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  1. #31

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    Mentioning a stand alone episode of Angel as being reason to cancel Angel is like saying the Star Wars Christmas Special was reason to cancel Star Wars. The stand alone episodes have almost nothing to do with the series. They're just there. Most series have twenty-four stories per season (or so), but Angel and Buffy tend toward having one story. If any other show has one bad story, people just wonder what's on next week. If Angel has one bad story (which unfortunately equals an entire season), everyone wonders when it will be cancelled. A stand alone Angel episode is analagous to a couple of minutes of standard dramatic fare; it's a break from the story where a small little scene would happen in another show. I can't make the case that a show needs to be cancelled because of a couple of minutes.

    Just really quickly though: You said, "Sorry, but if you have to resort to turning your main [character?] into a muppet just to attract more viewers." I would wonder how this could be construed as a ratings grab. Do muppets tend to pull major ratings among target demographics?

    As for the Dracula episode of Buffy. I can totally see why that was largely played for laughs. When I first heard Buffy was going to meet Dracula, I started laughing almost immediately. With Dracula's being a completely fictional product of Bram Stoker's misunderstanding of various Romanian historical figures and generally confused portrayal of vampire mythos, it would be like writing a movie about astronauts going to Mars and meeting Star Trek's Mr. Spock! Try to be serious and fail; play it for laughs and it's great.

    Don't get me wrong, it's awesome that you like the series, and I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on the positives of both series, but to me the muppet episode was a non-event. It was a poke at Barney and how long our little sister/brother/cousin/neighbor sits transfixed in front of the screen watching what we all know has to be some nefarious byproduct of Satan wrapped in fluffy packaging. From what I understand anyway, David Boreanaz was unable to film (because he hurt himself if I recall) so they threw together an episode that didn't require him to be on set as much.

  2. #32

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom-like Menace
    Just really quickly though: You said, "Sorry, but if you have to resort to turning your main [character?] into a muppet just to attract more viewers." I would wonder how this could be construed as a ratings grab. Do muppets tend to pull major ratings among target demographics?
    Actually, I guess I'm saying muppets tend to be quite the opposite for me. Because of the preview for that ep, showing he was turned into a muppet made me NOT watch the show.... No, I don't think this one ep ALONE means a show should be cancled, I am just stating that, imo, it reflects that they are running low on ideas. Okay, Dave hurt himself and I can understand not being available to flim, but couldn't htey have easily focused the ep on aother character? make it where dave just wasn't needed at all? If I recall correctly (and with my luck I don't ) they did that a couple times with Buffy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom-like Menace
    As for the Dracula episode of Buffy. I can totally see why that was largely played for laughs. When I first heard Buffy was going to meet Dracula, I started laughing almost immediately. With Dracula's being a completely fictional product of Bram Stoker's misunderstanding of various Romanian historical figures and generally confused portrayal of vampire mythos, it would be like writing a movie about astronauts going to Mars and meeting Star Trek's Mr. Spock! Try to be serious and fail; play it for laughs and it's great.
    This is where we have major differences I supose. To know the origins of Dracula's creation, as cool as that bit of knowledge might be for trivia (not trying to be sarcastic, though I think that comment might come across that way when reading this), I think the way you stated it is overinsight as far as the character himself is concerened. I don't see why playing it as serious would be a failure. Was Interview With A Vampire a failure when they portrayed vampires as real? And buffy wasn't funny when they introduced other variants of the vampire..Introducing the original, and arguably the most powerful or at very least mystical and supernatural of them all had a LOT of potential for a decent sized story arc. Humor gets you one somewhat forgettable ep with a few laughs. A GOOD serious storyarc can attract viewers for weeks!
    “Denial is in the eyes of the person you’re arguing with.” - Me

    "I try not to set standards. I don't like to show people I'm superior." - Me

  3. #33

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    First, I want to say I'm glad you didn't read any undo anger into my post, and no, any sarcasm you inject into this topic is much appreciated. I love sarcasm!

    Quote Originally Posted by Card Dreamer
    Actually, I guess I'm saying muppets tend to be quite the opposite for me. Because of the preview for that ep, showing he was turned into a muppet made me NOT watch the show.... No, I don't think this one ep ALONE means a show should be cancled, I am just stating that, imo, it reflects that they are running low on ideas. Okay, Dave hurt himself and I can understand not being available to flim, but couldn't htey have easily focused the ep on aother character? make it where dave just wasn't needed at all? If I recall correctly (and with my luck I don't ) they did that a couple times with Buffy.
    You didn't watch it? You know I could give you heck for that . You almost touched on one point I make about this episode: You and I can make a list right now of other ways they could have handled an episode without Boreanaz (I could suggest an episode based solely around Fred). The writers tried something different, figuring maybe it could be funny, maybe it might not be, but it's different. Based on that, a lot of people have broken out the kindling and kerosene. If the episode had had Angel go to New York on business while Gunn and Wesley look into a rash of child abductions, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Different doesn't always win points, but it's different.

    This is where we have major differences I supose. To know the origins of Dracula's creation, as cool as that bit of knowledge might be for trivia (not trying to be sarcastic, though I think that comment might come across that way when reading this), I think the way you stated it is overinsight as far as the character himself is concerened. I don't see why playing it as serious would be a failure. Was Interview With A Vampire a failure when they portrayed vampires as real? And buffy wasn't funny when they introduced other variants of the vampire..Introducing the original, and arguably the most powerful or at very least mystical and supernatural of them all had a LOT of potential for a decent sized story arc. Humor gets you one somewhat forgettable ep with a few laughs. A GOOD serious storyarc can attract viewers for weeks! [/QUOTE]
    Well, portraying vampires and portraying Dracula are two different things. I'd add more, but I have to get to work. Maybe later.

    Thanks.
    Member 104 of the SWC forums . . . but it's good to be back.

    Good traders: DarkJedi5, jediguy, Jedi_Master_Guyute, jedimastergeorge06

  4. #34

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    No, there's certainly nothing wrong with different, and since they didn't open something possible for a better story and then skip it for the muppet, then that's fine.

    But that's what urked me most about Dracula... I REALLY hate wasted potential for a GOOD story. To know it was there and yet SETTLE for what they did, uhg, makes me sick.
    “Denial is in the eyes of the person you’re arguing with.” - Me

    "I try not to set standards. I don't like to show people I'm superior." - Me

  5. #35

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    Sorry I goofed up the quote above. My ride decided to leave early, so I had to skip out quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Card Dreamer
    No, there's certainly nothing wrong with different, and since they didn't open something possible for a better story and then skip it for the muppet, then that's fine.

    But that's what urked me most about Dracula... I REALLY hate wasted potential for a GOOD story. To know it was there and yet SETTLE for what they did, uhg, makes me sick.
    I always figured it could have been nice if they gave us both sides. There was obvious room for another episode with Dracula. With Buffy's potential for drama, action, comedy, and all the other flavors of storytelling, Drac could have shown, and all the jokes having been made already, could have been quite the dramatic presence. I know at one time there was talk of having the character return, but I guess they had other things to do. I can see Joss deciding it was time for a dramatic turn. Look at Spike: years of being evil and not always so funny, now he's good and hysterical.

  6. #36

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    Granted, I think Spike is perhaps THE best character development in the show, PERIOD.
    “Denial is in the eyes of the person you’re arguing with.” - Me

    "I try not to set standards. I don't like to show people I'm superior." - Me

  7. #37

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    Personaly I loved the puppet episode of Angel. The best scene is when the gang is leaving and there all walking looking bad@$$ and the one leading them is a pupet. If the series had been anywhere near as good as this season has been it wouldn't have gotten canceled. The problem was as much as I liked the first 3 seasons of Buffy, Angel just never did it for me. I watched, but not with the same enjoyment I did with Buffy. The show always seemed to me to be lacking something. Then they had to do that whole Conner thing (which really sucked), I almost stopped wtching it after that.
    In other related news they wanted Buffy to be on the series finale, but apparently she is unable to do it, but Dawn will be making a guest apperance sometime soon.

    jiM

  8. #38

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    When I desrive the muppet episode, I tend to describe it in the worst possible light to make a point, that point being the episode could have twelve times less entertaining than it was, and it is still nothing to bring up. I didn't think the muppet episode was the best episode, but that's reason to bash every episode but the best, which isn't a very logical way to look at this sort of thing. I laughed a couple of times during the muppet episode, and I thought it was more or less fine. A lot of people thought it was really funny. I remember fondly Gunn's standing there after the fight with the arms of a little puppet girl in his hands at the end of the fight.

    Smurfvader, you're right about this season being great. It's been a little rough for those of us who really like Fred (so many people like her now, but am I the only person who liked her since that crazy girl hid in her room craving Taco Bell?), but the episodes have been quite engaging. Sadly, this has only added to the bitter resentment most of us feel about its possible cancellation.Yeah, even Joss Whedon has had to admit fans hated the Connor and Cordelia thing. He spoke of lynch mobs.

    To be honest, I only started really liking Angel slowly after the last couple of seasons as it slowly changed to what it is now, though I've watched it since the beginning. When Buffy came out, I didn't have the WB, so I couldn't watch it. After I got the WB, I still didn't watch it, but when Angel came out I decided I would have to check out that universe. I've not been sorry since.
    Member 104 of the SWC forums . . . but it's good to be back.

    Good traders: DarkJedi5, jediguy, Jedi_Master_Guyute, jedimastergeorge06

  9. #39

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    What happened in the Finale??
    Your signature here!

  10. #40

    Re: The WB has cancelled Angel

    The season isn't over yet. New episodes start up again next week.
    Talk Show Host Interviewing Joker: “Your said to have only killed about 600 people Joker. Now don’t take this the wrong way but I think you’ve been holding out on us.”

    Joker: “I don’t keep count. I’m going to kill everyone in this room.”

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