The Clone Wars: season 5

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Originally Posted by Tycho

**Officially, Darth Maul was brought back by Dark Horse Comics (and unfortunately) who started with the lower-half cyborg body. Dark Horse also saw $$$ for trying to satisfy expectations that Maul would be the ultimate new Sith Lord. So they brought him back for cash and a portion of the fan segment who wanted more Maul.

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This wasn't canon - it was a one-shot in Visionaries, nothing more than an exercise in "what if?" It influenced the design of Maul in TCW, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by JediTricks

It wasn't his leg, it was his knee - I guess 5th time's a charm. That made no sense to me, they intentionally showed 3 or 4 previous attempts on his knees and he shook them all off, were they wearing him down? It didn't make sense to me.

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I thought that was exactly it - they were wearing it down, and he could only take so many direct hits to the knee.

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Originally Posted by JediTricks

And why exactly does Maul's robot leg bleed green gassy goo the same way Savage's arm does? Is it due to them both being rebuilt by Nightsister powers? That could have used more explanation, it stood out not in a good way.

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Again, your possible answer is what I thought was the case. Talzin created Maul's legs similarly to how she made Savage into a monster, so it's a reminder of their dark, strange origins.

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Originally Posted by JediTricks

Sounded like Ian Abercrombie to me, and he was credited. I think Palps was annoyed that someone else was moving in on the Sith action and was going to deal with it himself or via Dooku (it'd be nice to see Dooku earn his Sith keep).

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It was definitely Abercrombie for most of the time, but there's one sentence - at around 20:40 in the episode, after Obi-Wan comments on Maul trying to form an army of pirates, Palpatine says, "So let him. Let him play with the rabble. They're just petty crooks. It is of no relevance to the Senate compared to the Separatist threat." The "They're just petty crooks" line sticks out like a sore thumb, even though everything around it sounded normal, so I'm thinking it was some ADR done after Abercrombie died by a different actor. It sounds nothing like him, and it was mixed bizarrely when I watched it on TV.

With the smaller $20 price point ships, and Hondo Ohnaka's pirate ships appearing again, don't you think Hasbro can offer the Rapier-One?

This is the Weequay flying saucer fighters (the smaller ones as compared to the big mother ship they once salvaged Dooku's solar sailor from).

I'd love it if it came with a unique Weequay pirate figure that hadn't been made previously (not the one from the Hostage Crisis battlepack, nor another Hondo).

This ship need only hold one figure and have firing twin blasters mounted on it at the cross frame.

I also wish they'd make Hondo's tank from the bounty hunter episode with Embo and Seripas. I'm not sure, but maybe they used similar tanks when JarJar took over one when he tried to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from Hondo.

I don't recall if the new ships will include pack-in figures or not.

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Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL

I thought that was exactly it - they were wearing it down, and he could only take so many direct hits to the knee.

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That is video game logic, it's worthless in regular fiction. If they had shown Savage grimacing on the last hit or limping or even favoring the other leg and Obi-Wan commented on it, MAYBE they could get away with it, but none of that happened. Kenobi looked at the leg yet again and kicked it just like he did before when he got no results, yet magically because the plot needed to move along with Kenobi not dead, that time it worked. It's bad storytelling and it's also annoying in video games.

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Again, your possible answer is what I thought was the case. Talzin created Maul's legs similarly to how she made Savage into a monster, so it's a reminder of their dark, strange origins.

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If there was some active explanation taken maybe it could get away with being so vastly different from everything else in SW, but why would robot legs act anything like humanoid flesh? If the legs are so magical, why bother being robotic at all? It's another logic-hole that creates a nigh-subconscious distraction.

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It was definitely Abercrombie for most of the time, but there's one sentence - at around 20:40 in the episode, after Obi-Wan comments on Maul trying to form an army of pirates, Palpatine says, "So let him. Let him play with the rabble. They're just petty crooks. It is of no relevance to the Senate compared to the Separatist threat." The "They're just petty crooks" line sticks out like a sore thumb, even though everything around it sounded normal, so I'm thinking it was some ADR done after Abercrombie died by a different actor. It sounds nothing like him, and it was mixed bizarrely when I watched it on TV.

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I didn't notice, it could be an odd line read, or it could be what you said. I didn't save it.

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Originally Posted by Tycho

With the smaller $20 price point ships, and Hondo Ohnaka's pirate ships appearing again, don't you think Hasbro can offer the Rapier-One?

This is the Weequay flying saucer fighters (the smaller ones as compared to the big mother ship they once salvaged Dooku's solar sailor from).

I'd love it if it came with a unique Weequay pirate figure that hadn't been made previously (not the one from the Hostage Crisis battlepack, nor another Hondo).

This ship need only hold one figure and have firing twin blasters mounted on it at the cross frame.

I also wish they'd make Hondo's tank from the bounty hunter episode with Embo and Seripas. I'm not sure, but maybe they used similar tanks when JarJar took over one when he tried to rescue Anakin and Obi-Wan from Hondo.

I don't recall if the new ships will include pack-in figures or not.

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No, I don't think it'd work in that pricepoint, it's a very flat saucer and has no external features aside from the engines which aren't terribly thick.

The new $20 vehicles don't come with figures.

to JediTricks:

well, I hope Hasbro surprises us. Although I begged for the Sith Infiltrator even off-scale and I was terribly WRONG about that, I stil would like to chance new vehicles never-made-before.

Possibly in that $20 price point.

Or better yet - they could offer something new in the $30 and up category (possibly over-priced for what it is) but still get us the Gungan Sub, Utopau Fighter, Gian Speeder, Slaver "blastboat" (the one I thought similar to the Skipray that Mara and Luke use), and the Z-95 plus more - like the Lars Landspeeder, Wookiee Catamaran, etc.

They cannot sell Jedi Starfighters or Slave-One (save for a Boba Fett repaint of the B-Slave-One) to most of us.

And while the kids would get the $20 ships, especially youngsters for whom that would be their very first Jedi Starfighter, the kids would also get (perhaps at Christmas time) the larger vehicles.

Now I did just buy the MTT the other month and I hope it does well at full retail price so there can be a Jabba Sailbarge, not to mention a Blockade Runner and Star Destroyer, a Republic Cruiser, Acclamator Class Destroyer, and Venerator Class, plus Separatist Frigate, etc. But other "larger but smaller" vehicles like Hondo's ships and tanks also need to see production. The only other "bad guy" characters besides Hondo or the Separatists who seems to have custom ships in CW are the bounty hunters and Mandalorians. In fact the ship that Embo and Seripas use is a repaint and heavily armed version of the HAZMAT vehicle Padme and JarJar use on Naboo if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, but Dooku and Ventress need their ships and maybe that Nightsister speederbike with sidecar?

Back to JabbaJohnL:

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Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL

there's still much more to this storyline throughout the season. The fight between Obi-Wan and the brothers ...

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I hope there's a point to it and not just fanwank.

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- I wasn't expecting him to break Savage's leg and take his arm, that was brutal.

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Yup. Cool. At least we saw a fight with consequences.

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It was great to see Hondo back, and I loved how he was proud of his men for being traitors. :D

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Hondo's one of my favorite characters. He's like an alien version of a Lando Calrissian. Hondo has some kind of honor amongst thieves in spite of denying it. He has some sort of off-the-mark-type of class. I think his taste for fancy clothes and his cavalier attitude is what reminds me of Lando.

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I wonder how Adi's different death will be handled. Previously, she was killed by Grievous in the Obsession arc of the Republic comics, though since Ventress' story is now so different than in there I doubt they'll be keeping much of it. If they do, maybe they'll just say Grievous wounded her and Savage actually killed her. I'm still wondering if Stass Allie will be introduced as well. I liked the Obsession story, but I won't be sad if they get rid of it and the Master Bayts character - that was just embarrassing that they let that get to print.

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LOL. I don't remember Master Bayts. Too funny. Did he have an apprentice Vasso Lyn?

Jedi Council deaths - hmmm?

TPM Jedi Council....

Yoda - died of natural causes (ROTJ)
Mace - killed ROTS by Palpatine and Anakin (presumably)
Plo Koon - killed by his Clone Pilots (ROTS)
Ki-Adi Mundi - killed by Cmdr. Bacara (ROTS)
SaeSee Tiin - killed by Palpatine (ROTS)
Eeth Koth - killed in CW by Grievous I think
Adi Gallia - killed in CW by Savage Opress (and there is another story in Dark Horse?)
Deppa Billaba - driven insane in Del Rey's Shatterpoint and put in Jedi lockdown. Unknown fate during Order 66.
Oppo Rancisis - killed in Dark Horse comics I think???
Even Piel - killed at the Citadel by Separatists in CW
Yaddle - killed before the Clone Wars in Scholastic Books' Jedi Apprentice
Yarael Poof - killed before the Clone Wars in "Zam Wessel" comic by Dark Horse

Coleman Trebor - killed by Jango Fett in AOTC
Shaak-Ti - possibly killed by Starkiller in The Force Unleashed by LucasArts

Stass Allie - killed by Neo in ROTS
Agen Kolar - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Kit Fisto - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Pablo Jill - fate unknown, location during Order 66 unknown - he was alive during part of ROTS

Anakin Skywalker - betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader (from a certain point of view)

Obi-Wan Kenobi - killed by Darth Vader

And some say there was a lizard species Jedi on the Council like Coleman Trebor's species or something similar to the creature in Palpatine's box seats at the Coruscant Opera. I don't think there was room on the 12-seat council for such a character.

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The moment with Palpatine at the end was very intriguing. Does he want the Jedi to ignore Maul so that Maul can cause more unrest apart from the war, as they acknowledged was happening already? Or is it just so he can take out Maul himself, as we see him attempt to do in the trailer?

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I haven't seen that trailer. Palpatine versus Maul? That'd be interesting. I think I saw Tyranus versus Maul in the trailer and Maul called Dooku a Sith Pretender.

There is an old story that said Anakin killed every Sith Lord before him, but in Dark Horse, Cyborg Maul survives to fight Obi-Wan on Tatooine. I think that's the Visionaries story JabbaJohn said was not cannon. (by the way, I can't stand there being non-congruent cannon - a chronology makes SW EU so special).

But if Anakin takes care of Maul, and then obviously Tyranus in ROTS, it would be interesting and consistent with an old tale that Vader slayed all his rivals (and we know he eventually took out Sidious in ROTJ to save Luke) so that does (sort of) make Vader the most powerful Sith Lord ever (even though he didn't have all the powers that Sidious and Tyranus displayed).

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The episode guide notes that Grievous' attack on the Florrum pirates was "a story that has yet to be told (though lucky viewers did get to see it at Celebration VI)," which must be the Young Jedi Knights arc/pilot for a new series/whatever it was.

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Something I missed that I would have actually liked to have been at CVI to experience.

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It was both cool and odd to see different Weequay designs for the first time since the pirates were introduced in Season One.

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Agreed. I love the Weequay pirates and I wish Hasbro would whip out a battlepack of several different designs so Hondo could have an army.

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Originally Posted by Tycho

Jedi Council deaths - hmmm?

TPM Jedi Council....

Yoda - died of natural causes (ROTJ)
Mace - killed ROTS by Palpatine and Anakin (presumably)
Plo Koon - killed by his Clone Pilots (ROTS)
Ki-Adi Mundi - killed by Cmdr. Bacara (ROTS)
SaeSee Tiin - killed by Palpatine (ROTS)
Eeth Koth - killed in CW by Grievous I think
Adi Gallia - killed in CW by Savage Opress (and there is another story in Dark Horse?)
Deppa Billaba - driven insane in Del Rey's Shatterpoint and put in Jedi lockdown. Unknown fate during Order 66.
Oppo Rancisis - killed in Dark Horse comics I think???
Even Piel - killed at the Citadel by Separatists in CW
Yaddle - killed before the Clone Wars in Scholastic Books' Jedi Apprentice
Yarael Poof - killed before the Clone Wars in "Zam Wessel" comic by Dark Horse

Coleman Trebor - killed by Jango Fett in AOTC
Shaak-Ti - possibly killed by Starkiller in The Force Unleashed by LucasArts

Stass Allie - killed by Neo in ROTS
Agen Kolar - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Kit Fisto - killed by Palpatine in ROTS
Pablo Jill - fate unknown, location during Order 66 unknown - he was alive during part of ROTS

Anakin Skywalker - betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader (from a certain point of view)

Obi-Wan Kenobi - killed by Darth Vader

And some say there was a lizard species Jedi on the Council like Coleman Trebor's species or something similar to the creature in Palpatine's box seats at the Coruscant Opera. I don't think there was room on the 12-seat council for such a character.

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Eeth Koth's death hasn't been depicted yet. The book Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones said that he died at the Battle of Geonosis, but no new footage was shot for AOTC - he was recast and then changed to Agen Kolar since the actors looked too different (it's the same thing that happened with Adi Gallia/Stass Allie and, less notably, Depa Billaba/Sarr Labooda), and he only appears in the Council scene in AOTC using archival TPM footage. That brief mention in that one book - his Geonosis death was never mentioned anywhere else - was retconned by The Clone Wars, in which he's presumably still alive and well, though he hasn't appeared since Season Three.

Oppo Rancisis was killed in the Republic comics by fallen Weequay Jedi Sora Bulq near the end of the war. He hasn't appeared in the show yet.

Pablo-Jill isn't in ROTS - just AOTC. According to the EU, he was killed by Grievous during the Battle of Coruscant (as depicted in Labyrinth of Evil, though he wasn't mentioned by name then). He was never on the Jedi High Council. The Ongree Jedi in ROTS is Coleman Kcaj. Neither character has appeared in the series, or in any other source other than their respective movies and the aforementioned appearance in Labyrinth of Evil.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Palpatine's opera box comment. Sweitt Concorkill appears in the box along with Mas Amedda and Sly Moore, and he is a Vurk like Coleman Trebor. (There was some naming confusion around the release of ROTS, shifting and mixing up the names of the various Vurk and Ongree characters, which is already bad enough with both species having a Jedi Council member named Coleman).

Could you name the Episode 3 Jedi Council and correct me if I make any error below:

TPM

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Adi Galia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piel
Yaddle
Yarael Poof
Depa Billaba


AOTC

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piel
Shaak-Ti
Coleman Trebor
Deppa Billaba

ROTS

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki Adi Mundi
SaeSee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Kit Fisto
Anakin Skywalker
Obi-Wan Kenobi
??? (Shaak-Ti - or is she injured by General Grievous (originally going to be her death but she lives for Force Unleashed)
??? (this is why I thought Pablo Jill was on the Council by this point)

Thank you.

Tycho, you're mostly correct, but I'll take the list and make some changes (including spelling).

TPM

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Yaddle
Yarael Poof
Depa Billaba


AOTC

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Shaak Ti
Coleman Trebor
Depa Billaba

Clone Wars micro-series

Yoda
Mace Windu
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Adi Gallia
Eeth Koth
Oppo Rancisis
Even Piell
Shaak Ti
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Kit Fisto

ROTS

Yoda
Mace
Plo Koon
Ki-Adi-Mundi
Saesee Tiin
Stass Allie
Agen Kolar
Coleman Kcaj
Shaak Ti
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Kit Fisto
Anakin Skywalker

Shaak Ti and Stass Allie are only seen on the Council via Yoda's hologram on Kashyyyk. The Shaak Ti scene on the Invisisble Hand with her getting stabbed by Grievous does not count, and neither does the deleted scene with her getting stabbed by Anakin in the Jedi Temple. In the current EU, she survives ROTS and Order 66 to be defeated by Starkiller on Felucia.

I included the micro-series just for reference. (The Adi Gallia and Eeth Koth characters were originally designated as Stass Allie and Agen Kolar there, but the animation models looked more like Adi and Eeth, and the current series and later EU said that those characters were still alive, so they were retconned into being Adi and Eeth.) The current series has never shown all seats taken, more likely due to not having all the available animation models at any given time than anything else. We've seen all the same characters from the micro-series Council, aside from Oppo Rancisis, though I don't think we've seen them all sitting in the chamber in the show. From the micro-series list, Adi Gallia and Even Piell have both died in the current series, so they have probably been replaced on the Council.

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Originally Posted by Tycho

Something I missed that I would have actually liked to have been at CVI to experience.

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I talked about the screening (which I didn't attend) in this thread.

So it looks like Anakin got Even Piel's seat.

Originally it was going to be Shaak-Ti's, eh?

I thought the Agen / Stass replacements occurred between TPM and AOTC because that's when they switched from London to Sydney for filming. Sure, they could have used old shots for fill-in. (guess they did) Seems cheap though, huh?

I always liked the update to Oppo for AOTC where you could see his tail moving.

There were also supposed to be:

4 permanent members
4 long term
4 short term
4 temporary / guest members

of the high council.

Do you know which were which?

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Originally Posted by Tycho

So it looks like Anakin got Even Piel's seat.

Originally it was going to be Shaak-Ti's, eh?

I thought the Agen / Stass replacements occurred between TPM and AOTC because that's when they switched from London to Sydney for filming. Sure, they could have used old shots for fill-in. (guess they did) Seems cheap though, huh?

I always liked the update to Oppo for AOTC where you could see his tail moving.

There were also supposed to be:

4 permanent members
4 long term
4 short term
4 temporary / guest members

of the high council.

Do you know which were which?

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The Agen/Stass replacements did indeed take place between TPM and AOTC due to recasting with Australian locals rather than English locals. That's why Agen and Stass appear in the new Geonosis footage and Eeth and Adi do not - but the footage in the Council chamber is recycled. Since there's only one full-council scene, it was just easier to do that than to rebuild the set. So AOTC features Eeth and Adi on Coruscant and Agen and Stass on Geonosis.

I'm not sure how the Council member terms are reflected in the films - I believe that was established in the TPM-era EU and reference books, but they didn't necessarily follow it while making the actual films.

I'm also not sure what you mean about Even Piell's seat being meant for Shaak Ti - she was on the Council for the entirety of The Clone Wars, before and after Even Piell's death.

You think they would've cast actors who looked more similar to the original actors for AOTC. I guess they didn't learn their lesson when everyone immediately recognized the "Mace Windu" in the Naboo landing scene as about as far from Samuel L Jackson as you can be and still be a bald African-American dude.