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Lman316
05-28-2002, 10:03 AM
Okay, I know this was discussed someplace and I've looked all over, but I just can't find the thread I'm looking for. But anyway, there was a brief discussion about whether or not Luke and Leia should be seen during Episode 3. Someone argued that it would take away from the OT because new viewers of Star Wars would watch it 1 - 6. And those new viewers would know who Luke and Leia are and it would take away from ESB and Vader's line.
Well, I just thought about something. If they're not going to put the twins in Episode 3, then you have to do something with Anakin/Vader. Because in ANH, Obi-Wan said that Vader killed Luke's father. Well, we all know that means, but new viewers to ANH wouldn't, unless they watched the Prequels. What I'm getting at is if showing the twins in Episode 3 would ruin things for new people in the OT, so would showing Anakin becoming Darth Vader (which I'm pretty sure he'd have to by Episode 3 - I only think anyway, in no way confirming this, so I'm not trying to spoil anything :D). So in order not to ruin anything there would have to be another Vader in Episode 3 who fights with Anakin and he seems to kill Ani. Then everyone would still be surprised in ESB when Vader tells Luke that he is his father.
I really don't think that could work, so there is really no way to prevent "ruining" the ESB line for new viewers. They'd just have to watch it from the OT to the Prequels.

End (finally) :).

darthvyn
05-28-2002, 10:11 AM
i think the thread you were talking about is the "complete story to speculate from" in this forum... i brought up the idea that maybe palpatine cloned anakin, calling him vader, and so on...

Lman316
05-28-2002, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
i think the thread you were talking about is the "complete story to speculate from" in this forum... i brought up the idea that maybe palpatine cloned anakin, calling him vader, and so on...

I don't think that it was. I got down the first paragraph of Tycho's post and I figured I shouldn't read it. I know that this is a Non-Spoilers thread, but Tycho seems to know stuff before the movie comes out, so I didn't want to take a chance :D.
I'll keep looking for it, and if I find it, I'll have a mod move this.
But thanks :).

End.

Edited in: I found the other thread and I already put my response in there. But, I don't know if this shouldn't be left here as it is more an Episode 3 topic and my reply to the other one was a little off topic anyway (it was about a third trilogy being made). If a mod still wants to delete this, that's okay, but I don't think it would hurt anything :D.

Jedi Clint
05-28-2002, 11:43 AM
Ben's explanation to Luke can be taken by the intended audience as a) true from a certain point of view when they discover the truth later on, and b) a necessary (when the truth is revealed) but confusing explanation at the time from the audience p.o.v. because Luke wasn't ready to hear the truth about his destiny and Ben wasn't going to lay everything on him all at once.

Chaddymac
05-30-2002, 03:34 PM
I'm all for preserving the secrets of the original trilogy, like not showing Luke and Leia at the end of episode III. As far as hiding Vader's identity, did anyone notice how tall Dooku is? I mean, Christopher Lee is a big guy...kinda like Vader. If Dooku and Anakin fought and it appeared as if Anakin had been killed, then Dooku and someone else fought (maybe Yoda...who knows) and then Dooku appeared to die, then Later I see Palpatine fitting a fallen comrade in that black suit, that comrade speaking with James Earl Jones' voice. Maybe I'd assume it was Dooku, renamed for his new body.

But, I just hope Lucas intends to preserve the secrets of the original trilogy. And since we all know that when he was given the go to make Empire he had already decided to someday make the prequels, I hope he's already got that whole thing worked out.

And, back to Luke and Leia being in ep III, I've started to think maybe Vader doesn't know he even has a son. Maybe he thinks they're dead...maybe he thinks Padme's dead. I mean, Empire begins with Vader "Obsessed with finding young Skywalker..." Well, why wasn't he obsessed before? Maybe he didn't know Luke was alive until the destruction of the Death Star: He senses the force as he attacks Lukes X-Wing, then later hears the news spreading across the Rebellion that a Luke Skywalker destroyed the Empire's greatest weapon. Then he becomes obsessed with finding Luke.

Lman316
05-30-2002, 04:44 PM
I really don't think that Lucas is going to try to keep identities secret. I mean, he's already revealed Yoda to everyone, so it will be no surprise for people when they watch ESB for the first time (if they're watching it 1 - 6). Everyone will already know who Yoda is, so I doubt he'll try to keep everything else under wraps.
People will just have to watch the OT first and then go and watch the Prequels.

End :).

Jedi Clint
05-30-2002, 07:07 PM
What's this "try to keep" crud?! The only way to confirm the man behind the mask is for someone to say:

"Hey you used to be Anakin Skywalker."
For Vader to say, "I used to be Anakin Skywalker."
Or for Lucas to show an unnecessary "fit Anakin with the Vader suit" sequence.

Other than that his secret is safe. They can hint about it all they want, but blatantly confirming it is ridiculous.

Chaddymac
05-30-2002, 07:07 PM
I think that when ESB comes around, it's been a long time since Yoda was up and about, he's old, and he's been a hermit in hiding. I just recently watched ESB and my thought was, "If I didn't know he was about to reveal himself as the Jedi Master Yoda, I'd think he was off his nut." So, it's still kind of a surprise when he suddenly goes from having a split personality disorder to being the wise and tempered frog we all know and love.

I stand by my assertion that the most appropriate way to tell this story is to somehow maintain the tension and drama of the best scene in the sextulogy--the Bespin lightsaber battle between Luke and Vader.

Maybe Lucas won't maintain that secret, but I truly, deeply believe he should.

darthvyn
05-30-2002, 11:40 PM
i personally would like to see how a sith is initiated, and why they take a darth name... i've said before, i think that ep III should start out with anakin becoming a jedi knight (because he is referred to as one in OT) and end with his initiation into the sith. i still maintain that to skirt the divulging of secrets will result in poor plot development. i think the best way to keep the secrets of the OT intact, is to watch the movies in production order, and that's a choice to make for yourself and yourself alone. i for one would like to see anakin's darkest moment, as he gives in to his temptation and falls to the dark side.

Jedi Clint
05-30-2002, 11:55 PM
How would it be poor plot developement if they refrain from verbally declaring that Anakin is Vader, or showing him fitted with the suit? Anything less than those on screen events leaves the confirmation of his identity in TESB and ROTJ where it has been been for the past couple of decades.

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 03:58 PM
i just don't want them to skip over anakin's darkest moment.

Tycho
06-02-2002, 04:16 PM
For the record, my thread does not contain any spoilers, only a lot of logical, practical reasoning. In this forum, I will be careful not to amend my theories or perhaps not even post if I get spoilers.

Furthermore, if watching this movie as one 12 hour movie, we don't even know who Luke Skywalker is until he's on the Death Star - away from that Ben Kenobi scene in the hut.

When does he say his last name in the movie? With Leia - "I'm Luke Skywalker. I'm here to rescue you!"

As to why he lives on Tatooine with the name Luke SKYWALKER? Perhaps he doesn't. Maybe Biggs, Cammie, Fixer et. all thought his name was Luke Lars. Where does it say that they didn't?

So, Ben tells Luke Lars that his father was a Jedi. That this Jedi was killed by a pupil of Ben's named Darth Vader. This is true from a certain point of view. Luke might have always known his real last name, or might have learned it from Ben on the way towards Alderaan. Leia is not called Leia Skywalker. But that is her true maiden name.

So the scene in Ben's hut doesn't wreck anything. In the Death Star scenes, one might start to wonder - ok - so this kid is somehow related to Anakin - he IS the baby that Obi-Wan (who we thought was "Ben") rescued for Amidala those 18 years ago.
But Luke and Han are a little busy with a whole battallion of Stormtroopers coming into the detention block to worry about all that then. Just when you have time to think about Luke again - the dianoga is trying to eat him! LOL

So it works.

Lman316
06-05-2002, 02:57 PM
I just had another thought about this whole "revealing" thing.
It's not really going to matter if we see Anakin put in the armor - it's just not. It's not going to give the surprise away, and this is why:

"...Darth Vader. Who was a pupil of mine, before he turned to evil..."

"When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the Master..."

I'm not spoiling anything here, but we know that Obi-Wan never trains a Darth Vader during the prequels. We see what most of his life is like and who he is training: Anakin Skywalker. So, new viewers to the saga (if they don't really know who Darth Vader is by ANH), are going to be wondering why Ben is lying. It's just not going to work, IMO.
And the second line would pretty much give away Vader's identity. The only real way for someone new to the movies, to not be spoiled is if they watch the OT first and then the prequels for the backstory. I really don't see any other way.

End :).

darthvyn
06-05-2002, 03:48 PM
i agree... it will be just too hard to side step all the pitfalls of maintaining all the secrets, unless they go back in and chop all the revelation lines out of ANH, and i hope they don't do that... that would suck.

Tycho
06-05-2002, 03:58 PM
OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 06:15 PM
Exactly Tycho. That little talk Ben has with Luke doesn't CONFIRM anything. In fact it creates more questions than it answers. Ben told Luke what he needed to hear at the time. He wanted the youth to follow him on an adventure. He sure as heck wasn't going to drop the bomb on him. For future generations, nothing is spoiled by Ben and Luke's discussion. It would be if some ridiculous and unneccesssary sequence showing Anakin fitted with Vader's uniform was included in E3.

Chaddymac
06-05-2002, 10:46 PM
Actually, I have to throw a wrench in this whole discussion. The truth it that the cat's out of the bag anyway. Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader was his apprentice. Well, unless Obi-Wan has another apprentice that falls to the darkside, Anakin is the only candidate that fits that description. Hell, Anakin's the only padawan Obi-Wan ever has.

So, we're stuck with the truth. For better or worse, the audience will forever know that Vader is Anakin Skywalker.

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 10:55 PM
Except he also tells Luke that this guy named Vader KILLED Anakin Skywalker. That "cat" isn't "out of the bag" in that scene. Anyone viewing them in order their first time is probably going to think that Ben is lying to cover his behind, because he "killed" Anakin Skywalker....and now he is blaming it on the bad guy. In ROTJ they will understand why Ben told Luke what he did when he explains his "certain point of view" to him.

Chaddymac
06-06-2002, 12:23 AM
Then who are we to believe Vader is? What motivation would Obi-Wan have to tell Luke that Vader was his apprentice if he wasn't? And why then would Vader say to Obi-Wan, "When last we met I was but a student. Now I am the Master."

Obi-Wan only had one apprentice and that apprentice was Anakin Skywalker. Even if we don't have it confirmed in Episode III that Anakin is Darth Vader, there's no escaping it in ANH.

Jedi Clint
06-06-2002, 12:55 AM
Then who are we to believe Vader is?

We wouldn't know for sure.


What motivation would Obi-Wan have to tell Luke that Vader was his apprentice if he wasn't?

(If it plays out this way) Anakin died at the hands of Obi Wan, and now there is a droid in his hut with a message that requests he leaves Tatooine to go on a dangerous mission against the Empire, for the Rebellion, and he won't be able to watch over Luke any more. He has to convince Luke to come with him. He does this by:

Preying on Luke's rebellious nature in regards to Owen.
Inspiring the boy to walk in his heroic father's footsteps by following him to Alderaan.

Luke needs to trust Obi Wan, and for Kenobi to tell him the truth about what happened to his father in full detail might destory that. Try this on for size. "Luke I know you've lived here all your life and you thought your father was a navigator on a spice freighter, but your Step Aunt and Uncle have lied to you all these years. I fought your father, almost killed him, and he is now a mechanical monster who works for the Emperor. We believe it is your destiny to face and destroy your father and the Emperor and restore the galactic order of the Old Republic by learning the ways of the Jedi. Now I've got stuff to do so let's go!

Don't you think he would be a little hesitant? Overwhelmed? Distracted? Confused? He wouldn't readily trust and admire Obi Wan and his "heroic" father would he?


And why then would Vader say to Obi-Wan, "When last we met I was but a student. Now I am the Master."

Obi-Wan only had one apprentice and that apprentice was Anakin Skywalker. Even if we don't have it confirmed in Episode III that Anakin is Darth Vader, there's no escaping it in ANH.

No escaping the hints! That is what I have proffessed. CONFIRMATION is what I've been screaming with my fingertips. :)

Chaddymac
06-06-2002, 01:23 AM
Hints? You mean like the "Hints" that Palpatine and Darth Sidious are the same person? By the end of the Phantom Menace, even my mother who had no idea that the Emperor's name was Palpatine realized what that last shot at the funeral pyre meant.

The problem is that these "Hints" have still injured the power of ESB. When Luke was sitting on that ledge, gripping that gerder, with the face of death from all over the galaxy looming over him, we were right there with him: beaten, tired, frustrated. It was the end. Why doesn't Vader just finish him off? Then, the revelation. We're with Luke; we're just as shocked and devestated as he is. This was perhaps the biggest secret in the history of cinema up to that point. Way better than "'Redbud' is the name of his Kane's childhood sled." It was Earth shattering. Now, it's not.

Now it's still emotionally powerful, but from a different perspective. We knew the truth all along and it's Vader we're with. It's with him as he reveals the truth to Luke. But as dense as that emotion is, it's impotent next to the way the original trilogy laid it down. And now it feels kind of...dilute.

Tycho
06-06-2002, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by Chaddymac
Actually, I have to throw a wrench in this whole discussion. The truth it that the cat's out of the bag anyway. Obi-Wan tells Luke that Vader was his apprentice. Well, unless Obi-Wan has another apprentice that falls to the darkside, Anakin is the only candidate that fits that description. Hell, Anakin's the only padawan Obi-Wan ever has.

So, we're stuck with the truth. For better or worse, the audience will forever know that Vader is Anakin Skywalker.

No we're not. 4 years have passed since Anakin was Obi-Wan's apprentice. He quit as soon as it was revealed he got married and was told he must forsake his bride. He already said he can't control his emotions. He won't because the Council told him to. So he's left.

Meanwhile the wars are going bad for the Jedi. When younglings turn 13 they are apprenticed to a Master. Perhaps Obi-Wan WILL take another apprentice on because they'll need someone to teach him and the Jedi WILL need to up their numbers. So we'll see that apprentice disappear or die (at age 17) in Episode 3. A bit part, like Zam Wessel.

Don't like it? Think Anakin is supposed to be with Obi-Wan? Then it plays perfectly on your emotions of anger towards this other padawan that has taken Anakin's place. Well how do you think Anakin feels about someone coming between him and Obi-Wan, EVEN if he did leave him 4 years ago? When the apprentice is missing in action, Obi-Wan then calls Anakin for help.

"Anakin Skywalker, years ago you served the Jedi as my apprentice. Now I ask of you to come back to help us in our struggle against Count Dooku. I have located his secret base of operations but I cannot take him alone. Come back with me and face your destiny. You will bring Balance to the Force. Help me Anakin Skywalker, you're my only hope."

Has a 17 year old ever killed a 23 year old? Pick up your local newspaper and read how many times that happened in Los Angeles yesterday.

So the audience can wonder if it's possible. And this gets Anakin back into the action of the movie only about 10 minutes after the opening title scrolls up.

That works for me. Now I'm beginning to think that Obi-Wan WILL have a new padawan for about 4 years, and just under ten minutes of this new movie.

Chaddymac
06-06-2002, 10:34 AM
Well, I'm not convinced that Anakin has left the Jedi order. I think he's keeping his marraige to Padme a secret. I think part of the conflict of Episode III is that the secret gets out. I'd be hard pressed to beleive that some upstart 17 year old who just showed up would be able to kill the child of prophecy, "The Son of the Suns." I could buy Dooku killing him because Dooku has the advantage of more training and Dark Side powers; Yoda has a more complete knowledge of the force, so he could do it to. But some 17 year old chump I know nothing about who just happens to join the Dark Side just before Anakin does?

Tradtional wisdom would identify that as bad story-telling.

However, you have made a very good point in that if the council knew about Anakin marrying, he would be expelled and Obi-Wan would take on another apprentice. And if Obi-Wan took on another apprentice, it would create a very interesting dynamic between Anakin and Obi-Wan, dividing the "father" and "son."

But I couldn't buy this new apprentice falling to the darkside and fooling me into believing he could be Vader. I could have been fooled that Dooku was Vader, but not now that I remember Obi-Wan calls Vader his apprentice.

Tycho
06-06-2002, 01:54 PM
The new apprentice doesn't fall to the Dark Side.

The new apprentice dies, literally. But we are not shown that.

Since the new apprentice has been trained as a Jedi all their life, then spent 4 years with Obi-Wan, he was pretty good. He's 17 and Anakin's 23. Not that big of age difference either. Easy to get jealous of....

Meanwhile, if the NEW audience

1) doesn't know what happened and why the new apprentice is missing in action, then he could a) have been killed or b) still be alive.

2) sees Anakin fall out of Obi-Wan's reach after being wounded in their duel and Obi-Wan is not able to save him, but they do not see Anakin take his last breath and die; therefore:

a) if there had been a still-living new apprentice, it would have been easy for him to kill Anakin out of jealousy (off screen of course)

or

b) they'll have no final confirmation Anakin is dead. It just looks probable, though in ESB we find out he is not.

BUT we wonder why Obi-Wan said it was a pupil of his, not himself, that inflicted the wounds on Anakin. As Jedi Clint said, after seeing ANH, we might dismiss it as it just being Obi-Wan not being entirely honest with Luke so he'll admire his father and trust Obi-Wan to begin his training. For the greater good, that needs to begin.

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 02:03 PM
too much relying on the thought process of the audience. "maybe in that time he had another pupil that we never see?"

a lot of "if's" even though i didn't use the word "if" once...

Tycho
06-06-2002, 02:19 PM
That's true. We should treat most people as if they can't "think."

Shouldn't we? :(

Lman316
06-06-2002, 02:20 PM
First thing, Tycho, (not to be or seem mean), but you're really pushing it with Spoiler-type posts. I mean, all this stuff you're saying about Anakin Skywalker (I didn't read a lot of it because I don't want to spoil anything - just in case) could really be seen as a Spoiler. I would ask that in a NO SPOILERS section, that there should be no spoilers. And besides, there is really no way that you could know that. As far as I know, Lucas hasn't even written (or finished) the script for Episode 3, so stuff like that shouldn't be posted anyway. But if you do somehow know (which you always seem to anyway :D) then maybe you shouldn't put that stuff in here - that's all I'm saying. Or at least say that that's what you think, not what you know.
But as long as I read a little bit (and I'm only debating this as conjecture - I don't really know if Tycho is right about it or not, and I'm not debating that. I'm only going so far to offer my opinion on the matter). Tycho, you say that Anakin will be expelled from the Order for marriage to Padme. You don't know that.

"We could keep it a secret..."

And even though Padme wasn't too keen on that idea before, she has since changed her mind. And if the Jedi can't detect Sith presence, I doubt they'll be able to find out that Anakin got married. Thus, he wouldn't have been expelled for that. I think that Anakin will be expelled when he falls to the Dark Side...obviously, lol :crazed:.

And as far as Obi-Wan having another apprentice, I have thought of that too. But, it couldn't be Darth Vader. The audience already knows that Darth is a Sith title. So, by contradiction, a Sith cannot be a Jedi. If somehow Obi was to take on an apprentice named Vader (just Vader, no Darth), then I could see that working. But I guess we'll all have to wait to see what Lucas can do with Episode 3.

End :).

princethomas
06-06-2002, 02:21 PM
I like your theories, but I think it is silly to believe that Anakin will be kicked out of the Jedi Order. It doesnt make sense. Do you really think that Yoda, Windu and Kenobi will just sit around and say. Well he broke a rule. Lets get rid of him. And then wash their hands of him, like the just kicked a girl out of the sorority for posing in PlayBoy. Heck no! This kid is the "one" who will bring balance to the force. He is potentially the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. Does it really make any sense to think that they just cut him lose? NO!
And if they did. Whats he been doing for the last 4 years while they are swamped in thes clone wars. Pod Racing? Chilling out on Naboo riding the Shaq-attack? While his bride is busy in the Senate?
No No Mr. Josey Wales. I believe that we will find when Episode 3 starts that Anakin is very much in the middle of the Jedi Action.
There is one line in all this dialogue that no one has addressed. "He was the best Star Pilot in the Galaxy" when does this happen. Its happening right now. During the 4 years between movies. He and "General Kenobi" are out kicking droid butt.
What will cause the split I dont know. But the Jedi will go one way and the Clone Army and Republic will go the other. And anakin will get caught on the wrong side.

Now how does all this effect the protecting of identities? it doesn't. I think it is a dream to think that anyone's identity will be protected. Now I like that we wont be positive who this Luke is until we he blurts out his name to Leia. We may not know who Leia is. But we will always and I mean Always know that Darth Vader is Lukes Father. And if we have seen 1-3 first. Then we will immediately know that Anakin is Darth Vader. And all of this will be amazingly clear even if you have never seen 4-6, as soon as he says Im Luke Skywalker I m here to.....blah blah. Because. Everyone on the planet knows the Line. Luke! I am your Father. (which isnt even correct) but they know it. They all know it. everyone knows it and everyone will always know it. Do you see what I mean.

The fact is the movies came out 456123 and thats they way that it is. ANH will always feel funny if watched in the middle. Theres no way to change that.

Im in favor of protecting OT surprises as much as possible. but they arent going to bend over backwards to do it. It wont work. Episode 3 is the grand and final ending to a 6 part saga and it should end in grand way. Anakin becoming vader and the empire triumphantly taking over and then a young child born as the only semblence of happiness to all of this chaos.
"

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
That's true. We should treat most people as if they can't "think."

Shouldn't we? :(

sad, but true...

Tycho
06-06-2002, 03:25 PM
LMan316 - what does your username mean anyway? (Mine's Tycho for Tycho Celchu, Rogue Squadron)

First, this is all speculative. I don't "Know" anything about the storyline, but when you feel strongly in your heart that you "just know this is how it's going to be," well, you get the picture.

But you are correct, the script has not been finished yet, I don't know if sets are even in production, or even if Rick McCallum knows the complete story outline, or Jonathon Hales is going to work on cleaning Lucas' "Shakespeare" up a bit.

Once people start working on the film, spoilers leak. So there's no opportunity for that yet.

My story is as logically reasoned out as best as I can. I think this is the best way they can tell this tale as I have written it (from my guess as to how it is to be). This is not to say that I am such a genius or have such superior taste. That version would have Anakin trapped on a planet with Jennifer Love Hewitt, Denise Richards, Sarah Michelle Geller, Katie Holmes, Kristin Kruek etc. and they're all tempting him away from Padme. Then he needs some protection, so he puts on the helmet. :D

However, the story I wrote in this thread here is not what I fantasize would happen, but what I think is most logically going to occur.

However many times I have to explain this I will: the fun in speculating lies in solving this like a puzzle, and now we have 5/6 of all the clues. You can do that, go read the books, or go watch "Clones" 2 dozen more times in the theater. BUT, you've decided to go on a SW message board and have a discussion about guess what? Star Wars! So...what SHOULD we talk about?

Hmmm. This section says Episode 3 (No Spoilers).

Episode Three sounds interesting. There's no chance of spoilers because the script doesn't exist yet and no one knows anything save for George. So this sounds pretty safe.

Now here's this fool Tycho. He's gone and posted the plot to the entire movie. But he's not a Lucas insider. He doesn't know anything, and for that matter, at this time, neither do the Lucas insiders.

OK, well for lack of anything better to do, let's read what Tycho says.

Uh-oh. He cites 5 movies I've already seen. And the fact that Anakin must become Darth Vader! And the fact that there's this effort to combine all the films to make one cohesive 12 hour story out of two trilogies!

That means certain things have to happen so they will be as they were told to be in Episodes 4,5,&6.

When you have to go to Toys R Us, you know you'll end up there, but you can take the highway or the urban streets. You end up in the same place but there's a few routes to get there. You gauge your time using each route to determine the best way.

That's an awful lot like what Tycho is doing here with speculating on Episode 3.

Maybe he posted it because he got it so close to sounding flawless in his mind, after he's thought long and hard about it, that he wants a record of it just so that he can see if he was right. We'll all know on May 25, 2005. And it's best this was written now, because by January 2005 or sooner, the whole storyline as it really will appear is going to be known. If you want to speculate, totally unaided except by anything save your own thought-process, then now's the time to do it!

That being said, let's hit the specifics...

Anakin might choose to QUIT the Jedi Order so that he can openly be with Padme. He doesn't have to be kicked out. Either way, I don't think he will be a Jedi in Episode 3. There's better plot possibilities if he's not.

For the last 4 years Anakin's wife has been distraught that she worked for a whole single year of her life, this past one before AOTC, to defeat the Military Creation Act, only to have JarJar entirely reverse her planet's position the very first week she was gone. While it's true she lived because the Clones rescued her from Geonosis, if the Clone Wars that started once the first shots were fired have now consumed the entire galaxy in civil war, surely her home planet as well, she would not be so pleased at the price the galaxy has paid for her life, and that of Anakin's and Obi-Wan's. So Padme Skywalker will decide to stay in the Senate, pregnant or not, and work towards peace in the galaxy. Anakin made a commitment to her and will stay by her side.

Palpatine will give Anakin a job protecting him from his enemies since he did so well for his homeplanet's senator. Anakin will use his Force abilities to serve the Chancellor's negotiations and not be hampered by Jedi ethics. Palpatine will therefore have a strong influence over him. This establishes WHY. And it answers what Anakin's been doing for the past 4 years -getting frustrated with the bureaucracy.

As far as Obi-Wan having another apprentice, he could be named anything, and then changed his name to Darth Vader, just like we know Anakin eventually will. But while they are leading you to think it's someone else before you see Episode 5, it leaves the option plausible.

Darth Sidious' name is Cos Palpatine.
Darth Tyranus' name is Count Dooku
Darth Vader's name is Anakin Skywalker.
Darth Maul was born with a different name.

This whole thing keeps going because a lot of you are going to be so disappointed when you DONT see a battle-ravished Anakin don the Vader armor. What if you don't? Will you be disappointed in the movie? Is that one of the landmark things you've been waiting to see revealed in Episode 3? Speculate something else for a moment: what would happen if we don't get to see that? If instead it is made to look like Anakin has died?

And finally, as to getting Anakin into the action and addressing him being the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy....

If the movie opens with a great battle (of the Clone Wars) and Obi-Wan's new padawan is lost and he calls Anakin for help - well, think of the opening sequence to A New Hope - it doesn't take long for the action to get going and get a request out to Anakin to come and help him. And then whoossh! Anakin's into the action again. To get to Obi-Wan / face Dooku, he'll have to run the blockade between Separatist and Republic fleet ships and their fighters, thus proving what a hot Starfighter pilot he is. As to those 4 years of his past with Obi-Wan doing just that being lost? Well, that's offscreen EU stuff right? And Anakin trained with Obi-Wan for 10 years between TPM and AOTC. He's had plenty of time as an adult (or nearly an adult age 16 -19) to have adventures with Obi-Wan and pilot some starfighters. Check the comics and books that Anakin and Obi-Wan will be in that are realeased now and until 2005. I bet you they will all be set BEFORE Attack of the Clones. If they are not, that could be the first indication that I am wrong.

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
This whole thing keeps going because a lot of you are going to be so disappointed when you DONT see a battle-ravished Anakin don the Vader armor. What if you don't? Will you be disappointed in the movie? Is that one of the landmark things you've been waiting to see revealed in Episode 3? Speculate something else for a moment: what would happen if we don't get to see that? If instead it is made to look like Anakin has died?

the only thing that will disappoint me is if the story suffers by tip-toeing around the secrets. keeping the secrets is fine, but if the story gets too convoluted, or just leaves too many questions unanswered (it is the last one, after all...) i will be disappointed. much of my aprehension has to do with the balance prophecy, and my disbelief that the prophecy takes effect in JEDI. my (unpopluar) theory is that anakin brings balance to the force by killing all the jedi but two, leaving an even number of force users on either side of the spectrum. if anakin dies, and vader comes along and kills all the jedi for, like, no reason, there is no definitive "this is the balance." and, if it truly is the end of JEDI, then there is going to have to be some way of tying that in, and clint i really don't buy the "if only anakin could fulfill his destiny by killing palpatine" shtick, sorry, i just don't. i just don't see the balance at the end of JEDI. good has won, and conquered evil, good has triumphed, not balanced everything out. if you have a scale, and on one side is a nice warm punkin' pie, and on the other is dog doo, and you get rid of the dog doo because you don't like it, it's "bad" all that's left is the "good" punkin' pie. unless you don't like punkin' pie, then you get rid of everything, and the entire universe ceases to exist...

so, most of my objections are not "i don't care about future generations, ruin the secrets of the original trilogy, i hate the future anyway..." it's that i really don't see any resolution of the balance prophecy taking place in the OT... therefore, we have to see it in ep. III, and might have to forego any side-stepping of the secrets. it's obviously a sticky wicket that lucas has gotten himself into, and he'll tell the story however it takes. i just hope that he doesn't make the story suffer from over-subtlety, and skip over what i think is the most important part of anakin's life, his final downfall...

oh, and tycho, studies have shown that writing about yourself in the third person can cause irreperable harm to the psyche... be careful... lol...

Chaddymac
06-06-2002, 04:22 PM
Tycho, it's not that your theory isn't crafted well, it's just that it doesn't seem to follow from what we've been told. It could happen, and that's what makes reading your theory fun, but there's a lot interjected that doesn't seem like the end-all possibility for how this will be handled.

And it seems really clear to me that Anakin and Padme intend to keep their marraige a secret. No one's left their place; Anakin is still on the road to becomming a Jedi and Padme is still fighting for her planet and for the Republic. It reminds me of WWI and WWII when people would marry just before they went off to war. Well, Anakin's going of to war, so there's no reason he should be spending his time with Padme--he's fighting for the Republic too. But they still steal time away from their duties to see each other, and that's how Padme becomes pregnant.

That's how I see it anyway.

Tycho
06-06-2002, 04:41 PM
Good points Chaddymac. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "this isn't what we were told." We weren't directly told anything that's going to happen in Episode 3 with regards to exactly how it happens of course.

But while you site the storylines "We could keep it a secret."

"Then we'd be living a lie. I couldn't do that. Could you Anakin?"

"No. It would destroy us."


I also think that's why they might tell and not try to hide.

I cite another bit of dialogue.

"Just being around her is intoxicating."

"Be mindful of your thoughts Anakin. Your feelings betray you. You've made a commitment to the Jedi Order. A commitment that's not easily broken."


- So we've already been provided with the idea of breaking the commitment to the Jedi Order over matters of love and sexuality. It could be interpretted that Obi-Wan is just trying to head this issue off and give Anakin his guidence, OR that he read Anakin's thoughts even more clearly, and saw that these feelings, coupled with Anakin's concerns for his mother, were already making Anakin question his commitment to the Jedi Order. In other words, Obi-Wan sensed that Anakin has given serious thought to quitting beforehand.

To not live a lie, he takes this other course of action, and finds a new roll as a strategic advisor to Chancellor Palpatine.

Chaddymac
06-06-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Good points Chaddymac. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "this isn't what we were told." We weren't directly told anything that's going to happen in Episode 3 with regards to exactly how it happens of course.

Poor choice of words. I was only referring to what we've been lead to believe by the films thus far. My mistake.

And I think you make some good points about Obi-Wan sensing Anakin's feelings. I think what I feel is that I agree with you, but I think that this is such a crucial story element that it should appear on screen, not off. And that fact that when asked Obi-Wan told Windu and Yoda that Anakin was merely escorting Amidala to Naboo means that either Obi-Wan was hiding the truth from the Jedi Council (which isn't in Obi-Wan's character to do just yet, especialy not from the Jedi Council), or he didn't know Anakin and Amidala were going to get married. If the second option is true, than it would seem to support the idea that Anakin and Padme intend to keep their love affair a secret.

My thing is that the course Lucas has lead us down seems to say that had Padme and Anakin truly understood their place and had more control over their emotions, Anakin could have resisted hi fall to the darkside. They both recognized the danger of breaking the Jedi code, but Anakin suggested they keep it a secret. Amidala's response is that this too would be wrong, and they let it be. But at the end, she makes the decision that she loves him too much to follow the rules.

Remember their conversation? In her home on Naboo, in the room with the fireplace she tells Anakin that a lie woud destroy them. But before they go out to the Arena, Anakin says, "I thought we had decided not to fall in love. That we would be forced to live a lie, and that it would destroy our lives." Her response is that their lives are already destroyed. They commit to the lie.

And when I think about the moral of the story, it would be "right" if Anakin left the Jedi order to be with the woman he loves, if he made a choice. But Anakin doesn't want to give up becomming a Jedi and he doesn't want t give up Padme. If he'd chosen one, he'd have chosen the light side of the force either way. But his fear of losing his ambition and his love caused him to pursue a lie, which will lead him down the dark side of the force.

I just can't see where we're being lead to believe that Anakin will have left the Jedi Order or be expelled when Episode III begins. I think it will be this lie that drives the personal conflict in the next film.

Jedi Clint
06-06-2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by princethomas
Everyone on the planet knows the Line. Luke! I am your Father. (which isnt even correct) but they know it. They all know it. everyone knows it and everyone will always know it. Do you see what I mean.

The fact is the movies came out 456123 and thats they way that it is. ANH will always feel funny if watched in the middle. Theres no way to change that.

Im in favor of protecting OT surprises as much as possible. but they arent going to bend over backwards to do it. It wont work. Episode 3 is the grand and final ending to a 6 part saga and it should end in grand way. Anakin becoming vader and the empire triumphantly taking over and then a young child born as the only semblence of happiness to all of this chaos.
"

No one has to "bend over backwards". Your argument that "everyone" knows that Vader is Luke's father is without merit. My friends son didn't know before he saw Empire and Jedi recently after seeing TPM, and kids born 5 years from now won't know unless someone tells them. While that is indeed a possibility, I think he'll make them for the kids who haven't been spoiled.


Originally posted by darthvyn

much of my aprehension has to do with the balance prophecy, and my disbelief that the prophecy takes effect in JEDI. my (unpopluar) theory is that anakin brings balance to the force by killing all the jedi but two, leaving an even number of force users on either side of the spectrum. if anakin dies, and vader comes along and kills all the jedi for, like, no reason, there is no definitive "this is the balance." and, if it truly is the end of JEDI, then there is going to have to be some way of tying that in, and clint i really don't buy the "if only anakin could fulfill his destiny by killing palpatine" shtick, sorry, i just don't. i just don't see the balance at the end of JEDI. good has won, and conquered evil, good has triumphed, not balanced everything out. if you have a scale, and on one side is a nice warm punkin' pie, and on the other is dog doo, and you get rid of the dog doo because you don't like it, it's "bad" all that's left is the "good" punkin' pie. unless you don't like punkin' pie, then you get rid of everything, and the entire universe ceases to exist...


Balance is a utopian principle. There is no balance in Palpatine's Republic/Empire.....it is a very negative place. I think you better prep yourself for some dissappointment.

darthvyn
06-06-2002, 10:57 PM
i'm not talking about balance in the republic/empire, i'm talking about balance in the force. two very different things... i think what we're seeing is a little essay on the separation of church and state. under the jedi's protection, the government becomes stagnant and corrupt, while under the sith's rule, it becomes tyrannical and despotic. i think the solution is for neither side of the force to have anything to do with the government.

Tycho
06-07-2002, 02:12 AM
Chaddymac: your words were carefully thought out in your last post and I really am thinking hard about what you wrote.

That was a darn good piece of reasoning!

I will have to get back to you on some of it.

In terms of what Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace, he is telling them Anakin has some troubling feelings and emotional fixations, but he is not 'betraying Anakin's secret diary' to them. Part of the Master-Apprentice relationship must be trust, and I think that when Anakin decides to communicate something like this to Obi-Wan, it is understood that it is confidential.

But about him being so ambitious that he desires both, I could see that. I still think the plot and foundation for the OT work too well with him having left the Jedi Order, but the internal conflict you spoke of should definitely be brought up in dialogue - and will be. As Anakin still went to help Obi-Wan (in my story) but as soon as their brawl with Dooku is over, he is torn in another direction. There he goes again: racing half-way around the galaxy to rescue someone else - exactly as his character was established in Episode 2. Save Padme. Save his mom. Save Obi-Wan.

It makes sense that this is his motivation that propels him through the first part of the next story. Don't you agree?

No that doesn't prove or disprove that he'd left the Jedi Order, I just brought it up because the thought was related to all this.

Chaddymac
06-07-2002, 10:38 AM
Tycho, that's a very astute observation. Lucas keeps pushing this idea that fear is the path to the dark side because it's an off-shoot of greed and selfishness. The only thing we are really afraid of is losing things: our parents, our girlfriend, our stash of weed...whatever. And Anakin has totally portrayed this aspect of fear in his character. He'll break any rule, betray any moral to keep the things he loves. He would even have abandoned Padme on Naboo, against the Jedi Council, if she hadn't agreed to come with him to Tatooine.

I wonder if his response would have been the same if she hadn't shot him down in the scene prior. Perhaps he would have forced her to come with him had she told him she loved him. Perhaps he'd have been just as connected to her then as he was later when she fell out of the gunship. But she did shoot him down and he was prepared to drop her *** to save his mother.

And Obi-Wan kept ****ing him off, so maybe that's why he decided that this time he'd follow orders, when the council instructed him to stay with Padme and they'd rescue Obi-Wan. "But if Padme wants to go save him, I guess I'll go too."

I DO see this becoming a driving force in the next episode. Anakin will continue to defy wisdom--moral, order, protocol--in order to keep what he has or get what he wants.

Very intense, Tycho. That was a pleasure to read.

Jedi Clint
06-08-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
i'm not talking about balance in the republic/empire, i'm talking about balance in the force. two very different things... i think what we're seeing is a little essay on the separation of church and state. under the jedi's protection, the government becomes stagnant and corrupt, while under the sith's rule, it becomes tyrannical and despotic. i think the solution is for neither side of the force to have anything to do with the government.

The force is part of everything. That includes the Republic/Empire. The Jedi kept the peace for a millenia before the Sith started their rise to power.

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 09:52 AM
i see it the other way around. everything is a part of the force. sure, the jedi kept a semblance of peace for a millenia. they thought there was peace. they also thought the sith were extinct. they were mistaken. maybe they are also mistaken about being the police of the republic, and blinded to the corruption that grew under them.

the force just is. people use it, for good or bad. sure obi-wan admitted that it partly controls your actions but emphasized that it obeys your commands. the way i see the force is that it's all the matter/energy in the universe. when the energy is transmuted into matter (matter and energy can not be created nor destroyed, just changed,) say, a person, they can have a communication with the energy. the force seems more passive in comparison to the organism that uses it. this is also how i explain how jedi disappear. they immediately transmute to energy, become the "luminous beings" without the normal decay process that we go through. (we decay, become nutrients that are energy for plants, which are eaten... blah blah blah...) this is just my theory, and i have always been fascinated with a scientific explanation of spirituality, so i guess that's why i like it so much. it's also why i didn't mind the midichlorians. they always sounded like a cross between mitochondria (the energy producer in animal cells) and chloroplasts (energy producer in plant cells.) that gets it back to the energy idea. i really don't know what all that has to do with this topic, but i ended up on a real branch there...

Tycho
06-10-2002, 02:31 PM
Well Darthvyn, you've found an area where I completely agree with you.

I couldn't have explained all that better myself!

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Well Darthvyn, you've found an area where I completely agree with you.

I couldn't have explained all that better myself!

ROCK!!!

DarthBatman
07-07-2002, 10:40 PM
Wow. This is the best thread in any forum that I've ever read. Congrats to Tycho, Chaddymac, Jedi Clint, and darthvyun for coming up with such cool ideas.