Is Chivalry dead?

[stillakid]

Just the other day I wandered into this discussion with a co-worker who began complaining because men no longer seemed to open doors the way she thought they should. Below is part of our continued "discussion" about it...



...In any case, the question you raised regarding whether or not chivalry was dead has been rolling through my head for a few days now. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for humans treating all other humans with respect and, well, if everyone could just be nice to each other then the world be a better place. But I wanted to know what the peanut-gallery thought about this, so naturally I typed "is chivalry dead" into GOOGLE and got back a few interesting links which I've offered below. I suppose if you agree with me, you'll see this as an act of "chivalry." However if you don't, then it'd be something else. In any case, I think that one can get a general idea of how this Medieval (literally) concept is viewed and practiced today:



First, here is a rather nice summation of where this concept of chivarly came from and how it worked:
http://www.kappaalphaorder.org/resou...t_chivalry.asp

And a quick essay about women and chivarly in the 21st century:
http://www.chivalrytoday.com/Farrell...-Chivalry.html

And the CODE OF CHIVALRY itself:
http://myst.gotdns.com/chivalry.php



Then the personal opinion from a variety of sources. Quick reads...


Some kind of chat board discussion regarding the loss of chivalry:
http://www.mensactivism.org/articles.../2138257.shtml


This guy has some strong opinions regarding the United Nations and manages to weave his views regarding women and chivalry into them. Take it for what it is I suppose:
http://www.pulpless.com/jneil/chivalry.html


I imagine that most women would agree with this article, however as she herself states, she wants to have her cake and eat it too. Her rationale behind thinking that full blown chivalry should still exist is that "Even the most hard-core independent woman is still a female. Females have emotions and feelings. Deep down we still want to be treated like a lady with respect, politeness and common courtesy." Really. Females have emotions and feelings? So that's why men should feel compelled to hold doors open? As I said, I think that everyone should think about holding doors open for anyone under any circumstance, but her reasoning is moronic. :
http://www.hsuoracle.com/vnews/displ.../403652d75b68d


This takes a slight bit of reading into to, but I like the idea behind this "The folly of chivalry: is it better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees?" In other words, why "submit" to someone else's authority or ask for their help when you are capable of doing something yourself? :
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2001/0...s/1315017r.htm


And I enjoyed this, um, "bi*tch" session (Chivalry is Dead, and I am an idiot. By Jen) and particularly the responses she gets as you scroll down the page. This one specifically was great!
This whole story was about how poor widdle girly you couldn't find a big stwong man to fix this twicky car thingy. MY GOD! You whine about how men don't know about cars these days. Well , what is a woman like you doing driving a car? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen baking something? You've mistaken being a whiny bimbo for being a bi*tch.

You disgust me and all true bi*tches like me!

Posted by: Sarah Dempsey on June 10, 2003 07:45 PM

: http://www.*****-sessions.com/archives/000187.html

note: you'll have to replace the insistent ***** in the URL above with the B-word ...god forbid the world will implode if it is written down.





Well, there are just a few of the interesting things I found regarding chivalry in our time. Call me what you will, but "gender-specific" preferential treatment has no place in a civilization where we are simultaneously expected to treat everyone as equals. I'll hold doors open for men and women alike. Heck, I'll even hold it open for a dog, cat, lizard, or marmaset if need be. But as we sort of talked about briefly, I think that the underlying cause of this perception that chivalry is dead has less to do with the 21st century man/woman relationship than it does a more general sense of selfishness on the part of individuals. While I wasn't there, I can only guess that life in the distant past revolved around family and a tight-knit society. Today, this is a "ME" society where we are taught to live life to the fullest...to please ourselves...to succeed despite others. This isn't a recipe for taking time from our "busy" schedules and go out of our way to helping others in need, even if it is a slight gesture. All of this is very generalized, of course, as there are plenty of individuals left who exhibit kind and courteous behavior. But even if pure chivalry is dead, I'm not so sure that it isn't a bad thing in the end because everybody deserves to be treated equally (until they prove themselves unworthy of such).

[Kidhuman]

Chivalry seems dead. I for one try and do my part to keep it going. Flowers and little gifts for the Mrs.

There are certain things that I can not do. I have no clue how to fix a car, never have, never will. I mean I can do minor things like change flats and so on. Icould never rebuild a tranny though. That to me isnt chivalry. It would be nice if I could, but certainly not chibvalry.

Now a days, you see young kids pulling up to their girlfriends house, blasting there music and beping the horn for them. They never get out to even at least meet the parents. If a guy ever came to pick up my step daughter like that,she wouldnt even be allowed to leave the house.

[stillakid]

Chivalry seems dead. I for one try and do my part to keep it going. Flowers and little gifts for the Mrs.

Do you do this with no expectations for anything in return? If so, does she "return" the favor in some way? What if she didn't? Would you feel "slighted" somehow?

I guess the question (for men) is, how much of what we do for women amounts to doing it in the hopes that they'll like us more or "do" something for us? Do men act "chivalrous" more when the lady is more attractive or are our supposedly kind acts distributed equally across the board to hot chicks and unattractive ones alike? Is it chivalry at work or is it something else?

For women (not that there are many here to answer), do you expect men to do things for you just because you are a female? How come? What about being a female entitles you to special treatment? If a man does something for you, do you ever feel obligated to "return" the favor in some way?

[Kidhuman]

Do you do this with no expectations for anything in return? If so, does she "return" the favor in some way? What if she didn't? Would you feel "slighted" somehow?

I do it because she likes the stuff I get her. She loves little stuffed animals,, flowers, etc. And I do it because I love her.

In return she does things she knows Ilike as well. Makes food I like for dinner, back rubs etc.


I dont want anything back in return. I would do it even if I didnt get anything back in return. It is done of of love and kindness towards the person who are with. It should be a no strings attatched gesture from your heart, not something to say, "I did such and such and you cant return a favor".

I guess the question (for men) is, how much of what we do for women amounts to doing it in the hopes that they'll like us more or "do" something for us? Do men act "chivalrous" more when the lady is more attractive or are our supposedly kind acts distributed equally across the board to hot chicks and unattractive ones alike? Is it chivalry at work or is it something else?

I would say in the beginning of a relationship, a guy would be doing this to make the female like him more. But the key is to do it continously. Dont stop once you landed her into a relationship. 99% of women love the romantic part of a relationship. It makes them feel attractive and above other people to the person they are with. Makes them feel secure.(He does it for me and me alone). They know they are not equals with the rest of the female population in his eyes.

Guys like it as well. The little things a girl does for a guy makes him feel the same way. I know it shows me that Sweetrain loves me and doesnt take me for granted.

The momnet all this stops is a heads up and the woman starts tofeel insecure as well as the guy. The worst thing to do is if the other person stops, for you to stop as well. Women like to be showed they are loved more than hearing it. Anyone can say I love you, and mean it or not mean it. SHowing someone is completely different.

[bobafrett]

I spent 3 years with my last girlfriend, opening the ar door for her, buying breakfast, dinner, or a movie, I treated her like a princess, and yet she dumped me. You know what, I've decided to go it alone. I try to be nice to every girl I have ever dated, not expecting anything in return. I end up being used as a doormat. Well, I have had it, I might hold the door to a 7-Eleven open, but I do that for anyone, not just women. I refuse to go out and blow one more penny, trying to find a certain someone. Sorry, butr every girl I have ever dated said I treat them like a princess, but........, yeah but they would rather date someone who is going to trat them like some bad boy. Not my style, so bye bye.

[Tonysmo]

Good topic Stilla.

You touch on a few topics related to this as well.

1st and foremost chivalry isnt dead.. at least depending on who you are.

I would have to begin by stating it all begins with how your brought up.



Parents and siblings I think have alot to do with it. I can only speak for myself in this situation. I have two older sisters. That in itself was a tremendous help for me in understanding how women in general should, and should not be treated.. as I was a 1st hand witness to both sides of it. Most of it wasn't good. My parents were divorced when I was young, but I still was able to hang out with both. Again, this actually helped me to understand what kind of parent I wanted to be. to quote the band that sings "father of mine" - My daddy gave me a name... "Everclear"

anyhow, what I learned from my sisters speaks volumes in how I treat my wife, what I teach my son, and how I treat other people. Most of it, rather oddly, is picked up just by setting examples. go figure..

My son stands at the bus stop every morning. there is another brother and sister who stand there with him.. The brother is always the 1st on the bus. always... this kid is a sh**. but that's another topic. My son however, lets this kids sister on the bus every time before he gets on. We didn't teach him this, its something he has learned on his own, that being nice to people is just the way to go... and in return you can only hope that someday in any given instance someone will be nice to you when you need it.

My kid is a cub scout ( 1st yr weblos ) and I am a leader.. I don't teach these kids - Hey - you need to be nice to women.. I tell them they need to be nice to everyone.
Hopefully they understand. I think he does. His teacher seems to go out of her way to complement his actions to us.. ( mind you - he isn't a prefect kid.. ) but she seems to take his actions as something she rarely sees in kids anymore.. again, that speaks volumes to me.

My wife is somewhat the same way. She is my kingdom. I do everything I can for her, and then some. Sometimes I feel like I go too far, cause sometimes she asks for things that seem kinda outrageous.. i.e., I work midnights, and I come home.. she asks me to go get breakfast.. dammit.. I just worked 10 hours woman, make a freakin egg,. nope.. I say, sure honey what did you have in mind? ( maybe I'm whipped? ) regardless, I do things like that because I love her. Do I expect stuff in return.. well.. sometimes heck yeah.. do I feel a bit slighted when I don't get what I want? sometimes.. heck yeah.. but I carry on. because in the end, I know I did what I could. and that's all I can do. I don't ever feel like I'm a better person because of it though. I do things for her because I want to.

and with that, it carries over. leaving a school function, someone was stuck in the mud. my son and I sat there for a half a second before I parked, blocking traffic and help this guy get his car out. It only took a second, and I didn't even wait for the thank you. Hopefully he (son) learned that sometimes ya "just do it"


Just goes back to that golden rule.. treat others as you want to be treated. You don't need to be nice to Women.. you need to be nice to everyone..

Everyone I meet is a friend, until they prove otherwise. That of course has a different meaning than "best" friends - but I'm sure you all get that..

and Boba.. buddy.. I'm sorry you've had issues in the past. it sucks. I somewhat understand. ( Id be lying if I said fully, as my relationship with my wife has gone on too long ) but seriously.. I've had relationships in the past that have gone bad. It happens to the best of us. Your a cool dude, and an even better father.. but to give up. You cant do that. I've seen you post time and time again about how your done. Your not done. You'll never be done. Your too nice of a guy. All it takes is one woman to catch your eye while your holding that door open. Dropping off that pie to the right door.. hey, it could happen.. there is someone out there for everyone.. call it the force.. call it fate.


all in all.. I believe its how you are brought up.. If your taught to respect others.. it comes natural. If your a witness to see the pain someone goes through - when the respect isn't there.. it comes even quicker for you.. hopefully.

On a side note - I have yet to come across a woman who scorned me for opening the door for them.. and if I do. my response would be a simple "your not special, I hold the door for everyone".. you can add the B word in there for the added effect.

and yeah Boba, women who like to be treated badly.. I'm with ya bro, Ill never fully understand that. that's just plain mental.

I hope thats all understandable..

smo

[Exhaust Port]

*#$*%^

Did you know that there is a key combination that closes your active window? Argh, I typed out this long response and my fingers slipped and depressed some combination on the keyboard. BAM, the window was gone. So long message...

I'll have to get back to this one later. <stupid computer/user>

[mabudonicus]

Yeah, I think what Stilla said about the much-vaunted individual "selfishness" of the modern West... the outrageous stupidity of social darwinism and stuff... is to blame for the "chivalry is dead" effect...
I consider myself to be chivalrous I guess... not so much in a "sexes" way, but overall, really.... I am "nice" to everyone, I am respectful to everyone....
Good example... I won't rush to get ahead of a person and open a door for them just because.... if I'm on a "date" I'll make sure that's the way it turns out, but I won't do the "wal-mart greeter", that's just silly.... OTOH, I won't let ANY door slam on ANYONE.... 'specially some of the heavier mall doors and stuff... even if it means standing in the way of the beam on them "auto" doors just to keep someone from getting their face crunched or whatever....

I think never having driven a car makes me more sensitive to the "physical reality" and I try, at the very least, to not make anything worse for anyone...

Two weeks ago I helped a woman push her car out of an intersection... my back hurt for days afterwards as I kicked in to "helping" mode without fully considering the implications, but I would have felt like a jerk if I hadn't assissted her (my neighborhood is pretty small and quiet, but cars still cruise right through like they were on a highway)

Now, I also have a bit of "the bad guy" in me, but it's fully intended to smarten people up, or at least scare them into using their heads

Right... the one thing that truly shows how "small" some folks' perspective is.... I can't believe when someone almost kills me with their car and then gives me dirty looks... that makes me mad in ways that boggle the mind.... unfortunately, when somone's ignorance is so dangerous, I figure they've cancelled the social contract and I kick their car as hard as I can... it's an interesting thing to watch stupid insolence turn to wide eyed terror....
Anyways, I think that sort of illustrates a bit of my point; drivers think that the laws are placed so as to hinder them.... I think they exist to try and keep people from killing one another... just like chivalry, some folks would see it as a form of weakness, tohers still see it as a mark of a truly "decent" human being.... I DON'T "expect" people to be all phoney polite or anything, just decency, and I hope your gods are stronger than mine if you ever cross that line

So I guess I'm saying that chivalry is alive and well, in a modern, unisex way...
I like to think I'm honourable, since all you really have, in the end, is yourself, might as well make that as good as you can, and as representative of your beliefs as possible... for me, selfishness only exists where others see my right to exist as an option rather than a right.....

Okay, goin to post some Dengar jokes now

[kool-aid killer]

I dont think chivalry is dead. Im no woman basher, but i think they expect a bit much when they want a man who knows when to be strong and when to be sensitive and is able to show the other side of him in a split second. We also get conflicting messages from society. To show your feelings signifies weakness. I hold a door open for anybody who is behind me, i dont expect anything in return with the exception that they do it for whoever is behind them. But as a man courts a female he will do just about anything to impress her and make himself stand out among all other men. Once the man has her he tends to take her for granted and forgets what all he did to hook her and the feelings he felt for her, and displayed, when he was courting her. Most assuredly a woman notices the change in attitude. There are plenty of good men and women out there, sometimes i think we are a bit too demanding. Reality is that everybody would love to date a attractive member of the opposite sex, for some it does happen other it doesnt. But what of the people who arent as beautiful? Whose to say that they dont have the personality that would make you feel so much better? If theres one thing i hate its picky single people.

[JON9000]

I don't know any girl who does not want the fellas to open doors and especially to pick up the tab.

However, "chivalry" is often used as a guise for the more sinister "romantic paternalism," a belief that the law should provide extra protections to women because they are weaker and gentler than men.

What most women want is chivalry without the subtext of inferiority, and I think it is almost impossible to separate the two, because everybody draws the line differently. Your best bet is to figure out quickly what kind of woman you are dealing with and treat her accordingly.

What makes me angry is some of the women who wrote those articles who who think just because they were born without one, they are entitled to special treatment. Heck no. Maybe if they actually appreciated it and encouraged it, they would get it more often.

Instead you have these harpies whining passive aggressively about the death of chivalry because a friend of a friend had a bad experience. Ladies, if you don't want narcissistic men, quit falling head over heels fo rthe backstreet boys.