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Thread: Free us or Die

  1. #1

    Free us or Die

    Ok. I have watched agll three OT movies the last two days, so I have gall these things running through my mind.

    Luke, calling himself a Jedi Knight in ROTJ, knowing what he learned from Yoda, tells Jabba "Free us or Die".

    Yoda told Luke, a Jedi's weapon is his lightsaber. It is used for defense, not murder(attacking). Luke knew fully that Jedi were peace keepers. He pretty much planned the whole rescue of Han from Jabba's Palace. He had to know that the plan might end up in violence. So, he pre-meditated murder, a trait of the Dark Side. Luke started down that pgath in ROTJ with this, and he came really, regally close at the end of the movie. The only difference was he was able to stop short of Killing his Dad.

    Anakin also pre-meditated murder when he killed the Tuskens after his Mom Died. It wasnt like he was trying to get away and had to fight his way out, he basically went out there and slaughtered them. he says so(in a horrible acting scene).

    So, basically what I am saying is Yoda also said, once you start on the path of the Dark Side, you can not turn back. Luke started going down the path, does he turn back? or does he keep going. I know in EU he goes to the dark side and returns again, but what do you think of this mentally unstable boy we have grown to love called Luke Skywalker?
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  2. #2

    Re: Free us or Die

    I've talked about this before. A friend of mine had a great insight along the lines you talk about above. It all depends on how seriously you take the line "Once you start down the darkpath, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    Without a doubt, Luke started down the darkpath. Some might argue that his tossing the lightsaber aside and facing the possibility of martyrdom indicates the existence of free will and one's ability to change an apparent destiny. It certainly makes for dramatic fiction.

    However, I'm personally of the belief that a person's fundamental nature cannot be altered. Essentially, once a jerk, always a jerk or whatever. So while Luke's intentions may be on the side of good, it's in his nature to take the shortcuts and dream of adventure and excitement just as Yoda said upon their first meeting.

    So while ROTJ certainly ended giving us this impression that Luke had stopped the cycle of evil that might have plagued his bloodline, if we take that line about the darkpath seriously, it doesn't take much of a stretch to suggest that Luke's future would be one of unintentional evil. How so? Remember, Luke feels strongly that he is on the side of good throughout the Original Trilogy and rightfully so. But he is clearly positioned to take a lead role in the rebuilding of the Republic at the close of Episode VI. Being all-powerful with political strength and the desire to do away with the "opposing side" presents the temptation to do whatever it takes to achieve the end goal. So seemingly, just as Anakin supposedly feels that he indeed is on the "right" side of things, Luke could very well be blinded to the reality of his own actions merely because his ultimate goal is perceived as being good for all.

    So anyway, if the saga did continue with this mindset, the only possible conclusion would put Leia in the position of having to stop Luke. He of course wouldn't really understand why she would do such a thing as his goals are the same as hers, but the method is the thing that is in question. War begets war and evil begets evil. Therefore the only path to stopping the cycle of evil in the Skywalker family is for Leia to illustrate her devotion to the cause of peace by achieving true martyrdom by Luke's blade. Only then, after the terrible deed had been done, would Luke see the path that he is on and realize that he travelled that dark path, however unintentionally. His only choice at that point would be to join his sister in death to show the galaxy just how committed to peace he was.

    A bleak ending to the saga for sure, especially given the genre. But just as real life leaders like Jesus and Gandhi taught so well, the only way to true peace and justice is not through conflict. To lead by example is the ultimate way to a kind of utopia.

  3. #3

    Re: Free us or Die

    kidhuman, Luke did not in any way murder anybody in ROTJ. Yes, a lightsaber is for defense and how was it not being used in that way ? His friend was being held captive in a torturous way. He tried to make a deal with Jabba to free Han and when that attempt and even the "last chance" on the skiff were refused, Luke had no choice but to kill in defense of himself and his friends.

    Anakin's AOTC slaughter of the Tuskens was not premeditated murder. Premeditation is often thought of as being "cold blooded" in that it requires conspiracy and the execution of that plan. Anakin just lost his mother and his rampage was in a fit of rage. At worst, it was 2nd degree murder. However, the point you made is just the same in that he went overboard in his use of the Force.
    Luke did not start down the dark path with the Jabba scenario. It started when he began to use his anger while striking at Vader. Luke is in no way "destined" to continue down that path. He didn't even kill anybody !
    Anakin, however, DID use his anger to slaughter those Tuskens and it is obviously a component in his fall to the darkside. Luke didn't even go NEARLY that far.

    stillakid, we disagree that a person's fundamental nature can't be altered and that's fine. But I'm surprised that you cited Jesus in your post when one of that guy's main points was that people CAN change.

  4. #4

    Re: Free us or Die

    His plan included putting a lightsaber in R2. Why? Because if he was backed into a corner he would have to fight agnd kill people to get his friends out of there. If he didnt hagve to fight, then he wouldnt of used it. I believe Luke saw the vision of what would happen and where then "end" supposedly was to take place for him and his crew. How else would R2 know to be on Jabbas deck at that precise moment? It was all planned out thagt way, so he knew he would have to kill people and didnt have a problem doing it either.
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  5. #5

    Re: Free us or Die

    Not to get off subject, but I don't think R2 'knew' to be there at that exact time. I think R2 may've been programmed to get Luke's saber to him in case of an emergency. R2's being right there was more convenient story telling, IMO. R2 would've had to have influenced Ev-9D9 for the bartending position (since Luke obviously told R2 about his vision and how it would turn out).

    I don't recall seeing Luke take any shortcuts in the movies. I do remember him saying something could be done when everyone else was saying it couldn't; I remember him going above and beyond his duty in securing Echo Base; and exemplafying (sp?) himself in combat and leading the more experienced pilots in the final run.

    I also don't agree that Luke was trying to squash any opposition to the Alliance. He started out wanting to avenge his father, who was murdered by Vader. Then Luke discovers that the Empire, of which Vader is repersentative of, has murdered his only family (Owen and Beru). Other then trying to stop the tyranny and murder of the Empire, what opposition was he crushing?

    C, I agree with your assessments of the Jabba situation and Ani's slaughter of the Tuskens.
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  6. #6

    Re: Free us or Die

    Quote Originally Posted by kidhuman
    His plan included putting a lightsaber in R2. Why? Because if he was backed into a corner he would have to fight agnd kill people to get his friends out of there. If he didnt hagve to fight, then he wouldnt of used it. I believe Luke saw the vision of what would happen and where then "end" supposedly was to take place for him and his crew. How else would R2 know to be on Jabbas deck at that precise moment? It was all planned out thagt way, so he knew he would have to kill people and didnt have a problem doing it either.

    And ?

    So what if he knew that he would probably have to kill ? That's not the point. The point is that he was ready to kill in defense of his friend. Just as a Jedi is allowed to do.

    Was he supposed to just let Han die ?

  7. #7

    Re: Free us or Die

    Clearly Anakin was redeemed and seen standing among Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of ROTJ, so that permanant attachment to the Dark Side might be a little scare tactic to use against the Padawans, or it could be like being an alcoholic. You may be sober for 30 years, but you are still an alcoholic.

    Anyway, Luke was a pretty goody-two-shoes kind of guy, despite his choice in wardrobe. After all, why else would he have made a lightsaber that could pass through all of those guys working for Jabba, without actually cutting any of them in half?

  8. #8

    Re: Free us or Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar
    And ?

    So what if he knew that he would probably have to kill ? That's not the point. The point is that he was ready to kill in defense of his friend. Just as a Jedi is allowed to do.

    Was he supposed to just let Han die ?

    My point is it was planned out and pre-meditated murder. He knew it would come to it and he didnt care as long as he got what he wanted.
    thanks Chux Turbo LBC Bobafrett Mtriv73 Rjarvis JF96 JT JMG FB Rogue2 Tycho Slicker Deoxy Caesar JontheJedi JJReason Brandon Solo JMS UK for great deals.
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  9. #9

    Re: Free us or Die

    I've always seen the whole "Free us or die" thing as an empty threat, a foolish attempt to intimidate Jabba.
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  10. #10

    Re: Free us or Die

    Quote Originally Posted by kidhuman
    My point is it was planned out and pre-meditated murder. He knew it would come to it and he didnt care as long as he got what he wanted.
    So then how would you define "defense" ?

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