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  1. #1

    The road to immortality, Jedi ghosts, etc.

    I'm brainstormng here:

    Anakin appears as a ghost at the end of ROTJ but Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't teach him that.

    Palpatine appears to have multiple voices as well as multiple personalities. Perhaps he is a vessel carrying Darth Plageus and Plagues' Master as well? He doesn't seem to care about dying in his fight vs. Yoda. It's either insanity or extreme over-confidence.

    Perhaps "cheating death is a power only one has achieved" refers to Plageus saving his Master (un-named) and teaching this to Palpatine. In his Sith alchemy experiments (EU fans look to Naga Sadow) he also created the perfect Sith Lord (Anakin) and always intended Anakin to rule. Palpatine offed his Master because he feared Plageus would kill him and replace him with "his creation (his son, in a manner of speaking)."

    But those received would continue to rule eternally - like Plageus, etc - existing in the Force and contributing to the multiple voices of Palpatine. "A powerful Sith you will become." (It sounds like a Seer probing the future, not a current conqueror about to sieze power).

    So Palpatine was not afraid to die because he would exist in Anakin along with Plageus, etc.

    But the Jedi could do this as well. Qui-Gon was somehow caught in this "between life" and Yoda and Obi-Wan joined him. Anakin did as well since there was no continuation of the Sith line when Darth Vader died (we presume - or he joined with Luke - "Yoda will always be with you." etc.

    So Anakin returned with the Jedi (ROTJ - get it?) and the Sith were screwed with their concocted scheme.

    But it also explains "At last we will have revenge...."

    I wonder if I'm onto something here but I need to take a break and re-read and reconsider this.

  2. #2

    Re: The road to immortality, Jedi ghosts, etc.

    I don't think Palpatine's many voices are anything other than sheer creepiness. If they were, that definitely would have been addressed in the films.

    The Sith are not living on in their apprentices, as far as I know.

    Was the whole "only one has achieved" referring to Plagueis, and Palpatine thought he knew how to do what Plagueis did, but he actually didn't have the whole hang of sustaining life?

    Anakin's ability to become a ghost was apparently due to his extreme good deed, or something like that. We don't actually know for sure when the Endor party is, since it seemed like the Death Star was destroyed around morning and the party was at night (likely the same night). Obi and Yoda would have had enough time to give Anakin a crash course, with his first appearance on Endor. They probably gave him the full knowledge a little later, or something.

  3. #3
    It's a fairy tale ending and somehow, doesn't really matter how, the 2 ghosts Luke knew appeared with his pops to reinforce that yes, Anakin had been saved.

    What's that about the Sith creating the perfect Sith to rule? That's nonsense, why would a power-hungry Sith like Palps want to breed a better Sith than himself? That's crazy.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar
    It's a fairy tale ending and somehow, doesn't really matter how, the 2 ghosts Luke knew appeared with his pops to reinforce that yes, Anakin had been saved.

    What's that about the Sith creating the perfect Sith to rule? That's nonsense, why would a power-hungry Sith like Palps want to breed a better Sith than himself? That's crazy.
    Dunno . . . I kind of think that they did indeed create Anakin, though, and he wasn't just a creation of the midi-chlorians themselves. But that's really up for interpretation, I guess.

  5. #5
    I don't believe that the Sith created Anakin but even if they did, it's one thing to create a warrior to help bring down the fall of the Jedi but it's another thing to think that they wanted to create a great ruler. Why would Palps want a Sith more powerful than himself...so he can get himself killed?

    Sure Palps told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them but I think he was in part taunting Yoda since he turned the former Jedi away from the Order.

  6. #6
    That's what we're doing here: interpretting.

    Now Palpatine told Yoda that "Darth Vader will become stronger than either of [them]." I think he was prepared to die against Yoda if necessary and live on vicariously through Anakin. He was insane - his cackling and enjoyment of destroying the Jedi was over-the-top (I loved every minute of Ian having fun with the role, however). EU brought into it, Darth Bane and Zanna his first apprentice were emotionless and approved of that quality. Dooku told Ventress that the Sith have no fear, and the Jedi code says "There is no emotion" while Palpatine told Anakin that the Sith and the Jedi are alike in almost every way. Perhaps his recent Sith lineage's research into eternal life might have caused them to become imbalanced, unable to suppress their emotions - especially with several personalities cluttering their subconsciousness.

    But Anakin didn't deserve redemption or forgiveness from Yoda (maybe Obi-Wan) -but forgiveness isn't one of the Jedi principles - neither is holding a grudge for that matter. So why would they teach it to Anakin? Yeah he restored balance by killing Palpatine, but he killed younglings and other Jedi, etc. I'm sure Yoda wasn't thrilled with him. There wasn't time for a crash course. Vader died, and the Death Star was blowing up. Luke reached out to him. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to do so when "Vader" was wounded on Mustafar, and Yoda wasn't going to do it. In fact it would make more sense if Luke learned how to do this in becoming a Jedi Master, than if his father learned it from Obi-Wan or Yoda.

    I'm confused.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycho
    I'm confused.
    Eliminate all that EU nonsense and you won't be so confused.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycho
    Yeah he restored balance by killing Palpatine, but he killed younglings and other Jedi, etc. I'm sure Yoda wasn't thrilled with him. There wasn't time for a crash course. Vader died, and the Death Star was blowing up. Luke reached out to him. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to do so when "Vader" was wounded on Mustafar, and Yoda wasn't going to do it. In fact it would make more sense if Luke learned how to do this in becoming a Jedi Master, than if his father learned it from Obi-Wan or Yoda.
    All good points! However, for Lucas it just comes down to it's his metaphor for purgatory, and once Anakin redeems himself he reclaims the good and receives eternal reward for it. Personally, I don't like it either( suprise suprise, I know ) that "passage" has come down to instruction, I think it 'causes unecessary plot problems(as you have mentioned) and I think this demystifies the Force even more than the midichlorians as some have argued. But what I really don't like is the "young spirit" of Anakin as per Lucas' explanation because that was the last time he was "good". That's BS in my book, because If he is redeemed in order to receive eternal reward, than he is good again, and died with a good heart if you will, so the Sebatian ghost should never have been taken out!
    [FONT=ComicSansMS]"What happens in Indy STAYS in Indy!".[/FONT]
    [FONT=ComicSansMS]"The only thing you have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to you".[/FONT]

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar
    I don't believe that the Sith created Anakin but even if they did, it's one thing to create a warrior to help bring down the fall of the Jedi but it's another thing to think that they wanted to create a great ruler. Why would Palps want a Sith more powerful than himself...so he can get himself killed?

    Sure Palps told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than either of them but I think he was in part taunting Yoda since he turned the former Jedi away from the Order.
    Maybe he didn't care if HE was the big Sith daddy, just so long as there was one?

    It seems like the whole "Plagueis creating life" part was put there for a reason, moreso than just saving Padme's life.

  10. #10
    I know this topic is interesting, but it can't be more than Lucas tinkering around with his whole mythology angle and feeble attempts to make some kind of continuity that didn't exist until he started writing EP1. It can't be more than that.
    "I'm just a YES man trying to make my way in the universe." - Jango McCallum

    "Good dialogue and smooth editing are no match for a good YES man by your side, kid." - George Lucas

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