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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Matrix Series ***Possible Spoilers***

    I’m not sure if any of this should be considered spoilers as the movie is already out, but I thought that I should be considerate as there are surely some that have not seen it yet. I leave it to the moderator’s disgression as to merge it with another Matrix thread. I broke down, dealt with the crowds and saw the movie last night and have some comments, possible reasoning and inquiries concerning the movie Reloaded and the series in general. As everything is connected to everything else , some of these thoughts might be a bit jumbled.

    1. The most important question would be what exactly happened at the moment when Neo stopped the sentinels in, what Morpheus called, the “desert of the real”?

    One explanation is that the ‘real’ world is just another matrix outside of the matrix. So why? Since a major running theme is that of choices and the illusion that our choices are free, this second matrix could be another illusion of the freedom of choice. By this I mean to say that, there are those that choose, when the ability to choose is known, to live in the computer world of the matrix or to choose to live in the “desert of the real”, but what if the ‘real’ world is not really real at all and just another illusion to allow the individual to believe that they are making a free choice? Again, why would the computers do this? Well, it is stated time and time again that humans rejected the “programming to describe their perfect world and whole crops were lost” and that “humans define themselves through misery” and the idea that they can choose. Crops? Yes, the energy source for the machines; humans in tanks giving off heat to be converted as usable energy. So this matrix inside a matrix would be the illusion to make choices to an even further extent. Even though I am not partial to this idea the reasoning makes sense.

    The opposite side of the coin, and much more interesting, is that the “desert of the real” is the real world. Which opens one hell of a big can of worms. How can Neo produce an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) or any other super human ability outside of the computer program? Perhaps this is a commentary on how the computer-generated world of the matrix is not that dissimilar to the world that we believe in. Perhaps Neo can change things in the real world because he is no longer confined by the boundaries of what he believes he can and cannot do. This is a running theme in Buddhism, specifically Taoism, or you could just research the allegory of the Cave in Plato’s Republic. I could go into this in great detail, but it is not my intention to insert my personal philosophy into this discussion so I wont. I am merely interested in what the writers are trying to convey.

    With this last possibility, there is an interesting idea that came to me. Remember when Tank, or was it Dozer, was feeding Neo fighting programs in the first movie and stated something to the effect of “he’s (Neo) been at it 10 hours straight. He’s a machine”. Well, what if he is? Agent Smith is a machine and he was able to come over the ‘real’ world. Which brings me to another idea. It is insinuated that ‘Real’ Smith triggered an EMP that disabled the ships that he was with and the sentinels slaughtered them all. Since Neo and ‘Real’ Smith are both in comas at the end of the film and Neo produced an EMP by himself. It would be fairly save to assume that Smith might have triggered the pulse without the use of the device in the ship. This leads to a lot more questions that I will get into later.

    2. Who are the 6 other messiahs that the Architect spoke of and are they still around?

    I think that one could be the snotty French guy. He seems like he buys into all of the Architect’s ideas and is now just another toady; he also seems to have a lot of toadies of his own that are old models. His girlfriend is the one that lead me to believe this though as she stated that he used to be just like Neo.

    How about chancellor Hamman or others of the council? Could they be some of the last ‘new recruits’ (those said to rebuild Zion) from the last time that the Matrix was ‘Reloaded’ by the choice of the last Neo like character? Hamman did seem to insinuate that the machines and humans almost ‘needed’ one another to survive as if he was trying to set Neo up for something in the future or even a possible solution to the power struggle.

    Two other ideas that I have not given much thought, but that I have heard are Agent Smith and the Architect himself. Smith did mention that he wanted what Neo wanted and he does seem to be able to do similar things that Neo can do. As for the Architect, I don’t think that I buy it, but I’d love to hear other’s ideas.


    3. Symbolic characters.

    Since I can’t really go into religion here, it is a bit difficult to talk about this. But there is a definite God/Devil/Messiah theme going on with the Architect (God), Neo (Messiah), and the Oracle (Devil). But you can’t think about it in a Good/Evil way. Think about it more as the ability to choose as in the story of the apple of knowledge and the Garden of Eden. Please do not talk about this in specific religious terms as the thread will get closed, but I am really interested to know if anyone knows how the Key maker fits into this symbolic structure.

    Note to Mod: If this section of my post is too much in the discussing religion category, please delete section 3 of my post only. I only mean to talk about this as character profile types.

    Your friendly neighborhood movie moderator here. You can discuss these religious themes and how they are portrayed in the Matrix, that is all right to do. Just don't discuss it as religion alone, make sure it's related to the movie somehow, like Jonna's done with his observation/analysis. Anyone who feels like testing this, please think otherwise, as your post will be deleted and you will be reported. Ok, back to Jonna.

    4. What exactly is the Architect and why create someone like Neo in the first place?

    Even though I have only seen the film once, I would have to say that the Architect is indeed what he seems to be: the Go….err…head honcho figure or Father computer making sure that he raises his children in the way that he wants them to evolve and in doing so evolve himself. So why create a messiah character like Neo and the other six that are led to believe that they have the possibility of destroying the Architect? This is for the reason that I have already stated: for his, the computer’s, own evolution and perfection of the matrix to better control humans. However, another interesting idea goes back to my statement of Neo being a machine, human or human machine as is ‘Real World’ Smith. This would win the battle for the machines, as they would destroy humanity by infesting the bodies of humans and killing the human mind. Neo’s existence could be because the Architect had this evolution in mind the entire time. Or could Neo, even though he may be a computer himself, find a way to destroy the computers and the Architect? We’ll just have to wait and see.



    I am getting tired, but I want to pose two more questions/ideas. Has anyone noticed that in both movies all of the screen shots inside of the ‘known’ matrix have a green tint and all of the screen shots outside of it have a blue tint? It’s true, but I haven’t a solid enough theory to mention. Also the 3rd movie is called Revolutions, is this referring to the cyclic pattern of the Neo like character in the matrix?
    Last edited by James Boba Fettfield; 05-16-2003 at 06:11 PM.
    This announcement has been brought to you by a generous grant from the Ranting Jonna Foundation
    "Helping to improve your life through nonsensical ravings for over 35 years"


  2. #2
    Wow, I read the whole thing and I cannot comment on everything now, but you make a lot of sense.

    Here is what I think.

    Though the idea that the other 6 "Massiahs" are still around and floating in the matrix is cool, I don't think that is what he ment. I think the other six are long dead. If this is the Matrix 6.0 than the others would have been disgarded. So, they are dead and the Matrix Neo knows is a whole new one. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I took it. Though your idea is very cool and would be good in the movie.

    The Archatect said that the current Matrix worked 99% of the time. Meaning that 1% of the people would reject the program. Thus, accounting for individuals like Neo and Morpheus. He said this 99% succes rate was created by the Orecal, and that it was better than anything he could come up with. He said it was necessary but only becasue a perfect Matrix did and wouldn't work. So, 99% isn't bad. Remeber that the 1% haven't ever been a problem and they've failed 6 times.

    Interesting idea that Neo is a program too. Perhaps that's true. I thought too, that the "real world" was just another Martix. That too is a strong possibility. I had visions of the end of Revolutions being a bit of a bumber. What I mean is the story is completed the war is over and Neo saves the day. Happy ending and all that jazz. Just to find out that the whole story was just another dream and Neo and the gang are still locked in living coffens producing BTU's. Perhaps this would put a bad taste in fans mouths, but it sure would blow your mind.

    Only 5 months until we find out I guess .
    If you want to find it you have to shop.

  3. #3
    Originally posted by icatch9
    Though the idea that the other 6 "Massiahs" are still around and floating in the matrix is cool, I don't think that is what he ment. I think the other six are long dead. If this is the Matrix 6.0 than the others would have been disgarded. So, they are dead and the Matrix Neo knows is a whole new one. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the way I took it. Though your idea is very cool and would be good in the movie.

    I am just going on the vague memory that the Architect stated something about Neo being reinstated into the matrix, but like I said I only saw it once and it was alot of info to take in. It seemed an interesting idea that the Architect would be using the messiahs to actually work against their own ideologies and then make them monkey butt slaves after the messiahs realized that they they really did not have 'free' freewill. The messiahs would then submit to save the human race and then help the Architect to improve the matrix because they felt that they didn't have a choice. This idea was based mostly on the Architect's speech and that annoying french guy. But perhapse it's just me.
    This announcement has been brought to you by a generous grant from the Ranting Jonna Foundation
    "Helping to improve your life through nonsensical ravings for over 35 years"


  4. #4
    The post is fine with me. I'll leave this topic by itself, so if you guys want to discuss the Matrix stuff into detail, then that's what this will be here for. Not so much reviews, but more of the themes and stuff like you started.....I think that's what you're trying to do with this thread.
    Back and more bearded than ever before

  5. #5
    Registered Eternal Padawan's Avatar
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    Here's a major spoiler: After the credits roll on the third film, it's going to cut back to a psyche ward and the camera dollies up to a window into a rubber room, where we see Mr. Anderson in a strait jacket screaming "I'm the one! I'm the ONE!"

    So the whole thing was in his head. SUCKERS!
    Who's a sexy kitty? Who is? Yes, you are. You're a SEXY kitty...

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  6. #6

    Thumbs up Fabulous thought-slingin's you've provoked, goj

    see, this is why i love criticism; whether it arrives at satisfactory answers or not it sure is a lively ride, takin you deeper into whatever art you dig what fine contributions you'd make to the Hump, so hope 2 see u there sometime
    i look forward to baggin this tome for a song- which, if you're familiar with my hunt metier & xploits, you already know is imo the Only way to bag
    vt

  7. #7

    Re: Matrix Series ***Possible Spoilers***

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna
    [B]

    the architect describes his failure to perfect the amount of acceptance (100%) and that a type of failsafe was included to take care of the 1% that reject the programming - i.e. morpheus, trinity, neo... anyone that feels that the world around them isn't quite right.

    the oracle (an "intuitive program") was developed to take care of this 1% (or so i gather...)

    Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

    1. The most important question would be what exactly happened at the moment when Neo stopped the sentinels in, what Morpheus called, the “desert of the real”?

    One explanation is that the ‘real’ world is just another matrix outside of the matrix. So why? Since a major running theme is that of choices and the illusion that our choices are free, this second matrix could be another illusion of the freedom of choice. By this I mean to say that, there are those that choose, when the ability to choose is known, to live in the computer world of the matrix or to choose to live in the “desert of the real”, but what if the ‘real’ world is not really real at all and just another illusion to allow the individual to believe that they are making a free choice? Again, why would the computers do this? Well, it is stated time and time again that humans rejected the “programming to describe their perfect world and whole crops were lost” and that “humans define themselves through misery” and the idea that they can choose. Crops? Yes, the energy source for the machines; humans in tanks giving off heat to be converted as usable energy. So this matrix inside a matrix would be the illusion to make choices to an even further extent. Even though I am not partial to this idea the reasoning makes sense.
    this way, the architect created the matrix, and the oracle created the "desert of the real." this is interesting, because the architect, as a cold unfeeling character presence makes us dislike him, yet the oracle with her "grandma" charm makes us feel good about her. however, our feelings are flipped from what they really should be, as the oracle is completely deceitful, down to the line "... you've made a believer out of me." taken in this light, the line is almost insulting! to paraphrase another incredible movie, the best trick the devil ever pulled was making you think he was the good guy...


    Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

    The opposite side of the coin, and much more interesting, is that the “desert of the real” is the real world. Which opens one hell of a big can of worms. How can Neo produce an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) or any other super human ability outside of the computer program? Perhaps this is a commentary on how the computer-generated world of the matrix is not that dissimilar to the world that we believe in. Perhaps Neo can change things in the real world because he is no longer confined by the boundaries of what he believes he can and cannot do. This is a running theme in Buddhism, specifically Taoism, or you could just research the allegory of the Cave in Plato’s Republic. I could go into this in great detail, but it is not my intention to insert my personal philosophy into this discussion so I wont. I am merely interested in what the writers are trying to convey.
    while i see the other theory as more plausible in the grand scheme of things, this would be an interesting way to go as well... the unlearing process of what is humanly and physically possible in the matrix may have triggered the same process in the real world. just as there are rules in the computer system that can be bent and broken, perhaps they are saying the rules of physics and nature can as well. the chi, the luminous beings, the spirit, whatever you want to call it, is the focus here. mind over matter. he has already staved off his own death in the first movie. the real world body died when he had been shot. the real world body came back to life when he realized he hadn't really been shot at all, and the computer had just told him so. how different is that from a miracle completely outside the matrix? not very...

    Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

    With this last possibility, there is an interesting idea that came to me. Remember when Tank, or was it Dozer, was feeding Neo fighting programs in the first movie and stated something to the effect of “he’s (Neo) been at it 10 hours straight. He’s a machine”. Well, what if he is? Agent Smith is a machine and he was able to come over the ‘real’ world. Which brings me to another idea. It is insinuated that ‘Real’ Smith triggered an EMP that disabled the ships that he was with and the sentinels slaughtered them all. Since Neo and ‘Real’ Smith are both in comas at the end of the film and Neo produced an EMP by himself. It would be fairly save to assume that Smith might have triggered the pulse without the use of the device in the ship. This leads to a lot more questions that I will get into later.
    (i call 'real' smith "banesmith," as it is not clear how much of the character called bane remains in the 'real-world' body...)

    well, neo is either a construct of the matrix as well, seeing as how the architect told him that his life was the answer to an unbalanced equation blah, blah, blah... or he is a machine of bone and muscle and blood - we are all machines, just meat machines... i hadn't thought about the idea that banesmith might have triggered an emp from his body, just as neo had... i want to hear those questions...

    Originally posted by The Ghost of Jonna

    2. Who are the 6 other messiahs that the Architect spoke of and are they still around?

    I think that one could be the snotty French guy. He seems like he buys into all of the Architect’s ideas and is now just another toady; he also seems to have a lot of toadies of his own that are old models. His girlfriend is the one that lead me to believe this though as she stated that he used to be just like Neo.
    another interesting thought... my take on it, however, was that it was always neo each time - in the architects monitors, after neo says "you still haven't answered my question" the architect says "quite right... the others didn't catch on that fast" or something to that effect. neo says "others?" as the monitors all start to say different things, hinting to the fact that it was him all the other times.

    but the merovingian being one of them raises interesting ideas, though he does say "i've survived your predecessors, and i'll survive you..." it seems that the merovingian and persephone were constructs of the matrix to give them more insight into the culture (M) and feelings (P) of humans. it just made sense for them to be together as they studied humans, probably to help the architect write better programs. the merovingian dynasty is seen as the first french kingdom. i don't know how this relates to the character other than the fact that he adopted french as his culture... there might be something in the history of the merovingian dynasty that mirrors his actions.

    here's a brief description of the merovingian dynasty.

    http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397220

    the only thing that stands out is the phrase "The pattern of dividing and then reuniting the realm continued for generations." - perhaps the dividing and reuniting of the matrix between those that accept the program and those that "drop out?"

    persephone, however, is more straightfoward - greek goddess abducted and married to hades, greek god of the underworld. the merovingian's look of a gangster (underworld) his evil quest for power, and his mischievousness ("this is only a game") all signify a devilish character.

    persephone is the daughter of zeus and demeter, who when persephone is abducted by hades creates the seasons. here's the back story on that...

    http://www.messagenet.com/myths/bios/persephone.html

    the line "giving us the sweetness of Spring and the bitterness of Winter" shows her character traits - that of kindness and sweetness to neo, and the bitterness and coldness to the merovingian.

    more to come. i have to let some things settle in my brain...
    Last edited by darthvyn; 05-17-2003 at 11:36 PM.
    Nachos are the right of all sentient beings.

    The guns... They've stopped!
    - Dan Akroyd, Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope

  8. #8
    I had something I wanted to say, but after reading all the posts my head hurts. That's why I love these forums, cool and intelligent discussions. Not just another "It Rocks!" or "You're Stupid" two word posts. Soon as my head stops swimming, I'll post some of my ideas- keep up the good work all.


    =MATT=
    * General Disclaimer- I can't spell or type- Deal with it.

  9. #9
    Originally posted by Eternal Padawan
    Here's a major spoiler: After the credits roll on the third film, it's going to cut back to a psyche ward and the camera dollies up to a window into a rubber room, where we see Mr. Anderson in a strait jacket screaming "I'm the one! I'm the ONE!"

    So the whole thing was in his head. SUCKERS!
    I vote for Eternal Padawan. Now that's an ending. With all the wagons I've been falling off lately, I need a thoughtless ending.
    Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis

  10. #10
    Here's a question I had. The Oracle mentions stuff about aliens, ghosts, etc. and tells why they're caused in the Matrix. Then there's that scene with Persephone asking one of her husband's guards how many people keep silver bullets in their guns before she shoots him. Now, was that guy a werewolf? I know this isn't as deep as the things you guys are discussing, but I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this. Also, he's got those twins who can do some "ghost" like things. Anyway, I thought that was cool for the writers to put in the film.
    Back and more bearded than ever before

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