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  1. #1

    "You're Ruining My Movie!" -or- the ESB that almost was

    Someone sent me an exerpt from the book "Empire Building" that seemed interesting. Lucas was very hands-off with ESB and rarely visited the production, but in this instance he did...

    From chapter 10 "You're Ruining My Movie!"

    "Paul had put together a rough assembly and it was pretty slow. George didn't like it at all," said [ANH and ESB producer Gary Kurtz]. Lucas didn't appreciate the effect the more intimate moments between Han and Leia, in particular, had on the movie's pace. "George didn't like the mushy stuff. He thought it slowed the action down," said Kurtz.
    Lucas took control of the editing suite and locked himself away for two days. The clear implication was that "Supereditor" was going to save the day. When he emerged, the producer, director and editor were horrified at what he had done to the film.
    "It was awful," laughed Kurtz. "It was chopped into tiny pieces and everything was fast."
    When the trio objected violently Lucas merely became more agitated. "I'm on the hook for the money," he told them.
    "He tried to pull a power number basically," said Kurtz.
    Eventually it was [ANH and ESB editor Paul Hirsch] who talked Lucas round. When his nerves had calmed, he admitted his anger had been directed at himself as much as his team whose dedication he could not doubt. "In the end he finally realized the whole thing needed to be finessed," said Kurtz. "I think he was overwhelmed by events at the time."
    Far from being a disaster, Empire was clearly shaping itself into something rather special. Days after his outburst, Lucas had admitted to the director and producer that the film was "coming together beautifully." [ESB director Irvin Kershner's] eye for detail and attention to the actors combined with [ESB cinemtographer Peter Suschitzky's] camera work, particularly in the ethereal blue of the Dagobah sequences, had lent the film its own distinct and likeable personality. "Kersh was maddening at times. He was a bit slow, but I think in the end it paid off. I have a great admiration for him," said Kurtz.
    There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB, obviously most was not used and probably will never see the light of day again -- if it even exists at all. But I wonder what happened to Lucas' edit of the film, did they destroy it or is it in some vault somewhere? This excerpt speaks of the great teamwork that went into making the film, and certainly these people weren't the only ones involved with making the first 2 Star Wars films.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  2. #2
    So what you're saying is ATOC and TPM aren't all that great because no one stood up to Lucas?
    Yo momma. That's right, I said "yo momma".

  3. #3
    That many hours of footage is far from unheard of on a major motion picture. I've heard of many many with more. Alternate takes, Deleted scenes, Flubbed Takes, and the like adds up quickly. And yeah Rogue II, basically that's what he's trying to say. Of course that's only his own personal opinion. Of course, at the time of Empire's release, there were quite a few reviews that sound as bad as many reveiews for the prequels.

    MTFBWY and HH!!

    Jar Jar Binks
    THE SPY. THE SPACEMAN. THE GODDESS. THE ROBOT. THE GORILLA.

    AGENTS OF ATLAS - Returns in Early 2009.

  4. #4
    I've never heard of a "good" critic's review of a Star Wars film. If I were a critic, I would probably get chased out of town because I try to find the "good" in any movie. Unless it's based on "factual events", I usually just watch movies for pure entertainment. As much as I like House of 1000 Corpses, I still found faults in it, but I watched it as a person sitting down for and hour and a half, trying to forget about the daily hussle and bussle. Not as a reviewer, there to point out plot holes or bad dialogue.
    My opinion on critics is, that they purposely write bad reviews about movies to make themsleves look "above" the average movie goer. If they wrote honest reviews about whether they were entertained, laughed, cried, got p***ed off, whatever, people might be more apt to trust their opinions....but that's just my opinion

    Sorry for the rant.
    Shop at the SOFA-KING Big Sofa Store

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  5. #5

    Re: "You're Ruining My Movie!" -or- the ESB that almost was

    Originally posted by JediTricks
    There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB,
    Wow! Really? Where'd that bit of info come from? Not that I'm questioning it's validity, but just that now I'm jazzed to see some of this other footage!

  6. #6
    Originally posted by RooJay
    (in reference to 60 hours of unused ESB footage)
    Wow! Really? Where'd that bit of info come from? Not that I'm questioning it's validity, but just that now I'm jazzed to see some of this other footage!
    It's from the same book, the person who sent me the excerpt mentioned that first - that's how the discsussion about this alternate ESB came up and why he sent me the the page that I posted above (he sent it as a scan, I retyped it and added the name clarifications in brackets).

    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    That many hours of footage is far from unheard of on a major motion picture.
    Yeah, that's what I told the person who sent me the excerpt. But still, that's over 2 days of Star Wars we haven't seen.

    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    And yeah Rogue II, basically that's what he's trying to say.
    Don't tell people what I'm "basically" trying to say - my words speak for themselves. As to what Rogue asked, "So what you're saying is ATOC and TPM aren't all that great because no one stood up to Lucas?" While I've mentioned that opinion before on the forums, that's not what this thread is saying, if it were I would have posted it in the Ep 1 or Ep 2 section. You can infer whatever you like from the text, but the points I'm implying here (an implication is on the part of the author, an inference is on the part of the reader) is that there may be a different version of ESB out there, and secondarily that it took more than just 1 person to make ESB the great film that it is.


    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    there were quite a few [ESB] reviews that sound as bad as many reveiews for the prequels.
    Yeah, but how many of those bad reviews came from George Lucas himself???
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  7. #7
    So basically that is what you were trying to say, judging from the mentions of that opinion that is littered thru the forums by yourself. It's called deductive reasoning, indicated by the wealth of evidence. It's an opinion based upon the facts that are easily found in searching your past posts.

    Maybe if your thread wasn't filled with veiled prequel slams, people wouldn't have to comment on what you were basically trying to say. Just like almost everytime you mention the OT, there is typically a veiled remark twords the prequels. It doesn't take a whole lot of searching to see it.

    And since the majority of the thread talks about ESB, you had to place it here in the CT section, or it would have been moved. But it still has bearing on your opinion of the PT, just from how you worded it. Or is my opinion on your opinion,not appreciated in your thread? If so, please delete my posts, Mr Tricks.

    MTFBWY and HH!!

    Jar Jar Binks
    Last edited by Beast; 05-05-2003 at 10:07 PM.
    THE SPY. THE SPACEMAN. THE GODDESS. THE ROBOT. THE GORILLA.

    AGENTS OF ATLAS - Returns in Early 2009.

  8. #8
    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    So basically that is what you were trying to say, judging from the mentions of that opinion that is littered thru the forums by yourself. It's called deductive reasoning, indicated by the wealth of evidence. It's an opinion based upon the facts that are easily found in searching your past posts.
    Apparently, reading a post is no longer fundamental to commenting on it for jarjarbinks. Deduct all you want, but ultimately you are making the wrong inference and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take some false voice of authority in telling others what MY words mean. In fact, you can apply that to every single forum user here - I don't want to see you TELLING people what others are trying to say when you are only making an INFERENCE, you're not in their heads so don't go acting like you are.

    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    Maybe if your thread wasn't filled with veiled prequel slams, people wouldn't have to comment on what you were basically trying to say.
    Pray tell, where in the opening post do I imply anything - veiled or not - about the prequels? The answer is nowhere because that was never my IMPLICATION, only your INFERENCE. Let's analyze what I wrote in this post and maybe we'll be able to get to the bottom of this:
    • "You're Ruining My Movie!" -or- the ESB that almost was (Don't see anything about the prequels in the title)
    • Someone sent me an exerpt from the book "Empire Building" that seemed interesting. Lucas was very hands-off with ESB and rarely visited the production, but in this instance he did... (Hmm, nothing veiled about the prequels here)
    • There were over 60 hours of footage for ESB, obviously most was not used and probably will never see the light of day again -- if it even exists at all. (Very specifically NOT about the prequels)
    • But I wonder what happened to Lucas' edit of the film, did they destroy it or is it in some vault somewhere? (Maybe you were confused as to which film I was mentioning here. Otherwise, I don't see how this could tie into the prequels)
    • This excerpt speaks of the great teamwork that went into making the film, and certainly these people weren't the only ones involved with making the first 2 Star Wars films. (Well, maybe you were confused about which "first 2 Star Wars films" I was referring to - it was ANH and ESB - but other than that, I only see my words applauding those who made ANH and ESB)


    Originally posted by JarJarBinks
    And since the majority of the thread talks about ESB, you had to place it here in the CT section, or it would have been moved. Or is my opinion on your opinion,not appreciated in your thread? If so, please delete my posts, Mr Tricks.
    So it appears based on your INCORRECT inferences where you ASSUME what was in my head when I wrote this thread (or whenever I post about the OT apparently, according to your most recent edit), you're now attacking my character - that is rude and uncalled for. You can have an opinion about what you infer from my posts and even my previously-stated opinions, but when you go around stating as fact what my intentions are, that crosses the line.

    You can discuss the issue at hand or you can leave, but no more of this off-topic argument in here - if you feel compelled to tell me something else about this, do it in PM or email.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  9. #9
    Just playing devils advocate here...but the 1st assumption was made by Rouge II (not pointing fingers here). I read it as a jab at the PT, but nothing more than a joke really. JJB merely ran with it. To get all bent out of shape here with each other seems a tad overboard.

    Then again, maybe I'll just shut up.....
    Shop at the SOFA-KING Big Sofa Store

    Where the sofas are SOFA-KING big!

  10. #10
    Man, i do remember when this post was about ESB and not a bickering contest between you two crazy kids. Funny, i have to be the big guy and ask, "Hey, could this get back on Topic?"
    Odd, i don't even see the word "Moderator" under my name.

    Anyway, moving ON, this is truly wacked out news. However, i do think that the comment, "I'm on the hook for the money" seems a bit wacky, even for Lucas. Interesting find though! Gracias JT!
    "Woke up at 9.55am. Soon as I woke up, I looked at Suzanne and she looked at me. I said, 'Did I tell you about the immune system?' Suzanne starting laughing, I said, 'it's amazing.' She said, 'Not now.'"

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