View Poll Results: Did Obi-Wan Lie to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

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  • No, Obi-Wan was not lying.

    288 70.76%
  • Yes, Obi-Wan was lying.

    119 29.24%
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  1. #41

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks
    That DB entry came out in '02, specifically written about the scene in Ep 2.

    SO, it was put out in 02, but before then the story remained the same. To me it was put there to cover Porgies butt.
    thanks Chux Turbo LBC Bobafrett Mtriv73 Rjarvis JF96 JT JMG FB Rogue2 Tycho Slicker Deoxy Caesar JontheJedi JJReason Brandon Solo JMS UK for great deals.
    SSG Pro Football Pick em and Bowl Pick em Champ 2006. 2007 NCAA Bracket Champ
    #24 - Gone but not forgotten

  2. #42

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks
    So here's a question, if Ben had been 100% honest about Anakin/Vader all along, would Luke even know who Darth Vader is and what is role in the Empire was?
    "Your dad is still alive, he's now a cyborg going by the name 'Darth Vader'."
    "Wow, really? Who's that? A cyborg huh? Sounds neat, does he have a drink dispenser built into his arm or something? And that's a funny name, I wonder if he's still working on freighters, cyborg limbs would help a lot there I bet."
    "Dumb kid. C'mon robots, let's get out of here while he's still talking."
    I like your version better.

  3. #43

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Based on the trilogy, I would have said "no", he was not lying to luke, but firmly believed what he was saying.
    If I were to accept the prequels as canon, however, I would think Obi Wan is a pathological fibber, or in ANH he is simply too senile to remember his tumultuous relationship with the arrogant punk as it actually was.

  4. #44

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Quote Originally Posted by kidhuman
    SO, it was put out in 02, but before then the story remained the same. To me it was put there to cover Porgies butt.
    It's incredibly common to have the site's official DB entries changed to reflect the "new revisioning" from a new film, I've come across several while trying to drum up info for threads here only to discover that what I had read has now been totally changed. It's kinda why I stopped using the DB entries completely over the last year, they're too unreliable for my tastes.

    Looks like we have a solid count, 3/4ths of us feel Obi-Wan isn't lying while another quarter feel he is. I get the feeling that 1/4 is a little low, that some folks felt it was lying but was justified, there are a lot of posts here suggesting that, but in any event I guess Obi-Wan wins the day again.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  5. #45

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    My two cents:

    From my own "... certain point of view..." Obi Wan Kenobi LIED, LIED, LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is real simple:

    Did Obi-Wan Kenobi know (at the moment that Luke asked his question) that Anakin Skywalker (physically) became Darth Vader?

    Ummm, yeah he DID!!!!!!!!

    Therefore, when asked by Luke, "How did my father die?", and he responds that his father was killed by ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL known as Darth Vader, this was simply NOT TRUE!!!

    We can split hairs all day and night about the "philisophical question" of "... the good man..." who was Luke's dad being "... destroyed..." at the moment that he fell to the dark side of the Force.

    The bottom line is there ARE times when leaving out specific VITAL details of an anecdote amount to an innacurate and MISLEADING picture. In short: a LIE!!!!! This is what Obi Wan did.

    The issue of this fib being necessary for Luke to hear at that stage of his development is a DIFFERENT matter altogether, people. I agree with many of you that the full truth at THAT moment probably would NOT be the best thing for Luke to hear. That doesn't change the fact that Obi-Wan KNOWINGLY misled Luke!

    But on the question of Obi-Wan's initial statement, I suspect that Luke himself (if he really existed as a real person) would consider what Obi Wan told him to be a LIE!! Why else would he have such an accusatory tone with the specter of Kenobi when he confronts him on "truth" of this question?

    Now all of this being said, I acknowledge that this issue, to some degree, is "interpretive". I've ALWAYS marveled at Alec Guiness' performance during that scene in A New Hope. To ME, he played that moment as though Luke's question caught him off guard, and his lie was a "comfortable" one that he produced on the cuff.

    (In the context of the whole saga) Guiness performed that scene as if Kenobi had grown to think of Anakin (SPIRITUALLY) as another person from Vader. Observe the wistful, affectionate smile on his face as he speaks of Anakin as "... the best starpilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior..." and as a "... good friend..." Minutes later, observe the contempt and heartbreak that he exhibits as he speaks of Darth Vader.

    Clearly, his lie FIT within his own philisophical Jedi belief, so he sold it with conviction. PHILISOPHICALLY, and SPIRITUALLY, he believed it himself. But it ALSO should be noted that he INTELLECTUALLY understood the "concrete, nuts and bolts" TRUTH that Anakin and Darth are PHISICALLY the same individual. That made his statement to Luke untrue.

    In my opinion, to suggest that Obi-Wan did NOT lie about this issue suggests that he is somehow an unbalanced, pathological dreamer who is not playing with a full deck. I just don't see him that way.

    Just because he had a spritual belief that allowed him to see Anakin and Darth and two seperate individuals, doesn't mean he was oblivious to the PHYSICAL truth of the matter that they were in-fact the same man.

    In order for Obi-Wan's statement to Luke NOT to be an intentional lie, he would have to be UNAWARE of that physical truth. And we know this to NOT be the case.

    -Roberto DARKLORD Williams
    -Roberto DARKLORD Williams

  6. #46

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    so he sold it with conviction.
    He didn't "sell" anything. He simply told Luke what he believed to be truth. Saying "sell" like that denotes a connotation implying a manipulative scenario, not unlike a car-salesman who knows that the lemon in front of you won't last beyond the parking lot. That's not what Obi was saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    PHILISOPHICALLY, and SPIRITUALLY, he believed it himself. But it ALSO should be noted that he INTELLECTUALLY understood the "concrete, nuts and bolts" TRUTH that Anakin and Darth are PHISICALLY the same individual.
    There's no argument there, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    That made his statement to Luke untrue.
    ...this isn't true. Just because there is a difference in the tangible, doesn't negate Obi's philosophical belief. That overrode the physical for Ben which is the point of view he placed more of a priority on at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    In my opinion, to suggest that Obi-Wan did NOT lie about this issue suggests that he is somehow an unbalanced, pathological dreamer who is not playing with a full deck. I just don't see him that way.
    That's a bit harsh. But the antithesis of what you're suggesting is that Ben is a manipulative ratfink liar. While I don't agree at all with the "full deck" conclusion, it's more appropriate than Ben being manipulative ratfink liar. There is no evidence anywhere else in the saga of Ben being such an evil creep. As far as being off his rocker, he seems to be pretty coherent throughout ANH so being mentally unstable doesn't play out either.

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    Just because he had a spritual belief that allowed him to see Anakin and Darth and two seperate individuals, doesn't mean he was oblivious to the PHYSICAL truth of the matter that they were in-fact the same man.
    True, and if that were the only issue at hand, then Ben could be considered a liar. But as stated, he took the higher road and realized that personality, more than physicality, makes the man. With "the good man" gone forever and Vader in his place, Anakin simply was dead and not coming back. It's this assumption on Obi Wan's part which sets up Luke's struggle to find out if "there is still good in him." Without Ben's fundamental belief as the opposing point of view toward the basic story conflict, Luke's epic struggle would have less resonance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    In order for Obi-Wan's statement to Luke NOT to be an intentional lie, he would have to be UNAWARE of that physical truth. And we know this to NOT be the case.
    And that's just not true for the reasons I stated above. He can be aware of the physicality of the situation yet also believe fully that the personality is dead. They are not mutually exclusive.

    ...in my opinion.

  7. #47

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Some interesting points there Stillakid.

    I'd like to respond, if I may:

    You say that the word "sell" “… denotes a connotation implying a manipulative scenario…” I contend that Obi-Wan DID manipulate Luke by telling him that his father was “murdered” when in fact he was still physically alive. And as I said before, judging by Luke’s agonized / accusatory tone at the close of The Empire Strikes Back and in Return of the Jedi, I’d say HE felt pretty manipulated by what he was told as well.

    In my opinion, to make a statement that is only PARTIALLY true (even as the speaker sees it) IS "selling" something. In that scenario, the speaker must KNOWINGLY WITHOLD information as he makes his statement. The speaker must ALSO present his statement as if NOTHING else PERTINENT remains to be told. This could (and often DOES) give an inaccurate and downright UN-TRUTHFUL slant to the information that he does present.


    I agree with you Stillakid when you write that “… Just because there is a difference in the tangible, doesn't negate Obi's philosophical belief…” In fact, I never implied that Obi-Wan's knowledge of the tangible SHOULD have negated his philisophical beliefs. I'm only saying that one in the ABSENCE of the other is NOT a full, balanced, TRUTHFUL picture. And in this particular instance, the two beliefs ARE INDEED mutually exclusive!!

    If one is to believe (the statement) that the vile, selfish, angry individual known as Darth Vader "… murdered…" the noble jedi knight Anakin Skywalker, that LANGUAGE (to my mind) EXCLUDES a reference to a SPIRITUAL death. Even religious texts such as the Holy Bible or the Tora define "murder" as an act by ONE individual that ends the PHYSICAL LIFE of ANOTHER individual. And, of course, Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader was NOT physically dead. A more accurate (truthful) word might have been "consumed" or even "possessed".

    If, on the other hand, one is to wholy embrace the (truthful statement) that Anakin Skywalker "succumbed" to the Dark Side of the Force and spiritually "transformed" into Darth Vader, that LANGUAGE (to my mind) EXCLUDES a reference to a PHYSICAL death. THAT language points ONLY to a man's spiritual death and re-emergence as a different personality.

    Since it is TRUE that Obi-Wan Kenobi KNEW BOTH of these things to be true (RE: Anakin / Darth is ALIVE - Darth spiritually consumes Anakin), AND
    Since it is TRUE that Obi Wan is NOT pathological or mentally unbalanced, THEN...

    It MUST follow that Obi-Wan KNOWINGLY neglected to mention part of the FULL TRUTH in his statement to Luke. Futhermore, he used language (re: "... mudered...") that strongly suggested a type of death that simply did NOT occur (physical). And he philosophically implied a death that, frankly, Luke WASN'T asking about (spiritual).

    Were his intentions noble? Undoubtedly.
    Did he do the "right thing" at that moment in telling Luke what he told him?
    Probably.

    Was it a lie?
    Yes. A "white lie" perhaps, but STILL a lie!

    I've never suggested that Obi-Wan Kenobi is an “evil creep” or a "rat-fink" liar, Stillakid. He’s just a gentle compassionate liar.

    And, in my original posting, I believe I actually DISCOUNTED the possibility of him being "... mentally unstable..." It was my contention that ONLY by being mentally unstable, like a paranoid schizophrenic, (which I believe Obi-Wan is NOT) could he only PERIODICALLY REMEMBER the basic truth that Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are physically the same individual.

    IF he were INSANE (as a result of, say, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) and IF he could only PERIODICALLY remember this little nugget of truth about Darth / Anakin , and
    IF at the moment of his statement to Luke he was having one of his memory "blackouts", THEN technically he would NOT be lieing because he would NOT know any better.

    Since he is NOT crazy, and since he did NOT forget this vital piece of information, that means he KNOWINGLY withheld a BIG PART of the truth... a truth even as HE saw it!!! Furthermore, he designed the LANGUAGE of his statement to Luke to imply that Anakin and Darth VAder are physically two different people (which they are NOT). Give me a break!! ALL of this, by DEFINITION is a lie. Well-intentioned, but still a LIE!

    You say that Obi-Wan Kenobi "...took the higher road and realized that personality, more than physicality, makes the man..."

    Perhaps, but personality does NOT make the WHOLE man. Physicality is a big part of a man too. And Obi-Wan knew this! Besides, Luke’s straight-forward question was not an inquiry about “personality “ or “spritual” matters, for pete’s sake. In lieu of learning that his father was a “… great pilot… a cunning warrior…” , and a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, Luke just wanted to know HOW his father physically DIED. Period.

    … in my opinion
    -Roberto DARKLORD Williams

  8. #48

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Quote Originally Posted by DARKLORD_67
    If, on the other hand, one is to wholy embrace the (truthful statement) that Anakin Skywalker "succumbed" to the Dark Side of the Force and spiritually "transformed" into Darth Vader, that LANGUAGE (to my mind) EXCLUDES a reference to a PHYSICAL death. THAT language points ONLY to a man's spiritual death and re-emergence as a different personality.
    ...
    It MUST follow that Obi-Wan KNOWINGLY neglected to mention part of the FULL TRUTH in his statement to Luke. Futhermore, he used language (re: "... mudered...") that strongly suggested a type of death that simply did NOT occur (physical). And he philosophically implied a death that, frankly, Luke WASN'T asking about (spiritual).

    ...Perhaps, but personality does NOT make the WHOLE man. Physicality is a big part of a man too. And Obi-Wan knew this! Besides, Luke’s straight-forward question was not an inquiry about “personality “ or “spritual” matters, for pete’s sake. In lieu of learning that his father was a “… great pilot… a cunning warrior…” , and a Jedi Knight who fought in the Clone Wars, Luke just wanted to know HOW his father physically DIED. Period.
    And therein lies (no pun intended) the problem. All Luke asked was, "How did my father die?" Well, from Obi Wan's point of view, Luke's father, for all intents and purposes, died the moment that Darth Vader took hold. Ergo, not a lie.

    So, given that, it has also been argued that Ben still lied because he also said that "a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine..." implying that Darth Vader was Ben's pupil at a time when Anakin was supposed to be. But as we're seeing in the Prequels, Anakin is a scum bucket waaaaaaaaay before ever donning the mask and taking the name of Darth Vader. It wouldn't be out of the question to suggest that, again, for all intents and purposes Anakin really was dead sometime in the midst of AOTC and was Darth Vader even without the name and the mask. 20 years of hindsight and introspection about the events of that time very possibly could lead an old man to realize what happened and how he missed Anakin's fall. So by the time Luke wanders in asking the question, "How did my father die?" it is obvious to Ben that Anakin the person died long before he ever had the duel in ROTS. From the outside, from Luke's and the audience's point of view, it might appear to be a manipulative lie. But remember, Ben definitively said, "Luke, a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." And Ben's explanation in ANH was indeed from his very own understanding of what happened to Anakin...not the audience's or even how Luke might interpret it later. Those reactions have nothing to do with how BEN sees the situation. It truly is not a lie, rather it is his point of view. How we and Luke feel about it is immaterial.

  9. #49

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    Ummm... No.

    It seems to me (and I think to MOST reasonable people) that the matter of someone's (physical) DEATH is really NOT debatable. One is either dead or NOT dead. There is no in-between.

    Obi-Wan's mumbo jumbo answer that was explained away two films later as his "... certain point of view..." is nothing but a bunch of shuckin' and jiving, and hokey double-talk!!

    If Obi-Wan somehow did NOT know that Luke was asking about his father's PHYSICAL state, then I could see there being room for interpretation. But that's just NOT the case.

    Any reasonable person (including Obi-Wan himself) knows that physicality was specifically what Luke was asking about. I find this to be greatest liklihood, especially at a time in the galaxy when "spirituality" and "philosophy" are virtually DEAD concepts and what is emphasized and universally embraced is only the tangible, concrete, and physical.

    If Luke were raised during the spiritual and philosophical times of the Jedi order, AND within their midst (not on some backwater planet on the outer rim), then his question (I suppose) might be interpreted in various ways. But he was a simple kid, leading a simple life, on a simple planet. And he asked a simple question ABOUT HIS FATHER'S PHYSICAL STATE.

    Obi Wan is NO IDIOT! He KNEW what Luke was refering to when he asked his question. It's probably the main reason he looked so uncomfortable before his response. And when he did respond, he chose to IGNORE the obvious intent of Luke's question. He offered an interpretive answer to an non-interpretive question.
    And his interpretive answer FLAT-OUT contradicts the truthful answer to the intended question. The language he INTENTIONALLY chose to use implied to LUKE that Anakin was PHYSICALLY DEAD when he was NOT. This fallacy was what Obi-Wan INTENDED for Luke to believe.

    "A young Jedi named Darth Vader... betrayed and murdered your father"

    No he didn't!!!!!!!! His other personality may have "betrayed" him, but Anakin wasn't "murdered"!!! And since the "murder" portion of his answer is the DIRECT response to Luke's intended question, then Obi-Wan WASN'T TELLING THE TRUTH!!

    Anakin was "possessed", "consumed", "replaced", or (as Obi-Wan put it in EP 6 when he finally fessed up) "... BECAME Darth Vader..."

    I'm sorry, but in MY book, to BECOME something is a far cry from being MURDERED by it !!!!! The two CAN'T simultaneously be true!

    He lied.
    Last edited by DARKLORD_67; 01-09-2005 at 04:18 AM.
    -Roberto DARKLORD Williams

  10. #50

    Re: Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

    But in a scitzo's mind, the person known as Anakin ceased to exist. Even Vader said that name means nothing to me. Therefore he indeed "murdered" Anakin and became Darth Vader.
    Last edited by Kidhuman; 01-09-2005 at 10:14 PM.
    thanks Chux Turbo LBC Bobafrett Mtriv73 Rjarvis JF96 JT JMG FB Rogue2 Tycho Slicker Deoxy Caesar JontheJedi JJReason Brandon Solo JMS UK for great deals.
    SSG Pro Football Pick em and Bowl Pick em Champ 2006. 2007 NCAA Bracket Champ
    #24 - Gone but not forgotten

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