Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

[Droid]

Obi-wan talks about how Yoda was his master. And then the prequels suggest it was really someone else. If Obi-wan had suggested that Luke's mother was Mon Mothma or something, and then we found it was Padme, yes I would have a problem with that. I know, I know, "point of view." Well from my point of view the prequels have some sloppy writing if their goal was to match up with the clear meaning of dialogue in the original trilogy.

[stillakid]

Yay. It's become another "Stillakid Beats You Over the Head With His Opinion" Threads.

You continue to provide hours...er, um, seconds...of amusement.

BTW, Yoda was Obi-Wan's Master.... as a Youngling. Master Yoda instructed Ben in the principals of how to use the force. Nothing in the Prequals negates this, no matter how many times you love to bring it up. Obi-Wan was instructed by Yoda, and then taken under Qui-Gon's wing to complete his training.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

Ah, no. Again. There is nothing...let me say that again...NOTHING in the prequels that supports what you just wrote up there. You've gone and taken one scene with a bunch of kids and assumed that it extends to Obi and Yoda.

I still fail to see how this troubles some people. There is no reason for Ben to go into his backstory of how he was trained by Yoda, and then his training was finished by Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon was dead, there was no way he was available to help Luke. So it makes no difference if he's not mentioned by Obi-Wan. Since he was informing Luke of who he had to seek out to complete his training. Hell, Obi-Wan never mentions Luke's mother either. Clearly since he never mentioned Luke having a mother, your logic says that she never existed and Luke and Leia are Clone Babies.

MTFBWY and HH!!

Jar Jar Binks

It's troublesome (if we can really call it that) because it casts a dark shadow over Obi Wan that isn't really there. Just as the Greedo fires first fiasco entirely changed that character, implying that Obi Wan is a manipulative rat-fink liar changes the way the saga plays out. It is an unnecessary, and quite untrue supposition.

In 1980, there was no reason to go into the backstory of Qui Gon because there was no Qui Gon. I'd put a gazillion bucks on it that Qui Gon wasn't invented until sometime in the late '80s at the earliest. The dialogue in the OT fully supports this. Which is why the introduction of a new character in Episode I who runs around doing all the stuff that Obi Wan is supposed to be doing struck a lot of reasonable people as bizarre. "Where did this guy come from?" I heard time and again.

And your feeble attempt to use the "mother" as a parallel is just ridiculous and I suspect you know it. The situation is entirely different. Spirit Ben said that Yoda was his master. No others. Period. Why would he say such a thing if it wasn't true? To expedite the story? Perhaps, but then he shoulda said, "You will learn from Yoda, a Jedi Master who instructed me." But whateva, we've been down this road a few times and you'll obviously never get it. Enjoy the flick, Obi-Haters!

[mrpauldeeds]

He was just streching the truth. Luke wasnt ready to find out Vader was his father. SOme things are better off unknown.

[Omega Wren 99]

JarJarBinks is correct concerning the issue of Yoda training the child jedis and then mentors taking over.

STAR WARS databank:
"Yoda served an important role in the Jedi Council. When young Padawans began their first foray into Jedi training, they did so under Yoda's guidance. Many of the Republic's greatest Jedi trained under Yoda when they were children -- schooled in groupings called clans. Once the Jedi hopefuls grew older, approaching their teenage years, they would then be paired to an elder Jedi Knight or Master to continue training one-on-one. "

So when Obi-Wan says his statement about training just a good as Yoda... it might have very well meant the pre-conditioning that Yoda did in the Order as the second stage of training.

[Kyle Katarn]

He wasn't lying...he was telling the truth in another point of view. If he had told him the truth like we see it Luke would had been shocked...just imagine being a farmer and that they tell you that the most powerful man on the galaxy is your dad, and that he helped to kill many Jedi time ago...I would just poop in my boxers.

[Astromech]

Philisophical response:
To call it lying is rather harsh. Obi-Wan was a teacher of jedi padawans. and in that order, you are as much like a parent as you are a teacher. Often times a parent must lie or hide the truth to protect a child. Or in some ways, not permiss undesireable behavior by telling them that their missing parent was a certain way (ie, alcoholic, abusive, dark lord of the sith, etc...). I think this is what Ben was getting at from a philisophical standpoint. Doing the old: "Yeah I knew your old man, he was a great guy" line. Knowing the raw talent and power Luke posessed, I would have done the same thing because a Dark Lord of the Sith is not going to make a good parent, and abandoned kids always want to find their parents.

Real world response:
Lucas was flying by the seat of his pants making a movie that almost didn't happen and ran out of money. He hadn't thought that far ahead and had to do some fancy footwork to fix the problems.

[Kidhuman]

STAR WARS databank:
"Yoda served an important role in the Jedi Council. When young Padawans began their first foray into Jedi training, they did so under Yoda's guidance. Many of the Republic's greatest Jedi trained under Yoda when they were children -- schooled in groupings called clans. Once the Jedi hopefuls grew older, approaching their teenage years, they would then be paired to an elder Jedi Knight or Master to continue training one-on-one. "

.

The word many impllies most, but not all. Can we assume that Obi-Wan was trained, or was he left out of being trained by yoda. And when, o when did this data bank come out? I think it is safe to say that it came out well after the OT was made and done. There is still no decisive proof that Yoda trained Obi-Wan at any point.

[dindae]

that depends on if you want to count the books. In the Jedi Apprentice series Obi is trained by yoda with other kids until he is sent off and later become Qui-Gon's padawan.

[JediTricks]

So JJB, how did you vote, for "he's lying"? I'm not really clear on that from your first post there, you say he did but you give quite a reasonable explanation for why it's excusable and while I did specifically ask voters to remove any possible excuse issue from the voting, I also knew some couldn't.

Why this was ever a question boggles the mind. Old Ben wasn't "technically" lying or anything else underhanded. He told Luke the truth as he saw it: that the good man who was Anakin was killed by a bad man named Darth Vader. Now Ben did leave out that those two personalities happened to inhabit the same body, but as far as he (Ben) was concerned, it didn't matter.

It's a question because if nothing else Ben didn't have 2 pupils, "Anakin" and "Darth" and thus thoroughly up to that "certain point of view" thing. While I also believe Ben wasn't lying, I can see several different reasons why others might believe he was and certainly not a set-in-stone issue.


So here's a question, if Ben had been 100% honest about Anakin/Vader all along, would Luke even know who Darth Vader is and what is role in the Empire was?
"Your dad is still alive, he's now a cyborg going by the name 'Darth Vader'."
"Wow, really? Who's that? A cyborg huh? Sounds neat, does he have a drink dispenser built into his arm or something? And that's a funny name, I wonder if he's still working on freighters, cyborg limbs would help a lot there I bet."
"Dumb kid. C'mon robots, let's get out of here while he's still talking."



BTW, on the Yoda as Ben's Jedi instructor issue, since Lucas didn't have Qui-Gon in mind when even HE wrote the first few drafts of Episode I, I think the argument is moot, the character of Qui-Gon was thrown in hastily to replace the Obi-Wan character in that movie and therefore obviously isn't really meant to be Obi-Wan's main Jedi instructor. Not only that, if you look at the training Yoda gives Luke, it's beyond that Youngling training stuff, it's more akin to the same type of stuff that Qui-Gon was teaching Obi-Wan.

I'd put a gazillion bucks on it that Qui Gon wasn't invented until sometime in the late '80s at the earliest.

Mid-'90s actually, Lucas didn't start writing the Ep 1 script till then and Qui-Gon wasn't in the first drafts of that.

And when, o when did this data bank come out?

That DB entry came out in '02, specifically written about the scene in Ep 2.

[OC47150]

that depends on if you want to count the books. In the Jedi Apprentice series Obi is trained by yoda with other kids until he is sent off and later become Qui-Gon's padawan.

That's how I've intrepreted it. Yoda teaches pre-padawans the basics of the Force and Jedi skills before the padawan is assigned to a master.