he decides to do it.

I think I've figured out how Palpatine turns the galaxy against the Jedi (they are spying on the senate after all) but how Lucas will use Dooku to get Anakin to turn is intriguing and I haven't seen any solid reasoning for it yet. I eagerly await Episode III.

Tycho
05-22-2002, 09:51 PM
The Clone Wars are ravishing the galaxy and Yoda took command of the Clones. Center on the fact that Dooku commands the Separatists and they are fighting agressively in this war, noting that Dooku WAS a Jedi, and you can blame the whole thing on them - artificially creating a war so they can take control. Plus with Obi-Wan attempting to assasinate the 'innocent' Supreme Chancellor, there's the proof!

Palpatine takes his own scheme and pins it on the Jedi.

Brilliant!

Eternal Padawan
05-22-2002, 11:08 PM
IF Obi Wan attempts to kill Palpatine. That Palpy is a sneaky little monkey, I'll admit.

Tycho
05-22-2002, 11:35 PM
We have a new problem here. Part of it has to do with a hole in my Han Solo is a clone theory, so bear with the analysis of that until we get to a hole in the whole prequel's FACTUAL continuity as established by TPM and AOTC!

Yup.

This has to do with exactly who Darth Tyranus is and how long he's been working with the Sith. I think I've uncovered evidence that he had to be there BEFORE Darth Maul was killed.

More than 2 there are - from a certain point of view...

take a bite into this - think about the implications not just for Han, but for Dooku. This could help speculation on Sifo-Dyas possibly, too (though I've yet to see how).

Here it is:


There's the idea that a lot of the Stormtroopers from the Classic movies are enlisted, volunteers, and forcibly recruited from across the galaxy.

Maybe the best of the best are still Clones, but that doesn't mean that they are from Han's template either. He STILL could be a Clone made back in the days 29 years before ANH.

Hmmm. Which means either Han had growth acceleration, or there was another cloning project going on at the same time as Kamino's, because Han couldn't possibly have been grown AFTER the Jedi took command of Kamino's Republic Clones. He looks way older than 22. If there age acceleration is geometric, that could solve this problem.

Anyway if Boba was started perhaps 2 years before TPM, Han had to be started about 3 years after TPM. But Jango would still be the donor, alive and well then....

So, 3 years after Maul died, did Palpatine tell his new apprentice Dooku, that in 'x' amount more years, he (Dooku that is) would need his own clone army? So Dooku got one going for the Separatists?

Also, something else doesn't make sense. If Tyranus replaced Maul, but recruited Jango Fett "on one of the moons of Bogden" a long enough time ago for Boba to be at least 12 in AOTC (no growth acceleration on Boba), than Tyranus was involved in this thing BEFORE Darth Maul died!

Interesting. Very interesting. Or the Clones were unrelated to the Sith plot until Palpatine found out about them after Maul died. But I doubt that. Palpatine's role is to know everything....

Hmmm. A new puzzle we have here, regardless if Han is or is not a Clone....

Croaker
05-23-2002, 07:58 AM
Some nice thoughts on Ep III.
there does seem to be a lot of EU stuff in there though.
(I'm not personally a fan of it.)
And we have seen before how Lucas does his own thing and ignores the EU material.

Tycho
05-24-2002, 12:31 AM
Thanks for the compliments.

Now onto something I don't understand:

Hmmm. Specifically, what part is EU?

The Han Solo part is just balanced with the EU. Lucas established rules if you want to play in his universe (an author) and you can't do certain things - like have Padme have a child born before Luke and Leia maybe. Or have Luke join the Imperial Academy and then get kicked out. You can't negate facts that will appear in the movies. So certain parts of Han Solo's life could not be elaborated on because the authors were being watched by Lucasfilm continuity specialists. So they must know the reasons WHY and if Han can have a grandfather and cousin, than that would only be allowed if it doesn't negate something that will happen in the larger sceme of things - the films.

Anything not Solo-related that also seems Expanded Universe to you?

Croaker
05-24-2002, 07:38 AM
It was mostly the Han thing and the reference to Jaster Mareel.

Croaker
05-24-2002, 07:40 AM
I guess it perhaps because I'd like to see all of the stormtroopers still be clones. At some point the have to realize that they aren't all that bright and recruit humans to be officers. (The ones we see in the OT)
It is also possible that all of the tie pilots are also from the clone army.

starwars92590
05-24-2002, 10:05 PM
Anakin does no know about the twins!

zigga94
05-26-2002, 08:05 PM
awesome story!! somebody told me to check out your story, they said it was pretty darn good. they def were right, i really liked it a lot, i can't wait for the actual E3, and i hope Lucas can whip something good up as fast as you did.

Tycho
05-27-2002, 03:53 AM
Thanks Zigga. I appreciate the compliments.

Since this is the spoiler thread, I wanted to note that my friend Doug 'dug' up a recent interview with Lucas who seemed to say several things that shot holes in my theories.

I'm able to take criticism and even self-inflict it. Since this is Lucas' story, I definitely have to.

1) Lucas supposedly said Anakin is away fighting the Clone Wars for so long, he does not know Padme was pregnant. (since these movies take place over the course of a day and a night, or about a week in the life of our heroes, Padme is going to have to REALLY be ready to give birth from the start of our movie! 9 months pregnant, or whatever it takes in their galaxy for normal Naboo children.

This strikes me as bad because he left his mother to take his Jedi responsibilities seriously and she ended up dying. He swears on his mother's grave that he won't fail ever again. He makes a commitment to Padme and professes complete love and devotion, then he isn't even in contact with her enough to know she's pregnant? Over 9 months he doesn't call once? It's OK if he's a P.O.W., but I don't think so. And if he does call, she doesn't tell him?

Finally, we saw the death of his mother upset him emotionally enough to enrage him to murder. Obviously, he has to believe Padme has died before she really does, but it drives Anakin crazy anyhow. If she dies while carrying their unborn child, that makes it even more tragic. We're looking to create the biggest impact to push him over the edge here. It's about character motivation. Obviously it will take even more than this, but this is the last straw. If he knows she was pregnant, it is a much harsher tragedy for him to mishandle.

2) Lucas upheld the immaculate conception business (supposedly). Morally defined, (from a certain point of view) a Father is someone who is responsible and raises their children. But we have Shmi say, "There was no father. I carried him, I raised him, I can't explain what happened." If someone can't explain something, does it always mean it's because they don't know? Could she have been hiding something? How would Anakin take it if she were even hiding something from him all these years, then died without telling him? What if Dooku is the father and Anakin (or Obi-Wan) has killed him? Murdering his own father plus the loss of his wife who was with-child). Or even if Obi-Wan does it? Now what if Dooku didn't mean to be evil? He was infiltrating the Dark Side on a secret mission that maybe only Mace knows of. Obviously it turned Dooku pretty bad, but Anakin will see the good in him - a recurring theme - and blame himself or Obi-Wan for his father's death. One more straw. The story is more powerful that way.

Anyway, can anyone else confirm this? That emmaculate conception stands (as in an interview done AFTER May 16?) And has anyone read that Anakin NEVER knows Padme was pregnant - as stated by George Lucas?

Please let us know!

Croaker
05-27-2002, 09:00 AM
I read the immaculate conception interview as well.
It was probably the same one that you are referring to.

When I first heard that in the movie it amde me think that the whole thing was suddenly gettting a lot more christian.
Immaculate conception, father-son sacrifice, the living force has a will...

That was one of the things that I liked about the OT, a non-deist religion.


And Tycho - I still don't like the idea of Han being a clone. Or really an imperial pilot. Nothing in the movies suggests that.
But to each his own.
We'll hopefully get all of these questions answered in a few years :)

matt_ox
05-27-2002, 09:49 AM
Hey guys-
I don't understand how Obi-wan could assassinate Palpatine when in AOTC they talked as if a Jedi could never assassinate anyone. Would anyone like to shed some light on this for me? Thanks

Tycho
05-27-2002, 11:30 AM
Jedi kill Sith.

Obi-Wan had something even more personal at stake after Maul slayed Qui-Gon. He killed the apprentice, now he'll have at the one who gave the younger Dark Lord his orders, namely the Master - and Dooku or whoever else has crossed the line and gone over to the other side.

Many more lives and their state of liberty and happiness is at stake.

The terms "Bringing Balance to the Force" and "serving justice upon the Sith" mean the same thing as ASSASINATING Palpatine (a.k.a.) Darth Sidious. It depends from which side you are hearing the story. Palpatine is a politician as most great leaders are effective at moving the polity (public). He'll spin an attempt by Obi-Wan in whatever light that will bring him the most sympathy.

Poor, defenseless Chancellor only trying to bring peace and order to the galaxy, ruthlessly attacked by a Jedi murderer after the illicit revolutionists illegally had clones manufactured and are using them to conduct a 'faked' war just as an excuse so they can force Jedi Law onto the galaxy!

Does it sound like a familiar scheme? Only somebody else is playing that? But it's handy to have somebody to blame it on. So publically he calls for the arrest and trial (and death sentence) for the Jedi, "for the public good." There are 10,000 Jedi Knights, spread out on 5,000 worlds controlling 5,000 Separatist movements which are all to begin receiving droids and weapons from the Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan, etc. all who are making a profit by selling them this stuff. Weapons are made for only one reason - and people are dying. Blame the Jedi. Get rid of them and their control over the clones, and you bring peace and order. Get rid of the commercial guild leaders (many who are aliens) and there are trustworthy humans like friends of Palpatine's who are waiting to make your life a little better.

You know the Jedi caused all of this, don't you? Count Dooku was a Jedi. He must have been working in secret with someone as reviled and evil as Master Yoda or Mace Windu because he would never be secret allies with "the galaxy's saving angel, Sir Palpatine."


As to the immaculate conception thing, Star Wars is not turning "more Christian." I've read that Lucas said he was not a Christian, but spiritual and had his own private beliefs in a God. That doesn't mean that Christianity wasn't created to mirror mythology, or that since it all follows along certain story-telling patterns, that this tale and the others that came before it don't sound alike. They do. But like Christ's birth circumstances could be a lie, so can Anakin's. George could get harsh here and change the story to split from Christianity and go this route - Anakin's real father being kept secret, the immaculate conception theory propogated (by Qui-Gon, not Shmi who just did not answer a direct question with all the specific facts in her answer). Or he could leave it a mystery. We can love Shmi without trusting her. There are things we keep to ourselves and wouldn't tell our children. Do your wives discuss their past boyfriends before you with your children? Especially if they are 9 years or younger or they are on their death bed with an adult child they haven't seen in 10 years? Other topics seem more relevant for the last things you'd tell your own children.

Of course the alternative route is that Anakin mirrors Christ in almost every way, but his resurrection is as Darth Vader - a figure of evil. While I don't want this to become a religious debate, I can tell you while I doubt Christ's resurrection and being the Son of God, etc. and think it was faked, I don't doubt that Jesus Christ was a real person in history and he was a good man. He was not evil. So even if you don't believe in Christ, you can believe in his moral values and you would not see him as being evil. So why resurrect Anakin as someone evil? Christ was good until he was crucified, Anakin was evil until he self-crucified himself to destroy the Emperor to save his son. Plus Christ was supposed to be innocent, and Anakin fathered two children with a girl who was forbidden to him.

I don't see enough similarities and I think it's a bad comparison - regardless of religious beliefs or George Lucas' religious beliefs.
Finally, just because you like Star Wars and are a Christian, does not mean that George has to be a Christian, nor anyone else that you are friends with. We had a 400+ post thread in the General forums in one religious debate between atheists and Christians, and it had to be closed for reasons I still don't agree with. We don't need to start another one here. People don't convert faiths over the internet, so please discuss Star Wars. I don't care what your faith is or what you personally believe. I also don't mean to sound offensive, just honest and truthdful - values I have. I want people to always know where I'm coming from.

matt_ox
05-27-2002, 01:06 PM
Thanks, that clears it up some.

Croaker
05-27-2002, 02:10 PM
Sorry to bring that up.
I just remember Lucas saying in an interview that if the Star Wars movies led people to God that was a good thing.
That scared me.
(My opinions are pretty similar to yours. And that's the last I'll say on the topic.)

About the bringing balance to the force -
Anakin does restore balance to the force. By the time he is finised (and we go into ep IV) there are 2 Jedi - Obiwan and Yoda and 2 sith - vader and the emperor. Sounds pretty balanced to me! ;)
And I always liked the idea that the force was separate from moral concerns.

Obi wan attacking Palpatine is possible - but it stikes me as the kind of fight that only one person walks away from.
Your interpretation of his spin on the whole thing is very good.

Jedi Clint
05-27-2002, 03:59 PM
Balancing the force has nothing to do with the amount of Jedi or Sith in existence. It has to do with the amount of influence they have on existence as a whole. Palpatine has pushed the force out of it's utopian balance slightly prior to and throughout the Star Wars saga. When Anakin kills Palpatine in ROTJ his influence on the force is eliminated and things begin to return to a balanced state of being. If it mattered how many Jedi or Sith existed to balance the force, then it was out of balance at the end of the saga because Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker wasn't dead.

Tycho
05-27-2002, 06:23 PM
...unless there was a surviving Sith. And then, sorry to pull EU into this, Luke's training of other Jedi would all be throwing the Force out of balance.

I agree with JEDI CLINT that this prophesy does not have to mean absolute numbers. If the Jedi had known earlier, there would be NO Sith. They would have 'offed the Old Man and his tattoo-freak kid."

When Mace and Yoda are talking to Obi-Wan in the Jedi Halls while Anakin's with Palpatine (asking about getting the Chancellor's help with Padme no less), Mace and Yoda talk about Anakin and restoring a balance as a positive thing.

It still does conveniently break down into Vader/Palpatine and Obi-Wan/Yoda then Luke/Yoda in the OT. And they might mean 'practicing Jedi,' however, I don't think the conversation would have been as positive if it went this way:

Obi-Wan: "I'm concerned about my young padawan. His abilities have made him arrogant."

Yoda: "Find his own path Skywalker must."

Mace: "Yes, he's the only one who can make sure that we all die, all the Jedi are wiped out, and then when there's only Anakin left, so he can finally kill those gosh-darn-hard-to-find Sith!"

then it would get hokey...

Obi-Wan: "Well Anakin's out across town right now. If we want to get started on this, now's our opportunity. Master Yoda, Master Windu, quick! Help me blow up this temple and we'll all die heroically so there will be less Jedi and Anakin can then just concentrate on getting rid of the Sith!"

I think the prophesy might be true that there will be a huge reduction of Jedi unti there are balancing numbers 2 on 2. However, is it possible that the Jedi have misinterpreted it to mean what Jedi Clint and I both found more palitable?

Like anything, religion can be open to interpretation and misunderstanding. Maybe it was the Jedi's downfall that they misinterpretted the prophesy?

The other thing is maybe if we believe in something, we find a way to make it happen. Maybe Mace, or anyone who betrays the Jedi (not certain he will), but maybe Dooku or especially the Sith think the balace will be that literal reduction in numbers, and they are finding a way to make it happen (or live in fear that it will happen)? Maybe they think Yoda - that 'ol man's kind of lost it? We need a younger generation''s more modern interpretation of things and it's worse than anyone imagined?

Croaker
05-28-2002, 11:32 AM
That's kind of like what I always thought.
that the Jedi had their own interpretation of the prophecy - which just happened to be the wrong one.
They can only understand it (how it really came to pass) in retrospect - bu then again the only ones left to realize this are the ghosts of Obi and Yoda!

And about the Mace betrayal thing - I don't think that he will, but I had just misread something and I thought it said "Darth Mace" - and then I thought about it.
His name does fit into the naming scheme. Mace as in the weapon.
(Darth Windu however dosen't work) ;)

Tycho
05-31-2002, 06:27 PM
There's a lot going on in this section now. I was kind of miffed that my plot synopsis got buried while the thread that linked to the really false one (with a multiple Sith Lord Council, etc - in the likeness of SuperShadow's typical spoiler postings) was more hotly debated.

That was posted by ScoopGuy who I don't think is with our site any longer. But he kind of put that in a section here on SSG as some kind of evidence of fact, as it said "story by George Lucas" before the story was ever written down by George (he's still working on it now). But in any case, it is a perfect example of how these things can get out of hand.

Tycho
06-05-2002, 04:14 PM
I did a "proof" that Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order and you Will NOT see him become Darth Vader

OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

Croaker
06-07-2002, 09:04 AM
The only problem here is that the 'I am your father' secret has been out of the bag for 22 years.
I don't think that they can realistically expect that it will be a surprise for anyone.

Eternal Padawan
06-09-2002, 09:33 AM
I agree. I can't see sacrificing a big plot point in Episode III for a plot point in ESB that only works ONCE. Every time you see ESB after that, you know Vader is Luke's dad. So Anakin WILL become Vader onscreen. All these diversionary tactics Lucas is trying for seems wasted. Multiple Vaders etc.

After rereading Tycho's plot again, it looks like the entire kidnapping subplot is worked in there so li'l Han Solo can say "Perhaps you'd like it back in your cell?" And the whole Han Solo subplot seems conditional on the tenuous suppostion that Harrison Ford would cameo in the third film.

Anakin not a Jedi? Then what was the point of them wedding in secret if they were just going to be found and he resigns between films? The foreshadowing in AOTC suggest that their lie destroys them. So Anakin will still be a Jedi in Episode III.

I still don't buy the Obi Wan as an assassin thing. Even if it's Palapatine manipulating the truth, seeing Obi Wan walk in and whip out his lightsaber to make a killing blow seems against his character. I dunno.

And it feels like to many of the supporting Jedi are getting a lot of screen time which I don't think will happen. All these characters getting split up by contrived circumstances. Pretty soon you'd be cutting between ten different characters and not really getting involved with any of them.

Obi Wan's second apprentice is an intriguing monkey wrench. But again, all of this deception is dismissed as 'a certain point of view' in ROTJ so there's no need to complicate it with uneccessary characters (like a second apprentice.) Hmmmm...

"Disturbing this is. Meditiate on it I will."

zigga94
06-12-2002, 01:19 PM
WOW!!!! my brain is starting to hurt after reading all of that......good job with that analyzing and all that, i have been thinkin the same stuff, i just couldn't put it all into words, theres a lot of things that just aren't lining up right, so it should be interseting to see how lucas pulls this one off....:)

billfremore
06-12-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Croaker
The only problem here is that the 'I am your father' secret has been out of the bag for 22 years.
I don't think that they can realistically expect that it will be a surprise for anyone.

This is true for the rest of us who have watched these films thirty kajillion times.

But for those generations who haven't been born and will watch the saga from episode 1 to episode 6. Lucas does need to keep the fact anakin is vader secret to have the utmost shock value in empire for all the new fans.

That's just good storytelling.

So I think it will be highly unlikely we see Anakin getting fitted for a brand new vader suit...

DarthKenobi
06-12-2002, 06:30 PM
I don't know if this has been worked over before or not but this is something that has been bugging me.

Everyone knows how Obi-Wan gave his "from certain point of view" speech to Luke in the original movies about how Vader turned to the dark side betrayed and killed Luke's father...blah blah blah...but then he said Anakin turned to the dark side and betrayed...blah blah blah...and "from a certain point of view" you can see how he did kill his father...blah blah blah....

Now I keep reading how Obi-Wan and Anakin are supposed to fight and Anakin will fall into a lava pit and become Darth Vader after being reconstructed or whatever. Is this the "official" storyline from George Lucas or did this come out of a book or just speculation or something?

If it is only speculation, how about speculating on this...

Episode III we see that Anakin is not turning out exactly like Sidious has expected. He is not a model Jedi but is not so easily turned to the dark side either. When it comes to wiping out the Jedi, Anakin just can't do it and starts to see that what he is doing is bad. But wait!!! Sideous has already predicted this and has already produced a totally loyal and faithful clone of the powerful young Jedi we know as Anakin. They fight and Anakin2 kills Anakin1 and becomes Darth Vader...From a certain point of view.

Just a thought

DeadEye
06-12-2002, 09:08 PM
Congratulations on your first post. Here's your complimentary duct tape and Jar Jar Binks action figure. :)

Now, your speculation has merit, but then what would Episode III be called? Attack of Another Clone?

Tycho
12-31-2002, 11:34 AM
I wanted to know what people thought of my theories today, since the last post in this thread was some time ago.

neonblade
12-31-2002, 05:13 PM
THAT SOUNDS AWSOME

Dark Knight
01-01-2003, 02:13 PM
I liked your theories. I don't know if lucas will use them but why not.:D

JediDBM
01-01-2003, 05:51 PM
Hello Tycho and all of the other wise Jedi who have contribute to this possible story line. There are truely some brilliant concepts given here. I can and do agree with a lot of what has been speculated, but I dont agree with the Dooku/ Shmi "affair" that Dooku is actually Anakin's father. I think the immaculate conception theory should be left alone. I am curious about your theory of Dooku being used to convert Anakin (I know you said George Lucas said that), but that goes against the conversation that Yoda and Mace Windu have at the end of TPM. Only two sith at one time, a master and an apprentice, no more, no less. It would have to happen in the same mannor as ROTJ. "Kill Dooku, and take his place at my side". Maybe Palpatine only needs Dooku to do his dirty work, to push the imperial senate in the direction that will give Palpatine the ultimate power he seeks and long enough to turn Anakin. Once Anakin has completely turned, feed Anakin a line that Dooku helped Nute Gunray kill Padme.
My only other disagreement has to be with the idea of Han Solo being a clone. If I had not read the Han Solo triligy maybe, but the Han Solo triligy tells of Han being a small boy and being a type of slave to a ships captain along with other small children. By the way, an excellent set of books (Han Solo triligy) if you have never read them. Highly recommended, could even be movies themselves! A take off from the prequels. Very good reading, introducing Lando and Chewbaca, how Han Solo becomes a smuggler for Jabba, and how Lando loses the Falcon to Han. Explaining comments like in ESB: Lando, "you've got a lot of guts coming here after what you pulled." And Han Solo responding to Chewbaca on their way to Bespin, "well that was a long time ago, I'm sure he has forgotten about that".
Sorry, got sidetracked there. It really is a good storyline that you have put together, just had to give my opinion about those issues: Dooku/ Shmi, Anakin and Han Solo. Can't wait for the release of Episode III, so many things have to be tied together all in about two hours;) . May the Force be with you.

Tycho
01-01-2003, 08:03 PM
Oh I read those Han Solo Trilogy books - in fact they still are THE BEST Star Wars books I've ever read. I know all about Han's first girlfriend Bria Tharen and how she went Rebel on him. I loved the Togorrians like Murrgh and feared the t'landa Til like Teroenza, the first crime lord to put a price on Han's head and hire Boba Fett to hunt him (but not the last!).

They do not contradict Han's being a clone theory. Han would be 11 years old in Episode 3. If (in my story line) he disobeys the orders to execute Amidala and her babies, he will be likely executed. He has to flee and winds up on the streets of New Cove City, Corellia (at least I think it was New Cove) and that's where Garris Shrike, the Corellian slaving-and-pirate captain finds him. Events in the Han Solo books follow. His earliest experiences that are more elaborated on take place when he was 15 and he collided with Dengar during a swoop bike race, where the older boy was seriously injured and required bionics to become whole again - etc. etc. etc. Then Han, once "grown for order and discipline" escapes a life of crime and it seems natural for him to like the order and respect of life as an officer of the Empire. He sees them as the law and agents of justice to crush the Hutt crime organizations. Later when he helps them enslave a Wookiee, he sees them for what they truly are - and at age 24 Han frees Chewbacca. Then the Brian Daley stories start when he's 25 until he's 27. etc. etc. until he's 29 and Luke and Ben walk into the bar.

There's no contradiction, and yes those books would make an even better movie series than the Thrawn trilogy - especially given the actors' ages now (when they could only make a post-NJO movie).

In the meantime, back to Anakin - if the Jedi know from his midichlorian tests that he is Dooku's son and don't tell him this - he will hold it against them for allowing him to murder his own father - on top of everything else we've been discussing. I think that's the perfect straw to make him snap. Obi-Wan may have never known, but Anakin's not sure about that. But the Council knows.

Also Dooku was perfect to infiltrate the Sith:

He can avoid interfering in his son's training altogether if he left 10 years ago (when Anakin came to live in the temple).

He can destroy the Sith to protect his son's future - even if he can never be a father to him.

He is Yoda's former padawan - a prize Darth Sidious just cannot resist - a chance to cloud Yoda's feelings and make THE Jedi Master second guess himself.

Mace is in on this because Mace has all the suspicious looks and hesitations, suggestions just opposite of what Yoda thinks, etc. in the movie. Check out their looks in both TPM and AOTC!

MACE IS A GOOD-GUY TOTALLY - but he is not following the ways of the Jedi Council. Sifo-Dyas might've gone bad - or even been in on this - and Mace's padawan. We never have learned who Mace's master was, or who his padawan was. Dooku stepped in and took over. Sifo-Dyas might've been caught being bad by Dooku, and killed by Dooku, or he might've been killed by Darth Maul before Maul was killed by Obi-Wan. I'm still waiting for more clues about that.

But Sidious is aware that Tyranus is not a real Sith - hence the two-Siths-at-a-time thing is not violated. He is aware that Dooku is trying to infiltrate his plans, and using him, so Palpatine is using Dooku back. It is a high stakes game of chess being played by the Masters - and with that in mind:

YODA KNOWS THAT PALPATINE IS THE DARK LORD! What is he going to do? Kill the Supreme Chancellor openly? Yoda's too smart to make that mistake - though in my story Obi-Wan is naive enough to try it of course - and highly emotionally affected by it too because it's his former Padawan that Palpatine is messing with.

This thread doesn't actually go into my Obi-Wan's 2nd (SECOND) padawan theory too much. It must be in a different thread. But because I have Anakin quitting the Jedi Order, presumably because somewhere along the lines, his marriage is found out, and the amount of Masters who died already in the Wars, Obi-Wan is called upon to train another.

This one is jealous because Obi-Wan has a deeper bond with Anakin, and the two padawans have met before and don't like each other. According to Jedi lore, Padawans are apprenticed at age 13. That means the new Jedi will be 17 in Episode 3. Anakin will be 23. This is important.

Assume everything goes down as I described in my story at the first post in my thread. I'm back at the beginning of my movie.

During the opening battle, before Obi-Wan calls to Anakin to come help him, the new Padawan gets separated from Obi-Wan and goes missing-in-action.

There are 2 parts to this story:

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED - padawan #2 was probably killed. Probably happened. He might've survived, but it's not necessary for the plot to work. We just cannot be shown final evidence that he died.

WHAT THE AUDIENCE THINKS HAPPENED: - padawn 2 got captured or became wounded and MIA, but is definitely alive.


Part 2: Anakin has just given up on life and been defeated in a terrible duel with Obi-Wan. His lungs are burning up and he's dying.

WHAT COULD HAPPEN: Padawan 2, still alive, and searching for his master, tracks Obi-Wan back to the Ani-Obi-duel-site, and can't find Obi-Wan. Perhaps he thinks Anakin killed him, or perhaps he's just still jealous of Anakin, he ignites his lightsaber to finish off the dying Anakin himself! He might have - it's unclear - but suddenly padawan 2 is felled by Palpatine's dark side lighting! This gives visual confirmation Palpatine is a Sith, and lets him zap somebody!

Now Padawan 2 has been subjected to the power of the dark side and could have been enslaved to Palpatine, given the circumstances.

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED: Padawan 2 was either dead an hour ago at the begining of the movie - or he just died here for sure - but we weren't shown that. Anakin lived and was made into Darth Vader, but we're not shown that.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN:

Luke is told that an apprentice of Obi-Wan's killed his father.

This is now 'possibly' true.

Luke and a new audience believes Anakin is dead.

Darth Vader reveals to Luke that he IS Anakin Skywalker! Surprise!

A 12-hour movie pulls out its biggest 10th hour surprise! In retrospect of E1-4, Empire Strikes Back - the climax of the whole 12 hour movie (because ROTJ is the resolution) is the greatest shocker of ALL of the films. Save for this:


Whoever Darth Vader is, he is one of two possible past apprentices of Obi-Wan Kenobi, right?

In Episode 3, Vader will kill Jedi holding a lightsaber, then in the end, he will confront Kenobi holding a baby - the son of Skywalker. Vader - no matter which apprentice he is, does not want to be evil! He is doing what he is doing because he is forced to obey Palpatine. But having been shown mercy by Obi-Wan - no matter which one of Obi's apprentices he is (and of course he's really Anakin) HE LETS OBI-WAN KENOBI GO WITH THE BABY!


Darth Vader knows who Luke Skywalker is and exactly where he lives (with the Lars - because HE may have suggested it!) NEW SHOCKER FOR YOU!

ROTJ: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

THIS LINE DOES NOT SAY:

VADER DIDN'T KNOW HE HAD A SON.

THIS LINE DOES NOT SAY:

THE EMPEROR DID NOT KNOW VADER HAD A SON.

All it says is that Luke was hidden from the Emperor when he was born.

A DEAL WAS STRUCK: Vader (the Chosen One) would serve the Emperor with full-commitment, as long as the Emperor leaves the rest of his family alone.

Obi-Wan was supposed to stay in exile, watch over Luke, and not be training Jedi to interfere with the Empire's control.

"You should not have come back!"

versus what? "I thought you were dead by now?" - that was Tarkin who doesn't know anything. Vader did know. It was his secret and the Emperor's insurance policy!

Otherwise, why not change Luke Skywalker's name? Every bounty hunter knowing the Empire wants to kill Jedi would have called up the authorities and said that the famous Jedi from the Clone Wars' son was living outside of Mos Eisley and winning T-16 races. Per the arrangement, the Empire says "Thank you very much. We're not interested in paying for a hit that far out on the Outer Rim, good-bye."

It could get worse: if Owen does know what became of Anakin, his farm might've been saved by money secretly given to him by the Empire. Keep Luke out of trouble, make sure he's allowed to live the normal life Anakin might've, and keep him on the darn farm!

The stormtroopers arrive at the farm and Rebel droids are missing and so is Luke - Owen and Beru don't know where he's gone but Vader figures that R2 would've been sent after Obi-Wan, so Owen and Beru are punished. A lot of things are starting to make sense!

JediDBM
01-02-2003, 09:48 AM
You have a very interesting view on all of this, one not to be criticized. I still dont think though that if Dooku were not sith, he would not have tried to kill Obi-Wan in the hanger duel, and he did try to kill him. There is no mistake about it. You could say that Obi Wan and Dooku's fight was staged, but for whose benefit? Anakin's? Now I did sense a bit of disapointment (look on his face) from Dooku when he cut off Anakin's arm, like he knew this one had found favor with his alleged master Sidious. Or disapointed that Anakin did not put up a better fight. I am defineatly convinced Dooku is bad and will be killed as a sith. If there was any good in him, once he had the plans for the Deathstar, he could have taken them to the Jedi council, but he didn't. He was too involved in killing Jedi and allowing Jedi to be killed.

But I do agree with (this is quoted from your dialogue, give credit to the author): Darth Vader knows who Luke Skywalker is and exactly where he lives (with the Lars - because HE may have suggested it!) NEW SHOCKER FOR YOU!

ROTJ: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him."

THIS LINE DOES NOT SAY:

VADER DIDN'T KNOW HE HAD A SON.

THIS LINE DOES NOT SAY:

THE EMPEROR DID NOT KNOW VADER HAD A SON.

All it says is that Luke was hidden from the Emperor when he was born.

A DEAL WAS STRUCK: Vader (the Chosen One) would serve the Emperor with full-commitment, as long as the Emperor leaves the rest of his family alone.

Obi-Wan was supposed to stay in exile, watch over Luke, and not be training Jedi to interfere with the Empire's control.

"You should not have come back!"

Tycho
01-02-2003, 11:08 AM
Yes, I noticed that too: Dooku looks sad when he cuts off Anakin's arm!

Nothing is taken for granted or misdirected (i.e. Christopher Lee was tired after they filmed the scene and he sighed due to his old age and they left it on the final cut of the scene - not!)

That was intentional.


Obi-Wan is felled and Dooku goes for a killing blow! Why? Obi-Wan knows too much. Dooku tried to recruit him as Qui-Gon's former apprentice (Obi-Wan), and gave him a lot of information when he was pretty sure Obi-Wan would either be killed, or really join him.

Furthermore, if Dooku had plans for his son, he'd never get Anakin to join him, or believe in him, if Obi-Wan had anything to say about it - so it would be easier to deal with Anakin if Obi-Wan were in on things. Needless to say, that didn't work out for Dooku, so he planned to kill Obi-Wan.

Then Anakin recovered and interfered and fought relentlessly (well, a little more cautiously then when they first arrived in the hanger - (gosh Episode 2 was so good!)...anyways....

Dooku defeats Anakin by cutting off his arm and stacking the bodies where he could take care of them both permanently...

but he shuts his lightsaber OFF! Then he sighs and looks sad. Then he reacts to feeling another presence coming (Yoda). These are clearly different reactions Christopher Lee is acting out. So the deactivation of his lightsaber was hardly necessary, even if he wanted to use the Force to crush Yoda with machinery, or lightning zap him: Vader uses the Force the former way with his lightsaber on - Dooku's lighting is shot one-handed, too.

No, I think he was sorry he injured his son. If they were unrelated and he knew Palpatine favored Anakin, - and Dooku wanted to either defeat the Dark Lord or take his place - he'd have seen Anakin as a threat and killed him then and there.

But he turned his saber off!

Finally, when he made the machinery fall to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan, he could have stayed engaged with Yoda in their duel.

1) it would have killed Kenobi and Skywalker.
2) he might've killed Yoda if the Master was distracted saving the 2 younger Jedi

but

3) he used the diversion to escape but knew Yoda would save his son, and he hesitated (against YODA?) to stay and watch for a moment to make sure Yoda succeeded in saving them. Maybe he was just in awe of Yoda's control, but it'll take until E3 to know for sure.

Geeze I wish there were any spoilers to confirm any of this. It's still all speculation - but we're 5 movies and 25 years used to Lucas' style. Some things out to be predictable now. ;)

Thanks for the compliments. I hope my story is good. I like it and think it's logical. I hope this is George's story or it gets even better.

But I think it's a mistake to miss the opportunity to have Anakin face the guilt of murdering his own father - something he always wanted in his life (he has but doesn't appreciate fully with Obi-Wan due to his age and teenage rebellion years) - and then have that part of his turning against the Jedi -

mother
wife
child
father

all dead - all the Jedi's fault - probably all Obi-Wan's fault (in his reasoning).

Turns to the Dark Side, tries to kill Obi-Wan. "Dies" trying. He's Dark Side. We've seen him turn.

A guy in a black suit with some very familiar motivations (if one thinks about it) shows up later -

eager to kill Jedi
eager to find Padme and child if they are still alive
angry with Obi-Wan and very familiar with him as he was an apprentice of Kenobi

...but which one? ;)

mini-rock
01-02-2003, 12:27 PM
Very good speculation Tycho:D. Your making my mouth water for this movie.:)

JediDBM
01-02-2003, 02:30 PM
I must agree with mini-rock, very good speculation, but it would be an endless debate between us (you and I) over the idea of Dooku being Anakins father. You support your arguement well, but I can't except that part of the story line. George Lucas has done that once, I dont see him doing it a second time. So I will conceade and just say it is a very good storyline, I just dont agree with all of it, but nobody is ever going to agree on everything, every single time. So can we just agree to disagree on this particular issue, and continue to have some really good chats about Episode III? It is going to kill me to have to wait for Episode III, but you are right, we have all waited 25 years to get where we are today! Whats another year or two, right?! LOL I am going to post another topic out on the forum, would really like your take on it Tycho. :cool:

Tycho
01-02-2003, 02:42 PM
Cool. Thanks for the compliments, guys. About Dooku? We can agree to disagree. I'm satisfied I made my point and answered rebuttals to it. Any more and I'd be repeating myself. I have to wait until 2005 myself to find out.

Perhaps spoilers (since this is a spoilers section) will be available from TheForce.net or Alderra.net etc. once there are a lot of potential spies around the studios when they begin shooting. I think this summer, when Natalie's out of school, they are going to do most of the filming.

One thing's for sure though, she won't have to shoot her scenes with most of the cast if my storyline is right. Let me think:

Padme's scenes:

Senate / Palpatine

A LOT with Bail Organa and JarJar Binks

Something with 11 year old Han Solo

Something with 14 year old Boba Fett

Something with Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo-Koon, and Yoda

Maybe almost nothing with Obi-Wan Kenobi!

Almost none with Anakin!

Some with Darth Vader (pretty surely still Hayden, but not conversational scenes in my story outline ;) )

They could pretty much shoot a lot of the scenes without her, and just do pick-up shots later. Interesting...

JediDBM
01-03-2003, 09:23 AM
I will bet she gets bumped off by Nute and his thugs, destroyer droid or something will get her, the more I think about it though, I keep thinking about Luke and Liea's conversation toward the end of ROTJ. She was very beautiful, but sad, she died when I was very young. Meaning she has to be old enough to remember her mother, I am curious how George will pull this off. guess we will just have to wait and see...

Tycho
01-03-2003, 02:05 PM
She may also bear witness to Anakin's demise and inhale whatever gases he does, that ruin his lungs. Without the Force, perhaps she will slowly die. This has to happen after she gives birth, though I don't think she'll be up and able to just leave her babies and run after him. So axe that.

However, if she is exposed to a dehibilitating substance, we could then guess that she will have to be hospitalized and have a very limited lifespan after that - such as live 3 more years after the movie, but we know she will die - and why. That would make sense.

I've toyed with the Romeo & Juliet themed suicide. It is possible she kills herself - and maybe even more logical if it's not over Anakin but instead she's falling apart due to more and more of Palpatine's abuses of his authority. Her guilt about getting the Emperor to where he is today pushes her over the edge, and if she is hunted and flees - so that the forces against her can't learn of Leia through her - Padme's sacraficing herself for her daughter makes sense.

What's troubling is that Leia shows no signs of extraordinary memory capabilities, and perhaps only Jedi in the EU (Obi-Wan for example) has that power, but it was developed through Qui-Gon's extensive training of his apprentice to make certain he notices details. Leia's had no training of that nature, especially as an infant.

Therefore, while dramatic and tragic in the full Shakespearean sense, her suicide cannot happen on screen, thus it is a wasted notion because only if it is shown, would it bear enough impact to resolve the loose ends for Padme's character.

So while I like the idea of a star-crossed suicide (not the Shakespearean dialogue in Anakin's courtship of Padme, and John William's song "A-cross the Stars" as possible hints), I don't think it will work in a flowing non-chronologically interrupted film (that is the movie will NEVER jump "4 years later...." on screen).

So in the final end, it makes sense that Padme has suffered an irrecoverable affliction from most likely a toxin or other internal damage, that will surely cause a slow death over the course of 3-4 years after Episode 3. Leia remembers her as "kind, very beautiful, but sad." That would fit a memory of having only known your mother as a terminal patient in a hospital. Alderaan is also very advanced in research in not just ship designs and weapons, but in medacine as well. These clues point to Padme dying on Alderaan (I mean before everybody else dies on Alderaan).

But the audience will know HOW and WHY Padme dies, thus there will be closer even if she actually dies after the movie is over.

How about that?

The Overlord Returns
01-03-2003, 02:28 PM
How about the possibility that Padme was alive when Alderaan was destroyed, and leia simply spares Luke from the truth, not wanting him to carry the burden that they were "too late" to save their mother?

Rogue II
01-03-2003, 02:30 PM
Well, someone has been trying to kill Padme since Episode I. It's just a matter of time before they succeed. After all, she isn't Fidel Castro.:D:crazed:

I get the feeling her death won't be part of Episdoe III. I don't think her cause of death will be suicide, the films are too kid oriented for that. Unless, of course, she sacrifices herself to save others(like the kids), kind of on the borderline of suicide and murder.

JediDBM
01-04-2003, 12:32 PM
While I agree with you about the films being too kid oriented for a suicide, I think there is a great possiblity she is killed in Episode III, that could possibly be the perverbial straw that breaks the camels back and pushes Anakin to life of no return. Somehow he will find a way to blame Obi-Wan, just as in the back of his mind he blames Obi-Wan for his mothers death.

Tycho
01-04-2003, 01:48 PM
Yes JediDBM, but not exactly that simple:

Anakin will believe Padme was killed BEFORE she actually dies, so yes he'll blame Obi-Wan for it.

In my story, it is because Obi-Wan calls to him in the Force, kind of like how Luke did to Leia when he was wounded, and desperately clinging to a weather vane in the howling winds of Bespin (or he'll just send a hologram...), but Anakin's not around specifically when he thinks Padme bites it.

She won't be dead, however.

This is crucial, because Anakin will turn to the Dark Side and try to kill Obi-Wan while protecting Palpatine in the fight scene I described. Obi-Wan will still be a good guy and try to save him.

"Come with me." "Obi-Wan once thought as you do..."

Anakin, hearing the truth being spoken by Palpatine (notice how the Sith actually shape the truth, then reveal it, so that the horror is real?) and realizing he's lost everything:

mother
father figure in Obi-Wan
real father murdered by his own hand
mentor in Palpatine who was hiding his real identity from him
wife and unborn son (as he won't know about Leia)

Anakin lets himself be defeated or fall to his presumed doom.

Later Vader appears and learns that Pamde and Luke are still alive. Of course 'the new, terrible, and mysterious Dark Lord' goes hunting for them through Dagobah's nightmare swamps. To the unfamiliar with Star Wars, it will look like this new relentless Dark Lord will be trying to kill them - he's desperately stalking them just like he stalked Luke in ESB - 3 & 5 will be very closely tied to each other thematcially.

Vader will find Luke once in E3 - with Obi-Wan - but realizing he was wrong (as Anakin - and that Obi-Wan was NOT responsible for Padme's and Luke's deaths - mainly because AT LEAST LUKE IS STILL ALIVE) Vader lets them go, asking Obi-Wan to raise his son with the best life could have offered the father, had he never left Tatooine and started on the path that lef to downfall in his life. He will protect them from the Emperor, with his pledge of loyalty to the Sith which he's joined, so that he WILL realize the power he always wanted: the power to protect those he loves. Obi-Wan will be banished to protect and watch over Luke, who will find a home for them both with Anakin's step family - the Lars - far out of the reach of the Empire.

In fact, perhaps Obi-Wan's falling out with Uncle Owen is over the fact that Owen wants his step-brother back and feels he should raise his own son, so that Obi-Wan should be a real Jedi and go rescue Owen's last and only connection with Shmi - the woman he knew as his mother - and the last connection he has to his own dead father. But Obi-Wan refuses, making a deal with the Sith, and Owen just can't understand this because he doesn't understand the Prophesy.

The Force is balanced (if that means 2 Jedi and 2 Sith - at least still in action). Yoda and Obi-Wan stand opposed to Palpatine and Vader - but Owen won't know of Yoda at all. However, Obi-Wan will undo the damage by training a 3rd Jedi, the son of Skywalker: Luke. The hope is that Luke is the one Jedi that Anakin will not kill, and will not allow the Emperor to kill. If Luke cannot stop Palpatine, and "know [him] all that he needs," then Anakin will be forced to fulfill his destiny and the Chosen One's time to act has finally come!

This would explain why Luke's name was never changed, etc. etc. Vader knew exactly where he was. It was only after he slew Obi-Wan and heard Luke's name called, and then faced off with a Jedi Pilot in the Battle of Yavin, that he knew Luke was trained and out on the loose. Notice Vader always assumes Luke is much more trained than he actually is. Luke merely holds his own with Vader for a while at Bespin, and then defeats him at Endor because Vader will NOT kill his own son.

Vader hunts him down in ESB because Luke's come to the Emperor's attention and their bargain is broken. The Emperor lost a whole Death Star and 10 million men, not to mention Tarkin, because Luke is out there on the loose. Vader has to subject him to discipline. Together they may have to kill Palpatine for Luke's own safety. Luke's safety is Vader's primary concern, because without Obi-Wan, he is left as the only surviving parent for Luke. Ironic when we thought that lightsaber battles was so scary in ESB - but that's another reason why Vader's identity should not be given away in Episode 3 by showing Hayden's face going into the mask.

Sure Hayden will play Vader because he can't stop asking George if he can 'test for the part.' But it's not what a lot of people expect or think they want. (it is exactly the way it should be though) Meanwhile, though another actor could be fitted for the suit (I'm all for David Prowse to get his only SW wish and for a non-action scene he'll get to play the part one last time), Hayden will offer some consistency in form for Vader if he does his stunts (Hayden did all of Anakin's stunts in Episode 2, so I'm all for it).

Meanwhile, Padme has to get away and I think it will still be established that she's dying in spite of surviving E3. That way Leia will no her, but she'll still "die when [she] was very young." I don't think she'd hide anything from Luke - he could sense it, and this was a moment of full truth between the twins. Leia was 22 years old then, so describing her life at 18 when Alderaan was destroyed as being a time when she was very young, would not be very accurate. I give you this: she could be figuratively speaking to suggest that 4 years of war and life on the run has made her feel like she's seen too much, and aged too far. That could be it. But I don't think so. It was not a time for the twins to be speaking in riddles to each other. Luke was being very direct with her. She owed him as much.

Interesting to note, there is 4 years of war in Leia's life alongside Luke and Han, and there is 4 years of war in Padme's life with Anakin and Obi-Wan.

While I've heard 3 years between E2 and E3, I now definitely see it as being more poetic by being 4.

That would make Luke and Leia 18 in ANH for sure (versus 19 like it matters... :rolleyes: )

Anakin: 23, .........41 in ANH, 45 in ROTJ

Padme: 28

Obi-Wan: 38,..... 56 in ANH

While Alec Guiness may have looked a little older, it plays right because the idea is that Obi-Wan was too young to be Anakin's Jedi Master -they are only 15 year apart in age - and then if he'd been his natural father, he would have had a kid at age 15 - far too young to be a dad. The idea is that Obi-Wan was just far too inexperienced.

Interesting...

Rogue II
01-04-2003, 03:16 PM
That sounds about right: Anakin will think Padme is dead and go full on to the Dark Side, since he said he wanted to make people stop dying (or whatever that line was in ATOC just after he gets back from killing the Tuskens).

Very "Romeo and Juliet."

JediDBM
01-05-2003, 02:56 PM
After reading your possible storyline for EP III, then going back and watching the five movies that are out, Tycho, you might be pretty close on a lot of it, but I am still going to disagree with you on the Dooku/Shmi affair idea. :D

JediDBM
01-06-2003, 08:22 PM
No more responses since my posting yesterday? Does that mean everybody likes Tycho's idea of what to expect in EP III? Thanks for your help Tycho, hope I can return the favor sometime. :)

Tycho
01-06-2003, 09:29 PM
I think a lot of people avoid the spoilers section, so participation is a little light in the first place.

In the second, this thread is now a LOT to read. You could bind it as the Episode 3 novel already ;)

Finally, I think a lot of the folks who were subscribed to this thread before might have lost their subscriptions when the forums were updated and modified last fall.

I've still heard that Stillakid was going to join us and give us his opinion, but there's a lot of reading to do to fully take everything in, which brings us back to my first point.

JediDBM
01-07-2003, 09:10 AM
I just printed out everything, read it, then came back later to respond. Plus, I was impressed with your story and shared it with friends and family. But nobody arund here has the interest for Star Wars that I do, so nobody was interested in reading. My wife read some, and asked if you worked for George Lucas.

Tycho
01-07-2003, 12:37 PM
I wish I worked with George Lucas! But what would I do there? Production Assistant, procuring materials, permission to shoot on locations? I don't have a film background, and he doesn't need a story consultant. Star Wars goes one way: his way. That is the only "right way" after all. It's his creation, his property, his plan.

I am only trying to guess because I admire his story-telling skills and I want to learn to think about drama at the levels that he does.

I also have more faith in him than the naysayers who are complaining that Obi-Wan never mentioned Qui-Gon to Luke; that Anakin wasn't shown to be a great starfighter pilot yet; that midi-chlorians were never mentioned in the Classic Trilogy, etc. etc. People don't understand that there can be facts, yet they can be interpreting them differently because they don't have all the information. I am demonstrating that the prequels can work perfectly if what I think I figured out holds true, because all the loose ends are tied up, and all new information serves a purpose and supports the classic films when it's all put together.

I still haven't heard that Stillakid, the biggest prequel nay-sayer I'm friends with, has read this thread! (come on Buddy!)

But some people want all the answers in one movie and nothing to keep you in suspense, to keep coming back for more information in the next film, etc. etc. Some people just can't even watch some stuff to just be entertained.

*sigh*

I hope this thread is still around and dated correctly from when it started - so that when E3 comes out - I can say "I told you so." But even if it's not, I'll know I got it right, and that my faith in George was well-placed.

Tycho
01-27-2003, 11:03 PM
OK, perhaps I've found Obi-Wan Kenobi's SECOND APPRENTICE:

Clayton Watson has been cast for Episode 3. He is an Australian actor also cast in the next 2 Matrix sequels.

He may be Obi-Wan's new apprentice and the false lead for who Darth Vader's identity really is if Lucas plays it out as it goes in my speculation.

Here is the mistake-bait for new viewers to wonder, what pupil of Obi-Wan's betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker.

(the actor is 25 years old, a little older than I imagined he'd be - but that doesn't mean he can't play a younger Padawan in the SW universe. No actual information on his role in the movie has been revealed yet, but he does remind me of Ewan in TPM - just add on a Jedi braid).

stillakid
01-27-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
I also have more faith in him than the naysayers who are complaining that Obi-Wan never mentioned Qui-Gon to Luke; that Anakin wasn't shown to be a great starfighter pilot yet; that midi-chlorians were never mentioned in the Classic Trilogy, etc. etc. People don't understand that there can be facts, yet they can be interpreting them differently because they don't have all the information. I am demonstrating that the prequels can work perfectly if what I think I figured out holds true, because all the loose ends are tied up, and all new information serves a purpose and supports the classic films when it's all put together.
I think that would be just me, wouldn't it? ;) Really, it's a good question and I don't know how to ask it. I'd really like to know if there is anyone else out there that sees the saga the way I do. Anyone? Maybe it could be one of the poll questions: Do you think Qui Gonn interrupts the continuity of the OT, or something like that. :confused:


Originally posted by Tycho
[B]
I still haven't heard that Stillakid, the biggest prequel nay-sayer I'm friends with, has read this thread! (come on Buddy!)
Yeah, sorry about that. It is a book afterall. Is it essentially what you told me verbally? If so, I think you already have some idea what I think.

Overall, you've put together pieces or outright invented them so that Lucas's elements can be glued together. Sure, why not. It does all seem to work (except for that bit about the convenience and odds of Qui Gon's landing party going to Tatooine). But otherwise, sure, it seems to work. Personally, it's a bit convoluted for my tastes and I wouldn't do it that way, but nobody's asking me too either. ;)

But (there's always a but ;) ), as I mentioned, I'm operating off a different paradigm than you are when it comes to evaluating Lucas's potential and what I expect from him. Based on what I know to be true about his filmmaking (and more importantly, his WRITING past), I can't see him pulling off what you propose. Your story is really complicated and relies on a lot of hoops to jump through to get from point A to point B. All in the name of mopping up a lot of his loose (and brand new) elements introduced in the Prequels. IF he addresses all the issues that seem to be contradictory in Episode III, then maybe I could be convinced that he's had some masterplan in mind to tie it all together. It's not about "revealing" everything in one movie and ending the suspense for the rest, or however you put it. It's about crafting a screenplay, a 12-Hour screenplay, that makes complete sense without having to go to such great lengths to explain the seeming incongruities in some kind of after game post-mortem. I'm not asking to get beat over the head with explanations left and right. I'm asking for continuity across the board that doesn't even inspire the audience to scratch their heads and wonder "what?" A good story well-told. That's all I'm asking for.

But like I've mentioned before, George has a very poor history when it comes to writing on his own. (As far as we know) the only thing he's ever written (feature film) without aid was THX-1138. Now, I'm sure we could all find some merit to that particular film, but you have to admit that it's a bit on the "art house" side and it never was well received by anyone. After that flop, he enlisted the aid of his friends, Willam Huyck and Gloria Katz, to help him write American Graffiti. They came back to rescue Star Wars before it was dumped by Fox. A bit of financial independence followed for ESB, but he recognized the need for some help even still. Of course Leigh Brackett's version didn't survive (as she didn't either) but thankfully Lawrence Kasdan came in to polish off what is widely considered the best episode of the series. He returned again for the last chapter.

Fast forward 20 years, tons more cash, post divorce, more kids in the house, maybe some bitterness. Who knows. Whatever the reason, George chose to write TPM all on his own. Remember, the only other time he did this was way back when with THX-1138. And remember how well that did.

As we discussed previously, I think the guy has a great vision...with the broad strokes. But he can't paint with a fine tipped brush to save his life. That's the kind of clumsy storytelling I saw in TPM. And once you peel off the candy coating and quick- cutting of AOTC, the same patterns are evident there as well.

Now we're down to Episode III with a lot of loose ends to tie up from I and II, plus the burden of bridging the expansive gaps created between the Prequels and the OT. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that George hasn't proven himself to be capable of doing it alone. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. We'll all find out who's right in a couple years. :)

Tycho
01-28-2003, 03:01 AM
Thanks for all the reading you did Stillakid! I know it was a lot in this thread. Meanwhile, I guess we'll have to wait until more spoilers come in, to find out if I'm headed in the right direction.

Meanwhile, anyone at all care to speculate on Clayton Watson's role in E3?

Will he play a Jedi? Will he be Obi-Wan's new apprentice for a 12-hour screenplay to confuse naive, or young members of a new audience as to whether Anakin totally died, or if Darth Vader could be someone else, other than Luke's father - until you're surprised in the 10th hour, during Episode 5?

Tycho
04-24-2003, 01:54 AM
So where does Chewbacca fit into this story?

I think his being a "getaway" pilot for the heroes, with his old ship prior to the Falcon, is quite likely.

He shouldn't know Han Solo yet, not for another 12 years actually, according to the EU that's been authorized, so they probably won't even be in the same scene together.

I think that Chewie will meet Obi-Wan and/or Anakin though.

Obi-Wan seems sure to trust Chewie in the cantina, and Vader does not immediately execute or enslave Chewie upon finding him at Cloud City, but instead authorizes him having C-3PO.

vorronsalive
04-25-2003, 07:55 PM
I just started reading these posts and I didn't get through all of them so this question may have been answered already, but I will ask it anyways. Where or what in the story shows, tells, or proves why Vader is the most feared man in the galaxy? Sure he kills some jedi, but so did Jango Fett and he isn't as feared. He commands the army and gives orders to Boba Fett, but Tarkin is just as high up in Rank and ordering imperials in ANH. What will happen...let me rephrase that.....something must happen in the movie that will prove why Vader is the MOST FEARED MAN IN THE GALAXY!

Brainiak76
05-03-2003, 05:38 PM
vorronsalive EXcellent point!!

i hvent read the whoel thing either so sorry if it has been answered!! But think bout it...only one way to be the baddest Mother Fer in the galaxy...take out the baddest mother fer in the galaxy..Mace! if ani takes out the head of the jedi council..ah man..im sure all hell would break out..but jsut my 2cents

then it goes back ot the whole thing of is mace evil..blah blah blah

trowa_barton
05-09-2003, 11:26 AM
Anakin was 9 in TPM, so when he was born that many years prior to that, Obi-Wan (24 in TPM) would have been 15. Jedi are apprenticed at age 13. So Obi-Wan would be with Qui-Gon, 35 yrs old then.

This is close to imposssible, Qui-Gon had two apprentices before Obi-Wan, It is said in the TPM novel that Qui-Gon is well over 100 years old, meaning that if Dooku impregnated Shimi while Qui-Gon is still an apprentice, then Shimi is very very old as well.

Anakin2121
05-09-2003, 03:30 PM
In the TPM novel, it actually says, on page 283:

"Qui-Gon was nearing sixty; his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish."

:)

TheDarthVader
05-10-2003, 01:14 PM
Dooku looks sad/ sighs when he defeats Kenobi and Anakin because he thought they were both better combatants. He wanted to "recruit" one of them, and after he fights them he realizes "perhaps you are not as strong as the emperor thought". I think it is an expectation thing. Its not that Anakin is his son...more or less, I am disappointed in how easy it was to defeat you. (no competition). I can just image Dooku saying to anakin "Palpatine speaks so highly of you, and I beat you in less than a minute." It more of disappointment thing, not regret.

TheDarthVader
05-11-2003, 03:12 PM
I think we are all underestimating the role of Mon Mothma. According to sources I have read (licensed books (Lucasfilm)), Mothma is the founder of the Rebel Alliance. It states that Dodonna is second in rank, only to Mothma (ANH). She should have a big role in EpIII, bigger than any of us has been thinking about. It will be cool to see it all "play out". Just thought I'd throw that in. ;)

trowa_barton
05-13-2003, 04:05 PM
I thought he is more or less huffing at the end of his fight because it took alot more energy than he expected to use on a padawan learner.

TheBigSloppy
05-15-2003, 03:04 PM
One item I think that has not been mentioned here: James Earl Jones has been hired as a voiceover for EPIII by Lucas.

Thus, it would be safe to assume that we will be introduced to the transition from Anakin to Vader in one way or another.

I imagine his (Vader's) introduction as the very last scene. I picture a dark, shadowy environment with the silhouette of Vader emerging into full detail (perhaps from his chamber). Hopefully, Lucas will not script a one-line zinger like "I'll be back." But I wouldn't put it past Georgie Porgie.

jedi_mindtricks_yoda
06-23-2003, 06:48 AM
Great story, when are you writing the script for 7, 8 and 9. Since Lucas will not be producing them will you?

Tycho
06-23-2003, 12:28 PM
From a thread about all the characters' exact ages:

I've just been working out some interesting facts and suppositions.

I did some math based on both speculation, in the case of Dooku, and factual data gathered from the Jedi Apprentice Books.

Here goes:

MASTER YODA:

900 when he dies and Luke Skywalker is knighted
899 when he apprentices Luke Skywalker
878 when he goes into exile on Dagobah
874 when he becomes a general in the Clone Wars
864 when Dooku betrays him and leaves the Jedi Order
840 when he first meets Obi-Wan
817 when Dooku takes Qui-Gon Jinn as his apprentice
817 when Yoda apprentices Ki-Adi Mundi as his next padawan
813 when he knights Dooku
802 when he apprentices Dooku


COUNT DOOKU is 15 years older than Qui-Gon

89 (approximately) for Episode III
85 in AOTC
75 when he left the Jedi Order
66 when Anakin Skywalker was conceived
39 when Qui-Gon Jinn was first knighted
28 when he became Qui-Gon's master
13 when he became Yoda's apprentice

QUI-GON JINN is 36 years older than Obi-Wan

60 when killed in TPM
49 when he became Obi-Wan's master
39 when Qui-Gon was betrayed by Xanatos
28 when he became Xanatos' master
24 when he became knighted
13 when he became Dooku's apprentice


XANATOS is 15 years older than Xanatos

34 when he was killed in TDOR
24 when he betrayed Qui-Gon
13 when he became Qui-Gon's apprentice


Obi-Wan Kenobi is 15 years older than Anakin Skywalker

56 when killed by Darth Vader in ANH
56 when he apprentices Luke Skywalker
38 when he goes into exile on Tatooine
34 when he was a general during the Clone Wars (AOTC)
24 during TPM when he's knighted and becomes Anakin's master
15 when Anakin Skywalker is born
13 when he is apprenticed to Qui-Gon Jinn


Anakin Skywalker

45 when he is killed in his battle with Darth Sidious
44 when he sets a trap on Cloud City in attempt to capture Luke Skywalker
41 when he vanquishes his old Jedi Master, Obi-Wan Kenobi on the Death Star
23 when he is presumed dead and becomes Darth Vader
22 when he fathers Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia
19 when he marries Padme Naberrie-Amidala
9 when he becomes the apprentice of Obi-Wan Kenobi

Some interesting patterns develop here - some of which are disturbingly coincidental:

Jedi being 15 years older than their padawans cannot be the norm. One thing is clear: Obi-Wan started training Anakin when both of them were at too young of an age, not to mention Anakin not being raised in the Jedi Temple.

But can 4 more years as a full knight make a Jedi ready to teach a padawan by age 28? To get a 13 year old at that age, it would still be like becoming a father or mother at age 15 yourself.

I thought this was to be shown as part of what went wrong with Obi-Wan and Anakin, but Dooku and Qui-Gon each took their first apprentice at a young age.

Perhaps Qui-Gon took Xanatos so young, because he wanted to be like Dooku. The match ultimately failed.

Obi-Wan was not intended to be Anakin's master at so young of age, but we all know how that happened.

But Dooku had in fact trained Qui-Gon correctly, even if this wasn't normal for the age gap, proving it could be done.

What do you guys think?

And how old was Shmi Skywalker in TPM? If she was 40, then she was 31 when Anakin was conceived, but in my theory that Dooku was the father, a 66 year old with a 31 year old is possible (check out Harrison Ford with Ally McBeal) but sort of unlikely, unless she fell in love with her Jedi rescuer (who then gets her pregnant and leaves her in slavery).

Brainiak76
06-23-2003, 02:19 PM
WHOA!! nice info! really helpful!!

Jedi Leanne
06-23-2003, 06:06 PM
here's the complete story (http://www.geocities.com/jedi_leanne/Episode3_2nd_draft.rtf)

Anakin2121
06-23-2003, 06:53 PM
Actually, that was posted on TF.N as a fan script.

It's still a very good read, though, Leanne. Thanks. :)

Jedi Leanne
06-23-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Anakin2121
Actually, that was posted on TF.N as a fan script.

It's still a very good read, though, Leanne. Thanks. :)

shhhhhhhh I thought I could get em to think it was the real deal :D I think it's probably the real thing but they've said it's a fan script so Georgie don't sue their butt off!

Tonysmo
06-24-2003, 07:52 AM
read it.. thoughts were pretty much... ***wow*** if it plays out like that, I'll be shocked...

muchos enjoyable script.

tgr3328
06-24-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
[SIZE=4]And how old was Shmi Skywalker in TPM? If she was 40, then she was 31 when Anakin was conceived, but in my theory that Dooku was the father, a 66 year old with a 31 year old is possible (check out Harrison Ford with Ally McBeal) but sort of unlikely, unless she fell in love with her Jedi rescuer (who then gets her pregnant and leaves her in slavery).

I think Palpatine is Anakin's father. He probably used a Sith mind trick to make her forget, and arranged for her to live in slavery where hardship would foster the dark side in his son.

I can picture a pivotal scene in EPIII where Palpatine confronts Anakin saying "I am your father! Join me and together we will rule the galaxy as father and son!" Where Luke resisted, Anakin will fall and join the Sith.

I also think that Luke will be hidden on Tatooine with Vader's knowlege, but maybe not the Emperor's. Leia's existence and/or location will apparently be a surprise to them both.