Debating Episode III facts.....!?

[Jaff]

I was reading some of the conjecture spoilers and some of the stuff ignored some of the things that were allready stated in films. Episode IV Ben says of Owen: "He thought he should stay here and not gotten involved. He thought you'd follow Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade LIKE your father DID." That means that:

Anakin is on Tatooine at the start of Episode III (opinion). Ben comes back for Anakin and asks for help. Owen is very annoyed and aggitated by this because the Jedi were responsible for taking anakin away from his mother and now their taking Anakin away from his wife. To Owen Anakin has been tortured enough by the political Jedi's. So Anakin leaves his wife behind never to see his kids again.

And don't forget that nobody knows what the death star is in Episode IV. If it was killing planets in the galaxy before IV than everyone would know what it is. Even Tarkin expresses that the station is new. So it will not be completed until the end of III.

[Beast]

Obi-Wan loves to twist the facts around though, stating things from his "certain point of view" when he was talking to Luke in ANH. Those comments could be referring to the fact that Anakin ever left Tatooine in the first place. Or to Anakin leaving in E2 to go rescue Obi-Wan, and loosing his arm.

Especially since had Anakin never left, his mother probably would have still been alive. We know that Anakin is probably going to blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mother's death. Given Owen's attitude twords Obi-Wan in ANH, he could also blame him for his step-mother's death as well.

As for the Death Star, it likely won't even be completed in EIII. There is 18 years between EIII and EIV, so the building and completion of the station could occur between films. After all, the building of the second one only took about 4 years to near completion. Palpatine would likely wait until after he's declared himself Emperor, before he started construction. Since the first one is a prototype, it would have likely taken twice as much time to build.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Jaff]

I'm going to debate that because Owen is very hostile towards Ben trying to hide who he is. Ben has all the answers, but Owen doesn't want luke to know. Obviously Ben is to be the blame of all of Owen/Anakin's relationship, and the death of his mother. And owen said that Anakin flew a spice freighter. Somewhere Owen and Anakin will debate his involvement in the clone wars per the suggestions in Ep IV. Owen knows that Anakin is Darth Vader, and is a traitor of such. To have ben hiding around a corner watching over luke is a remainder of that shame. Hence Ben will remain the outsider most likely out of guilt. Besides a pregnant padme cannot hide that she is married to a jedi, nor could Anakin be a jedi because yoda and his political council would see right through him. It's possible that Anakin could not be on tatooine, but I highly doubt that. In II Anakin said life is simpler if your fixing things. He longs for a simpler life, it's a classic foreshadow. He will leave the order for that simple life, padme will go with him. They will seperate. Someone will suggest something happened to padme, hence anakin will think his unborn children are dead until the end of episode IV. Anakin will then blame the Jedi, palpatine will coax him on in encouragement and manipulation. Jedi will run for cover. Anakin fights obi-wan. Anakin looses. Anakin is Darth Vader. Padme thinks anakin dead. Yoda is smuggled to Dagobah. Padme goes with Bail organa to Alderan. The real question is what about the droids and how does the twins get seperated. Ben goes into hiding into the one place anakin doesnt want to return. The planet where his mother died, and his simple life was lost. Of course this is all my conjecture, so challenge me guys. Add to it or chew it up, cause I really love talking shop.

[Beast]

Good points, but a few comments. Owen is hostile, because he blames Obi-Wan for everything that happened. Owen lied to Luke, telling him that Anakin that was a navigator on a spice freighter, but we know that thats a lie. He's a Jedi, which is somthing that Owen has kept from Luke. Probably because he didn't want to fill Luke's head with tales of excitement, and make him want to leave Tatooine and look for adventure.

Note also that Anakin doesn't like Tatooine. His comments to Padme on Naboo, show his distaste for the planet. Of course, the loss of his mother may change his mind on that. But it's more likely that they could be on Naboo. They could wind up on Tatooine, for the above reasons.

Anakin will most likely have no knowledge of Padme's pregnancy, she probably will keep it from him so that he's not worried. If he does know, he'll only think there is one child. From the dialogue in the OT, it sounds like the only ones that will know are Obi-Wan, Yoda, Owen, Beru, and likely Palpatine.

Remeber what Obi-Wan says on Dagobah in ROTJ. "The Emperor knew as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, that they would be a threat to him. That is why your sister remains safely anonamous." So it seems like it's possible that Vader did know, and actually allowed Obi-Wan to live and Owen and Beru to raise Luke. It would follow that Owen would want to make sure that Luke never wanted to leave Tatooine.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Jaff]

True true, but Anakin is full of personal conflicts. I want to be a jedi, I love padme. I am angry, I am better than this. Thus I think he will go for tatooine out of guilt for leaving it in the first place. I think your right on when you say he'll be on naboo, after all that too could be a foreshadow when he spoke about how much he likes it there.

As for the emperor knowing that the kids are alive I doubt. If you watch all the star wars films Vader looks up to palpatine as a father, and palpatine uses this. Vader trusts him, and I don't believe despite popular opinion that vader turns to save his son. Throughout all the films vader hunts down luke, and after luke refuses his father to join him vader stands there confused watching his son fall. Then he no doubt reports to his emperor, who hates the jedi as much as Vader does. To vader Luke is likened to a confused boy who serves the jedi who destroyed his life, and palpatine more than likely gets popular support later by blaming the seperatist problems on the jedi who did not see the crisis. As yoda says they have many enemies. Obviouslly palpatine is naysaying jedi secretly as he did with valorum. So after Luke leaves Jabba he goes to vader. Luke tries to turn vader and vader says (not quoting): Damn boy you really are confused, lets go see palpatine and straighten you out. Luke arrives, vader protects his emperor from this confused boy, and in the end luke attacks anakin hatefully. Obviously Vader is not pleased at his sons attitude. So vader gets up listening to his son say he's not going to be like his old man after palpatine says: Fulfil your destiny and take your fathers place at my side! It takes a little bit for this to register in Vader. He looks back and forth trying to make sense of palpatines words. Then it comes to him: Crap! That son of a ***** wanted my kid to kill me. He was using me all along. My life is a lie. The rest is history. This loving bond between vader and his emperor is the only thing that keeps vader in check until the end of episode VI. The emperor would have killed luke if he knew he was alive to keep vaders loyalties in check.

Something severe has to turn anakin. The death of padme seems to be good, but Lucas is a dramatist, so Anakin will most likely know she is pregnant. After all killing all the jedi you once dreamed of joining with would not be easy without a driving hatred. Killing my mom, children, and wife would be it with ease.

[Jedi Clint]

Anakin's decent into darkness increases in pace dramatically after his former friend, master, and father figure puts him in a walking iron lung. Palpatine holds the only key the mutilated and broken Skywalker has to any chance of revenge against Kenobi as well as access to power greater than any he has possessed before.

Anakin Skywalker will NOT sit out the Clone Wars. They started at the end of AOTC, and they will end at the beginning of E3.

Anakin, "We could keep it a secret."
Padme, "We'd be living a lie. I couldn't do that. Could you Anakin?"
Anakin, "No. You're right. It would destroy us."

Keeping their secret will destroy their relationship and their lives. Padme can't be seen pregnant in the political arena without someone finding out who the father is (which would put an end to her career whether she wanted it to or not). It is at that point that she will exit politics even though a great turning point in the Republic is coming.

Anakin will fight for his Chancellor and the Republic during the clone wars. And when he has time, he will see his wife. She will never have the opportunity to tell him that she is pregnant. He won't return to her for many months before the battle that ends the wars.

The events that lead Obi Wan to duel with Anakin will be directly related to Palpatine's manipulation on a galactic level and who decides what side of the line they want to be on. Yoda, Obi Wan, the rest of the Jedi, Bail Organa, Padme and a few others will choose to rebel against Palpatine as they know him for what he really is, but not Anakin.

Obi Wan's discussion with Luke in ANH was laced with motivational comments by the elder Jedi. He needed Luke to go with him and leave the homestead behind. He worked on Luke's rebellious feelings toward his Uncle's expectations in order to accomplish this goal.

[stillakid]

Originally posted by JarJarBinks
Obi-Wan loves to twist the facts around though, stating things from his "certain point of view" when he was talking to Luke in ANH.

Just when did this ever happen except for his initial discussion with Luke? What qualifies the statement that "Obi Wan loves to twist the facts around..."?

In fact, he didn't twist any facts. He believed the personality of Anakin to be truly dead and that's what he told Luke. Where's the lie?

[gtrain29]

Yeah, I've never bought into the whole "obi-wan is a big liar" thing either. I think the reason he told luke the certain point of view story was because he had convinced himself of that over the years as a hermit. Think of the guilt associated with losing the most promising and powerful jedi to the dark side. He eventually had to believe that anakin was lost due to the persona of vader -- not b/c of obi-wan's own shortcomings of being to young and inexperienced to train an aprentice.

I also think anakin had to know padme was pregnant or else he would never have believed luke was his son. besides, the shock of believing her killed and blaming it on the jedi -- mainly obi-wan -- would really help his conversion to the dark side.

finally, I don't know if it has been mentioned that yoda is the only one who knows about leia. obi-wan is completely clueless when he says "that boy was our last hope." I think yoda is the only one present at the birth. he gives luke to obi-wan to deliver to tatooine without him ever knowing about leia.

[mini-rock]

OK I have a question for your queation gtrain. Do we know for a fact that Yoda was reffering to Leia when he made that comment to Obi-Wan?

[Jaff]

"no there is another!" Says yoda. The answer to that is VADER. Yoda knows he is old and dying. There is no way he has time left to train Leia to be a jedi. Therefore it's up to luke to carry on. The hope is that Vader will see the light and destroy his emperor.

As far as obi-wan being a liar the truth is that he like the rest of the jedi of the republic are nothing more than enlightened politicians. "The sith has been gone for a millenium." That's why qui gon shows impatience towards them. Even yoda plays with qui-gons words in episode I. They serve the senate and their politics. Qui gon does not hold with their ideas and that is why obi-wan and him are always butting heads. Ben was initially trained by yoda, thus he always tries to talk his way out of everything. He debates with Nass in gunga much to qui-gons annoyance, just watch his face when obi-wan starts talking. Qui gon tries to teach ben to stop thinking like a politician and start trusting life by letting it happen. Qui gon is trying to say "we here to make the galaxy better, not to run it or judge it." Ben is a perfect example of the jedi politics. That is why he does politically bend the truth, and that is why Anakin and his relationship is allready stressed. The first lesson anakin had as a jedi was from qui-gon. "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." Obi-wan has been trying to beat that out of Anakin ever since. Anakin has no love for politics, and feels like an outsider from the jedi because of this. I'm not saying that ben is a liar, nor all the other jedi, but they all are manipulative and are sitting on a high pedestal. They may be wise, but their station is getting to their heads, and that arrogance will be their downfall. To quote yoda: "A flaw more and more common, even in the older and wisest of the jedi". The answer is: Qui gon was right - we are arrogant, and we have many enemies because of it.