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Pendo
05-24-2002, 05:52 AM
Do you think Attack Of The Clones makes The Phantom Menace a better film?

I think TPM is a poor film as a stand alone, but with AOTC many of the questions have been answered and explained. I'd still give it my original rating of 7/10 but I think it is a better film to watch and enjoy knowing that Attack of the Clones comes after it.

Do you think it's better now AOTC was a success?

PENDO!

derek
05-24-2002, 08:42 AM
i'm just curious, but what questions were answered? the guy from "ain't it cool news" said the same thing.

187-Maul
05-24-2002, 10:03 AM
I liked the movie from the beginning but like it more now that I've seen it a couple of times more and like you said pendo it is better with AOTC cause it's not that alone-standing with the new cgi characters and stuff
still AOTC is much better

Darth Nihilus
05-24-2002, 01:09 PM
No, as much as I try I still can't think of anything from AotC that really makes sense of TPM. It also doesn't help that the movies are so different in flavour. TPM is still way too juvenile for me.

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 06:23 PM
IMO, AOTC actually makes Ep 1 a worse film in a couple of ways:

- Ep 2 is needed to make Ep 1 make sense;
- Ep 2 really doesn't need much from Ep 1 to make sense.

I may not love Ep 2, but I think it's a better stand-alone film than Ep 1. Ep 1 is on shakey ground and doesn't contribute all that much to Ep 2, as I see it. Ep 1 may fit better into the saga thanks to Ep 2, but I think that statement makes Ep 1 a worse movie.

DarthBrandon
05-24-2002, 06:32 PM
TMP isn't a better film cause of ATOC, even though I liked both except Jar Jar in TMP, I think ATOC would have been a better starting point with brief and I mean brief visual outline of Anakin being found and brought to the Jedi council.Then resume where ATOC starts off.

Beast
05-24-2002, 06:39 PM
I disagree JediTricks. E1 set alot of things up for Episode II. Here is just a few examples of things that carry on into E2's story.

Anakin's relationship with his mother, had we not seen how happy the two of them were, even though they were slaves, we wouldn't have as much emotional impact when Shmi dies in E2.

Jar Jar Bink's heroism and assistance to the Jedi's and Naboo, leading to him being appointed a Senator that gives Palpatine his Emergancy powers, changing the galaxy drastically.

Qui-Gon's death being the final straw to Dooku, and him leaving the order. Why he joined up with Sidious is unknown, perhaps he wanted to make the galxy a better place, and felt that the Jedi's were to arrogent for to be part of the change.

Palpatine and Anakin's relationship, it all began with Palpatine stating he was going to keep a close eye on young Anakin. Now in Episode II he's become somewhat of a father figure, or mentor for the now grown up Anakin.

Obi-Wan showing his defiance of the Council. Wanting to train Anakin even though the council and especially Yoda thought it was a bad idea. Now in E2 we can see the start that they were correct. That Anakin is to hot headed and arrogent, and Obi-Wan can bearly control him.

The failing of the droid army from E1, led to the creation of the Clone Army. If they would have been a succesful army, then we wouldn't have gotten to the Stormtroopers of the OT. Not to mention the failings of the Neimodians, and Padme's group defeating Nute Gunray's forces, his hatred for her led to the assassination attempt to kill her in revenge.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JediTricks
05-24-2002, 06:57 PM
Anakin's relationship with his mother, had we not seen how happy the two of them were, even though they were slaves, we wouldn't have as much emotional impact when Shmi dies in E2.
- The emotional impact of a son having his mother die in his arms wouldn't be enough for you?

Jar Jar Bink's heroism and assistance to the Jedi's and Naboo, leading to him being appointed a Senator that gives Palpatine his Emergancy powers, changing the galaxy drastically.
- Why didn't we see Orn Free Taa's rise to senator, or Bail Organa's? Almost any senator could have been manipulated into making this blunder that gave Palpi that power.

Qui-Gon's death being the final straw to Dooku, and him leaving the order. Why he joined up with Sidious is unknown, perhaps he wanted to make the galxy a better place, and felt that the Jedi's were to arrogent for to be part of the change.
- Er... what part of the film is this in again?

Palpatine and Anakin's relationship, it all began with Palpatine stating he was going to keep a close eye on young Anakin. Now in Episode II he's become somewhat of a father figure, or mentor for the now grown up Anakin.
- Then why didn't we see QGJ and OWK meet for the first time, or Dooku and QGJ, or Yoda and OWK? That last one actually would have fit in with the classic trilogy; I don't think we needed to see Palpatine pat a 9 year old Ani on the head in Ep 1 to explain his personal relationship with 20 year old Ani in Ep 2.

Obi-Wan showing his defiance of the Council. Wanting to train Anakin even though the council and especially Yoda thought it was a bad idea. Now in E2 we can see the start that they were correct. That Anakin is to hot headed and arrogent, and Obi-Wan can bearly control him.
- Er... since Ep 1 made that up, it didn't have a classic trilogy foundation, I don't see how you can say it was neccessary. It could just as easily have been a throw-away piece of dialogue between Ani and Obi-Wan on the Coruscant bus in Ep 2:
ANI: Master, I know we don't always see eye-to-eye on things, but thank you for going against the council and teaching me the ways of the Force.
OBI-WAN: Sure thing.

The failing of the droid army from E1, led to the creation of the Clone Army. If they would have been a succesful army, then we wouldn't have gotten to the Stormtroopers of the OT. Not to mention the failings of the Neimodians, and Padme's group defeating Nute Gunray's forces, his hatred for her led to the assassination attempt to kill her in revenge.
- I don't remember anybody saying the failure of the droid army in Ep 1 led to the creation of the clone army in Ep 2. In fact, if you look at Holonet News these past few weeks, it appears that Sidious' plan went well beyond the Naboo blockade; it involved refugees and civil war and the manipulation of major corporations.

The only thing Ep 1 does is to show how Palpatine became the chancellor, and since we never saw how Palpi became a senator to begin with, I can't imagine that Ep 1 is really the beginning of the story - thus, Palpatine's chancellorship could have been explained in Ep 2's opening crawl or by some comment of Bail Organa's.

derek
05-24-2002, 10:26 PM
jeditricks,

a while back, on the old forums, i got you to do a re-write of the episode 1 you would of liked to have seen made, and i thought you did a pretty good job. a few pages back on this forum, i have a thread with a list of things i thought could of made episode 2 a better film. if you get a chance, i'd like to see what you would add to make episode 2 better, or better yet, re-write.:)

stillakid
05-24-2002, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by JediTricks
Anakin's relationship with his mother, had we not seen how happy the two of them were, even though they were slaves, we wouldn't have as much emotional impact when Shmi dies in E2.
- The emotional impact of a son having his mother die in his arms wouldn't be enough for you?

Jar Jar Bink's heroism and assistance to the Jedi's and Naboo, leading to him being appointed a Senator that gives Palpatine his Emergancy powers, changing the galaxy drastically.
- Why didn't we see Orn Free Taa's rise to senator, or Bail Organa's? Almost any senator could have been manipulated into making this blunder that gave Palpi that power.

Qui-Gon's death being the final straw to Dooku, and him leaving the order. Why he joined up with Sidious is unknown, perhaps he wanted to make the galxy a better place, and felt that the Jedi's were to arrogent for to be part of the change.
- Er... what part of the film is this in again?

Palpatine and Anakin's relationship, it all began with Palpatine stating he was going to keep a close eye on young Anakin. Now in Episode II he's become somewhat of a father figure, or mentor for the now grown up Anakin.
- Then why didn't we see QGJ and OWK meet for the first time, or Dooku and QGJ, or Yoda and OWK? That last one actually would have fit in with the classic trilogy; I don't think we needed to see Palpatine pat a 9 year old Ani on the head in Ep 1 to explain his personal relationship with 20 year old Ani in Ep 2.

Obi-Wan showing his defiance of the Council. Wanting to train Anakin even though the council and especially Yoda thought it was a bad idea. Now in E2 we can see the start that they were correct. That Anakin is to hot headed and arrogent, and Obi-Wan can bearly control him.
- Er... since Ep 1 made that up, it didn't have a classic trilogy foundation, I don't see how you can say it was neccessary. It could just as easily have been a throw-away piece of dialogue between Ani and Obi-Wan on the Coruscant bus in Ep 2:
ANI: Master, I know we don't always see eye-to-eye on things, but thank you for going against the council and teaching me the ways of the Force.
OBI-WAN: Sure thing.

The failing of the droid army from E1, led to the creation of the Clone Army. If they would have been a succesful army, then we wouldn't have gotten to the Stormtroopers of the OT. Not to mention the failings of the Neimodians, and Padme's group defeating Nute Gunray's forces, his hatred for her led to the assassination attempt to kill her in revenge.
- I don't remember anybody saying the failure of the droid army in Ep 1 led to the creation of the clone army in Ep 2. In fact, if you look at Holonet News these past few weeks, it appears that Sidious' plan went well beyond the Naboo blockade; it involved refugees and civil war and the manipulation of major corporations.

The only thing Ep 1 does is to show how Palpatine became the chancellor, and since we never saw how Palpi became a senator to begin with, I can't imagine that Ep 1 is really the beginning of the story - thus, Palpatine's chancellorship could have been explained in Ep 2's opening crawl or by some comment of Bail Organa's.

Thank you for that. My answers were brewing as I scrolled down and found your post.

Speaking of the opening crawl, this one was the most convoluted yet. Be that as it may, every bit of information that is necessary from Ep I could easily have been written into a crawl or said in, as you say, a throw-away line somewhere thus eliminating the need for Ep I altogether. There was so little crucial information given in TPM that the story can easily be picked up with Ep II. He essentially wasted two precious hours out of his alloted 6 to tell the prequels.

2-1B
05-25-2002, 02:51 AM
Tough question for me . . . I watched TPM numerous times in the week leading up to AOTC's release, and I had alot of fun doing so. But in some ways I kinda feel I like TPM less now. I liked Clones so much that instead of watching all of Menace right now I'd much rather zip along to Clones. But still, there are moments of TPM that I like to consider in light of certain scenes from AOTC.

Curious . . . I'll say it's a mixed bag for me, maybe it will clear up one way or the other when I have the Clones DVD in hand.

Lman316
05-25-2002, 10:03 AM
In my honest opinion, I think that Episode 3 will make Episode 1 much better.
AOTC didn't do much in the way of explaining things of TPM, ie: Why didn't Qui-Gon disappear? and things of that nature, like Lucas said it was going to.
But we'll just have to wait for Episode 3, I guess.

JediTricks
05-25-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by derek
jeditricks,

a while back, on the old forums, i got you to do a re-write of the episode 1 you would of liked to have seen made, and i thought you did a pretty good job. a few pages back on this forum, i have a thread with a list of things i thought could of made episode 2 a better film. if you get a chance, i'd like to see what you would add to make episode 2 better, or better yet, re-write.:) Ok, but I'll need to see the film a few more times first, I've only seen it once so far. I've always thought very highly of that challenge you proposed on the old forums. :cool:


Stilla, sure thing, and I totally agree with you on the opening crawl being convoluted, I felt like I was last-minute-studying for a test rather than being informed as to the nature of events prior.

jjreason
05-25-2002, 10:50 PM
I don't think Phantom Menace is better than Attack of the Clones. The two are both necessary to completing the story of Darth Vader - both hrs. of Phantom Menace were meaningful in as much as we get to see where and what Ani comes from. Much of Phantom Mencace appeals to me, I still think the Podrace is the best chase in a movie ever. The lightsaber duel at the end is incomparable. Great Music. Great, great, great opening sequence - I absolutely freaked when Qui-Gon jammed his lightsaber into the door up to the hilt. It still blows me away when I watch.
Attack of the Clones has the best big army battle since Hoth. It deals with more mature themes and doesn't wrap up in a tidy, happy ending. This appeals to the more mature fans, making AOTC the more appealing show to adult fans.
Both movies are great, imo, together or on their own. Of course, I should mention that Jar Jar never gave me the rash he gave 90% of the Star Wars fans out there.

browndroid
05-25-2002, 10:54 PM
i really didnt like tpm right when it came out, but i think that after you know why they did certain things by watching aotc it makes it slightly better, but i still give it a 6/10

stillakid
05-25-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by jjreason
I don't think Phantom Menace is better than Attack of the Clones. The two are both necessary to completing the story of Darth Vader - both hrs. of Phantom Menace were meaningful in as much as we get to see where and what Ani comes from. Much of Phantom Mencace appeals to me, I still think the Podrace is the best chase in a movie ever. The lightsaber duel at the end is incomparable. Great Music. Great, great, great opening sequence - I absolutely freaked when Qui-Gon jammed his lightsaber into the door up to the hilt. It still blows me away when I watch.
Attack of the Clones has the best big army battle since Hoth. It deals with more mature themes and doesn't wrap up in a tidy, happy ending. This appeals to the more mature fans, making AOTC the more appealing show to adult fans.
Both movies are great, imo, together or on their own. Of course, I should mention that Jar Jar never gave me the rash he gave 90% of the Star Wars fans out there.


Funny, you mentioned the Opening sequence then the Podrace and then the Final Duel. All quite exciting on their own for sure! But there's a whole bunch of other stuff in between those scenes that tend to be the problem.

AOTC...Mature themes? I distinctly recall several SSG'ers telling us whiners that AOTC was a KIDS movie. It apparently wasn't made for adults to appreciate. Anyone care to comment on that? Somebody, please correct jjreason the way some of the rest of us have been chastised.

No tidy ending...Mature Fans? So, anyone that enjoys a movie that ends happily is immature? ANH had a fairly happy ending. There sure are a boatload of immature saps out there. AOTC (just like ESB before it) is allowed to have an open ended finish as it is Act II in a Three Act play. Just how great would this "mature" ending be if there was going to be no follow up? I'll tell ya, it'd be a major drag. All those loose ends and nowhere to go for answers. Propping up AOTC, or ESB for that matter, because it doesn't have a "happy Hollywood ending" is an injustice to the other films that have the responsibility to "wrap it up."

stillakid
05-26-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

AOTC...Mature themes? I distinctly recall several SSG'ers telling us whiners that AOTC was a KIDS movie. It apparently wasn't made for adults to appreciate. Anyone care to comment on that? Somebody, please correct jjreason the way some of the rest of us have been chastised.



Hmm. Silence. That's what I thought. :rolleyes: