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  1. #1

    "I will even be able to keep people from dying!"

    I've been listening to the Return of the Jedi Radio Drama in my car the past few days, and something that I'd previously considered a throwaway line seems to contrast pretty interestingly with one of the most important lines from Attack of the Clones.

    Luke: You can't die, Master Yoda.
    Yoda: Strong am I in the Force, but not that strong.

    Anakin: I will be the most powerful Jedi ever, and I'll even be able to stop people from dying.

    We already know from TPM that Anakin is (potentially, at least) stronger in the Force than Yoda. That's not an issue. We also know that the line in ROTJ was probably intended as nothing more than just a cute one-liner twenty years ago.

    But the line in AOTC is definitely not a throwaway. It's foreshadowing something, but what?

    Is it just a reference to Vader's saving Luke (and "Anakin," who according to Obi-Wan, is dead) in ROTJ? Or maybe the three Jedi we know to return from the dead (Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon) were able to do so because of their own powers in the Force and the love (familial, of course) they felt for the Chosen One?

    Or perhaps the lines aren't connected, and Anakin will fall to the Dark Side because he believes fails in his promise, allowing Padme to die (or appear to be dead to him, at least).

    Or something altogether different, maybe?
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  2. #2
    Good points. To me, Yoda's line is important. Strong am I, but not that strong. So, it seems as if it's impossible for someone to not die when he should. He doesn't say, Strong am I but possilbe that is not.

    So, perhaps what is more likely to happen is that Anakin does die or encounters an event that would kill a normal jedi, but he's not normal and he doesn't die. Kind of like a Neo moment. This is the key event that makes him turn into Vader and thus the good man that was Anakin was destroyed.

    Speculation to say the least, but I do believe something will come of these lines.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by icatch9
    So, perhaps what is more likely to happen is that Anakin does die or encounters an event that would kill a normal jedi, but he's not normal and he doesn't die. Kind of like a Neo moment. This is the key event that makes him turn into Vader and thus the good man that was Anakin was destroyed.
    That could be the 'lava theory', sorry I brought it back up guys.... Any normal guy would have died falling into that, but maybe Anakin's use of the force was strong enough to allow him to survive long enough until he is put in the suit .

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter

    But the line in AOTC is definitely not a throwaway. It's foreshadowing something, but what?
    You're assuming that George is a top notch screenwriter. I submit that there is more than enough evidence to prove that he, indeed, is not. So the fact very well may be, and most likely is, that the line in AOTC is indeed a throwaway and indicates no substantial meaning whatsoever.

    If you somehow managed to disagree with that assessment, the fact remains however that any event that a line like that might foreshadow would belong somewhere in the Original Trilogy. As we not only saw nothing of the sort, but also no allusion to any kind of "superpower" like that was made by Vader, it is reasonable to say that the line had better not be an element of foreshadowing lest it fall short of its intended goal and once again proving that George's writing ability isn't up to snuff.

    So, any way you slice it, George screwed up somewhere, either in AOTC or in the OT. And being that the OT managed to be the more popular and critically acclaimed trilogy of the series thus far, I'm inclined to go with the summation that the line in AOTC was out of place. It would best to think of most of the Prequel lines and events as "throwaways," lest they cast serious structural and continuity problems upon an otherwise enjoyable classic trilogy of films.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    You're assuming that George is a top notch screenwriter. I submit that there is more than enough evidence to prove that he, indeed, is not. So the fact very well may be, and most likely is, that the line in AOTC is indeed a throwaway and indicates no substantial meaning whatsoever.

    If you somehow managed to disagree with that assessment, the fact remains however that any event that a line like that might foreshadow would belong somewhere in the Original Trilogy. As we not only saw nothing of the sort, but also no allusion to any kind of "superpower" like that was made by Vader, it is reasonable to say that the line had better not be an element of foreshadowing lest it fall short of its intended goal and once again proving that George's writing ability isn't up to snuff.

    So, any way you slice it, George screwed up somewhere, either in AOTC or in the OT. And being that the OT managed to be the more popular and critically acclaimed trilogy of the series thus far, I'm inclined to go with the summation that the line in AOTC was out of place. It would best to think of most of the Prequel lines and events as "throwaways," lest they cast serious structural and continuity problems upon an otherwise enjoyable classic trilogy of films.
    Imagin that. Stillakid is insulting GL. Who didn't see that comeing. Stillneverhappykid more like it. I'm not bashing or flameing you, but I just knew that when I saw your name on this post it wouldn't be stateing something good . Keep up the good work, someone has to play the part of the devils advocate.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by icatch9
    Imagin that. Stillakid is insulting GL. Who didn't see that comeing. Stillneverhappykid more like it. I'm not bashing or flameing you, but I just knew that when I saw your name on this post it wouldn't be stateing something good . Keep up the good work, someone has to play the part of the devils advocate.
    Just stating the situation. Don't blame the messenger.


    Just for giggles, please definitively refute anything that I've said thus far. Thanks!

  7. #7
    A good observation El Chux!

    I think that there is some possibility here, although I don't feel that Anakin will necessarily prevent HIMSELF from dying, but Padme.

    Anakin may be put in a situation where he needs to make a decision: Help Padme (who will need his help) or something else (like maybe helping Mace so he doesn't get killed). The right decision is not helping Padme because "help" her "you can, but destroy everything for which" she "has fought and suffered for".

    Anakin will end up saving Padme's life only to lose her because he made a selfish decision and not a decision to help the galaxy.

    Did that make sense?
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  8. #8
    When have the critics EVER liked Star Wars?

    I still think (here comes an opinion based on nothing)......that you're looking at the Prequels through jaded eyes. Seeing something when you are a child can have a great impact on a person...positive or negative...

    Face it, you (and the rest of us), have just "grown up". Your tastes have changed. It happens.

    You are expecting to walk into a theater, 25 years later, and feel the same way you did when you were 5 years old.....sorry...it AIN'T gonna happen.

    My kids, and nephews, and nieces, and younger cousins, and neighbor's children PREFER the Prequels. The OT is slow and boring to them.
    Sure they like Luke, Han, the Ewoks and of course VADER, but that isn't enough to hold today's kids attention.

    We grew up in different times. You mention a while back, that you felt the PT played out like a 2 hour video game....guess what...KIDS LIKE VIDEO GAMES.

    If GL would've made the PT EXACTLY like the OT...the way you wanted it, honestly....I think it would've flopped.

    I LOVE the OT, don't get me wrong, but I find as many faults in them as I do the PT. These movies are not perfect, nor are they meant to be.
    They are 2 hour escapes from reality...a way to sell popcorn and cokes.
    It's cowboys and indians in space, with a little King Arthur and 7 Samuri thrown in.

    Why can't some people just accept the fact that these are just entertainment? Nothing more.

    If the OT inspired you to be a screen writer, director, make-up artist, cg artist, computer programmer, pilot, rodeo clown..whatever...good for you. Seriously....good for you. I think it's great that some people got more out of the movies than I did.

    You want to know what I got out of them? Fun, excitement, thrills, chills, happiness, joy..etc.

    I don't think GL meant to inspire people to do anything other than have fun.


    Now.....sorry for the rant...to be on topic...

    GL has mentioned that Anakin's transformation into Vader, his...reawakening..if you will...is supposed to mirror a classic horror film. My guess is something along the lines of Frankenstein's monster.
    Maybe Anakin does die. His body is partially destroyed be it by lava, lightsaber, force lightening....
    Anakin dies, but his strength in the Force is so strong, that he brings himself back from the dead. Like a Jason, Michael Myers, Freddy kind of thing.

    We see him die, dead as roadkill, ripped to shreds and burned alive. Obi-wan leaves, and we see Anakin slowly start go wake up..manically laughing..knowing that he was right...he cheated death..he was strong enough to keep someone from dying.

    Just a way out there theory.

    I apologize for any mispellings or run on sentences. I'm only a high school graduate from Florida...I blame the system
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthChuckMc
    When have the critics EVER liked Star Wars?

    I still think (here comes an opinion based on nothing)......that you're looking at the Prequels through jaded eyes. Seeing something when you are a child can have a great impact on a person...positive or negative...

    Face it, you (and the rest of us), have just "grown up". Your tastes have changed. It happens.

    You are expecting to walk into a theater, 25 years later, and feel the same way you did when you were 5 years old.....sorry...it AIN'T gonna happen.
    No. I know that that is a favorite "out" by many who enjoy the Prequels thoroughly, but I promise you that it isn't the case for me.

    The unsaid assertion by your statement is that children are morons who don't have the ability to recognize a good story when they see one. Sure, the language that we use to talk about films changes as we grow and our vocabulary expands, but a child (in that 7 to teen range as many of us were then) can tell a piece of garbage from the real thing. We used words like "cool" and "awesome" where as adults we can (some of us anyway) reasonably examine things like scenes, dialogue, acting, production design, continuity, etc. Yes, we've grown up and changed, but the basics of good storytelling never do and never will. TPM blew in many ways more than it didn't.

    The question being, is this line a throwaway? You tell me. Where in the OT (read: the climax of the epic) does this concept of stopping people from dying ever come up? Where is it mentioned by Vader? By Anakin? Nowhere? Exactly. And why not? Afterall, this is one of the MAIN reasons that we are being force fed as reason for Anakin to get his dander up enough to become evil. We should therefore have the reasonable expectation that at some point...anypoint really, in Vader's career as an agent for the Darkside, that we see him make the attempt to A)stop people from dying, and B)succeed or fail at it.

    Now, maybe Ozzel was really choking on a chicken McNugget when Vader called and Vader was really trying to help him to no avail...but I doubt it.

    So the question remains...what's up with this "I'll even stop people from dying" nonsense. Why is that line there at all? Is the OT flawed for not including any references to it or is AOTC flawed for foreshadowing an intention which will never come to pass. Or maybe the third option in which Georgie will reedit the OT to stuff in references to Vader trying to save lives, Obi giving proper credit to Qui Gon for finding Ani, and Midi's running the whole show. We'll be waiting with baited breath for the answers to all those perplexing questions!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    The question being, is this line a throwaway? You tell me. Where in the OT (read: the climax of the epic) does this concept of stopping people from dying ever come up? Where is it mentioned by Vader? By Anakin? Nowhere? Exactly. And why not? Afterall, this is one of the MAIN reasons that we are being force fed as reason for Anakin to get his dander up enough to become evil. We should therefore have the reasonable expectation that at some point...anypoint really, in Vader's career as an agent for the Darkside, that we see him make the attempt to A)stop people from dying, and B)succeed or fail at it.


    So the question remains...what's up with this "I'll even stop people from dying" nonsense. Why is that line there at all? Is the OT flawed for not including any references to it or is AOTC flawed for foreshadowing an intention which will never come to pass. Or maybe the third option in which Georgie will reedit the OT to stuff in references to Vader trying to save lives, Obi giving proper credit to Qui Gon for finding Ani, and Midi's running the whole show. We'll be waiting with baited breath for the answers to all those perplexing questions!


    It's not nonsense, it's not even necessarily a foreshadowing, and it CERTAINLY does not mean that one or the other set of films is an ANY way flawed because of this.

    Anakin has just returned with his mother's corpse and he also failed himself by slaying (understandably ) his mother's murderers, their accomplices, and their innocents. Why the heck does this line have to "mean" anything (in terms of foreshadowing) to the rest of the films? I think it says a lot by itself already.

    He's hurt. He's confused. He WANTS HIS MOTHER BACK and he doesn't want to ever experience such pain again. Soon later, during the funeral, he swears to his mother's grave that he won't fail her again. Now come on, who can't relate to that? I've experienced personal tragedies before and one of my thoughts was always that I never wanted to experience that again. Thankfully, I've never lost anyone and took the blame on myself but if I did, I can sympathize with how guilty I would feel. So Anakin feels responsible for not saving his mother and yet in his immaturity he is also shifting some of that blame on to Obi-Wan and, in a greater sense, the Jedi. He can't handle all of those feelings so he is partly scapegoating those who are not responsible.

    Anyway, back to the dialogue at hand, I see how it can come into play later if he loses someone else . . . Padme especially, but in that case he'll have failed again and will REALLY be a timebomb over it. It doesn't have to come up again after that.

    stillakid, WHY do we "need" to see Vader make an attempt to stop people from dying? I believe that this flaw in Anakin is one of the reasons he Falls to begin with - so why are we to expect his dead/now-evil self to carry on with his pre-evil desires? That makes no sense to me. They are trying to show how Anakin's character changes and yet you are asking for his now-changed self (OT) to act in accordance with his once-good self and his former motivations? I don't get it.

    As for Yoda and his little gem, I don't think his line "strong am I, but not that strong" has ANYTHING to do with this Anakin line. To me, all he's saying is that no matter how powerful one is, he/she WILL die. Part of life is death. Death is a part of life. Intertwined. We can't live without eventually dying.

    That's PART of Anakin's problem. He can't let go. It's not really Obi-Wan's fault that Shmi died because it's not like Obi knew of Shmi's plight and prevented Ani from going to her while she suffered. Ani was having dreams about her but Obi didn't know how real they were.
    It's not Anakin's fault for not saving her because he made the best effort he could when his feelings became REALLY strong. Hindsight is partly his enemy here. If he had only left earlier, he could have saved her. Once he got to her, she was still alive but he couldn't help her further. He can't live with that. In his mind, he should have been able to save her.
    As honorable as his attempts were, there are limits to what one can do. Instead of coping with a harsh reality of life, he can't deal with it so he resolves in his desperate state to NEVER let it happen again. We have to consider the emotional state of the character. This line does not have to be a foreshadowing of events in the OT, it works for me to just show Ani's current state of mind and how it will lead to further tragedy in the NEXT film, NOT a film that takes place 20 years later.

    I'm sorry, but to me that line is a look inside himself more than anything. I'm assuming that we'll possibly see it played upon more in the next film but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to play into the OT in any way. The damage will already have been done and hte character change will already have occurred.


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