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Pendo
05-28-2002, 12:44 PM
David Prowse has revealed that he wants to return as Darth Vader for Episode III! I really hope he does.

Two decades after crossing light sabers with Luke Skywalker in the original movies, the 66-year-old actor has his sights firmly set on being fit enough to bid for the role in the sixth and final "Star Wars" movie.

But first the former weightlifting champion who gained screen immortality overnight in 1977 as the menacing, black-cloaked Vader, must undergo his fifth hip operation and get his hefty frame back in form.

"I would love to reprise the Darth Vader role," he told Reuters in an interview Tuesday. "If I am 100 percent physically able and they offer the part to someone else, I would be very disappointed."


Click here (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Entertainment/reuters20020528_216.html).

PENDO!

Beast
05-28-2002, 01:21 PM
Nah, he's way to old and not in the same shape he was back then. Besides, as much as he bad mouths the movies, keep him as far away as possible from the prequels. :p

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

bobafett07728
05-28-2002, 01:26 PM
BAH!! I don't see it happening. Whomever plays Vader in EP III is going to have to be extremely mobile. Vader isn't going to be able to erase the Jedi by just slothing around. I just don't see Prowse, at 66 with a bad hip, being the "lively" Vader that the audience will likely be anticipating. Nice thought. . .but lets keep it at that.

Tycho
06-02-2002, 05:32 PM
I support David Prowse returning!

I don't think he'll be able to handle the stunts, but neither does Ewan McGreggor handle everything.

Playing Vader is an honor. I think Hayden and Prowse should both get a few scenes at it.

Hayden can do the more stunt-orientated fighting stuff.

As far as height is concerned for either of them, digitally editing that will fix any problems.

As far as Prowse being wobbly on his knees, I remind you that Prowse played Vader when Luke confronted him on Endor. "Come with me." "OBI-WAN ONCE THOUGHT AS YOU DO." - you never needed to see his knees for that scene. He could have done that with a walker or a wheelchair and had his height adjusted. Though in ROTJ we know he didn't, in the interests of being nice to David Prowse for all he brought to us as fans, let him play Vader again for the scenes he can handle if that is what he wants to do.

David Prowse never bad-mouthed Star Wars as far as I can tell. What he was had been angry over several scenes: he wanted to be Anakin when his face was revealed and was never told about the scene, or who would play him. Sebastian Shaw was not 6'7" by the way. We don't even have "proof" that Shaw could walk. Didn't need to be able to. Next Prowse was made because James Earl Jones redid all his lines since the get-go in ANH. He was never told about that. (fortunately for all of us, I'm sure even David admits that Jones has the best voice in show business for that sort of thing. CNN and Verizon Wireless agree.) Finally, Prowse wanted to play Vader in the prequels and was as surprised as many of us were when Jake Lloyd was announced to play Anakin in Episode One. While David was mad that he didn't even get an audition for the role, I'm sure he changed his mind when he realized that no one would believe he was a 9 year old!

All this has nothing to do with any ill-feelings for Star Wars or Prowse being proud to be a part of it.

We all wanted Kenny back in R2D2 even though R2 was mostly CGI this time (for flying and stairs). But Kenny is a traditional part of Star Wars.

So is David Prowse!

Darth Grifter
06-03-2002, 12:54 AM
Prowse is good, or at least his physical acting was good. Why put a 66 year old man in the suit when Hayden is a good enough fit. Granted, with an agent in one ear probably telling him not to get in the suit and to let a stunt double do it, and the fans of the world in the other ear telling him to get in, Hayden will probably go with the weasily agent...

I think that Prowse being back is a cool thing for the sanctity of the OT, however, I do have to agree that his age and his mobility are probably too limited. I want to see Darth Vader really move in the battle scenes, not somebody else with a poorly CG'd face on the body (i.e. Christopher Lee in the duel with Anakin in AOTC). Give the kid a chance!:D

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 11:35 AM
WHAT ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT, I THOUGHT PROWSE DIED A FEW YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 11:38 AM
My bad, I could have sworn that he was dead. Curse them early morning radio DJs!!!!!!!!!

Tycho
06-03-2002, 12:19 PM
LOL! That was the funniest thing I've read so far this morning!

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 01:00 PM
I thought it was cool to know that it was Prowse that was the old writer's muscular body guard in CLockwork Orange. I found that out today searching for the confirmation that he was still alive. WOW my day just got brighter. All these years I believed he had passed on.

scruffziller
06-03-2002, 01:03 PM
In case you are wondering I wasn't thinking of Guiness being dead in place of Prowse, I was thinking they were both dead, MAN THIS IS A HAPPY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PROWSE IS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!
ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would look forward to him returning as Vader!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2-1B
09-04-2005, 04:16 AM
They didn't even bring him back for the OT special edition reworks, they got some guy named C. Andrew Nelson (http://www.candrewnelson.com/) to fill Vader's boots.

JimJamBonds
09-04-2005, 02:42 PM
I'm glad that Hayder's was da man in black. I think it adds a certain something when the same guy gets into the black suit that was Anakin. Of course its not that big of a deal since the costumed Vader is on screen for only a few seconds but none the less I'm glad he pushed George to wear the suit.

bobafrett
09-04-2005, 09:20 PM
Besides, I don't think Mr. Prowse is getting around quite as well as he used to.

trandoshan666
09-04-2005, 10:36 PM
I think I would like to have seen someone other than Hayden in the suit someone who filled it out better. It's always bothered me a little in that scene when Vader folds his arms when he's standing next to Palpatine, and the suit is obviously too big. I really don't think there would have been a continuity issue, because the scenes that show Vader in the suit are so brief and Vader's limbs were mostly new anyway.

JediTricks
09-04-2005, 11:53 PM
I think I would like to have seen someone other than Hayden in the suit someone who filled it out better. It's always bothered me a little in that scene when Vader folds his arms when he's standing next to Palpatine, and the suit is obviously too big. I really don't think there would have been a continuity issue, because the scenes that show Vader in the suit are so brief and Vader's limbs were mostly new anyway.
And that Hayden is too short in the suit, that bugs me too.

Good point about the new limbs.

JimJamBonds
09-05-2005, 04:32 PM
And that Hayden is too short in the suit, that bugs me too.

I know Hayden used some sort of stilt like extension's to bump up his height but I'm going to guess that it was the same as Prowese including those extension's. I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not quite sure I follow what bugs you JT, the fact he used extenion's or that even with the 'help' he was still too short. :confused:

bobafrett
09-05-2005, 07:57 PM
Considering the natural development of man, I've noticed that most men (and Women) tend to fill out as they get older. I know that I don't fit into my clothes I wore in high school, and I'm not aying that we get "fat", we just tend to not look like the scrawny teens we were in our younger years. So in the 20 some years Anakin/Vader could have naturally filled in his suit a little better.

JediTricks
09-06-2005, 03:55 AM
Even with help, he's still too short, Prowse is 6' 7" and the suit added even more, standing up in the suit Hayden should have been several inches taller than he was even with lifts, and he didn't look it to me (though that could be due to his body simply being smaller and translating to a smaller torso size, or something wonky with the set or camera angle, but he looks shorter to me).


frett, people either gain fat or muscle mass to fill out their shape (well, women have their hips spread after childbirth, but that's really not what we're getting at here), but if they keep the same weight and general muscular build throughout their lives, I don't know of any reason they'd change an overall shape.

seanmcfripp
09-06-2005, 10:31 AM
You guys should head over to:

http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=29692

There's a pretty good discussion going on over there.

seanmcfripp
09-06-2005, 10:38 AM
frett, people either gain fat or muscle mass to fill out their shape (well, women have their hips spread after childbirth, but that's really not what we're getting at here), but if they keep the same weight and general muscular build throughout their lives, I don't know of any reason they'd change an overall shape.

This'll be pretty low-brow, but oh well...

Ani was dopin' man! He wanted to get all big n' buff, so he juiced a little here and there. He even went up three dome sizes! Barry Bonds got nothin' on Vader!

Sorry about that. It had to be done. Anyway, I agree completely that Hayden should NOT have been the actor in the suit. Take a look at the shot of Hayden in the prototype Vader costume from the PT DVD bonus disk...the one where he's all stuffed with "muscle" to fill out the costume better. Absolutely ridiculous. Not to beat a dead horse (done already in other threads), but all they needed was a David Prowse-ish/Bob Anderson-ish built guy and they would have been just fine. As is, the ROTS Vader is very close to being a joke.

JimJamBonds
09-06-2005, 10:57 AM
Even with help, he's still too short, Prowse is 6' 7" and the suit added even more, standing up in the suit Hayden should have been several inches taller than he was even with lifts, and he didn't look it to me (though that could be due to his body simply being smaller and translating to a smaller torso size, or something wonky with the set or camera angle, but he looks shorter to me).

Did it bother you when C Andrew Nelson played Vader for the SE's? According to his official site he's only 6' 5" I doubt they did anything to make him any taller (as a note I'm aware of the fact you don't like the SE's JT so I know its a bit of a loaded question that I'm asking ;)).

I don't think Vader would be as 'active' once the suit came on compared to before the suit. So I think some 'filling out' can be expected, that suit wasn't built for maximum mobility. :yes:

seanmcfripp
09-06-2005, 11:56 AM
Did it bother you when C Andrew Nelson played Vader for the SE's? According to his official site he's only 6' 5" I doubt they did anything to make him any taller (as a note I'm aware of the fact you don't like the SE's JT so I know its a bit of a loaded question that I'm asking ;)).

I tend to be with SE hater camp too (they want to clean up lightsaber effects and Alderaan explosions, go for it...but adding in scenes or modifying ones that are perfectly decent? No thanx.). The scene you refer to is awkward for so many other reasons than just the guy in the suit. Rhythmically, it just sticks out like a sore thumb...the Vader voice doesn't match the rest of the film...the delivery of the line of dialogue is clumsy. Not to mention the fact that the scene is almost completely unnecessary.

As for the guy walking in the suit, I guess it looked ok. But then again, it was a pretty quick, moving shot, so there's really not a whole lot to look at. The guy walked pretty briskly with a commanding gait, and that's all he really needed to do. Mission accomplished. The Vader scenes in ROTS are static, drawn out shots, where the eye is meant to focus on Vader. The flaws just jump out at you in those scenes.

JediTricks
09-06-2005, 11:23 PM
Like Sean said, the scene blasted by so quickly I never really noticed, I was looking at other stuff. Also, 6'5" is only 2" shorter, its easier to overlook that difference vs 6". Also, there's not much to measure him against from other scenes, whereas in Ep 3 we have the Emperor and the Star Destroyer set.

2-1B
09-07-2005, 01:15 AM
How tall is Bob Anderson ?

Look on the bright side friends, for those of you who don't like the prequels it shouldn't matter that Hayden is in the suit since you won't be watching the DVD in November. :)

seanmcfripp
09-07-2005, 09:37 AM
How tall is Bob Anderson ?

I dunno, I can't seem to find it. David Prowse was 6'7", but he had a monster of a chest and fairly big arms and legs. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Prowse was angry seeing Anderson in the costume, because he didn't fill it out the same way. My assumption has always been that Bob Anderson was a relatively tall guy, but not as big or tall as Prowse. Peter Diamond is only 5'9", so he brought in Bob Anderson a. because he was a very accomplished fencer and b. he was better suited physically to portray the character in the costume. So again, my best guess is that Bob Anderson was relatively tall in stature...certainly not as big as Prowse, but good enough for the sword fights.


Look on the bright side friends, for those of you who don't like the prequels it shouldn't matter that Hayden is in the suit since you won't be watching the DVD in November. :)

Oooohhh, just you wait! After a few spins in the 'ol DVD player, I'll be able to meticulously pick that costume a part. I'll be fully justified in my nitpickery!

2-1B
09-07-2005, 01:43 PM
For the record, I didn't accuse you of nitpicking, just so that's clear for any other readers. :)

But why bother watching it on DVD ? I thought War of the Worlds sucked and there is no way I'm buying that. :)

JimJamBonds
09-07-2005, 02:00 PM
Like Sean said, the scene blasted by so quickly I never really noticed, I was looking at other stuff. Also, 6'5" is only 2" shorter, its easier to overlook that difference vs 6". Also, there's not much to measure him against from other scenes, whereas in Ep 3 we have the Emperor and the Star Destroyer set.

So if I'm following correctly its an issue with proportions? ie. His legs are say 6 " longer but the torso etc. would still be that of a guy who is 6' 1". Right???

JediTricks
09-07-2005, 06:12 PM
It could be, I didn't give it that much thought when I watched it, I didn't exactly study the scene, it was just the reaction.

JimJamBonds
09-08-2005, 12:42 AM
It could be, I didn't give it that much thought when I watched it, I didn't exactly study the scene, it was just the reaction.

Was it a reaction to Hayden being in Das Suit? ;)

seanmcfripp
09-08-2005, 10:41 AM
It could be, I didn't give it that much thought when I watched it, I didn't exactly study the scene, it was just the reaction.

This is an important statement. It's not like anyone only ever had a complaint about Vader's appearance after 20 viewings of the film...it looked weird right away, even in trailer. When he rose up on the slab in that first teaser trailer, my first reaction (and the reaction of quite a few others) was "Whoa, something is off there." Then of course, after watching the film a few times, we are better able to articulate what we think went wrong.

It's like Jabba the Hutt in the SE. I mean, we know it's Jabba, but dangit, somethin' ain't right about him. And of course, after watching a few times, you can say "Oh, his head is shaped funny here, and the color is wonky there" and so on.

Or think about the Greedo shooting first scene...there's just a weird, un-natural movement and tempo to that scene now that it's doctored up. I couldn't say for sure what it was when I saw it the first time, but it stuck out like a sore thumb, and instinctively, I knew something was strange about it. Of course you watch it several times, and you can see where Han's head moving is obviously computer enhanced, and very poorly at that.

Again, these examples go back to Lucas's mindset as a film-maker. When he was presented with the SE Jabba scene, what made him think it was acceptable? Why on earth did he sign off on it? I'm not talking about whether or not the scene should be there in the first place(totally different discussion), I'm talking about the technical proficiency by which it was created. If I would have asked my Effects dept to drop a Jabba into that scene, and they gave me what we saw on screen, I would have been livid: "We spent all that money on THAT!!". I dunno, maybe there was a budget constraint, and that was the best they could do, given the circumstance. But in the end, Lucas approved, signed off, and let that wretched thing into a perfectly good movie. "Fat sluggy thing: check. Deep growly voice speaking funny language: check. Ok, looks like Jabba to me. Let's do this."

I have to think the same thing happened with the look of Vader in ROTS. "Black cape: check. Black leather suit: check. Scary Vader mask and helmet: check. Looks good to me. Ok, we're good to go. Let's do this."

What's funny is that Lucas obviously felt something wasn't quite right about some of those SE scenes either, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to fix them in the latest box set. The latest Jabba (a computer model from TPM) looks a little better than the old one, but not much. The Han/Greedo scene looks a little smoother, but not much. Did he notice how bad the were only after repeated veiwings? Well, he does edit these things, so I can't imagine that would be it. Does he just change his mind about what he likes over time? That's possible. Does criticism from people like us have anything to do with it? Well, probably more than anyone knows. Artists don't like to be told that they aren't taking their craft seriously. It's one thing to debate content. It's another thing to debate technical proficiency. I may not like my mother's mince meat pie, but I danged well better not question her ability to cook. You can debate the content of SW all you want with ol' Georgey, but I think he'd take particular offense if you told him his ROTS Vader looked bad because he has a bad eye for detail and his costume guys sucked. It'd be interesting to see if anything Vader costume-related gets tweaked down the road for ROTS (Super Special Edition mark V with sprinkles on top).

2-1B
09-08-2005, 12:36 PM
On SE Jabba, I think you hit it there, it was just a matter of "good enough, that's the best we can do." And they could obviously do better in the years to follow since they redid him for the DVDs. Still not great but definitely better IMO.

JimJamBonds
09-08-2005, 02:04 PM
I think Jabba could be made better no doubt about it. I think part of it was what could be done 10 yrs ago vs. what can be done with computers now. If you listen to the commentary for ANH while the Death Star plans are being shown Dennis Muren makes the comment that what we see was at the time state of the art. All it really is is a simple grid, what makes it interesting is that Dennis goes on to say that the grid system that we see is now a first step in the process.

JediTricks
09-09-2005, 02:26 AM
Was it a reaction to Hayden being in Das Suit? ;)
No, that's one thing I am fairly sure of because I didn't immediately equate Hayden in the suit at that point, even after we saw him get put together a minute beforehand (of course, what does that say about the way the transition was handled? I think I did a thread about whether most folks think of Anakin as Vader before he gets the suit, but certain people tried to have it both ways... CAESAR :p).



This is an important statement. It's not like anyone only ever had a complaint about Vader's appearance after 20 viewings of the film...it looked weird right away, even in trailer.You are TOTALLY right, I was going to put that about the trailer in my post and thought it wouldn't help, so I pulled it out. The tiny hands when he was on the table was a glaring issue after the first viewing, but before I noticed them I "felt" something was off. Like when I first saw the "arm cross" scene, it's like seeing a Michael Jackson impersonator, the original stood out and somehow this one is standing out from THAT.


Again, these examples go back to Lucas's mindset as a film-maker. When he was presented with the SE Jabba scene, what made him think it was acceptable? Why on earth did he sign off on it? I'm not talking about whether or not the scene should be there in the first place(totally different discussion), I'm talking about the technical proficiency by which it was created.This is a great point. I think it speaks to how Lucas may have gotten too "close" to the new material, seeing only the flaws of the old being patched rather than recognizing the flaws of the new. I know for a fact that some of the ILMers were pointing out how messed up Jabba and the Rontos and stuff were, but upper management types didn't want to hear it.


On SE Jabba, I think you hit it there, it was just a matter of "good enough, that's the best we can do." And they could obviously do better in the years to follow since they redid him for the DVDs. Still not great but definitely better IMO.Not to take us too far off topic, but I think DVD Jabba actually looks worse in some ways than SE Jabba, the new texture is even phonier to me.

2-1B
09-09-2005, 03:07 AM
I think I did a thread about whether most folks think of Anakin as Vader before he gets the suit, but certain people tried to have it both ways... CAESAR :p)

Refresh my memory ? :confused:
(I'd do a search on the matter and dig it up but I think I've done enough of that lately)

At any rate, it sounds like I had the right train of thought going ! :)
CHOOO CHOOOO !

Slicker
09-09-2005, 07:09 AM
I can dig too Cae. I believe this is the thread in question. Linky (http://forums.sirstevesguide.com/showthread.php?t=28906)

seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 09:30 AM
I think it speaks to how Lucas may have gotten too "close" to the new material, seeing only the flaws of the old being patched rather than recognizing the flaws of the new. I know for a fact that some of the ILMers were pointing out how messed up Jabba and the Rontos and stuff were, but upper management types didn't want to hear it.

I love hearing this kind of stuff...always great to have your suspicions confirmed and validated. I seem to remember reading little blurbs here and there about grumblings from ILM folks (and in general people who've worked with and for Lucas). Lucas's PR really seems to do a pretty good job of keeping that stuff bottled up and controlling the damage when disgrunteled employees leave to go somewhere else. It'd be interesting to here more down the road about the SW movie-making process...like re-opening the Kennedy case. 30 years from now, just imagine all the ex-Lucas minions who'd like to spill their guts. I don't want to see Lucas (or the McCullums of the world) dragged through the mud, but I would be very interested in hearing some honest and qualified criticism. Maybe then the PT-defending cult of posters around here will finally start to waiver a bit.

And btw, I don't have anything against anyone who likes the PT, but I don't appreciate the passions of some of the blindly loyal. Same goes for the haters. My flame-retardant suit is at the cleaners, so go easy on me.:)



Not to take us too far off topic, but I think DVD Jabba actually looks worse in some ways than SE Jabba, the new texture is even phonier to me.

My thoughts exactly. I guess two bads don't equal a good. I don't mean to beat this to death, but I find that I really, really want to know what's going on in someone's head when going through this movie making process. Lucas has two choices, right? ANH as is (or was), with no Jabba, or, ANH with Jabba added in. Well, we all know that after some time, Lucas wasn't exactly confident with the end result: digital Jabba mark I was not recieved very well (again, I'm not talking about whether the scene should be there in the first place, I'm talking about technical merit). We know this to be a fact, because Lucas changed Jabba again for the DVD. So I have to look at it this way: he again had 2 choices...have the movie without the scene, or have it with the Jabba from TPM (I'll call it Jabba mark II). I don't consider leaving Jabba mark I in the movie as a choice, because if it's not acceptable to you, then you have to leave it out. The movie survived just fine for 20 years without it, so if it's going to be added in, it has to be done correctly (again, from a technical standpoint). But what does Lucas do? He makes the same mistake a second time! He replaces a rotten apple with another rotten apple. He swapped unacceptable for unacceptable. At what point do you give up the fight to have that scene in the movie?

You see, to me, that's where Lucas deserves all criticism someone's willing to throw in his direction. He makes a decision to add that scene into his movie (which was perfectly fine as was, in my opinion), but isn't willing to put forth the resources necessary to craft the scene properly. Or even worse, he isn't receptive to his people when they say "Uh, look...you've asked us to this effect shot, and, well...this is the best we got. And it looks pretty terrible. We tried George, but we're just not there yet in terms of our ability to be able to pull this kind of thing off." It's not like the Jabba scene was something that had to be delivered at all costs for the movie to be released...it's not like it's the year 1976 and ILM still hasn't finished the death star explosion or dog-fighting shots, which are imparative parts of the story. Without those effects shots, there is no movie, so you have to go with what you got. But the Jabba scene? I mean, come on, how important is it? It's not! Even for people who like the scene, you have to admit that it's only in there for fun..."Hey look, it's Jabba talking to Han. Isn't that cool." So why did George let the scene in to the movie (twice)? I dunno, I really don't. Is he a "it's good enough" kinda guy? Does he just not have the same visual sensibilities that we have? I doubt it. We're just watchers of the films. He's supposed to be one of the most important film-makers of our time (if not all-time).

It's the same danged thing with this whole stupid Vader suit issue. We could talk all day about George's fascination with CGI (again, another discussion for another day), but this Vader suit thing really gets me because it's just a costume! It's not some new technology that film-makers are struggling with....it's a physical, tangible, well refined craft that has been around for a long time. I'm pretty sure the concept of costuming (in some way, shape, or form) has been around since the dawn of civilization. People should be able to handle these things without too much trouble. But after seeing ROTS, I'm not sure. I still go back to the feeling I had when I saw that original teaser trailer. Why did I get that feeling, but Lucas didn't? Or, if he did get that feeling, why doesn't it bother him like it bothers me? I just wish I could have been a fly on the wall in that editing room.

scruffziller
09-09-2005, 10:05 AM
Maybe he will be brought back to play Vader in the new SW TV series. He does need work.

2-1B
09-09-2005, 01:57 PM
Maybe then the PT-defending cult of posters around here will finally start to waiver a bit.

:rolleyes:

I'm quite aware that there are ILMers with gripes about their jobs just as there are some of them who are put before the cameras and seem to love what they are doing and the end results. Oh that's right, those would be the "yes men" since they happen to agree with George, but if a "no man" is above reproach, his opinions are supposed to mean more to one of the Prequel Cult Members. :rolleyes:


And btw, I don't have anything against anyone who likes the PT, but I don't appreciate the passions of some of the blindly loyal.

You should realize that there aren't even many people around here who post about the prequels so you should be careful about the previous quote . . . and I'm curious to see who you think of as "blindly loyal" because I've seen only a handful over the years, not even enough to warrant a cult status. Perhaps you speak of another site, but whatever . . .

Names. I want names. Name those who you see as being part of this "cult," please. :)

Otherwise, you've just lost all credibility with me. :)

seanmcfripp
09-09-2005, 03:52 PM
:rolleyes:

I'm quite aware that there are ILMers with gripes about their jobs just as there are some of them who are put before the cameras and seem to love what they are doing and the end results. Oh that's right, those would be the "yes men" since they happen to agree with George, but if a "no man" is above reproach, his opinions are supposed to mean more to one of the Prequel Cult Members. :rolleyes:

Yes that's exactly what I meant. OT people good. PT people bad. People who agree with me good. Anyone else bad. My little black and white, compartmentalized world is very cozy. There's room if you wanna move in. :yes:


You should realize that there aren't even many people around here who post about the prequels so you should be careful about the previous quote . . . and I'm curious to see who you think of as "blindly loyal" because I've seen only a handful over the years, not even enough to warrant a cult status. Perhaps you speak of another site, but whatever . . .

Names. I want names. Name those who you see as being part of this "cult," please. :)

Otherwise, you've just lost all credibility with me. :)

Well let's see...there's JohnnyPTlover, and uh, PT'nBilly4ever. How about IeatGeorge'sFudge? Oh, and who could forget JarJarJakeLloyd'nme3some. :love:

Seriously though, I can't name names. I just know they spring up every so often. You know the types: "We're lucky to even have these new movies. If you don't like them, just don't watch them. GL is a gunius!" etc., etc., etc.
You can almost picture them walking around doing that little robot pantomime like Conan O'brien does going "I love Jar Jar Binks. I love Jar Jar Binks." in a dead-pan robot voice. You're right, there really are only a handful. But when they all disagree with you at once, it sure seems like there's a bunch of 'em. And boy are they united in purpose.

2-1B
09-10-2005, 02:06 AM
Okay, "every so often" meaning that for the most part they are irrelevant. So that's why we should stay away from such labels so as to not inject that into the discussions between those of us who ARE here regularly. Thanks. :)

BTW, I picked up your suit from the cleaners, here you go, so in my next post I will really fire one off at ya. lol lol lol

JediTricks
09-10-2005, 03:23 AM
Thanks Slicker, that's the one.



It'd be interesting to here more down the road about the SW movie-making process...like re-opening the Kennedy case. 30 years from now, just imagine all the ex-Lucas minions who'd like to spill their guts. I don't want to see Lucas (or the McCullums of the world) dragged through the mud, but I would be very interested in hearing some honest and qualified criticism.Yeah, this is definitely something I've been wanting to see for quite some time, an honest look at the making of Star Wars rather than something that's been revisioned to match what Lucas says history should look like.


My thoughts exactly. I guess two bads don't equal a good. I don't mean to beat this to death, but I find that I really, really want to know what's going on in someone's head when going through this movie making process.I've made digital photos in the past, nothing remotely as major as what they do over there, just light photoshop work, but even then I've found that an artist can delve too deeply into the minutae of something, concentrating on it too zoomed-in or perhaps frame-by-frame, missing the overall product -- I strongly suspect that's what's up with both Han Shooting First bits for example, frame by frame and zoomed in on a specific area they don't look too bad but played at regular speed they look awful.


But what does Lucas do? He makes the same mistake a second time! He replaces a rotten apple with another rotten apple. He swapped unacceptable for unacceptable. At what point do you give up the fight to have that scene in the movie?This goes to what I was talking about in the above comment, as well as that thing about being "too close". Lucas personally felt stymied by not having his Jabba scene played all the way out, to him it didn't matter that we eventually get to see Jabba or that the ANH scene is totally redundant after the Greedo scene since it says the same stuff but in a less dynamic fashion, Lucas just felt that he got shortchanged and it always bugged him that it wasn't there, so putting it back in fills the hole in his heart from that perspective, and the fact that the scene plays poorly and looks bad doesn't really matter to him because after 2 decades of events saying "no" to him, he finally got a chance to revisit that answer.


It's the same danged thing with this whole stupid Vader suit issue. We could talk all day about George's fascination with CGI (again, another discussion for another day), but this Vader suit thing really gets me because it's just a costume! It's not some new technology that film-makers are struggling with....it's a physical, tangible, well refined craft that has been around for a long time. I'm pretty sure the concept of costuming (in some way, shape, or form) has been around since the dawn of civilization. People should be able to handle these things without too much trouble. But after seeing ROTS, I'm not sure. I still go back to the feeling I had when I saw that original teaser trailer. Why did I get that feeling, but Lucas didn't? Or, if he did get that feeling, why doesn't it bother him like it bothers me? I just wish I could have been a fly on the wall in that editing room.If I may get to the meat of it, I suspect it's because "it's neat and we can", because they can all say they left their mark on Vader, they feel they added something new. Notice that nobody at ILM gave a crap about the Threepio suit, they just pulled that out of mothballs and used it again in TPM and kept repainting it and using it on and on, they apparently used several OT-era protocol droid costumes that sported only new paintjobs and eye lights.

It's like R2, the improvements to the light systems on R2-D2 made for a better-looking droid, and perhaps they thought they could get away with a more interesting light system because it was not noticable in the OT, and I think for the most part they did, but then they said "well, one small change is good, so let us make more" and they did the weak CGI R2 and the various flying R2s and all that stuck out some.



I'm quite aware that there are ILMers with gripes about their jobs just as there are some of them who are put before the cameras and seem to love what they are doing and the end results. Oh that's right, those would be the "yes men" since they happen to agree with George, but if a "no man" is above reproach, his opinions are supposed to mean more to one of the Prequel Cult Members. :rolleyes:I have to say, that comes off really thick. We're not talking about people at ILM who gripe about their jobs, we're talking about people at ILM who care about what they're doing yet disagree with the direction the management is taking. A "yes man" is someone who just agrees with the boss immediately without thought or consideration (or at worst, the ones who say what the boss wants to hear DESPITE knowing that he's wrong) -- McCallum has described himself in terms of being the prequels producer as the guy who listens to George's desires and then gets it all done, nothing else, he just gets roadblocks out of Lucas' way rather than of accurately presenting potential challenges in both technical and storytelling aspects, that's a "yes man" to me.

2-1B
09-10-2005, 04:37 AM
Okay, JT, then go tell that same story to people like Rob Coleman and John Knoll who worked very hard on these prequels and much of the CG that you don't like, they would meet that very same description you gave of "we're talking about people at ILM who care about what they're doing"

Let me tell YOU something, then, I think it is very "thick" of you to run right to the McCallum card, what an easy mark when there are several other people who have worked on this new trilogy for many years and seem to have some passion for the project and maybe they've actually found some satisfaction in their finished product. :)

JediTricks
09-10-2005, 04:53 AM
Okay, JT, then go tell that same story to people like Rob Coleman and John Knoll who worked very hard on these prequels and much of the CG that you don't like, they would meet that very same description you gave of "we're talking about people at ILM who care about what they're doing"

Let me tell YOU something, then, I think it is very "thick" of you to run right to the McCallum card, what an easy mark when there are several other people who have worked on this new trilogy for many years and seem to have some passion for the project and maybe they've actually found some satisfaction in their finished product. :)
Hey, which one of us put "I'm quite aware that there are ILMers with gripes about their jobs"? That's not me pal, it's you, and it's a total spin-job, that's what I call laying it on thick.

You know why I picked McCallum? Not only is he the very definition of the yes-man in my eyes, but he's also one of the only other people involved with the project who actually dealt with each movie as a whole entity, the rest looked at it from their unique perspectives of their jobs, which by that very nature pigeonholed their views of the project. The only other name I can even think of that was involved with the movie as a whole would be Ben Burtt when he took on the task of editor, and I haven't heard much from him about his role in that task except the tighter-focus stuff in the commentary tracks and such.

2-1B
09-10-2005, 12:31 PM
What spin are you talking about ? :confused: We know some people who worked there had gripes (by the way every single industry and every single employer has people working for them who have their own gripes lol )

Talk about spin ;) , you're citig these guys at ILM who seemed to know better (and in the case of SE Jabba I would completely agree with them) but it seems like since they agree with your overall point of view, you are elevating their criticisms even though those unnamed ILMers you quote also fit the bill of working "from their unique perspectives of their jobs, which by that very nature pigeonholed their views of the project."

So like I said last night, McCallum is not the proper comparison and furthermore he's not even ILM. :grin:

Mr. JabbaJohnL
09-10-2005, 12:46 PM
What scenes were added to the SE with Vader in them? I can't think of any, other than the recycled ones from ROTJ put into ESB. I know they changed the line "Bring my ship" to "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" but I thought it was the same footage?

Slicker
09-10-2005, 02:06 PM
What scenes were added to the SE with Vader in them? I can't think of any, other than the recycled ones from ROTJ put into ESB. I know they changed the line "Bring my ship" to "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" but I thought it was the same footage?I'm pretty sure the entire part from ESB where they're walking to the shuttle was brand new. I don't recall see them walking outside only the "bring my ship" as they're walking towards the camera.

JediTricks
09-11-2005, 06:51 PM
What spin are you talking about ? :confused: We know some people who worked there had gripes (by the way every single industry and every single employer has people working for them who have their own gripes lol ) The "spin" that if ILMers have something negative to say about the SEs or the prequels, then they must be just griping about their jobs, while those ILMers who don't say anything love their jobs.


Talk about spin ;) , you're citig these guys at ILM who seemed to know better (and in the case of SE Jabba I would completely agree with them) but it seems like since they agree with your overall point of view, you are elevating their criticisms even though those unnamed ILMers you quote also fit the bill of working "from their unique perspectives of their jobs, which by that very nature pigeonholed their views of the project."I did nothing of the sort, I stated my opinion, and in a second sentence used the ILMers comment as a singular example which supports my broader claim. I said I thought Lucas had gotten too close to the material, then I said that thing about ILMers pointing out how Jabba and the Rontos weren't good but the upper management didn't deal with that. Nowhere did I expound upon the ILMers opinions on Lucas' mindset.


So like I said last night, McCallum is not the proper comparison and furthermore he's not even ILM. :grin:Yeah, but McCallum is the producer of the Special Editions. :whip: Your face, it's now in it. ;)



I know they changed the line "Bring my ship" to "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" but I thought it was the same footage?Exactly what Slicker said, the scene with Vader walking out of Cloud City with the new line is a new scene and different from the original version where Vader is walking through a corridor.

2-1B
09-11-2005, 07:44 PM
The "spin" that if ILMers have something negative to say about the SEs or the prequels, then they must be just griping about their jobs, while those ILMers who don't say anything love their jobs.

WHOA, did I not AGREE with them that Jabba looked like crap ? I wasn't saying that they were "just griping", I said they had gripes and it wasn't a putdown. Who doesn't have complaints or gripes within their place of work ? I don't agree on everything with my co-workers so I am certainly not saying that they should all either.

Where did I say that those who kept quiet must love their jobs ? The two people from ILM I named are highly quotable so I'll expect a retraction from you on that one since I did NOT spin it that way.



Yeah, but McCallum is the producer of the Special Editions. Your face, it's now in it.

What exactly is my face in ? :confused:

I thought we were talking about ILM, so maybe you can offer an example of an ILM "yes man." Does Rob Coleman fit your bill ? :)