Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

[stillakid]

How is it not deception? Here's another example that might prove my point. A guy goes to a strip club with some friends. His girlfriend asks him later what he did the night before. He says "I went out with a few freinds and had some drinks." This is technically not a lie but it is a deception because he knows his girlfriend would flip out if she knew the truth. But by leaving out the strip club detail she would think he just went to the local bar and hung out. Now I would never change the fact that Obi-Wan said what he did for any reason. But as noble as his reason are Luke took away the wrong image of what happened and Obi-Wan knew and more importantly he planned on it.

This is technically not a lie.

Hey, you said it. I didn't. (Well, I did, but you just did too. )

Look, I will admit that it's a bit of manipulation, but a lie...no. As stated, Ben hid Luke with his brother, Owen, and kept watch over him on a desolate planet far out of the way where Palpatine and Vader would never think to look (if they knew about the kids). Therefore it is logical to assume that Yoda and Ben both had it in mind to eventually bring Luke into the conflict and hopefully capitalize on his potential Force abilities. Why else would Ben hang around so close to Luke otherwise?

So, with that in mind, when Luke and his troubles fall into Old Ben's lap, and Luke pops the question about daddy, Obi Wan has to tell him something. He isn't about to lie to the kid, but he can't exactly tell him that daddy's body is running around with an evil personality in it. First of all, who would believe it? And second, he figured that a rash young naive Luke wouldn't understand the complexities of the bi-polar personality disorder that is inflicting Anakin and might rush off in a bid to reunite with daddy. Not only could Luke wind up dead, but worse, Vader and Palpatine would take advantage of Luke's youthful ignorance and undoubtedly turn Luke against Obi Wan (and the Rebellion). This, obviously, would be a bad course of action for Luke to take and Obi Wan could avoid sending Luke down that road by simply giving Luke the bare bones details about what happened to Anakin. All he needed to know at that point anyway. It wasn't a lie. Not exactly a deception either. He just left out a detail or two. But again, remember that Ben really truly believed Anakin to be dead...if not in body, at least in mind. And that's what's really important here. He told Luke that Vader murdered Anakin. And from a certain point of view, Obi Wan's point of view, that was 100% true. No lie.

[stillakid]

My best friend's wife went from normal kind considerate person to selfish bar & bed hopping tramp within a matter of months. When people ask me what happened to her, I don't tell them she's dead. That would be lying.

Is she hot? And if yes, what's her number?

[Droid]

I have to agree with those who think Ben was lying. Let's look at what he said:

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

Let's look at this. If we accept stillakid's premise that Obi-wan considered Anakin and Vader two distinct people, and that Anakin died when he became Vader, Ben's statement is still a lie. If we accept that in Ben's mind Anakin and Vader were two distinct people, Darth Vader was never a young Jedi. Anakin Skywalker was a young Jedi. Darth Vader was never a pupil of
Obi-wan's. Only Anakin was a pupil of Obi-wan's. Ben is clearly saying that Darth Vader was a young Jedi who was his pupil. That just doesn't match with the idea that Ben considered them two separate people. You can even see Alec Guiness thinking before he makes the statement, "What should I tell him? How should I phrase this?"

The argument for me is whether a half truth constitutes a lie. I think it does. If someone intentionally holds something back or phrases something in a certain way in order to technically not say something inaccurate, I think it is a lie. It was a well meaning lie. Luke couldn't handle the truth at that time. But it was a lie.

[stillakid]

I have to agree with those who think Ben was lying. Let's look at what he said:

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

Let's look at this. If we accept stillakid's premise that Obi-wan considered Anakin and Vader two distinct people, and that Anakin died when he became Vader, Ben's statement is still a lie. If we accept that in Ben's mind Anakin and Vader were two distinct people, Darth Vader was never a young Jedi. Anakin Skywalker was a young Jedi. Darth Vader was never a pupil of
Obi-wan's. Only Anakin was a pupil of Obi-wan's. Ben is clearly saying that Darth Vader was a young Jedi who was his pupil. That just doesn't match with the idea that Ben considered them two separate people. You can even see Alec Guiness thinking before he makes the statement, "What should I tell him? How should I phrase this?"
.

I'll go with that. However I still disagree that it was a "lie," as you bring up in part II of your post. Omission of detail does not constitute a lie.

But with your above post in mind, that line of reasoning must be extended throughout everything that Obi Wan says and does in the saga. Meaning, all that talk about Yoda being his master was then a lie, according to your argument. How can we trust anything that the ol' codger says if we take the specifics of what he says and ignore the principle behind it?

[Beast]

Yay. It's become another "Stillakid Beats You Over the Head With His Opinion" Threads.

BTW, Yoda was Obi-Wan's Master.... as a Youngling. Master Yoda instructed Ben in the principals of how to use the force. Nothing in the Prequals negates this, no matter how many times you love to bring it up. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, and then taken under Qui-Gon's wing to complete his training.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

[Droid]

But with your above post in mind, that line of reasoning must be extended throughout everything that Obi Wan says and does in the saga. Meaning, all that talk about Yoda being his master was then a lie, according to your argument. How can we trust anything that the ol' codger says if we take the specifics of what he says and ignore the principle behind it?

I was addressing this from a purely original trilogy "point of view". In the original trilogy there is no reason to believe that Yoda was not Obi-wan's master. We both know that the original trilogy and the prequels can not be reconciled unless you look at everything from an incredibly strained "point of view."

And yes, I do think that Obi-wan in the original trilogy is a very human character. He bends the truth sometimes if he thinks it is for the common good, but we can trust what he says because the original trilogy leads us to believe that he is an imperfect, but very good man. He failed to train Anakin, thereby dooming the galaxy and exiling himself. Gosh, the story of Obi-wan's tragic failure and how a good man and friend like Anakin turned to evil would have made a really great story.

[Droid]

BTW, Yoda was Obi-Wan's Master.... as a Youngling. Master Yoda instructed Ben in the principals of how to use the force. Nothing in the Prequals negates this, no matter how many times you love to bring it up. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, and then taken under Qui-Gon's wing to complete his training.

I'm sure that stillakid is familiar with the prequel trilogy dialogue and expanded universe material that makes this distinction. I think his (and my) objection is that in the original trilogy the clear meaning of Obi-wan's statements is that Yoda was his master and that Qui-Gon was not.

[dindae]

Hey stillakid what's your take on the whole "These aren't the droids you're looking for" line?

[03springfield]

Omission of detail does not constitute a lie.

I wouldn't recommend testing that theory with wives, girlfriends or judges. Unless your last name is Clinton.

[Beast]

I'm sure that stillakid is familiar with the prequel trilogy dialogue and expanded universe material that makes this distinction. I think his (and my) objection is that in the original trilogy the clear meaning of Obi-wan's statements is that Yoda was his master and that Qui-Gon was not.

I still fail to see how this troubles some people. There is no reason for Ben to go into his backstory of how he was trained by Yoda, and then his training was finished by Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was dead, there was no way he was available to help Luke. So it makes no difference if he's not mentioned by Obi-Wan. Since he was informing Luke of who he had to seek out to complete his training. Hell, Obi-Wan never mentions Luke's mother either. Clearly since he never mentioned Luke having a mother, your logic says that she never existed and Luke and Leia are Clone Babies.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks