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  1. #1331
    Funny, I don't like the post-G1 TF stuff, and I'll mock it (usually with tongue in cheek, even if it doesn't seem that way), but I don't begrudge anyone who does. If I see a cartoon that sucks arse, I'm less likely to buy a toy I was unlikely to buy before.

    I don't understand why you say it's totally different from folks who love the OT but dislike (or refuse to acknowledge) the PT. In both, you have a classic story, and some later, subpar additions to it. There's G1, and in that you can pick cartoon, Marvel, Dreamwave, or IDW (though if you pick Dreamwave, you're nuts). If you want, you can continue that with G2 (though you're limited to the Marvel comic here). Cartoon G1 continuity continues with Beast Wars/Machines, but, face it, there are a lot of people (probably not many posting in this thread) who don't like the idea of robots turning into animals and totally discount that. Everything else is its own animal. There is a continuity, if you want to see it, but instead of one "this is absolute" story, you have a few choices.

    The only thing it seems that Transformers lines agree on is that they're two factions of alien robots from Cybertron and their leaders are called Optimus something and Megatron. Taking the ActionMasters into account, I can't even list actual transformation as consistent.

    The nostalgia plays a bit, perhaps, but couldn't the same be said about all the Han Solo figures sold in 1995? All I know is that, though some have looked well-made, no Starscream figure since G2 has interested me in the slightest, and now I have the character I remember in a figure that doesn't suck. (Of course Tycho will have a better Starscream soon, but that's out way of my budget right now, barring a US re-release.)
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  2. #1332
    Tycho, it's MP-03, Prime with trailer is MP-04. Good luck getting it sooner rather than later.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chux
    I don't understand why you say it's totally different from folks who love the OT but dislike (or refuse to acknowledge) the PT. In both, you have a classic story, and some later, subpar additions to it. There's G1, and in that you can pick cartoon, Marvel, Dreamwave, or IDW (though if you pick Dreamwave, you're nuts). If you want, you can continue that with G2 (though you're limited to the Marvel comic here). Cartoon G1 continuity continues with Beast Wars/Machines, but, face it, there are a lot of people (probably not many posting in this thread) who don't like the idea of robots turning into animals and totally discount that. Everything else is its own animal. There is a continuity, if you want to see it, but instead of one "this is absolute" story, you have a few choices.
    Because with Transformers the toys came before the story and even the US toyline while Star Wars is the basis of Star Wars and the prequels tales were conceived of intending not to be told. Because the G1 storyline was created of as a way to sell toys whereas Star Wars was conceived of as a way to tell old tales in exciting new ways. Because Hasbro is the helmer of Transformers canon and doesn't say that G1 is the only canon and everything else is EU whereas Star Wars is helmed by Lucas who indeed makes distinctions between those sorts of things. SW & Transformers is apples & oranges. Hasbro says there is no one Transformers continuity and they should know, they are the creators and license-holders of the brand, instead there is a foundation and an essence but formed into a tapestry of tales and continuities which Hasbro treats with varying importance - you think if G1 was "the canon" this upcoming movie would look the way it does?


    The only thing it seems that Transformers lines agree on is that they're two factions of alien robots from Cybertron and their leaders are called Optimus something and Megatron. Taking the ActionMasters into account, I can't even list actual transformation as consistent.
    Beast Wars also has morphing rather than transformation, a travesty. A lot of TF fans also take Japanese canon into account where there is nobody named "Optimus anything".
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  3. #1333
    I'm using "canon" as a relative term, because any fiction is relative by its nature; it's not a verifiable fact of history. Maybe I should use a different word. Regardless of what most of us like to think, fiction exists differently within every reader's (or viewer's) mind. If I choose to only acknowledge the original line as what I care in any way, shape, or form about, Hasbro is powerless to tell me I'm wrong. Just as George Lucas can spout whatever revisionism he wants to about Star Wars, but he can't actually climb into anyone's head and force them to believe him.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  4. #1334
    "Canon" is not about verifiable facts, it is defined as "the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art; any comprehensive list of books within a field; the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic", it is something an authority defines as authentic, it is essentially an artificial description of what is considered the accepted works, someone of authority defines that comprehensive list whether it is the general consensus, the Christian church, or the author/licenseholder - in Star Wars, that is George Lucas who has to tell us that his fictional works are the only canon; in Transformers it is Hasbro who defines which works are or are not canon.

    Canon in the way we are using it is essentially the author telling the audience what the "facts" of their fictional universe are, they are the truths within that body of work - Star Wars has a single statement of "truths", a canon, while Transformers has no single statement of "truths", its author says that there are many different canons so none can be the canon (not even G1 since the toys proceed the story and they come from Microman Micro-Change, Diaclone, and others), the author Hasbro says there is no 1 "truth" that overrides the others and that's what makes it a tapestry for Transformers rather than a single canon.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  5. #1335
    Oh man, why doesn't Hasbro make commercials like this? Takara in '82 took their Diaclone line and created Car-Robots, here's one for Battle Convoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_590CkmWJ7I

    It even has those little chrome pilots that Hasbro did away with, those guys are supposed to be the center of the line!

    And when Battle Convoy got an upgrade, he became Powered Convoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olv-W...elated&search=

    It's crazy to see these guys in their original contexts.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  6. #1336
    Thanks for the links. I think what most of us are stating here is a preference for G1 the way it was shown in the original after-school cartoon and our long-time dream that a live motion picture would embrace exactly that conceptualization of the Transformers that we relate to the most.

    That sum it up guys?
    BAD Pts Need: R5-C7 lf leg (x2), , R4-P44 right leg BAD Pts Offered For Trade: PM me - I have lots of parts now including BG-J38!. New Kyle Katarn is also available.

  7. #1337
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    Oh man, why doesn't Hasbro make commercials like this?
    I've been uploading videos for weeks now. Here's the first...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm8koEocLY4

    Starting with Henshin Cyborg, to Microman, and next to Diaclone. (I have a disk full of old commercials.) Those Takara spots are priceless... love the music.

    The small pilots in the Diaclone line are an even more reduced version of Microman figures, which are Henshin Cyborg boiled down. (Just think... it all started as a G.I. Joe knock-off. Ahh, the circle of life.)
    plasticfetish.net

  8. #1338
    On Starscream: In '98, Japan released a solid StarScream in the BW2 line. It may or may not have been the original character. (Reasonable people could argue either case. Likely even Takara is not really sure though.) Oh, and the LoC Starscream was good, as was the Voyager scale StarScream released as a TrU exclusive earlier this year.

    As for the factions, not every TF line has had two factions. Beast Wars had 3 factions (Maximals, Predacons, Mutants), arguable more if one counts Autobots and Decepticons referenced at various points on toy packages. And, Beast Machines had 3 factions (Maximal, Vehicon, Dinobots), and the Mutants' packaging references Beast Machines as much as Beast Wars.

    Japan has introduced 3rd factions in various lines.

    By any objective measure, Beast Wars is the best TF television series. (This is as much a function of the other series being lackluster as BW being great though.)

    G1 had some stand-out moments, but over-all really is not worthy of the slavish devotion of fans.

    And, if one wants to argue context regarding Minicons (as Chux seems to be doing), then the explication more or less justifies them.


    Dom
    -oddly enough, is looking more forward to the next issue of GI Joe than TF right now. And, planning to stay out of OT/PT debates.

  9. #1339
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic Guglieme View Post
    By any objective measure, Beast Wars is the best TF television series. (This is as much a function of the other series being lackluster as BW being great though.)

    G1 had some stand-out moments, but over-all really is not worthy of the slavish devotion of fans.
    Straight up! The G1 cartoons were fun and all, but looking at them today it becomes apparent that there wasn't a whole lot of attention paid to making a "quality" show. (It was quantity, not quality.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    plasticfetish.net

  10. #1340
    What's so funny about that is that Sunstreaker looks like he's doing something naughty, and that baby Devastator (it's called perspective, people, and it involves more than just drawing something smaller) is about to blast his arse.

    I'm hereby dropping the argument about G1 vs MiniCons and everything else. Let's just say I'll like what I like, you like what you like, and neither of us tries to forcibly convince the other by way of energo sword or twin "stunner" lasers. (Though first to correctly identify the owner of both weapons wins a kewpie doll.)

    Opened Classics Astrotrain tonight. He's the first I've been disappointed in. They obviously tried too hard to get the triple-change feature in, but leave the size and construction at the same level as the other $10 "Deluxe" figures. (Deluxe as opposed to what, exactly? Right now, they're the smallest of the line.) While he is still vastly superior to the original, well, that's because the original one really sucked. A simple retooling of the shuttle nosecone on his forearms could've been rather easy and made him a million times better.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

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