PDA

View Full Version : Episode 3 - a complete story to speculate from



Tycho
05-21-2002, 08:28 PM
This thread is also going on in the spoilers section, but the purpose for posting it here is for SPOILER AVOIDING FANS.

This is all speculation, and at some point when I (or you) read spoiler material, you have to quit coming here because the new information WILL undoubtedly affect how you change and re-shape the story.

Interesting discussion on this speculative story is already going on in the poll section under "What did you think of AOTC?" as well.

Well, HERE it is:

**************EPISODE THREE**************

The Clone Wars have raged on for 4 bloody years. The Jedi are overwhelmed and desperate.

Whole planets are being destroyed.

In retaliation for Palpatine's martial law, Naboo is completely destroyed. The Gungans are wiped out.

The Naboo contingeant on Coruscant is still strong, still fighting though.

Senator Padme Amidala is 9 months pregnant with her unborn children (or child if it is unknown that they are twins). In light of the Clone Wars, she refuses to settle down and just lay still while she feels responsible in part, having worked to defeat the Army Creation Act that led the Republic to war (versus a diplomatic solution) so she tries her best to set things right as a Senator and the last of the Naboo. Her whole family has been wiped out - killed when Naboo was ravaged, and the reason why the twins don't live with their grandparents.

Representative JarJar Binks' played the fool and authorized an army that started a war which eradicated his people. He too is trying to set things straight and is totally ostracized and loathed by Amidala. The bridge he created between the Naboo and the Gungans with her is totally in ashes. He is more annoying than ever, constantly trying to make it up to her and help her. Only for Padme, irritable, as she's pregnant, to be more annoyed with JarJar than the audience (if that's possible).

Meanwhile, to stay close to his wife, Anakin Skywalker, EX-JEDI KNIGHT has been made advisor to the Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, another of the last of the Naboo. He defends the people left from the world he held most dearest. But he resents the Jedi who expelled him for breaking the code and his oath, and he learns to feel hatred for them for their keeping him from saving his mother. He fails to understand WHY they let Shmi have a life, as Anakin thinks only of himself, still the whiny, emotionaly immature child that wants everything.

The Jedi meanwhile continue to fight for the Loyalists (including Bail Organa, an ally of Palpatines) against the Rebel Separatists. They command the Clones and Obi-Wan is made a General. But they are getting slaughtered. Having seen the Clone Troopers' superiority in a fight, the Separatists commission their own Clone Army funded by Count Dooku. They get a new donor who looks a lot like Harrison Ford. The orphaned Boba Fett needs to survive and takes command of these Clones to fight the perverse Republic that turned his father's clones against them and enslaved them to the Jedi. He dons Jaster Mureel's old armor - the man who Jango told his son about - the one who had saved Jango's life long ago. And Fett fulfills his father's destiny and leads an army of Mandalorian Clad Clones into battle. The Jedi and Republic Clones are getting slaughtered!

The Separatists have advanced to the Galactic Core and a great battle is being fought on Alderaan!

An urgent message from Obi-Wan Kenobi calls back to Coruscant and Palpatine's office: "Anakin Skywalker, years ago you served the Jedi Order as my Padawan. Now I beg you for your help in my struggle against the Separatists..."

Smug that 'OK, now he's NEEDED,' the greatest of all Jedi leaves Coruscant to fight his way to his former master in a pitched Starfighter battle that shows that Anakin is indeed the best Starfighter pilot in the galaxy.

Anakin rejoins his former Master and Anakin proves that he has not stopped learning about the Force. He has studied forbidden knowledge of the Dark Side from Sith artifacts that have fallen into his hands through his benefactor, Palpatine. With his newfound powers combined with Obi-Wan's, they duel and destroy Count Dooku! Before he dies, while he's fatally wounded, Anakin runs off when a transmission comes through by a desperate Padme Amidala!

The Trade Federation and Techno Union cower in light of these events, but the Mandalorians won't give up!

In a stealth strike on Coruscant, they hit the capital and capture the Loyalist Party leaders: Bail Organa, JarJar Binks, and the pregnant Padme Amidala! It is a spectacular mini-battle that pits the Chancellor's Royal Guards against the Mandalorians! But the Guardsmen are defeated, though they buy time for Palpatine to escape to a secret underground bunker in the firey bowels of Coruscant!

They are taken away as prisoners of war and held at some other location. Perhaps a conquered Corellia?

Meanwhile, as Dooku dies, he says he had joined the Sith to destroy them from within, but failed. He says all the lives lost in the Clone Wars would have been worth it if by going along with everything, he'd stopped the birth of a new age of evil and a Sith Empire, but he failed. He tells Obi-Wan that Palpatine is the real Dark Lord of the Sith. Perhaps he carries a holo-transmission to "prove it."

But the Mandalorian Clones have suffered severe losses too. Their youngest soldiers, some of them but only 11 years old, are needed to guard the prisoners while the adults do the fighting.

Anakin rushes back to Coruscant and security forces send him to Palpatine. He tells him that his pregnant wife and child / children were killed in the attack while Anakin was away helping Obi-Wan.
He tells Anakin that the war is going far too badly for the Republic and even Dooku's death won't make a difference against the Mandalorian Clones. He says that is because they are being led by the Jedi who concocted this whole thing as a conspiracy with Dooku so that they could sieze power. The Jedi High Council has been manipulating everything and Obi-Wan was blind if he could not see it. Everything he advised Anakin on led the younger Jedi astray and he was unwittingly a part of this whole thing.

Meanwhile Obi-Wan goes back to the Jedi to tell them what he's learned. He is instructed to find his former padawan as they will need everyone's help, especially if the boy really could be the Chosen One. Obi-Wan traces Anakin to the molten depths of Corusant and finds Palpatine!

He claims the Chancellor is the Dark Lord of the Sith and must be destroyed. Anakin blames him for Padme's death and the deaths of his unborn children and his mother, 4 years ago. He will not let Obi-Wan kill Palpatine, the last of those who have been good to him. And he thinks Obi-Wan is crazy - Palpatine is not the Dark Lord of the Sith. But Obi-Wan moves to fulfill his mission and Anakin's emotions come to a boil. The two square off and fight - Master vs. Former Apprentice. All of Anakin's rage surges, but his will to live is sapped, tears fall as he accuses Obi-Wan of preventing him from saving Padme. Anakin swears he himself is a failure and doesn't deserve to live, but he will make Obi-Wan pay for what he's done first. But his emotions do not allow him to concentrate, and the teary-eyed youth gets hit by Kenobi's saber again and again! Across the face, in back of the head. But Obi-Wan fights to defend. When Anakin loses his concentration, he falls over the edge, his arm cut off perhaps, and holding on with the other arm. His lightsaber slides away on the ground.

Obi-Wan rushes forward to save Anakin, forgive him for his mistakes. He offers Anakin his hand, but Anakin refuses to take it. Anakin loses his grip and falls plunging toward the lava! Obi-Wan wipes away tears and picks up Anakin's fallen saber - all he has to remember his former padawan by.

Obi-Wan turns, but Palpatine has escaped!

Meanwhile, Boba Fett moves to the forward command and confronts the late-Dooku's second in command - a traitorous Republic commander Tarkin. Tarkin receives orders from Darth Sidious, knowing he has lost Lord Tyranus to the Force. They will make a treaty with the Separatists to end this war, but the Loyalists must die. Alderaan must completely disarm and surrender to the Separatists so they can safely return to their systems, but their will be a new Empire born out of the rejoining of the Rebel systems and the Old Republic - one Sidious 'has assurances will be accepted by the war weary public.' Palpatine will preside 'benevolently' over a more direct, authoritative government that will allow the Separatists to remain in power and control their special interests to their own advantage. Tarkin accepts these conditions if he will gain power. Fett feels betrayed, but he's young and has no one else to pay his way in the galaxy. He is ordered to Corellia to kill the Loyalist prisoners.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan returns to the Jedi and tells some of them of the tragedy. His wounds severe, he cannot go on the rescue mission when intelligence learns that the Loyalists are still alive and being held prisoner.

Just then Chancellor Palpatine comes on the air and says the Jedi are responsible for the war. They took command of the Republic's Clones and Dooku led the rebellion. On top of that, Obi-Wan Kenobi just tried to assasinate the Supreme Chancellor and slayed Anakin Skywalker, Alderaan's hero and the Chancellor's protector, in the process. The Jedi must be purged and the Senate is completely corrupted, the Loyalists having been killed and the rest remaining suspect. He will push for a bold, new offensive against the Jedi, this will destroy their control over the Clones and end the war. He calls for all the Jedi to be lynched basically.

The Jedi assigned to the rescue mission must move quickly, because if saved, they can provide testimony to the Jedi's innocense!

Meanwhile, the orders come down to Corellia to kill the prisoners. A young Clone guarding them is in command and knows Fett is arriving soon. Padme has just given birth, and prior to the order, with no reason not to, the young Clone helped the Loyalists give her the medical attention necessary for the children to be born. Now he is ordered to simply kill them all!

He can't. He disobeys orders and tells them he'll provide them with a means of escape, weapons, etc. Padme asks why, and the young Clone says "Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, Your Highness?"

They flee as Boba Fett arrives. Bail Organa grabs a blaster and defends Amidala, as JarJar pleads with her that it's not his fault. Bail and the young Clones are going to be quickly over-ran when the Jedi arrive!

Mace Windu commands them. Boba Fett recognizes this Jedi in particular! It's personal, but he makes a note that he has another score to settle with that young Clone who disobeyed his orders, too!

The Jedi and Mandalorians now fight it out! The Knights get to the Loyalists, then split up when Mace realizes that they have the children of Skywalker! If Anakin is dead, perhaps the children will bring balance to the Force? Mace will lead Fett away from them! To do so, he plays upon Boba's unprofessional hatred and Fett makes the mistake of going after Mace while Padme gets away. Mace allows himself to get cornered because it draws Fett after the target he's been longing for. But Mace is no longer there - he closes his eyes and disintegrates! Becoming one with the Force!

Meanwhile, Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon get Padme, Bail, and JarJar out of there. The young Clone is advised to run away and he does so. But where are the Jedi going to run to?

On Coruscant, the Jedi Temple is under attack! It's lynch mobs and police alike! Obi-Wan battles his way out of there and tries to get the Jedi children to safety. Yoda flees quietly in another direction, but senses a grave disturbance in the Force.

Anakin's body is on a ledge he fell on, just above the lava. He is NOT in the lava, but the heat is burning his skin and the air is (figuratively) setting fire to his lungs. He cries out in pain for Padme and collapses - we presume he's dead. A shadow falls across the body. Cut the scene.

Palpatine proclaims the main body of the Separatist forces are caving in without their Jedi commanders. He says they will sign a treaty to be under direct control of a New Order - one with the strength that can handle their dissent, and he will serve as an Emperor in a new government that will unite the galaxy to rebuild itself into a new golden age. A new Senate will retain power to one day restore the Republic when all the rebellions are put down, but meantwhile, someone the galaxy cantrust, Palpatine of course, will command over the reconstruction of this new galactic unity. Tarkin signs a treaty with him and is made a governor over the Separatists on the Outer Rim.

The new Emperor appears with a new Enforcer at his side - a persecuted Sith Lord, Darth Vader. The Sith were responsible Force-users the Jedi killed off or horribly maimed and betrayed because the Sith represented Order, but one where the Jedi would hold no power. Without Lord Vader, Palpatine proclaims, the Separatists would not have been convinced to surrender.

Meanwhile, Yoda meets Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, and the loyalists. He learns of the survival of the children of Skywalker and hears a final transmission recorded earlier by Mace. Yoda reconsiders the Prophesy. Bail insists on getting them to Alderaan, but the Core is blockaded. They have to take the Corellian Trade Route which runs out past Dagobah. There they will split up if followed. Yoda sends a transmission to Obi-Wan, only informing him of a rendezvous point.

Boba Fett, frustrated, begins to track them. Through Tarkin, Vader learns of his employ. Vader is obsessed to learn what happened to the Jedi on Corellia, as they must be destroyed - Palpatine convinced him so. When he meets Fett, he wants to kill him for what he presumes they did to his wife. But as Fett pleads for his life, Vader is intrigued to learn that the Jedi came there to protect a pregnant Senator and that they were rescued - the Mandalorians did not kill them as Palpatine 'mistakenly' thought. So Vader forces Fett to work as a hunter, tracking them. Slave-One picks up the trail and calls Vader in to Dagobah. They land with troops and begin to search the swamps. Fett waits in space, hoping for payment for his services.

The Jedi must split up again. Yoda and Plo Koon will stay behind while Ki-Adi Mundi gets Padme, Bail, JarJar, and the baby twins to safety as Darth Vader stalks them through the swamps. Yoda had stressed that the twins could hold the Chosen One and they must be split up so that at least one of them could survive.

Padme won't abide JarJar, so she and Leia go with Bail Organa. JarJar goes with Ki Adi Mundi.

Plo Koon is wounded and give into his fear and uses the Dark instincts native to his species. A spectacular battle begins but Plo ends up defeated and dies in the tree cave, while Yoda with superior skills, had took on all the Clone Troopers that Vader had commanded. When Vader returns from that awesome fight with Plo Koon, he finds the Loyalist ships gone, and assumes other Jedi that LEFT, killed the Clones.

Vader too leaves - to hunt them down!

Yoda remains behind. No ship is left to take him away. But he was shocked to observe Darth Vader from afar - there was something very familiar about him!

"Hmmm." Yoda says.

Meanwhile, Boba Fett detected the two Loyalist ships leaving Dagobah and chose to follow one. It's Ki Adi Mundi's. They are attacked and Ki has to land. The two of them must split up again, and Ki tells JarJar to take the baby and make sure he can get it to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

At the spaceport, Ki Adi Mundi prepares to slay Boba Fett, but instead of Fett, he faces Darth Vader! You know the outcome!

Obi-Wan Kenobi gets an urgent message pre-recorded from Ki-Adi Mundi. Kenobi has gotten some children to safety and told them to hide, make whatever life they can, remember to use their abilities for good, but never let on to anyone that they were ever Jedi, or they would be caught and put to death!

So Obi-Wan tracks Ki-Adi Mundi's signal to not Ki, but JarJar, who has a baby who he's told is the Son of Skywalker! Obi-Wan knows what THEY must do, when Ki-Adi Mundi's signal is traced - by Boba Fett! Knowing that he could never make things up to Padme for helping start this war, JarJar will help save her son by leading Fett away. It is assumed that the loyalist party that Vader is looking for is this one, as witnesses tell Fett that one of them had a baby! Fett tracks the signal to a ship (JarJar's) and destroys it as it takes off! (JarJar is totally blown to pieces!) Vader arrives on the scene and yells he wanted them alive! (Fett did have orders to kill them though) Vader turns to Fett and says "No disintegrations." Fett is stiffed by a curiously grieving Darth Vader, but threatened when he asks for payment that he will be paid by Vader sparing his life. Weary from his battles the Dark Lord returns to his new Master, Palpatine.

Padme, Bail, and baby Leia arrive on Alderaan. On this war ravaged planet that is being forced to disarm, rebuild, and repair, they stare up at the stars and wonder what the future will hold.

On a distant planet, circling two of those stars, Obi-Wan takes the baby Luke to the only living relatives he knows survived - Anakin's step-father and his family. But Cliegg has died from his wounds and Owen now runs the family farm with his young wife, Beru. They take the child from the Jedi, and following Owen's experience and character estimation of Anakin, tells Obi-Wan to get out of there and never bring his troubles back.

Obi-Wan Kenobi walks away, unable to stop the suns from setting.

The end.

Remember, no 'official' unofficial spoilers. No one need worry about that today, but if you are posting after real leaks are coming out and the real E3 script has been written, please be respectful of those only SPECULATING here.

darthvyn
05-21-2002, 09:11 PM
oh, man is this going to be sloppy...

Tycho
05-22-2002, 12:19 PM
I don't understand.

Pendo
05-22-2002, 12:28 PM
Interesting...

It could be cool but I think some bits could do with a little work.

PENDO!

darthvyn
05-22-2002, 06:09 PM
i just meant that it's going to be sloppy to have like, three spec threads... i just hope this one catches on among the non-spoiler speculator crowd...

Tycho
05-22-2002, 07:37 PM
Well, for you Darthvyn, and Pendo, and everyone else, this thread is where you come and make adjustments to the story so can tell what you think will most likely happen. Subject my outline to criticism on specific plot points, or completely rewrite it. People may or may not agree with my version, yours, or some specific point.

For everyone else: Darthvyn was talking about this speculative story outline for Episode Three being in this forum, the topic starter in the E3 spoiler threads page (where it will be 'corrected' as actual facts about E3 come in) and where it started in the Poll thread "What did you think about AOTC?" since E3 speculation would naturally be spawned by a discussion of E2.

I mean come on: we know Anakin and Padme can't marry and live happily ever after on Sollust, never having any children.

So there's a natural direction to take this.

Something I just read in the new Insider's interview with George Lucas concerns me though - and I'll add this information to the other 2 threads.

Lucas said that Darth Sidious can't just train another Sith Lord from his childhood like Darth Maul. He specifically sought to corrupt and turn a trained Jedi Master in order to turn Anakin. Lucas said that very specificially that Sidious is using Dooku to turn Anakin.

I once speculated that Dooku was Anakin's father. That there was no immaculate conception. Episode 2 would seem to confirm the latter. I'd guessed that Shmi would have told her son in her death scene and that the revelation would come there, sort of mirroring what happened in Empire. Then a situation would arise where a repeat of a theme in ROTJ would happen and it would play out "then strike him down and take your father's place at my side!"

Rather than see that directly in AOTC, we saw Dooku tempt Obi-Wan, "Join me and take your Master's place at my side" -referring to the dead Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan would not turn, but everyone (Tyranus/Dooku and we can assume Sidious/ Palpatine) now knows how volatile Anakin is. Plus if they've learned he's married, as Palpatine surely will, they will know how to get at him - through Padme, and to a lesser extent, through Obi-Wan (since Anakin rushed to rescue him). Of course Obi-Wan and Padme will be used as pawns in the Sith's attempt to turn Anakin, just as Han and Leia were used to lure Luke.

But why is Dooku specifically important in this? It could be so simple as to spark dissent concerning proceedure between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but it doesn't seem there needs to be any outside influence to do that, LOL. However, a focal point for Anakin's hatred if Dooku's soldiers are blamed for killing Padme? In my story, Dooku was the bait to take Anakin away from Padme's side so that Separatist forces could get to her while Anakin was engaged, lured by the chance to kill Dooku. Since Sidious is really manipulating these things, it makes some sense. Dooku might care less about Anakin, but he's not calling the shots anyway.

But could Dooku be Anakin's father? I made an effective case for that before but dismissed it because it was not revealed in Episode 2. I'll rehash those arguments in a minute, but here's some things that have to be added if it's possible.

1) Dooku doesn't know who Anakin Skywalker is, by name. He left before Obi-Wan returned with an apprentice, but he knew who Qui-Gon's apprentice had been. (Maybe they are going to CGI insert Dooku into Qui-Gon's funeral scene in TPM?)

2) Dooku might have had an illicit affair, like son - like father, but never knew that Shmi was pregnant, or believed she was dead and Palpatine discovered the truth about the whole affair when he researched Obi-Wan (because of Maul and Anakin), learned about Qui-Gon, which led him to Dooku where he made some amazing connections that even the audience hasn't yet. Remember, Palpatine knows everything. More than we do, at any rate.

3) Dooku doesn't know he was fighting his own son in Clones, nor does Anakin know about his father. This could be discovered after Anakin kills Dooku, or in between movies one of them learns the truth. Midichlorians and inherited skills and powers becomes validated through this.

4) Even if Anakin learns the truth, just as Luke Skywalker did, his father is guilty of trying to horribly kill his love interest (Padme - while Vader threatened Leia, even before Luke knew she was his sister, but perhaps that's the crux of the difference in why Anakin turns, and Luke doesn't - to protect the other sibling, who would have all the same powers and abilities Luke does - but is clearly not following the path to darkness. Anakin is alone. It's interesting why George makes Leia the sister and doesn't give the hero the girl in the end, right? Han could have been killed off.)

So the point is, Anakin knows and chooses to kill his own father. Like his mother once said, paraphrased, "[He] was no father. [He didn't] carry him. [He] didn't raise him." Dooku was not a part of Anakin's life, but he would destroy Obi-Wan and Padme - and Anakin's unborn child(ren) so Anakin has to hate him like he hated the Tusken Raiders who took his mother from him.

Perhaps Aurra Sing was hired to protect Anakin, because Dooku knew her and of her abilities. Another tie-in.

In my old story outline for this part (which like I said, I dismissed because no information about Episode 2 confirmed this and you think Shmi would have said something, or Dooku would have known he had a son???) but the plot points were something like this:

Dooku would be expelled from the Jedi Order.

They kept it a secret (him and Shmi)

Because he was a Jedi, his family was targeted by enemies (possibly) and his girl's parents were killed and she was sold into slavery with her 3 year old child (Anakin).

Dooku believed they were dead.

He told no one of this.

Qui-Gon was not his apprentice at this time:

1) Anakin was 9 in TPM, so when he was born that many years prior to that, Obi-Wan (24 in TPM) would have been 15. Jedi are apprenticed at age 13. So Obi-Wan would be with Qui-Gon, 35 yrs old then.

Therefore Qui-Gon would probably have been a Jedi Knight for 10 years beyond the time he'd trained with Dooku. Qui-Gon would have no knowledge of what his former master was doing, save for running into him on occasion at the Temple, and maybe they wrote each other.

2) Dooku would not have told Qui-Gon that he messed up with Shmi. They were keeping it a secret, right?

3) If he loved Shmi, and they were intimate, he would have told her about the life of a Jedi - about Qui-Gon Jinn, his one-time apprentice.

4) Shmi would know exactly WHO Qui-Gon was when her son brought him home from Watto's shop that day before the podrace. So when Anakin won his freedom, that is the reason she let her only son leave with Qui-Gon, Jedi Knight or not. (I mean don't the Jedi have to go through some kind of legal adoption process anyway?) So while Qui-Gon didn't know who Shmi was, there was something familiar to him about Anakin - well, duh: he was his former master's son.

But why would George make no mention of this in Episode 2 if it was true? That part of the plot is moving slower than ANH-ESB, when Vader was trying to kill Luke (in his TIE fighter) and didn't know he had a son. It's true these revelations would take 10 seconds during Episode 3, but the guilt and reprocussions could manifest themselves in a black mask! Hmmmm.

It makes you think. E3 would then really be a sensory overload!

Tycho
05-23-2002, 12:38 AM
We have a new problem here. Part of it has to do with a hole in my Han Solo is a clone theory, so bear with the analysis of that until we get to a hole in the whole prequel's FACTUAL continuity as established by TPM and AOTC!

Yup.

This has to do with exactly who Darth Tyranus is and how long he's been working with the Sith. I think I've uncovered evidence that he had to be there BEFORE Darth Maul was killed.

More than 2 there are - from a certain point of view...

take a bite into this - think about the implications not just for Han, but for Dooku. This could help speculation on Sifo-Dyas possibly, too (though I've yet to see how).

Here it is:


There's the idea that a lot of the Stormtroopers from the Classic movies are enlisted, volunteers, and forcibly recruited from across the galaxy.

Maybe the best of the best are still Clones, but that doesn't mean that they are from Han's template either. He STILL could be a Clone made back in the days 29 years before ANH.

Hmmm. Which means either Han had growth acceleration, or there was another cloning project going on at the same time as Kamino's, because Han couldn't possibly have been grown AFTER the Jedi took command of Kamino's Republic Clones. He looks way older than 22. If there age acceleration is geometric, that could solve this problem.

Anyway if Boba was started perhaps 2 years before TPM, Han had to be started about 3 years after TPM. But Jango would still be the donor, alive and well then....

So, 3 years after Maul died, did Palpatine tell his new apprentice Dooku, that in 'x' amount more years, he (Dooku that is) would need his own clone army? So Dooku got one going for the Separatists?

Also, something else doesn't make sense. If Tyranus replaced Maul, but recruited Jango Fett "on one of the moons of Bogden" a long enough time ago for Boba to be at least 12 in AOTC (no growth acceleration on Boba), than Tyranus was involved in this thing BEFORE Darth Maul died!

Interesting. Very interesting. Or the Clones were unrelated to the Sith plot until Palpatine found out about them after Maul died. But I doubt that. Palpatine's role is to know everything....

Hmmm. A new puzzle we have here, regardless if Han is or is not a Clone....

derek
05-23-2002, 01:21 AM
tycho,

i like your scriptment.:)

is there EU speculation that han solo is a clone? i never heard that before.

darthvyn
05-23-2002, 01:23 AM
maybe it wasn't tyranus, but palpatine himself taking a surprising step out of the shadows to make the order for the clones from kamino... of course now we get back into the whole sidious/sifo-dias conundrum.

also, it might be possible for more than two people to be using the dark side of the force at the same time, but maybe only two can be called "sith" at any given time. dooku might have been in on the plot from before the time of TPM, but didn't take the name darth tyranus until after maul's demise. i mean, in jedi, both vader and palpatine are vying for luke's allegiance against the other one. at the moment he killed either one, he was the new sith. i think we all can agree that he was dangerously close to the dark side during that whole process. things to ponder...

Tycho
05-23-2002, 02:15 AM
Derek, there's never been any EU story that supports Han being a Clone.

But much of his origins are a mystery even with the stuff filled in about Denn Solo, Thrackan Sal-Solo (Han's grandfather and cousin respectively).

I thought of the irony in the line "No mystical energy field controls my destiny" had Han been created to serve the Sith purpose (as a Clone Warrior) and on top of that, be the mercenary never claiming he wanted to get involved with the Princess' Rebellion, but by his own actions, being literally a rebel of sorts, since the actual day Leia was born. Han just didn't see it that way...yet.

Finally, that he would be the one independent Clone, Han Solo, and that Jango's offspring from a previous Clone line would be the pilot of Slave-One, I thought there were too many cute clues pointing us in this direction.

In mythology, or movies, or something, I always remember the character that should be a bad-guy but switches sides and turns out a reluctant hero. In "Willow" it was Sorcha - the evil Queen's daughter no less. Even in Transformers it was Jetfire, who was created a Decepticon. In Blade, it actually IS Blade - a vampire out for justice for humanity.

Han Solo was perfect amongst the classic cast to hold this secret backstory.

It wouldn't be Luke or Leia, because they didn't know their heritage to have been raised, or trained by Vader.

Han has the chance to fit that profile, not to mention the fact that his arch enemy is Boba Fett.

It's just my theory and as far as I know, I was the first to start saying that.

darthvyn
05-24-2002, 11:24 AM
okay, so i guess i should start out with what my theories on what we will see in episode III will be...

we will see anakin become vader (if in name only.)

we will see the birth of at least one skywalker child.

we will see the meaning of the balance prophecy (so far, no one has put this in their list of plot devices for III - too important...)

we will see the fight between obi-wan and anakin (as vader?)

we will see obi-wan fight alongside bail organa in the clone wars.

we will learn why the jedi's power over the force is diminished (part of the balance prophecy?)

we will see the declaration of an empire.


let the arguements and speculations commence!!!

Tycho
05-24-2002, 04:22 PM
"General Obi-Wan Kenobi: Years ago you SERVED my father in the Clone Wars..."

Does not imply he fought beside him. Bail Organa was in the 'Loyalist' faction of the Senate, which seems to stand for unity and a peaceful resolution. They didn't want war, but they got it. Since Bail is a Republic official, and Clones are looking to Jedi to be their Generals, that's all this means. Obi-Wan was a General in that he was a Clone Army Commander. He served Bail Organa not by serving Alderaan, but by serving the loyalists.

Yes, he could involve himself in Alderaan's private military (before their disarmament) and Bail Organa could somehow end up fighting along side him, but I think Bail Organa will be alongside other Loyalists like Amidala, and the whole point of Anakin's fear and blame he lays on Obi-Wan Kenobi is that neither of them knows what's happened to Padme and Anakin thinks she's dead along with his unborn child - and that will make him very angry and vengeful like we saw him when his mother died.

Bail will fight, but to escape being a hostage and to save Amidala.

I don't think Obi-Wan will have many scenes with him or much of a relationship. Padme will tell Bail she trusts him, and most of Bail's and Obi-Wan's knowledge of each other will be established off-screen.

That's my opinion anyway. Mostly a plot point to develop the reasons Anakin and Obi-Wan do battle.

I also don't think he'll fight Obi-Wan as Darth Vader. 2 conflicts with him in the same movie? There isn't time, plus there's some major background Council Member Jedi that Vader can get some action time with.

Like I think I stated before, if Vader (as Vader) and Obi-Wan meet, it won't be a fight - but a warning - "Do not come back here! Ever!" and Vader might know about his son, named with the ultra-disguised last name Luke Skywalker, so no one would guess he's related to Anakin Skywalker. (yes that was sarcasm).

But it's Vader trusting his former father figure to take care of his son. Many of us are raised by our grandparents. That could make sense too. Vader sounds regretful he has to do what he does in ANH: "You should not have come back!" He also doesn't just send a squad of stormtroopers to face him: "I must face him: alone!"

So if Obi-Wan and Vader meet, don't expect a fight.

darthvyn
05-24-2002, 05:35 PM
okay, well i didn't mean LITERALLY like, back to back... but they must have more of a relationship than that for leia to know who obi-wan is... and leia is given the information of where ben is living at the time of iv by someone, presumably leia's father.

as for the whole anakin/vader thing, i think he will confront obi-wan only after he has turned, and possibly taken the name of vader... i don't mean to say that he will look like vader as we know him in OT.

die-jarjar-die
05-24-2002, 08:13 PM
A previous post mentions the Balance Prophecy & it needing to be addressed & concluded in Ep3. Now I don't know about any of you, but my understanding of the whole prophecy thing is that Anakin IS the Chosen one but fails to bring balance to the Force until ROTJ (his killing of the Emperor ends the line of the Sith heritage & also finally destroys the power the Dark Side has had over the "light" side). Anakin walks a fine line between his Destiny as the Chosen One & being consumed by the Dark side. Had his Mother not been in mortal danger his path would have been a very different one. Continuing with his Jedi training & earning the title Jedi Knight, he may very well have fulfilled the Prophecy & destroyed the Sith, bringing the Force back into balance. As we know from Ep4 this is not the case. Perhaps then we need to redefine our understanding of the Prophecy.........

In fact we have no knowledge of what the Prophecy actually states.........This could be elaborated in Ep3, perhaps the Chosen One MUST face the Dark Side to destroy it (ala Luke becoming a Sith in Dark Empire, this is EU I know, but it seems that more & more EU ideas are being used as the prequels develop) from within. Tie this in to Anakins redemption at the end of ROTJ & you have one possible explanation of the Balance of the Force.

darthvyn
05-24-2002, 09:59 PM
my theory that i've stated elsewhere (and from what i gather other people's theory too...) was that the prophecy IS true, but it isn't really a good thing for the jedi:

yoda says in menace: "only two there are, no more, no less..." about the sith.

there are only two fully trained jedi that we know of alive in OT, ben and yoda.

that's the balance. two jedi, and two sith.

i also feel that this ties into the whole jedi's diminished power thing, because it seems to me that if you have like, 2000 jedi all using the good side of the force, and only 2 sith using the dark side, the good comes out diluted, and the dark comes out strong, of one purpose...

if he kills the dark side of the force, only the light remains, and that's not balanced. i really think the balance comes into play in ep. III and it's not a good prophecy. unless you count the fact that the remaining jedi (who are allowed to live) are just as powerful now as the sith... then it's a good prophecy, from a certain point of view... the point of view from the guy who didn't get slaughtered in a jedi holocaust...

darthvyn
05-25-2002, 03:19 PM
so here's something that popped into my mind during that edge-of-consciousness before just waking up this morning...

bear in mind that i don't think this is too possible as a plot point, but is pretty plausible.

another interpretation of why ben says that vader murdered anakin skywalker is that it actually happened...

suppose the emperor cloned anakin (they could have somehow gotten the lopped-off arm,) and using accelerated growth and torturous education processes, created vader, who then killed anakin to take his place...

now, before everyone says "but ben later says that vader is luke's father..." maybe he's lying then, just because the whole story is so convoluted, to make it easier he just says, sure vader it telling the truth. "he IS your father... (from a certain point of view...)" yoda also says that it's unexpected. maybe the reason why they didn't bother changing luke's name is that they thought vader didn't have anakin's memories and thoughts, as if he was brought up as darth vader. but maybe somehow, through the dark side of the force, sidioius gave his clone all of anakin's memories...

remember, not too likely but very plausible

once again, let the arguements commence!!!

Pendo
05-26-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
so here's something that popped into my mind during that edge-of-consciousness before just waking up this morning...

bear in mind that i don't think this is too possible as a plot point, but is pretty plausible.

another interpretation of why ben says that vader murdered anakin skywalker is that it actually happened...

suppose the emperor cloned anakin (they could have somehow gotten the lopped-off arm,) and using accelerated growth and torturous education processes, created vader, who then killed anakin to take his place...

now, before everyone says "but ben later says that vader is luke's father..." maybe he's lying then, just because the whole story is so convoluted, to make it easier he just says, sure vader it telling the truth. "he IS your father... (from a certain point of view...)" yoda also says that it's unexpected. maybe the reason why they didn't bother changing luke's name is that they thought vader didn't have anakin's memories and thoughts, as if he was brought up as darth vader. but maybe somehow, through the dark side of the force, sidioius gave his clone all of anakin's memories...

remember, not too likely but very plausible

once again, let the arguements commence!!!

Interesting thought darthvyn but I don't think it would work well. Maybe it would be better if the real Anakin kills the clone Anaakin, but the audience do not know which is which as the real Anakin is now evil.

PENDO!

Eternal Padawan
05-26-2002, 12:02 PM
And none of this is resolved in the OT, which it would have to be. Anakin is the father. there is no clone. he goes evil and turns into Vader.

DeadEye
05-26-2002, 04:18 PM
Well, it's almost a given that Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader WILL fight, and it will be beyond anything seen in any of the other movies... and if Vader fights all these other Jedi too, Ep3 will probably have more lightsaber duels than any other movie...and that's not a bad thing. :D

darthvyn
05-28-2002, 05:48 PM
well, any way it happens, i think that ep III should start with anakin becoming a full jedi knight, and end with his initiation into the sith. i think this is really the central theme to the saga, and as the central movie, it would be really a good way to go...

die-jarjar-die
06-01-2002, 12:20 AM
I've just been reading through Tycho's scriptment & as this forum is where we are meant to air our ideas to "help" the scriptment along...heres my two pence....

Whilst reading the section about JarJar being shamed about "authorising" the Senate to "create" a Clone Army something occured to me.. something just didn't sit right..Why would JarJar be blamed?

IMO I think the finger of blame WILL be pointed towards the Jedi. It perfectly sets up the anti Jedi sentiment & also perfectly sets up the Jedi Purge, which we KNOW is going to occur in Ep3 (whether we see it or not is a different matter).

My argument to support this is as follows;

1. It is a JEDI who leads the Seperatist Faction, no matter what Dooku's reasons are, or his involvment with the Sith, the fact remains that HE WAS A JEDI.

2. It will probably come to light, through Palpatines machinations, that it was a JEDI who ordered the Clone Army in the first place, an order made under a shroud of secrecy, without the knowledge or approval of the Senate.

****The above point I feel WILL be extremely pivotal in creating Anti Jedi feeling in the Republic. Palpatine would be in the position to SECURE absolute power & declare himself Emperor. Why should the Republic, who have always seen the Jedi as their protectors, have any faith or trust in an Order that has, in essence, betrayed the Republic & plunged the entire Galaxy into Civil War*****

3. In AOTC, the Jedi, actually Yoda, one of the Senior members of the Jedi Council, travels to Kamino, commandeers the Clones & journeys to Geonosis to rescue 1 (actually 2) of their own. This action results in the commencement of full scale war (read CLONE WARS) between the Seperatists & the Republic.

To mirror Dooku's line in AOTC "My Master will not allow the Republic to get away with this treachery", perhaps in Ep3 the very fact that the Clone Wars start as a direct result of the rogue actions of the Jedi, as mentioned above, will enable Palpatine to "suggest" that the the Republic be placed under his, & HIS newly created Clones, protection.

This could also allow for a new angle in plot development, where the Jedi, now classed as outlaws & possibly hunted down for crimes against the Republic, join forces with what remains of the Seperatist Forces, against Palpatines NEW ORDER, creating, in a manner of speaking, a REBELLION against the EMPIRE????

Tycho
06-01-2002, 12:47 AM
Oh, I quite agree with die-JarJar-die.

This is exactly how it will happen.

As to it relating to anti-JarJar sentiment amongst the characters? Again I mean it to state that only Padme might harbor blame on this towards JarJar. She left him in charge.

Jedi Clint
06-01-2002, 01:41 AM
That was the entire point of using Sifo-Dyas identity to order the clones for the Republic. I don't know how many times I had to point out the obvious before people started to catch on in the Sifo-Dyas Q and A topic in the AOTC forum.

I have but one modification to add to what djjd posted. I don't think the separatists will become the Rebellion we see in ANH. I think Palpatine will reunite both sides into his Empire. His popularity would be incredible. He has created a division in the Republic from the shadows, and he will unify it in broad day light.

Tycho
06-01-2002, 01:58 AM
Oops. I forgot about that last part of Die-JarJar's post.

Guess what? I also agree with what Jedi Clint just said. :)

Jedi Clint
06-01-2002, 02:33 AM
Hey Tycho,

If you get a chance, check out the history of the Samurai in Japan and how their fate was sealed by the formation of the Empire in that country (if you haven't already). I had a report on T'Bone's site a long time ago about it (back when it was www.starwarz.com). I got the info out of the encyclopedia from a meriad of entries on Japan, it's fuedal system, it's Empire, it's Samurai, etc.

The story of the Samurai is basically the story of the Jedi and their relationship with the governing body they serve in a period of change. Anakin's story has a basis in the downfall of the Samurai, as a few of them joined the Empire's social order while the rest were destroyed little by little each time they rose up in Rebellion against the Emperor of Japan. Even the strife between the factions of the Republic as we saw it in AOTC has it's counterpart in Japanese history. Many believed that the capitol of fuedal Japan had become corrupt and no longer served it's citizens. They sought to move the capitol to a new city and war broke out. The Emperor unified Japan and created a central military to keep order. Sound familiar? ;) I admit I am a bit rusty on my Japanese history in comparison to a couple of years ago when I educated myself on it for the purpose of deducing the plot to the prequel trilogy, but I think I have successfully reiterated a majority of what I learned for this post.

Tycho
06-01-2002, 03:20 AM
That was cool info, JC! Thanks for sharing.

darthvyn
06-01-2002, 05:46 PM
i think the whole topic of the samauri lends credence to my theory of the balance prophecy. it's kind of like the concept of yin-yang, if either side is out of balance, then there is turmoil.

Jedi Clint
06-01-2002, 06:41 PM
If you are referring to the theory that the number of Jedi or Sith has something to do with the force being out of balance, then I'm sorry but I don't see the connection to the Samurai at all. It doesn't lend support to that theory in any way.

darthvyn
06-01-2002, 07:50 PM
i'm talking about the correlation that the two themes involved have roots in eastern philosophy and politics. you can't deny that lucas is strongly influenced by all sorts of eastern ideas...

Jedi Clint
06-01-2002, 08:16 PM
In that case, I agree. I wonder if Lucas' interest in eastern culture began with his appreciation for the films of Akira Kurosawa.

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 02:20 PM
if you watch Seven Samauri, you can almost tell what lucas took from that movie... there's even a pair of comic relief characters that could be construed as the basis for 3P0 and R2... that movie is really cool...

Jedi Clint
06-02-2002, 03:08 PM
Don't forget the fight in the rain :)

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 03:18 PM
didn't even think about that... i still love the guy who goes off and steals the gun, kinda like ben going off to disable the tractor beam alone. and mifune is definately the inspiration for solo...

Tycho
06-05-2002, 05:08 PM
REASONS ANAKIN WONT BE SHOWN AS VADER / PROOF ITS 4 YEARS

OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

die-jarjar-die
06-05-2002, 06:38 PM
*OMG, I've gone cross eyed*

darthvyn
06-05-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

i think you're relying on attention deficit disorder a little too much. lol...

anakin IS referred to as a jedi KNIGHT, not just a jedi (and definitely not as a padawan...) i still maintain that he will be kicked out only after he completes the trials.

i just think it gets too convoluted to try to hide the identities... you made d-jj-d go cross-eyed! people were complaining about how AOC's crawl made no sense, imagine when they try to explain why anakin is no longer obi-wan's apprentice and what he's doing now... also, who obi-wan's apprentice is... i don't know, man...

Tycho
06-05-2002, 07:57 PM
Obi-Wan won't have another apprentice after Anakin (I'd strongly doubt that they'd introduce another character - at least one of consequence).

People can wonder who Obi-Wan's pupil-who-turned-to-evil was, if they had not seen ESB, and ROTJ yet (and didn't know).


The opening scroll can just say the facts quite simply:

For four years the Clone Wars have devastated the Republic. Anakin Skywalker has been aiding Supreme Chancellor Palpatine to negotiate for peace in the galaxy.

The Republic has been pushed to its limits, and the Jedi Knights have seen their numbers horribly reduced.

and then something about Padme Skywalker trying to work diplomatically or to aide refugees.

THEN YOU WATCH THE MOVIE - if you've never seen ANY of the other 5 films before, you will be able to SEE:

Padme's Pregnant

Obi-Wan Hologram Calls Anakin: "Anakin Skywalker, once you served the Jedi as my padawan. Now I have at long last located the renegade Count Dooku. I call upon you to honor your pledge to serve me once more. I cannot take Dooku alone and now I plead for you to help. Together, we can stop the Dark Lord and fulfill your destiny to bring balance to the Force. Help me Anakin Skywalker. You're my only hope."

Can you understand all that?

"Once you served the Jedi as my padawan..."

-Tells you Anakin is no longer a Jedi.

Padme's stomach is quite larger than a trip to Dexter's Diner would allow.

-Tells you she's pregnant.

Anakin kisses Padme goodbye, serves Chancellor Palpatine.

-Tells you who he's made his commitment to now.

Anakin leaves to help Obi-Wan end Count Dooku's insurrection.

-Tells you he feels loyalty to this Obi-Wan Guy.

It's that simple!

----------------------------------------------------------

Darthyn: I think you want to see the Jedi Trials. I think that's an interest for you.

I don't think you will - not to mention the fact that every Jedi must face Trials customized to THEM, personally.

There is no obstacle course, grade level equivalency test, or some feat they have to perform like levitate the Jedi Temple.

You have to face your greatest fear - and / or your greatest weakness.

I think Obi-Wan's facing a Sith Lord was enough for the Council - as if Maul knew what he was doing - he exploited all of Obi-Wan's weaknesses:

Fear of losing his beloved Master.

Temper and his quest for revenge.

Pride and his arrogance at showing off his superiority with a lightsaber.

Tunnel vision - that the only way they would decide their conflict was by a lightsaber - Maul called upon the Force.

It was almost Obi-Wan's undoing. So you saw Obi-Wan's Trial!

Morelikely, for other Jedi, their trials are on specific missions they must go on. Some might have to face their roots and their natural families. Dooku was one who had left a family of great wealth to become a Jedi. He's one source from which the Separatists are getting their money (official site information).

Perhaps in defeating Dooku, Anakin is made a full Jedi Knight. Though with his leaving the order, I doubt it. Instead he would become the 'oldest padawan to graduate' if he went back to his training. This might be something the Jedi are desperate for, but I think it is more Obi-Wan wanting to bring Anakin back into the fold, rather than the rest of the Jedi encouraging it.

I still think that you believe "Jedi Knight" cannot be used as a generality for someone who is Force-sensitive and had 10 years plus of Jedi Training (Anakin age 9 to age 19).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway:

Why would Anakin be kicked out of the Jedi Order after he has completed his Trials?

I totally don't think it will happen this way and I want you to explain that.

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 08:08 PM
I don't think he'll be kicked out at all. He is important to the Jedi for 3 reasons. The first because in a time of galatic war, every warrior is important. The second being that he is "the chosen one". They won't kick him out for a minor offense. Finally, I think Anakin and Padme will keep their union a secret....and that will destroy them.

Tycho
06-05-2002, 08:24 PM
I posted this in the other thread, but it relates to why Anakin must be kicked out (or Quit) to fit with the plotline.



You DO figure out Luke must be the son of Anakin Skywalker in watching ANH, but it is a nice "surprise" if you see it all in order for the first time.

However, if Luke is Anakin's son, and Anakin was Obi-Wan's obvious first apprentice, then when did Obi-Wan train this pupil of his, Darth Vader, that killed Anakin like Obi-Wan said had happened?

It can't be after Anakin died, because he then had to be alive to father Luke.

So if Obi-Wan trained someone that killed Anakin after he fathered Luke, when would Obi-Wan get the time?

There are 2 conclusions:

1) Anakin actually IS Darth Vader and we think Obi-Wan is lying right from the get-go before we ever see ESB, meaning Anakin is still alive...

or

2) While Anakin left the Jedi Order, Obi-Wan trained a new Padawan that turned to evil, and this padawan theory could have some credence (if we didn't already know the truth from ESB) because the padwan would be 17 by Episode 3 at the YOUNGEST, which is still old enough to be believed capable of taking out a 23 year old Anakin who never completed his training.

Theory 2 preserves some mystery until you see Empire Strikes Back

Theory 1 is the correct one. -and I think you knew that.

But because theory 2 CAN EXIST and still not be irrefutably denied until you watch Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, it supports my argument that Anakin quits or gets kicked out of the Jedi Order during the 4 years between E2 and E3 movies.


__________________

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 09:04 PM
I'm sorry Tycho, I don't think Anakin must be kicked out. I think it goes against foreshadowing in AOTC. They will keep their union a secret, and it will destroy them. I also don't think Obi Wan has to take another apprentice to keep confirmation of Vader's identity in AOTC. As far as someone watching the films 1 - 6 for the first time is concerned:

Obi Wan fibs to Luke to gain his trust and follow him on an adventure into a bigger "world". Because they know he "killed" him.

Their conversation doesn't hint at a duel identity for Vader. Ben is pinning the blame on the bad guy.

darthvyn
06-05-2002, 09:21 PM
i feel that the rank of jedi knight is conferred upon you only after the trials... that's exactly what yoda says to obi-wan after his battle with maul that you have cited AS his trial...

but in TPM, they make it seem as though the trials ARE something standardized... "i am grateful that you feel i am ready to face the trials..." trials, plural... as if there is some sort of gauntlet to be run, or something (not that i think that's it, but perhaps something similar to the testing of anakin's abilities at the council chamber in TPM...) i do like your breakdown of all the qualities that must be proven for knighthood, and how they are proven. however, since the sith were not seen by the jedi until the end of AOC ("the veil of the dark side is lifted") i doubt that the duel with maul is the only trial for obi-wan. if it is a specific mission they have to go on, what's the problem with seeing anakin's mission?

now, sure, sio bibble made the mistake of anakin as a full fledged jedi, but i don't think a jedi knight himself (ben) would. and i KNOW that the master would never call his padawan a knight unless his padawan was declared one.

anyway, i didn't realize you weren't talking about actually introducing a new padawan for obi-wan, only giving the audience enough time to feel like MAYBE he had taken another... if that is the case, i think that it's too subtle. i wouldn't expect anyone to surmise, "hmmm, maybe in that time he took on another padawan, and then the padawan died, or left, or disappeared or something..." too many unanswered questions.

and, yes, i do really have a fascination with the jedi trials. they've been set up too much to not have anything about them... and i also would like to know about the sith initiation. as i've stated elsewhere, or maybe even here, i would really like ep III to start out with anakin's brightest moment (his knighthood) and end with his darkest (sith initiation.) i think this would be a really good middle chapter, showing us a lot about the central theme of the saga.

once again, i feel that the story is going to suffer if we try to keep the secrets of the original trilogy intact. too much side-stepping, too much ambiguity.

if your mind's version of episode III suffers from maintaining the secrets of the original trilogy, then mine suffers from my theory on the balance prophecy. my theory is that anakin turns into vader, who systematically cuts down all but two jedi, reducing the ratio of jedi/sith to 1:1, thus balance. if we avoid anakin's turning into vader, this plot device falls flat. if we go by the idea that there is balance at the end of JEDI, there will have to be some sort of confimation of that in ep III, otherwise this plotline dangles throughout the saga.

and i really hope that you don't have the upper hand in this discourse with the help of any... spoilers? lol

Tycho
06-05-2002, 09:39 PM
No. No spoilers. I am enjoying this discussion the most because I'm trying to use my best abilities at logical reasoning to predict this.

Once spoilers do start to get out there, I will have to cease and desist in this forum (no spoilers E3 section). I won't be able to confirm my stuff (and gloat, vindicated) or I won't even be able to say I'm wrong (I think) and admit it, because that would give people too much information.

If I do learn something, I'll post in here and ask you guys if I can say I was right or wrong. That might be ok, but there are only so many turns this thing can take until it ends up with Anakin going where he must go.

But I also predict a lot of people are going to be very upset over Episode 3. Very angry, disillusioned, etc. I can see the expectations starting now and it will only get worse. The last film will be a let-down to the fans who haven't kept a grip on reality.

The critics will or won't like it. Nobody ever cares what they think, but the die-hard fans will be complaining and E3 will suffer poor ratings because of it. It is inevitable. It is its destiny.

But I think I will like it no matter what. More than E2? Difficult to see.

darthvyn
06-05-2002, 09:51 PM
i agree that there is already a lot of speculation, and this amount 3 years before the movie comes out can only lead to special pet plot devices that will eventually not even be in the flick, and widespread disappointment in those regards. however, i really do like all the movies made so far and don't anticipate hating the last one. i'll save that for the purists.

Tycho
06-06-2002, 02:51 AM
What are the purists? People that want exact copies of ANH and ESB?

OK then:

Padme has already had some baby as the movie opens. She is being pursued by the Separatists' sinister agents when her ship gets captured. So she stuffs her baby inside R2D2 and launches him in an escape pod.

Count Dooku has Padme taken away and carbon frozen. He gives her frozen form to Boba Fett to take to Nute Gunray for the price on her head.

Meanwhile, Anakin's Jedi Starfighter has crashed on a swampy moon of Coruscant where an old guy in a Dark Robe lives kind of like a hermit and starts to instruct him with a Sith Holocron. Anakin levitates his Jedi Starfighter and learns to use the Force to "Sith-choke" local swamp vermin.

R2 finds Threepio to take him to Obi-Wan Kenobi because he needs someone who can translate that "he's not a nanny droid and he doesn't do diapers." R2 burps, hiccups, and farts a lot in this movie.

Meanwhile, Anakin learns Padme has been captured and rushes to confront Nute Gunray and unfreeze her.....

At the same time Obi-Wan and several important Jedi Leaders are analyzing the technical schematics between Huggies and Pampers and trying to discover the advantages. For some yet unexplained reason, after R2 launches the first baby out of one of his dome portals, it STILL sounds like the little droid is crying...

Need I go on?

Purists....:rolleyes:

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 10:16 AM
that is really funny...

but, no, i'm talking about the people that don't even consider the prequels star wars movies, you know the kind...

die-jarjar-die
06-06-2002, 03:25 PM
Didn't GL state just before Ep2's release that a lot of people were going to be unhappy with Ep3?

I realise that he MAY have been referring to the movie goers en masse at the fact that Star Wars films, generally, have happy endings, or in the case of the OT, a happy conclusion, which we can basically guess/know are not going to get.. ..

But we also have to bear in mind that everything that seems to emerge from GL or RMC seems to have a double edge to it....

Perhaps he is, even at this time with 3 years yet to go, preparing the so called DIE HARD fans (& i dont mean the movie :-P ) to be extremely disappointed, perhaps to the end of actually hating Star Wars?

It is encouraging & at the same time worrying that so much speculation is already under way for what will most likely be the last star wars film, I remember reading a lot of fan speculation after EP1 came out regarding EP2......I wonder how those guys feel now? Disappointed? Let down? Who knows......

All we truely know is that whatever GL decides to write to conclude this truely Epic of Epics it will hold many surprises..........some might be good, some not so.....

As for the critics? Bah HUMBUG, I fart in their general directions... MUWAHHAHAHA......

I once read a review of Pearl Harbour that was soo positive I went to witness this phenomenom & after 3 hours/days/weeks/years/decades/centuries/millenia, well thats how it felt, I left the cinema feeling absolutely cheated & robbed of my precious life. I complained to the box office enquiring as to whether I could get a refund. Obviously was told I could not as there was not a problem with the films performance & if I didnt like it I should have left early & ten might have received one (thanks Odeon Weston). So........somewhere out there is a Film Critic that owes me bigtime! 3 hours of MY LIFE WHICH I CANNOT RECAPTURE.....How much do you think thats worth??????

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by die-jarjar-die
3 hours of MY LIFE WHICH I CANNOT RECAPTURE.....How much do you think thats worth??????

around these here parts, it's worth exactly $9.

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by die-jarjar-die
It is encouraging & at the same time worrying that so much speculation is already under way for what will most likely be the last star wars film, I remember reading a lot of fan speculation after EP1 came out regarding EP2......I wonder how those guys feel now? Disappointed? Let down? Who knows......

i have already expressed my sentiments in the same way... there is a lot of speculation going on, and that can only lead to certain "pet plot points" that everyone wants in the flick, that will inevitably never even be considered... i for one do not anticipate hating the flick. i really don't hate anything. except weathermen.

die-jarjar-die
06-06-2002, 04:03 PM
$9???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????

Jeez.......Couldn't you have lied or something & pretended it was like 100,000,000??

Now i feel cheap.....

:(

die-jarjar-die
06-06-2002, 04:09 PM
I,personally, prefer the darker, nastier ending that ESB offered. I'm sure a lot of ppl out there would agree.

I am quite looking forward to seeing how exactly GL wil tie up everything & lead us into Ep4, I'm sure he's got some great treats in store for us, perhaps even a few things that I won't like, but what the heck, there's moments of most of the films that I don't jump for joy at, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying them as a whole, the elemets that make Star Wars great far outway the bad points........

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 06:00 PM
i do really like the ending of Empire. it's just that no one had ever ended a movie like that, and i feel that ep III will have the same effect. it's going to be even darker than EMPIRE.

die-jarjar-die
06-07-2002, 11:34 PM
Hell yeah! I completely agree with you. If ESB currently holds the top slot as the fans fav SW movie (& lets face it, its coz the good guys get the stuffing knocked out of them) then Ep3 is gonna give it a run for its money, there is some morbid fascination in seeing the forces of good defeated, from what we can already summarise of Ep3 we are not going to be disappointed.....

darthvyn
06-09-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by die-jarjar-die
there is some morbid fascination in seeing the forces of good defeated

that's because there never has been a cohesive saga like this before, therefore to make everyone happy, a stand alone movie has to have a happy ending (read:ANH.) with individual movies that form a broader picture, lucas has the freedom to make a movie that goes against all the rules of the happy ending theory... can't wait.

question is, do you think the matrix will follow the same "cohesive saga" theory and leave us with a thoroughly depressing middle chapter? i think it would be pretty cool, but at the same time, they should do something totally different. they obviously revolutionized the industry with "bullet time."

Tycho
06-09-2002, 02:17 PM
They could end the whole Matrix saga on a down-note and challenge the public to break out of their stereotypes and conformity molds.

Such as all the heroes fail, Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo die, and now it's up to YOU!

That would rock!

stillakid
06-09-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


that's because there never has been a cohesive saga like this before, therefore to make everyone happy, a stand alone movie has to have a happy ending (read:ANH.) with individual movies that form a broader picture, lucas has the freedom to make a movie that goes against all the rules of the happy ending theory... can't wait.


Back to the Future 1, 2, and 3?

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 10:24 AM
back to the future (1) came out just as the OT was ending...

but they did use the formula... bttf 2- marty is left in 1955 because doc and the delorean are struck by lightning charging the time circuits with 1.21 gigawatts of electricity... to be concluded...

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
They could end the whole Matrix saga on a down-note and challenge the public to break out of their stereotypes and conformity molds.

Such as all the heroes fail, Morpheus, Trinity, and Neo die, and now it's up to YOU!

That would rock!

that would be cool. i would like to see a gloating agent smith 3.2 at the end...

stillakid
06-10-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


that's because there never has been a cohesive saga like this before, therefore to make everyone happy, a stand alone movie has to have a happy ending (read:ANH.) with individual movies that form a broader picture, lucas has the freedom to make a movie that goes against all the rules of the happy ending theory... can't wait.


He had to make ANH with a closed ending. While he had "more story" to tell, he had no idea if it could ever happen. So he didn't do make the "happy ending" because no one had ever done that before. He did it that way because for all he knew and expected, it was a stand alone movie and would remain that way.

Besides, there were plenty of movies, particularly in the 60's, that were stand alone's and had "down" endings. He wouldn't have been breaking any new ground in doing that.

Honestly, I have no idea what went on behind the scenes of Back to the Future, but I suspect that Ep II and III didn't really get drawn up in any meaningful way until the box office numbers on the original started coming in. So the same situation existed there.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 03:27 PM
"Great Scott!"

"That is so heavy, Doc!"

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by stillakid


He had to make ANH with a closed ending. While he had "more story" to tell, he had no idea if it could ever happen. So he didn't do make the "happy ending" because no one had ever done that before. He did it that way because for all he knew and expected, it was a stand alone movie and would remain that way.

okay, so maybe not an "unhappy ending," but a non-resolution ending, something that was obviously going to be continued. i know that ANH had to be a happy ending because lucas had no idea if the movie would fly at all, thus there would be NO sequels if the movie tanked. i think we're saying the same thing, just in different ways.


Originally posted by stillakid

Honestly, I have no idea what went on behind the scenes of Back to the Future, but I suspect that Ep II and III didn't really get drawn up in any meaningful way until the box office numbers on the original started coming in. So the same situation existed there.

therefore, the formula holds true more so than ever... they made the first, then decided to tack on 2 and 3.

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn


that would be cool. i would like to see a gloating agent smith 3.2 at the end...

sort of like, your technology will be your downfall...

(i just quoted myself... i'm so full of myself, it's silly...)

Tycho
10-29-2002, 11:24 PM
Ah - here's my theoretical story. There's still no production spoilers that we've learned, so this thread is still safe and ALL speculation.

El Chuxter
06-09-2010, 04:17 PM
Man, T, it needs a bit of tightening up, but this is a better outline for Episode III than what we got. It seems like it should acually be II-III, with TPM being cut out.

Darth Metalmute
06-09-2010, 04:24 PM
I can't wait for GL to reboot Episode II so that it is actually good. I mean, it couldn't get worse, could it?

Tycho
06-12-2010, 04:55 AM
I have to re-read this thread!

questorminator
06-29-2010, 11:26 PM
I can't wait for GL to reboot Episode II so that it is actually good. I mean, it couldn't get worse, could it?

Hmmmm.... Naah. We could always dream. GL would probably add more CG but that's it.