PDA

View Full Version : Should new footage of Prequel Characters be added to the Classic DVD's?



Tycho
05-28-2002, 08:07 PM
We have no confirmation of several rumors that are going around out there, but this situation mirrors that of when N'Sync was rumored to being added to AOTC. Fans made a difference!

But now the situation is different: these are not pop-culture extras that could be added to scenes in the Classic Trilogy, but Real Star Wars Characters.

Specifically, it is rumored that it's being considered to add Jimmy Smits as Viceroy Bail Organa watching the Death Star approach and destroy his home planet of Alderaan while Grand Moff Tarkin threatens Princess Leia to do just that.

And it is also rumored that Natalie Portman will film for a scene in Return of the Jedi portraying Padme Amidala for an unknown sequence which could involve anything from a taped hologram, an appearance of a ghost sensed by the Force-sensitive, to the actual return of the then-50-year-old living mother of Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia.

We've tried different options to help count votes on how each of you feel, but ultimately SirSteve and JediTricks felt it better to simplify the choices because the 5 options I gave originally confused some people and made it difficult to draw meaning from just glancing at the results.

Let's try this again now and please post your thoughts.

Should new footage of Prequel Characters be added to the Classic DVD's?

plasticfetish
05-28-2002, 08:39 PM
I heard about this a while ago ... (maybe it was here, who knows.)
I wasn't overly impressed with the changes made to the Original Trilogy for the other re-release. Frankly, I thought they were just unnecessary ... and on one or two occasions stuck out like a sore thumb.
I respect Lucas' right to do whatever he wants with his movies ... but, as the saying goes ... at some point you have to just walk away. Is there going to be a trust fund dedicated to updating these 6 movies as new technologies develop in the decades to come? Why not just go back (obvious sarcasm here) and digitally remake the first three movies entirely. Then we can have even more of the strangely animated and entirely too expressive Jaba CG character.
I had heard a while back that the delay to release the OT DVDs had to do with Lucas not having the appropriate amount of time to do it "right". It bothers me to think he was really waiting just so he could fill tiny holes in the plot or ad new eye candy to the already historic films.
Oh well.

Salacious
05-28-2002, 08:40 PM
They should put these new scenes on a seperate disk like they did for Episode 1, but not in the actual movie.

According to Rick McCallum at the Celebration 2, Lucas IS considering new shots for the original trilogy.

Personally, I would like to see the original films on DVD along with the Special Editions.

Brett3xmvpfavre
05-28-2002, 08:40 PM
When did Leia say that Padme was dead? Also i think that there should be a lot of changes made to link the 2 trilogies together and make them flow easier. For example Obi-Wan says he was trained by Yoda, but obviously Qui Gonn Jin did that.

Maximillian Phokas
05-28-2002, 08:47 PM
Adding extra footage to already existing films 20+ years old is ridiculous. This is nothing more than another money-making scheme cooked up by Lucas. Granted, we are all waiting for the Classic Trilogy to come out on DVD - heck, that's why I BOUGHT a DVD player in the first place, but why change something already familiar to the audience? Better yet, why taint that Classic Trilogy with footage from the new trilogy that, in my opinion, had a far less resonance and much less depth?

If Lucas wants to add anything to the original trilogy, let's see the original scene with Luke viewing the space battle from Tatooine, or the scene with he and Biggs. For Empire, let's see that deleted Wampa-attack scene, or the Desert Sand storm in Jedi. Lucas already has footage to add. Why MAKE MORE?

And finally, and this seems like a contradiction to the above paragraph, but I'm not happy with the idea of changing movies around to reflect the current PC charts, or what seems acceptable. It was OK for us to watch back in 1977 Han Solo shooting Greedo first, before they redid that scene - poorly I might add. Or add a lame sound byte of Luke screaming as he's falling down the shaft in Cloud City in Empire (which is a recylced scream by Palpatine when he gets thrown in Jedi), or turning an already cheezy (but campy) music sequence in Jabba's palace into a Disneyfied nightmare. Don't tamper with the Classics!!! We liked them just fine before. There's no need to take an already existing movie and tweak it.

JediTricks
05-28-2002, 08:48 PM
From the ROTJ script...

LUKE: Leia... do you remember your mother? Your real mother?

LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.

LUKE: What do you remember?

LEIA: Just...images, really. Feelings.

LUKE: Tell me.

LEIA: She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad.

CooLJoE
05-28-2002, 08:59 PM
Obi WAS trained by Yoda. Remember in AOTC Yoda was training many young Jedi. Obi went through the same thing. So that statement stands true.

And Leia never said PADME was dead. Just that her mother was dead. Remember, Padme gave both of them up to 2 seperate parents. So to Leia, her real mother was whoever cared for her after Padme gave her up.

As for my view of the changes. They sound like crap. Its fine the way they are. SE was ok, but original was best, and if anything I would like for Lucas to make it so we can choose which version BETWEEN THOSE 2 that we want to watch.

IF ANYTHING, throw in the scene with Luke watching the battle from tatooine which was in the original book. Not sure about the Luke/Biggs scene since I have never heard of it.

JodyB
05-28-2002, 09:07 PM
Why add any new footage!! You guys need to remember why you love those films so much! Did anyone add scenes to Citizen Kane? NO!!!! Great films are great films because they were made great the first time!!!

stillakid
05-28-2002, 09:10 PM
Oddly enough, I voted "Yes, it would help bring all the 6 movies together!"

Why? Because he already f'd them up with TPM and it's unlikely that he'll go back and change that. I absolutely hate that he's screwing with the established storyline that everybody in the world loves, but at this point anyway, I'd be more content with something cohesive across the saga. This isn't to say that I support gratuitous cameos and idiotic additions (like showing Hayden donning the suit in EPIII), but minor dialogue to "introduce" Qui Gon as Obi's master is necessary. And don't forget about the Midi's.

Enhance and improve the FX until the cows come home. That's cool with me.

stillakid
05-28-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Should new footage of Prequel Characters be added to the Classic DVD's?


No, new footage of Prequel Characters should not be added to the Classic DVD's.

Adding Prequel characters to the Original Trilogy will not bring cohesiveness to the saga, rather they would be nothing more than cameo appearances just because George is able to do it.

However, changes to the story itself, through dialogue and/or character action should be included to bring cohesiveness to the saga (ie, Qui Gon Jinn, Midichlorian introductions)

And, yes, enhancing FX (ie. Rancor monster matte lines) is ok by me.

I hope that clears up any misconstruing of my vote. :) There doesn't appear to be a checkbox that completely reflects my views.

bigbarada
05-28-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Maximillian Phokas
Adding extra footage to already existing films 20+ years old is ridiculous. This is nothing more than another money-making scheme cooked up by Lucas.

No, releasing a DVD set of the original versions, a DVD set of the SE's AND a DVD set of the enhanced versions would be a shameless money making scheme. Lucas knows that fans would buy multiple sets of the OT DVDs if he released them, thus he is holding off and waiting until he can "do them right." That is about as far from a "money-making scheme" as you can get.

Notice how many films release a barebones DVD and shortly afterwards a deluxe DVD of many movies (X-Men, Pearl Harbor)? That is blatantly milking public demand, fortunately GL refuses to go that route.

Anyways, back to the topic. No changes really need to be made to the OT for them to mesh with the prequels. I think we really only need to have the SE changes redone with improved technology and update more areas special-effects-wise. If he wants to film new scenes and add them in that is fine too. He knows what the entire story is intended to be, so I say let him tell it. Sure I would like to have the original versions on DVD just for historical preservation; but I can live with the changes as long as they mesh better visually.

JediTricks
05-28-2002, 10:32 PM
Wow, look at "YES" go!

On behalf of the entire SSG moderating staff, I sincerely hope no confusion was caused by the switch to the new thread only a few minutes after the old one was created. The original vote count has been transferred over here.

GroundskeeperWillie
05-28-2002, 10:35 PM
Lucas should definitely put the Classic (pre-Special Editions) versions on any DVD release--he should feel free to change the movies however he sees fit, but he does sort of owe it to the older fans who fell in love with 'our' version of SW twenty years ago. It's too bad that Lucas and company feel that they are making the movies 'better' with every addition--I'd like the freedom to pick and choose. The new Jabba in ANH sucks, but the new Wampa footage in ESB is pretty good. I'll always bow in deference to John Dykstra's dogfight sequence from ANH, but there's no question that the CGI stuff in the Special Edition looks better. Luke now screams like a little girl in ESB, which is a total betrayal of the guts it took to choose death over joining Vader and the Dark Side. There are many decisions Lucas made throughout all three of the Special Editions, not all of them bad, not all of them good. The beauty of DVD is, Lucas could easily give us a menu option that allows us to make our own version of the movies, altering whatever scenes we see fit from the choices he's given us to make our own 'perfect cut'. Why he doesn't do this is beyond me.

And until I can have Han shooting Greedo in the stomach BEFORE Greedo has a chance to fire, there'll only be one real version of the OT for me...

Tycho
05-28-2002, 11:00 PM
I voted "No."

Padme should be dead and Luke's tragedy or lone-victory over evil (man against the world thing) would not be a tragedy if he

1) gets a holo-letter from his mother conveniently stored in R2 all these years and never mentioned until now.

2) sees her ghost when she's not a Jedi

3) if she's still alive and it negates all the EU, which has always been strictly controlled so these problems never arose. That's what editors jobs are for.

If your estranged father goes out and murders millions of people and you have to bring him to justice, it is not a happy movie, OK? If mom's been around, she ought to have done something about this when you were 2 years old. Don't tell me she's alive now!

Thanks for being there these past 22 years, Mom. If I were Luke, I'd set her on fire in the woods along with my good-for-nothing father.

Next, Bail Organa. If we learn who he is in Episode 3 and get to even like him (2 lines of dialogue in Palpatine's office doesn't cut it), we'll remember him when we think of Alderaan. Especially if there are scenes on Alderaan in Episode 3. We'll remember him, just as Leia is, while Tarkin is threatening her with killing him (and their whole planet). So we'll empathize with Leia - one of the main characters of the movie, feeling and remembering what she does. If we see Bail Organa, it takes away from one of Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher's best moments in the movie.

It's totally unnecessary and even detrimental.

Not to mention if any OT characters are supposed to react to anything done with the prequel characters' appearances, they'll come off reacting to them as bad as Harrison Ford does when Greedo's shot goes off right into the wall next to him and the audio dubbing sounds bad, and he makes no indication like he was surprised he was shot at. There's a difference to being cool under fire and not actually being fired at. Greedo WAS going to at least mug Han for the money he owed Jabba, if not kill him anyway. By firing the only shot, Han actually doesn't murder him in cold blood. It's still self-defense, just the gray area.

But I wouldn't care if he murdered Greedo in cold blood. Through the friendships he makes in the OT, his character becomes a good guy and less of a jerk and mercenary. But I like that guy Han started as. Let's not soften him up. And if you're Lucasfilm, let's not deny that you are. If you want to be PC, be proud of it. Don't deny it or don't change it. It's that simple.

Lord Tenebrous
05-28-2002, 11:03 PM
I have the same sentiment. I hate the TPM DVD because of the added podrace scenes. And the air taxi sequence isn't relevant to the plot.

It's just pretty pictures and timewasters, and I hate them. That's why I only watch the original versions of these movies. If I want Lucas' afterthoughts, I'd rather read a book on it.


If the only version of the DVD is the "Archival" edition, then I'll digitize my tapes so that the initial magic can never be eroded away...

see3poman
05-28-2002, 11:05 PM
DON'T DO IT!!!!!! The idea of adding prequel character's to the classic trilogy is insulting to the fans who grew up with these movies. Ted Turner decided to add color to all the b/w movies in his catalog which included classics like "It's a Wonderful Life". Most of Hollywood objected, saying it destroyed the classic old movies. And if I recall, you George were one of those who protested the loudest. So what's the story Mr. Lucas??? It's ok to muck with your own films but not someone else's??? I refuse to watch the "Special Edition's" I LOVE the original's. Most star Wars fans know how the story goes, so who are you changing these films for? The unborn Star Wars fans of the future? Your loyal fans are here and now. We who grew up with Star Wars are who you should be pleasing. And when the next generation, or the one after that watch Star Wars, they will be glad you didn't change the original's anymore than you alreay have. It's one thing to clean up the visual's, and tweek the sound, but to add or remove character's is just plain Banta fodder.

Jedi_Master_Guyute
05-28-2002, 11:23 PM
Eh, i dunno...i wanna see how it'll be done and so on and so forth.....i agree that bringing back Padme will be kinda goofy, unless it's done tastefully...like a flashback when Leia is talkin' about her, something like that...but none of that ghost seein' crap...i mean, good lawd, in that scene with the ghosts it's: Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan and now Padme...crap, bring in all the freakin' characteres who have croaked: Biggs, Greedo, Jabba, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru, and i would LOVE to see a ghost version of everybody's favorite pilot: Jek Porkin's, maybe he'd be snackin' on some chips or drinkin' some brew with a Tie fighter pilot, being buddies...bring him on, i say!!! (in case nobody caught it, that was sarcasm) but, yeah, my two cents...

Uncle Owen
05-28-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Brett3xmvpfavre
When did Leia say that Padme was dead? Also i think that there should be a lot of changes made to link the 2 trilogies together and make them flow easier. For example Obi-Wan says he was trained by Yoda, but obviously Qui Gonn Jin did that.

Not exactly....I think Clones clears that up nicely...It shows Yoda training the Younglings...So from a certain point of view, Yoda trains all the Jedi.

Owen Out!!:cool:

GroundskeeperWillie
05-28-2002, 11:44 PM
To the people who are getting all riled up about this, there is NO REASON to make this a black-and-white issue. Yes, Lucas has the right to change his movies, and we, as fans, should have the right to watch whichever version we like. To argue that the old trilogy is the only way the movies should be watched is nonsense. To the person who posted saying 'who is he making these changes for, future generations of Star Wars fans?' Well, yes. I may appreciate the old Ray Harryhausen 'Jason and the Argonauts'-style movies, but I don't put them in the same bracket as Star Wars, and I don't think Melies' 'A Trip to the Moon' is all that great except from a historical perspective. Unless the movies are given an update (uniform CGI effects, etc), they run the risk of being 'those crappy old movies dad always tries to make us watch', and that would be pretty sad.

The point is, Lucas can do whatever he wants with the movies, PROVIDED he makes the original versions available as well. And in answer to Lucas' assertion in the latest issue of the Insider that the idea of putting the original versions on a DVD alongside the Special Editions would be like putting all of the early rough cuts on too, that's faulty logic. The original trilogy was released in the theater as is--that makes them 'official', at least official as of 1977, 1980, and 1983. They are not rough cuts, but finished films, and for an entire generation of fans, they are the versions we know and love. Why can't we have both? That's what DVD menus and bonus disks are for. Lucas has already raped us to the tune of $100s of dollars on different versions of the movies over the years so far--I don't imagine many people would be offended now if they were asked to shell out an extra $20 per movie for a bonus disk that included the original versions. I don't see what all the debate is for--can't we have it both ways?

CaptainSolo1138
05-28-2002, 11:45 PM
Though the idea of Star Wars v3.0 is more often than not a dumb idea to me, there are a few things I think would be cool about it. That's why I voted "Maybe...". I think the movies are being tied together just fine. Saying that they're not sufficiantly tied together is a rather premature statement, seeing as E3 is still three (loooooong) years away. I think (if Mr. Lucas doesn't blow it) that with the release of E3 the movies will flow wonderfully. There's just something almost sacred about the OT. To use an oft borrowed cliche, it's like painting eyebrows on the Mona Lisa. If Lucas keeps up his "revisions", pretty soon it'll be a 15 hour movie. Hmmmmmmm.... six movies at 15 hours apiece is 90 hours of Star Wars. Maybe I should rethink my stance on this.:D

Darth Nihilus
05-28-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by CooLJoE
And Leia never said PADME was dead. Just that her mother was dead. Remember, Padme gave both of them up to 2 seperate parents. So to Leia, her real mother was whoever cared for her after Padme gave her up.

Why would her step-mother be sad. Plus Luke specifically asked about her "real mother".

Darth Annexis
05-29-2002, 12:07 AM
Many DVDs have extended branching features...kind of like a find your fate novel. I think that the main root menu should give you the option of additional scenes intertwined with the feature or viewed seperatly...but definately on one disc. I would like to see the whole story like I am living it, one continuous movie...I only wish they had doe that with E1.

LusiferSam
05-29-2002, 12:17 AM
I voted maybe. If new footage is added as DVD extras, I'm all for it. But other wise, I'm not so sure.

bigbarada
05-29-2002, 12:29 AM
The good news is that Lucas changes his mind more often than he changes his movies, the OT DVD release is still at least three years away, who knows how much will change by then.

I'm of the mind that Lucas should release the original versions now with a few extras. Then after Ep3 is released he can change whatever he wants and re-release the altered versions. Who here wouldn't buy both if he did this?

RAVAZ
05-29-2002, 12:36 AM
I think its fine that Lucas creats or re-editd the original trilogy to whatever vision he wants. It is after all his baby. And for those of you who want the original trilogy on dvd in its original format, just goto ebay and buy it! Its already available. I owned them for a while til I gave it to my brother for Xmas. Its perfect. I might get me another copy soon.

JosephGD
05-29-2002, 12:55 AM
I personally hope they change everything so that it is updated. I love the classics as much as anyone, but you have to advance with time. In a perfect world Lucas would keep adding and changing the films every ten years so they stay up with technology. Personally I'm not against them remaking episode 4, 5 and 6. Then we could have the ultimate consistency. Get rid of the old and bring in the new. Give me a new luke and Han. Remake the classics entirely now that we can. If this happened Lucas could make even more $$. He could sell the unedited to the classic minded and the new to people like myself. Maybe this time we can get better Ewoks. Not so teddy bear like but more like wookies. :) He could expand on Boba Fett and tie everything together. So my vote is to remake the old classics with the actors of today.

Before the flames come down let me say I was old enough to see the ANH, ESB and ROTJ in the theatre (Well kinda I was 1 when ANH came out). I love them but they are the past.

2-1B
05-29-2002, 01:01 AM
I voted "maybe". I'll evaluate it on a case by case basis, just like with the Special Editions. Some stuff I liked, some stuff I didn't. :cool:

If he didn't need to include midichlorians in the 2nd (and probably 3rd) episode, why would he need to put them in the 4th, 5th, and 6th?

cameronmeiklejohn86
05-29-2002, 01:13 AM
Why don't they make a seperate "Deleted scenes" DVD to accompany the six-ilogy!

jeffonthego
05-29-2002, 01:46 AM
At first, I was hesitant (now as with Special Edition of original trilogy). But really, movies aren't gospel, if the author wants to rewrite (as one might for a new edition of a book), then why not! Plus, I trust Lucas' sense of the story arc, and am sure that changes would add value to the story.

However, what does alarm me, is that unlike books which stick around for ever, as technology changes, earlier versions of movies can become quite hard to find. For instance, at my local Blockbuster you can't rent original versions of the first trilogy. This isn't good, because sometimes you want to just watch a movie as it appears. One day people will want to see what a pioneer 1977 sci-fi movie looked like (without late 20th c or early 21st c. added scenes/innovations).

What calms this worry of mine is that DVD and digital technology should allow for pleasing everyone. My stipulation is all non-original scenes (ie, non 1977, 1980, 1983) should be programmed as their own "chapters" on DVDs, with an easy option for viewers to select "original movie", "special edition", "2003? version", etc.

Wouldn't this please everyone?

jeffonthego
05-29-2002, 01:55 AM
Just read through all posts, and agree about adding old cut scenes to DVDs (again as chapters that can easily be watched or not watched).

The Luke/Biggs scene on Tatoine is a big one that I have heard about since the time of the original film. I believe that it adds to the sense of Luke's frustration about not being able to join the Rebellion, and also explains his warm welcome to Biggs when he finally makes it.

Just curious, what is the scene in the book about Luke watching a battle in the stars from Tatoine. Several people have mentioned it. Was it filmed, do we know for sure?

BespinLobot
05-29-2002, 02:15 AM
As a member of the film comunity, it was once said to me that "No film is ever finished, it is merely abandoned." Lucas re-iterated this idea in his recent Maxim interview. I agree. They are his movies, and he should be allowed to make any alterations to them he sees fit Perhaps time and technology at the point he was making the films did not allow for the full spectrum of his vision. The beauty of the situation is that now he can make them even more rich and beautiful for us than he could do back in 1977. I agree with any change that Lucas deems to make, for after all they are his world, and any change he makes only enriches that universe for us. (With, of course, the exception of Greedo shooting first. Bad idea. Horrible freakin' idea.)

- A. Allen, esq.

Tycho
05-29-2002, 02:27 AM
Regarding the Tatooine scenes:

Yes, it was filmed. But I agree that it should have been cut. It interrupts the continuity of the whole opening scene. The only time Luke can actually see something in space is before the Tantive is captured. He can see little specks of light and some fire being exchanged between them. The only way I could see handling this scene insertion, is to do some more shots of the Blockade Runner fighting the Star Destroyer. Otherwise it all happens too fast.

When Luke goes to see Biggs, he tries to get Cammie, Fixer, and Deak to go and look at the ships exchanging fire. They're too late and see nothing, then make fun of Luke for hallucinating it all until Biggs shows up and believes him. Then Luke talks about joining the Rebellion.

Meanwhile, the stormtroopers have boarded the ship, killed practically everyone and are searching for Leia while R2 and 3PO are trying to escape.

Do you really want to interrupt that with "characters you don't know that don't figure in the bigger story" who are trying to watch it through macrobinoculars and then making fun of some kid (Luke - though we're not introduced to him being in the plotline yet either)?

To me it wouldn't have made any sense (back in '77) and it is disruptive of the flow now.

It's the eqivalent of say, having Anakin watch the Invasion of Naboo (if he could see it) through a telescope, almost 40 minutes before Qui-Gon and Padme walk into Watto's shop and we start to realize that Anakin is going to interact with the cast members.

Luke is introduced when the droids are bought from the Jawas in ANH. About 20 minutes into the film. Let's leave it that way.

The only other way to do this is to have a flashback on what was happening on Tatooine during the space battle, AFTER 3PO and R2 have escaped. It's just silly.

I've seen the footage at the '97 Comic Con (I think it was) and it is a cool curiosity. Better to put it on the DVD as additional footage but NOT during the flow of the movie.

jeffonthego
05-29-2002, 02:49 AM
Thanks Typho for the insight on those scenes.

Put in perspective, I agree with you. Didn't realize that the Biggs scene happens in the middle of the space/Leia+droids scenes.

Leave them on the cutting room floor...

jeffonthego
05-29-2002, 03:23 AM
Good point to about added footage. With DVD technology, not all extra scenes need to be integrated into the story. Some can just be added curiosities, like blooper clips, etc. A good DVD was for Gladiator, where you can watch all kinds of scenes that didn't make it, but as extras - they are not integrated into the movie sequence.

bobg
05-29-2002, 03:51 AM
i think it is a bit to early to start worrying about this ,we havnt even seen episode 111 yet ,so we don't really know what will happen to padme,yes liea said she was dead, but luke thought his father was dead, and didnt know he had a sister,im'e sure george lucas knows what hes doing ,i dont think padme will suddenly show up out of the blue in rotj,as he's supposedly adding to all three so i think it will be explained along the way.we have to find out why padme gives her children away .and why liea becomes a princes and luke becomes a farm boy.there's a lot to be explained yet which will hopefully be answerd in episode 111.so it might make sense to add,but who knows yet?only lucas knows himself.

plasticfetish
05-29-2002, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by JosephGD
I personally hope they change everything so that it is updated. I love the classics as much as anyone, but you have to advance with time. In a perfect world Lucas would keep adding and changing the films every ten years so they stay up with technology. Personally I'm not against them remaking episode 4, 5 and 6. Then we could have the ultimate consistency. Get rid of the old and bring in the new.


Hmmm ... I may change my mind ... and while we're at it, let's go back and have him remake THX 1138 ... but this time he can CG hair on Robert Duvall's head. Of course, I would like to have six or seven versions of this movie on the disk. Perhaps an animated musical version also. Hmmm.

wedgeA
05-29-2002, 05:08 AM
I support the idea that Lucas should update the SFX for the "first" trilogy to bring it more in line with the prequels. But, while Lucas does have the right to do what he wishes with his films, don't prefer any newly filmed footage added in. They would simply disrupt the rhythm of the films.

Most discrepancies that are posed by TPM and AOTC can either: 1) be explained in Episode III,
2) can be explained away (ie Yoda/Qui Gon as instructing Obi Wan), or
3) just be lived with.

Especially in the case of Obi Wan and Luke, Obi Wan was not going to reveal the truth about Anakin and threaten Luke's fufillment of his destiny. Also, if asked about events 20 years ago, most people are not going to provide an exact account anyway, so there should be some leeway for Obi Wan's inconsistencies.

sunblind
05-29-2002, 06:13 AM
I don't have a problem with this. I just think however that it's cool to see it all wind togther.

conan9845
05-29-2002, 06:58 AM
I have never posted to these forums before, but I just have to now. Why would anyone want to stop a new generation from enjoying a new version of the classic trilogy. New scenes could definitely make the flow of the 6 movies, not two trilogies, much better. If they make the original classic version of the movies available on DVD along with any new, updated version, what's there to complain about. If you don't want anything to do with new versions, just don't watch them, but don't spoil it for those of us that would like to see what Lucas has always wanted in these films.

Darthpost
05-29-2002, 07:03 AM
I think that deleted scenes would make the dvd worthwhile. Adding new scenes would bring the series together but I would rather see acting instead of cgi

mrmiller
05-29-2002, 07:25 AM
Yes- in a way. I'd like to see the new footage, but would like the DVD's to be able to play the original version, special edition, and "extra" special edition with the EP1-3 footage. I'm sure it is possible to construct a dvd where you can choose what edition you want to wach, all on one CD with a 2nd CD of extras. It would be interesting to see how GL would change things.

=MATT=

Quite-Gone Jim
05-29-2002, 07:32 AM
There are only a couple of things I'd like to see done.

1) Fix some of the bugs (I still hate it when R4 blows his top and Luke says what about that blue one. We then pan to R2 and R4 is standing right next to him).

2) Clean up some of the effects.

3) The only prequel character I'd like to see added is in Empire. Get rid of the cheesy looking Emperor. Put in Ian McDiarmid and re-record the dialog.

Making other changes would, in my opinion, weaken the storyline and slow the pace of the movies.

I would like to see some of the deleted scenes added as a new area, but not included in the movie. I have to agree with a lot of the rest of you. Please include the original version in the release. I personally like the original Jedi ending much better than the special edition one and wish I could see that again (my original tape went to pot).

Darth-AWT
05-29-2002, 08:10 AM
I think it would be a great idea to add more scenes to the OT. Think about it this way, if you are like me, you own the OT in 2 or 3 forms. We would lose nothing by GL adding more scenes. We can always watch the older tapes (which we can transfer to DVD even now).

I would love to see more added.

JediBoulton
05-29-2002, 08:12 AM
I didn't read all of these post -- so I am not sure what all has been commented on. Here is my opinion...

The classic should be left alone. In the new Insider, Lucas already stated that he was not going to add the ORIGIONAL version to DVD -- in his mind the SPECIAL EDITION was the origional version. I would like to see the cut "biggs" sceens, but if I cant see them -- thats fine also.

I strongly oppose Jimmy Smits and Natalie Portman being added to Episodes 4,5,or 6. It just does not seem right to alter something so precious.

Many people grew up with SW, and I believe that many of these same people would like to bring up their children with the same great classics. I know I will want my kids to see the origional Frosty the Snowman, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and even, "It's a Wonderful Life". These movies have such a wonderful message of good classic values and also give that vibe of nastalgia--Star Wars has that same "spark".

Lets leave the origionals alone....

General Warpig
05-29-2002, 08:29 AM
If George wants to alter the OT.They're his to alter!IMO Mr lucas has proved yet again what all movies can be,redefining and adding to a massive social ripple he has created!A film can be seen as entertainment by viewersAs every artist knows,what people think is not important(if important at all)to the completion and extraction of an idea!
Lucas has proven that film can be an ever changing thig,,like all great stories,myths and legends.There are many King Arthur legends,though they are unproven they still impact people at many different levels!The real question is.............Do you wish to stagnate and except no new challenge.Or grow and embellish that which we know already.
If Star Wars is Lucas(we are always told he is the visionary master !).Then as he grows and learns so will his tales.And depth,reflection and knowledge come from "life experience".Since his original idea,George has raised children,built an Empire(lol) and grown as a person!So will it be with his art!!!!


Honey,you cant stop the change,anymore than you can stop the suns from setting.................think about it!

Wookie Boy
05-29-2002, 08:42 AM
I voted no, because the additions made to the original trilogy for the Special Edition release did not make them better movies (except Jedi). But on the other hand, if I could have the choice to watch the classic version or a version with new added footage and have all of the deleted scenes that we have only read about or seen still photos of, I would enjoy that as well. As long as I am able to buy and watch the original version on DVD, I will be happy. They could be really cool and fun additions or they could be as bad as the revised Greedo scene. I disagree with the person complaining about the changed ending to ROTJ. It was a much better ending in the Special Edition.

The Bald Ewok
05-29-2002, 08:50 AM
Absolutely he should...it would strengthen the Prequals. If you dont like it then dont buy it...its as easy as that. Otherwise grow up about it.

brentfett
05-29-2002, 09:07 AM
No way, don't do it! The only way it would work is if it was on a completely separate disk. I love the new trilogy, but it definitely has some negative issues surrounding it. I don't think they should taint the old classics.

Jonna
05-29-2002, 09:52 AM
They should release the original, special edition and future reworking all on one DVD set for each movie and make everyone happy.

Mandalorian Candidat
05-29-2002, 09:55 AM
Please don't change the OT! I didn't mind most of the changes in the SE since the FX enhanced the movies slightly. Some of them I can stomach, but others (Greedo shooting first, the ROTJ finale) make me just retch.

Why can't Lucasfilm do this: Put the original movies on the DVD and add in the option to include the SE features upon demand. They could even do the same for any prequel character footage or original deleted trilogy scenes for optional viewing. How hard could this be? Brian Singer did it for the X-Men DVD for deleted scenes and they work very well. This way Lucasfilm can cater to new fans who aren't as familiar to the OT and the older fans who remember them when they were kids before all the alterations.

I'm so glad I have the THX set just so I can watch the unaltered movies when I feel like it.

TK421
05-29-2002, 10:30 AM
get off the old page Mr. lucas!!!:o :frus: :rolleyes:

Maximillian Phokas
05-29-2002, 11:00 AM
After reading some of the comments made since my first posting, I'm still against tampering with the classics, but have a glimmer of hope that most of the discrepancies can be cleared up in Episode III. For one: who really instructed Obi-Wan? Qui Gon, Yoda, or both? Is Boba Fett a simple clone of his father, or will the stories of his Mandalorean image make it into the story, as was written in the original ESB screenplay?

And of course, the most blatantly inconsistent arc: the idea that Threepio doesn't "know which planet I'm on" in ANH, when he's been sitting not only on the same planet, but the SAME moisture farm, for 10 years between TPM and AOTC! Before we all decide whether to tamper with the OT because Lucas doesn't seem to remember what he did a few years ago, I'm holding out that all loose ends will be tied up in Episode III, so there won't HAVE to be a reason to fix the OT.

While many here seem to favor some tweaking, my opinion is that these tweaks will not really fix anything, but make it more disjointed. We seem to be going back to the Greedo scene a lot here, and the general consensus is that while Lucas thought it better and more PC to have Greedo shoot first, you'd think that will all the technological capabilities Lucasfilm claims to have now, the visual and sound editing would have been half-way decent. True, many of the SE features made the movies better in ways, but I feel that there are just as many "bad" changes as there are "good" ones. You all might get disappointed with any more changes.

Darth Tornado
05-29-2002, 11:20 AM
Redoing the OT in any form is a big mistake. The Special Editions were alright but I would of settled for just the upgrade in special effects than new scenes (my favorite is the rebel ships taking off from Yavin that made it for me).

If they all become available on DVD I will only touch the Special Edition I love the classic version but the special editions is the current view and any new stuff will just detract from the story. Im sure since we are Star Wars fans that our fertile imaginations will fill in the gaps between the Episodes we dont need Lucas to change the movies to give us material we already imagined. I just want the DVDs NOW I dont care to wait forever to get them in DVD form I have waited long enough so MR Lucas please deliver.
:cry:

Pendo
05-29-2002, 11:44 AM
I've actaully voted YES because I think it would be interesting to see how and what is done. I will still prefere that classic versions and hope that they will not be forgotten, but adding Prequel characters may improve our thoughts on the Special Editions.

As long as it's done tastefully, I don't have a problem with it and would like to see it.

PENDO!

haggie
05-29-2002, 01:46 PM
The films have already been ruined by George's tinkering when he made the Special Editions. At this point I think he should go ahead and add more because they couldn't get any worse. I've got the original versions on laserdisc and am planning on burning them to a DVD anyway so I'll always have the real deal. Since I don't like the SE versions anyway, he can do whatever he wants to them. I'll check them out but I'll still stick with the originals when I go to actually watch the series.

Unfortunately, George has already stated that we will not see the original versions released again. I HATE the Special Editions so this really burns me up. That ridiculous Jabbas scene, Greedo shooting first, Luke's stupid scream when falling down the shaft, and the removal of the Lap Ti Nek song from Jabba's palace (and the horrible, super-long song that replaced it) are things that need to just go away. It saddens me to think that there are millions of fans out there (younger ones most likely) that have only seen the Special Editions. I wish the DVD release would include the original and new versions of the films.

jedihunter25
05-29-2002, 02:51 PM
I voted YES. I've seen the classic triology a million times and it would be nice to put some more spice in to it and I think that Lucas did an excelent job with the Special Edition.

Imperial Monarche
05-29-2002, 02:58 PM
well, there was a few things i didn't like bout the special editions, like changing some of the classic lines. but other than that, i think they were good. and to add prequel characters into the original trilogy, in my view, is a good idea to make it flow better. but, for the DVD, what they should do and what i know they prolly won't do, is include three additions to the original movies, the original, the special editions, and the definitive editions. that way everyone is happy. they shouldn't add the scenes to another disc by themselves, cuz it would be like deleted scenes. and they should all be offered in one big set, yeah that'll be a pretty penny, but we all know we already spend alot for the movies as it is.

Tycho
05-29-2002, 03:52 PM
Why do I waste my time? I guess because I care and it's always more interesting than whatever I'm "supposed" to be doing...

A NEW HOPE

The Good...

the wipes and disolves / recoloring
the dewbacks
the footage of Han Solo in the Jabba sequence
Han rushing into all the stormtroopers
the Falcon's landing on Yavin
the ships leaving Yavin
Biggs appearing in the hanger
the Death Star battle additions
the Death Star explosion


The Bad...

Greedo should never have shot first, period.

Lak Sivrak should not have been replaced with Ketwol

Ketwol's reversed alien head was stupid too - I keep thinking of that Prince song, "Rasberry Beret." I don't like the song and I don't like being reminded of it in Star Wars!

Jabba the Hutt being done with off-the-shelf software when they did so well with him in TPM. He's too skinny on the side of his head when he turns.


The Improvements they could do:

the Devastator's approach to the Death Star (with some escort TIEs or whatever.

Shots of the TIEs flying a little more exciting pattern on approach to the Death Star (right before Leia's interrogation).

Exterior shots of the Falcon fighting during the gunner station scenes in the Death Star escape (but don't cut any of the interior footage - this is classic) Just extend the scene.

Several shots with stunt doubles in for Obi-Wan and Vader in their duel, but none where you can see Obi-Wan's face under his hood. There should be no way to tell the additions aren't with Alec Guiness.

With Jabba the Hutt, keep the added scene from the Special Edition. Redo Jabba the Hutt again! Use the new technology to make him match the Jabba seen in TPM, which is much closer to ROTJ. Keep Han walking over his tail, etc. That was all good, just make Jabba look right, especially from the side. Finally, when Jabba says "...but fail to pay and I'll put a price on your head so high you won't ever again be able to go near civilization!" cut away from Harrison Ford and show Jabba's face and make him look sadistic and evil like when he tells Luke "I shall enjoy watching you die!" Then cut back to Han when he says "Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." Just keep all of Harrison's sarcastic nuances visible. So maybe delete NO footage of Han, just time it slower so you have time to cut to Jabba while he makes his threat. It loses its potency when he has his back to us when he says it.

Maybe earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves or flooding as the Death Star's approach to Alderaan causes massive gravitational problems for the planet in its last few minutes. The view of the Death Star from Alderaan's surface. If there's a shot of panicked citizens, we could see Bail Organa, but he should have no speaking lines. I really think doing this would detract from the empathy the audience feels with Princess Leia if this is done wrong. I will be skeptical and vote not to add this scene in the what not to do section below.

The Biggs scene at Anchorhead and the Luke scene at the moisture vaporator repair location - add them as extras to the DVD, but do not insert them into the movie.

The Cantina scene - restore the bar creatures to their original selves, and if Han must be p.c., digitally use a more surprised look on Harrison Ford (from Episode 4's used or never-used outtakes, and make him startled from Greedo's shot. Furthermore, make Greedo talking "Italian" (big arm movements) to that it would appear that the gun accidently went off instead of fired at a 25 degree angle divergence from its muzzle. Fix Han Solo's voice track.

Get rid of the shotgun blast noises Leia's gun is making when Luke hands her the blaster on the retracted lightbridge platform. Keep those sounding like laser blasts. We know Leia's doing the shooting. The audience has eyes.

When the Falcon first approaches Yavin, in addition to its landing scene redone well for the SE, during its approach they should show the ship coming through the clouds and skimming the surfaces of the Massassi Temples. Similar to the E2 approach scene for the Senator's ship.

WHAT NOT TO DO:

Don't add any lines or speech for Bail Organa. Jimmy Smits is not a star in A New Hope. Write something wonderful for him to do in Episode 3. While this idea is the lesser of the 2 evil changes (the other being in ROTJ with Padme) we don't really need it if E3 gives us enough of an idea of what makes Alderaan tick so that we actually care about it. (but I always cared because my thoughts were on Leia - but that is how it should be).


I'll get to Empire and Jedi in a little while.

Empire's nearly perfect in the Special Editions, with little do improve or change on it.

Magic-Middle
05-29-2002, 04:06 PM
I hope they do not alter the original trilogy movies any more than they already have. Especially if it alters the stories ore brings back people that have been portrayed as dead during all the movies. Imagine if Padme came back in ROTJ - how do you explain that, what happened to her since then - it just kills the continuity in my opinion.

Besides, I thought the changes the first time around in 96/97 were not anything overly special. Those are the reasons I vote for no changes.

Tycho
05-29-2002, 04:25 PM
The Empire Strikes Back Special Edition

The good:

The wampa scene
Slave- One amongst the Imperial wreckage dump
The approach to Cloud City
The interiors expanded on Cloud City
Vader boarding his shuttle
The shuttles approach (not docking!) to the Executer


The Bad

The line change from [to Artoo] "You were lucky you don't taste very good" to "You were lucky to get out of there."

The line change of Darth Vader's from "Bring my ship" to the totally out of character "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival." Anakin is a practical 'get things done' kind of guy. I seriously doubt he'd like stormtroopers standing in the docking bay like it was a parade ground in his honor. All he cares about is getting the Falcon. It's Piett and the other nervous officers that have to greet their Lord with ceremony because it's expected. If Vader had any orders for the Executer, it would be to "send for Piett! Tell him I want that ship!" (meaning the Falcon or his throat crushed for just one stupid question!) The 'enemy' is getting away with his son. Parade ground preparations are not practical during crisis situations as this was for the Empire.

Luke's scream - his silence was more effective in conveying what he thought could have been his last act of rebellion. Cut the scream!


The changes they could do:

extend the approach of the Falcon into Cloud City for just two more shots:
1) the Falcon cutting through the clouds like the Senator's ship does in E2.
2) the Falcon's entrance into the airspace over anything artificially constructed on Cloud City (in other words, the exact transition from nothing but tibanna gas to the first indication of durasteel)
Maybe a 3rd shot of the Falcon between buildings.

Fix what I said was bad above.




Changes they should NOT make:

Nothing I've heard of is being done to Empire at all. It's the best of the 3 with its special edition as well as its original run.

die-jarjar-die
05-29-2002, 04:31 PM
i voted yes.. IMO I think GL does need to tie the 2 trilogies together a bit better.....I like the idea of seeing Bail Organa on Alderaan just before the Death Star destroys it... hopefully they'll include Jar Jar in that scene too ;). I totally agree that Greedo's shooting first should be returned to its original state, it just doesnt work, it looks awful & really turns Han into a total ***** as opposed to the ultra cool, no nonsense character he was in Eps 4 & 5.

I also agree that the Jabba scene should be redone, it was shockingly bad even by ILM standards!

If hes going to include PT characters in the "new" versions then I completely agree that they need to remove the old Emperor in ESB & replace him with Ian McDiarmid....that would provide better continuity! Whilst they're at it they can damn well put my favourite line of ESB back in! When I 1st saw ESB Vaders "Bring my shuttle" line sent as many shivers down my spine as the immortal "No Luke I am your father". It continued to do so until the SE when that ******** "Alert my star Destroyer blah blah blah blah". I was sooo angry! Its not as though they even went to the trouble of making it sound like Vader! RUBBISH!!!! Reinsert that old line..it still makes sense even with the newer footage of Vaders shuttle docking with the Executor!

As for the proposed insertion of Padme into ROTJ.......well.....thats a tough one..If its handled well then I'm all for it actually its difficult to judge whether it will be cool or not without seeing it. I was completely against everseeing Yoda fight & was immensely surprised with the finished result in AOTC..so you never know it might be alright! I've been thinking about where the inclusion would be...after reading all the posts on the subject IMO I think it will be the flashback sequence...whether its between Luke & Leia or whilst Vader is watchin Luke get zapped..who knows? IMO its the only real option...How on Earth r they gonna have a Skywalker family reunion? Just digitally niset Padme in with a digitally created Luke & Leia? Give me a frickin break! that sucks! The hologram bit is cheezy too.....Oh well im sure we'll find out soon enough!

Jon
05-29-2002, 04:54 PM
personally, I like the idea of adding footage to the classic trilogy. I think it would be great. I have the classic release & the special edition on VHS, and as long as they release the DVD's in their classical, Special Edition and 3.0 versions they will cater to everyone. And this shouldn't really even be a question. Think of the money Lucas will make off of this idea. It will happen, I'm certain in my opinion.

Darth Grifter
05-29-2002, 05:13 PM
It is slightly disturbing that there is such a huge debate over adding new scenes into the OT when there is still an episode left. Yes, while there is only one episode left and still a lot to cover, there is another movie coming that might answer a lot of questions. I don't agree with adding new "flashback" scenes that involve the characters from the prequels...I mean, maybe we should add a flashback of Anakin kissing Padme while Leia is kissing Han...To this I would say emphatically, NO!

However, adding a scene of an aged Jimmy Smitts watching the Deathstar approach would be cool, and maybe touching up the glaring blue-screen work (reminiscent of Clash of the Titans) in ESB and ROTJ would be cool. I could see how these would close some miniscule gaps in the storyline.

I would like to emphasize, though, that this is George's creation and he can do whatever he would like to them. He knows best. We as fans have a tiny voice and whatever additions get made or not made is ultimately up to him. I would like to think that everyone hasn't lost faith in the creative abilities of a man who has brought 5 movies into the world so far that we all continue to watch over and over again, and everytime a new release hits the theaters we are all willing to pay 8-10 dollars a pop to go and watch them 4 or 5 times in one weekend. There is something that draws us to Star Wars, imagination. Yes, we are aloud to use our own and fill in the blanks, however, George Lucas is able to use his own to create this story, this epic that we love.

If it is his vision to wait until things can be done "right," then it is his vision. I will be the first one in line when whatever version of the OT comes out on DVD because I personally can't wait to see everything. I loved the origianl OT and I loved the SE (with 1 or 2 exceptions) and I'm sure that I will love any CG-enhanced-characters-added version that will come out at a later date.

Rage subsiding, rant over...

Darth Grifter
05-29-2002, 05:16 PM
Doesn't Yoda tell Padme in the beginning of AOTC that "the force is strong with you." when he sees her enter alive into the Chancellor's office...would this mean that Padme too would be able to appear as a force ghost in ROTJ? I don't know, I'm just making a statement.

stillakid
05-29-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Darth Grifter
He knows best.

:confused:

Hasbro'sBountyHunter
05-29-2002, 06:01 PM
I think George Lucas should alter the classic trilogy considering the fact that he wants it to be his "DEFINATIVE VISION" of the Star Wars Trilogy.

Grif
05-29-2002, 06:13 PM
Why just put new scenes with prequel characters? I think he should add a few extras with OT things. Maybe a TIE Defender or something like that being tested.

plo koon 200
05-29-2002, 08:43 PM
As a writer I voted yes. I think by adding more scenes he will make the films better. I thnk Padme will be shown as a flashback, not as a ghost.

plo koon 200
05-29-2002, 08:44 PM
Sorry if anyone mentioned the flashback thing earlier. I've only read the first few replies so far.

JediTricks
05-29-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by jeffonthego
At first, I was hesitant (now as with Special Edition of original trilogy). But really, movies aren't gospel, if the author wants to rewrite (as one might for a new edition of a book), then why not! Plus, I trust Lucas' sense of the story arc, and am sure that changes would add value to the story.

However, what does alarm me, is that unlike books which stick around for ever, as technology changes, earlier versions of movies can become quite hard to find. For instance, at my local Blockbuster you can't rent original versions of the first trilogy. This isn't good, because sometimes you want to just watch a movie as it appears. One day people will want to see what a pioneer 1977 sci-fi movie looked like (without late 20th c or early 21st c. added scenes/innovations).

What calms this worry of mine is that DVD and digital technology should allow for pleasing everyone. My stipulation is all non-original scenes (ie, non 1977, 1980, 1983) should be programmed as their own "chapters" on DVDs, with an easy option for viewers to select "original movie", "special edition", "2003? version", etc.

Wouldn't this please everyone?
Jeff, while it would please almost everybody, Lucas has said that he DEFINITELY will not put the originals (you know, the films that for 20 years were what turned SW from mere cinematic distraction into modern myth) on DVD, only the special editions. It's too bad that Lucas is dead set against this, because it really would show the evolution of how his thinking has changed as well as give an accurate explanation to future generations as to how Star Wars (ANH specifically) became such a cultural icon.

That said, if I'm given the choice between even more changes or not - I choose "not". If Lucas, whose tastes have been constantly changing ever since he first made SW, wants to keep changing the films every few years, the magic of myth will slowly erode. Would The Odyssey be as famous a myth if every 10 years the story was altered here and there? After a while, the we might have Odysseus being kept from his beloved Penelope simply because he had a broken compass simply because "focus groups show that tastes have changed and people no longer believe in the Greek gods".

This opens the door for situations like if, in 10 years, Lucas - drunk with the power and knowledge that he has so much control - goes into a "Howard Hughes" phase and decides to change the original trilogy again to fit the look of the prequels because the hairstyles look so dated: so he digitally replaces every character's hair. Or what if he doesn't feel he properly bridged the gap between the look of the vehicles between Eps 3 and 4 so he changes all the X-wings into Jedi Starfighters or the Millennium Falcon into a chrome version of the Tantive IV.

Jeff, you've made an excellent point about the original versions disappearing. The original point of the Special Editions was to make sure that the 3 Star Wars films wouldn't deteriorate any further so they could be kept for posterity. I feel that the originals need to be kept as they were seen MOST (you know, that dull period between 1977 and 1997 where billions of rentals and TV airings showed the same versions where Greedo never fires and Luke gives himself freely to death rather than the Dark Side), even if Lucas accepts the Special Editions or these new "Super Special Editions" as the way Star Wars will be from now on, he should continue to offer the public a REAL view of what they were instead of trying to change history.

plasticfetish
05-30-2002, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by BespinLobot
As a member of the film comunity, it was once said to me that "No film is ever finished, it is merely abandoned."

This quote has been bugging me for a while now ... and now I think I realize why. I don't think the point was supposed to be that every film is open to future tinkering and that there is no "finished" when it comes to film. I think the meaning is ... at some point you have to realize that you have gotten as close to perfect as is possible, given the circumstances, and at that point you are done.

In art school (yeah, yeah ... not that I dare claim that film is an art form) a drawing professor once snapped at me because I had a habit of going back over my lines and correcting what I had done to excess. "Just throw it down, trust the moment and move on."

I think the point is, these films were finished when they were originally released in the theaters. If you change them ... you're not "enhancing" you're making a different film. I honestly don't like these "new" films more than the original ones. In many cases I seriously dislike them. I've read a few comments from people saying that it's silly to "live in the past" and that it's right to move forward as new technology develops or as new takes on the story come to mind. Well ... let's face it ... these movies were made a few decades ago. We ARE all living in the past to some extent ... and many of the changes or modifications just seem like a way for Lucas to bend to the will of his ever evolving audience.

On that note ... I'm a little frustrated that my 4 year old son may never get to enjoy the original version of these films. The OT films are full of silly dialogue and from today's perspective crude special effects ... but THOSE are the films that made history. Everything else is just Lucas cashing in on new sources of revenue. I'm starting to see AOTC similarly as a huge way of cashing in on his new audience. Trying to please all of the people all of the time, not really taking any risks and hopefully being a wise businessman in the end with the whole re-fabricated series.

(which is fine ... I'm no critic of business ... but at that point the films certainly aren't "art" anymore, they're just a new way to sell toys and video games. )

Yeah, I think there is a such thing a being finished with a film. You put it in the can (or hard drive) ... you stick your name in the credits and it's over. It's strength is measured by how well it holds up over time. If these movies need to be remade over and over again ... then maybe they aren't worth our attention in the long run.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by plasticfetish


This quote has been bugging me for a while now ... and now I think I realize why. I don't think the point was supposed to be that every film is open to future tinkering and that there is no "finished" when it comes to film. I think the meaning is ... at some point you have to realize that you have gotten as close to perfect as is possible, given the circumstances, and at that point you are done.

In art school (yeah, yeah ... not that I dare claim that film is an art form) a drawing professor once snapped at me because I had a habit of going back over my lines and correcting what I had done to excess. "Just throw it down, trust the moment and move on."

I think the point is, these films were finished when they were originally released in the theaters. If you change them ... you're not "enhancing" you're making a different film. I honestly don't like these "new" films more than the original ones. In many cases I seriously dislike them. I've read a few comments from people saying that it's silly to "live in the past" and that it's right to move forward as new technology develops or as new takes on the story come to mind. Well ... let's face it ... these movies were made a few decades ago. We ARE all living in the past to some extent ... and many of the changes or modifications just seem like a way for Lucas to bend to the will of his ever evolving audience.

On that note ... I'm a little frustrated that my 4 year old son may never get to enjoy the original version of these films. The OT films are full of silly dialogue and from today's perspective crude special effects ... but THOSE are the films that made history. Everything else is just Lucas cashing in on new sources of revenue. I'm starting to see AOTC similarly as a huge way of cashing in on his new audience. Trying to please all of the people all of the time, not really taking any risks and hopefully being a wise businessman in the end with the whole re-fabricated series.

(which is fine ... I'm no critic of business ... but at that point the films certainly aren't "art" anymore, they're just a new way to sell toys and video games. )

Yeah, I think there is a such thing a being finished with a film. You put it in the can (or hard drive) ... you stick your name in the credits and it's over. It's strength is measured by how well it holds up over time. If these movies need to be remade over and over again ... then maybe they aren't worth our attention in the long run.

I like what you've said a lot and it would be difficult for anyone to disagree with any of it, though I'm certain that many will try. :)

aikman
05-30-2002, 03:11 PM
Would it be interesting to see them reworked, sure

Will I buy it if its reworked, sure
Will I buy it if its just the original, sure
Will I buy it if its just the special edition, sure

Which do i prefer? Niether, The originals are fine, the SE's are also fine. I do have issues with them (GREEDO!) but they look and sound better.
GL said it himself, its a saga that will never be finished in his mind.
Would I like it if JAR JAR showed up in EP4? Heck no, would i watch it, sure.

He is going to do what he wants anyway, they are his, if you dont like things he his doing , just dont get any of the new stuff.

The reason we are into his movies is because we are fans of his work, if u dont want to be a fan anymore thats fine, dont complain about it.

With that said: he needs ot put all the different versions on dvd.
I really dont know why this hasnt happened yet really.
That was the reason to have the SE's in the first place.

Would the OT look crappy on dvd, maybe, do I still want it, you bet.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by aikman
With that said: he needs ot put all the different versions on dvd.
I really dont know why this hasnt happened yet really.
That was the reason to have the SE's in the first place.



If there was a viable way for Lucas to recall all the original versions of his movies, I have no doubt whatsoever that he'd do it. No matter how much people say they prefer one version over another, to him the definitive version will be the one he eventually release on DVD. This means that the SE are not the end of the story as far as the OT goes. In the end, he doesn't give a rat's a** what anyone thinks, just so long as it's his way. It's not about money. He doesn't need any more of that. He's exercising his power. That's all.

Darth Grifter
05-30-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by stillakid

In the end, he doesn't give a rat's a** what anyone thinks, just so long as it's his way. It's not about money. He doesn't need any more of that. He's exercising his power. That's all.

:mad: I feel that this is a valid point HOWEVER, it does neglect the point of view that he is the creator and we are just pee-ons with opinions...

i fully agree with aikman:


Originally posted by aikman

He is going to do what he wants anyway, they are his, if you dont like things he his doing , just dont get any of the new stuff.

If you don't like the idea of an artist having free liberty over his own work, being able to do with it what they like, when they like...the solution to your problem is simple, just don't buy their art (or in this case, watch the movies)...

Will I buy the DVD's no matter what version they are? Of course. Why? Because I love Star Wars and I RESPECT their creator.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Darth Grifter


:mad: I feel that this is a valid point HOWEVER, it does neglect the point of view that he is the creator and we are just pee-ons with opinions...

i fully agree with aikman:



If you don't like the idea of an artist having free liberty over his own work, being able to do with it what they like, when they like...the solution to your problem is simple, just don't buy their art (or in this case, watch the movies)...

Will I buy the DVD's no matter what version they are? Of course. Why? Because I love Star Wars and I RESPECT their creator.


Just curious, as an obvious hypothetical question, if George decided tomorrow to insert an animated dancing chicken into the bottom right corner of every Star Wars film, would you still RESPECT him and buy the new improved product?

darthvyn
05-30-2002, 05:49 PM
i think that when they are all on dvd, they should be done the way T2 was, you can watch the original theatrical release, or the special editions, in whole, instead of in a separate reel of outtakes. we know the tech is there, they should use it...

DarthBrandon
05-30-2002, 05:56 PM
Yes, I think that they should bridge the series together, but do it in a tastefull manner, so that they do not ruin them. Oh what am I saying it's George's movie, he's going to do what he wants anyways.

JediTricks
05-30-2002, 10:06 PM
Plasticfetish, that was a very wise, insightful post you made, I wish I was that articulate.

stillakid
05-30-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by plasticfetish


This quote has been bugging me for a while now ... and now I think I realize why. I don't think the point was supposed to be that every film is open to future tinkering and that there is no "finished" when it comes to film. I think the meaning is ... at some point you have to realize that you have gotten as close to perfect as is possible, given the circumstances, and at that point you are done.

In art school (yeah, yeah ... not that I dare claim that film is an art form) a drawing professor once snapped at me because I had a habit of going back over my lines and correcting what I had done to excess. "Just throw it down, trust the moment and move on."

I think the point is, these films were finished when they were originally released in the theaters. If you change them ... you're not "enhancing" you're making a different film. I honestly don't like these "new" films more than the original ones. In many cases I seriously dislike them. I've read a few comments from people saying that it's silly to "live in the past" and that it's right to move forward as new technology develops or as new takes on the story come to mind. Well ... let's face it ... these movies were made a few decades ago. We ARE all living in the past to some extent ... and many of the changes or modifications just seem like a way for Lucas to bend to the will of his ever evolving audience.

On that note ... I'm a little frustrated that my 4 year old son may never get to enjoy the original version of these films. The OT films are full of silly dialogue and from today's perspective crude special effects ... but THOSE are the films that made history. Everything else is just Lucas cashing in on new sources of revenue. I'm starting to see AOTC similarly as a huge way of cashing in on his new audience. Trying to please all of the people all of the time, not really taking any risks and hopefully being a wise businessman in the end with the whole re-fabricated series.

(which is fine ... I'm no critic of business ... but at that point the films certainly aren't "art" anymore, they're just a new way to sell toys and video games. )

Yeah, I think there is a such thing a being finished with a film. You put it in the can (or hard drive) ... you stick your name in the credits and it's over. It's strength is measured by how well it holds up over time. If these movies need to be remade over and over again ... then maybe they aren't worth our attention in the long run.


I got to thinking about this as well. For all of those people out there suggesting that Lucas should be able to continually alter the films as he sees fit, how would you feel if, say, you bought a painting by a living artist. You hang it on your wall. You love it. Your guests love it. It's great just the way it is.

But one day, a couple years down the road, there is a knock on your door. The artist is back with his palette in hand. "I just got some new colors that weren't available to me back then," he says. "I just need to do some touch-ups."

How would you react to this situation?

Darth Grifter
05-31-2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by stillakid


For all of those people out there suggesting that Lucas should be able to continually alter the films as he sees fit, how would you feel if, say, you bought a painting by a living artist. You hang it on your wall. You love it. Your guests love it. It's great just the way it is.

But one day, a couple years down the road, there is a knock on your door. The artist is back with his palette in hand. "I just got some new colors that weren't available to me back then," he says. "I just need to do some touch-ups."

How would you react to this situation?

Again, a valid point, however, a piece of art is a smidge different than a movie. With a piece of art, you purchase it and it becomes yours; with a movie, you purchase a ticket, and the right to view the movie is yours, the movie itself is not.

And to the last point about the dancing chicken, no I wouldn't buy it because it would never happen...Lucas is a SMART MAN...he is smart enough to lure us all in with this series and pull dollars continually out of our pockets...he would never do something as idiotic as that.

I would just like to make it clear that I voted YES. I think that some scenes are valid: Bail Organa on Alderan, a touched up Emperor in ESB, maybe some more fly throughs or space sequences here or there. I would not be in favor of the moronic placement of a "chicken in the bottom right corner" or of redoing Yoda into CG or adding Padme into the force spirits. In the end, I am content with knowing that it isn't up to me, and it isn't up to anyone else except one man...Lucas.

bigbarada
05-31-2002, 12:49 AM
I don't think that is a valid comparison Stillakid. We're not talking about GL coming to our houses and snatching up all of our VHS copies of the OT. When you buy an original piece of art, it becomes yours and the artist no longer has any right to change it. If you buy prints or copies of that art and the artist retains the original then he/she can change it. You'll still have your print.

These movies don't belong to us, they still belong to GL since he made sure to keep all rights to them. What we pay for are tickets to see the movie, COPIES of the movie, and merchandise based on the movie. None of us has ever bought the rights to the movie, nor could we afford it since it is not for sale.

I've heard the argument that GL has become a greedy money grubbing business man. I don't believe that GL is simply using the Prequels as a money-making scheme. If he were, why finance them with his own money? Why put in designs that translate so poorly to toys (podracers, chromed over starships, 17 Padme outfits in one film)?

The "Lucas is just cashing in on merchandising" complaint has existed since the beginning, and was a huge criticism when ROTJ came out with the oh-so-marketable Ewoks. If GL wanted to cash in on the DVD's then he would have no problem with releasing basic non-SE DVDs, deluxe non-SE DVDs, basic SE DVDs and deluxe SE DVDs. Because he knows many fans would buy every set. Thus I don't see the "cash-in" argument as a valid one.

However, stillakid might have a point when he says it is all about power and control. In Lucas' defense though, if I had billions of dollars to my name, I would love to make a big budget movie MY WAY and not let anyone else interfere. Lucas doesn't really need us anymore at this point, because even if all SW fans managed to agree long enough to stage a boycott, he would still make millions off of his movies. So right now this is all about him. He could care less if we feel betrayed or that our childhood is being raped (I don't feel that way, but those criticisms do exist).

Besides, I'm pretty sure that some people have brought up fan complaints to Lucas that go something like, "Mr. Lucas, many of the fans really hate this idea." To which Lucas probably replies, "Well, the fans hate everything anyway, so why should I worry about this one thing?"

I think the proliferance of negativity on the internet has pretty much negated all fan opinions in Lucas' mind. I know I feel the same way about many "fans" who don't seem to actually like anything about the saga. I just wish GL would realize that there are many of us here who really appreciate what he is doing and are thankful that he is bringing Star Wars back.

Sure I'm a little disappointed that we won't be seeing the non-SE DVDs; but there is really nothing I can do about it so why get angry over something I have no control over? Star Wars is not so much a part of my life that I will never get over it.

Darth Grifter
05-31-2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada

I think the proliferance of negativity on the internet has pretty much negated all fan opinions in Lucas' mind. I know I feel the same way about many "fans" who don't seem to actually like anything about the saga. I just wish GL would realize that there are many of us here who really appreciate what he is doing and are thankful that he is bringing Star Wars back.

Sure I'm a little disappointed that we won't be seeing the non-SE DVDs; but there is really nothing I can do about it so why get angry over something I have no control over? Star Wars is not so much a part of my life that I will never get over it.

WOW!!! You said everything that I wanted to say. This last part of your statement is so true. That is why this will be my last post on this subject because I think we are "beating a dead bantha" to coin a phrase.

I just wanted to tell you thank you for making me feel like not such a big "angry loner."

bigbarada
05-31-2002, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Darth Grifter


WOW!!! You said everything that I wanted to say. This last part of your statement is so true. That is why this will be my last post on this subject because I think we are "beating a dead bantha" to coin a phrase.

I just wanted to tell you thank you for making me feel like not such a big "angry loner."

Thanks, I'm glad you agree.:)

Now I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.;)

stillakid
05-31-2002, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Darth Grifter


And to the last point about the dancing chicken, no I wouldn't buy it because it would never happen...Lucas is a SMART MAN...he is smart enough to lure us all in with this series and pull dollars continually out of our pockets...he would never do something as idiotic as that.



Yes, I understand that it is a silly hypothetical, but the question is valid. Why? Because to some of us, some of his decisions are just as ridiculous as adding a dancing chicken to the screen. There is no difference in my mind b/n something so ludicrous and his altering the established continuity. Both are unnecessary and unjust.

You said that you wouldn't buy it, but only said that you wouldn't because it wouldn't happen. But what if he DID do it? If he did add a dancing chicken, then that dancing chicken would then become a valid element of Star Wars, like it or not.

So the question is still out there and remains unanswered. If George added a dancing chicken, essentially including it into Star Wars Canon, would you still RESPECT him and buy the product? Afterall, it's his movie and anything he does to it is his decision. :confused:

stillakid
05-31-2002, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
I don't think that is a valid comparison Stillakid. We're not talking about GL coming to our houses and snatching up all of our VHS copies of the OT. When you buy an original piece of art, it becomes yours and the artist no longer has any right to change it. If you buy prints or copies of that art and the artist retains the original then he/she can change it. You'll still have your print.

These movies don't belong to us, they still belong to GL since he made sure to keep all rights to them. What we pay for are tickets to see the movie, COPIES of the movie, and merchandise based on the movie. None of us has ever bought the rights to the movie, nor could we afford it since it is not for sale.



Hmm. Perhaps you're right. But aside from the technicalities of the example, I wasn't really speaking to the "rights" of the artist so much as the principle of the thing. It's not a perfect example, as you've pointed out, but I'd still like to know how people would feel if the work of art that they've grown to love is suddenly altered by the artist, no matter who owns it. Why is everyone so eager to throw support to Lucas based solely on his "rights" to change everything? I know that he has the "right" to do it. But I think that he's gone wayyyyy over the line already and dipping into the OT established storyline even more will be an even worse infringement.

Having said that, I, and a thousand other hopeful filmmakers, wish I was in his shoes with that kind of independent control. :) If my initial story was fundamentally flawed, I could foresee trying to change it post-release, however the OT wasn't flawed, at least in terms of logical continuity.

2-1B
05-31-2002, 02:08 AM
Dancing chicken? I thought he did that in AOTC with Cgi-3PO flopping around the droid factory. :D

Hmmm, are we under the assumption that the ONLY DVD set available would include the chicken?
In that case, I would buy the dancing chicken DVD editions if they contained loads of extra features that I want to see. And if I decide I cannot stomach the chicken, I will purchase illegal bootleg DVDs of both the Classic editions and the Special Editions.

But if it's a "barebones" Chicken Edition DVD release, I'll pass. :)

I'm also not convinced by the hypothetical "painter shows up at your house" situation. If George showed up to edit my classic and special edition trilogies (more likely he would send Ricky to do it) I would be horrified. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about future releases.

Couldn't one argue that the classics should never see a DVD release? Since they are pure and were the films a generation grew up on (mainly via VHS) shouldn't they be left to that arena and let the wonderful digital revolution carry Star Wars versions 2 and 3 into the future?
Don't take me as serious there, I'm just exploring . . . :D

JediTricks
05-31-2002, 02:39 AM
Please read my post #70 (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=96883#post96883) and tell me what you think. While not as wise as PlasticFetish's post, I wanted to get a little feedback on what I was saying.


Also, I don't like the idea of some people treating fans who don't like a facet of the Star Wars saga as "non-fans" simply because they don't see EVERYTHING as rosey as you do. That's the type of stereotyping that has led to such unhappy problems in other sections of the forums, and in the Star Wars hobby in general. If these people didn't love at least a part of the Star Wars experience, they wouldn't bother to post on the forums and they wouldn't take the time to explain what they do and/or don't like. You shouldn't judge a person based on a handful of posts, even if they seem to form some sort of pattern - we all need to stop putting each other into "friend or foe" categories and start treating each other as fans with insights we can either choose to accept or ignore as the individual situations and our opinions warrant.

bigbarada
05-31-2002, 03:17 AM
Touching on a few comments made, I've read everything and if I don't comment it doesn't mean that I am dismissing the arguments. As stillakid likes to think that lack of an immediate reply means that he has a valid point.:p:)

Dancing chicken? Ummm, never happen; BUT if it did happen then I would not subscribe to Lucas' new vision. I really don't have a problem with any of the SE changes except for the limited technology used to make them. If Greedo firing first is redone to look more convincing then I can accept it, although that is the only change that I am not overjoyed with. Luke screaming? I always wondered as a kid why he didn't scream as he fell, and now the non-SE scene seems oddly silent. I think it adds to his attempted suicide, in that he was frightened but did it anyway; but that's just me.

I accept the changes because I remember hearing Lucas lamenting the lack of technology and inability to make the movies he wants. As an illustrator, I can understand his position. I have some drawings that I love so much that I just can't leave them alone. They usually end up becoming overworked abominations though since I am always changing them and erasing this line and redrawing it and erasing it and redrawing it and....well you get the idea. So I can empathize with GL's longing to make the OT perfect. I just hope that he knows when to stop changing the OT. And I do think that at least GL sees the movies as flawed, since they fall far short of his original vision for the saga. As for the PT, I'm glad that he finally has a chance to make the movies he always wanted to make.

JT, I read your post and thought you expressed your point of view very well. I can also see it from the other side of the coin, the fans who are horrified by what might become of their beloved trilogy. I really have nothing to say without reiterating my previous statements. I hope that, in the end, the final result is something we all can live with.

I think the Hugh Heffner comparison is something of a "slippery slope." Just because GL is exercising his power doesn't mean that he will fall into that kind of trap. I trust his good sense right now and as long as I don't see a dancing chicken, I will continue to trust it.

At worst, I would say that many fans seem to have overestimated Star Wars' impact on our culture. Those seem to be the people who are the most disappointed with the PT. I don't really recall the OT having that big of an impact on my life, at least not the movies; but the toys were always a huge part of the adventure. I think I actually preferred the toys to the movies for most of my life. The only thing that really struck me from the movies was Han getting frozen and the Hoth Battle. I really couldn't have cared less who whiny Luke's dad was. It wasn't until I saw TPM that I became a "hardcore" Star Wars fan (seeing a movie that I considered great, taking such a beating was my prime motivation for posting on these boards in the beginning). Sure the OT influenced pop culture but to the average person on the street it is just the source of several different catch phrases, some memorable characters and a cool toy line. Not the pop-culture icon that the media would have us believe.

That's the way I see it.

plasticfetish
05-31-2002, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Dancing chicken? I thought he did that in AOTC with Cgi-3PO flopping around the droid factory. :D

Hmmm, are we under the assumption that the ONLY DVD set available would include the chicken?
In that case, I would buy the dancing chicken DVD editions if they contained loads of extra features that I want to see. And if I decide I cannot stomach the chicken, I will purchase illegal bootleg DVDs of both the Classic editions and the Special Editions.

But if it's a "barebones" Chicken Edition DVD release, I'll pass. :)

Oh man ... between this and the original dancing chicken post (thank you stillakid, I nearly spit/drooled water on my monitor) I have been laughing all day long. Honestly ... if he added a dancing chicken ... I would be blown away by how "cutting edge" something like that would be. Not only would I buy the DVD ... but, I would buy 2 of all 5 versions of the action figure.



"When you buy an original piece of art, it becomes yours and the artist no longer has any right to change it. If you buy prints or copies of that art and the artist retains the original then he/she can change it. You'll still have your print." -bigbarada

No other shoe to drop ... essentially that is true ... the artist generally retains final rights to his work. But, say (let's hope this makes sense) you make a painting, you sell it for a very large sum of money to a person that buys it because they understand that they have purchased a unique and special piece of art that you have created. A one of a kind as it were.
But then ... a few years later you paint the same exact painting, you fiddle with the colors a little and then give it the same name and before you sell it for more money to someone else ... you announce that the old one was inferior and that this one is best.
But you're the artist ... so go for it!
Well ... what if you end up doing this exact same thing over and over again ... each time undermining the value of the last version? What ends up happening?

Well, if you're not Andy Warhol ... either none of your paintings will have any value, because you have ruined your reputation, or just the first and most unique painting will have value.

Now ... back to the art in question ... I suppose it wouldn't be such a big deal if it hadn't seemed like the changes made so far were faddish, a little premature and sometimes unnecessary.
(I'm still wondering WHAT that dark blob floating next to the emperors face IS during the big final scene in JEDI. That has bugged me for soooo long ... but it's still there. Why not get rid of THAT.) I think, George Lucas is MOST brilliant BECAUSE he has created a little empire (I grew up in MARIN, we loved/love having him in the county ... I lived a few miles from the ranch and used to ride my bike over while they were building it) and he is able to fund his own movies. The guy is able to do virtually anything he wants, as long as it pays off in the end. He can build a studio in the Presidio, he can employ thousands of talented people all over the world, he can do a heck of a lot more than I can that's for sure.

I dunno ... maybe I'm just concerned that if he changes the movies too much, my old Star Wars cards wont make any sense.
(joke.)

Tycho
05-31-2002, 06:06 AM
I wanted to critique the changes in ROTJ for you so I came back to do this. I can't add much to some of the other really well-thought out, quality things that have been said here.

However, I do request it be BBQ chicken - that's my favorite. But if the idea was really on the rotissourie, I might be both sweet and sour on it. The idea could be Kung-Pau funny, or it might just be a blackened pair of wings on something over-broiled. So I stand by my taste for the original special recipe, though in my posts I do request a few, specific extra seasonings.

Now on to RETURN OF THE JEDI: the special edition.

THE GOOD

I actually now have gotten to like the Jedi Rocks sequence, moreso because of all the characters added in, than I like the song better than Lapti Nek. The original song rocked, but it does lack lines for the background vocalists and Joh Yowza, so that's why Lapti Nek doesn't serve the scene so well anymore.

The Banthas were fine.

Oola in the rancor pit was a nice extra touch.

The Sarlaac pit was modified really well.

John Williams' score for the end celebration is now one of my favorite Star Wars tunes. Too bad it is so illusive in the whole saga that you only hear it here.

The end sequence on Bespin, Tatooine, and Coruscant was awesome!

Seeing Wedge honored too was way too cool!

THE BAD:

Oola looks like she quite clearly sweared something at Jabba right before he dropped her. She seems to say "But I'm a princess" almost - in Huttese of course, and then says the first thing that comes to your mind as a closing argument right before you'd shoot someone. That's said in Huttese too, but it appears to be a different take of Oola, for that old scene, and I'm not sure it was redone (with the Femi Taylor again, only 17 years later) or if it is just another old take, but both the video and the original audiotrack were much more tasteful in my opinion, due to it being more realistic, even if it is less P.C. I don't think they had to worry about reshooting all of Oola's scenes either. That would be a waste. To Femi's credit, I saw her at the Celebration and she looks as good as she did 17 years ago. She's barely aging!
So using the original take would've been better.


WHAT I'D CHANGE:

aside from covering 'the bad,' I'd concentrate on the Battle of Endor here for a while.

First the Ewoks. I do like the Ewoks. But when Teebo blows the war party horn to signal the attack, I'd do one arial shot and show the Ewok positions relative to the Stormtroopers'. Let's say the Emperor's "Legion" of his best troops down there consisted of about the 40 or so we *might* be able to count in the narrow shots taken around Han and Leia as the prisoners are marched out of the bunker entrance. The arial shot would show maybe 200 Ewoks completely surrounding the Imperial positions, sort of just emerging from their camaouflage. If we got an idea of the sheer numbers of Ewoks the whole native ecology of the planet could throw at the Imperials, it would get to be more believeable.

Next, the space battle. ROTJ is by far the best space battle we've seen in a SW movie - uh...or any movie for that matter! But ANH gives it a run for its money. This is an idea I saw another forum member post a while ago, and I appologize for not remembering who it was. But we needed more pilots we cared about in ROTJ.
More chatter between the other pilots possibly - if they were character pilots. These shots could include a new actor or stand-in for Hobbie and Janson, and if they even went EU with it, Tycho Celcu of course (but in an A-wing in ROTJ). If they respect the continuity, these pilots can't die, but their wingmen could - protecting them, furthering the impact of the danger they were in, as you probably could've guessed that Wedge and Lando weren't going to die, in spite of rumors of a cut of Jedi where Lando supposedly doesn't make it. (or it was thought of for the script - more tragedy and sacrafice, taken out because they wanted Jedi to end on an "up" and you already had the death of Anakin and a funeral pyre scene forthcoming in the picture at this time).

General Madine had an extra scene too. In the Star Wars Action Figure Archive by Steve Sansweet, they show images from the movies that are curiosities, as well as pictures of the figures. Obviously on the page showcasing Kenner's vintage Madine figure, they show Crix either shouting in triumph or yelling defiantly a Corellian Rebel Yell as something happens to the Corvette (blockade runner) he is commanding. Showing this ship in a fight with an Imperial frigate or another Star Destroyer, possibly even showing capital ships collide if General Madine orders a kamikaze and the escape pods jettison, and the blockade runner hammers into a Star Destroyer with her captain on board 'til the end would be more than an awesome spectacle added to Jedi.

Next- B-wings. Give us a B-wing pilot character and recreate the motion picture of that famous Ralph McQuarrie painting that shows the B-wings racing off to a safe distance after a Star Destroyer they fired into the belly of starts to blow up from within. I'd also like to see them dog fight a TIE Interceptor. Here's the opportunity to add just a few seconds of that.

The Emperor's Slug - as the black wiggly blotch on Ian's closeups was dubbed for Jedi. I don't remember the technical flub-up that caused that, but let's get rid of it as somebody here already said.

Oh, get rid of the matte lines around the Rancor and make it look right. They could CG a couple shots of the rancor if they make it exactly like the original, but this way make the creature move better than Ghostbuster's Stay-Puft Marshmellow Man.

WHAT NOT TO DO:

Don't add Padme, 50 years old and still alive. EU has a continuity because they aren't supposed to negate anything that will be in the films. In the EU continuity, the mother of the Jedi twins is dead. Padme is dead. Luke once looked for an alias she might've used: Nashira. It turned out to be a trap (and a false lead most likely). The EU and the movie continuity both assumed she was dead. Make it so.

Next Padme might appear as a ghost, thus saying to the audience that either she was Force-sensitive and could do what a Jedi Master could, (bogus!) or that the living Force-Senstive (that are trained) can see the spirits of the dead (Luke can therefore see the souls of those beyond the grave - which begs the question "Where's Biggs? Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru - and why isn't everyone that Kevin Smith's "Clerks" mentions who were innocent civilian contractors that died on the Death Star constantly harrassing him?

Padme might appear as a Hologram. That starts with "Dear Artoo. Don't show this to my son unless he's saved his father, or whatever." Or Luke might have it stored in R2 like a digital photo saved on our PCs. This might be kind of cool, but R2 is not a slide-projector, and I doubt Luke gave his little buddy a detailed account of what happened up on the Death Star, but at the least, he wouldn't have had time to do that yet. Maybe Luke carried a copy on a little thing like what Qui-Gon had to show Watto the Queen's ship? This might be OK. So obviously, she will be passed on, but Luke then kind of has a memory of her (from a certain point of view - though if I gave you a photo of someone you didn't know, you wouldn't really have a memory of them just because you have the photo). So anyway, Luke whips it out around the time he witnesses the ghosts. They appear to him to comfort him as he's thinking about his father and then undoubtedly his mother. He happens to have this and looks at her image, then the ghosts appear. It could easily be digitized, but maybe all they need is the holo of Padme and someone's hand with a black glove on it holding the holo-viewer.

I actually could live with that change. Hmmm. Surprised at myself for saying that, I am.

But anyway, that about wraps up what I have to say about ROTJ.

ANH has the most work that could be done to it, while ESB has the least (unless if you count TPM in there as well).

Pendo
05-31-2002, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
The Emperor's Slug - as the black wiggly blotch on Ian's closeups was dubbed for Jedi. I don't remember the technical flub-up that caused that, but let's get rid of it as somebody here already said.

The Emperor's slug is there because you could see where Ian had no make up on. They then blacked it out hoping it would look like a shadow, or part of his hood. I'd rather see no make up than a black splodge though! I was hoping that would be fixed for the SE but it wasn't :(.

PENDO!

stillakid
05-31-2002, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by bigbarada
Touching on a few comments made, I've read everything and if I don't comment it doesn't mean that I am dismissing the arguments. As stillakid likes to think that lack of an immediate reply means that he has a valid point.:p:)



My last post was worded that way because Grifter had signed off on the question without answering it. Of course I knew that others might want to respond but the question had been specifically directed to him. :)

stillakid
05-31-2002, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by plasticfetish


Oh man ... between this and the original dancing chicken post (thank you stillakid, I nearly spit/drooled water on my monitor) I have been laughing all day long. Honestly ... if he added a dancing chicken ... I would be blown away by how "cutting edge" something like that would be. Not only would I buy the DVD ... but, I would buy 2 of all 5 versions of the action figure.



I try to be entertaining and informative at the same time. More marketable that way. :)

stillakid
05-31-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Dancing chicken? I thought he did that in AOTC with Cgi-3PO flopping around the droid factory. :D

Hmmm, are we under the assumption that the ONLY DVD set available would include the chicken?
In that case, I would buy the dancing chicken DVD editions if they contained loads of extra features that I want to see. And if I decide I cannot stomach the chicken, I will purchase illegal bootleg DVDs of both the Classic editions and the Special Editions.

But if it's a "barebones" Chicken Edition DVD release, I'll pass. :)

I'm also not convinced by the hypothetical "painter shows up at your house" situation. If George showed up to edit my classic and special edition trilogies (more likely he would send Ricky to do it) I would be horrified. But that's not what we're discussing. We're talking about future releases.

Couldn't one argue that the classics should never see a DVD release? Since they are pure and were the films a generation grew up on (mainly via VHS) shouldn't they be left to that arena and let the wonderful digital revolution carry Star Wars versions 2 and 3 into the future?
Don't take me as serious there, I'm just exploring . . . :D


Thank you for that well thought out response. :)

Now, Grifter insinuated that the only way to RESPECT George Lucas, was to accept everything that he does to the saga no matter what it is. This is really the question I want answered: IF he did make that ridiculous dancing chicken version, would he (Grifter, and/or anyone else who supports his statement) still RESPECT Lucas and stand behind his alterations 100%? At what point do you draw that line and say enough is enough? :confused:

2-1B
05-31-2002, 01:01 PM
stillakid, I can't answer your question with any conviction. Of course, if the Dancing Chicken Editions came to fruition, I would draw the line, but for now I can only look back to the Special Editions and recognize the fact that I liked some additions, and didn't like other additions. So the question then becomes (for me, personally) "how much will I yield to George and his madness in exchange for a few changes that I do like?" Wow, I can't answer that right now. If the Special Editions would have been predominantly offensive to me, I would likely be sitting here firmly saying 'Don't add a thing, I don't want to see anything ruined'. I guess I'm just too intrigued to see what kind of tinkering he would do.

JT, there is no reason for the Classic Editions to not be released on DVD. I agree that while George sees the SE as the only version, box office receipts and video purchases suggest that a heck of a lot of people are satisified with the "first" final versions.
Yes, the films should be released as they were seen theatrically (as well as the SE versions).
I would have loved to see the trilogy released on DVD at least a year before TPM was released. I don't buy the argument that George would be accused of milking it for the money with multiple releases . . . had the films been released on DVD in '98, only to see release in '05 / '06, the 8 year wait in between is completely acceptable.

bigB, I can't believe you switched Hugh Heffner with Howard Hughes ! :D

bigbarada
05-31-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
bigB, I can't believe you switched Hugh Heffner with Howard Hughes ! :D

Oops!:o What's the difference?:confused:

Pendo, I've heard that the black blob on the Emperor's temple was were they put a tiny light bulb to add that extra eerie lighting to his face. It was supposedly covered up with basic composite techology of the day and really should have been fixed in the SEs.

Lord Tenebrous
05-31-2002, 11:30 PM
Okay, here's a list of all the potential additions for the ARCHIVAL EDITION:

Bail Organa is set to appear in both The Phantom Menace and in A New Hope. The Phantom Menace scenes will focus on Organa's senate scenes, that were originally filmed for Episode I, with Organa being portrayed by another actor before Jimmy Smits landed the role for Attack of the Clones. An older Bail Organa will also have some scenes prior to the Death Star's destruction of Alderaan in the revised Episode IV.

It is also believed that the Emperor will appear in some senate scenes in A New Hope, arguing with Bail Organa. Following this, will be a scene where Palpatine makes contact with Vader and Tarkin aboard the Death Star, approving plans to destroy Alderaan.

The Empire Strikes Back will also include a scene of a destroyed Jedi Temple on Coruscant before the Emperor's contact with Vader. A holographic photo of Qui-Gon is also believed to be in Kenobi's Homestead on Tatooine during the scenes in A New Hope.


SEMI-CONFIRMED CHANGES:


In a recent interview, John Williams announced that some changes are going to be made to aspects of the Original Trilogy soundtracks. The most notable change will be the inclusion of The Imperial March in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.

"I am thrilled to have the chance to go back to something I composed in 1977 and be able to make the entire saga continuous theme-wise." John Williams tells us. "Notably absent in the first movie is the Imperial March. Being able to insert that theme in the first movie will create a much stronger emotional flow throughout the Saga. After the release of Episode III, George will enhance the original trilogy with additional scenes and special effects, adding my adjustments to the score this will seamlesly branch the entire Star Wars Saga into one massive romantic space opera. I think something of this magnitude has never been done before."



And then the Natalie Portman in ROTJ stuff, which you can take as you will.

Tycho
06-01-2002, 12:05 AM
I'm not going to treat any of Tenebrous' post as if it were actually happening, just offer my opinion on whether I like each element as it was described to me.

Bail Organa may not appear in TPM, because Bail Antilles was the Senator 10 years prior to AOTC. They'd have to change Panaka's line as well when Padme asks who else is running for Chancellor. I don't think so. Organa might have only been an aide to Antilles, though he could have been a Representative.

I don't think Palpatine should be seen in ANH at all, and I like his first introduction in the classics being the hologram Vader speaks with on the Executer while in the asteroid belt (ESB). I don't think this version of the Emperor looks bad and it really doesn't need to be redone with Ian. I could be and I wouldn't complain, but it isn't necessary. Just to add that in. It looks like Ian to me. (even though I know it was not).

The hologram could be seen in ANH talking to Tarkin, but I don't like that. There isn't more footage of Peter Cushing that we know of, and Vader did not know they were authorized to destroy Alderaan until Tarkin told him. Now he might have known the Senate was desolved. Tarken said "I have just received word [from Vader] that the council has been dissolved permanently!"
With Peter Cushing being harder to insert in the movie doing something he did not 25 years ago, Vader and the Emperor would be easier since the actors are still alive. Go figure! You wonder if George had the foresight he'd make the prequels then (in Jedi) and that's why he cast such a young man (Ian in his 30's) to play the Emperor with heavy make-up, only to recast him twenty years later to bring back Palpatine in the prequels!

The fate of the Jedi Temple should be seen. Doing it this way, having the Emperor take over it and make it his base of operations to set up the Imperial Palace there is an awesome idea! He could be seen talking to Vader in ESB from that location. It's a good time to re-introduce Coruscant in the classic films (as long as it's in ROTJ now) and maybe the EU could allow Prince Xizor a cameo? He's supposed to witness that scene (purposefully because of another scheme of the Emperor's to kill Luke).

As to the Vader theme and John Williams? I've warmed up to that change. When Vader enters the Blockade Runner is a given. Next the scenes on the Death Star when he senses Obi-Wan might be ok. It should be used very sparingly. Possibly extremely briefly in the Battle of Yavin, when Vader and his wingmen first launch.

I don't think there shoud be more. ANH has a classic sound to it all it's own.

JediTricks
06-01-2002, 12:44 AM
Thanks Caesar for reading my comments and responding. Unfortunately, there is one reason... Lucas says so. It's especially sad because I'm told the Laser Disc versions (which are pre-SE) also have GREAT features, so they would have made a perfect DVD transfer.

You know what my problem really is with all this? DVD is the first really non-degrading, popular, high-quality a/v, "universal" format and apparently, we may never have access to the true original Star Wars movies. VHS is an inferior format in both audio and video and it is subject to decay due to its magnetic nature; and Laser Disc never became popular enough/universal to make it out of its dark ages (plus, the discs are large and more fragile than DVDs). The especially frustrating part for me is that Lucas originally started doing the Special Editions not to alter their content, but to save them from degrading further since the original prints had decayed quite a bit. Now we are quickly losing those originals and unless Lucas changes his mind, they'll soon be gone forever.

stillakid
06-01-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
Now he might have known the Senate was desolved. Tarken said "I have just received word [from Vader] that the council has been dissolved permanently!"

Where did that [from Vader] addition come into play? I never assumed that Vader was the one carrying that message, not that it matters who told Tarkin anyway. It has no bearing on the story, as far as I can tell.

Tycho
06-01-2002, 01:12 AM
Oh, I'm saying that IF they added Palpatine to ANH, that is the one place where it wouldn't be too disruptive, and that is how Tarken could have "received word."

They could film Hayden, or be kind to David Prowse for non-action scenes and closeups (where Vader doesn't have to do anything) and put either of them in the black. Then make Ian up to be older still and put him in the hologram.

I don't think it's necessary. But I don't think I'd hate that. The dialogue must not be cheasy though, such as : "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival." Aaarrggggh!

Darth Grifter
06-01-2002, 05:59 PM
ok, so maybe i respect lucas a lot and just can't see him doing the chicken thing in order to flex his creative muscle. my only defense against the claims that he might be tampering with an already perfect creation is to just go back to the affirmation that this is only conjecture on the part of fans. i didn't mean to insinuate that the fans can't have opinions, and i didn't mean to try and make a separation between anybody and myself; i only wanted to try and defend the filmmaker who was getting raked over the coals.

to bluntly answer the question of "if lucas added a dancing chicken -- or anything ludicrous for that matter -- would you respect him?" i guess that my answer would be yes because i have all of his other work to base my opinions on, and all of the fond memories of movies, toys, theaters, etc. to keep my respect strong. i wouldn't buy the "chicken editions" however, that's my choice. i too, would like to see the original OT released on DVD; however, if lucas feels that he now has the technology to do them justice in left out scenes and mishaps that needed to be changed and couldn't then i say let him...but i've always said that so i feel i am reiterating a previous statement.

i hope this answers your inquiry...if not, then i guess i'll post again.

stillakid
06-01-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Darth Grifter
ok, so maybe i respect lucas a lot and just can't see him doing the chicken thing in order to flex his creative muscle. my only defense against the claims that he might be tampering with an already perfect creation is to just go back to the affirmation that this is only conjecture on the part of fans. i didn't mean to insinuate that the fans can't have opinions, and i didn't mean to try and make a separation between anybody and myself; i only wanted to try and defend the filmmaker who was getting raked over the coals.

to bluntly answer the question of "if lucas added a dancing chicken -- or anything ludicrous for that matter -- would you respect him?" i guess that my answer would be yes because i have all of his other work to base my opinions on, and all of the fond memories of movies, toys, theaters, etc. to keep my respect strong. i wouldn't buy the "chicken editions" however, that's my choice. i too, would like to see the original OT released on DVD; however, if lucas feels that he now has the technology to do them justice in left out scenes and mishaps that needed to be changed and couldn't then i say let him...but i've always said that so i feel i am reiterating a previous statement.

i hope this answers your inquiry...if not, then i guess i'll post again.

That was pretty good. Thanks. :)

Exhaust Port
06-02-2002, 12:55 PM
I know I'm coming late into the thread but I just wanted to throw my few sentences in. I too liked some of the additions as well as disliked others. I would love to see George do one final touchup to complete the 6 part series as one. With that being said I would like to see George remember that we fell in love with the original OT and make that available as well. It seems that the fan pressure to speed the release of TPM on DVD worked, perhaps it'll work to insure that the original versions of the OT will be available as well. Heck, I'd be willing to buy them seperate just to have them in my collection.

sir wilbur copeland
06-02-2002, 11:24 PM
Is it a total impossibility that they will ever make 7, 8 and 9 into movies?

I'm a purest, so I don't read anything that's in addition to the movies. I don't want to know anything about E3 or anything else. Please, give me some insight if you can without revealing anything I don't want to know...if you know what I mean.

sir wilbur copeland
06-02-2002, 11:48 PM
To clarify, I am very cautious when I explore any SW books or website etc. because I don't want anything to ruin my midnight viewing of the latest installment. I've stayed away from the 7 8 and 9 books hoping that maybe one day they;ll be made for the screen.

Before the PM came out I was working part time in a toy dept. and had to stock all the boxes of action figures, and I worked for hours with them and NEVER LOOKED AT A SINGLE ONE!

BTW I think there has to be an original version on dvd, and Lucas wants to make more changes that's cool to - I'd love to see them. This is in spite of the fact that I'd have to say I was mostly disappointed with the EV. But it was still cool to see, and I own them.

ANother BTW - Padme could still be alive. PL only said her mother died. This could easily be construed as part of the deception. They couls bring her in later in Episode 7 - remember I'm saying this having about zero knowledge of the post OT books.

JediTricks
06-04-2002, 04:16 PM
Lucas has made it very clear that the Star Wars saga will end on the big screen with ROTJ, no more prequels, no more sequels. He originally had said 9 films, but later changed his mind. While it's possible he could change his mind yet again, I wouldn't bet on it.

I personally have an idea for 7,8,9 which throws out all the EU post-ROTJ, so even though I've read the Heir to the Empire trilogy, I wouldn't accept it as "canon" if ever 7,8,9 got made. That's not to say it's not a great series though.

Darth Grifter
06-04-2002, 06:18 PM
what's the theory JT...???

JediTricks
06-04-2002, 07:51 PM
You can see it in this post: http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=18542#post18542

sir wilbur copeland
06-04-2002, 08:46 PM
That's kinda my hope and prayer. I've heard that 7 8 and 9 will never be made, but inside my heart I knda think that GL will change his mind, and if he doesn't want to make them he'll find someone he trusts to make them for him.

I HOPE! That's why I've never read them. Jedi is still a story with much left to tell. There are theoreticly legions of empirial troops out there, and there is by no means a republic government reestablished, and Luke is the only living Jedi. There is so much more to go on, at least to get some kind of stability to the whole galaxy.

aikman
06-06-2002, 12:51 PM
Would I buy the dancing chicken ?
Probably not
Would I go see it in the theater?
You bet.
If you think that the OT is perfect and dont want to see anything changed than you dont have to do anything.
Dont get the SE on dvd, dont see anymore of the stuff he puts out.
He puts out movies, not for you, but for whoever wants to see them. He alters his movies that he has put out because he wanted to, if you want to see them or not is up to you.

Have you ever heard of a directors cut of a movie? Sometimes things change and get added/removed. Are some changes better or worse than others? Sure, but it is what it is.
If it is so scarring to ones psyche to see a movie and then see another version of it that you dont like it sounds like movies isnt your top issue to work out.

No matter what ends up changing ,Ill always remember Han shooting first...

JediTricks
06-06-2002, 05:57 PM
"then you don't have to do anything"

Nor do you get to SEE anything because eventually, the originals will deteriorate and they won't exist anymore, as I said in post 100 (http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=98737#post98737). If we had access to the originals as they were originally released between 1977 and 1997 in a format that wasn't limited to poor image quality and decay, then it wouldn't be an issue, but we won't.

Tycho
06-06-2002, 07:14 PM
JT makes a VERY valid point. Our videos won't last forever. And even if they weren't wearing out, there's always the chance that there'd be an accident while moving, or the family dog - whatever. The original movies on tape become irreplaceable.

Beast
06-06-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
JT makes a VERY valid point. Our videos won't last forever. And even if they weren't wearing out, there's always the chance that there'd be an accident while moving, or the family dog - whatever. The original movies on tape become irreplaceable.
:D So glad I invested in the laserdisc versions of both the Original Versions and the Special Editions. And as soon as the price of a DVD burner goes down, I will definatly be doing some burns for myself, as well as all of my friends. ;) :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

JangoTango
06-07-2002, 02:03 PM
I think GL should do whatever he thinks is right. It is, after all, HIS vision, not OURS. We're just here to love his vision, not for him to cater to ours. I think any additions would be minor, maybe salvaging some original footage that hit the cutting room floor, and not necessarily making up scenes that are completely CG.

I kind of like the idea of seeing a peaceful Alderaan with Bail looking up to the sky with a big "OH S***" look. I think it would add a little depth and severity to the situation; we all just watched originally and said "Whoa, they blew up a whole planet", now we'll get the sense of reality that an entire civilization lived there.

Also, I think any Padme scenes will be shown 'dreamily' when Leia speaks of vaguely remembering her mother, saying she was "very beautiful".

And FYI, Obi-Wan said to Luke: "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." He did not say TRAINED. Big difference. Qui-Gon need not be mentioned at all in the OT.

stillakid
06-07-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by JangoTango
And FYI, Obi-Wan said to Luke: "You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." He did not say TRAINED. Big difference. Qui-Gon need not be mentioned at all in the OT.

FYI:

http://www.sirstevesguide.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=96502#post96502

Originally posted by bigbarada
I looked it up for you:)

instruct - to give knowledge to. TEACH, TRAIN (gah! there goes that theory)

train - to form by instruction discipline or drill :(, see Thomas ;)

Oh well, it was worth a shot; but wait if I really wanted to reach to make my point then I could also use one of the meanings of "instruct" which is "to command." Thus Yoda could've commanded Ben to go find Luke on Hoth, and that would've been what he meant. "The Jedi Master who instructed me **the last part garbled by 'Force Static'** to come find you here."

Okay, I didn't think so either. Man I hate proving myself wrong.:mad:

2-1B
06-08-2002, 12:11 AM
I watched the THX trilogy last weekend, and I forgot about the trailer at the beginning that clearly states it would be our last chance to own the original versions. Way back in '95 I didn't really concern myself with the inevitable deterioration of the THX tapes . . . but that trailer can't be used to defend a "no DVD" stance. I mean, that was about 2 years before DVD started creeping into the mainstream, and there were no guarantees (I'm guessing) that DVD would become so HUGE. I think if George would just go ahead with even a "one-time only" classics on DVD release, this issue would never come up again because those discs should outlive me and my generation, and another release many years from now would be completely understandable. Just a thought I had . . .