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Tycho
06-02-2002, 05:05 PM
I really find it hard to believe that people think Anakin will fall into and completely get submerged in lava.

I also want to shoot those volcano planet theories down once and for all...

First some facts about geology: at the cores of most planets (definitely earth) is molten lava. Coruscant is likely the same way. In mythology, the hero's journey through hell takes him in the direction down. In religion, hell is also referred to in the direction down. Coruscant is a planet full of vice and corruption and to sink as deep as one can get in it would set one on a course for hell. Palpatine will most likely preside over part of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel, and to escape assasination and for private meditation away from where the Jedi can sense his powers, it would make sense if he had a secret lair beneath the surface of the city-planet. Somewhere even the granite slugs and sub-human demon lifeforms that roam the lowest, most uninhabitable levels of Coruscant don't dare go because of either a lack of access, or the fire and the heat. Besides, it sets it up perfectly that these creatures exist in the darkness just above the entrance to hell - demons are always said to protect it. And I'll add - we never see Palpatine leave Coruscant.


Next some facts about Darth Vader (that we know for sure). Vader has a mechanical right arm. Dooku cut his original biological arm off. Vader requires a respirator unit. This kind of thing helps people with lung damage. You can see less portable versions in hospitals today, as well as less complicated portable ones with the elderly who must carry oxygen with them. Vader has some lightsaber scarring to the back of his head and face - Obi-Wan Kenobi has a lightsaber (duh). Vader has the powers of telekenisis - the ability to move things with the Force.

A fact about molten lava: it burns up and disintegrates everything. Watch Terminator 2 again and see what happens when the T-1000 falls into molten metal (lava is the same thing - the earth is composed of super-heated molten metals - that's what lava is). Flesh would start to burn even before you get into the lava. (See Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) - oh and Anakin's flesh is not burned! (see Freddy Kruger in A Nightmare on Elmstreet). Fact: the air above lava is super hot. Fact- people, human Jedi, breath air. If Anakin breathes this super-hot air into his lungs, wouldn't he damage them? Fact: even if Anakin was too close to molten lava, he'd still have to breathe. Fact: Obi-Wan does not get that close, obviously.

Finally, theory: if you had even unprecedented powers of telekenisis, they would be hard to control after you got struck in the head by a lightsaber - and twice at that! We've never seen a Jedi project a "Force-field" around them, using their abilities of telekenisis, to shield themselves in a 360 degree direction. Anakin would not survive being submerged into lava if he did not attempt to do this. He would be burnt up anywhere that he failed. It would only take seconds and he could not be saved. Therefore, he will not fall INTO lava. But it may appear to look that way.

Lava comes up from cracks in the earth's surface. Cracks look like cliffs - the ocean's chasms were formed that way. There are ledges and precipes on the edges of cliffs that can't always be seen.

I submit Anakin falls over the edge (without his new lightsaber), and to Obi-Wan it looks like he went in (like when Jango thought Obi-Wan himself fell into the drink on Kamino during the rain fight). Anakin did not fall in - he landed on a precipiece. He may see that much, then the flames rise so it obscures our view of Anakin on the ledge. We know he breathes the air down there - too close for his own safety. But that is the last we see of them.

FACT: this is a 12-13 hour movie with chapters 1-6. If we see Anakin being rescued and put into the Vader armor, it will ruin Episode 5 when Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father.

If watching it for the first time, we don't even know that the new hero is Luke SKYWALKER, because he doesn't even say his name until he rescues the Princess on the Death Star.

He tells Threepio "You can call me Luke. No, just Luke."

In fact, we don't even know that anyone on Tatooine DOESN'T think his name isn't Luke Lars up unto that point.

Vader will appear in Episode 3 after Anakin is presumed dead by the characters in the movie. We will "know" he is actually Darth Vader, and the Jedi characters will sense something familiar about him, but we will not be shown Hayden Christensen in the black suit (even if the actor wears it to play Vader in some parts).

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 06:42 PM
okay, i'll bite...


Originally posted by Tycho
Next some facts about Darth Vader (that we know for sure). Vader has a mechanical right arm. Dooku cut his original biological arm off. Vader requires a respirator unit. This kind of thing helps people with lung damage. You can see less portable versions in hospitals today, as well as less complicated portable ones with the elderly who must carry oxygen with them. Vader has some lightsaber scarring to the back of his head and face - Obi-Wan Kenobi has a lightsaber (duh). Vader has the powers of telekenisis - the ability to move things with the Force.

ben himself says he's MORE machine now, than man...


FACT: this is a 12-13 hour movie with chapters 1-6. If we see Anakin being rescued and put into the Vader armor, it will ruin Episode 5 when Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father.

even still, when luke calls himself skywalker to leia at the detention block, then it's prematurely ruined...



If watching it for the first time, we don't even know that the new hero is Luke SKYWALKER, because he doesn't even say his name until he rescues the Princess on the Death Star.

see above...



He tells Threepio "You can call me Luke. No, just Luke."

he's objecting to being called "sir" not avoiding giving his last name...



Vader will appear in Episode 3 after Anakin is presumed dead by the characters in the movie. We will "know" he is actually Darth Vader, and the Jedi characters will sense something familiar about him, but we will not be shown Hayden Christensen in the black suit (even if the actor wears it to play Vader in some parts).

this still skips over anakin's darkest moment, unless he turns to the dark side before getting schooled by obi-wan, (which is most likely how it comes to be that they duel...) in which case, wouldn't he already have taken a darth name?

i guess i just really don't understand why everyone's so intent on keeping the secrets of OT? maybe this should be a poll... how many want to see the secrets intact, or how many don't care, or how many want everything divulged...

Tycho
06-02-2002, 07:21 PM
I could write a poll up on this. But it would have to be done very carefully.

People vote quickly and don't THINK. If I put a note in my post for the pros and cons of showing Hayden get encased in the armor, it will often be read after people voted.

That Ben says "he's more machine than man" could mean a lot of things. There may be some brutal dismemberment by lightsaber going on in that duel with Obi-Wan! However, lava would leave nothing left.

Like I said, they WILL fight by lava. Anakin won't take a bath in it.
However, other chemicals, like what Jack Rapier fell into, might make a play into things. Of course Batman fans know Jack Rapier by another name: The Joker. (See Batman: The Movie).

But I think the lava - the colors, everything will be more dramatic than green, boiling chemicals. Those would still scar him like Freddy Kruegar anyhow. He can't fall into anything!

---------------------------------------------------------------

I know he is telling Threepio he need not be called "Sir," not hiding his identity, but the point is he doesn't say "Skywalker." He could have. The audience wouldn't have thought anything of it if Luke does or does not give his full name back in the context of seeing only THIS movie in 1977.

Every movie in the Star Wars saga reveals something. Perhaps ANH reveals the least. Now it is actually given something more (if you'd never seen it and then got this one as Episode 4, watching them all in order, when you figure all the Skywalkers are dead with Shmi and Anakin - OR - w. Padme and her children presumed dead or some hidden connection being made with a smuggled baby (singular - as Leia must be kept secret until ROTJ or Luke is constantly suggesting incest with his desires to get close to her).

There aren't pivotal moments when Anakin 'becomes evil.' There are steps he takes that he cannot draw back from. It's a little late to say "Oh, sorry about that" for either him or Obi-Wan after this duel. But Anakin took a significant step to the Dark Side when he killed those Tuskens to avenge his mom.

His attachments are his key. Why do you think they take Jedi away when they are so young? -babies...?

His next attachment is Padme. After that it is Obi-Wan. But like most teens breaking away from their parents, Obi-Wan frustrates the hell out of Anakin. The Jedi Code and Training Traditions exist, but Obi-Wan is the most visible spokesperson for them in Anakin's life. So he'll blame Obi-Wan for preventing him from rescuing his mother sooner.

Now Palpatine patronizes Anakin. "You don't need guidence." Etc. So he'll become Anakin's next closest attachment.

If he blames Obi-Wan for not allowing him to prevent the death of his wife and unborn child, Palpatine will capitalize on this anger and use it to turn Anakin. He gave up everything for Padme and the chance to have a family since losing his own (his mother). Now that's taken away from him and he has nothing, but the Supreme Chancellor's patronage. Obi-Wan will come along - likely having learned the truth about Palpatine / Sidious, and by this time (as indicated by Anakin's tantrum in the Lars garage) young Skywalker will blame everything on Obi-Wan.

Why is that not the most obvious thing anybody ever thought of?

Do you think he turned to the Dark Side because his favorite team lost the SuperBowl?

His wife and unborn child were just reported murdered! Is that not his darkest hour?

Why does he want to dress in armor (or not) and walk around and call himself Darth while ruining ESB for us before anything like this happens to him?

Why would being kicked out of the Jedi Order be such a bad thing if he picked up a wife and family in the trade-off? That's not his darkest hour.

"The evil Anakin" will look exactly like Hayden Christensen when he kills the Tusken Raiders.

I don't have to know spoilers to figure out some things that are common sense.

Sorry if I sounded harsh. I just can't phathom why anyone would miss this set-up.

Finally if that's not enough: Dooku might be his father. Dooku is dead by this point, too. Killed possibly by Anakin. On top of his wife and unborn child, that's the last straw! You can't erase the stain of blood on your hands. And by killing Dooku, Anakin does just that.

Last but not least, Dooku might really be in on this to destroy the Sith from the inside out. Maybe his plan 'could have succeeded,' but Anakin came along and killed him! Ooops. Another mistake he can't take back.

darthvyn
06-02-2002, 07:57 PM
i didn't say anything about falling anywhere. i agree with you, he won't have fallen into anything.

i have always felt that the blaming obi-wan was TOO obvious to even mention. i strongly feel that anakin's frustration with obi-wan is part of his fall. i'm not missing any set up, i just think that he will be "darth vader" long before he is in the suit... yes, anakin is the rebellious teenager to obi-wan's overbearing parent. all this $#!^ happens to him, and he's driven over the edge. probably his last step to the dark side is turning on his former master.

i guess the only thing that concerns me is it might feel kinda hokey if we DON'T see anakin become vader. like, it will be almost too obvious if we see anakin "die" and all of a sudden this new sith lord appears. all i'm saying is, i think it is inevitible that the secrets are revealed in ep III. even if they're not spoken. furthermore, i don't think this is my point of view just because i already know the secrets. i feel like it will have to be IMMENSELY subtle if the secrets are to be maintained, and that's why i am worried that the story will suffer greatly.

it still stands that the luke/vader secret is ruined at a particularly anticlimactic part of ANH. maybe if they digitally change his name to "lars"...

i didn't say anything about being kicked out of the jedi order as his darkest moment. i feel that his darkest moment is when he is initiated into the sith, whenever that may happen. most likely that happens after he challenges his former master (his last step,) so it will skip over THE darkest moment, in hopes that a few brand new viewers might not guess who is behind the mask.

it's not that i want the secrets revealed prematurely, i just don't want the story to suffer from over-subtlety.

Darth Grifter
06-02-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

Finally if that's not enough: Dooku might be his father. Dooku is dead by this point, too. Killed possibly by Anakin. On top of his wife and unborn child, that's the last straw! You can't erase the stain of blood on your hands. And by killing Dooku, Anakin does just that.

Last but not least, Dooku might really be in on this to destroy the Sith from the inside out. Maybe his plan 'could have succeeded,' but Anakin came along and killed him! Ooops. Another mistake he can't take back.

Why would Dooku be Anakin's father? That sound a little far fetched when Shmi herself tells Qui-Gon that there was no father. I think that a woman would know, not that I am one, when she conceived a child with a man. If Anakin has a father it separates the "Messiah-like" birth that Anakin has. I think that Lucas is playing with the Messiah story line becasue he wants to make Anakin -- "the chosen one" -- out to be the redemption and/or saviour of the Force...however, we all know that he is not and that his children are.

I agree with your Lava, or should I say non-Lava theory about Anakin's need for the respirator. I also think that there doesn't need to be a secret about Anakin being Darth Vader, because Obi-Wan hides the truth from Luke about Darth Vader being Anakin Skywalker in the "Your father was killed by Darth Vader" rouse in ANH and then later confesses in ESB that he had fibbed. Yoda also seems to know and changes the subject on his deathbed when Luke asks why he never told him. This seems evident enough to me that Hayden might dawn the suit in the later part of EIII. I don't really know, these are just my theories. I think that would be a sweet overlay to the ending, a flash of the children's fate and then a flash of the mask being lowered down...This is the fun part about a new movie, it gives clues about what is to come and also makes new questions...I guess we'll have to wait until 2005...Thanks George ;)

This is a good thread Tycho, thanks...

Darth Grifter
06-02-2002, 08:04 PM
Do you think that maybe the final step over will be Anakin defending Sidious/Palpatine against a strike from Obi-Wan and that might be how the battle begins...This would be an excellent parallel to Luke's attempt on the Emperor in ROTJ...Just a quick thought...

Darth_Stevious
06-02-2002, 08:47 PM
Tycho: First I would appreciate if you wouldn't refer to anyone who doesn't agree with or think the same way as you as an Idiot. I'm sure you feel pretty certain about your theories surrounding the Star Wars universe. You have to remember, however, that your theory is simply a theory or in other words itís your Opinion. You don't have to write a post that starts off calling people an idiot and then speaking to them as if they were ignorant ten year olds to get your point across. We all can read just fine and I'm sure many of us have graduated from high school or college and have a decent understanding of the natural world. We understand that falling directly into lava would most certainly kill you.

Now I may be wrong, itís been a while since I read it, but I don't think the book says Anakin fell into lava at all. It did say he and Obi-Wan were fighting on the lip of a volcano and at some point Anakin fell into a volcano, but not lava (which is molten rock and not molten metal by the way). The one thing that is found in abundance in a volcano is water vapor. The wounds on Anakinís body could very well come from exposure to super heated water vapor. His lung damage could have been caused by another element that is very common in a volcano, that is sulfuric gasses and other gasses that combined could cause serious lung damage. So as you see itís not so idiotic to think that Anakin fell into a volcano after all.

Remember, you have your OPINION. Other people may not share that OPINION. The fact that other people do not agree with your OPINION does not make them idiots. As soon as that OPINION becomes fact, you can then consider calling somebody an idiot who does not agree with you, but not until then.

Tycho
06-02-2002, 09:13 PM
Darth Grifter: That's exactly what I think it will be (the cause of the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan). Thought I made that clear. Sorry, it must have been the "complete story synopsis thread."

As to Dooku being the father - I've been through this before.

1) it's most strongly motivated because I am uncomfortable with the immaculate conception theory! I admit that. I don't like it, nor religious legends, very much at all. No thank you!

These next points have to assume it's true - he has a father:

2) Shmi lied to protect Dooku. Qui-Gon and the Jedi wouldn't know, but Dooku would have told her about his former apprentice who was off training Kenobi by then (Obi-Wan would be 15 when Anakin was born). Thus Shmi knows who Qui-Gon is and lets her son leave with him. If Qui-Gon sense something familiar about the boy, it was the impossible that he'd never think of: Anakin was related to his former master.

3) Palpatine learned the truth about this and used it to exploit Dooku. That's why Dooku is the specific Jedi he needs for his plots.

4) Dooku might know he has a son, but he doesn't realize it's Anakin. Or that his son and lover survived being taken by pirates and were sold into slavery shortly afterward. He doesn't even know who it was he fought against (meaning Anakin in the hanger battle). He left before Anakin came to the Temple. Everything that happens has to do with Palpatine's design. Dooku might've been black-mailed or he might've been tempted to avenge Qui-Gon by joining the Dark Side to then destroy Sidious from right behind his back.

5) Might want to check the script for the deleted Trial scene on Geonosis. Do they just address Padme and refer to him as "the Jedi" or do they care to learn his name is Anakin. They're just human Jedi to these guys, just like the name of the Geonosian that the Nexu ate is not that important to you.

6) This whole forbidden love thing reinforces the like-father, like-son theme. But Luke says, "I can't kill my own father." What would it have done to his character if he'd looped over and blown away Vader's TIE? Then learned the truth when it was too late?
I think Anakin does and he carries this guilt with him. I think if this whole Dooku thing is true, the Council might know - they midichlorian tested them both at different points. I don't know if Obi-Wan knows. But regardless, if Yoda knows, Anakin will hate the Jedi even more.

7) I think that Jedi aren't allowed to marry because it will produce more midi-chlorian high kids than the Jedi can control - they could inter-marry and become even more powerful. The Temple is like Mutant High in X-men. It's for those that can't help what they are to learn to use their abilities. Not to create more "abominations." Furthermore, if a Jedi parent was allowed to train their own child, it might create too much pressure - like when your dad's your baseball coach - and / or the parent might take too much pride in their own and push they child unreasonably. The alternative is to have someone else train them. If you were a Jedi and had your kid passed off to Howard the Duck and instructed not to interact with your own child, how would you feel? Especially when his or her midi-chlorian count was high enough to turn them into a Darth Vader?

Tycho
06-02-2002, 09:49 PM
Darth Stevious:

First, I might consider changing that line in the title of my post because I do not wish to offend.

However, I did not call anyone an idiot. I merely suggested that things I've heard before from people everywhere, including things overheard in the toy stores, book stores, movie lines, etc. sound idiotic to me. Some people, including some children, start talking about the lava every once in a while - and it's enough to irk me how many people do not either a) perceive a Jedi's powers in a believable manner (despite this being a fictional space fantasy) and b) that some people either don't know the basic property of lava - that bathing in it will dissolve you, or they say things like that (he'll fall into lava) and don't think through how ridiculous that sounds.

So, no one has been called an idiot by name (save for R2D2, but blame that on Threepio anyway).

Next, the possibly goading title certainly did attract attention, didn't it? :D For shock value, it might be worth keeping. It is starting an interesting discussion, isn't it? By posting in here you're not including yourself as an idiot, or I am then also the king of all idiots for starting this thread. But in line with Star Wars, I prefer the title "Lord" of all the idiots instead. (*takes a big whiff of my Mouse Droid*)

Oh, now here's a big one:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BOOK!

What book are you talking about? Lucas wrote an outline. He developed the middle act into ANH with a backstory in mind. He went forward instead of backward, and we have ESB and ROTJ.

Now he's gone all the way back and is making this stuff up as he fills the details in. He is following an outline, but it has never been fleshed out and it has certainly never been published. I don't think Rick McCallum has this, so I don't think anyone on this site does either.

I once met a guy in Wal*Mart in the action figure isle out in Santee, California. He swore his great Aunt had the "whole book" somewhere up in her attic. I'm sure if he got that dusty old rag out from up there he could turn to chapter 2 and it would say "Attack of the Clones?" No? Then what about the title for Episode 3? Somebody would know that now....

Or if Padme lives or dies?

OK - there is no book. The last chapter is being written right now, and there is a waste paper basket next to George's desk full of ideas that have been thrown out. I am willing to accept that maybe some of my theories are in there.

Another thing is I posted about it being idiotic to think that Anakin fell into LAVA. I said nothing about it being impossible that he'd fall into a volcano. However, I think that it's likely that this duel takes place on Coruscant (which might have a volcano somewhere - or a big earthquake to create one) or it is rather more probable that they are beneath the surface of Coruscant's crust.

Thank you for continuing my geology lesson. I did not know about the sulfur and molten rock and molten metal differences. But isn't rock made out of mineral elements, as is metal? Metal can be made out of ore, such as iron, an element...oh...you can fill me in on that one, it doesn't matter next to knowledge about Star Wars. I just know you can find metals on the periodic table of elements and you can make it by super-heating different kinds of rock and ore, so it's all there in the lava core of a planet, from a certain point of view. But back to the knowledge of Star Wars, the lava thing is not in any book. It's possible that Lucas himself perpetuated that rumor by generalizing about it in some interview, but I don't really know how or when that lava thing got started, but it was older than ESB, I can tell you that.

Finally, while I like to be outrageous with my post titles from time to time, if my theories are proven correct, I might enjoy a smug "I told you so," but I would not call any person an idiot specifically. We respect other people in the forums here (or should make a stronger effort to) and it would be totally inappropriate.

If you have another theory, such as a volcano planet, or a volcano on Coruscant, or whatever, please post it up! Either myself or someone else will disagree with it (possibly) and tear into it, but that is what these threads are for. Don't just agree or disagree, let's have a discussion! I will predictably defend my theories until I hear something better, but I have been known to adapt my theories and thinking towards good arguments brought up by somebody else.

Finally, if I made my original post sound like I was talking to 10 years olds, it's because I was. I realize the majority of those reading are older - 20's like myself, or 30's-40's and educated, but young people can always benefit by being taught (or tempted into) learning how to reason logically, and the guy in Wal*Mart who thought there was some official finished book covering the whole saga WAS in his 20's at the least. He looked older than me anyway. But he might be a newer, or less-informed fan and he has every right to be. But this thread will help bring new folks up to date about everything from "complete books" to the lava theory.

Rogue II
06-02-2002, 10:03 PM
Hey Tycho, if this thread doesn't frustrate you enough, go read the Syfo Dyas Q&A. Its in the Episode II forum. Some of the guys in there have Mace Windu and Qui Gon being Sith, Anakin being a clone, and some other wacky ideas that make my head want to explode.

Darth Grifter
06-02-2002, 10:10 PM
So these reasons seem to be true, but some of them seem a little far fetched and based on the sole denial by you to be a basis of the devine birth. I don't intend to make this a religious debate by any means because of my own disenchantment with organized religion, however, I thought that it was soooooooooo obvious that Lucas was playing on the whole "the boy is the chosen one, he has no father, he was created by the force, for the force, to be destroyed by the force...etc." as a metaphor for the birth of Christ. Maybe George found religion between ROTJ and TPM, who knows, but it seemed to me like a great way to bring in how incredibly special Anakin is -- or was...

Shmi seems like too much of a "perfect mother" to have a deceitful bone in her body. Especially because I always got the creepy vibe that it Qui-Gon would have lived he would have gone back for Shmi out of an attraction. (At least that's the feeling that I got from the film)

To another point:

Expanding on your "duel of fates on Corruscant" theory, it seems only logical to me to be placed there instead of some other "one element" planet (i.e. Ice=Hoth, Desert=Tatooine, Forrest=Endor Moon, Water=Kamino, etc.) only because of the fact that Palpatine doesn't leave the planet until ROTJ. However, where I disagree with you is in the location on Coruscant. I think that AOTC set up the use of a lava flow very subtlely at the end when Dooku/Tyrannus(pointless name) meets Sidious in what looks like the heavily industrial side of the planet's surface. Maybe the industrial sects of the planet have harnessed the heat, power, and energy provided in a lava flow and created giant factories built upon the cracks in the planets surface. It is in these factories that Sidious has established a base, and it will be in these factories (filled with the sulfuric gasses and extreme heat that is a biproduct to the use of lava) that the confrontation/duel will take place.

Tycho
06-02-2002, 10:36 PM
Darth Grifter : I'd buy into that!

They also flew near that area in the speeder chase.

I imagined the lava in cracks at the core because of the original Ralph McQuarrie picture drawn way back and toted along in the magic of the myth Smithsonian tour.

However, how in the heck Palpatine would have an elevator built and maintained at a point THAT far down past all the demons and uglies that live beneathe the buildings in Coruscants' totally dark bowells IS far fetched on my behalf. That's the part I don't like about my own theory. So you're helps you along. Plus Anakin is closer to modern medical attention.

Its all more believable your way.

Jedi Clint
06-02-2002, 10:37 PM
I dig what you're saying Tycho. I don't buy into any Anakin's father theories, but to each their own ;).

darthvyn,

As long as we don't hear Anakin referred to as Darth Vader, Darth Vader referred to as Anakin, or see a sequence of Anakin being fitted into Vader's suit, then the mystery of the man behind the mask remains. ANYTHING outside of those three on screen events can be used to show that Anakin has crossed the point of no return. That is a whole lot of wiggle room. It can be hinted at as long as it isn't confirmed.


As long as tall dark and handsome remains mysterious I don't see why knowing that Luke is the child of Anakin Skywalker would ruin any surprise.

Darth Grifter
06-03-2002, 12:46 AM
Clint --

What about the fact that Obi-Wan knows that Vader is Luke's father? If we as an audience don't find out until ESB, that's ok, but I still don't see the reason why we can't have a scene of Hayden putting it on...

Jedi Clint
06-03-2002, 12:59 AM
The first thing I would do after being put into an iron lung is go after the guy who put me there. If Darth Vader sees action in E3, then I'm betting on him hunting down his former master for a little bit of retribution toward the end of the film.

darthvyn
06-03-2002, 10:42 AM
i just think that if anakin "dies" then vader appears out of nowhere, and then especially if vader for some unknown reason goes after obi-wan, it will be too obvious, and come off as cheesey.

i'm not AGAINST keeping the secrets of OT, i'm just leery about the prospect of poor storytelling to keep those secrets, y'know? i just want the best story possible, and i just can't see that happening while concentrating on skirting the secret issues...

as for the lava issue, anakin will have to fall a great depth before landing on a precipice, because if the duel takes place to close to the gases, obi-wan is suseptible (sp?) to them as well... then, to keep the secrets, we may never see anakin land on the precipice, and have to assume as obi-wan does that anakin fell all the way... we may never actually have an answer to the title of this thread, if the secrets are to be intact...

Tycho
06-03-2002, 12:04 PM
I don't think you'll see Darth Vader fight Obi-Wan in E3.

That's why there are plenty of other prominently seen Jedi for Vader to deal with (save for Mace who has a reckoning with Boba Fett as it's set up).

I think that Vader might feel guilty about what he's become and let Obi-Wan go. Furthermore, he won't want revenge against Obi-Wan for his wounds. He'll be ashamed he turned on his master, who he knew like his father-figure.

Anakin may have "Put himself in the iron lung."

Less subtly, in the duel with Obi-Wan, Anakin may realize what he's become, and what an alliance with Palpatine would mean - completely going over to the Dark Side.

He will not know Palpatine's on the Dark Side until Obi-Wan brings this info to him - so Palpatine will not have to say "Oh, and by the way..."

Anakin will have

1) lost his mother in E2 because he wasn't allowed by the Jedi to go an save her when he had the dreams

2) been kicked out of the Jedi Order (or quit) because he was married, and thus Anakin never becomes a real Jedi Knight through the normal process. The term "Jedi" used by Ben and Yoda in the OT was just a generality because Luke's father wasn't a Naboo Royal Security Officer, a navigator on a spice freighter, or a Gamorrean.

3) Anakin is recalled into Jedi Service because the Clone Wars have gone so badly and they need him, plus Obi-Wan has located Count Dooku and he wants his old apprentice back, so Anakin loses his pregnant wife and unborn child while getting 1 chance to demonstrate to movie audiences what a great starfighter pilot he's become, but only at the cost of Padme's life (so he's led to believe).

4) Anakin's only relationship left is with Palpatine, and Obi-Wan reveals what Palpatine really is and how Anakin is so angry that he's turning on Obi-Wan and playing into the Sith Lord's game.

5) Anakin MIGHT have slain his own father (in Dooku) AND/OR he might have killed the Jedi's only chance (unorthodox as it might be) to destroy the Sith from within (via Darth Tyranus who only fakes his allegiance to the Sith - possibly).

6) Anakin's lost everything and seriously screwed up and has now chosen to turn on his master. Realizing he made the wrong move, he might lose the saber duel to Obi-Wan, or at least his life (as I think Obi-Wan would try to save him), because Anakin just gives up.

Thus, even if we never see Anakin become Vader, "Vader" does betray and murder Luke's father. From a certain point of view.

I picture Anakin, arm severed again, hanging by the precipiece, head and face cut by lightsaber wounds because he savagely attacked Obi-Wan without thinking or defending (it will NOT be the most skilled lightsaber duel, though it could be the most intense) and Obi-Wan reaches out for him "Anakin. Come with me." [Obi-Wan once thought as you do. - TO LUKE] But Anakin lets himself fall just as Luke Skywalker would do 21 years later.

Obi-Wan assumes he hit the lava, refinery fires, chemicals, whatever... Anakin will likely lose consciousness so Obi-Wan cannot sense him in the Force. Royal Guards may attack and drive Obi-Wan away, as Palpatine (off screen, might have sensed Anakin's turning to the Dark Side and a furious Jedi battle so close to the capitol).

Anakin knows he gave up his life.

I'm sure that Palpatine rebuilding him would make Anakin feel like he owes his life to Palpatine - "the only one who understood him," Sith Lord or not.

His allegiance will be complete. Palpatine may not need to have a big "I am THE Sith Lord" revelation speech. His face will be shown though, finally, with Vader at his side. I don't think they'll keep THAT a big secret (from the audience). It isn't one save for dramatic purposes in TPM and AOTC. I can't imagine it would remain important to stay a secret to the audience, but to the galaxy's fictional public, he's a hero, a new Emperor, but it is probably not widely known that he's a Sith Lord.

Darth Grifter
06-03-2002, 01:43 PM
i think the big question as pertaining to the secrets of OT being intact needs to be examined from POV, point of view. In TPM it is a general POV moving from Obi-Wan to Anakin who we will follow from AOTC to Ep3. In the OT the POV is from the twins perspective and this leads to all the secrets because they really know nothing of their past. The reason that we can see Hayden put on the mask, etc. is because we are watching the film from his perspective and we see events unfold from his POV. This is really the only reason that I see as to how we can watch the dawning of the "iron lung"

Unless of course George throws us a curve ball and shifts the POV in Ep3 away from Anakin and more toward Padme and Obi-Wan...I don't see this happening though, because the whole 6 episodes are really about Anakin/Vader...

187-Maul
06-03-2002, 01:58 PM
doesn't obi-wan say something about "previous learner" or something like that to vader in their fight in ANH? wouldn't that already reveal everything since we know anakin was his only padawan?

Jedi Clint
06-03-2002, 02:27 PM
I don't think Anakin is booted out of the Jedi order. They need him from the time he gets married in secret, to the time he whoops Dooku's butt for the home team.

Vader is still hostile toward Obi Wan 20 years later in ANH. He has been harboring that ill will since their previous fight, which cost him his health.

Anakin will not know that Padme is pregnant.

I still say they need a second confrontation in E3, just a small one.

darthvyn
06-03-2002, 03:30 PM
y'know, we actually don't know that it's obi-wan who does this to vader... it's just conjecture. if it's a duel between dooku and anakin, it would be whoever is the (most anatomically intact) survivor that would be palpatine's apprentice. maybe later, we see vader and obi-wan ("you should not have come back") in some sort of conflict (not necessarily a saber duel, maybe just a sort of "obi-wan, just walk away, and we will not destroy you...")

someone else in the forums theorized that, if the dooku/ani duel is the fateful vader-creator, it could be either one in the armor... dooku is tall, anakin is now turned. this way the identity of the person in the armor is still up in the air, and we could see some sort of donning of the armor the same as we see in the hyperbaric chamber in ESB, just a "cameo" of who is in it... i think this duel would be even more intense than an obi-wan/ani duel, although the theme of turning on one's "father" is another theme that runs strong through the saga...

DarthBrandon
06-03-2002, 04:01 PM
I think we will see Obi-Wan and Darth (Anakin) duel in Episode III, I also think it will be Obi who whoops his butt in the film. If we go back to ANH, Darth and Obi kinda talk about this in thier lightsaber duel. Example(Darth : you should not have come back old man, now the circle is complete, when you left I was but the leaner, now I am the master, Obi :only a master of evil Darth) Something like that, so this shows us that they had a previous confrontation of some sort, that left them both on opposite ends of the Team. Anakin needs to be scarred and battered by Obi and possibly Dooku as well to become Vader. Lava can't see it happening, like Tyco said, it would burn you up in seconds. Gases, I could see that happening to make him in need of a respirator of some sort. Scars on his face and back of the head, most def lightsaber wounds. Hands or arms most likely mechanical by the end of Episode III. So there we have it Poisonous gases equal respirator, Scars on face and back of head equal lightsaber hits, and mechanical arms and hands come from being cut off by lightsabers. Him being mostly machine now takes this path. I agree with Tyco this is the only logical way for things to happen. I can't say in which order this will take place, but it will happen, I'm sure of it.

notafinga
06-03-2002, 04:10 PM
187-Maul, you hit it dead on. I know Jedi Clint and I had a discussion about this long ago.

"Vader, who was a pupil of mine, until he turned to evil..."

...that gives the precious "secret" away right there, unless Obi-Wan takes on another apprentice before E4. Doubtful, judging from the way Anakin will turn out (Although he does begin training Luke in spite of his 'failure' w/ Vader).

Jedi Clint
06-03-2002, 04:26 PM
It hints at it, but it does not confirm it.

Tycho
06-05-2002, 05:10 PM
Here's that proof that you won't see Anakin become Vader, and that Ani's kicked out:

OK - you are watching the movies in order for the 1st time.

You've never seen any SW movie. Pretend Episode 3 is out and it does not reveal Anakin being put in the Vader suit.

You recognize R2D2 and understand his mission for this Princess from Alderaan that you've never seen before.

R2 meets this character "Luke" who lives with Owen and Beru on the homestead Shmi Skywalker once resided at. Luke could be anyone - from Beru's side of the family, or the offspring of another son of Cliegg Lars that did not appear on the screen. Owen never said he had no other brothers or sisters. That never came up.

Luke chases R2 out over the Jundland Wastes and is rescued from Tusken Raiders by Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan fought with Luke's father in the Clone Wars. He never said Luke's father was his apprentice (to Luke). Not once in ANH. We still don't know who Luke's father was. He did say that a pupil of his, Darth Vader, betrayed and murdered Luke's Jedi father. Luke's father could now have been any Jedi, but we are suspicious, because it seems like Anakin was Obi-Wan's first apprentice, and Obi-Wan would not have had time to train another Jedi until after Anakin had "died."

2 things:

a) if Anakin is kicked out of the Jedi Order for marrying and does not complete his training, (during the time between E2 and E3) Obi-Wan might have spent 4 years with another apprentice. If taken from the Jedi youth at 13, this apprentice would be 17 during Episode 3, when Anakin, now age 23, comes back.

I could see a 17 year old killing a 23 year old. Especially if the 23 year old hadn't been practicing his arts.

b) After Anakin dies, Obi-Wan could have taken on a new apprentice (in secret or they both fled the Jedi Purge together) and this apprentice (age 13 to possibly an older Jedi who's master was killed and Obi-Wan inherited) then betrays and murders "the Jedi that was Luke's father." That doesn't mean that he didn't give up the hiding place to betray them, get stormtrooper help capturing them, then get to pull the firing squad trigger to execute Luke's father (murder him in another interpretation).

We still don't know Luke's last name, or what his father's name was. We've never seen ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.

Some dialogue, word for word.

No my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

"That was what your uncle told you. He thought your father should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

You fought in the Clone Wars?

"Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

I wished I'd known him.

"He was the best starpilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself....and he was a good friend."

"Which reminds me, I have something here for you that your father wanted you to have when you were old enough. But your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned fool's idealistic crusade the same as your father did."

What is it? [now this weapon might look familiar....]

"Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster, but an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."

How did my father die.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi.....He betrayed and murdered your father.

Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

[the problem I have here is 1 of 2 things has to happen to make this work:

1) Obi-Wan must have that time between 2 & 3 to be rid of Anakin so he could have been training another apprentice while Anakin was kicked out of the Jedi Order until they needed him...

OR

2) There will have to be a time lag in the movie ...."1 year later..." which I strongly oppose as there never has been in any SW movie. They all take place within 1 week of the characters' lives. i.e. - it took a week for the Falcon to leave Hoth and make it to Bespin.

Thus when Vader appears, he will have time to have been trained by Obi-Wan, turned, and so on. Then after Episode 3 he could have killed Luke's father. We don't yet know that this is Luke SKYWALKER. We've never seen ANH, remember?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, we all know we would eventually see the story continuing on with Luke and Ben leaving Tatooine and winding up trapped on the Death Star with nothing better to do than rescue a princess. Suddenly Luke bursts into her detention cell and she asks him:

Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?

"Huh? Oh! -The uniform! I'm Luke SKYWALKER, I'm here to rescue you!"

Whoa! Hang on there Bub! If he's Luke SKYWALKER and there was this whole thing about rescuing Padme Skywalker who was pregnant and getting her and her baby away to safety in the last film, this must be Padme's kid all grown up! And that makes his Jedi Father, Anakin!

Something's not right. If that's true then....wait a sec! How are they going to get out of that Trash Compactor! Oh-no! Ben's been killed! He was the only one who could answer those questions! How am I going to find out! How does this Darth Vader guy he was dueling with figure into all this. Didn't he kill Anakin Skywalker? But I thought I saw Obi-Wan do that in the last movie? Why did Ben lie to Luke? Why did he have to die? Now who's going to answer these questions? These movies don't make any sense!

Cut to THE EMPIRE STIKES BACK:

"Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father!"

He told me enough! He told me you killed him!

"No. I, AM YOUR FATHER!"

No! That's not true! That's impossible!

"Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true!"

SURPRISE!

It works. Now we know Yoda's still alive and we want Luke to ask Yoda: Is that Anakin?

You bet it is!

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 07:17 PM
Not sure on the kicked out thing Tycho, but by know I am sure you know I support the rest of it. I think they will keep Anakin around and even promote him to Knight. With the crisis starting at the same time as his marriage, they may be willing to overlook his lesser qualities.....he is "the chosen one" after all. I think they will give him more authority.......which is the last thing he needs ;)

I also don't see a problem with knowing that Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker. Perhaps I missed something?

Tycho
06-05-2002, 08:18 PM
It lends credit to the argument saying the secrets spoiled already

(in a 1st time, 12 hour viewing of all the movies).

You DO figure out Luke must be the son of Anakin Skywalker in watching ANH, but it is a nice "surprise" if you see it all in order for the first time.

However, if Luke is Anakin's son, and Anakin was Obi-Wan's obvious first apprentice, then when did Obi-Wan train this pupil of his, Darth Vader, that killed Anakin like Obi-Wan said had happened?

It can't be after Anakin died, because he then had to be alive to father Luke.

So if Obi-Wan trained someone that killed Anakin after he fathered Luke, when would Obi-Wan get the time?

There are 2 conclusions:

1) Anakin actually IS Darth Vader and we think Obi-Wan is lying right from the get-go before we ever see ESB, meaning Anakin is still alive...

or

2) While Anakin left the Jedi Order, Obi-Wan trained a new Padawan that turned to evil, and this padawan theory could have some credence (if we didn't already know the truth from ESB) because the padwan would be 17 by Episode 3 at the YOUNGEST, which is still old enough to be believed capable of taking out a 23 year old Anakin who never completed his training.

Theory 2 preserves some mystery until you see Empire Strikes Back

Theory 1 is the correct one. -and I think you knew that.

But because theory 2 CAN EXIST and still not be irrefutably denied until you watch Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, it supports my argument that Anakin quits or gets kicked out of the Jedi Order during the 4 years between E2 and E3 movies.

2-1B
06-05-2002, 08:27 PM
Why would you want the audience thinking that Obi-Wan is a liar? That really screws with the simple good guy / bad guy aspect of ANH.

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 08:31 PM
I still don't see it. I don't see Ben's little white lie to Luke being any kind of revelation that Anakin is Darth Vader. The intended audience will see Kenobi "kill" Anakin, and then tell Luke that the guy we saw at the beginning of ANH killed him. It's all about confirmation. Currently, Yoda is responsible for confirmation on Vader's identity.

My friends 8 year old son did not believe what Vader told Luke in ESB. He asked his dad if it was true.

Tycho
06-05-2002, 08:32 PM
1) He was a liar. (for a good reason)


2) You want the audience valuing him even more as a character: he has answers for Luke that we don't. We want to know what happened. To us, it looked like Obi-Wan's duel resulted in the death of Anakin. Now Obi-Wan is dead (at the hands of Vader - Lucas surely loves the irony) and Obi-Wan was the only one who could answer Luke's questions (until we learn that Yoda is still alive).

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Why would you want the audience thinking that Obi-Wan is a liar? That really screws with the simple good guy / bad guy aspect of ANH.

That is going to happen whether Anakin is confirmed Vader in E3 or not.

Beast
06-05-2002, 08:44 PM
Well, audiences thought he was a liar in ESB, once Vader revealed the truth to Luke anyway. But you guys seem to worry so much about E3 revealing that Anakin is Vader. Here are a couple points to consider. :)

1. If Anakin is revealed to be Vader in E3, instead of it being a massive shock to future audiences, that Vader reveals to Luke he's his father in ESB. They will feel Luke's shock more, instead of their shock. Sure it changes the dynamic..but it makes them feel Luke's pain more, cause they've known it since the ANH.

2. How many people actually watch the Godfather movies in order. Does anyone really watch Godfather II, before seeing the first one. Same will probably happen with Star Wars, they will be watched in the order they were made.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
06-05-2002, 08:51 PM
Godfather II was not made before Godfather I.

Lucas wants people to watch these 1-6. Not the order they were made in.

Jedi Clint
06-05-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Tycho

Lucas wants people to watch these 1-6. Not the order they were made in.

That's the way I read it.

It isn't about what you or I think when we watch the movies. It is what audiences 50 years from now will think. They are the intended audience.

2-1B
06-05-2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
That is going to happen whether Anakin is confirmed Vader in E3 or not.

How so? :confused:

I just watched the trilogy again this weekend, and knowing what I know from ESB and ROTJ I don't see how Ben is a liar. He deals with the issue delicately . . . and if I "see" Anakin's fall in E3 I will take that same compassion for Ben into ANH. :)


It isn't about what you or I think when we watch the movies. It is what audiences 50 years from now will think. They are the intended audience.

Then why do we watch the films? Why do we collect some merchandise? Why do we discuss the merits of the hobby here?
Why didn't George let me see AOTC for free since I'm not part of the intended audience?





Tycho
Lucas wants people to watch these 1-6. Not the order they were made in.

And he also wants you to watch only the Special Editions, since those are the "finished" versions. Will you recommend to future audiences that they never watch the original versions? Apparently George doesn't care about the surprises, maybe it's enough for him that the order in which he made the films offered the surprises for one or two generations (and future generations if we advise them to watch in order of release). So I understand why he is doing it this way.

Just because Ricky and Unca George want you to watch them in a certain order doesn't mean you have to. ;)

Jedi Clint
06-06-2002, 12:04 AM
You don't have to Caesar. But because he is making them for future generations to watch in order, he can (and my bet is will) make E3 in a way which preserves the confirmation of Vader's identity in ROTJ.

You say tomato:

So you think it is ok for Ben to twist the truth and break it to Luke easy? I think he told him only what he felt he had to at the time. Just because future audiences might feel Ben was a "liar" doesn't justify blowing the candles out early. They will then realize that Ben did what he had to at the time/told the truth from a certain point of view when they hear his explanation in ROTJ.

2-1B
06-06-2002, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
You don't have to Caesar. But because he is making them for future generations to watch in order, he can (and my bet is will) make E3 in a way which preserves the confirmation of Vader's identity in ROTJ.

Curious. For the past few years I feel I've been beaten over the head by George with the assumption that the prequels will show everything leading to the creation of Darth Vader, so I guess I always took these theories more as wishful thinking - but if you genuinely believe George will take this route, maybe it's possible. Don't get me wrong though, I like some of the ideas being posted on how to do it this way - I just don't think he'll do it. :D


You say tomato:

So you think it is ok for Ben to twist the truth and break it to Luke easy? I think he told him only what he felt he had to at the time. Just because future audiences might feel Ben was a "liar" doesn't justify blowing the candles out early. They will then realize that Ben did what he had to at the time/told the truth from a certain point of view when they hear his explanation in ROTJ.

That's fair, it comes down to our own perceptions. Watching ANH with the knowledge of ESB and ROTJ (the same knowledge that future audiences might have, depending on how this next film goes) I really don't see Ben as twisting the truth . . . sure he's softening the blow but I think he really believes Anakin is dead - and in the end he's wrong about that, but he did not lie about it.

Darth_Stevious
06-07-2002, 08:02 PM
I still don't understand why so many people want to preserve the "secret" that Anakin is Darth Vader. Yes it was a big shock to everyone in 1981 and many of us left the theater that day thinking that Vader was just lying to Luke so that he would turn to the Dark Side, but that was 21 years ago. All of the press about these prequels has never failed to mention the Anakin/Darth Vader connection. Lucas has never held back anything when talking about Anakin/Darth Vader being the same person. I just don't see it as that big of a secret or that big of a deal anymore.
On a side note, it is plain to see that these prequels are not really even designed to attract new fans. With all the references to elements and characters from the first films much of the public and the critics agree that you have to already be a Star Wars fan to really enjoy these films. So far neither of the new movies has been able to stand on their own in any way. In the OT only Star Wars (A New Hope) was written to stand alone, primarily due to GL's apprehension that it would be successful enough to make sequels. It is hard to believe that anyone (especially a child) would watch the new films and not rent the films of the OT and watch them all possibly in the same day. Therefore I don't think GL will go out of his way to preserve this "secret" at all.

Beast
06-07-2002, 08:08 PM
Plus, if Lucas was intending to try to keep the fact that Anakin grows up to be Darth Vader, why would Lucas make one of the movie posters actually show little Ani casting the shadow of Darth Vader. Or did almost everyone forget about that poster. Just take a look at Caeser's current avatar, if that will help remind ya. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

die-jarjar-die
06-07-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Tycho


If he blames Obi-Wan for not allowing him to prevent the death of his wife and unborn child, Palpatine will capitalize on this anger and use it to turn Anakin. He gave up everything for Padme and the chance to have a family since losing his own (his mother). Now that's taken away from him and he has nothing, but the Supreme Chancellor's patronage. Obi-Wan will come along - likely having learned the truth about Palpatine / Sidious, and by this time (as indicated by Anakin's tantrum in the Lars garage) young Skywalker will blame everything on Obi-Wan.

Why is that not the most obvious thing anybody ever thought of?

Do you think he turned to the Dark Side because his favorite team lost the SuperBowl?

His wife and unborn child were just reported murdered! Is that not his darkest hour?





Dude, I have been having the EXACT same arguments wit my friends IRL. Whilst watchin the movie it became completely obvious to me that Palpatine WILL use Anakins frustration at Obi Wans poor tutalage to lure Anakin in. As you pointed out, this net has already been cast, the scene in Palpies office comfirms this.

I had toyed with the idea that Padme would be killed off, but Im still not 100% sure whether Anakin will know he is a Father to be....

I was under the impression that Vaders 1st revelation that he was/is a father was during the Battle of Yavin, but GL has been known to change things to suit his needs so who knows?

I had kinda figured that Obi Wan would call for Anakins assistance & during that time Palpie would contact Anakin (as they r best buddys by this point & Anakin respects Palpys word more than Obi Wans) & be the bearer of the distressin news that in anakins absence Padme had died/ been murdered. This would surely be the final nail in the coffin. All he has fought for is lost, all he has loved is gone, all that remains is a "father figure" that he has little or no respect for who he can use as a scape goat for all his anger at being unable to prevent the death of his wife......

bigbarada
06-08-2002, 06:59 AM
Reading through this thread and the Mace's Death thread makes me realize that there will be an awful lot of disappointed people when Ep3 is released. I'm trying not to form too many opinions on how things "should" unfold as I don't want to taint my first viewing of Ep3 with preconceived notions.


BTW, in the original draft of ESB Vader is revealed to have fallen into a nuclear reactor not a volcano as is mentioned in the ROTJ novelization. It seems that it would be easier to find a nuclear reactor on Coruscant than a volcano. At least to me anyway. Check out the Annotated Screenplays for that info. If you pay attention to just how much of the original treatments of ESB got used for AOTC then you'll realize that there is probably more than one EP3 plotpoint in that book.

Darth Sinister
06-09-2002, 11:45 PM
All this talk about hiding the secret of Vader is insane!! I was going to bring up the teaser poster thing myself but I got beat to the punch. It is sad that future audiences that watch these movies in order will not have the same shock that we experienced over the "revelation", but the shock will be felt through Luke. Luke will need the final say from Yoda in ROTJ about Anakin, not us.

Episode 3 will have Vader at the end, and we will know that it is Anakin. These movies are about him....from his boyhood...to his early Jedi training...to his turn to the dark side....to his transformation to Vader....to his redemption. We are meant to see how all this happens. If they want to, however, they can keep Leia a secret from everyone at the end of 3.

Jedi Clint
06-09-2002, 11:54 PM
All this talk about spilling the beans is INSANE! :p The saga revolves around Anakin, but that doesn't mean that they will confirm who the man behind the mask is in 3.

Beast
06-09-2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
All this talk about spilling the beans is INSANE! :p The saga might revolve around Anakin, but that doesn't mean that they will confirm who the man behind the mask is in 3.
It doesn't mean they won't either. :p :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Jedi Clint
06-09-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

It doesn't mean they won't either. :p :D

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

I've always been willing to accept the possibility. I believe the other side of this argument expresses the most intolerance to the opposite point of view.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 12:16 AM
I agree with JediClint.

Besides that, I mean what do you guys want to see?

He'll breathe something that will destroy his lungs. So the body will have to be put on oxygen, similar to how people are done up in the hospital. He won't be able to get out of bed at first - w.o. a portable hook up to a small tank that rolls. You've seen older people have this and roll it around with them at malls or at the bus stop. Nothing real dramatic there.

Next, he may have 1 or more limbs cut off by lightsaber. Maybe. He doesn't need to have this to get his mechanical right arm - he already has it thanks to Dooku.

He will have cuts to the face and back of the head which you will see him get - more than likely, inflicted by Obi-Wan, possibly by Dooku.

We don't know if anything happens to his legs.

We don't know if anything happens to his left arm.

If anything does, he will not be able to walk or carry his portable oxygen tank around with him, even on wheels, unless it is a droid.
Still, he won't have any dexterity until he gets any limbs he needs replaced.

Finally, he will still be on oxygen until the Vader armor is complete. (Well, he's always on oxygen even after that, but you know what I'm getting at).

But if anything, this is beginning to look like General Hospital meets MacGuiver. Boring....

So here we have the scene everyone's been waiting for. Anakin on oxygen in a convalescent hospital tinkering at his workbench with Palpatine sending flowers at visitation hours.

OK - maybe not. Then a bacta tank scene followed by something like the Bionic Man:

"Subject: Anakin Skywalker, a critically injured Jedi Knight. Subject suffered irrecoverable trauma to the right arm, the legs, the lungs, the face, and the soul. Life expectancy, indeterminate. However, gentlemen, We have the technology to rebuild him. He will be faster, stronger, more powerful than ever before. He will be the 6 Million Dollar Maniac!"

Now, who will do this? A team of organic surgeons? An FX-7 and 21B droid? Palpatine's forseen everything and he's been studying medacine during the Clone Wars?

The bionic man scenerio is a little more exciting than the convalescent hospital patient with the temper tantrums.

But overall, it totally crushes the pace of the movie.

I don't know what you guys want to see, but please STATE IT.

Darth Sinister
06-10-2002, 12:26 AM
I apologize for not accepting the possibility, and I guess I could see your "point of view" except for one thing.........

Look at the teaser poster.......it gives away everything.

Years from now when people are looking at TPM DVD, if they get to nosey and look at the posters the first one they are going to see is little Anakin with the shadow of Vader. If Lucas was going to try to hide Vader's identity......he has already screwed up.

TPM soundtrack......Anakin's THEME.....Vader's breathing at the end. Things like this give it away immediately, the secret would never make it all the way till the end of ESB. Once the audience of the future sees Darth Vader, they are going to know who he is.

I have a very open mind.....and I also have very open eyes and ears. If GL wanted to keep the secret alive, he would have been more careful, he would not have given ANY clues as to the future outcome of Anakin to the future audience.

2-1B
06-10-2002, 12:31 AM
Something has to happen to his legs to add a few or more inches to that height! :D

I don't want to see any highly detailed montage of Vader getting his suit, I just assume George will cut from a duel to some other stuff of Obi hiding babies, chatting with Bail, or whatever the hell he will be doing (lighting the funeral pyres of many dead Jedi? :D ) and then he'll cut to Darth in full regalia. Without any mysteries, it'll probably be pretty clear. There might be a few shots of him being fitted, but nothing extensive.

Clint, I apologize if I've ever come across as intolerant of your position, it was never my intent. Like I said recently, I don't base my predictions concerning what will happen on my preferences, rather I labor under the comments that George made that we will be seeing Anakin's full transformation. :)

Jedi Clint
06-10-2002, 12:32 AM
Sinister,

All those things you mention (from the films) are hints. Hinting and confirmation are two entirely seperate methods of character exposition. I champion the hint but do not confirm philosophy. That poster will not be very accessible to the general public 5, 10, 50 years from now.

Jedi Clint
06-10-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Caesar
Something has to happen to his legs to add a few or more inches to that height! :D

I don't want to see any highly detailed montage of Vader getting his suit, I just assume George will cut from a duel to some other stuff of Obi hiding babies, chatting with Bail, or whatever the hell he will be doing (lighting the funeral pyres of many dead Jedi? :D ) and then he'll cut to Darth in full regalia. Without any mysteries, it'll probably be pretty clear. There might be a few shots of him being fitted, but nothing extensive.

Clint, I apologize if I've ever come across as intolerant of your position, it was never my intent. Like I said recently, I don't base my predictions concerning what will happen on my preferences, rather I labor under the comments that George made that we will be seeing Anakin's full transformation. :)

No worries Caesar. Where did Lucas say, "We will see Anakin's full transformation."? I don't remember reading anything like that.

Darth Sinister
06-10-2002, 12:52 AM
What I would like to see:

The battle of Anakin and Obi-Wan is over and the Jedi are on the run. Ben and Yoda got in seperate directions with a "May the force be with you"....it may or may not be revealed that there are twins. Ben says something about knowing the perfect place, a place Anakin would never want to return to.

The end shows Palpatine talking to a figure in the shadows....you hear some medical devices in the background. Palpy is talking about how Anakin wanted to be the most powerful Jedi....look at what they have done to you and the republic and to your mother and precious wife.

Palpy then asks a technician is everything complete....the tech says yes Emperor and then the "Breathing" begins. Then, still in the shadows, we see the helmet lowering ala ESB.

The Emperor tells him "Now, fullfill your destiny and bring balance to the force.....destroy the Jedi...all of them". Then, all we can see is an outline of Vader and the lights of the control box......he ignits his red lightsaber and says "As you wish, my master" or "yes, my master". Palpy is giving us that evil laugh...Vader walks toward the screen.....the end.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 12:55 AM
Not to mention, we are not talking about having a new generation of viewers explore the DVD extras first.

We are talking about them sitting down and watching each movie, one after the other, for 12 hours. Or at least coming back to them in that way.

If you've never seen ESB and ROTJ at least, and had these things on DVD with extras, would you play the ESB extras first, or watch ROTJ to see if they rescue Han?

He is making it possible to view 12 hours of the movies, without regard to looking at extras, paying too much attention to the credits - and in which case after watching TPM and hearing the breathing - you wouldn't know who or what that noise was if you were still going to be surprised by Darth Vader's appearance.

So that point is moot.

And I appologize if I sound kind of ...er mean or something, too. I am merely frustrated because I didn't state my point clearly enough perhaps.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 01:00 AM
Darth Sinister, while I agree with you that those are exactly the kinds of things Palpatine might say to Anakin, I think they'd be too revealing and happen 'off-screen.'

Plus there's a whole bunch of the guys out there that want to see Vader fight and kill a few Jedi. I think that's what making prominent extras out of Ki-Adi Mundi and Plo Koon is all about.

Providing Vader with his first victims.



BTW, the James Earl Jones interview where he said Lucas told him it would only be less than 5 minutes of dialogue does not mean Vader will appear only 5 minutes in the film.

He's not a talkative guy. Darth Maul had probably a minute's worth of dialogue, but maybe 14 minutes in the movie.

Just something to remember. They only need James Earl Jones when Vader is speaking. So yeah - all his lines could be said in 5 minutes or less.

Darth Sinister
06-10-2002, 01:13 AM
I understand your feelings guys.....I guess what I am doing is trying to understand it from the perspective of a writer.

If I am trying to keep a secret about a persons identity and want total and complete shock value regarding a future revelation, the last thing I'm going to do is leave such obvious clues. Do you think when Lucas had that poster made he thought...gee, I hope nobody sees this. No....because he isn't trying to keep it a secret. If he is, then it's a pathetic way to do it.

The confirmation of Vader is not for us, it's for Luke. Lucas would never insult the viewer by making them wait till the final movie to tell us what should be obvious after 3. Confirmation is the final word, true, but it isn't needed here.

Jedi Clint
06-10-2002, 01:16 AM
Tycho,

I thought the J.E.J bit went something like: I asked George if he would need my in the prequels and he said, "Probably for the last 5 minutes of Episode 3 when he goes bionic." or something like that.

You bring up an excellent point. Everything that happens to the main characters does not happen on screen. We are missing 10 years of their lives in between TPM and AOTC, not to mention the assorted moments that the movies' attention shifts focus from one character's adventures to the next.

Darth Sinister
06-10-2002, 01:18 AM
BTW, I love to debate things....if I should ever get personal and offend anyone, let me know and I'll give you a Jorge Sacul figure or something. After this post of course....hehe!

Jedi Clint
06-10-2002, 01:28 AM
Sinister,

I don't doubt that Lucas intended to draw audiences to the character of Anakin Skywalker in TPM with the teaser poster. I don't think he is currently trying to keep the secret. I think that in telling the story of E3 in relation to the rest of the saga, he can easily avoid confirmation of Vader's identity by not including:

Anyone calling Vader "Anakin".
Anyone calling Anakin "Vader".
A sequence showing him being fitted with the suit.

Anything short of those events is a hint.

Once again, the teaser poster will not be available for the general public to see post E3, and in fact it isn't that wide spread now. In this and other SW communities you'd be hard pressed to find someone that hasn't seen it, but my friend's son saw TESB for the first time recently after viewing TPM and he was in complete disbelief and shock when Vader told Luke the truth. That will be the norm of reactions from children and adults alike when the watch these films in order for their first time. The hype machine will die after E3 has come and gone. It amazes me when I think of the amount of people I know who haven't seen ANY of the SW movies.

Darth Sinister
06-10-2002, 02:13 AM
I love this!!!!!......I can understand a child not knowing from TPM that Anakin becomes Vader (even if you keep the clues hidden). Anakin is a sweet little boy. Fast forward to AOTC, whiney kid who kills "?" number of Tuskens out of revenge, disobeys the Jedi by marrying Padme. Go to Ep 3, Anakin and Obi-Wan fight because he has turned his back on the Jedi, who knows who else he might kill.

How hard would it be to believe then?

Question: How many Sith are lining up at the door? Maul and Sidious crept up because the Sith were believed to be non-exitistant. Dooku left the Jedi and became a Sith in seclusion. Dooku dies of unknown causes presently and Anakin is "killed" by Obi-Wan. Vader came from where? Was he waiting in the red room holding lucky number 4? With only one movie to work with you can't have Sithlords coming out of the wood work. He would have one alive, one hiding in the back while at the same time trying to turn the chosen one to the dark side. That's overkill.

We know there will be a Vader at the end. It takes away from the set up of these movies to not show Anakin become Vader. Does Palpatine have to say "Anakin Skywalker, I now dub thee Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader". Believe me, everyone will know at the end who Vader is.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 04:40 AM
No. He could be Obi-Wan's second apprentice if you don't know any better.

"How did my father die?"

"A YOUNG JEDI, WHO WAS A PUPIL OF MINE BEFORE HE TURNED TO EVIL, helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

Since Obi-Wan has no apprentice BEFORE Anakin, it must be the new Jedi (Liam?) that he is training after Anakin leaves the Jedi Order because he married Padme and quits on principle to be able to always protect her (and his unborn child). Thus since she stays in the Senate, he will find himself in the occupation of serving Palpatine like a(n) (ex)Jedi advisor to the Supreme Chancellor.

At the beginning of the movie, the Clone Wars are devastating the Republic and Obi-Wan and his new padawan (17 years old) are trapped behind enemy lines while Obi-Wan is serving as a general in charge of Clone Troopers.

His Padawan will be lost to him (after 5 - 10 minutes into the movie) and he'll be stranded, perhaps without communications. His Jedi bond to his former padawan, Anakin (23 yrs old) will be his only way to call for help. Or he will get a transmission out. That he needs Anakin to help him confront Dooku and restore balance to the Force.

Anakin will help him kill Dooku with some amazing work using the Dark Side of the Force. Then the younger ex-Jedi will have to take off because he'll next have to rush back to Coruscant to save his wife and unborn child. He won't make it in time (so Palpatine will tell him). He'll blame it on Obi-Wan and Jedi-business always causing him to lose the ones he loves.

Obi-Wan will be told by the dying Dooku that the Count had infiltrated the Sith to destroy them from within, but had been corrupted by the Dark Side and double-crossed by his Master. So Dooku's revenge will be to tell Obi-Wan that Palpatine is Darth Sidious.

Anakin will be protecting Palpatine when Obi-Wan comes to finish his business with the Sith in totality. Anakin will already be angry with him and in anguish over the death of Padme (SHE IS NOT DEAD YET - BUT HE THINKS SO - GET IT? Duh....) Palpatine will be the only comfort, purpose Anakin has left and here's that damned Obi-Wan come to kill him off too. Anakin won't believe him and they'll fight. Anakin will be jealous of how the new padawan replaced him perhaps. The audience won't like that either. They also might think the new padawan (because of something he said earlier in the movie) was always jealous of Anakin.

Anakin will give up in the fight with Obi-Wan. He has no more cause to live for if all the people in his life he cared for are dead or manipulative liars. He'll LET Obi-Wan strike him down in a way... but Obi-Wan will disarm him and then try to save him. "Come with Me...."

[Obi-Wan once thought as you do....(to Luke in ROTJ)]

Obi-Wan will not be able to save Anakin and it will appear that he's either dead or left dying. Shadows may fall on his wounded body or something of that nature.

The younger Padawan could have then stepped in, following Obi-Wan (his master) and killed Anakin (the cause of his jealousy)

COULD HAVE - EXCEPT THAT THIS PADAWAN DID DIE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MOVIE - BUT YOU AREN'T SHOWN THAT WITH CERTAINTY! - so Vader could be Obi-Wan's pupil that turned to evil, but we later find out in ESB that it's more likely Vader is Anakin. In ROTJ it is confirmed.

I know NO spoilers, but this is the only way that Lucas could do this. Mark my words, if you here of some big deal like "Josh Hartnet" or whoever is cast as a Jedi Apprentice for Episode 3, or the official site makes some big deal about a Jedi cast member, this will be some actor that gets as much screen time as Zam Wessel, and is killed off just as fast. But he will be Obi-Wan's second apprentice.

Open your minds and consider how this works. Ask yourself if it can, Not if it's what YOU want it to be.

Logic doesn't have any care or consideration for your particular tastes as a fan - duh...

Ask yourself if this plotline is logical, not whether you like it.

Now comment on whether it is logical, and whether you like it.

2-1B
06-10-2002, 06:15 AM
Jedi Clint, the Lucas-speak I refer to doesn't address the Vader suit in particular. :) Rather, he's always going on about how the prequels show how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader. Yes, they can do that without showing the suit, but there can not be any questions left as to whether or not Anakin has turned to the Dark Side. If they leave his ultimate fate a mystery, then the things we see that led him to that end (i.e. Tusken slaughter) are just examples of bad things he's done in his life. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin, and presumably dying, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
Palpatine will be revealed as the Emperor, I think it's safe to assume that we will see Anakin join his side. Without question, he is now evil. Again, they don't have to call him Darth and we can see him as a Sith Lord without the suit. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin AND joining the Emperor and presumably dying after he has clearly turned to evil, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
In ANH when Ben tells Luke about the apprentice betraying and murdering, it will be so ridiculously obvious that nothing like that literally happened. The audience (if watching 1 - 6 ) will have witnessed Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, so how the heck could another apprentice of Obi-Wan's turn to evil and betray and murder the other apprentice who turned to evil? :confused:

Tycho, per your request your words have been marked! :D
I would apply the above statements to your theories on the additional apprentice as well. Yes, I understand that we don't hear Luke Skywalker until the detention block, but after watching Episode II and seeing Anakin's stepbrother, the same man Luke calls uncle, there is no way the audience will not know before the credits roll on ANH. So the "surprise" of ESB is already gone before we even get to Hoth.

If that qualifies as a hint, I respect the position. But I think it's above hint level . . .

Episode III will have to convince me that Obi-Wan had an apprentice who turned to evil and killed another apprentice who turned to evil (the same one -Anakin- who was his good friend even while he was evil). :sur:

bigbarada
06-10-2002, 09:01 AM
I think it will be handled like the Sidious/Palpatine thing has been handled in Ep1 and 2. The attentive viewer will be able to piece things together before ESB; but the one who has spent all of his time staring at the set pieces and background aliens will be in the dark.

I don't really forsee a Rambo-esque montage of Anakin donning the Vader suit, but I don't think GL will want audiences to be disappointed after the credits role on Ep3.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 02:46 PM
Well what is evil?

What would Anakin's motivations be for being evil?

Does Anakin want to become evil?

Would a second Jedi Apprentice of Obi-Wan's WANT to become evil?

The answers to the last 2 questions are a resounding 'no.'

You will not see Anakin Skywalker as a Sith Lord without the suit, or as a malicious person who wants to do evil.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

What does 'turning to the Dark Side' mean?

Does that ultimately imply you want to take over the entire galaxy and control everything?

Isn't it safe to say that all Anakin wants to do is be a protective husband and a good father?

Is seeking revenge evil? Holding a grudge and a malicious intent to 'pay someone back' for what you perceive they've done to you evil?

Do you need to wear a costume and declare your allegiance to anything or anyone at all to take revenge? Is there a special uniform you wear or some club you must join into?

If it's revenge for Shmi's death, do you think Anakin would go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan if he blamed him (then)? OK

Now if it's Padme's perceived death, and the death of his unborn child, do you think there will be some big time lapse during the movie where Anakin decides he wants revenge and then goes into Sith training to destroy all of the Jedi as payback, or do you think that all the Star Wars movies take place within a week in the life of the characters, and there isn't time for such a thing?

So it is a moment of passion and a bad judgement call to turn on Obi-Wan? (goaded by Palpatine reinforcing Anakin's prejudices when he asks the good Chancellor - not the Sith Lord as far as he knows) - for advice?

Do you think that taking revenge is evil? How about trying to kill your father-figure?

What does that have to do with having time to go out and kill Jedi you never even met before? (there are 10,000 some Jedi - many who have heard of you being a Jedi as well). Where does your personal problem get resolved by taking over the galaxy? Why would you care to help some guy who's got this big plan to conquer everything anyway? What does galactic politics have to do with you and your personal pain over the loss of your family?

If it's the Separatists who are obviously blameable, then why not strike back at them? OK, but AFTER you lost your wife? Then AFTER striking at the Separatists you're still in that moment of passion where you'd turn on your father? (Obi-Wan as the father figure?) The moment of passion is lost if Anakin doesn't confront Obi-Wan immediately after he believes he lost Padme.

Finally, why fight to the death about it? Because you're so impassioned and filled with hate that you can't control your impulse to strike out! Second, if your job is to protect the Chancellor and here's some guy you already have a personal problem with coming to pronouce the Chancellor as some evil supernatural and slay him, would you fight? Heck yeah!

Lucas told Jake Lloyd that Anakin/Vader is not an evil character. Life deals him terrible blows and he reacts out of frustration and with passion but no thought. He can't "just wish away his feelings."

Anakin is not going to be running around doing evil things just for the heck of it.

1) he might learn unconventional uses of the Force - like lightning - from a Sith holocron or experimentation while he's dropped out of the Jedi Order. He'll use these powers against Dooku and the Separatists. It's war, right?

2) He might command some clones or Republic soldiers and use the Force to help them conquer.

3) He might use the Force to choke or 'persuade' Palpatine's political opponents "to see Palpatine's point of view." Or that of his wife's, SENATOR Amidala.

4) He will turn on Obi-Wan and try to kill his former master in a fit of frustration and uncontrollable grief and rage.

He has no plans to take over the galaxy or force himself into anyone else's lives who hasn't invovled themselves in his own. Anakin is a practical guy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now how about Obi-Wan's second apprentice?

[first, he is not evil, and not on the Dark Side...ok?]

[second, it will be made to look like he could be.]


1) All he's heard about for 4 years is how he'll never be better than his master's first apprentice.

2) He might be (think) he's been abandoned by Obi-Wan who calls in Anakin to help him face Dooku - if it's shown that this 2nd Apprentice is still alive at this point. I personally think he'll be dead by then, but possibly dying and trying to call Obi-Wan for help.

3) Jealousy and revenge are motivations for doing something evil, like killing the cause of those feelings (as he perceives Anakin)

Therefore it's set up quite naturally.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you guys want to see? Anakin pulling wings off of flies? Him killing Jedi because he doesn't like the way they look at him - or because he thinks THEY kept him from Padme? Isn't Obi-Wan the Jedi most directly involved in Anakin's life. That's where his anger will focus. And don't you want to see Anakin fight at Obi-Wan's side (versus Dooku) once more? Why would he go off on a mission with SaeSee Tiin, especially if he's left the Jedi Order?

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 06:26 PM
anakin's fall i think is due to things beyond his control that he wants to try to control anyway. yes, he will start to use forbidden knowledge to further his abilities. who will take notice of this? other jedi, who then try to stop him. at first i think he will be killing jedi because they come after him, trying to stop him from doing what he believes is right. no one considers themselves evil. did hitler say "man, i am really evil!" probably not (cause i never knew him, i can't say he actually didn't.) anakin will think he's working for the common good (ending this destructive conflict?) and then here are these jedi that cast him away just for loving someone, and now they want to stop him from doing this too? well, he has to finish what he starts, and he has to defend himself to do that... to the death if need be.

Tycho
06-10-2002, 07:03 PM
Maybe Darthvyn.

I did what I asked others to do for my theories. I carefully considered your theory.

In the comics, when it was discovered that Sharad Hett was living amongst the Tuskens and had taken up their fight, it was decided that a Jedi who did not know him (Ki Adi Mundi) should go, and not Sharad Hett's former Jedi Master, Eeth Koth. It was said that Eeth Koth would be too emotionally close to the issues.

That being said in the EU, I'll compare it to Anakin's story. Would the Jedi send or decide not to send, Obi-Wan to handle this?

If they would not send Obi-Wan, because he'd be too emotionally close to the issue, then your theory holds some water.

But would Anakin have so much invested in galactic politics (ending the Secession?) that he'd commit to passionately using the Dark Side? And if he is fighting, for Palpatine, is the Chancellor pledging protection for Anakin's wife? That could make some sense.

If Obi-Wan was with Anakin, he'd not be using the Dark Side such that it would be required for other Jedi to be sent after him. So Anakin still must be out of the Jedi Order, having quit. Obi-Wan could still have a new padawan, then be called in to handle the trouble caused by his former one, while his new apprentice is killed (presumed dead in something that happens off screen).

I presume all this, because if Obi-Wan was with Anakin when he was using the Force inappropriately, then they'd be fighting a whole lot earlier. The Obi-Wan / Anakin duel must have major consequences or it will be no big deal. If Anakin then fights other Jedi after this, it cheapens the severity of the duel with Obi-Wan. So are there 2 duels with Obi-Wan, and then even another one with Vader? There's a lot of other things that need to happen in this movie besides lightsaber duels.

So the part of your theory as you expressed it, I'll acknowledge as possible. It might even make an interesting diversion in the movie - seeing Anakin lead the Republic Clones or something. But the latter 2/3 of my story setup still has to stand with that, to remain being logical.

darthvyn
06-10-2002, 08:58 PM
i'm not really even saying in what capacity he is using his powers... just the fact that he is using dark side powers is enough for the jedi to say, uh let's get a leash on this kid...

Jedi Clint
06-10-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Jedi Clint, the Lucas-speak I refer to doesn't address the Vader suit in particular. :) Rather, he's always going on about how the prequels show how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader. Yes, they can do that without showing the suit, but there can not be any questions left as to whether or not Anakin has turned to the Dark Side. If they leave his ultimate fate a mystery, then the things we see that led him to that end (i.e. Tusken slaughter) are just examples of bad things he's done in his life. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin, and presumably dying, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
Palpatine will be revealed as the Emperor, I think it's safe to assume that we will see Anakin join his side. Without question, he is now evil. Again, they don't have to call him Darth and we can see him as a Sith Lord without the suit. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin AND joining the Emperor and presumably dying after he has clearly turned to evil, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
In ANH when Ben tells Luke about the apprentice betraying and murdering, it will be so ridiculously obvious that nothing like that literally happened. The audience (if watching 1 - 6 ) will have witnessed Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, so how the heck could another apprentice of Obi-Wan's turn to evil and betray and murder the other apprentice who turned to evil? :confused:

Thank you Caesar. I appreciate your consideration in regards to my position in this discussion.

I think there is a difference between:
"Show how Anakin becomes Darth Vader."
and
"Show Anakin become Darth Vader."

It could be taken that Obi Wan is lying to Luke to keep his trust and respect so he'll follow him off world. Then in ESB the bad guy tells us he is Anakin, and in ROTJ Yoda confirms it, then old Ben shows up and explains his "certain point of view". It may be a pretty big hint, but it would still be a hint.

Darth_Stevious
06-10-2002, 09:49 PM
Tycho, I like some of your theories. I understand how important you feel the secret of Darth Vader's identity is to you. I may not share your opinion on that, but I respect your motivation to secure that same shocked excitement that we all felt for future viewers. There is one thing that I do have to disagree with you on. That is Anakin and the Dark Side.

I believe that Anakin will not and does not need to chose to turn to the Dark Side. I think it is a gradual process. He doesn't have to have evil intentions. They could actually be noble intentions. However, he will give in to the Dark Side more and more, just as he did with the Tuskens. The Dark Side is a slippery slope. Once you start down the path to the Dark Side it is easier and easier to use it. Yoda saw this possibility in Anakin right away. He saw Anakin's fear and as we all know he demonstrated how fear is the path to the Dark Side. Let's look at the path laid out by Yoda step by step and compare it to Anakin's own story.

Fear: Yoda saw this in Anakin in E1. Anakin was a young child pulled away from his mother and taken to a strange city and put on display in front of a bunch of serious looking people (and creatures too for that matter).

Anger: We have seen Anakin show anger several times. His first angry outburst was in Padme's chambers on Coruscant when he complained that Obi-Wan was holding him back. His most notable display of anger was, of course, on Tattooine. Anakin watched his mother die in his arms and struck out in anger (read RAGE) and slaughtered the Tuskens.

Hate: Anakin expressed hatred for the Tuskens and used that as a reason for why he slaughtered them. Is it too far a reach to say that something may occur in E3 that may cause Anakin to hate the Jedi Order? This could possibly be a reaction to being expelled from the Jedi Order for marrying Padme. This hatred could easily be fostered by Palpatine to push Anakin further along.

Suffering: The last step to the Dark Side. We all agree that Anakin will face suffering, both physical and mental. We also know that Palpatine could easily use this suffering to fully bring Anakin to join him and fulfill his "Destiny". Could Anakin's emotional suffering be caused by believing that Padme and his unborn child(ren) have been killed while he was away from them? Could be. Could his physical suffering be caused by Obi-Wan or maybe even by Dooku in a saber duel? Could be.

Anakin could very well turn to the Dark Side and join Sidious in his quest to destroy the Jedi Order. This could be done without revealing the Anakin/Vader connection in much the same way the Palpatine/Sidious connection has been concealed. All the audience would have to see is a hooded figure in a dark cloak singling out and killing Jedi. In the end we can see Anakin "killed" in a duel with Obi-Wan because of a heated argument, possibly Anakin's long held belief that Obi-Wan had been holding him back deliberately out of jealousy. The argument could even be over a more sensitive topic such as Obi-Wan kept Anakin from going to Padme's side when he felt she was in danger, much as he did when he felt his mother was in danger, resulting in Padme's death. You never know, it could happen. We could see Obi-Wan "kill" Anakin in their duel and watch as his body falls into a chasm full of chemical gasses. Obi-Wan would then leave shaken and disturbed as a shadowy figure slips in and begin to descend a stairway towards the fallen Jedi while the scene fades to another part of the story. In the end we could see Palpatine/Sidious standing in the throne room. He turns to great a uniformed medical officer who says something to the effect of "He is ready My Lord'. Palpatine/Sidious replies "Send him in."
A very familiar dark figure steps into the room and kneels before Palpatine/Sidious and says "What is your biding my master?"
Palpatine/Sidious responds "Rise. Rise my young apprentice."
Darth Vader rises to his full height before his master.
"Now go and fulfill your destiny. Destroy the Jedi and rid this Universe of their deceitful ways."
Vader turns to face the camera and says "As you wish, my master."
The screen begins to fade to black as the audience hears the all too familiar mechanical breathing of the Dark Lord of the Sith him self.
Not too far fetched. This allows for Anakin/Vader to be personally involved in the Jedi purge without ever actually showing his identity to the audience. It also allows for the Vader suit that we all know and love to make an appearance at the end that will leave us all breathless. I see it as the best of both worlds. I don't think itís too far fetched. You never know. It could happen. ;)

Tycho
06-10-2002, 10:36 PM
Darth_Stevious, I don't think you and I disagree as much as you think.

What you described could work as well. If it has not changed much from your earlier theories or expectations, than you phrased it better this time and I understood you more.

What I agree with you on is that I also don't believe Anakin "chooses" to join the Dark Side. More likely he'll realize too late what he's become and how he's using it, then he'll defend it's advantages over being patient, less agressive in treating the universe's problems, etc.

I think I was trying to illustrate what a key sign the turning point would be for those who think there's going to be some signature moment, where he'll say "I'll take the Dark Side for double-down at 500, Alex." I think that people are uncomfortable possibly because the Dark Side is in all of us. You don't have to join the Al-Queida Terrorists to become a badguy. You can start doing bad things and rationalize them. Soon it gets easier to do worse and worse things. I suppose murder is worse than rape, and rape is worse than kidnapping, but once you rationalize or reach to establish that you can get away with kidnapping, it becomes a slippery slope down to the rest of these sins. As this nation is watching a sad trial following a very unfortunate death of a young girl, we can also see how the murder and the hidden body is intended to erase all the evil and wrong doing. Getting rid of the evidence is supposed to erase the fact that there ever was a crime? Wrong. But whoever is guilty of that murder definitely thought so.

2-1B
06-11-2002, 12:59 AM
Hi everyone. :)

Tycho, I never assumed that we will see Anakin run around, slaying Jedi en masse. Ben said that Darth Vader helped the Empire hunt down the Jedi Knights. I don't know why Sam Jackson needs to tell everyone that "all the Jedi die" in E3 because it's just not necessary. Most of that can happen in the years after, and Ben's story about that fact in ANH will explain what happened to the surviving Jedi of Episode III.

I agree that Anakin will not just "choose" the Dark Side, we've seen him slip down that slope already. Something will happen in Episode III that makes him aware that he has gone too far, too far to turn back. But ultimately he will embrace his fate. A classic tragedy, the fall from grace of a once good person.
You asked alot of provocative questions, nice job! If by Epsiode III Anakin has left the Order (not for the Dark Side quite yet) I really doubt the Council would allow Obi-Wan a new apprentice so quickly. Their focus should be on getting Anakin back, heck Mace seems willing to go out of his way to give Anakin the chance to fulfill the prophecy.
Can I ask if you have any thoughts you care to share regarding my theory as it concerns Uncle Owen? Thanks :)

Jedi Clint, I thought of you today :D while watching some more of the TPM DVD commentary. During Ani's farewell to his mother scene, Lucas talks about how the purpose of that scene vs. Luke leaving with Ben is to have the films "ryhme" as he so often talks about (he also makes references to Jazz music). Anyway, he said the audience will see Luke's father leave and take the wrong path. So by the time the audience gets to Episode IV, they can expect Luke to take the same path as his father. Only he goes the other way. To me that confirms that he does intend for a 1-6 viewing (I knew that but I don't agree that's how a new audience should watch it) and it suggests to me that he plans on going all out with the story, leaving no question that when we hear Beru call, "Luke, Luke" that he is Anakin/Vader's son. I know it's not a concrete confirmation, but it's the impression I get.
I don't know if you've viewed the movie with commentary, so I want to throw that out there for your consideration. :)

Jedi Clint
06-11-2002, 01:59 AM
I should really watch my PM DVD extras someday. Thanks Caesar :D. I'm of the opinion that we will know that Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker when we see him for the first time in ANH. It is (partly) because of Mace's faith in Anakin despite Kenobi's apprehension, that I believe they will try to keep Skywalker in the fold at all costs. It is Anakin that will distance himself from the Jedi. He may even score the "General" rank during the clone wars (as Obi Wan and Yoda did).....a title that would seem to answer more to the Chancellor than to the Jedi Council. Whether that happens or not, I see the clone wars and Anakin's excellent service during that conflict as the catalyst that strengthens the relationship between Palpatine and Anakin, and destroys his relationship with the Jedi.

What was your theory on Owen?

2-1B
06-11-2002, 02:21 AM
:cool: Clint, I was just talking about this part of my post as it relates to Owen:

"Yes, I understand that we don't hear Luke Skywalker until the detention block, but after watching Episode II and seeing Anakin's stepbrother, the same man Luke calls uncle, there is no way the audience will not know before the credits roll on ANH. So the "surprise" of ESB is already gone before we even get to Hoth."

But you already answered that part with your current post. :)

And Tycho, I've gathered your thoughts on that question too, because I just read your post in the other thread where you said Luke might be a nephew of Owen's via someone other than Anakin. Are you still in favor of that theory? :)

Tycho
06-11-2002, 03:00 AM
Ceasar, thanks for the compliment.

Now to your questions.

I do think the Council will give Obi-Wan another Padwan that quickly for several reasons:

1) he'll need a distraction as well as to function as a team with another Jedi again -after Anakin left him. It is for Obi-Wan's healing, too.

2) the Jedi are supposedly apprenticed at age 13. Presumably there are enough Knights waiting to become Masters, except then a good number of them are getting killed on Geonosis and in other conflicts with the Separatists. They'll need every capable "Master."

3) In terms of the plot, it makes a possible alternative for Vader's identity for the clueless or young and entertainable who watch these in order for the very first time!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to Owen....

Did you notice there were 3 graves when Shmi was burried. I presume the first one was Shmi's. The next one could have been Cliegg Lars' previous wife - Owen's mother. Then there was a little one. This indicated that a baby or child had died? Owen had a brother or a sister? It wasn't important to the movie to explain. Neither was it important to the movie to state that Owen Lars didn't have another sibling. Luke could be that sibling's son. Finally, does Beru Whitesun have any brothers or sisters? While AOTC didn't need to go into a 15 minute documentary on the Whitesuns, it also didn't say Beru was an only child.

You were a child when you saw Star Wars. So was I. I thought something was wrong with Luke's father to make Owen that upset about him "Luke's too much like his father..../ THAT'S WHAT I'M AFRAID OF." He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool's idealistic crusade like your father did."

So I thought Luke's dad might have been reckless, but not evil. Not Darth Vader. I thought Luke's dad was everything Luke dreamt of being - only Luke dreamt of being even better!

I thought his recklessness was what got him killed by Vader.

NOW, if I were watching these for my first time in order, with the mind of a child, and I heard "I'm Luke Skywalker, I'm here to rescue you!" I'd think Luke was Anakin's son and Obi-Wan lied about what happened to his father, because I saw how Obi-Wan was involved in it. But I don't think suspicion would enter my mind even when Yoda was going on "Powerful Jedi was he....powerful Jedi. -I'm not afraid! You will be....you will be!"

There's enough in Anakin's sorted past that tells me Luke could experience that, but it still doesn't tell me that Anakin is still alive and walks as Darth Vader. Not until Vader tells us so himself!

Powerful moment that is! Powerful moment!

stillakid
06-11-2002, 03:52 AM
First, I'd like to say that it's refreshing to see so many people who think like me finally! :)

Also, this is a large thread so I admit that I skimmed the last page of posts. I don't mean to repeat anything that has already been mentioned.

For the most part, I'm with Tycho, yet Clint's "counter-points" are more along my line of thinking. In particular, the Anakin "divine birth" thing. While it's stupid, I believe that Lucas was just trying to be clever and parallel the Christ birth thing. Nothing more, nothing less. His writing skills aren't sufficient enough to build such a complicated plot and develop the characters in such a way as to pull anything convoluted off.

The end of Ep III has to end with Anakin merely appearing to die (final shot of him has him lying there and his eyes flutter shut) before Obi Wan leaves.

Also we cannot see both babies, Luke and Leia. We can know of the birth, but not see babies or hear the words "twins" or "babies." We also should not see any baby deliveries to Tatooine or any such silliness. Doing so WILL ruin the revelations in the OT.

I've been toting this idea for a couple weeks now and this is it: George isn't changing the rules of the game with the Prequels, he's changing the game itself! What does this mean? It means that the OT was meant as a large scale epic describing the events of a Republic which was corrupted from the inside out and the subsequent Rebellion to return the Republic to it's full glory. Now this next part is vitally important to this discussion: To tell this grand saga, Lucas uses the details of several divergent elements like the Anakin downfall/redemption, the Solo/Leia love affair, the Luke/Han brotherhood, the Droid perspective, the Luke/father reunion, etc. All of these elements are just that: ELEMENTS! They are not the story, but small pieces of the story. So the Vader downfall and Redemption is NOT the story of the Original Trilogy, rather just another piece of it.

The Prequels are changing the game so that "the story" is no longer about the galactic struggle to return the Republic, rather Lucas has pulled one element of the bigger story out and is turning the saga into a tale about that.

So what about that teaser poster? Two things. In regards to my "theory" above, if it is now all about Anakin's downfall/redemption, then Lucas has no intention of creating any drama or mystery anymore is willing to spill the beans whenever and whereever his poor writing skills feel like it.

Secondly, from a marketing standpoint, Lucas didn't trust that the audience was still there 20 odd years later. Banking on the general public awareness of "Darth Vader," it only made sense to link the new movie(s) to an well-known image from society's "nostaligic" brain cells. This entire Prequel is being built on what Lucas feels is "safe" and familiar because he doesn't trust in his ability to create an original enough story to attract the audience again. Ergo, the number of well-known movie-stars and his use of "fan favorite" elements (like Fett) in the Prequels. Lucas is scared of losing money, just like a Studio Head which he ironically claims to be the opposite of.

Anyway, as Tycho says, so much of this seems like common-sense, in terms of writing a cohesive logical story, that you honestly wonder sometimes whether or not the "opposing side" really thinks through their arguments at all. There is an understandable reaction to want to believe that George has it together.

We've been asked to keep the faith and believe that Lucas knows what he's doing. Maybe he does. The true answer to that won't be known until we get those coveted revisionist OT DVD's. But based on what we've seen thus far, my faith in his judgment has been shaken. This may be his story by pure copyright, but that doesn't mean he can't screw it up.

Tycho
06-11-2002, 06:27 AM
Thanks for the compliments, Stillakid, and while I'd like to wish we did agree on everything in this thread, I have to face the truth.

We still disagree on what the story was all about. Did we settle this in our last debate or not?

You said it was about the Rebellion to restore the Republic against the tyranny of an Empire, and I said it was always the focus to center on the Skywalker family, set against the war as a backdrop.

I think you then said that Lucas declared it to be that (Anakin's story) during his Leonard Malton interviews on the THX release tapes (last time for the original trilogy without 'special additions').

I think I said that there is no proof that George said it was something else sometime earlier and demanded to know where this proof was, and how come Palpatine and Mon Mothma weren't the main characters like Lee and Grant.

I also asked why you don't think the prequels, also centered on the fall of the Republic, wasn't as large in galactic political scope when it seems to be even moreso, or at least more complicated, as Palpatine engineers his own election to the Supreme Chancellor post? Now (in AOTC) he's gained emergency powers and the legal authority to use a Clone Army of the Republic. Not to mention the Clone Wars have begun.

The Classic Trilogy's political atmosphere seems much more shallow - Rebels have stolen plans so they can make a terrorist strike on a space station the Empire is testing to force control over star systems. Then they chase a very particular Rebel Cell around because Vader's son is secretly a part of this group. It totally becomes a very personal story in ESB with little or no political backdrop. Then in ROTJ, a trap is set to destroy the Rebellion who are baited into a fight to destroy a second station and kill the Emperor while they're at it. There's little hidden agenda or adult subterfuge in the Original Trilogy. But there is a lot more one could write about the personal journey taken by Luke Skywalker up until he rescues his father from the Dark Side.

See, I really don't see where you come up with this stuff Stillakid, especially when the Prequel movies would support your argument more than the classics, but you dismiss them and negate Lucas' directly stated intent as well.

2-1B
06-11-2002, 01:09 PM
Tycho, I agree that your "Luke as a son of another brother of Owen or Beru" works until we hear the name Skywalker. Indeed, there is no question afterward. I appreciate your views on Anakin being reckless, that's why Owen is so fearful of Luke meeting Ben.
But I personally saw ESB first (I was born a year after ANH) so I've always taken that look from Owen to be totally based on Vader.

stillakid, I was wondering when you would get here! :D
I understand why you wouldn't want to see the babies in Episode III, but I think it doesn't matter due to the homestead in AOTC. Well, actually, it does matter as Leia can be kept a complete secret (though with Organa in AOTC I really doubt they will leave it a secret) but I think they can show Luke since ANH already confirms Luke as Anakin's son (with a little help from AOTC).
So anyway, I invite you to look on page 4 and read post #60, it's on the bottom. I'd appreciate your thoughts. :)

In general, for everyone's consideration, the idea of Ben lying about killing Anakin is discomforting to me. I much prefer knowing that Vader was Luke's father rather than thinking of Ben as a liar to get Luke off the planet. It takes my trust out of the character, I want to supprt him in his efforts to beat the Emperor, not question why he is bringing the son of a guy he killed into that very same larger world. :)

stillakid
06-11-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
Thanks for the compliments, Stillakid, and while I'd like to wish we did agree on everything in this thread, I have to face the truth.

We still disagree on what the story was all about. Did we settle this in our last debate or not?

You said it was about the Rebellion to restore the Republic against the tyranny of an Empire, and I said it was always the focus to center on the Skywalker family, set against the war as a backdrop.

I think you then said that Lucas declared it to be that (Anakin's story) during his Leonard Malton interviews on the THX release tapes (last time for the original trilogy without 'special additions').

I think I said that there is no proof that George said it was something else sometime earlier and demanded to know where this proof was, and how come Palpatine and Mon Mothma weren't the main characters like Lee and Grant.

I also asked why you don't think the prequels, also centered on the fall of the Republic, wasn't as large in galactic political scope when it seems to be even moreso, or at least more complicated, as Palpatine engineers his own election to the Supreme Chancellor post? Now (in AOTC) he's gained emergency powers and the legal authority to use a Clone Army of the Republic. Not to mention the Clone Wars have begun.

The Classic Trilogy's political atmosphere seems much more shallow - Rebels have stolen plans so they can make a terrorist strike on a space station the Empire is testing to force control over star systems. Then they chase a very particular Rebel Cell around because Vader's son is secretly a part of this group. It totally becomes a very personal story in ESB with little or no political backdrop. Then in ROTJ, a trap is set to destroy the Rebellion who are baited into a fight to destroy a second station and kill the Emperor while they're at it. There's little hidden agenda or adult subterfuge in the Original Trilogy. But there is a lot more one could write about the personal journey taken by Luke Skywalker up until he rescues his father from the Dark Side.

See, I really don't see where you come up with this stuff Stillakid, especially when the Prequel movies would support your argument more than the classics, but you dismiss them and negate Lucas' directly stated intent as well.

Sorry about that. I didn't intend to ignore those questions. They managed to slip by me at some point.

I take my "read" of the intention of the OT right from the first words we ever "see" from the saga, which was released prior to the actual film:


from the Star Wars novelization, copyright 1976, page 1
Another galaxy, another time.

The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that ... it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at it's height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.

Once securre in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.

Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.

But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.

From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples...

From the First Saga
Journal of the Whills

"They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes."
Leia Organa of Alderaan, Senator

The entire main body of the Prologue sets the stage for the theme of galactic conflict. In order to tell that story, Lucas utilized several smaller elements to make the whole, the Vader/Anakin/Luke dynamic being one of them. Had the story been about that particular element alone, I would have expected that Prologue to read very very differently. As it stands, no mention of Luke or Anakin is made in the slightest.

The epilogue to the Prologue, the quote from Leia Organa, is the only reference to specifics of any individuals beyond Palpatine. Yet it is general in nature as to paint a larger picture of opposition to the Empire, rather than specifically pointing a finger at the Luke/Anakin story.

The Palpatine references in the main body really set up his character in the OT quite well. While we would expect to see a great deal of his presence in any Prequels as he manuevers politically, the Prologue says specifically that he shuts himself away from the populace. His general absence from the majority of the OT is perhaps the strongest way to put this idea across. He keeps himself at arms length from the people and us, the audience. It works beautifully.

So, this Prologue, which I'm sure Lucas did not write, but I'm sure approved, paints the picture of galactic struggle, not of a single father/son redemption story. If one decides to turn to the films themselves as a source, the opening crawls are there as lead-ins to the episodes themselves, not for the saga as a whole. This Prologue laid the foundation for what we expected to see in a complete saga.

In one more bit of defense for this position, if the entire saga was intended to be primarily about the Anakin/downfall/redemption, then why waste so much time developing any of the side stories with Han/Luke, Han/Leia, Leia/Luke, R2/C-3PO, Han/Lando, Han/Chewy (I just noticed that Han seems to be the centerpoint in all of this. Maybe the saga is about him! :) )

Anyway, if this is only about Anakin, then the galactic struggle itself is merely a footnote to the "saga" and should have gotten only as much attention as any of the other "side stories," like the Han/Leia love affair, for instance. But that's not what we see at all. The BIG picture is of galactic struggle with all these little stories going on within it, sometimes pushing the struggle or being pushed by it and sometimes off in the corners neither affecting it or being affected by it.

Mothma and the like could have just as likely been the primary heroes to follow along through this epic as they too are just a piece of the puzzle. In fact, they are just as important to the telling of this story as Han, Leia, and Luke, but their personal adventures are just not as developed and focused upon as the three "heroes." In writing, a greater story exists on it's own. It's up to the author to realize who the most interesting characters are who are swept up in the events and then focus the readers (audience's) attention on them. This doesn't negate the importance of anyone else in the tale. It just means that for dramatic appeal or story motivation, the key players are the best choice.

For a quick example of this, take Boba Fett. Now he is an interesting character, and it might have been fun for the ESB to shoot off on a tangent and explore how and why he got to the Imperial Fleet. Certainly he did exist before we see him onscreen, so he did things that were possible to film and present, but to what purpose? Just because it's interesting? Maybe, but he enters the picture as the story requires. No more of him. No less of him than we need to see in order to tell the greater story at hand. Had the film shot off on a tangent to show Fett's "journey" to the asteroid field, not only would that tale have little to do with the larger plot at hand, but it would have hampered the dramatic pace the the film had established.

And also, the political specifics are NOT the primary story either. In the OT, we get just as much as we need to explain the current situation with the government when Tarkin says:


I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the Council permanently...

Most likely, with a political "event" like that, there isn't much to actually film. The politics of the day (in the OT) are EXTREMELY evident all over the saga. The politics have little to do with a Senate chamber and are all about a Rebellion taking on the dictatorship. The battle is now out of the hallowed halls and has taken to the fields. It's still politics, just a very different kind of "aggressive negotiation" than what we expect and see in the Prequels.

If Lucas's stated intent now is that the saga is primarily about Anakin, then that is entirely revisionist and only further serves my assertion that he's changing the game while we're all playing it, because it certainly wasn't the initial story that he set out to tell. We would have been seeing a lot less of everyone else and much more of Vader traipsing about.


Once again, in regards to the Midichlrorian issue, I've always maintained that the Midi's are contradictory to the original intent of Luke's motivation as it was written in the OT. In several interviews, Lucas describes saga in a way like this:


George Lucas, the Creative Impulse, page 45
The story is really an action adventure, a fantasy hero's journey. It's aimed primarily at teenagers, the same audience as American Graffiti."

Now, you could take from that a sense that the saga is about Luke and his journey. In fact, the sub-title of the novelization is From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. But as Joseph Campbell points out:


Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, by Bill Moyers, page xiv
Campbell had lamented on other occasions our failure "to admit within ourselves the carniverous, lecherous fever" that is endemic to human nature. Now he was describing the hero's journey not as a courageous act but as a life lived in self-discovery, "and Luke Skywalker was never more rational than when he found within himself the resources of character to meet his destiny."

Specifically what this leads to is an understanding that we, and according to Lucas above, teenagers specifically, are meant to identify with Luke in such a way as to emphathize with his situation and perhaps, as in the tradition of myth, find inspiration for our own lives. So the motivation to keep a hero of any story relatively familiar to the audience is profound.

But what does the motivation for Luke's character have to do with the question of overall theme of the saga? In the Autumn of 1979, there is an article in Bantha Tracks concerning the variety of influences in the saga:


Bantha Tracks, V2, No 2, whole number 6, Autumn 1979
There is also something in Star Wars of Miyamoto Musashi, that old warhorse of a film that has been remade more times than Star Trek has been rerun. The film is based on the life and exploits of the legendary early 17th century swordsman Masashi Miyamoto. It concerns a young boy, Musashi, who is searching for a master swordsman gone bad who killed his mentor and his father. The story culminates, after many adventures, often over several films, in a great duel between the boy and the swordsman on a lonely beach.

This is just one description in an article that goes into detail about 7 or so other elements in the saga, including the plot as a whole, the swordplay, the costumes, etc. The point is that these are all pieces that combine to create a greater whole.


Star Wars, the novelization

"I'm trying to reconstruct a genre that's been lost and bring it to a new dimension so that the elements of space, fantasy, adventure, suspense and fun all work and feed off each other. So, in a way, STAR WARS is a movie for the kid in all of us."


Bantha Tracks, V2, No 4, whole number 8, Spring 1980
When I developed Star Wars I thought of it as a contemporary fairy tale with values and a moral point of view. I think because of that it has a universal, permanent appeal.

I certainly don't intend to downplay the importance of the Anakin/Redemption storyline in regards to the structure of the entire saga, as the OT stands now, that is not the primary focus. I believe that Lucas took a look at the final product (the OT) and decided that instead of focusing so much on the greater political situation in the Prequels, that he would attempt to give greater priority to the Tragedy of Anakin. As it turns out, I think he's failing at that too if that is the intent. While it is more evident in AOTC, it appears that the Anakin story is an equal partner now in each of the two hour movies. Think "Titanic." One half love story, the other half is the big "event." Same thing here. Oddly enough, TPM did a better job at weaving the Anakin story in with the greater galactic plot. AOTC borders on schizophrenic, jumping back and forth between Anakin's "internal" struggle and everybody else who are caught up in the galactic events.


(ready, aim, fire!) :)

stillakid
06-11-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Caesar
Jedi Clint, the Lucas-speak I refer to doesn't address the Vader suit in particular. :) Rather, he's always going on about how the prequels show how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader. Yes, they can do that without showing the suit, but there can not be any questions left as to whether or not Anakin has turned to the Dark Side. If they leave his ultimate fate a mystery, then the things we see that led him to that end (i.e. Tusken slaughter) are just examples of bad things he's done in his life. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin, and presumably dying, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
Palpatine will be revealed as the Emperor, I think it's safe to assume that we will see Anakin join his side. Without question, he is now evil. Again, they don't have to call him Darth and we can see him as a Sith Lord without the suit. Nevertheless, I concede that by showing him turn to evil as Anakin AND joining the Emperor and presumably dying after he has clearly turned to evil, the identity of Vader is protected.
BUT
In ANH when Ben tells Luke about the apprentice betraying and murdering, it will be so ridiculously obvious that nothing like that literally happened. The audience (if watching 1 - 6 ) will have witnessed Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, so how the heck could another apprentice of Obi-Wan's turn to evil and betray and murder the other apprentice who turned to evil? :confused:

Tycho, per your request your words have been marked! :D
I would apply the above statements to your theories on the additional apprentice as well. Yes, I understand that we don't hear Luke Skywalker until the detention block, but after watching Episode II and seeing Anakin's stepbrother, the same man Luke calls uncle, there is no way the audience will not know before the credits roll on ANH. So the "surprise" of ESB is already gone before we even get to Hoth.

If that qualifies as a hint, I respect the position. But I think it's above hint level . . .

Episode III will have to convince me that Obi-Wan had an apprentice who turned to evil and killed another apprentice who turned to evil (the same one -Anakin- who was his good friend even while he was evil). :sur:

Honestly, I think that the Prequels are too far gone at this point to preserve any OT surprises for anyone who is paying attention. :)

How come? The main reason is because Lucas set himself up for failure by starting the story in the middle. Because of that, he had to create a sense of drama in each film of the OT and in the OT as a whole so he used elements that are difficult to hide in any pre-story because of specific dialogue used in the OT. Did that make sense? :sur: A lot of the problems come about because of things that Old Ben and Spirit Ben say in the OT. The situation is just set up so precariously that the house of cards is doomed to fall one way or another without performing some kind of surgery on the OT. But that's all before you even watch the Prequels! :)

Lucas has constructed the Prequels thus far in such a way that only ensures that no secrets or drama will remain in the OT, if the saga is viewed from 1-6. He's giving away the farm because of "fan desire" to see "cool stuff" like the history of Boba Fett and possibly a Vader siting in Episode III. I'm sure Hayden is just drooling at the possiblity of getting an action figure with his head on a Vader body. :rolleyes: (hmm, that's a great idea for a custom figure!) :)

Tycho
06-11-2002, 02:43 PM
No, I think you're lost, Stillakid. ;)

If Luke's heroic journey was the focal point for the audience to identify this tale of a galactic struggle with, why isn't he a Senator or a Rebel Alliance leader to begin with? OK, Leia is, but she is not focused on as much as Luke.

And there's no way to argue that in ANH, a stand-alone movie, that the Rebellion against the Empire was even an adequate representation of galactic politics when compared to the mechanations of the prequels. You see the actual Rebels only twice in the whole movie: they defend the Princess who has plans they've stolen using her presumed diplomatic immunity as cover. Then they fight a defensive battle at Yavin (which would have been an offensive battle only if the Falcon not been tracked there.)

So 10 minutes in the beginning of the movie, and 15 minutes at the end. Less than 1/4 of the movie is dedicated to the Rebellion. Luke is not a Rebel. Han is certainly not a Rebel. Obi-Wan is an outcast and not part of any formal organization left to restore the Republic. At best, you could say he's his own Rebel Cell that operates in conjunction with Leia's.

But 1 hour and 35 minutes of this film is focused on Luke's journey. All of this is happening because fate (or the Force) is pushing Luke along to find his destiny: a confrontation with his father that has such an affect on him that a man turned to evil will find redemption and fulfill his own destiny: that of the Chosen One of prophesy.

Stillakid: I've read the paragraph from the original novel - which was written AFTER the screenplay and published before the release of the movie (and just covered ANH for those who don't know - I have this book and it's just the ANH novelization).

ALL YOU'VE DONE HERE IS MISTAKE THE SETTING FOR THE PLOT! LOL

If this had been a story about Julius Ceasar, they would start the story by describing the Roman Empire.

Or how about this:

Once upon a time there was a great Republic called the United States of America. As evil corporations gained interest in their political status, a young drunk from Texas is boosted up on his father's s**tkickers and ultimately becomes the puppet of the corporations.

Can his daughters, trained by experienced Re-Hab agency workers find their independent values in time to reform their father and free him from the grip of their over-bearing grandfather in time? Or will the power of Enron take over the universe as we know it?

Well, to tell this story, I'd set it up with a little bit more information about America and how it was born by a revolution in order to establish democracy. That way the audience would care about the traditions of this nation and know and value what the heroic twin characters' ultimately motivating objectives and goals were. That is the setting for the story and it must come first. Otherwise I'd mistake the story to only care for some kind of plot to escape alcholism and bad parenting. Basically it is both. One plot element is dependent on the other - the reformation of the government from the inside is perpetrated first by the reformation of the President. To do that, his family values must be straightened out first and his values and priorities must be set.

You could tell this story about the United States from many points of view: from the side of Enron's downfall, or from the prespective of Congress, or the Senate Investigation Committee. But you choose to focus on the twins and their family. Just like Luke, Leia, and their father.

But told from this point of view, the USA story is dependent upon the redemption of the father. Therefore, it is really his story.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ceasar: I don't think Owen ever knows that Anakin becomes Darth Vader. The only one who could tell him that is Obi-Wan. Perhaps Owen blames Obi-Wan for letting that happen to his step-brother? I don't know. But why wouldn't Obi-Wan just tell Owen that Anakin is dead? That is true, from a certain point of view. I suppose to protect Luke's identity, and he is known as Luke Lars around Anchorhead and Toshe Station? Maybe. So maybe that's good enough. But Obi-Wan could have just as easily told Owen that Luke needed to be hidden from the Emperor.

I don't know. Maybe trying to tell somebody else that Palpatine was the Dark Lord of the Sith would be too ridiculous for Obi-Wan. So I suppose he might have told Owen the truth.

It's a curious question I'm altogether uncertain how I'd answer. Obi-Wan is informing an ADULT about what happened to his next-of-kin. He might have told Owen the truth. That's a tough one, Caesar!

Finally, Caesar, Obi-Wan is forgiveable for not explaining to Luke immediately that what happened to his father is Obi-Wan's fault. He was also feeling guilty about it, even then, and it was the easiest way for Obi-Wan to squirm out of answering that question. But the fact remains, he did LIE. His reasons were better than most people's lies. But of course Luke gets mad at him for it. This is a moral-lesson series of movies and lying is not going to be shown as not upsetting to people. Luke has every right to be mad about being lied to, and his manner that he questions Obi-Wan in ROTJ totally suggests it.

stillakid
06-11-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
No, I think you're lost, Stillakid. ;)

If Luke's heroic journey was the focal point for the audience to identify this tale of a galactic struggle with, why isn't he a Senator or a Rebel Alliance leader to begin with? OK, Leia is, but she is not focused on as much as Luke.

Because normal audience members and future fan club members are not members of society's "elite." You don't make a successful hero an established personae. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is all about that. Die Hard. Heck, even in Gilligan's Island the "hero" is on the lowest rung of the ladder.


Originally posted by Tycho

And there's no way to argue that in ANH, a stand-alone movie, that the Rebellion against the Empire was even an adequate representation of galactic politics when compared to the mechanations of the prequels. You see the actual Rebels only twice in the whole movie: they defend the Princess who has plans they've stolen using her presumed diplomatic immunity as cover. Then they fight a defensive battle at Yavin (which would have been an offensive battle only if the Falcon not been tracked there.)

So 10 minutes in the beginning of the movie, and 15 minutes at the end. Less than 1/4 of the movie is dedicated to the Rebellion. Luke is not a Rebel. Han is certainly not a Rebel. Obi-Wan is an outcast and not part of any formal organization left to restore the Republic. At best, you could say he's his own Rebel Cell that operates in conjunction with Leia's.

But 1 hour and 35 minutes of this film is focused on Luke's journey. All of this is happening because fate (or the Force) is pushing Luke along to find his destiny: a confrontation with his father that has such an affect on him that a man turned to evil will find redemption and fulfill his own destiny: that of the Chosen One of prophesy.

Stillakid: I've read the paragraph from the original novel - which was written AFTER the screenplay and published before the release of the movie (and just covered ANH for those who don't know - I have this book and it's just the ANH novelization).

ALL YOU'VE DONE HERE IS MISTAKE THE SETTING FOR THE PLOT! LOL

:) Maybe so. But like I said before, the most interesting characters in the story need to be gathered up sometime and through their mis-adventures with one side of the political situation, eventually join up with the other side of the coin. This isn't a Pre-Revolutionary War type battle with both sides lining up and loading their muskets. The Rebels are made up of a rag-tag band of (sounds like something else ;) )characters darting in and out of the shadows. The road to the Rebellion will be a convoluted one for the newly ordained heroes. So just because we don't see the "establishment" of the Rebellion too often in ANH, doesn't mean that it isn't there or important to the story. In fact, the entire episode-specific plot of ANH is about the heroes trying to reach the Rebellion. Just because we're not cutting back and forth to it throughout the film doesn't mean it isn't a viable character.

The Setting is the galaxy. The situation is Political Upheaval. The overall plot is the Return of Peace and Justice to a Corrupted Government. The individual plots of each episode focus on the details which serve the greater plot of an episodic saga. It is tempting to confuse the details with the big picture, but in the immortal words of a wise man, "Is the tree the forest? Or is the forest the trees?" On the personal level of character, the Anakin Downfall and Redemption is a nice parallel to the greater plot, but it isn't the plot itself. Or, at least, it wasn't until George decided to change the point mid-game.

Tycho
06-11-2002, 04:23 PM
Because normal audience members and future fan club members are not members of society's "elite." You don't make a successful hero an established personae. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is all about that. Die Hard. Heck, even in Gilligan's Island the "hero" is on the lowest rung of the ladder.



OK, I agree. So it IS a story about Luke's journey. (and if you were watching this as the 4th Movie, the story of Anakin's journey would have 3 times as much material in it by this point, as well).





The road to the Rebellion will be a convoluted one for the newly ordained heroes. So just because we don't see the "establishment" of the Rebellion too often in ANH, doesn't mean that it isn't there or important to the story. In fact, the entire episode-specific plot of ANH is about the heroes trying to reach the Rebellion. Just because we're not cutting back and forth to it throughout the film doesn't mean it isn't a viable character.

If this was about the Rebellion entirely, or even in the largest picture, then we would see Bail Organa, Garm Bel Ibis, and Mon Mothma as the principle characters establishing the initial formation of the Rebellion. I am fond of the idea of telling Ann Crispin's Han Solo stories as a movie trilogy because they deal with Bria Tharen (Han's first love) becoming a Rebel Hero at the Dawn of the Rebellion (hence the last book is Rebel Dawn). It shows the secret discussions and literally walks you through the formation of the Rebel Alliance as we know it, 6 (six years) prior to A New Hope, though events key to creating the modern Rebel Alliance of the movies continue to gain status in size and importance throughout the next 6 years until Han is staring across the table at an Old Man and a Farmboy who want to purchase passage to the Alderaan System. But even this story takes Han Solo on the hero's journey (start at The Paradise Snare) - (and he could have been a 10 year old Clone Warrior prior to that!)

But nothing such as "The Adventures of Mon Mothma" or even "The Adventures of Bail Organa" have been in the books or the movies to offer this. Bail Organa will get a tremendous boost in that direction in Episode 3, but that's only 1 movie out of six!

I acknowledge that the heroes of ANH are spending the entire movie trying to reach the Rebellion. However, look at WHY:

R2D2 is the only real Rebel Agent along for the whole journey. He's got the plans to the Death Star. He's a "B character."

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a character who'd pledged his life to defend the Republic. During the Empire, it would seem he has a lot of work to do. ;) But he's not part of the Rebel Alliance.

Luke Skywalker, the main focal point, is along for the ride because his surrogate parents were killed and his home was destroyed. He doesn't want to be a farmer, and he dreams of better things to do - like have adventures. If Luke helped win the Rebellion the day after he left Tatooine, I doubt he'd know what to do with political power. The ideology and reason for the Rebellion has not really sunk into Luke. He's not committed. "It's not like I like the Empire, but there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's all such a long way from here." True it does not suggest that Luke doesn't know what he'd do about it IF he COULD do something about it. But I think Owen had such a stranglehold on him, that Luke barely even dreamed THAT far ahead. He just wanted to fight and join a cause he didn't entirely understand. He wanted "to do right," but could feel his way through the conflict against wrong, but hadn't thought about how to reestablish "the right." Which is why SENATOR Leia Organa is the perfect compliment to him.

Meanwhile, look what Luke does later in the Rebellion anyway: he's not a general or strategist the way even Jedi might have been. He's a fighter squadron commander and a scout putting 'sensors in place' on Hoth. True he's not a Jedi then, but he's also no leader planning evacuations, discussing assault tactics, etc. He doesn't become the embodiment of the Rebellion ideology either. He becomes an instrument to achieve its short-term goals (minus one Death Star, etc.)

Finally, Han Solo: He's a mercenary hired to just be a pilot for one job and gets "more than he bargained for." He has a grudge against the Empire, sure. But he stays around mainly for two reasons: 1) he's started to care about Luke and truly be his friend and 2) he's first after the Princess' money, but later he's actually after HER - though it's always something about Leia...

Chewbacca: He's Han's sidekick and goes where Han does, though his history with slavery and hatred for the Empire goes way back. However, he's a hired pilot in ANH and not a member of the Rebellion - though he wants to join before Han is convinced to.

Lando is one of the first real Rebel main characters who becomes one from the point of his first introduction. Lando's city was over-ran by the Empire and his power and wealth were taken from him. He wants to fight the Empire for very direct reasons: justice and revenge. Yes, Lando is also loyal to his Rebel friends, but then he could have just rescued Han from Jabba and then said goodbye. Flying into the Death Star goes beyond volunteering.

Leia was established as a Rebel from the beginning, but she was not as important of character as following Luke on his journey. Arguably she is more involved than Lando, but I used Lando's hero's journey as an example because it is established much quicker than the other characters, and he has very real reasons for joining the Rebellion, not like Luke's vague ideas of what's kind of, sort of, the right thing to do, and Han's "maybe she'll kiss me just once..." kind of motivations.

So the earliest main characters don't have anything directly to do with the Rebellion, but the Rebellion could not have succeeded without them. So it's these guys: Han, Luke, Chewie, Obi-Wan, and later Lando, that go through the hero's journey, which let the Rebel Alliance do anything meaningful. Thus it is not a main character (the Alliance) but just a sideliner that the heroes use to develop, much like the Falcon is the ship that takes them there.

As to your forest / tree example: suppose there is a forest fire.

In situation one we say all the trees were hurt and did not know if they would survive. It sounds like a documentary.

In situation two we say Oaky and Maple were trees. They grew up from seeds and lived in an enchanted forest. Someday Oaky and Maple hoped to grow their own hybrid that they would name Willow. But one day there was a bolt of lightning and a fire started in the forest....

You feel the story that much more when you're caught up in Oaky and Maple's adventures, than you would just discussing random trees. The characters have a dream: to produce a little Willow, and start their family. And they first must overcome an obstacle: surviving the fire.

While you are telling the story of a forest fire that you set out to do, you are now making it about Oaky and Maple and investing your desire to get your audience involved in the tale by using two characters to make it more compelling. Your concept focus has changed yet your goal is achieved.

Like I said, you could have made a documentary about forest fires.

There are different ways to describe that phenomenon.

AN ADDITION: why tell the tale in the first place?

As an author of Oaky and Maple's story, I might have written it to encourage people to properly put out their camp fires.

But I could have written it because my dream is to get married and have a child.


Was Lucas interested in politics, or did he have issues with his father, or fantasize about becoming a father?

Or was it moreso a fantasy about leaving the ordinary life and having a great adventure - which most certainly had the strongest appeal to all of us when we first saw Star Wars (except maybe you Stillakid - as concerned with politics as you are :) j/k)

stillakid
06-11-2002, 06:01 PM
Dammit@!@!@ I had a response all typed up and this stupid forum thing blew it away! Not the first time. It's getting really annoying.

I'll try to reconstitute it when I have more time. :frus:

darthvyn
06-11-2002, 07:38 PM
lol... wow, lots of words appeared since my last post...

anyway, first off, stillakid, do you accept that jedi can disappear without a trace when they are killed? if so, why can't you accept that a force sensitive child could appear without a trace when it is born?

i agree with you that any plot device that even HINTS at vader's identity in ep III will prematurely ruin secrets in OT due to dialogue. however, i don't agree that it will detract from the impact of the revelations later... if you watch a mystery, don't you sometimes like to know the answer before our protagonist does? we still see the emotional impact on luke when vader reveals his true identity, we just see the scene through different eyes.

to me, as long as lucas tells the story the best way possible, i'll be happy. if the story suffers from side-stepping the OT secrets, that's what will **** me off. really the only secret that i see that can be maintained that will not detract from the story of III will be leia's true identity. as in the past, my little pet plot point is anakin's initiation into the sith. if i don't see it, oh well... like i said, as long as it's the best way to tell the story...

so, stillakid, i strongly suggest you go through the thread some time and read it, cause everyone has said so much interesting stuff, i'd hate anyone in here to miss any of it.

stillakid
06-11-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
lol... wow, lots of words appeared since my last post...

anyway, first off, stillakid, do you accept that jedi can disappear without a trace when they are killed? if so, why can't you accept that a force sensitive child could appear without a trace when it is born?

i agree with you that any plot device that even HINTS at vader's identity in ep III will prematurely ruin secrets in OT due to dialogue. however, i don't agree that it will detract from the impact of the revelations later... if you watch a mystery, don't you sometimes like to know the answer before our protagonist does? we still see the emotional impact on luke when vader reveals his true identity, we just see the scene through different eyes.

to me, as long as lucas tells the story the best way possible, i'll be happy. if the story suffers from side-stepping the OT secrets, that's what will **** me off. really the only secret that i see that can be maintained that will not detract from the story of III will be leia's true identity. as in the past, my little pet plot point is anakin's initiation into the sith. if i don't see it, oh well... like i said, as long as it's the best way to tell the story...

so, stillakid, i strongly suggest you go through the thread some time and read it, cause everyone has said so much interesting stuff, i'd hate anyone in here to miss any of it.

First, what does doing the vanishing act have to do with the price of tea in China? Thus far, it has had no bearing whatsoever on the plot. :confused:

Second I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'd have a hard time with the Immaculate Conception or something. Your question makes not one iota of sense in terms of anything I've ever posted.

Third, I have read all of the posts now and much of it is interesting. I strongly suggest not talking to me like I'm an idiot and haven't put one glimmer of logical thought into any of this. Thanks for asking.

Darth Sinister
06-11-2002, 10:49 PM
This thread is great....good ideas like these are what Lucas intended....to spark the imagination! Good work.

While most of these senarios reagarding keeping the secret seem logical I must ask this. How far should we go into destroying Obi-Wans character to preserve the secret?

The only way to keep the secret is to have another padawan who turns. Obi-Wan Kenobi, one of the greatest of the Jedi ever....and his only two students turned to the dark side. Couple that with his "certain point of view" and what you've done is turn him into a lying loser. I would be way more angry with Lucas if he did that than giving everything away.

Plus, just throwing in another bad Jedi who turns half way through the movie is a really bad way of preserving the secret. Lucas has too much to tell as it is without having to throw another character into the mix without any kind of a back story telling why he went bad. A back story in the novel would not do it either....if it doesn't happen on screen it doesn't matter.

The secret is not worth wasted screen time by another fallen Jedi. At the same time destroying the great character of Kenobi.

"The circle is now complete, when I left you I was but the learner now I am the master"......"and it only took you a year to turn me bad unlike that sissy chosen one"......"Prepare to disappear you pitiful excuse of a Jedi you".

stillakid
06-11-2002, 10:58 PM
--

Darth Sinister
06-11-2002, 11:24 PM
NO, what it should be is a forum without the use the "g" word you used above. If it bothers you this much, just walk away. BTW, why did you censor a** and then type gd?

stillakid
06-11-2002, 11:24 PM
--

stillakid
06-11-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sinister
NO, what it should be is a forum without the use the "g" word you used above. If it bothers you this much, just walk away. BTW, why did you censor a** and then type gd?

It would be easier to understand your post if it was grammatically correct in the first sentence.

And I've only been recently bothered because of recent extreme intolerance toward my point of view. Discussing doesn't bother me in the slightest. Being personally attacked because someone doesn't like to hear about "problems" does.

stillakid
06-11-2002, 11:32 PM
I had posted something inappropriate here, but decided to yank it as it was written in a state of anger and intolerance.

I thought we were holding a discussion on these forums but it appears that only certain points of view are now allowed.

You're all right, Lucas is infallible, and I've been wrong about everything. Is that what you want to hear? :confused:

JetsAndHeels
06-11-2002, 11:37 PM
Stillakid,
I agree with you. Do not mind that some on here want to believe Lucas is God. Please continue your posts on here. I have enjoyed reading this thread and I want you to know I agree with you on this one.

Darth Sinister
06-11-2002, 11:37 PM
use OF the "g" word above. Good come back BTW...lol. A simple "I give up" will do next time, please. You are taking this stuff wayyyyyyyy to seriously.

Darth Sinister
06-11-2002, 11:50 PM
But Mr. Kid.....please continue your arguments. That's what this is all about, just please watch that line before you cross it.

And, no....Lucas is not the all mighty perfect man or storyteller. But he has brought us here.

Tycho
06-12-2002, 03:51 AM
I have no idea what is this "g word" I've been hearing being discussed!

I've been hard on Stillakid myself lately. I want everyone to know I like him and thinks he contributes here, but I also think he likes nitpicking in favor of his points he's so strongly behind and it irks me from time to time. But those are his arguments, not him personally.

As to me being intolerant of his arguments? I'm not. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood for them and if while if Stillakid might like getting a fight out of them, I might like whining like Luke about them when I don't feel like discussing them or they have not much to do with what the thread was started to discuss in the first place, and they are still the same arguments Stillakid always goes back to: Qui-Gon and the midichlorians, and so on.

I agree with him about preserving the Vader secret and some other things, but I guess I just don't "deal with Stillakid" when I agree with him, but only add to it if I can further the discussion, and if not, just add a short bit that I agree and he said stuff well.

The fact is that he thinks out what he's going to say and articulates it very well.

The annoyance that Stillakid has agreed with me on, is that if you don't post a response to a thread you're into, when something debates what you said or believe, it is taken like a concession or an agreement, when in that case, it is not. Thus I must post.

Also to correct errors.

Darth Sinister: Obi-wan does not have to fail twice even when he'll have a second padawan. While the clueless viewer may think that about the (actually dead) 2nd padawan, Obi-Wan will be redeemed for that blunder when we learn that Vader is Anakin. Thus the 2nd Padawan did not turn and kill Anakin (who is not an "official Dark Sider" as Anakin anyway). The other padawan who is not fully trained can exhibit perfectly human flaws, such as jealousy or lack of confidence in the face of living up to Anakin's legacy or relationship with Obi-Wan. So we can see the tendancies and suspect...

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan didn't really fail Anakin. His padawan quit. If Anakin has any Dark Side abilities (remember he's seen Lightning as demonstrated by Dooku and might be trying to recreate that), then he's learned those after he was no longer Obi-Wan's apprentice. Perhaps Obi-Wan failed to keep him from getting married, but the Council sent him on that mission to protect Padme, while Obi-Wan expressed concerns that Anakin stood to break his oath and "hook-up" with Padme. But he couldn't control the emotional attachment Anakin made to Padme before he was ever Obi-Wan's apprentice. Qui-Gon did nothing to curtail that - nor could he until Anakin was really his apprentice - which was denied in TPM. Sure Obi-Wan can blame himself, but circumstances were beyond his control. You can be more mad at him for lying to Luke, but not for failing Anakin, and certainly not for failing a second padawan that might have had some suspicious flaws but who in the end we presume might have gone bad, but who we now believe dead.

Interestingly enough, Lucas talked about a character that survives the prequels. Could it be the padawan afterall? Could he have really turned anyway - thinking Obi-Wan abandoned him?

Remember, Obi-Wan would have 4 years to train the boy, from 13 to 17 in Episode 3. If he's 17 in E3, he'd be 39 by the time ROTJ is over. Just 2 years younger than Vader was in ANH. That's curious.

If balance in the Force means there's 1 Jedi left when Yoda has died and Luke is all that remains while Palpatine and Vader are wiped out, shouldn't there be 1 warrior using the Dark Side? Not necessarily Sith? The last Padawan of Obi-Wan Kenobi surviving and 39 years old? Wow. I never thought of that before. But I think the 2nd padawan theory is correct, but having him still alive after ROTJ is a stretch. But hey, they could add THAT scene to ROTJ, the special, special edition...

Finally, if NJO (books) is 21 years after ROTJ, and lasts 5 years in the life of these characters, than this last Dark Sider would be 65 at the end of the NJO books.

Jaina and Jacen Solo would be approximately 20 years old and Ben Skywalker would be 3.

Meanwhile, the 65 year old Dark Sider (I guess just a little older than Obi-Wan in ANH) could have had a new apprentice.

Plus Luke would be 48 and Han Solo would be 59.


Interesting, if there could be sequels. Lucasfilms rules for the New Jedi Order was the bad guys could NOT be Force-users on the Dark Side or anything of that nature.

Instead, they might turn some of Luke's good Jedi bad because they use unconventional (Dark Side) means to destroy the Yuuzhan Vong enemy, thus evolving into a new Dark Side Sect to possibly seek the training of this old pupil of Obi-Wan's!

Jaina Solo is a prime candidate as she wants to avenge the death of her brother Anakin and save or pay them back for whatever has befallen Jacen. The hatred is growing in her now....

But anyway, to finally wrap up my comments to Darth Sinister, did we find out a lot of character background information on Darth Maul, or did he just serve as a plot device? I rest my case with the 2nd Padawan. He's just a plot device and will get 10 minutes or less screen time before Anakin is back at the side of his old Master to face off with Dooku and the 2nd padawan is presumed dead (and probably is).

2-1B
06-12-2002, 03:57 AM
Stillakid
Honestly, I think that the Prequels are too far gone at this point to preserve any OT surprises for anyone who is paying attention.

How come? The main reason is because Lucas set himself up for failure by starting the story in the middle. Because of that, he had to create a sense of drama in each film of the OT and in the OT as a whole so he used elements that are difficult to hide in any pre-story because of specific dialogue used in the OT. Did that make sense? A lot of the problems come about because of things that Old Ben and Spirit Ben say in the OT. The situation is just set up so precariously that the house of cards is doomed to fall one way or another without performing some kind of surgery on the OT. But that's all before you even watch the Prequels!

Lucas has constructed the Prequels thus far in such a way that only ensures that no secrets or drama will remain in the OT, if the saga is viewed from 1-6. He's giving away the farm because of "fan desire" to see "cool stuff" like the history of Boba Fett and possibly a Vader siting in Episode III. I'm sure Hayden is just drooling at the possiblity of getting an action figure with his head on a Vader body. (hmm, that's a great idea for a custom figure!)


Specifically regarding your question of "Did that make sense?", yes it most certainly did. Nice job!:cool: I agree completely with your second paragraph here, and those are some of the reasons that I never expected any surprise keeping in the PT (I'm going back in my mind to '97 and earlier with my assumption). And with TPM and AOTC, I don't see how these surprises can be kept in E3. Essentially, that's where my biggest opposition to any secret keeping in Episode 3 comes from (now I ask - does that make sense? :D ).
But what YOU are saying is that the prequels should have been constructed differently from the beginning, and I can respect that POV. :) Had they been constructed differently, I wouldn't be arguing that it doesn't matter if we see Vader in Episode 3. If the possibility of keeping the surprises were there after 2 movies, I wouldn't now be arguing to throw in the Vader revelation. I'd be fine with the way the secret filled PT was going. But I'm being hypothetical there . . . now on to the present moment.

I have been discussing this Hayden/Vader/surprise issue a lot lately, and it's important for me to consider the differences in POV of the folks I'm discussing it with. For instance, Jedi Clint is just saying that we don't need to see the actual suit, leave it all at hints and it will be satisfactory. But Tycho is taking the angle of the "second apprentice" theory, taking the secrecy one step further. While I have for the most part disagreed with all 3 of you on some of the specifics, I have attempted to be cautious and not mix everyone's POV. For example, when I post about "Uncle Owen", the Skywalker name - stuff like that, it applies (or sometimes doesn't apply) differently to different theories.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say (as this feels very confusing as I type it) is that I don't have a general stance to argue from, rather I am just discussing certain problems with the theories that I see being presented. And I don't want anyone to think that I am making broad claims against one's argument when it's really in reference to a different line of thinking.

Basically, this is not a "either / or" discussion, as I am seeing several different theories on the "how"s and "to what degree"s . . .

Now, if any of this is confusing, PLEASE prompt me for clarification, I don't want to be misunderstood as to why I object to every possible secret keeping theory that I've discussed with you guys. :(

Sleep, I need. :D

2-1B
06-12-2002, 04:13 AM
Before I sleep, I'll have a quick go at Tycho here. ;)


Originally posted by Tycho
Ceasar: I don't think Owen ever knows that Anakin becomes Darth Vader. The only one who could tell him that is Obi-Wan. Perhaps Owen blames Obi-Wan for letting that happen to his step-brother? I don't know. But why wouldn't Obi-Wan just tell Owen that Anakin is dead? That is true, from a certain point of view. I suppose to protect Luke's identity, and he is known as Luke Lars around Anchorhead and Toshe Station? Maybe. So maybe that's good enough. But Obi-Wan could have just as easily told Owen that Luke needed to be hidden from the Emperor.

I don't know. Maybe trying to tell somebody else that Palpatine was the Dark Lord of the Sith would be too ridiculous for Obi-Wan. So I suppose he might have told Owen the truth.

It's a curious question I'm altogether uncertain how I'd answer. Obi-Wan is informing an ADULT about what happened to his next-of-kin. He might have told Owen the truth. That's a tough one, Caesar!

Curious. Did Owen know? Like I said, I always interpreted it that he knew . . . considering your thoughts, I will add that Owen sure does seem out of the galactic loop already in AOTC, so quite possibly he does not know. Will E3 answer that? I'll venture that it won't clearly be addressed. George might include a "dropping off Luke" scene with Obers and Owen, but we'll likely see little of their conversation. HOWEVER, if Owen knows WHY Luke really needs to be hidden, it would almost have to be because he knew what happened to Anakin. It would be one thing if Anakin died in battle and Owen was trying to keep Luke from doing the same, but imagine how much more grave the danger is if Owen knows the whole story. Unless Episode III shows me that Owen clearly does not know, I'll stick with my theory that he does. :)



Originally posted by Tycho
Finally, Caesar, Obi-Wan is forgiveable for not explaining to Luke immediately that what happened to his father is Obi-Wan's fault. He was also feeling guilty about it, even then, and it was the easiest way for Obi-Wan to squirm out of answering that question.

But the fact remains, he did LIE. His reasons were better than most people's lies. But of course Luke gets mad at him for it. This is a moral-lesson series of movies and lying is not going to be shown as not upsetting to people. Luke has every right to be mad about being lied to, and his manner that he questions Obi-Wan in ROTJ totally suggests it.

I completely agree with the first part,
but strongly defend Obi-Wan as not being a liar. Too loaded of a term. Yes, Luke certainly has the right to be upset with Ben, I would be upset too. But as a viewer, I can completely sympathize with Obi-Wan, I don't know of any better way for him to explain things at the time. I've never found myself supporting a liar in any other movies, so if Ben was really a liar I couldn't feel such remorse for what he went through. No, he did not lie. :)

And that's one of the biggest obstacles that keeps me from supporting your second apprentice theory. ;)

Beast
06-12-2002, 04:24 AM
I think that after the events of EIII play out, and sink in, that we will actually feel worse for Obi-Wan, and understand more why he misled Luke in the manner he did. Just think of it, due to his loyalty to Qui-Gon, and his defiance to the council, he caused to be trained someone that is part of the cause that all the Jedi's were exterminated.

I also thinks it ties into why Vader never actually hunts down Yoda or Obi-Wan. The first part is out of some odd sense of loyalty he still feels from him. After all he tells Obi-Wan in ANH, that he..."Should not have come back". Likely Anakin lets him go, not only out of loyalty to his old friend, but also cause he has to live with what he's created. Ben actually saught out Vader, and paid the price with his life for doing so.

As for Yoda, I think the same could be said. It all boils down to it being Yoda and Obi-Wan's fault for the fall of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire. Yoda faught Anakin's training, but ended up caving to the rest of the council. Yoda trained Dooku, who later turned and almost killed Anakin. Yoda saved Anakin from being crushed by the pillar. So not only did Vader allow Yoda to live, he didn't bother to hunt him down, because he was responsible for what occured, and because he owes him a small debt for his life.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Tycho
06-12-2002, 05:08 AM
No JarJar.

I think that Palpatine and Vader either think Yoda is dead, or not worth the trouble to go hunt down, because he's too old to make a difference, or too publically humiliated because he led the Council that was labeled treasonous to the Old Republic.

I think Palpatine will call for the trial and punishment (a euphamism for encouraging lynch-mob "justice" and Clone Troopers killing Jedi outright) BEFORE he declares himself Emperor. This is only logical anyway. The Jedi would be around to oppose such a move. This way while they're not all destroyed yet, he keeps them busy.

Yes, it is possible that Vader lets OBI-WAN go out of loyalty. I think Vader will be ashamed he betrayed his master and remember how Obi-Wan fought to defend himself against Anakin, and then even tried to save him. He won't fault Obi-Wan for that, though he'll always have that grudge about Padme, probably his mother, and maybe even for how HE HIMSELF turned out. It's easier to blame somebody else than look at yourself.

Nevertheless, Obi-Wan has to learn of what becomes of Anakin perhaps for motivation for him to understand why he must hide Anakin's son from the Emperor. Granted, there is always the motivation that if Luke was trained and went around as a Jedi Knight, he'd be killed or the attempt would be made by the Empire anyway, but Obi-Wan knew what became of Anakin from sometime before he took Luke to Tatooine. That must be shown in Episode 3. But like I said, if it could be either apprentice, Vader could just be one of these men that Obi-Wan had instructed who he was familiar with. But he'll call him 'Darth,' not Anakin, to preserve the secrets of the Original Trilogy until the revelation scene in The Empire Strikes Back.

Meanwhile, I think the Jedi might have first been easy to hunt down. They were high profile causing trouble on different worlds, citing open rebellion against Palpatine's Empire. Or they were already targets for the Separatists which "Darth Sidious" ultimately controlled, so he knew where these Jedi were and that they'd attempt to complete their missions, or switch sides to avoid siding with the Empire. They'd likely also try to publically redeem the Jedi Order.

The ones that simply went into hiding would either not be bothered with, or they'd be sought out later.

Lynch mobs of civilians and local authorities would start the task. There's 10,000 Jedi, perhaps 2 each on 5,000 worlds. Can 2 Jedi alone be killed? Even with more there, a lot more than 2 fell on Geonosis. They are not indestructable.

So these Master and Apprentice teams are destroyed locally in some cases. In others, they lead Rebellions, and when it's assured they're involved, Boba Fett is paid a bounty and Vader might be sent in. Clones assist of course.

Sure they have a hit list too. But they tag the easy targets first. Say somebody hid and trained an apprentice to fight them? They'd get them when they came to the Sith. "He will come to me?" "I have forseen it." So they didn't need to worry about that.

But Luke - man, he was Vader's son! His family which as Anakin, he cared the most about. He might be indestructable for Vader because Vader simply would not want to kill him. And didn't. At Cloud City, he could have easily! Instead, for a Sith Lord, a Jedi Son could be a bad influence! Heh-heh.

To Caesar, when you said we may never be actually shown whether Owen knows Anakin became Vader or not, I think you are right. That would spill the beans on the ESB revelation as well, and furthermore, Owen and Obi-Wan are not supposed to get along. I think Owen just assumes Anakin was reckless and if Obi-Wan says he turned to the Dark Side, that's enough for Owen.

If Owen is not told, I wonder if he's even heard of Darth Vader by the time it gets around to ANH? Probably. But an "evil Sith Lord enforcer" might not be something the 'good Emperor' wants to be publically extolled about hid adminidtration. It's good for those who he wants to fear him, but bad for encouraging more Rebellion in places Vader has not yet been (or presently has no need to go to).

Jedi Clint
06-12-2002, 10:28 AM
Vader was out to murder Obi Wan in ANH. He wasn't simply admonishing him for coming back, he's used his hatred of Kenobi to keep himself alive for 20 or so years. He will not let him go. Kenobi will escape Vader and the Empire.

Caesar,

Let me clarify my position. I don't think we will see:

A sequence showing Anakin fitted with Vader's suit.
A character calling Anakin "Darth Vader".
A character calling Darth Vader "Anakin".

Thats about it. I'm not worried about the hints in E3 or ANH. Ben's speech doesn't require a second apprentice in E3 to cover the tracks because it falls short of confirmation which would be one of the 3 instances I listed above. If someone figures it out before it's confirmed in ROTJ, so be it.

We can know Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker in E3 because Anakin is "dead", but I don't think we should know of Leia or that twins were the result of Padme's pregnancy.

I don't think Anakin will know Padme is pregnant.

I think Owen and Beru know what happens, and lie to Luke in order to protect him.

I think that sometimes, I get lumped into the "secret keepers" group even though I don't care if anyone figures out who Anakin is. From a story telling perspective, I think it is important to leave confirmation of who Vader is where it belongs and where it has been for 20+ years....in ROTJ. Leave a little doubt, a little suspicion. Have you ever noticed that no matter how clear something is made in the prequels, beople still doubt or question whether that is really what happened? The Sifo-Dyas issue is a perfect example. They really didn't leave much room for what actually transpired with Sifo Dyas, but people just refuse to see the situation clearly. Why would Vader's identity be any different for those same people watching this 1-6 for their first time through?

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by stillakid
Third, I have read all of the posts now and much of it is interesting. I strongly suggest not talking to me like I'm an idiot and haven't put one glimmer of logical thought into any of this. Thanks for asking.

i really wasn't trying to talk down to you at all... you mentioned that you had only skimmed the topic in your post, and i was just encouraging you to read through it. i wasn't trying to say your post was uninformed. i was just mainly paying a compliment to everyone that has been putting a lot of thought into this thread.

the subject was just a little joke... you know where it's from...

Beast
06-12-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Vader was out to murder Obi Wan in ANH. He wasn't simply admonishing him for coming back, he's used his hatred of Kenobi to keep himself alive for 20 or so years. He will not let him go. Kenobi will escape Vader and the Empire.
I agree, he was out to kill him. But I still feel that he's decided that he had his chance, and came back and now he gets no mercy. I believe that Anakin let him go original, out of respect for him as his former Master, as well as a sort of sadistic revenge, making Obi-Wan live with what has happened. If Ben would have stayed away, Vader never would have bothered to hunt him down. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
But an "evil Sith Lord enforcer" might not be something the 'good Emperor' wants to be publically extolled about hid adminidtration. It's good for those who he wants to fear him, but bad for encouraging more Rebellion in places Vader has not yet been (or presently has no need to go to).

well, neither is a "death star." face it, the emperor doesn't care about appeasing his subjects. it's all about FEAR with him. "fear will keep the local systems in line." darth vader is just the first embodiment of this fear.

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
Have you ever noticed that no matter how clear something is made in the prequels, beople still doubt or question whether that is really what happened? The Sifo-Dyas issue is a perfect example. They really didn't leave much room for what actually transpired with Sifo Dyas, but people just refuse to see the situation clearly. Why would Vader's identity be any different for those same people watching this 1-6 for their first time through?

same with palpatine/sidious. i really don't think there is room for doubt that they are one and the same...

darthvyn
06-12-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by JarJarBinks

I agree, he was out to kill him. But I still feel that he's decided that he had his chance, and came back and now he gets no mercy. I believe that Anakin let him go original, out of respect for him as his former Master, as well as a sort of sadistic revenge, making Obi-Wan live with what has happened. If Ben would have stayed away, Vader never would have bothered to hunt him down. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

it was ben's destiny to meet his fate in this duel. "your destiny lies along a different path..." i agree that vader was out to destroy ben, but he wasn't able to, because ben became one with the force, more powerful than vader could ever imagine.

Jedi Clint
06-12-2002, 10:48 PM
How do you respect the person who maimed you and forced you into a life support suit for the rest of your life?

stillakid
06-13-2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Jedi Clint
How do you respect the person who maimed you and forced you into a life support suit for the rest of your life?

True. I always read Vader's line, "You should not have come back" as Vader's way of saying that Obi Wan should have just stayed in exile and not come back into the conflict. This works whether Vader knows if Obi has been alive all this time or not. In fact, Vader seems quite surprised at feeling Obi's presence when the Falcon lands in the Death Star: "I sense something. A presence I've not felt since..." He certainly wasn't expecting to "feel" Obi Wan there in the first place, but nothing he says or does indicates whether he knows if Obi stayed alive throughout the years or not. By the time they get to the duel at the end of ANH, it isn't an issue for him anymore and he's just dealing with the situation as it stands, that his old master is alive and well and clearly sticking his nose back into the war. So it doesn't really make a difference if Vader respects Obi or not. He's out to finish him off and does.

OneArmedJango
06-14-2002, 08:09 PM
Hey, this is the first time I've posted in here. Thank you I knew he dident fall in to lava!!!

Darth Grifter
06-20-2002, 12:27 AM
Wow! I've been out of commission for the last week and a half and I come back to what was my favorite thread and find out that it has gone down hill...Hmph:(

I have to say that I have been out of this post for so long that I can't possibly assertain a position with regards to every single little squable that has been brought up. I can say, however, that most of these points seem very logical...most. The ones that I don't agree with right off the top of my head have to do with the "other padawan." Now, Tycho, I agree with just about every other one of your theories on what epIII holds in store for us, however, another padawan:p . I think that when epIII opens, we will see the battles of the clone wars raging on, descention in the ranks of the senate, bickering (much like what is going on in this post) among the chancellor and the jedi and a break away from the happy republic that was quoted to be "the republic" by Stillakid. I think that the jedi council will have to shift their focus away from training and into fighting these clone wars. I think that the final scene in AOTC gives insight into the fact that the three most prominent (as far as plot goes) jedi masters sighting alone in the council chambers discussing the clone wars and the possible implications of an undermining by a sith lord into the senate. The council will not have time to assign and train new padawans because they will be too intertwined within the drama of a war in which they are loosing countless numbers of their fellow jedi in battle. Placing another padawan under Obi-Wan once they expunge Anakin would be a foolish waste of time. Before you fire any missles, I see that it might also be seen as a necessity because when you loose something you want to replenish it as soon as possible; however, I think that Obi-Wan will be waaayyyyyy to entrenched in the battles of the wars to have time to focus on "training" a new Josh Hartnett :crazed:

Also, I think that a distinction needs to be made here about the role of a screen-writer and the role of the conceptual writer. Lucas has someone else write the screen plays, right? If I'm wrong let me know. If he does, then his directorial role is merely of presenting that screenwriters script in a meaningful and cohesive film. Now, Lucas being the conceptual writer over the screen writer has ultimate say as to what goes in and comes out on the screen; however, he is chopping his own legs out from under him by having someone else take the concept and make it into a script. You may be wondering what my point is of this whole tirade. Stillakid, wow you really are dissallusioned about Lucas, brought up the point that Lucas' talents as a writer are terribly deminishing and wreeking havok to all the hopes and dreams of his fans. However, I present the role of the screen writer as a counterpoint to this because although Lucas is ultimately in charge, he is presenting someone elses vision of his concept. Does that make sense? :confused: It just really upsets me that people continue to bash on Lucas because he made the saga that we love. And he has sparked all of our imaginations enough to cause us to theorize endlessly about plotlines for his next movie. Bashing on him at a sight that was initially created out of love for the products that spawned from his movies is about as pointless as bashing on SS for starting the website in the firstplace.

I really like coming to this site and reading everyone's opinions about everything. However, when people begin to attack other people and degrade their opinions just because they can write better or form more logical arguments using outside sources, the luster and once great sheen of this site begin to tarnish and fade. I'm sorry if this is condescending, I just thought that this was a place of equal discussion and not a place where a few commanding "scholars" of the old ways come together and point their fingers at people who have different opinions.

darthvyn
06-20-2002, 12:43 AM
so far lucas has written the screenplays for ANH and TPM on his own. empire was co-written with leigh brackett and lawrance kasdan, jedi was kasdan and lucas, and clones was lucas and jonathan hales.

i agree that there is a lot of squabbling, but i think it's more an effect of how adamant everyone is of their pet plot points than anyone thinking that they know a lot more than anyone else. that's why i've taken a break, a little breather from the thread. just to clear my head a little and realize that it's not really all personal attacks, just strong defense.

stillakid
06-20-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
so far lucas has written the screenplays for ANH and TPM on his own. empire was co-written with leigh brackett and lawrance kasdan, jedi was kasdan and lucas, and clones was lucas and jonathan hales.

i agree that there is a lot of squabbling, but i think it's more an effect of how adamant everyone is of their pet plot points than anyone thinking that they know a lot more than anyone else. that's why i've taken a break, a little breather from the thread. just to clear my head a little and realize that it's not really all personal attacks, just strong defense.

That's mostly correct...except for

ANH was originally written by Lucas, but massively polished by Huyck and Katz (from American Grafitti). Before their touches, the screenplay was nearly incomprehensible.

Leigh Brackett's involvement ended with her death. So did much of her contribution. As the story goes, her name remained on the film out of respect or something. Kasdan pretty much wrote the whole of Empire as well as Jedi.

TPM was all Lucas.

AOTC was mostly Lucas with touch ups from Jonathan Hales.

The bottom line: Lucas has a great vision for a wonderous universe and an interesting plot idea to fit into it. However, he can't write a decent screenplay to save his life.

MFH
07-11-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Tycho
I really find it hard to believe that people think Anakin will fall into and completely get submerged in lava.


You haven't read the ROTJ book, have you? And don't say it wasn't written by GL. He didn't direct the movie, either.

Geological facts? Bringing science into SW is a waste of time. Can you hear tie fighters on your tail in space? No.

MFH
07-11-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn
even still, when luke calls himself skywalker to leia at the detention block, then it's prematurely ruined...

Ruined for who??? Do you actually think there are Star Wars fans that will see all three prequels before they see the OT for the first time? If that's the case, then they aren't huge fans and it won't matter that much to them. Maybe your talking about younger kids? Well, if they liked Episodes 1 and 2, then mommy and daddy probably already rented/bought the OT for them.

And it wasn't prematurely ruined in 1977. We didn't know Vader's name was Anakin Skywalker until ROTJ.

darthvyn
07-11-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by MFH


Ruined for who??? Do you actually think there are Star Wars fans that will see all three prequels before they see the OT for the first time? If that's the case, then they aren't huge fans and it won't matter that much to them. Maybe your talking about younger kids? Well, if they liked Episodes 1 and 2, then mommy and daddy probably already rented/bought the OT for them.

And it wasn't prematurely ruined in 1977. We didn't know Vader's name was Anakin Skywalker until ROTJ.

uh, do you actually know what you're arguing about?

i am discussing how difficult it will be to maintain the secrets of the OT in ep III. there are many people in the forum who want NO information divulged about vader's, luke's and leia's identities. i, however, am not one of them.

i know that the identity of vader wasn't ruined in 1977, but we do know that he's luke's father at the end of Empire. there are a bunch of people that want it to stay that way, even if you watch all the movies in number order, not production order.

anyway, so as not to re-type everything i have already, i suggest you read the last couple of pages of any thread before you post something.

Nebulaz
07-11-2002, 04:06 AM
as believeable as that was its still just opinion and rumor, we're not sure yet, so dont put anyone out of place until we know facts. Just let people give their sides like we do yours, and keep it positive and reinforcive.

Jedi Knightrider
07-11-2002, 06:43 PM
I don't know where this came from, but if true, it really belongs in the "spoilers" section, not the "non-spoilers" section.

Jedi Clint
07-11-2002, 06:54 PM
Jedi_Bates,

I have the text of your post if you want to add it to a discussion in the E3 Spoilers forum. I guarantee there is already one over there discussing this issue :).

Tycho
07-11-2002, 07:12 PM
JediClint: I think he meant this thread was fully of spoilers.

However, we don't have any yet as the script must be finished, circulated, and stuff must get going and leaking so far as set construction, location scouting, parts auditions for casting, etc.

Since none of that is done, there are no spoilers yet save for I think what George Lucas said about Boba Fett. The years between AOTC and E3 shouldn't be a spoiler either. That's been made official on the Lucas-owned site.

So meanwhile, I argue that something should be reasoned out and argued here in the non-spoiler section. If you look at the above paragraph, I didn't even post what I think Lucas wants to be common knowledge - though I probably screwed up elsewhere in this forum.

But the point is that this section is for discussing our hopes and expectations of Episode 3. If some of our story ideas seem really realistic and logical, why should they be spurned and sent off to the spoiler section in favor of the really strange and off-the-wall theories like "Yoda is Darth Vader" or whatever?

Once enough spoilers are leaking (and I'm electing to read them), I won't be allowed back here to say I can confirm my theories or not. I'll have to wait until May 25, 2005 to say "I told you so," or "Oops did I have that wrong!"

Anyway, Star Wars does try to be realistic most of the time. The TIE fighter sounds in space are cool because they're not important and Ben Burt is just trying to put that in there to make it sound cool (and it does!) But Anakin's fate must be very believable and realistic, because the fact that he's alive and walking around as Vader is the big leap of faith we're being asked to make. I don't think they'll make us redefine the laws of physics any more than SW already does ;)

Jedi Clint
07-11-2002, 07:28 PM
Perhaps Mr. Knight can clarify if Jedi_Bates' Time magazine quote was the post he was referring to here:


Originally posted by Jedi Knightrider
I don't know where this came from, but if true, it really belongs in the "spoilers" section, not the "non-spoilers" section.

One way or the other the post I axed had a reference to a Time magazine article regarding the basis of this discussion. Even if it wasn't Lucasfilm approved, I think it counted as spoilers.

MFH
07-12-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by darthvyn


uh, do you actually know what you're arguing about?

anyway, so as not to re-type everything i have already, i suggest you read the last couple of pages of any thread before you post something.

Darthvyn,

I had already read all the posts. But, at your suggestion, I read them again. And again. I think I understand what you mean. It can't be spoiled for us, because we already know. We've watched the OT many times. But, don't reveal it in the story until ESB. Right?

And don't talk to me like I'm an idiot, since you don't know who I am.:p :mad: :evil: :crazed:

darthvyn
07-13-2002, 12:22 PM
judging by the amount of interrogative punctuation after your first sentence, i felt you were talking to ME like I was an idiot, and sort of responded in kind. sorry if i was mistaken...

anyway, yes, that's BASICALLY what i'm getting at, but in the hypothetical situation of someone completely new to star wars, that watches the episodes in number order, if lucas tries to keep the secrets of 4-6 intact after ep. 3, the secret of who anakin's child is will be prematurely ruined when luke tells leia his last name. put that with the fact that we will HAVE to know ben is lying to luke about his father, the "secret" will almost definitely be leaked before the true revelation at the end of empire.

however, this is just my agrument AGAINST keeping the secrets of the OT intact after ep. III. we are basically arguing the same side, just in different words. i feel that to side-step the major issues that come together in ep.III, so that the secrets of the OT remain intact will lead to poor story development. i am all for keeping the secrets as long as the best story possible is told, i.e. as long as it doesn't detract from the movie as a whole. if it feels over-subtle, or leaves a lot of things in question, i will not be happy.

and, i know i don't know you, but i get the feeling i do. paranoia runs rampant on these forums these days.:crazed:

MFH
07-13-2002, 12:59 PM
darthvyn-

I understand and I agree. And, I meant no offense with my extra punctuation.

DarthBatman
07-13-2002, 07:07 PM
Well this thread has fallen upon hard times..

Jedi Knightrider
07-13-2002, 08:39 PM
Yeah, I think everyone kinda cooled it on the speculation, or everyone is in the forum I dare not enter:

SPOILERS! DUN DUN dun!

Toad
07-17-2002, 02:04 PM
Wow, I just read this for the first time. The title alone caught my attention -- though I don't like being called an idiot. ;)

Then I read Tycho's take on geology. Since I studied it for years, I'd love to talk about it. The facts presented about geology are, in fact, not factual. The inner core of the Earth (not all planets) is solid iron, due to immense pressure and high temperatures. The outer core is fluid iron and sulphur. (EDIT - I'll take all my geology stuff past here out since it isn't relevant and really just nitpicky :))

It's fascinating stuff, really -- but I don't know that George Lucas cares too much about the science behind all his movies. After all, isn't travelling at light speed impossible? Well, to be fair, it actually IS possible -- particles do travel at light speed, as synthesized in a lab -- but that's not really the point. The point is -- maybe Anakin WILL fall into lava, you never know.

I think that anything is possible in these movies. No one's opinions are fact. Nothing is fact, yet.

I do agree with lots of things Tycho says about what may happen in Ep. III, but our shared opinion that seeing Anakin don the armor to become Vader ruins things is just an opinion -- obviously some of you are of the opinion that it would be best to see that! (Maybe these are the "idiots" Tycho spoke of....;))

Great thread though -- lots of interesting stuff!!

die-jarjar-die
07-17-2002, 07:52 PM
Just been rereading the entire thread....I've read all posts as they came along but hadn't posted here as yet, just enjoyed the banter!

However now I have something I'd like to share with you all & get your opinions on.

Whilst reading about whether Anakins identity should remain a secret until ESB to "preserve" the shocking revelation, I have an idea on how it COULD be revealed that Anakin/Vader are one & the same & still it be a surprise in ESB.

For my theory to work you will have to recall the 1st meeting between Dooku & Obi-Wan on Geonosis in AOTC. As you all know Dooku tells Obi-Wan that "a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious now controls the Senate". Obi refuses to believe Dooku's LIES and at the end of the movie discusses this with Mace Windu and Yoda. Yoda states that Dooku's motives are shrowded in "deceit and lies" basically stating that by turning to the Dark Side nothing he says should be wholely believed.

We also know that Lucas likes to reuse themes from the other films to create a sort of "opera".

Isn't it at all possible that he could reuse THIS theme and revelation in Ep3?

Vader IS Anakin Skywalker, but by having Anakin fall into temptation and join the Dark Side, his words will be discredited and not be heeded. This would allow the viewer to "suspect" that this Black Armour clad warrior COULD be Anakin, but for the 1st time viewer, having already seen Dooku's words ignored would again be made to think that this is a RED HERRING, of sorts.

Thus the revelation in ESB would still remain, not the shocking revelation it once was BUT still allowing the viewer to react in surprise and shock. This Dark Lord, whose words have up to this point been taken as lies are now confirmed as being the TRUTH. This would also work with the SW fans, who, like myself probably s******ed their heads off as Dooku stated the obvious to Obi-Wan, only for his REVELATION to be treated with contempt by the Jedi Council.

This would also allow for the plot development of the Jedi's decline in their usage of the Force. Now not only are their powers being clouded by the Dark Side but also their ability to reason and determine the truth is being corrupted, leading to their eventual downfall.

Toad
07-18-2002, 09:46 AM
Interesting theory, but I'm going to stick to my hope that the audience will think Anakin Skywalker dies. At the end, maybe with 5 minutes to go, we see someone putting on the costume we know will be Darth Vader. The audience who hasn't seen the OT won't know this -- they'll find out in Ep. IV --- it's standard dramatic effect, a cliffhanger if you will.

The reason is that, because Vader's revelation to Luke that he is, in fact, Anakin Skywalker is so important, and very crucial to the entire saga, to know Anakin is Vader before hand diminishes its value.

You can say that "it's still dramatic and a mystery to Luke", and you'd be right. But what's more important? The audience.

darthvyn
07-18-2002, 08:28 PM
arrrright, let's get to it...

just think how interesting it would be for everyone to be in on the secret EXCEPT luke... the lines "...he's got too much of his father in him." - "that's what i'm afraid of." WE know why he's afraid, now!!!

the main thing about the donning of the armor at the very end, is the fact that darth vader helped the emperor hunt down and destroy the jedi. if that happens off screen btwn III and IV, that's going to be very disappointing (to me, maybe not everyone...) i doubt very much that the plot will side-step anakin's fall to the dark side. the prequels are about HIM. as i've said before, if we don't see his darkest moment, his choice gone awry, that will be weak story telling. i'm not saying he has to have the armor on, but i'm saying he will be darth vader a lot sooner than he wears it.

i envision a climax similar to ROJ, where whatever luke does, he turns to the dark side, so he chooses to do nothing. i think a similar conflict will happen in III, only anakin will not make the right decision (obviously) and succumb to the dark side. probably a scene that takes place between dooku, sidious, and anakin.

once again, as i have said earlier, i have a fascination with the sith rites of passage, and would like to see how anakin is dubbed darth vader. does he choose the name? does sidious?

i really would like to see anakin become a jedi knight at the beginning of the movie, and toward the end become a sith. i think that would be the perfect bracketing for the central movie, to expose some of the central themes.

well, i like the fact that this thread is getting back on it's feet. i've had quite some time to cool my heels. now it's back into the frying pan...

die-jarjar-die
07-18-2002, 09:58 PM
darthvyn, I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

Another way of analysing & trying to predict how things will play out is to again refer to the PT & how it is setting up scenes for the OT. For instance, AOTC has Obi-Wan commenting lightly that Anakin "will be the death of him". Now for all those hardcore SW vets out there this is a highly amusing scene, a foreshadowing of the future, however anyone watching the Trilogy for the 1st time would casually dismiss this and come ANH will be in for the shock of their lives. Now if it is known to the audience that Anakin and Vader ARE the same person the entire scene in ANH and Obi-Wans sacrifice becomes all the more poignant.

Using this meager example it COULD be possible to reveal only to the audience that Vader is Anakin and thus preserve the shock factor for the revelation yet to come.....

Jedi Clint
07-18-2002, 10:05 PM
I think falling to the dark side and becoming a Sith Lord are 2 entirely seperate events.

I agree that we will see Anakin strike down Count Dooku, but I don't think that event has to occur at the end of the film. My bet is that the giant duel at the end will take place between Anakin and Obi Wan.

Remember folks.....No Spoilers!

Tycho
07-19-2002, 02:35 AM
If Dooku is Anakin's father, it will have all the more intensity.

I don't think Uncle Owen knows that Anakin is still alive and has become Darth Vader. It's possible, but it's equally likely that he doesn't know. He still can disapprove of Anakin's decision to murder the Tusken Raiders and then suddenly go off on a crusade to save Obi-Wan on Geonosis. But the movie wasn't even clear if Owen knew where they were going.

If Owen learns the rest of the story, it would most likely be from Obi-Wan.

I have more to say, but this will be enough for now.

rynobot
07-21-2002, 10:00 PM
its to bad Tycho that all of your argument is speculation. Untill Episode 3 is in production and released we will never know how anything will fit together.

Darth Grifter
07-28-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Tycho
If Dooku is Anakin's father, it will have all the more intensity.

I don't think Uncle Owen knows that Anakin is still alive and has become Darth Vader. It's possible, but it's equally likely that he doesn't know. He still can disapprove of Anakin's decision to murder the Tusken Raiders and then suddenly go off on a crusade to save Obi-Wan on Geonosis. But the movie wasn't even clear if Owen knew where they were going.

If Owen learns the rest of the story, it would most likely be from Obi-Wan.

I have more to say, but this will be enough for now.

Ok Tycho...but what about the way Uncle Owen talks about that "Old Wizard" Ben Kenobi, in ANH. His attitude and subtext suggest that he believes little of anything that Obi-Wan has to say or has said in the past about anything. I agree and don't agree about Dooku being the father. If he is, yes, the circle will be complete and both parts would echo or mirror or "rhyme" in the way that GL so neatly wants them to. However, it could just be that Anakin is told by Palpatine that Dooku has killed Padme and his passion takes over and in a fit of rage he kills Dooku to avenge Padme's death. No fatherly connection, just pure anger and hatred, just what Palpatine wants. His destruction of Dooku would both confirm Palpatine's deceat and disregard for the expendability of life and allies, as well as push young Skywalker into the bottomless pit of the dark side.

Tell me what you think

Tycho
10-29-2002, 11:21 PM
I finally found this thread again. I'm not subscribed to a lot of my old posts since we changed servers.

I think your theory could be true. Palpatine will surely manipulate Anakin.

Of course something happening to Padme will goad Anakin into releasing all his rage. Look what happened on the gunship when she fell out...

Lord Malakite
05-19-2005, 07:43 PM
Tycho, I deleted your post for containing a movie spoiler. Not everyone has seen the movie yet. ;) I may undelete it in a week or so when more people have gotten a chance to see it.

Tycho
10-26-2005, 02:34 AM
Genius that I am, I went back and found this thread and that I was right: Anakin did not fall IN the lava. I am so inteligent.

LTBasker
10-26-2005, 05:23 AM
I am so inteligent.

That would be "intelligent." :p

I understand, hard to type around all that ego... :beard:

2-1B
10-26-2005, 10:14 AM
Yet not intelligent enough to avoid that Solo-Is-A-Clone theory when the idea came to you, Tycho. lol lol lol

JimJamBonds
10-26-2005, 10:44 AM
Yet not intelligent enough to avoid that Solo-Is-A-Clone theory when the idea came to you, Tycho. lol lol lol

It might come true in the TV series where we find out a new clone source was needed, thus Han is a clone. :p

Rocketboy
10-26-2005, 11:13 AM
Genius that I am, I went back and found this thread and that I was right: Anakin did not fall IN the lava. I am so inteligent.And after reading that first post...that was about all that was right. :D

El Chuxter
10-26-2005, 11:40 AM
Ah, but he did fall into lava, from a certain point of view. And you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view. ;)

sith_killer_99
10-26-2005, 12:42 PM
T, didn't you also say:


I also want to shoot those volcano planet theories down once and for all...

I thought Mustafar was a volcano planet?!?!:confused: ;)

BTW, his legs did fall into lava. LOL;) What are we...but the sum of our parts. Again...point of view.:thumbsup: But Mustafar is a volcano planet.


Watch Terminator 2 again and see what happens when the T-1000 falls into molten metal (lava is the same thing - the earth is composed of super-heated molten metals - that's what lava is).

Actaully, I believe that lava is molten rock. When it cools you don't see sheets of metal running down the side of a volcano, it cools into rock. Though there may be some metalic trace minerals, I can't say for sure.;)

But you may be right about the Han-is-a-clone, or not?!?!;)

2-1B
10-27-2005, 01:58 AM
So who's the idiot now, Tycho ? lol lol lol

JEDIpartner
10-27-2005, 08:46 AM
D'oh!!!!! One shot down... 19,999 more to go!

JediTricks
10-27-2005, 10:19 PM
I firmly believe that Lucas originally wrote and filmed the scene with Anakin going into the lava, there's even a couple pieces of ROTS merchandise which reflect this.

bobafrett
10-27-2005, 11:23 PM
I firmly believe that Lucas originally wrote and filmed the scene with Anakin going into the lava, there's even a couple pieces of ROTS merchandise which reflect this.

Yes, and he had Anakin screaming "Help me, I'm melting" and he comes out as the Terminator endoskeleton (sp?).

darthvyn
10-31-2005, 03:37 PM
I am so inteligent.

don't you mean...

{homer simpson voice}
i am so smart.
i am so smart.
S-M-R-T...
i mean
S-M-AR-T.
{/homer simpson voice}


I firmly believe that Lucas originally wrote and filmed the scene with Anakin going into the lava, there's even a couple pieces of ROTS merchandise which reflect this.

yeah, but then he read this thread and was like "hooops! looks like i'm an idiot..." and re-shot the entire scene.

2-1B
06-24-2006, 11:08 PM
I still think he should have fallen into Lava (for I am an idiot). lol

No seriously, in that ROTS Chosen One featurette Papa Jorge says that in the original backstory Anakin was injured at a volcano but in this movie he thought it was important to SEE what happens to him for his actions or whatever...and they have Jorge saying this while showing ROTS footage of him burning.

I really don't know if George meant that Anakin would literally fall into Lava (for the idiots) in that old backstory or if he was still being vague...but reading JT's thoughts about a possible switch on this does have me wondering. :confused:

Tycho
06-25-2006, 04:46 AM
George Lucas did read our message boards during the summer of 2002 or 2003, and he determined that he didn't want the President of the Mouse Droid Sniffers' Association or Stillakid thinking he was an idiot. Certainly not both of them. So he re-wrote the scene and didn't have Anakin taking a swan dive into lava afterall, then using the Force to prevent himself from being totally consumed by it, emerging, and regrowing skin on himself to look like a digitaly rendered young Sebastian Shaw. This scene was too hard for ILM to work out anyway, so hence ROTS shaped up to depict the scene as we're now accustomed to it.

2-1B
06-25-2006, 02:05 PM
nice try at a retcon. :thumbsup:

scruffziller
06-25-2006, 09:23 PM
Ah, but he did fall into lava, from a certain point of view. And you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our point of view. ;)

Then all you have to do to find the one truth is to be as specific and deatailed as possible in description.

2-1B
02-21-2008, 07:12 PM
Then all you have to do to find the one truth is to be as specific and detailed as possible in description.

Idiots are mentally incapable of comprehending detailed descriptions. :thumbsup:

Tycho
02-26-2008, 08:29 PM
I was right all along. Anakin did NOT fall into the lava.

I AM so smart!

El Chuxter
02-27-2008, 04:43 PM
He will in Clone Wars. That's how he gets his scar.

And how his Padawan dies.

But don't feel bad. Asajj Ventress dies and comes back seven times in that episode, so they're even.

Jedi_Kal-El
02-27-2008, 06:44 PM
He will in Clone Wars. That's how he gets his scar.

And how his Padawan dies.

But don't feel bad. Asajj Ventress dies and comes back seven times in that episode, so they're even.

Isn't Asajj suppose to die and come back in the Live Action show too?

BTW, and just to be a master of the obvious, you have egg on your face Chux.

2-1B
04-23-2008, 01:40 AM
Isn't Asajj suppose to die and come back in the Live Action show too?

Probably...

JON9000
04-23-2008, 10:45 AM
I nominate this thread for the award for "Greatest Thread Title of All Time"

JEDIpartner
04-25-2008, 10:52 AM
I thought Anakin got his scar when he tried to kiss Padme good-bye and one of her crazy headdresses hit his face as she turned the other way.