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  1. #1

    Why the OT is better (at least for me)

    It took me a couple viewings of the PT to figure it out but here it is. Don't get me wrong I like the PT but the OT is still better and more enjoyable to watch over and over again. At first I thought it had to do with the nostaglia of the OT that made it the favorite series but I don't think that's it any more.

    The PT is just too freakin difficult to follow. The plot is WAAAAAYYY too complex. I remember leaving the TPM theater scratching my head trying to remember why there was a trade blockade, what happened in the Senate or how the Sith fit into all of that? That doesn't make for a good movie.

    It's seems that GL knows that Episode 3 is the big pay off that will set up for the OT. The PT, in his vision, needs to be planned as a whole with each part building on the last. The OT wasn't like that. Each movie had a beginning, middle and end. Sure there were a couple unanswered questions after ESB but we knew who the bad guys were and the background explanations were short and sweet. Now were building to a 3 movie explaination of why/how Palpatine became the Emperor. 8 hours of background information for a character that makes an appearance requiring no background information in RotJ?

    In the OT the bad guys were just bad, no questions asked. Well we're now spending 3 movies getting answers to those questions that no one was asking. Sure we were all a bit curious how Vader became so evil and how Luke and Leia were associated with that but just have Obi Wan say to Luke "your father couldn't control his anger after his mother was killed." Bam! We saved 8 hours right there. More time for space adventures and less time needed watching Space Senate Hearings. Star Wars CSPAN? No thanks.
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  2. #2
    Of course I have to chime in on this.

    More or less, I agree with your assessment, except that for me, it isn't the political manueverings that bother me so much as the clumsy way it is all going down.

    For instance, the dinner table scene in TPM is an example of the cardinal mistake of amateurish writing. Sitting your cast down at a table to discuss the plot is supposed to happen in pre-production, not in the movie itself.

    The reason a movie is a movie is because it affords the storyteller the ability to show things instead of having to rely on characters telling us everything.

    This is a recurring problem throughout Episodes I and II that contributes to the very problem you've described above. The only time the "plot" is discussed like this in the OT is in the Ewok village when 3PO is recapping their adventures in Ewokese.

    The OT story is just as "complicated" as anything the Prequels have presented. The difference is that all the questions are dealt with, if they ever come up at all. As you mention, plot points in the Prequels are concocted without reason simply for the express purpose of clumsily advancing the story to the next scene. The Midichlorians are an excellent example of this. Instead of constructing a sequence which shows Ani's potential power, Lucas instead invented a completely random and extraneous method to tell us all about it (in tandom with the aformentioned dinner table scene).

    The politics of the Prequels are interesting, but the manner in which the entire story is being presented is just plain clumsy, non-subtle, confusing, and convoluted. I think that this is why some people make the claim that the OT is "too simple" and the Prequels are "deep and complicated." In my opinion, they're confusing "seriously disorganized" with "depth."

    But hey, that's just my opinion.
    Last edited by stillakid; 05-28-2003 at 12:02 AM.

  3. #3
    I hear what you're saying EP, but I love the prequels just as much I'm sure as you love the OT.

  4. #4
    I guess for me it is because they were there first.
    Last edited by scruffziller; 05-28-2003 at 01:20 PM.
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  5. #5
    Originally posted by stillakid

    The only time the "plot" is discussed like this in the OT is in the Ewok village when 3PO is recapping their adventures in Ewokese.

    The Only time?

    1. Tarkins conversation with the governors in ANH is pretty much the same thing. Plot talk with a wee glimpse of Vaders ability.

    2. Bens conversation with Luke in his home. Again, sitting down, talking plot.

    3. Lando's encounter with Han in the dungeon post interrogation. Again, much talk of what is going to happen in about 5 minutes time.

    4. ROTJ in general is rife with these sorts of scenes, however, 3po and r2 walking toward jabbas palace stands out in my mind at the moment......

  6. #6
    Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
    The Only time?

    1. Tarkins conversation with the governors in ANH is pretty much the same thing. Plot talk with a wee glimpse of Vaders ability.
    I'll concede that one. But it's not a concocted scene in the same way as the Ep I dinner sequence.

    Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
    2. Bens conversation with Luke in his home. Again, sitting down, talking plot.
    eh. Sort of. But again, Luke's meeting with Ben wasn't as manufactured as the group just magically running into Anakin and for no reason at all, being invited to dinner.

    Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
    3. Lando's encounter with Han in the dungeon post interrogation. Again, much talk of what is going to happen in about 5 minutes time.
    Huh? Lando and Han never exchanged more than a couple sentences between them.

    Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
    4. ROTJ in general is rife with these sorts of scenes, however, 3po and r2 walking toward jabbas palace stands out in my mind at the moment......
    Again, they are doing something on their way to doing something else. The action is plausible and justified in the course of the story.

    I wasn't suggesting that characters never express their future plans. What I was saying was that in a well-told story, you don't merely sit the characters down and have them discuss everything about the story ahead of time. The TPM dinner sequence tells us repeatedly about Ani's force ability, but we are never ever shown anything about it until Episode II (aside from the Romper Room magic mirror stunt which was uber-lame).

  7. #7
    Originally posted by stillakid
    I'll concede that one. But it's not a concocted scene in the same way as the Ep I dinner sequence.
    Well....technically, every scene in a film is "concoted"


    Originally posted by stillakid

    eh. Sort of. But again, Luke's meeting with Ben wasn't as manufactured as the group just magically running into Anakin and for no reason at all, being invited to dinner.
    Wait....ben just "happens" to be walking by at the moment when Lukes life was threatened and your complaining about Jinn and co. meeting anakin in a atuo supply store. At least they were looking for something. Also, he invited them in because a sandstorm was coming and they needed shelter. Of course it is more likely that Ben was keeping an eye on Luke the entire time, however, no explanation is given to prove this.

    Originally posted by stillakid

    Huh? Lando and Han never exchanged more than a couple sentences between them.
    Lando essentially tells us what happened before Han and crew arrived. He then goes on to tell them about the real plan, which, funnily enough, plays out in front of us about 5 minutes later. Sure, he isn't "sitting", but everyone else is

    Originally posted by stillakid


    Again, they are doing something on their way to doing something else. The action is plausible and justified in the course of the story.
    Ok, I'll concede that one.

    Originally posted by stillakid


    I wasn't suggesting that characters never express their future plans. What I was saying was that in a well-told story, you don't merely sit the characters down and have them discuss everything about the story ahead of time.

    What it basically comes down to is expository dialogue and, whether characters are sitting or walking, both trilogies are rife with this sort of exposition.

  8. #8
    Originally posted by The Overlord Returns
    What it basically comes down to is expository dialogue and, whether characters are sitting or walking, both trilogies are rife with this sort of exposition.
    I disagree with that one. When I first started learning how to write screenplays, I picked up a random "how-to" book which happens to "coincidently" have been the best one. Anyhow, in it, the author made an outstanding point which I haven't forgotten to this day. He said, it's great for your story to have a theme, just don't let any of your characters know what it is. The point being, as soon as one of them finds out (from the author) what the "big picture" is, invariably he is going to say it onscreen.

    While the expository dialogue does exist in the OT as it does in just about every film ever made, the Prequels make the mistake of "explaining" nearly everything, from the plot (who, what, and most terribly...why) to the science of how things work (Midichlorians). In our real world, we don't get in a car and ask, "hmm, Master Qui Gonn, what's a gasket?" The OT didn't give a rats arse about the "how." It wasn't important. The spaceships were just a run of the mill method to get from point A to point B. The Force was just this magical thing that could be used as taught by Old Ben and Yoda.

    But the Prequels felt the necessity to try to explain it all. Midis'? What for? Why tell us this? What did we gain by knowing about Midichlorians that we couldn't have gotten instead from a scene that showed us that Anakin was special? That's the point. Show me...don't tell me. The OT was a rollercoaster adventure ride that didn't have to stop to "explain" itself. TPM stopped cold outside on the gantry when the story had to "explain" something that had been said a few minutes prior..."Master Yoda said something about Midichlorians...what are Midichlorians?" Exactly. Why bother? It just creates the necessity to concoct a clumsy moment at a ridiculously random moment in the story to "explain" something that had no true purpose in the first place.

  9. #9
    Originally posted by stillakid
    .."Master Yoda said something about Midichlorians...what are Midichlorians?" Exactly. Why bother? It just creates the necessity to concoct a clumsy moment at a ridiculously random moment in the story to "explain" something that had no true purpose in the first place.
    If GLu just left us hanging with "His midichlorian count is higher than Master Yoda's", we would've have been scratching our heads about that, too.
    I don't mind the "explaining" so much. It answers most of the questions that people have been asking about ever since the OT came out.
    My impression of why we are seeing so much Senate discussions, is that we are being shown how much turmoil and disarray the galaxy is in, how strong Palpatine's grasp is on it, and the few people that are willing to stand up to the corruption that is causing all of this mess.
    If the story started with Palpy just taking control, creating an army, taking out the jedi, and everyone in the universe just bending over and taking it, it would make for a pretty boring 2 hours IMO.
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  10. #10
    Originally posted by DarthChuckMc
    If GLu just left us hanging with "His midichlorian count is higher than Master Yoda's", we would've have been scratching our heads about that, too.
    I don't mind the "explaining" so much. It answers most of the questions that people have been asking about ever since the OT came out.
    My impression of why we are seeing so much Senate discussions, is that we are being shown how much turmoil and disarray the galaxy is in, how strong Palpatine's grasp is on it, and the few people that are willing to stand up to the corruption that is causing all of this mess.
    If the story started with Palpy just taking control, creating an army, taking out the jedi, and everyone in the universe just bending over and taking it, it would make for a pretty boring 2 hours IMO.
    Very much agreed.


    The thing about presenting a positive prequel opinion to stilla is it's a wasted effort b/c after stilla makes his post the blinders go on, and anything I, TOR, DCM, or anyone else who has positive things to say about the prequels, or a logical explenation is offered, goes ignored. Then you can be sure to expect him to state his opinion all over again, but this time also breaking down your own to try in some futile attempt to make himself look better. He will keep coming back forcing his opinion (in stilla's mind these are facts BTW) on everyone regardless of how much your opinion makes perfect sense. Everyone in the world could agree with you, but in stilla's world he convinces himself everyone agrees with him and you are 100% wrong in stating your opinion.
    Last edited by mini-rock; 05-28-2003 at 07:26 PM.

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