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darthvyn
06-04-2002, 03:05 PM
So i just watched Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back today, and the "blunt bong saber" that bob uses to defend himself looks like it might have been the inspiration for or at least influential on the design for dooku's lightsaber hilt. i'll try to post a screenshot, but it's bent maybe 1/3rd of the way from the bottom. seems to me that the homage to star wars in JaSBSB has influenced the real deal...

Beast
06-04-2002, 03:14 PM
Nope, the hilt is designed so that Christopher Lee could use it in a fencing style. Chris Lee is a well known, accomplished fencer, and it was felt that they should play up that strength with the design of his hilt. A regular straight hilted saber, wouldn't have been able to be used for fencing moves. But by making the hilt, in a bent shape, it could be used for parrying, and thrusting. And of course, Dooku's little saber salute to Yoda. :)

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

darthvyn
06-04-2002, 04:39 PM
ooooh, shot DOWN!

darthvyn
06-04-2002, 04:40 PM
still, it could be an influence, just not the ONLY one...

pthfnder89
06-04-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by darthvyn
still, it could be an influence, just not the ONLY one...

Well the problem I was thinking of is that all the preproduction and design work was done long before J&SB was being filmed.

So you might argue that if Kevin Smith got to see any of the AOTC designs while they were filming Ep2, then Dookus design might have influenecd HIM...:D

Honeslty though I think its just a funny coincidence. I'll never watch the Dooku/Obi Wan fight the same way.;)

darthvyn
06-04-2002, 06:43 PM
the reverse influence was siomething i considered as well...

JediTricks
06-04-2002, 08:44 PM
JJB, where did you hear that? I don't think that flies at all because in fencing, a foil and a saber both have straight handles. The foil has a straight blade, and a saber has a slightly curved blade, but the handle is straight. In fact, the classic SW lightsaber is basically a fencing foil except without the button tip and handle guard, and while the SW characters use them more as sabers and katanas, the are straight like the foil.

The curved handle of the Dooku lightsaber is more reminiscent of a scimitar, though unlike a scimitar the lightsaber blade doesn't continue the curve. According to the official site (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/bts.html), the sword that they based it off of is a barong:

The shape of Dooku's lightsaber, with its arabesque curved handle, came out of earlier exploration of Sith villains. Art Department Assistant Roel Robles brought in a number of Filipino swords, knives and spears to provide inspiration for weapon-shapes. One particular sword, a barong, had a curved handle that provided a firmer grip for the combatant.

The pic I found of a barong has a fat, flat, leaf-like straight blade with a handle which is curved beneath the main handle area:
http://www.trainingblades.com/mainfo/images/barong2.jpg
http://www.agrussell.com/faq/images/128-6.gif

I've always felt that Dooku's saber would make a stronger attack, but much more difficult to defend with. If it had a curved blade (which, thank Lucas, it did NOT!), it would be easier to defend with as it would have more of a flow rather than a "lever" feel.

Mandalorian Candidat
06-05-2002, 03:09 PM
Then, JT, couldn't you say that the lightsaber just represents any sword, since they're pretty much all straight, just with different sized handles and blades?

I don't see how a bent handle could improve the fencing style at all. I think it was just put in as a cool little feature, just like the double-bladed saber for DM. It's gotta be just a gimmick.

chris
06-05-2002, 07:13 PM
A double-bladed saber in E1, a curved hilt in E2, a bong lightsaber can't be far behind

NRPeace
06-05-2002, 10:34 PM
Actually, you can fence just as well with a straight-hilted sword. That's what they give to beginning fencers. More advanced fencers, especially American ones, go with a "pistol grip" epee, rapier or saber. The Dooku saber looks like it was derived from this. It also helps wrist strain like those ergonomic tennis rackets. I've also seen bongs shaped just like the bongsaber with the curve and the finger grips. They work pretty well, too.

saladin
06-06-2002, 12:03 AM
chris what are you thinking star wars could never have something like that in there, it's PG, shame shame.

saladin
06-06-2002, 12:05 AM
if you look in the Art of AOTC book you see they actually wanted a women and always wanted a curved hilt, not because of CL's fencing expirence

JediTricks
06-06-2002, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by Mandalorian Candidat
Then, JT, couldn't you say that the lightsaber just represents any sword, since they're pretty much all straight, just with different sized handles and blades?

I don't see how a bent handle could improve the fencing style at all. I think it was just put in as a cool little feature, just like the double-bladed saber for DM. It's gotta be just a gimmick. Not at all, many swords have a slight curve to them.

NRPeace, would you say that a curved-handle w/ a totally straight blade is at all commonplace? I'm by no means a fencing expert, but I've never seen this before and when I thought about it, it seems like a foreign idea to me - very hard to defend from, but a good lever for powerful attacks. (Not that it mattered much IMO since Lee was choking way up at the top of that saber most of the time anyway.)

NRPeace
06-07-2002, 09:22 AM
JediTricks,

Any pistol grip epee or rapier works on the same principle and has a straight blade. The pistol grip isn't curved like that, but it helps the fencer control the sword with his palm in a perpendicular plane to the ground (as opposed to having the palm turned up, which is how you use a straight-handled fencing sword) . This gives you more available strength since most of the power is coming from the elbow and the shoulder instead of just the wrist. It's a little hard to describe without pictures, but the curved-handle, straight-blade sword can be held as an extention of the sword arm while the wrist is in a comfortable position (palm facing in. Just look at the action figures: The dooku saber can be positioned so it's almost in the same plane as the figures arm, where a straight-handled saber would point straight up and be perpendicular to the figures arm). A curved blade would only be good for slashing in one direction, wheras a lightsaber can cut in any direction. At any rate, the curved hilt and straight blade allows for more strength, more range, and more flexibility of movement. I'm not sure if this was developed from the scimitar or barong, but I'm pretty sure it works on the pistol grip idea from saber fencing. I hope this clears something up.

JediTricks
06-07-2002, 11:14 PM
Sure does, though I still haven't found a visual aide on this "pistol grip" for the epee or rapier so it's still just imagination at the moment.

What about my theory of weakened defense though? I would think that for lightsaber-style fighting, the curved handle would make it more difficult to defend from lightsaber attacks - especially strong ones.

NRPeace
06-08-2002, 11:11 AM
Here's a link to a fencing supply site:

http://www.allstar-usa.com/

Click misc. and look for grips or pommels. They have some good pictures.

You're right. Attack would be easier that defence. The grip is great for thrusts and normal parries, but blocking a slash wouldn't be as easy, at least if you were holding the saber with one hand. I think if you use two hands it acts more like a straight hilted sword. I'll have to play around with it and see. They may have come up with a surprisingly good hilt design, probably without even knowing it. I still haven't figured out what the spikey thing is for.

JediTricks
06-09-2002, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the link, the're even more extreme angles than the Dooku saber, I think.

I'm glad to hear I was at least right in my belief that defense would be more difficult. As for 2-handed, would that require a little awkwardness for the shoulders when moving the saber off to the side of the body?

Total guessing here, but I'd guess the hook above the hilt is a blade-controller or something. I was wondering about the big, off-center cylinder at the bottom, perhaps a gyroscope for easier control? (Hey, it's sci-fi, it doesn't have to make sense ;))

pthfnder89
06-10-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by JediTricks

What about my theory of weakened defense though? I would think that for lightsaber-style fighting, the curved handle would make it more difficult to defend from lightsaber attacks - especially strong ones.

You're right, it seems like the curved hilt would make it harder to defend. And that idea is kind of confirmed by the Visual Dictionary.

According to it, there are 7 "Forms" of lightsaber style, and most Jedi focus on studying one of them. Obi Wan uses Form 3 which is mainly a defensive style.

Dooku uses Form 2 which is an ancient Form, used mostly for very precise, attacking blows.