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  1. #1

    Exclamation Absolute Reality

    Against my better judgment, I am starting this possible power keg because several people PMed me about my ideas on Reality. For those whom are interested in having a serious discussion and sharing view points, I welcome you. However for those who are just going to complain that we are being egotistical because we have a shared interest which we would like to discuss, ‘Bugger Off‘! I don’t want this thread to be closed so serious posters please do not even respond to whiners and juvenile deviants. Hopefully the pure length and depth of this discussion will bore those individuals and they will leave. With that said lets start….

    What is Reality? It is the same as asking what is Truth or Consciousness or Existence or the universe/matter or God; for it is all the same thing, the same answer and the same question. There is one thing that I must bring to light before I start though. In order to get to the Absolute nature of a thing, you must first strip away all of your emotional feelings, your ideas and values, your morality and sense of what is right and wrong. We are all stuck in of perceptions of what is and not what ‘really’ is; we must delete ourselves from the situation in order to see it with clear eyes. With that said let us begin I will tell you the one single answer to all questions and the one single question to all answers.

    One is the only real number. However, One can not exist without something in opposition to itself; thus Two is born and One no longer exists as itself.

    Why is this? It is because the existence of One can only be verified when it is contrary to something else, Two. But isn’t this a contradiction? Yes and no. I am sure that most of us probably think that it is, but it is also not because One would, in actuality, still ‘Be’ without Two, but not in any sense that we would recognize it with our learned understanding of things. This is the only Absolute Truth, the only Absolute Reality and the only Absolute God.

    This is the short answer to the question, but the road traveled to the destination is half the voyage and so I will elaborate a bit with some excerpts from the early draft of my book that I am writing about the subject. Sorry it is so choppy, but I am reducing about 30 pages to 2 or 3. I will be back in a few days to discuss this with others and hopefully we will have some fun with it.

    Excerpts from early draft:

    “….there is only one Truth, one answer, from which everything else webs out. The center of an endless web from which everything is connected and each silken strand gives birth to the next. For we are all like tiny spiders that can only remember the last few strands that we have tread upon and foresee the next few strands in the distance before us. Much like the phrase: One who can not see the forest through the trees. Our memories, or lack of, are what bind us, but how can this be helped? Our memories are the means by which we create, both consciously and unconsciously, the concept of who we are and where we are going, of the world around us and of all our blindly excepted realities. Reality, how little the socially accepted concept of that word means to me now. My eyes have plunged beyond the brow of my cranium and lost themselves to a world in which eyes have no value. Of which our every day concept and ideas are based on the inept traditions of yesterday that refused to transcend itself.”

    “As with all journeys, the path is begun with a single step. It is this first step that allows one to feel comfortable enough with one’s own footing in order to precede to the next step and so on and so forth. However, one must always be cautious not to become obsessed with a single stepping stone and lose sight of the path. This path, that I make reference to, is the voyage to the understanding of our own existence at a fundamental level that goes beyond our existence. It is the yearning to answer the age old questions of: who am I, what am I, why am I here, where am I going and where have I been. The astonishing thing is that all of these inquires lead to the same single answer, but it is only when we follow these questions from start to finish and then back upon themselves, as if we were to weave a web strand by strand from the outer structure inward, that we can truly understand. Understand that One is the only real number.
    First I believe that it is necessary to differentiate between the Essence of a thing and its Existence. Essence is the absolute nature of all things which we incorrectly consider as separate because of our perceptions of time and space. In other words, essence can be described as the what “Is” or the ultimate notion of “Being“. In most belief systems essence is what is referred to, even though it is being seen through the distorted glasses of those taking refuse in existence, as God. It is unbound by our concepts of birth and death because Essence is beyond the confinements of Existence. Existence, on the other hand, is the separation of essence though conceptual form. It is similar to the idea of dividing the ocean by draining it into different sorts of containers. This is the realm in which we all live and believe is Ultimate Reality. In crude terms, your parents have given you existence, but you come from the essence which no form can bestow or revoke. You see, all things come from essence where as form or existence is merely a divisional extension created for the purpose of better understanding itself. By this I mean to imply that, essence is (although not conscious itself) the whole of pure consciousness or energy (one is ingrained within the other), but in order to comprehend itself it must divide itself through perceivable forms of existence. Since all systems require another system to gage themselves by, essence must invest itself in its own separation in order to comprehend itself in relevance to itself. At this point, this may seem like quite a paradoxical concept, but later on it will make much more sense.
    So it is through essence that we come into existence through the embryonic period or, in other words, are born into a realm of time and space through the accumulation of corporeal energy. It is through the creation of form that the “I” or “Ego-self” develops. The Ego-self is nothing more or less than a manipulatively functional comprehension of positive and negative responses obtained through past experiences as being in relevance to the benefit of the self. In other words, the Ego-self is much like the annihilazation of a tape recorder played backwards in time. After a very short time, the Ego-self becomes practically indistinguishable from the consciousness of the form which it inhabits and a vital truth is hidden (but that is to come much later). The Ego-self's purpose is to protect the individual's well being both physically and psychologically. In what society refers to as a well-adjusted person, the Ego-self accomplishes its goal quite well, but what is the price that we pay for this? It is the Ego-self that maims and kills, that harms others for its own advantages, and that wishes ill will against those who do not conform to its own pious beliefs; it never promotes another system outside of itself that does not directly or indirectly benefit the Ego-self. I am sure that you have heard of individuals performing "selfless" acts for the benefit of others. While this is seen by many as a noble action, it is not sought after on a universal level because we live in the world of the advancement of the Ego-self at all costs. This advancement that I speak of is based, world wide, on a zero point system. This zero point system is one in that if individual A succeeds (+1), he or she must do so through the failure of individual B (-1). So the realm of individual A and individual B is always zero ((+1)+(-1)=0). Just imagine how much progress we could make if we were to discard this system, if we were to work together instead of in competition with one another. Vaccines for illnesses, advanced medical procedures, new sources of fuel, extended life span, and countless other scientific and technological achievements all created in a fraction of the time. But it is the Ego-self that works towards its own self-gratification, that strives for the wealth and prestige of the discovery of the next great invention. This is the hindrance to our evolution that the Ego-self creates. It is the inability to remove the training wheels when we no longer need them.
    Do you see the dilemma yet? Besides the fact that a zero point system will never progress at any substantial rate, the Ego-self is finite. It has no point of transfer from within the confinement of complex corporeal structures. The Ego-self can not exist indefinitely in its reality because the same form that brings it into existence also hinders its ability to be transmigrational. In other words, when the body dies so does the Ego-self. You see the Ego-self is a byproduct of the interaction between mind and form, which in turn is an action of neurological processes (i.e. the mind is not a noun but instead the actions of an active brain). This is to say that the ego-self is not transferable down into a purer energy because the smallest level it can hope to achieve is that of a specific combination of molecular architecture, of the organic mortar, metal and wiring that is needed to construct an organism. I say organism because the brain can not complete its goal without the interfacing of other organs, fluids, bones, etc., such as those that make up the human body, in order to keep the brain active. It is here that the real problem makes itself know; only entropy can be achieved from this sort of system.
    There is one thing I feel that I must make perfectly clear: the Ego-self is NOT consciousness. The existence of the Ego-self is made possible only through form, consciousness is not. The Ego-self is like a parasite that strengthens the false ideas of the separate nature of essence through the creation of an “I“. It modifies the perceptional abilities of consciousness and form in order to further its own existence. What consciousness is we will come to after more stepping stones have been lain, but as I have shown it is only logical to conclude that the Ego-self is merely a single stone on the path and not an end unto itself. Just as a boat is needed to cross a river but afterwards simply becomes a hindrance to carry on your back, the Ego-self is something that should be discarded when its usefulness has been exhausted. However as all things are seen as “survival machines”, most believe that the Ego-self is the only way to propagate and so they buy into the myth of the perpetual existence of one’s separateness.
    Now I do now wish to express the idea that the Ego-self is useless; it provides a very important service. This service is the protection and security of the form that it inhabits. How else would the form survive during its childhood, but the Ego-self is only needed during a particular stage of life. It is like crawling before walking, in order to evolve we must stop one to start another. In other words, the sense of an “I” that the Ego-self generates in order to assist its growth is the same thing that holds itself to limitations of the “I”.“

    “The first step on the path to satori begins with the suspension of the Ego-self. It is only through this action that Freewill becomes a consciously possible decision. Now I can just imagine that someone, possibly many, will be offended by the insinuation that he or she does not have Freewill. However, what most consider to be Freewill is in fact not. You see, the Ego-self is nothing more then the desire for the preservation of a system that consists of little more than the accumulation of past experiences relevant to the individual form. At an early age, one develops habitual tendencies through the responses that he or she attains from specific behavior. These habits develop into what can be considered as an individual’s personality or base characteristics. If one performs a specific action biased upon habitual tendencies, this is not Freewill, but instead a deeply instilled conditioned response. Raise a lever; receive a pellet....or a shock. Many think that they are free, but that is the real illusion concerning Freewill. How often have you or someone else pointed out that you were displaying some sort of behavior that is typical performed by a parent or someone that you spend a great deal of time with? This is because when we are exposed to a recurring behavior performed by someone that we see as having greater power than ourselves (i.e. parents, adults, childhood heroes, etc), we unconsciously mimic that behavior in order to provide the Ego-self with more power to protect itself. The Ego-self continues to do this throughout its existence in order to propagate itself with everything from desirable traits to attract mates to profitable behavior within a business environment. The problem is that we have unconsciously conditioned ourselves by so many different sources (family, friends, environment, religion, government, education, etc.) and we don‘t even realize it.
    There is yet another way in which we tarnish any chance that we may have for Freewill. This can be seen when we believe that someone or something other than ourselves has control over us. We shall first discuss the invalidity of externally control over feelings and emotions. I am sure that we have all heard comments such as “he/she has hurt my feelings”, but how is it that an outside entity can have any control over something that is beyond its reach. Emotions are internalized processes that can not be forced by an external source. In other words, when a person feels something it is because on some level one wants to feel that way. We are our own victims without ever realizing it. We give other people control over us, we allow them to harm us. There are many reasons for this. When we are children it is quite difficult to differentiate truth from lies within any semi-rational boundaries. We merely believe what we are told because of “good faith”, because it is what we are expected to believe, and so we often fall into the trap of mistaking the perceptions of others as reality. Only you can define your worth because only you can create your worth. We are all capable of much more than we allow ourselves to realize. You must remember the power to control yourself is always yours. There are only two things in this life that are beyond the control of your presence in existence: the fact that that you were born and the fact that you will die. This is they way of form; the constant evolution of existence. True birth or death does not exist, only the Becoming. Existence is the Becoming. This is because Existence is a constant state of transition. Being is a solidified state that only takes up residence outside of time (Essence), where as Existence is the realm of the becoming of form.
    Most individuals reading this book will realize the truth in the concept we have just covered, but control over the self in an external sense seems to be a more difficult idea to grasp. One can not be physically forced to do the will of another.”

    “The only thing that an individual with Freewill knows that he or she must do is deal with the consequences of their actions. The consequences, that an action or reaction brings into being, have no hold on its origins because time moves forward and not backwards. In other words, the Ends only exist because of and after the Means have been performed and therefore do not have any control over the Means. Now do not mistake this purer structure with that of one involving a goal. A goal is a stipulation that one places on the action in order to achieve a desired outcome. Goals are merely illusions of thought because they do not exist in absolution. It may sound like I am contradicting myself, but you must remember that up to this point I have only discussed things in detail pertaining to Existence. Both the Ego-self and Freewill can manifest themselves within Existence, but they can not do so within Essence or what I call the Neo-Absolution because form and concept only exist within existence. These are concepts that I will come to much later.

    There is however a larger problem; we are not the only ones conditioning ourselves. We are conditioned by society through culture, religion and education for the purpose of continuing an established system. Whether the imposed conditioning of a system is conscious or unconscious varies through what individual is performing the conditioning. For instance, culture is an unconscious conditioner because it is based upon the acceptable norms in relation to traditional beliefs; this is a habitual behavior. The established religions, although they may have been based upon a longing for a purer truth during they’re conception, exist as a pious hierarchy where one individual can be seen as infinitely purer and as pertaining more value than another. This is a prime example of a system that possibly started or grew from a conscious conditioner, but was accepted with such unquestioned belief and faith, even by those in highly esteemed positions, that it has become an unconscious conditioner. The general education of a society is a bit more complex. Assuming that the information being taught is historically and universally correct (in the sense that it is not manipulated to comfort or farther the future of a particular society), the real factor is the educator’s objective. Sometimes one teaches only the knowledge that they want to be known, sometimes the knowledge of things that are both true and not true because they simply do not know any better and sometimes one teaches what they have sought out to be true. This is both a mixture of conscious and unconscious conditioning. The human mind has been conditioned to fit into a “peg & slot” game for the reason of perpetuating any number of belief systems.

    So should we condemn everyone and everything that may have conditioned our behavior, that may have caused us to be untrue to ourselves? No, of course we should not. What we need to understand is that most of these individuals or systems perpetuate their beliefs because they honestly believe that they are the truth. Neither the parental unit nor a particular culture nor any specific religion is the originator of the belief systems that we live with today. They are merely passing along the information that has been relayed to them by other sources. Like any rock dropped in a pond, each repercussion to the preceding action is similar, but slightly mutated. What it is that we must strive for in the search for Ultimate Truth is the first reverberation of a stone thrown into the pond. This is because, in our present state, we can never exist as the actual stone, but instead only comprehend a symbolic representation of the stone through its impact on existence. This first reverberation is what I have named the Original Echo.

    Now I am sure that there are individuals out there who believe that they have Freewill because they have fought against the system and its conditioning all their lives. This is not Freewill because the structural basis of this new system is nothing more or less than the exact opposite of the old one. The most glorious skyscraper constructed on a dilapidated foundation will not prosper. The individual that rebels or deviates from the norm is ostracized and penalized. This is how the system’s beliefs are enforced, by the fear of being powerless and rejected from its group mentality. A perfect example of this lies in Christianity with the figures of God (the system), Jesus (the rewarded follower of the system) and Lucifer (the punished individual rebelling against the system). Jesus and Lucifer are equally important to the system because they both enforce it. One as an example of the rewards bestowed upon those perpetuating the belief system and another that is used as an example of the punishments pertaining to the rejection of the system’s beliefs. The strange and interesting thing is that the system needs a certain small percentage of its mass to rebel from its structured beliefs because it instills a type of fear factor within the rest of the system’s population that helps to ensure their cooperation. These Jungian like archetypes of God, Jesus and Satan are extremely common in many belief systems.

    This however is merely the first part of the problem concerning the illusions of freewill. What it is that we have been discussing thus far in this chapter is Freewill in relationship to the past. Now it has come time to discuss it in relevance to the future. The future is set because it is being set every moment in the long progression of moments.”

    “The notion of the past and of the future are abstract concepts; they will never come or go because when they do they are no longer themselves. Only the here and now exists, the current moment. Never the less, the past and future are important because the Ego-self bases the current moment on them and vice versa.”

    “Now that I have shown how the typical human sense of Freewill is an illusion, I imagine that you are wondering how it is that this illusion can be broken. First and foremost, the illusion must be recognized for what it is, an untruth. One must discover their own conditioning and overcome it, to rethink their behaviors with a newborn mind. I know that this sounds impossible and for those that have become hopelessly dependent on the lies for a long period of time, perhaps it is, but I have know a few individuals that have transcended their own conditioning. It is possible when the will is strong enough. One must unlearn what they have already learned in order to find the path to becoming an Original Echo.”

    “What is reality? Over the entire history of Homosapien existence, the human mind has assimilated sensory information as symbols. I am not speaking merely of words and the sounds of language, but also of visual images (i.e. animate and inanimate objects). This corruption of perception warps Absolute Reality into what it is that we believe to be reality. You see, a symbolic representation of an object can never come close to the thing that you are attempting to comprehend. For instance, if someone were to hand you a photograph of a tree you would be able to identify the object as a tree, but this representation of a tree is not the tree. Now if you were standing in front of the same tree that was represented in the photo, you would be able to identify what stood before you as a tree, but it is still a symbolic representation of what you believe a tree is suppose to look like. You see this misinformation is not obtained through your actual senses, but through the conditioning of your mind in the way that it translates sensory data.

    So what is reality? Reality is the interactive accumulation of symbolic impressions as acquired through one’s senses and sociological conditioning. In other words, reality is only what we believe to be true because of our historical knowledge, present experience and culturally enforced sacred and secular dogmas. Perhaps the most extreme falsification of pure reality through such means (commonly known to date) is that of a time when it was believed that the Earth was flat or that the it was the center of the universe. At the time, those ideas were considered to be reality because they were what was accepted as true, but, as we can see today, they have no validity within our current sense of truth or reality.

    Now you may be wondering: Why is it that so many individuals of such diverse cultures and geographical locations cling to such similar concepts of reality? I believe that this question can best be answered by something which a zoologist named Richard Dawkins refers to as “Memes”. Memes can be explained as a sort of parasitic idea or concept that is transferred from mind to mind by way of language. Its reasoning behind migration is the same as genes, to spread itself out as a survival instinct. These memes or trends spread and become the norm by way of mass reproduction.

    As we have already seen that there are many truths but only one Absolute Truth that is free from the constrains of the Ego-self and sociological conditioning, the same goes for Absolute Reality...…”

    “If it has not widely become known at the time that you read this, then you must realize that energy is the only real substance existing within space and time. Everything is energy existing at different densities. Matter, containing mass, is energy. This paper, you, rocks, trees, water, air molecules and for that fact all things that exist within space are forms of energy. Both absolute truth and absolute reality will lead you to energy. This is the base of all things, the birth of all nations. Energy is the purest of all originals. Everything that your ego-self, perception and information conditioning systems has come to know as real in and for itself is actually energy falsely disguised.

    Absolute reality is not indirectly based on energy, but in fact is energy free of the misinterpretive perceptions of the ego-self. This is the only universal reality from which absolute truth stems.

    “Essence or what I can the Absolute is the actual stone dropped into a pond which creates Existence through the waves that are brought into form.

    The name that I give to the interaction and final result of all these participants is the Absolute. This is the understanding and merging of universal truth, universal reality and energy. The result is something that is not even possible to fully comprehend unless the stepping stones have first been tread upon. For the destination can never be reached without the journey.

    The Absolute is that you do not end or begin at your perceived physical or conscious self. You are as much me as I am you; we are merely disconnected by our perceptions of the “I” and of the “Other”. We are as much the rock as the rock is of the tree or of the air or of us. We are all, as is everything, energy disconnected by ego-perception. Forms only exist in the way that our minds perceive them. It is all One. If you wish to call this One god, you are wrong because that would be to place false ideas of morals, values and other stipulations on something pure. The One is not conscious, but instead the whole of consciousness that exists as nothing but itself. If you wish to call this One the void, then you are wrong. It is nether void or not void. The One is a strait line, no deviation from area A to area B, consisting of no more than a point.

    To walk the path, with ventilated eyes and hands unbound, is to be one with the One of all existence, to be existence.”

    Well, that it pretty much that. If you actually read that all you must really be interesting in the subject and I comment you! I think that more people should think about it more often. Well, what do you think on the matter……

  2. #2
    Registered SWAFMAN's Avatar
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    Aug 2001
    directly above the center of the Earth
    Jonna, you've obviously invested a great deal of intellectual effort into this thesis. Self-examination and contemplation of Universal Truth are the deepest wells into which one can peer, and seek the light of Understanding. Whether or not the Truth (your Absolute Reality) can ever be proved through scientific method, or even whether it is valuable or applicable to anyone but You is immaterial (no pun intended), as you implied - it's the journey that is ultimately at least as important as the destination.

    I agree with, and have even previously posted similar points on how others only have the power to hurt our feelings if we give them that power. I've tried (with success, I hope) to instill this idea in my children.

    In other aspects of my life, or the lives of my immediate family, when faced with a situation where certain outcomes are governed by forces largely out of my control, I try to focus on the things I can effect.

    So, what's it gonna be, folks? Are you gonna be in charge of your own happiness, or do you forfeit all control of your happiness & enjoyment....
    My feeling upon reading your post is that it sort of asks a question or poses a riddle, but does not offer an answer.

    In other words, it does explain your views on the difference between self-ego-driven / environmentally/culturally/socially-driven perceptions of reality and Absolute Reality, and you speak of a collective (for lack of a better term, on my part) wherein humanity transcends the bounds of self-ego-driven reality in favor of a purer Reality, but you don't discuss much about what this transcendent stage in the evolution of humanity would (or in your view should) be or do, other than the reference to all the advances that could come to pass if all the scientists worked together to solve medical or other challenges, rather than working in competition from and for their respective corporate or government employers.

    Do you imply or envision that by transcending our self-ego and achieving this state of Absolute Reality that we may, at some point in our evolution, discorporate into some sort of collective ecto-plasm? Or that something like that happens to us after the death of our corporeal selves and continues on, if we attain self-ego-less Absolute Reality?

    Jonna, I'm not hammering you on this at all! Just asking questions to help me understand your thesis.
    Last edited by SWAFMAN; 07-19-2002 at 10:29 PM.
    "We have enough youth. We need a fountain of SMART!"

  3. #3

    if you could clarify some things in your opening post, i would appreciate it.

    1. are you saying the common concept of "freewill" is false because our "choices" have consequences, thus they are not really "free". or society rejects those who deviate from the norm?

    2. are you saying reality is open to the individual's interpretation?

  4. #4
    impressive. i am deeply, deeply impressed. i was right, it is a lot like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence.

    i need a while to mentally digest this. after that, i will be back as well, with my thoughts on the matter, and the energy...

    i am always overwhelmingly delighted when someone shows that much thought, that much courage, and that much determination. thank you very much for sharing this. i am sure it was a hard decision to make, especially (if i am reading correctly) when it is not yet finished.
    Nachos are the right of all sentient beings.

    The guns... They've stopped!
    - Dan Akroyd, Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope

  5. #5
    Dar' Argol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Coming to you from the great beyond!
    *This post is not meant in any demeaning way*

    WHY do you guys do this to me???? After I think I can relax a bit from "explosive threads" another pops up. Not that I am saying that you should not post your opinions/thoughts/beleifs/etc. But you relize when a thread like this pops up, 9 times out of 10 it gets closed?? Then SirSteve gets flack from other sources saying that he cencors his forumites and won;t let them express themselves wich already fuels the fire?? I am not saying never start another thread but it get frustrating to have to page through novel sized posts to make sure everything is going ok and nothing is getting out of hand.

    Our jobs here as Mods are to keep the forums clean and organized. Not closing thread after thread!! That is not our point. I don't like doing it, regardless of what others might think, I HATE closing threads!! I feel liek Big Brother watching over you and killing anything that is not "all ages" for this site.

    So that being said, please continue, try to keep it clean and civil, and use good judgement. If you think your post will upset a forumite, then rethink/reword it a little better. Thanx and enjoy
    Dar' is no longer "Live in Orlando" . . . he may "Not be in Orlando" either . . .
    You're slower than a herd of turtles stampeding through peanut butter.

  6. #6
    Banned stillakid's Avatar
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    Aug 2001
    Los Angeles
    I made the mistake of reading this at the end of the day. I need a night's sleep to purge my cache before taking this on. See you in the morning!

  7. #7
    I think my brain just imploded trying to read your post Jonna. No offense, but I may need to sleep on it as well, before I can figure out exactly what your talking about. Intresting subject, if it's what I think it's about.

    MTFBWY and HH!!

    Jar Jar Binks

    AGENTS OF ATLAS - Returns in Early 2009.

  8. #8
    mabudonicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Protecting my secret identity
    Interesting,for sure. Thanks Jonna, fro sharing that. To keep the "heat" off of SSG (and to let DA sleep someday..) I'll make my comments in PMs, as the theory, while I agree with pretty much all of it, eludes me on ceratain points, mostly the ones SWAFMAN brought up.....
    Again, don't worry, DA, we'll keep it clean. I promise I will only watch this thread from this point on.
    Oh, and to lighten the mood a tad, a quote from an extremely inebrated buddy of mine, up on the soapbox clutching for the Truth "The policy of reality (say that with about 6 syllables, he was slurring but good) is that nobody gives a %$!@ about a DYING BABY SEAL!!!". I told him he had to go home after I finished laughing at him.....
    Something about him reminds me of my older brother, Rex.

  9. #9
    Some questions/observations:

    I don't buy that 2 is the justification for the number 1. 2 is only a number that explains more than one "1." It doesn't justify the existance, it only expands upon it. Orange doesn't explain the color Red. Without Orange (or 2) the color Red (or 1) doesn't cease to exist. Without 1 (Red), 2 (orange) or any number following cannot exist as it's founding base unit is false. 1 is the justification for "0" and vise versa. "0" alone doesn't stand for anything without it's polar opposite which would be 1. One cannot exist without the other.

    Now I understand that using the red/orange analogy alone doesn't explain what your point is (what about Yellow or Green) I only used it to explain the 1 vs 2 and 0 vs 1 existance. I guess it's similar to a basic logic circuit.

    I liked your Existance/Essence explaination but it gets too cluttered and loses track at the end. The addition of the Ego-Self doesn't seem to explain much beyond the original Existance/Essence point. I don't agree with the "zero point" world that the Ego-Self operates.

    The Ego-Self can't advance (+1) without the lose of another individual (-1) and because of that there is little or no advancement as well as no true selfless act. In order for this to work the conscience/subconscience would have to know of or calculated the loss of another individual in order to be acted upon. This would mean that the advance/loss could never be beyond the original individuals action whether it be +/-1.

    An example: Those individuals on flight 93 (I might be wrong on that number) who, in my opinion, performed a self-less act to stop the actions of the terrorists. That incident alone saw the loss of all the persons on board. Those Ego-Selfs could never have known the extent to which their actions would save lives even at the expense of their own. As we, or those on the flight, will never know what "could have been" it's hard to invest in this "zero point" world system. There will be and have always been losses and gains in individual Ego-Selfs that extend beyond the knowledge of the original person.

    Because of that I truly believe in selfless acts. Whether an act is perceived as a +1 or -1 is purly based on the viewpoint of those assigning judgement, not the individual/Ego-Self performing it.

    I also believe in a true Freewill and that it doesn't require the "enlightenment" of an individual to exist. If Freewill was only the mimicing of ones parents and other environmental influences then there would be no advancement or growth. For us to advance to this point it has required an evolution from the mimicing of previously held behaviors and beliefs at some point. Advancing from ground zero to this point something must have created the emotion of Love (the relationship kind) and I find it hard to believe that it would have been the result of a previous experience. At some point there wasn't that "previous experience."

    I also hold true that the Ends are always present with or without the Means. You've stated that the Ends are culmination of the Means. Whether we are aware of the Ends or not, they are still present prior to the Means. Laws are in place that outline the actions/reactions of all physical objects and that can't be altered no matter what the Means. I understand that you're saying that time travels in a straight line and that the Ends are connected to the Means. Therefore you say the Ends therefore don't exist without the Means as they are connected in a straight line through time. Again, because time travels in a straight line the Ends were always inevitable whether or not we can see them from the present.

    To me this doesn't justify the arguement that we have no Freewill. From the present the Ends are not 100% and we'll never have the technology to know them completely. Not until the Means are complete do we fully see the Ends. It's not fair to look back in time, see the straight line from the Means to the Ends, and argue that one had no other choice than to follow that path.

    Freewill is not a judgment of the past but an exploration of the future. It's an unknown future as we will never have 100% anticipation of the Ends. Therefore no past influence, parents or whatever, can be totally responsible for our current or future actions as we are constantly expanding into an unknown future.

    I'll just leave it at that for now.

  10. #10
    I'm like Jar Jar, my brain has imploded and is currently oozing out my ear after reading that.

    Although the point rasied on the correllation of 1 and 2 does remind me of a discussion my girlfriend and I had as she explained to me the theory of the sound of one hand clapping.

    My brain imploded then too.
    [font=verdana]Madness take its toll. Please have exact change[/font]
    [font=verdana]Life's short and hard like a bodybuilding elf... - Blood Hound Gang [/font]
    I'm a trendy tote bag!


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