Transformers: Energon & Beyond

[JediTricks]

Yeah, I suppose the top is, but since he's not a fat guy underneath, it doesn't quite sell.

Part of the problem is we all knew Batman wasn't going to stay paralyzed for long, and Superman's big death thing had just happened a few months prior and severely overshadowed Bane's big smackdown.

[El Chuxter]

Not to mention the aftermath kinda sucked. A psychotic killer as Batman wasn't explored as fully as it should've been, and everything with Bruce Wayne hobbling around with a cane was boring as hell. And both endings rank among the worst deus ex machinas ever written. Even Dick as Batman for a month or two afterward wasn't as good as it could've and should've been.

But Bane... wow. I still get chills when I think of the panel where he identifies Bruce as Batman just from his walk, and comments that Bruce Wayne is nothing but a mask. I think he and Venom are the only truly great supervillains of the past two decades. (There are plenty of really good ones, but those two rank up there with Joker or Dr Doom.)

[JediTricks]

You do love that Bane recognizing Batman thing, don'tcha? You bring it up a lot. That's alright, but by now that's probably the main thing I know about El Chuxter. I would have liked Bane a lot more if his past wasn't so... I dunno, convoluted and ill-fitting of the character we end up with. It just seems so much less than who he is.

Personally, I really don't like Venom as a character or as a "big villain", just too easy and too much of a "look at how badarse this alien is compared to Spidey". Not that he was even in Spider-Man 3, that was NOT Venom. I don't know if I'd put Dr Doom higher though because I just was never into the Fantastic Four so he's not really on my radar all that much, I like the look but that's kinda all I got for him. The Joker's overrated in my book as well (though he's so inconsistently portrayed that I'm not entirely sure HOW I feel about the clown prince of crime).

Starscream makes a great villain, cowardly and greedy and power-mad and willing to stab his own leader in the back. They gave him a more noble characterization not too long ago that worked pretty well too, the right writers can actually do a lot with a fairly weasly character like him - which is why the movie totally failed his character.

[El Chuxter]

Starscream really is the great villain of Transformers, isn't he? Even Megatron, for all his megalomania and psychosis, has a twisted sense of honor underneath it all. Starscream would sell his own mother in a heartbeat... if he had a mother or a heartbeat.

I'm just going through all the "major" characters in the G1 Decepticons. Shockwave is all logic. Ratbat is all efficiency. Bludgeon and Thunderwing are both more "honor-bound" than Megatron. Galvatron is insanity personified. Scorponok is a one-dimensional giant in one version, and actually a flawed hero in the other. The other jets are all just foot soldiers following orders. I guess Soundwave is the only one who really even comes close to Starscream in the true villainy department.

Out of curiosity, have you read any of the Starscream stories penned by Furman in the original Marvel series? He's at his absolute most conniving cowardice there. Even if the art sucks, the issue where he is resurrected as a Pretender has possibly his single most self-serving spineless moment when Prime actually cuts loose and he goes from whooping everyone to literally begging on his knees in less than a second.

Venom is easily misused, and has been far too often. The early, more toned-down portrayal of a sick individual with a grudge against Spidey suddenly getting his memories and powers, then proceeding to really screw with him, is awesome. I love how he used to stroll up to Aunt May when Peter was talking to her and act like the sweetest guy in the world, and even tell Peter later that he'd never hurt her, but he just kept doing it only to f*** with Peter's head. That was great villainy, not the "look, I'm a bigger version of Spider-Man and I have a kewl tongue" shtick that came soon after.

[JediTricks]

I haven't read those, but that sounds pretty good. I've never been able to delve into the TF comics much, I've been loaned both old and new, but it never feels quite "there" either because of the writing or the art. From the way the comics fans talk, it sounds like I'm missing out, but I would just like to see art that is worthy of TF and that level of writing so I can fully engage.

Screamer's awesome, Megatron will actually work with his enemy to stop the greater threat, but Screamer's so selfish that almost nothing can get him to be that pragmatic, and it makes him a loose cannon out for blood and willing to take advantage of greater threats for his own needs. That's one thing TF:TM could have expanded upon and gotten really "right" instead of just "right for a few minutes" - Starscream willing to use the Autobot thrashing to toss Megs out into space, but having him use the threat of Unicron to take advantage and grab more power would have been note-perfect.


To me, as cool as the Venom you just described is, ultimately I have a hard time not getting stuck on either "over the top alien contrivance" or "Spidey's own Reverse-Flash or boring Bizarro". And any time you have a villain knowing everything about the superhero's secret identity, it always feels forced to not have that exploited to endgame immediately (Batman Begins got this right, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul did just that, he came in and took out Batman, or so he thought). Sometimes I buy the spidey-sense-nullification angle and sometimes I really don't, so it's hard for me to ever get into the character beyond that because it's a biggie and I still haven't made up my mind if it's too much of a CPD or not.

[El Chuxter]

IFrom the way the comics fans talk, it sounds like I'm missing out, but I would just like to see art that is worthy of TF and that level of writing so I can fully engage.

The last 12 issues of the first series had some beautiful art by Andrew Wildman (minus one beautiful issue by Geoff Senior). Trouble is, it picks up where the preceding 13 left off; the story would be tough to pick up in the middle, and the earlier issues were traded off between Senior and a guy named Joe Delbo, who draws the Transformers way too cartoony. (He's also inconsistent. Soundwave has suddenly lost his mask and grown a mouth in between panels on a few occasions when he was drawing.)

And any time you have a villain knowing everything about the superhero's secret identity, it always feels forced to not have that exploited to endgame immediately (Batman Begins got this right, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul did just that, he came in and took out Batman, or so he thought).

Or, if not immediately, at least at the first opportunity. (I could see a baddie who learns the secret identity waiting for a while to bide his time for the perfect opportunity to wipe his foe out.)

[darthvyn]

That was great villainy, not the "look, I'm a bigger version of Spider-Man and I have a kewl tongue" shtick that came soon after.

to be fair, as soon as venom got huge it came down from on high that he should appear as much as possible. the "kewl tongue" and all that over-the-top stuff was done by then-artist erik larsen because he didn't like the character and wanted to make him look ridiculous, or so he says.

To me, as cool as the Venom you just described is, ultimately I have a hard time not getting stuck on either "over the top alien contrivance" or "Spidey's own Reverse-Flash or boring Bizarro". And any time you have a villain knowing everything about the superhero's secret identity, it always feels forced to not have that exploited to endgame immediately (Batman Begins got this right, Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul did just that, he came in and took out Batman, or so he thought).

the same happened in amazing spider-man #347 - been a while since i read it, but basically peter got eddie to follow him to a deserted island and made venom believe he was dead.

[El Chuxter]

I wasn't dissing the tongue itself, but it did get a little ridiculous later on.

Remember how Marvel wanted to give Venom, Sabretooth, and Deadpool their own series, but there was an editorial policy against villains being the stars, so they all became heroes (or at least anti-heroes)? That was dumb. Villains turning into heroes isn't a bad idea, but several doing it in a short time period just so they can headline books is.

Amazing #347... that was a damned good issue. Whether he liked the character or not, Larsen is still the definitive Venom artist. (Take that, McFarlane!)

[Tycho]

I am not the comic book fan that many of you guys are. I know the heroes from some cartoons and movies, mostly the later-day 90's and more recent movies.

It seems to me that

Green Goblin / Green Goblin 2,
Dr. Octopus
Penguin
Magneeto
Starscream (of the G1 cartoons)

all have the most interesting stories. All the information I've ever seen about Venom doesn't impress me that much. The symbiot is much more interesting for what it does to Peter Parker, than anything it did to Eddie Brock.

Sandman even came off as an interesting villain in the latest Spidey film, and Brock did not.

[JediTricks]

Or, if not immediately, at least at the first opportunity. (I could see a baddie who learns the secret identity waiting for a while to bide his time for the perfect opportunity to wipe his foe out.)

It's a stretch, like 'why would he wait and wait?' but yeah, that's more the speed. These villains do pull stupid crap like that, "we have Batman right here boss, unconscious and tied up, what should we do with him, pull off his mask? ... No? But- ... But-! ... Sure thing boss, we'll wait for you to get here then so Bats can escape and beat us up and throw you back in Arkham where you'll stay for a few months before easily getting out and starting this whole thing all over again. ... 'What was that?' Oh, nothing boss."

the same happened in amazing spider-man #347 - been a while since i read it, but basically peter got eddie to follow him to a deserted island and made venom believe he was dead.

And luckily, in the 16.5 years since that issue, he's stayed fooled the entire time.

Remember how Marvel wanted to give Venom, Sabretooth, and Deadpool their own series, but there was an editorial policy against villains being the stars, so they all became heroes (or at least anti-heroes)? That was dumb. Villains turning into heroes isn't a bad idea, but several doing it in a short time period just so they can headline books is.

Ugh, is that the reason? I hated that crap! Venom, the anti-hero, like Marvel didn't have enough anti-heroes at the time without making all the "cool" villains anti-heroes as well. And what did that give rise to? F'ing CARNAGE! I don't think I know anybody who digs Carnage.

Deadpool is a pretty cool character though, even as an anti-hero.

Sandman even came off as an interesting villain in the latest Spidey film, and Brock did not.

OH MY GOD! How could you even say that? Sandman was the worst ****ing villain in all of movie history, and the way they wrapped that up was utterly shameless! (literally, I suppose) I guess what should we expect from someone who prefers Smallville to Superman, but still, it's stunning you'd even say that.



In actual TF news, I finally made space for MS Starscream by taking down another big TF I had there. It also freed up enough display space so Ravage (1) doesn't have to hide behind Shockblast, and Dead End isn't driving in front of the Autobots. That stand isn't all it could be though, I suspect that's gonna be a disaster at some point.